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CNN Live Event/Special
Donald Trump's Hush Money Trial; Michael Cohen Takes the Stand on Trump's Hush Money Trial; Michael Cohen Now Testifies on the Account of Karen McDougal. Aired 10:30-11a ET
Aired May 13, 2024 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:30:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Essentially, Hoffinger confirms with Cohen that Pecker, via AMI, executed that plan.
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Kaitlan makes an important point. If prosecutors really have buttoned up already, most of what you're going to hear from Cohen, either through documents or other witnesses up until about 2017. And that's when the direct examination is really going to be make or break for this case.
Now, Cohen confirms he previewed some "National Enquirer" stories about Trump's political opponents. So there, David Pecker, Michael Cohen, trying to use this platform to damage his opponents. Among them, he says, were stories about Hillary Clinton wearing very thick glasses. Some allegations that she had some brain injuries.
Now, David Pecker also testified that they would have run negative stories about the Clintons anyway, because they sold well. But Cohen confirms that AMI would sometimes send over covers to him before they were published. But getting through all of this, again, much of this has been supported, corroborated by other witnesses. What is not, though, is that direct link between Trump and falsifying business records.
COOPER: Cohen said he would immediately show it to Mr. Trump. So, he knew that David was loyal, was on board, he was actually doing it, Cohen says of Pecker and Trump. David Pecker has testified before about the importance of the covers for him, and Jeffrey Toobin had written an article about David Pecker and "National Enquirer" for "The New Yorker" back then.
And that was very much all Pecker really cared about. He didn't care what was inside the magazine. He cared just about the cover, the impact it had on -- right at the checkout counter. Cohen said that when he'd show Trump the coverage, Trump was pleased and would call it fantastic.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE AND CNN CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: It also speaks to how Michael Cohen occupied a singular presence in Trump's orbit in the sense of what Trump would go to him for and what he expected Michael Cohen to handle, which were negative stories, particularly about women, as Michael Cohen just noted there. And I think that could potentially, you know, obviously we have no idea how the jury will interpret any of this. Maybe they'll believe nothing Michael Cohen says, maybe they'll believe everything he says. But it is important that they are kind of establishing that this was Michael Cohen's role. That this is what he did for Donald Trump.
And so, his testimony, you know, can speak to this. This is interesting, though. Michael Cohen has not yet looked at the jury. He's answering questions directly to the prosecutor. I'm not a prosecutor, but I think you would as a prosecutor want Michael Cohen to look at the jury to kind of establish this relationship with them.
As Keith Davidson, when he -- Stormy Daniels' attorney who negotiated this deal with Michael Cohen, when he was testifying, his entire body was turned towards the jury, away from the prosecutors almost, as he was looking at them and directly answering their questions. It's notable that Michael Cohen is not doing that because he's probably the most important witness who needs to develop that trust and that relationship with the jury.
REID: This is weird because the jury is also the closest, really, to him in that courtroom.
COLLINS: They're this close.
REID: They're right to his left.
COLLINS: Yes.
REID: As close as Kaitlan is to me. The fact that he's not looking at them, it's weird. It could be that he's uncomfortable. It could be that he wasn't coached or that he was concerned. So, he's coached to look at a prosecutor. Now, prosecutors are showing an e-mail from Cohen to AMI's Barry Levine, Dylan Howard from 2016 -- January 2016.
But the fact that he's not looking at them at all, that is really unusual. But interesting to see after the break, if that changes. If prosecutors coach him to start looking at the jury, because he has to earn their trust in order for prosecutors to succeed.
Levine saying, as our readers can't get enough of Mr. Trump, we are repackaging and repurposing past materials from our files.
COLLINS: This isn't normal, by the way. I mean, I know that we've talked about this in the whole checkbook journalism phenomenon, as some of these witnesses have called it. But to have the "National Enquirer" send over covers to the Trump campaign, to have -- to Donald Trump's personal attorney, I should say, not someone who officially works for the campaign, to have them review it, and for Trump himself to personally review it.
COOPER: It's remarkable.
COLLINS: It doesn't happen.
COOPER: Yes, the judge -- COLLINS: I'm sure every political candidate out there who's ever had
a negative story written about them is looking at this, you know, befuddled, because this is not normal in any shape or measure.
COOPER: Adding additional material, of course, Levine says of a positive nature, continuing in the -mail, saying that even if they recycle old stories and add additional material as long as it was a positive nature. I mean, the relationship clearly was mutually beneficial. It helped newsstand sales for "National Enquirer", and it certainly helped Trump and the campaign.
The question is, even if jurors believe -- don't like Michael Cohen or think he is, you know, doing dirty work and, you know, ethically challenged. The fact that he was so close to Donald Trump and Trump embraced him for this very reason and used him for this very reason, you know, will that rub off on their perception of Donald Trump? And, you know, he worked -- Michael Cohen worked for Donald Trump. It wasn't an accident.
REID: Yes, the --
COOPER: Prosecution is moving through Cohen's testimony slowly and methodically.
REID: That might build some empathy for him, perhaps, but remember eventually, Trump spurns him and then Cohen turns on him. And for six or seven years makes his entire identity attacking the defendant. I think that is the thing that prosecutors need to get around. Why should we trust someone who, again, names their book revenge? How do we believe that they're not a liar out for revenge against the defendant?
[10:35:00]
COLLINS: The other interesting thing -- now they're moving on to the Trump Tower doorman story, which was false, but AMI still paid, I believe it was $30,000 to capture that story. So, the doorman who had, you know, enormous penalties if he did say it to someone else, I think millions of dollars. They're moving on to basically the pattern here. The other thing though that as they're slowly and methodically going through this, I mean, they want the jury to hear every detail from Michael Cohen himself that was corroborated by others.
When I was watching Michael Cohen's testimony over the weekend, one thing that he testified to about the home equity line of credit that he ultimately used and hid from his wife to pay Stormy Daniels, the $130,000, is he talked about the conversations he had with Allen Weisselberg where Weisselberg was suggesting -- and Donald Trump, you know, could he get a, a free golf membership? Is there some way that he -- or use a club or a venue to rent it out, to find any other way to basically where Michael Cohen could get paid $130,000 and use that?
And it just speaks to the levels of hoops that they jumped through to try to pay her off without there being -- without it being traceable.
COOPER: Yes. COLLINS: I think that will be something key that Michael Cohen has testified is that they purposely were trying to avoid having a money trail that could have been really useful in this testimony.
COOPER: Michael Cohen is saying that he went to Trump immediately to advise Trump that there was a story because it was a negative story for him. This is the doorman story -- or the picture of the doorman, just for those who are curious to put a face to who they are talking to -- talking about. But again, this is a story that turned out to be false, about a child born out of wedlock. That's the doorman there. He was paid off --
COLLINS: But also, look how --
COOPER: -- some $30,000. He told me to make sure that the story doesn't get out. You handle it, Cohen -- Trump -- says Trump told him.
COLLINS: The false story got $30,000. Look at what Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels got. They got much higher six figure amounts, which also speaks to, you know, what they were willing to pay and how they viewed these stories and whether or not they were truthful.
COOPER: And again, Michael Cohen being the person who would handle all this for Trump, they were going to pay $30,000. They were executing an agreement with the doorman in order to obtain the life rights to the story. The whole idea of obtaining the life rights, that's part of the catch and kill. You obtain this -- something that the "National Enquirer" did. You obtain the rights to it and then you don't publish the story. Cohen says he was in contact with David Pecker and Dylan Howard about this story.
REID: And this clearly speaks to intent. A desire to suppress negative stories ahead of the election. Knowledge that anything like this could hurt him with voters. He wants to win the White House. That is the intent behind this catch and kill deal, along with the Karen McDougal one.
Things get a little more complicated, though, with Stormy Daniels because, of course, AMI stops footing the bill. And then it's on Michael Cohen to facilitate this payment. And that's where, of course, we find ourselves today in court.
So, this is all pretty well trotted ground in terms of this trial. What happened here when Cohen got updates from the AMI team, he said he would update Trump immediately. Again, going back to the prosecution's point that Trump was always in the loop. He always knew what was going on, a micromanager to the max.
COLLINS: And Michael Cohen has testified this -- about this for other situations. I mean, remember when -- what Michael Cohen lied to Congress about was Trump Tower -- the Trump organization and their attempt to do business in Russia. And Michael Cohen testified that Donald Trump personally instructed him to lie about it because Donald Trump himself was lying about it publicly because Donald Trump didn't think he would win the election and he wanted to still pursue those business deals. And Michael Cohen says that, you know, on the campaign trails, they were walking to the motorcade or leaving the rally stage that Trump would ask him for updates on it. It's similar to this, where Michael Cohen was the one expected to personally brief Donald Trump, not in writing necessarily, but often in person and certainly on the phone about these matters.
COOPER: And Jake, Cohen is confirming that the idea was to take the story off the market. This is the story told by the doorman, Jake.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND HOST, "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER": Yes, and it turned out to be false. But something that's very fascinating about all of this, let me bring in the political side of my table here. So, Barry Levine who was the executive editor of the "National Enquirer" is being cited in this testimony.
Levine says in a text -- or an e-mail, rather, in January 2016, as our readers can't get enough of Mr. Trump, we are repackaging and repurposing past material from our files and adding additional material, of course, also of a positive nature. Cohen in court is right now saying, I reviewed this is about the other story to ensure that Mr. Trump was fully protected. I also asked them to send it to me so I could show Mr. Trump it was being taken care of.
What's interesting to me about the Barry Levine thing is because for this "United States of Scandal" series I did for CNN and it's now on Max. Barry Levine is in the John Edwards episode. Because Barry Levine was a pit bull with the John Edwards story. In September 2007, "National Enquirer" put out the note that they are going to -- they're seeking information.
[10:40:00]
Somebody calls in and says, Rielle Hunter is hinting that she's having an affair with this senator who's running for president. Barry Levine Googles it, sees that John and Elizabeth Edwards have one of the most admired marriages in politics. And from then on, he is a pit bull to expose John Edwards as the fraud that he was.
Cohen is right now saying that he recommended removing an end date from the agreement and to make it in perpetuity. This is the doorman lie. Barry Levine -- Cohen turns to the jury explaining that means it's forever. They own the story forever. It can never come out.
Barry Levine had the complete opposite reaction to John -- to Donald Trump's stories. Whatever you think of the "National Enquirer" paying for stories and the kind of journalism they do, checkbook journalism, you know, digging through trash cans, whatever they were right and they were way ahead of everybody on the John Edwards story, and John Edwards was exposed for what he was.
They were doing the exact opposite thing here for Donald Trump. They were hiding stories that they knew to be true. I -- you know, buying the story for the doorman. That's fake. I mean, I don't -- that doesn't really boil my blood because it was a lie. So, who cares really? And it's a shame that famous people have to pay off liars who have bogus stories.
But the idea that the "National Enquirer" existed to protect Donald Trump is remarkable and not -- and I don't know how much people out there understand what journalism is supposed to be and everything, but like, it's not supposed to be that. You're not supposed to pick and choose, and you're not supposed to be like, oh, Donald Trump's a good copy.
And Barry Pecker -- I mean, David Pecker and he are good friends. Therefore, we're going to go after every other single person making up stories about Hillary Clinton's glasses, et cetera, et cetera. Making up stories about Ted Cruz's dad. Making up stories about Marco Rubio, et cetera. And just -- and burying stories that are true about Donald Trump, it's really, really unbelievable.
JOHN KING, CNN "INSIDE POLITICS" ANCHOR: And at the front end, if you will, of a conversation that we have all the time now about American politics and the Trump effect, and that if you look at Fox News, or you look at Newsmax, or you look at OAN, there are this cable or streaming services that are totally pro-Trump where Donald Trump could do no wrong.
Here, very back -- right at the very beginning, you have sort of an old school publication. And to the point, I think it was Kaitlan making the point, that Donald Trump has an 80's mindset. I think sometimes we should all have an open mindset and the idea that someone says, how does Donald Trump have this small-town appeal? How does Donald Trump winning out in rural America?
Well, as you travel and you go into small stores in rural America, it's not just the bodegas in New York city. If you're in a small grocery store out in small town America, the "National Enquirer" is right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's in the grocery store.
KING: A lot of people are not watching cable television or going online every day or get it -- now, everyone gets the news on their phone. Even back in 2015, 2016, less so.
KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, that was barely the case.
TAPPER: Michael Cohen says that he went to Trump to tell him this agreement was completed. This is the one to pay off the guy who had the bogus story about the kid, that Donald Trump fathered, out of his marriage. Not a true story. He bought it for $30,000, or the "National Enquirer" did 30 grand in perpetuity, it disappeared. Cohen said Trump responded at the time, that's great. Kasie.
HUNT: Right, well, and, you know, I think they're establishing here. Obviously, this story is different from the stories where there was more truth established. Karen McDougal --
TAPPER: Such as Karen McDougal, which is the prosecution is --
HUNT: -- which where we're moving. But the --
TAPPER: -- moving to right now.
HUNT: But the point of it was to show how the interaction would work between Michael Cohen and Donald Trump. And one other thing that I think is interesting here as, again, to look ahead, what they have to do is tie these two crimes together. Not just that the business records were falsified, but they were falsified in the service of -- in under New York State, the way that they wrote that law defrauding the voters of New York State in an attempt to commit a second crime. That's what would make this a felony, right?
And they're talking about this very much in the context of the campaign. So, the testimony that Cohen is offering is saying, well, "National Enquirer" was into this because they were covering the campaign. That was kind of all -- everything that was related to it was about his election campaign.
TAPPER: Right, and that's --
HUNT: I think it's absolutely beside that.
TAPPER: -- and that's what Michael Cohen is saying right now.
HUNT: Right.
TAPPER: They have moved on to Karen McDougal. Cohen is asked about when did he initially hear about Karen McDougal, He sits in his -- he shifts in his seat and he exhaled slightly. He said he got a call from somebody at American Media Incorporated, whether it was David Pecker, the CEO, or Dylan Howard, the editor in chief of the "National Enquirer". Asked what impact the story would have on Trump's presidential campaign.
This is 1998 Playmate of the Year, Karen McDougal, alleging a long term, over many months, relationship, affair with Donald Trump. Donald -- what kind of impact would it have on the presidential campaign? Michael Cohen says, "Significant." Cohen says, he alerted Trump, "Immediately after I got off the phone with AMI." He went to Trump's office and said, hey, boss. I got to talk to you.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, now we're getting to the heart of the matter. A couple really interesting pieces of testimony that just recently happened. One, Michael Cohen testified that when Trump decided he was going to run for office, Trump said to Michael Cohen, there's going to be a lot of women coming forward. And Michael Cohen testified, we never actually paid to catch and kill until after he announced his candidacy.
[10:45:00]
And one thing that the prosecution is doing here is they are linking up, not explicitly, but they're hoping the jury can follow along. They're linking up what Michael Cohen's saying about how this all worked to prior testimony. That the jury's heard, primarily, from David Pecker. Secondarily from Keith Davidson, who represented Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels.
I think this part of the case, by the way, has come in quite cleanly and clearly. The idea that they were paying to kill stories because of the campaign. The accounting part on the front end, I think, is the trickier part, but this part to me has come in quite clearly.
TAPPER: So, Cohen says he goes to Trump's office. He says, do you know who Karen McDougal is? Trump says, she's really beautiful. That's Cohen says -- Cohen says, that that's her response. Cohen testifies, I said, OK, but there's a story that's right now being shopped. Trump said, make sure it doesn't get released. So, Cohen takes that to mean they needed to acquire the story, which is the catch and kill aspect of this.
Former Trump attorney, Tim Parlatore and former Michael Cohen attorney, Lanny Davis are back here with us. Trump's still sitting back with his eyes closed in courtroom. Again, we should remind people, Tim Parlatore, paying hush money is not illegal in any sense.
TIM PARLATORE, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Right.
TAPPER: But what they are establishing here, a pattern that they hope to establish with Stormy Daniels. Cohen says that he would communicate with Pecker by phone, text, e-mail, app. He confirms that when he said app, he means Signal. So, this is relevant to the case the prosecutors are trying to make.
PARLATORE: It is, and they're trying to cut down the ability to, you know, to bring in a John Edwards style defense of, oh, this was to protect Melania as opposed to help the campaign. And it is effective for that particular defense, maybe not necessarily for, you know, his knowledge of, you know, what they did in the books.
One thing that Cohen said here that I found very interesting was that he ran to tell him about, you know, that the deal was done and also to get credit for it. And that's something that I had seen a lot, is that people around Donald Trump, they will do things that he didn't necessarily ask for to please him. And they will bring it to them and they will want to be the first one to come in and tell them something so that they can get credit for it.
And I think that that's part of the issue here is that, you know, where Michael Cohen may have been doing a lot of things on his own, but now he's coming in saying, oh, yes, it was asked for.
TAPPER: Yes.
PARLATORE: Whereas maybe at the time he just assumed, well, that's what would make him happy.
TAPPER: And that's going to be the crux of the prosecution's case.
PARLATORE: Exactly.
TAPPER: They have to prove it. Cohen says he updated Trump frequently. Cohen says he used Signal to communicate, that's the encrypted app, to communicate about Karen McDougal, "Again, because of the nature of the issue, to make sure that it remained private."
The jury is now seeing text messages between Michael Cohen, Trump's lawyer and fixer, and Dylan Howard, the editor in chief -- former editor in chief of the "National Enquirer", in June 2016. Cohen is now reading through these texts.
And I'm going to be interrupting you when they come in, Lanny Davis. But tell me, like, is there proof that Michael Cohen did what he did when it came to Stormy Daniels at Trump's behest and with Trump's knowledge, and not just on his own and then running back for approval? On June 16th, 2016, Dylan Howard, the editor in chief of the "National Enquirer" texts Cohen, meeting will be on Monday, per their terms, Dylan -- for their terms. Signed, Dylan. Cohen responds, understood. Thank you for everything. In any case, Lanny.
LANNY DAVIS, MICHAEL COHEN'S FORMER ATTORNEY: Well, I'm trying to remember how much he will testify about what he told Mr. Trump about Stormy Daniels. But one thing that is coming through as a pattern in all the testimony, not just Cohen today, but others, is that is the micromanager, Donald Trump.
Everyone that I've spoken to since I started representing Michael Cohen remarked about what a micromanager. Even signing every check in the Oval Office, his assistant, remarked that there is really very little that happened that didn't go through Mr. Trump and that he didn't micromanage. So, at some point in time, the jury is going to start to think, everything that went on here, Michael Cohen checked with Donald Trump, and Donald Trump did that with everyone else. So, it's not just Michael Cohen's word they have to believe, it's his pattern of conduct.
TAPPER: Well, and speaking of which, so on June 16, 2016, this is what were the texts that are being -- and e-mail messages that are being introduced in court right now. Dylan Howard, the editor in chief of the "National Enquirer", texts Michael Cohen, meeting will be on Monday per their terms. And Cohen explains, this is about meeting with Karen McDougal and her people.
Dylan Howard, who's the, editor in chief of the "National Enquirer", is going to meet with Karen McDougal and her people on their terms for whatever they want to do in terms of selling their story. Michael Cohen responds, understood. Thank you for everything. Michael Cohen then tests -- texts Keith Schiller on that same day, June 16th, 2016. Keith Schiller was Trump's bodyguard, his security guy.
[10:50:00]
Michael Cohen texts Schiller, can we speak? I need you. Tim Parlatore, what about the case that Lanny's making about the micromanaging Donald Trump, which has been a theme throughout a lot of this testimony?
PARLATORE: It is a theme. And I think that Lanny just actually highlighted the weakness in the government's case. There is no direct evidence other than Michael Cohen's word, that Donald Trump asked or knew about any of these things.
TAPPER: That we know of, yes.
PARLATORE: Correct. And so, what they're going to have to rely upon is the general testimony that he's a micromanager and everything else, so therefore they want the jury to assume that he was micromanaging this particular thing.
And so, I think that, you know, that's going to be a significant problem for them because if Michael Cohen doesn't have a single document or a secondary witness or anything to back up that this specific conversation happened, and if all they're going to rely upon is, you know, a convicted perjurer saying it happened and other people saying as a micromanager, that's a weakness.
TAPPER: Well, it's a -- it certainly -- it seems to be what the prosecution's banking on.
And Jamie Gangel, so the reason that Michael Cohen texted Keith Schiller --
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.
TAPPER: -- was not to check in to see how he's doing. Keith Schiller is Trump's bodyguard, his security guy --
GANGEL: Right.
TAPPER: -- and he wants to know where the boss is. Where's the boss, Cohen says, which of course references Mr. Trump. And Cohen says, it's regarding to Karen McDougal matter. I thought it was important.
So, Hoffinger, the prosecuting attorney, is now showing call records indicating that Trump and Cohen spoke by phone for 2 minutes and 31 seconds On June 16th, 2016. So again, trying to provide this evidence to back up Michael Cohen's story.
GANGEL: Look, to what Tim said, yes, the prosecutors have to connect the dots. They have to connect the dots beyond a reasonable doubt. But it hasn't just been about micromanaging. David Pecker of the "National Enquirer" has already been on the stand front loaded, said he wanted to help the campaign, that he would be the eyes and ears of the campaign. Hope Hicks has testified that Michael Cohen would not do this on his own.
These are not hostile witnesses to Donald Trump. So, the question is, when all is said and done, have the prosecutors taken these witnesses who are not hostile to Donald Trump along with the paperwork and threaded the needle.
TAPPER: So, just to just to catch you up on what else is going on. So, Dylan Howard had told Michael Cohen, you know, the meeting is set up, and he's talking about Karen McDougal and her people, that's on the 16th. Four days later, Dylan Howard texts Cohen, I'm about to meet her. Her name is Karen McDougal, former Playboy playmate. OK, Cohen responds. We need to speak.
Now, first of all, not just a Playboy playmate 2000 -- HONIG: Of the year.
TAPPER: -- of 1998 Playmate of the Year. So, just as we give Stormy Daniels her directing credits, let us give Karen McDougal her due as well. But the point is that Dylan Howard, even though he is purportedly an independent journalist, the editor in chief of the "National Enquirer", is actually, in many ways, at least according to this exchange, acting as an emissary of the -- almost the Trump -- not the Trump -- definitely not the Trump campaign, but Trump Inc., the Trump brand, because Pecker is on board with promoting the Trump brand.
And so -- I'm not saying that that proves their case or doesn't prove their case, but he's certainly operating as an emissary of the Trump organizations writ large.
KING: Completely outside of the lines under which we operate. If you were having a conversation with the Trump campaign official, you wouldn't call the Biden campaign and tell them that you might after the fact call them to get reaction to it, but you wouldn't coordinate with them your questions, or you wouldn't coordinate with them your activities.
So, you wouldn't give him a heads up. Hey, you know, I just got some potentially damaging information about you. It was just relayed to me. How can I help you kill it? It just does not happen in traditional journalism. It just shows you this is an incredibly unusual, with the "National Enquirer", I don't think there are that many people out there watching who think of it as a traditional, you know, think of it as "The New York Times" or the "Wall Street Journal" --
TAPPER: They do break stories though.
KING: They do. They do, or their local newspaper. But they absolutely do. They tend to be of a personal nature or Bigfoot's current location. But I don't --
TAPPER: That's the news of the world.
KING: -- I don't think a lot of people out there --
TAPPER: That's the news of the world.
KING: -- I don't think a lot of people out there think of them as a traditional journalist. But just the idea that Donald Trump had a friend that was essentially, you know, a giant fishing net, to go out and find things that could be bad to him is incredibly important. But to the attorney's point, OK, there's nothing illegal about it unless you get to the campaign finance piece of it, and that's harder to prove.
TAPPER: So, this is so fascinating. So, Dylan Howard, the editor in chief of the "National Enquirer", texts Cohen after the meeting. Spoke to DP, meaning David Pecker, who is the CEO of the entire tabloid empire.
[10:55:00]
I'm wrapping up with them, meaning Karen McDougal and her team, and then we will convene a three-way call between us all to sort this out. Understand, I've got this locked down for you. I won't let it out of my grasp. That is the editor in chief of the "National Enquirer" telling Donald Trump's emissary, Michael Cohen, I've got it wrapped up for you. I won't let it out of my grasp.
Did you insist this time on having a call with Dylan Howard right after he met with Karen McDougal, the prosecutor asks Michael Cohen. Yes, ma'am, Cohen says, because I needed to get an update so I could provide it for Mr. Trump.
The judge, there's a -- there's an objection right now, from the defense to Hoffinger's question about whether Howard expressed to Cohen if he thought mister -- if he thought Karen McDougal's story was true. The judge sustained that objection, so they're not going to explore that. Cohen says he was in Trump's office when Trump had a call with David Pecker about the Karen McDougal matter.
DAVIS: So, I want to describe to you my reaction looking for Trump's involvement because he systematically avoided e-mails. He would talk like "The Godfather" in Signals and code, Michael Cohen testified to that before Congress.
But there was one moment when I was going through this evidence where I was startled to see that Trump violated his rule and met with David Pecker and Michael Cohen and agreed on this catch and kill system. Trump, for the first time as I remember thinking, was there on record and there's a third-party witness before I knew David Pecker was going to be a witness.
So, at the very least that's one time that Trump makes the mistake of not speaking in code, not nodding his head, I don't like that guy, the way we see in "Godfather" movies. He is directly connected to the catch and kill by meeting with David Pecker and later on we have him on tape, as you know, with Michael Cohen talking about that deal. That's the second time that he didn't rely on codes. He was on tape talking about the $150,000 in cash.
TAPPER: And here's another time where there's a third person involved, the third person being Michael Cohen, if you believe this testimony. There is this meeting, Trump -- so Trump is meeting with Michael Cohen. Trump is talking on the phone with David Pecker about the Karen McDougal matter. He puts the phone on speakerphone, Michael Cohen says of Trump during the call, he asked him, meaning Trump asked Pecker how things were going with the matter, meaning the Karen McDougal story.
David Pecker said he had this under control. We'll take care of this, Cohen says of Pecker, during that phone conversation with Trump. So, this is a -- this is another one of these situations.
PARLATORE: Remember, all of this is not illegal.
TAPPER: Right, none of it is illegal. PARLATORE: Everything that they're corroborating, everything that, you know, that Lanny just talked about, that's not illegal. If the U.S. attorney's office had gone after it as a campaign finance case, then yes, they would have corroboration, but they didn't. This is all about what happened between Michael Cohen and Weisselberg as to the booking of the payments. That's it.
DAVIS: But may I --
HONIG: The prosecutors --
PARLATORE: And so, if they don't have direct evidence of Trump's involvement in that discussion --
DAVIS: May I just respectfully, I constantly hear that it's not illegal to pay hush money. That's not what this case is about.
TAPPER: Right.
DAVIS: David Pecker said it was about the campaign. Hope Hicks says -- said it was about the campaign. There is no doubt that the money was being paid for political reasons, and it's because of the political motivation that makes it a crime.
TAPPER: Well, I -- the question --
PARLATORE: Which may get reprehensible --
TAPPER: -- is there a doubt or not? You said --
PARLATORE: -- but not a crime.
TAPPER: - you say --
DAVIS: No, no, it's the political motivation that makes it a crime, I agree with you.
PARLATORE: But he's not charged with that, that's the problem.
DAVIS: The political --
PARLATORE: The U.S. attorney's office rejected that.
DAVIS: The political motivation is the crime of campaign finance violation. I respectfully disagree with you. And nobody seems to think that this was about Melania.
HONIG: The payment of hush money --
DAVIS: I haven't heard any testimony that that's what it was about.
TAPPER: So, you're saying there's no doubt that this was politically motivated. You're saying there is a doubt.
DAVIS: Well, everyone has testified --
PARLATORE: I'm saying it's --
DAVIS: -- so far that it was. So far.
PARLATORE: Obviously, I'm not defending him in this case. I'm not representing him.
TAPPER: Right.
DAVIS: But that's not the issue here.
TAPPER: Right.
PARLATORE: The issue here is whether he knew about, you know, how they were booking it. And if --
DAVIS: That's the second issue.
PARLATORE: --- and if that booking was done for the purpose of concealing another crime. But the reality is, even if he's right about this being some kind of campaign finance violation. Even if that's true, accepting that, the way that they put it into the books doesn't have any effect of, you know, of concealing that because those books aren't public.
TAPPER: Right.
PARLATORE: So, it doesn't have a connection. So legally it's no good.
TAPPER: To be continued, just to bring people an update on what's going on in court right now. So, we have this speakerphone conversation going on between Donald Trump and David Pecker, the head of the "National Enquirer" tabloid empire. And Michael Cohen is listening in because it's on speaker. David Pecker says he had it under control. This is buying the Karen McDougal story and killing it, what's called catch and kill.
[11:00:00]
