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CNN Live Event/Special

Soon: Michael Cohen Resumes Testimony In Trump Trial; Now: Michael Cohen Testifies In Trump Hush Money Trial. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired May 13, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And welcome back to CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money cover-up trial. The court is on a morning break. The jury just exited the courtroom without looking at Trump. They were just listening to Michael Cohen's testify -- Michael Cohen testified under penalty of perjury about that recorded phone call between the former Trump fixer and his former boss Donald Trump. Cohen explaining why he advised the former president against using cash to buy the silence of women peddling stories about sexual encounters with Trump.

I want to bring in Anthony Scaramucci. He briefly served as White House Communications Director in the Trump administration. Anthony, good to see you.

So, Cohen has long said that Trump didn't direct people to do anything. He spoke in code. Examples, like handle it or make sure it doesn't get released. Is that what you experienced working for Trump?

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: You know, I wasn't -- I wasn't part of that. But I -- what I did experience is that he was very keen not to use e-mail or text messages. You know, he felt a lot of the things that he was doing that were on the nefarious side, Anderson.

He definitely didn't want data that could be retrieved and be a potential form of evidence against him at some point. So, there was always that sense, but I didn't see that specifically. That was something that Michael was handling directly.

COOPER: Given Cohen's history. His credibility issues. I'm wondering how you think he's done so far with it -- with his testimony.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, I mean, I think there's always going to be two schools of thought on this. But I see him as a reformed person, I see him that has already paid a price for lying in court, and I see it as a near impossibility that he would be lying about this. And I think he and the prosecutors built a good foundation of that today before the jury. And so, I think the facts that Michael are laying out are irrefutable. And, you know, listen, it's -- again, Mr. Trump is entitled to innocence until that jury says he's guilty. But the facts are there, Anderson. It'll be I think, very easy to conclude what happened. And so -- you know, and Michael told a very good story today.

And I think, Michael's a compelling guy. And you and I both know people that have been caught in lies in the past that have reformed themselves and are speaking very directly and very factually. And I think he did that today. And, you know, listen, I think Michael is one of the good guys that I think long-term history will reward him for the honesty that he's portraying today.

COOPER: You know, it is -- when you hear that -- just the testimony we've heard so far what we know about the Trump organization. You know, Michael Cohen obviously, was very close to Donald Trump and was in on all these things. Allen Weisselberg is the other person who certainly was the closest too. The fact that he is in jail right now, and not being called as a witness -- I mean, that's a gift for Donald Trump.

[11:35:22]

SCARAMUCCI: Well, OK. So, there you go. You've got two people that were involved with a high level of dishonesty and criminality. And, you know, one is serving time and has made a decision to go in that direction. The other one served time already and is now being very open and very honest about the case.

The defense will certainly point out that Mr. Weisselberg is in there. But I don't think it's that consequential. I think the prosecution has done a very good job of laying out the facts of the case. And also, a very good job of explaining where the tripwires are in terms of how you pass into criminality.

So, I don't think you necessarily need Allen Weisselberg to be there. But you're right. He's decided to serve time in jail rather than give testimony. And he's entitled to do that.

COOPER: Do you -- does it make sense to you kind of the loyalty that Michael Cohen had to Donald Trump for so long? I mean his -- I mean, from his own testimony, you know, he was bullying, he was you know, screwing over a lot of people on behalf -- the direction of Donald Trump. And when Trump would all to kind of get the praise of Donald Trump, according to Cohen's testimony.

SCARAMUCCI: Yes.

COOPER: Does that make sense to you, that's kind of loyalty to a guy like Donald Trump --

SCARAMUCCI: Well --

COOPER: Who clearly doesn't show much loyalty to anybody else?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, you know, listen. It doesn't make sense to me. And it wouldn't make sense to you, Anderson. But I think there's a big underlying lesson in this. Don't be anybody's groupie, whether it's a rock and roll or reality star.

And I think what Michael did was -- you know, he got on the Volkswagen van with Donald Trump and he -- and he hung out with the band and thought he was part of the band. And he wasn't. And so, when he got kicked to the curb, and that's exactly what Donald Trump does to everybody, there's an asymmetric, narcissistic nature to him.

But there's a big lesson there for viewers listening at home and kids. Don't be anybody's groupie. And there's a symmetrical nature to loyalty. Loyalty is a two-way street. When someone's disavowing you, and let's face it -- Mr. Trump's only out for himself.

He's running for president for retribution and vengeance. He's been very open about that. He's not there to serve the American people. He hurts people.

And he's asymmetric in his nature. And it's not just Michael Cohen. There's a legion of people that he's done this to. But I think that that's the cautionary tale year. Don't jump on the Volkswagen van with the long hair rock star because it's not going to serve your interest long term.

COOPER: The defense's argument is that Trump, you know, didn't know the reimbursement check happened this way and was marked -- it was marked as -- didn't know is marked as a legal expense, and he didn't direct it being marked like that. I'm wondering, do you think the prosecutor -- I mean, Michael Cohen, it seems at this point is the only one who will testify for the prosecution that he did know? Do you think that's enough?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, he's also got them on tape, Anderson. You know, they -- they're on tape more or less verifying and confirming that the transaction is taking place, and the problem is going to go away. So, I think that the combination of those two things, the direct testimony, the evidence, the tape -- you know, I think it's incontrovertible, frankly.

COOPER: Yes. Anthony Scaramucci, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

SCARAMUCCI: Good to be here.

COOPER: Soon court will resume. Michael Cohen will retake the stand. The former Trump fixer spending roughly an hour and 45 minutes under oath already this morning. Watch more of CNN's special live coverage after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:43:48]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: A quick moving morning at 100 Centre Street courtroom 59, Michael Dean Cohen just retake -- we took the witness stand. Donald Trump's lead attorney Todd Blanche is whispering to his climate inside the room as the former Trump fixer settles in for more testimony. The jury is returning to the courtroom right now. Former Trump campaign adviser David Urban joins me now remotely. David, you've brought up a lot of concerns about Cohen's credibility. I don't know anyone who watches Michael Cohen's TikToks more than you do. Is there anything you have heard so far today that has made Cohen seen perhaps within the neighborhood of credible?

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. Look, Jake, our colleague Elie correctly pointed out this morning earlier that Cohen's lied to Congress, to the court, to the IRS, to the Southern District of New York, to his wife, to his bankers, and he is the star witness. He's the linchpin of convicting Donald Trump here and making the case that somehow that Donald Trump told him -- and he's telling the truth here now that he told him to, you know, write this down and log this incorrectly.

[11:45:02]

And, you know -- you know, it's -- Jake, it's not just me that's not convinced on this. You know, there's a New York Times Siena poll out this morning that has -- you know, that has Donald Trump ahead in five of the six battleground states. So, I don't know if the American people just aren't tuning in, or if they just don't care, or if they think this is not applicable. But apparently, they're not too concerned about this current ongoing case as well.

And our colleague Fareed Zakaria wrote -- I -- this past weekend, maybe I think it was on Friday that even in his opinion, this case wouldn't have been brought unless the defendant's name was Donald J. Trump. So, there's the court of you know, a legal opinion. And then there's a court of public opinion. And I think the prosecutor here, Alvin Bragg, is losing in both.

TAPPER: I think that Mr. Trump earlier today also quoted my colleague Fareed Zakaria there that the prosecution went to great lengths to establish that Michael Cohen loved working for Trump. And Michael Cohen said that he loved working for Trump. Doesn't that help bolster his credibility as a -- as a one-time Trump sycophant who told lies on Trump's behalf now coming forward and admitting that he loved working for Trump, but he's not there anymore?

URBAN: You know, Jake, that's the problem. Right? You know, it -- look, it's well-known in the media and in the Trump world that when Michael Cohen was passed over for a job in the White House -- and, Jake, you remember those early days that everybody in anybody was getting the job in the White House. It was -- you know, a lot -- a lot of criticism of who was getting those jobs. And Michael Cohen was left out.

He did not -- he was not invited into the clubhouse. And he was pretty, pretty upset about that. And look, I can make a case that, you know, he was -- he was pissed about it, and he's out -- he's got an axe to grind now at this point. And I think that's the case the defense will make when they're -- when they're closing this case.

TAPPER: So, just back in the courtroom, the judge instructed the jury that the evidence in the case is the tape itself. The transcript is an aid to that evidence, but it's the tape itself that is the evidence. Prosecutor Hoffinger back at the -- at the podium.

Mr. Trump has a stack of papers in his hand. He was reading them as Hoffinger resumed questioning. Trump looked over in Cohen's direction for a second and then turned to say something to Emil Bove, and then Todd Blanche, his attorneys.

Trump has been, as these things go in court, behaved. He is not cursing the way that the judge reprimanded his attorney for him doing last week. He is apparently just sitting there keeping his eyes closed, not even looking at Michael Cohen for most of the time. What do you make of it, he's listening to his attorneys' instructions.

URBAN: Yes. Jake, I think he really is. I think he recognizes his liberty is at stake here. And that he needs to pay attention.

And listen, I'm sure when he gets in that suburban after the long day of court, he is -- he is not remaining quiet. I'm sure he's letting it out in the car when he's done. But let's -- I -- you know, I applaud his restraint at this point.

Hopefully, it'll remain -- it'll remain throughout the trial. And we'll get back on the campaign trail here shortly and we'll pick up Wisconsin here in the -- in that -- so, the next battleground poll comes out, Trump will be up in 66 states.

TAPPER: David Urban, thank you so much. Good to see you. Some of the things going on in the courtroom right now.

URBAN: Thank you, Jake. Thanks for having me.

TAPPER: Cohen says the recording was cut off. The recording -- the recording he was a -- recording of using his phone to record this meeting with Donald Trump, he said it was cut off because he received an incoming call. Circling back to the recording -- recorded conversation, Cohen says he didn't think cash was a good idea to repay the tabloid empire AMI for the McDougal transaction, so he suggested by check to make it appear to be a proper transaction. I didn't want to record more, Cohen says. Cohen says I had already had enough that I would be able to show David Packer so as to convince him that he was going to receive the $150,000 back. So, Cohen in this telling he was recording Donald Trump saying that he'll -- suggesting that he'll pay David Pecker back the $150,000 that the tabloid enterprise pays Karen McDougal for her story so as to kill it -- catch and kill. He was trying to convince David Pecker to do it, and by playing this recording of Donald Trump I'm saying yes, I'll pay him back.

Trump shakes his head at Cohen's testimony while continuing to read the papers in his hand. I'm told we have some of the first courtroom sketches from inside the room. Again, if I had my druthers, we would be airing this entire thing for you live.

But we're -- I -- we do not have my druthers. So, there are -- here's a Jane Rosenberg special with Attorney Susan Hoffinger standing at the -- at the little podium. They hear -- have a hound dog face to Michael Cohen testifying. On the right, Judge Merchan listening intently. There's -- there he is. There's his basset hound face, Michael Cohen. [11:50:15]

And -- but I want to bring something to your attention though. The Jane Rosenberg's art is magisterial as it may be. Donald Trump, we have been told, has not looked in the direction he is depicted in this art looking. He has -- generally he's been facing forward toward the judge. That is obviously very recognizably Donald Trump, though.

So, that's Jane Rosenberg. I'm not sure if we have Christine Cornell available. If we do, I'd love to see that. No Cornell, yes. But that's the art from inside the room. Cohen says, by the way, that the call that interrupted the recording came from a bank branch manager at Capital One Bank.

Kasie Hunt, so, here we are. They are establishing the pattern, the prosecution, of Michael Cohen taking care of ladies with stories about Donald Trump. And -- anyway, Hoffinger, did you ever alter that recording? Michael Cohen says no.

KASIE HUNT, ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Right.

TAPPER: But the -- and the recording as we -- as we heard, the judge say, is evidence.

HUNT: Right. And the -- and the context from our team in the room is just that what they're doing here is trying to show that this recording was not altered, to try to push back against any suggestion that they're -- that this is not the complete truth of what actually we hear, that this is, in fact, what happened here that this was recorded. And it's kind of interesting the reporting that we have coming in about Trump as well, and kind of what he's been doing.

He hasn't had too much reaction here. But we have seen him -- I'm trying to find exactly how they characterize what he was doing but he was kind of shaking his head at one point as he looked over papers here. And it does seem to me in the sketch, the point there is to show that his eyes were closed, right, during much of this testimony. She seems to have his face turned so that we, as the viewers, can see that his eyes are --

TAPPER: They are --

HUNT: Had to be close here.

TAPPER: They're not photographs.

HUNT: They're not.

TAPPER: They are artistic interpretations.

HUNT: To try to convey the most important information to us.

TAPPER: Yes. And Jane Rosenberg, who is heralded for her craft, tends to portray Donald Trump looking in the direction of the testimony when in fact, that is not what he just doing. HUNT: Yes, I just mean, it's portraying him as he's listening to this testimony, his eyes are closed, right with him on -- with him on the stand. At least that's what I -- what I can tell from here. I mean, look, I think that this very clearly -- I mean -- and one of the interesting things here, too -- I mean, I'm interested to know how Trump feels by having been recorded by Michael Cohen.

Cohen is saying that Trump was not aware that this recording was being made. but that the point of it was not to trap Trump in something. The point of it was to ensure that David Pecker was going to be convinced.

TAPPER: Yes. And what's important about that, Jamie Gangel and John King, is not that Michael Cohen was trying to placate David Pecker because he loved David Pecker and liked David Pecker more than he liked Donald Trump. No, it is. And this is an analysis from Abby Philip, who was inside.

The prosecution is laying out the evidence and speaks to why Michael Cohen was so concerned that David Pecker was furious about not being repaid. There was a lot of information that the tabloid had on Trump in a secure drawer. Cohen didn't know what was in it, but he wanted to make sure Pecker remained loyal to Trump. So, that's the significance of that.

And then inside the courtroom after being asked if he ever altered the recording, Michael Cohen says, no. Was it typical for you to discuss financial matters with Allen Weisselberg, prosecuting attorney Susan Hoffinger asks. It was typical for everyone to discuss financial matters with Allen Weisselberg, Cohen says. Cohen also notes that Weisselberg was a longtime loyal employee of Trump.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So, the word loyal, let's just talk about what's behind everything here, which is Michael Cohen's credibility. And I think it's important to remind our audience, he is not getting anything for his testimony, maybe revenge, but there's no plea deal. He already went to prison.

Common sense, why should you believe him now? He doesn't want to go back to prison. If he gets caught lying, that's perjury.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Their point though, is to make that to a jury, right?

GANGEL: Right.

KING: We understand the history of this case. They're trying to convince a juror or two that this guy has an axe to grind, whether it's -- to David Urban's point, he wasn't invited into the White House or Trump turned on him, Trump gave up on him, Trump was his -- you know, his source of money. There we go.

But again, in the idea that this urgency of keeping this -- these deals, not deal, that Stormy Daniels deal and how they accounted for it is key to the criminal charges. But the idea that presenting that this was a common occurrence. September 6, this recording, which is Labor Day weekend, you know, 60 days before an election. That part, they haven't brought in yet in this testimony. They have earlier. They've talked about the campaign part of it. That's interesting to me if they get to the point, you know, to Cohen about you know, did the campaign come up.

GANGEL: And again --

TAPPER: Yes. So, Weisselberg is --

KING: -- (INAUDIBLE) motivation for the campaign finance -- alleged campaign finance violation.

[11:55:05]

TAPPER: Weisselberg's name is coming up a lot right now because Hoffinger is saying was typical for you to discuss financial matters with Allen Weisselberg. Cohen says it's typical for everyone to discuss financial matters with Allen Weisselberg. Hoffinger asks whether a deal of this size, now remember, this is $150,000 that is going to be repaid to the tabloid empire, the National Enquirer, AMI, which is hiring Karen McDougal and giving her $150,000.

In exchange for that, she gets a column that I don't think has ever printed. Somebody else is going to write it for her but again, it was never printed anyway. And she keeps quiet about her alleged long-term affair with Donald Trump.

So, Hoffinger is saying $150,000 paid for Donald Trump to David Pecker, would that go through Allen Weisselberg. And he says any deal goes through Allen Weisselberg. Allen handled all the finances coming in and coming out.

What's the point of this, Lanny Davis? If -- Cohen says he has 10 to 12 conversations with Weisselberg about the McDougal transaction. Weisselberg is not a witness in this case. What is that --

LANNY DAVIS, MICHAEL COHEN'S FORMER ATTORNEY: What? Hot document that was easy to dismiss the first time we saw it, but it's coming back. I warn you that in Weisselberg's handwriting is the amount of money that Michael Cohen was paid. And it was for the purpose of reimbursing the crime for which he went to prison.

And all the diminishment of this case should never have been brought. And all of the disparagement of the case forgets two things. Number one, Michael Cohen was prosecuted for that crime that people say we shouldn't be worried about and went to prison for it. -- (INAUDIBLE)

TAPPER: For the hiding -- the hiding of the money to Stormy Daniels?

DAVIS: This hush money crime.

TAPPER: Yes, he went to --

DAVIS: And a campaign finance violation. The federal prosecutors prosecuted him. He pled guilty and went to prison. And secondly, the federal prosecutors called this so-called political case that David Moxon cites public opinion polls that oh, by the way, within the margin of error. This is a case that federal prosecutors described on page 23 of their sentencing memo asking for a longer sentence for Michael Cohen. They called it an impairment of our democracy. It was --

TAPPER: An impairment of our democracy.

DAVIS: Yes. That's federal prosecutors who work for Donald Trump's Justice Department. So, when I hear, you and I --

TAPPER: The Southern District in New York.

DAVIS: My old --

TAPPER: Rob Khuzami.

DAVIS: Yes.

TAPPER: Chuck Berman?

DAVIS: Yes. So, when I see even my old friend Fareed Zakaria, from my alma mater, saying this case should never been brought, excuse me. The case was brought against Michael Cohen by the federal government. They sent him to prison. And they called the importance of the case not money for sex. They said it's about wealthy people buying silence, and suppressing information right before an election.

TAPPER: So, I think we have that -- the memo that you're talking about, the handwritten document, and if we can bring that up. Here it is. Michael Cohen, I can't really see it very well. 27 -- anyway, this --

DAVIS: That's Weisselberg's handwriting.

TAPPER: That's Weisselberg's handwriting. And --

DAVIS: This all the money --

TAPPER: Why -- this is all the money that we paid to --

DAVIS: Michael Cohen.

TAPPER: Michael Cohen.

DAVIS: Be reimbursed.

TAPPER: To be -- and be reimbursed. Plus.

DAVIS: It was Trude up by double the amount so that if he's paid double, then the after-tax money is even. And he had other money, like a bonus that had been paid that's on the sheet. But when I first saw that in this room, and I first realized that they had Weisselberg's handwriting as evidence, that's why Susan is asking how important --

TAPPER: That's why. Because there -- because there it is. And Allen --

DAVIS: There it --

TAPPER: Allen Weisselberg knows all about it.

DAVIS: Yes.

TAPPER: The day after Cohen recorded that conversation with Donald Trump, he's testifying that he and another person at AMI, the tabloid kingdom, texted and discussed possible names for the shell corporations that they're setting up in Delaware.

ELI HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right. And to Lanny's point, what prosecutors are trying to do here is corroborate Michael Cohen at every turn.

DAVIS: Yes.

HONIG: That page of handwritten notes goes to the Stormy Daniels payments, which is coming up soon. Right now, they're talking about McDougal but that page of handwritten notes, prosecutors will argue, this shows how they came up with the amount $420,000 to repay Michael Cohen for the $130,000 that he paid to Stormy Daniels. Now, if you notice, throughout the morning, as often as possible, prosecutors are injecting texts, phone records, recordings to try to back up every piece of what Michael Cohen says. Because you want to be able as a prosecutor to present Michael Cohen to the jury as you don't need to take him in a vacuum at his word because what he says is backed up.

I do want to make two important points about -- to Lanny's point about the Southern District of New York in the history of prosecuting Michael Cohen. What you said is correct. But number one, DOJ, the very same Southern District of New York, actually, technically during the Biden administration, the first couple of weeks of the Biden administration had a series of internal meetings about do we now charge Donald Trump now that he's no longer the president?

TAPPER: Individual one.

HONIG: Individual one. Can we turn individual one into federal defendant one. There was a series of internal deliberations, non- political, and the decision was no. The other thing is, it's not quite correct. I know it's become a little bit of a slogan. It's not quite correct to say Michael Cohen already went to prison for this. It's not quite for this.