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CNN Live Event/Special

Michael Cohen Testifies in Trump Hush Money Trial. Aired 1- 1:30p ET

Aired May 13, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:01]

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, I don't think they want to talk about the whole law and justice order at all.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But that's a key -- that's a key point, though. You don't hear the Republicans saying Senator Menendez or Congressman Cuellar are being politically prosecuted by the Biden administration, do you? You don't hear that.

I grew up in an America that's long forgotten, or at least for the last five years forgotten, where politicians didn't talk about trials when they were ongoing.

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL COHEN: Also...

KING: You shut your mouth and let the process play out.

DAVIS: Excuse me for reminding. I'm reticent to pronounce a verdict about Donald Trump or to get on a political subject.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes. So...

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: This is a trial, and we have got to wait for the jury.

TAPPER: I have got to interrupt you. I'm so sorry.

A courtroom break after Michael Cohen testified this morning that Donald Trump told him: "Take care of it." The "it" were claims being made by adult film star and director Stormy Daniels. Cohen added -- Cohen adding -- quote -- "This was all about the campaign."

CNN's special live coverage continues with Laura Coates. Stay with us.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to CNN's special coverage of former President Trump's hush money criminal trial. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Laura Coates is outside court in New York.

Today, Trump's former fixer and lawyer Michael Cohen has taken the stand. So far, the prosecution's star witness has testified about his work for Trump, zeroing in on two instances where he worked with "The National Enquirer"'s David Pecker to catch and kill negative stories about Trump.

And that includes a false allegation from Trump's former doorman about Trump supposedly having fathered a love child. Cohen testified -- and I'm quoting him now -- "Trump told me to make sure that the story doesn't get out. You handle it" -- close quote -- Laura, over to you.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: That's right.

I mean, Cohen also recounted telling Trump about former Playboy model Karen McDougal shopping her story of a monthlong secret affair. He also testified that Trump told him to -- quote -- "Make sure it doesn't get released."

And just before court took a break, prosecutors began questioning Cohen about what is at the very heart of this case, the $130,000 hush money payment to adult film actress Stormy Daniels and the alleged disguised reimbursement.

With me is CNN legal analyst -- affairs correspondent, the chief, Paula Reid. And CNN correspondent Kristen Holmes is also here.

Ladies, I just actually got out of the courtroom. And let me tell you, it was a kind of a surreal moment to see Michael Cohen inside this courtroom with Donald Trump. Obviously, people have been anticipating this. This is the star witness.

We have heard so much about him. But what struck me immediately was just how deferential he still seemed, in the sense that he acknowledged it being an honor, he said, to be asked to work for him. He talked about feeling like he's on top of the world when there was praise that was given from Donald Trump.

And he was so paced in a way that he did not interrupt the prosecutor, that he was hoping to get every question, answered it directly. He was really, really prepared to have this moment.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

And I think that one of the most important things to remember about Michael Cohen is this kind of really unbalanced relationship that he had...

COATES: Yes.

HOLMES: ... with the former president, this idea that he really worshipped him in some sort of ways.

He said he never went back to his other job afterwards. He just had somebody from Trump Organization pack up his stuff, and then he was so thrilled to work for the former president. And this is really what you see a lot with the former president.

You -- there's a lot of questioning out there throughout the country of how these people stay with Donald Trump, given all the potential legal hurdles they might eventually face. And this is because he somehow has a ability to bring people in to where they feel happy when they get some sort of praise by him.

They're looking for the ultimate kind of scrap of acknowledgement. And that's really what you saw from Michael Cohen. But part of that also is the fact that he has to say that, because we have already heard it from other witnesses.

Remember, all these other witnesses testified to the fact that Michael Cohen, they were telling Donald Trump he would jump in front of a bus for you. He would take a bullet for you. So part of that is also the prosecution has to remember -- remind everyone that that's true. Michael Cohen did feel that way at one point.

COATES: And yet the important part too, thinking about it from the prosecution's perspective, is, he's also been somebody people describe as very biased against Trump, right...

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

COATES: ... having a vendetta against him. So having his demeanor instead display some level of fond memories, his voice almost trailing off at a child when he would talk about that phrase that he was looking and wanting.

But there was a moment Paula everyone's been wondering and waiting to hear about up. Until now, we have only ever heard about the intimations that Trump would make. The word instruct has not come out, told, directed, commanded. None of these things come up.

But then, today, they began to come into the testimony about what Michael Cohen said Trump had him do.

REID: Yes, this is a really interesting place to stop, right, this intermission.

And I think things are going to get a lot more intense as we go into the afternoon, because we're now getting into the heart of what is alleged here, right, this alleged conspiracy to falsify business records. And Michael Cohen is the only one who can testify to Trump's direct involvement, because the only other person who can do it is Allen Weisselberg.

[13:05:04]

He's in Rikers. He's not going to be called. So, so far -- I don't know if you got this impression being inside court, but, far, this seemed to be the easy part of Cohen's assignment. He's going through things that people have already testified to, things that Michael Cohen has already said publicly.

Now it's going to get tricky, because now they're getting into the heart of the criminal allegations. What did Trump direct you to do vis-a-vis this hush money payment? How involved was he? And in terms of falsifying these business records, getting him repaid, what were their conversations once Trump was in the White House in 2017?

Because that is something so far no one has been able to directly testified to.It's going to be huge. I mean, this afternoon, really, this is going to make or break the prosecution's case.

COATES: You know, Kara Scannell just let the courtroom as well.

And, Kara, I want to bring you in here, because Paula is right. I mean, this was the easy part of the day, when you talk about your bio, and whether you were married, and your resume, and all those things, and your memory up until now.

Well, not only will the cross-examination, if that occurs today, but also will be something that we will think about how he will respond. What will his demeanor be like. You had a front-row seat. I have got to understand from you,what was the former president doing when Michael Cohen would come into the room?

What was his body language telling you?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Michael Cohen is on the stand today all morning.

And his demeanor has been very measured, very even. He's mostly been looking at the prosecutor when he's answering these questions. He only looked over at Donald Trump when he was asked to identify him. Otherwise, he has been very focused on the prosecutor, speaking very slowly, very in control of the message and the story that he is testifying to.

Donald Trump, during his testimony, for the most part has been leaning back in his chair, sitting back with his eyes closed. At times, when text messages were up on the screen, we saw Donald Trump lean in to read some of them and when Michael Cohen had testified about Melania, because one of the questions that he was asked was about making this payment, the "Access Hollywood" tape, the news of the Stormy McDaniels story -- the Stormy Daniels story about to become public.

And Cohen had said that Trump didn't care what this meant for Melania. He was focused on the campaign. And Trump had made a face kind of reacting to that. That is consistently the types of things we have seen him have more reflexive reactions to during this trial. He had it then.

But, for the most part, he has been occasionally passing a note to his lawyer, but really sitting back up with his eyes closed. The question that everyone's kind of doing joking about it is, is he meditating? How is he able to be so kind of in control of himself while this testimony has been taking place throughout this trial?

But with Cohen and Trump on the stand, there has not been a moment where it looks like they have made any eye contact. Cohen, entering and leaving the courtroom, has kept his face forward, his eyes kind of looking a little bit around him, but not at all looking the direction of Donald Trump.

And Trump, when Cohen is entering, has often been talking to his attorneys, sometimes passing notes to them. So we haven't seen him lock eyes with Michael Cohen. And, right now, the mood in the courtroom is pretty calm. I mean, there was a lot of expectation that maybe Cohen would be more bombastic in his testimony.

He has been very measured so far, and so has Trump's reaction up until this point, as we're getting now into the mechanics of this $130,000 payment and some of the testimony that would be the most damaging to Trump and most helpful to the prosecution's case, because Cohen is talking about how Trump wanted him to delay making this payment until after the election, saying that, if he'd drag it out as long as possible, saying, if I win, it's not relevant. If I lose, then I don't even care.

But he wanted this payment either to be made to keep the story silent or to drag it out so he didn't have to make the payment at all. And we're just getting to this point of tension here, getting into this. But Cohen has already said several times that Donald Trump was doing this for his campaign, and not his family, which is what the prosecution has to prove in this case, not only that it was falsified business records, but that Trump was doing it to commit or conceal another crime, which they say is related to the election -- Laura.

COATES: And, Kara, it struck me as well to think about just how measured he was in terms of his responses, that he wouldn't interject. He only answered the questions he was asked.

You compare that to, say, a Stormy Daniels, another blockbuster witness, where you had many objections, trying to control the witness, so she wouldn't meander in some ways, go down rabbit holes. That was not the case here.

But you're absolutely right. We're getting right into the meat of the matter now of whether or not it's just him suggesting or whether, as he described at the very beginning, Kara, right, his job was to report to Donald Trump, that his job was to ensure that his comforts were first and foremost, no one else's.

That's going to be very, very foreshadowing down the line, right?

SCANNELL: Right.

I mean, what we have heard Cohen say -- and that's why prosecutors had him begin by talking about the early days working at the Trump Organization, and Cohen testifying that he was kind of like a puppy, running right back to Donald Trump's office to tell him what work he had done, so that he could get credit for certain things that he did.

[13:10:10]

And that was laying this pattern in place for the jury, as now Michael Cohen telling the jury that he was executing Donald Trump's orders, that he told -- he knew that Donald Trump wanted this taken care of, that he was taking care of it.

And just this last bit at the end, again, they're showing an e-mail between Cohen and Keith Davidson -- that was Stormy Daniels' attorney -- asking Cohen, "Where is this payment?" giving a deadline for it, and Cohen telling the jury that he was dragging it out. He said: "I was following orders. That's what I was doing," so trying to make clear during his testimony that he wasn't making any of these decisions on his own, but he was doing this after speaking with Donald Trump and because he knew that is what Donald Trump wanted him to do.

COATES: Kara, thank you so much.

Paula, Kristen, stay with me.

Wolf, it strikes everyone that we have heard a lot of this before. Why? Because, chronologically, we have seen other witnesses already buttress the credibility of Michael Cohen by testifying before him -- back to you.

BLITZER: Thank you, Laura.

The drama continues, clearly.

I want to bring in our panel of experts to assess what is going on.

And, Elie, let me start with you.

Do you think Cohen has done a good job so far, a bad job? How's he doing?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Wolf, so far, so good from a prosecutor's perspective. And that's all you can ask for at this point.

And I base that on a couple things. One, I think that Michael Cohen's testimony has been quite clear, even following it along with the updates from in court. Laura just said the same. Jurors can understand where he's going.

Number two, he has given various accounts of this in various forms in the past, congressional testimony and testimony he's given to investigators. And there's no obvious inconsistency yet at this point, no major inconsistency.

And, three -- and this is a classic prosecutorial tactic -- they're backing him up with texts, with checks, with documents, with recordings at every possible turn.

Now, the real test, of course, will come on cross-examination. And, to that end, I think where they're going to attack Michael Cohen is say, fine, no -- nobody questions you had a series of texts with Keith Davidson. Nobody questions you had a phone call with Pecker.

But the key part of Michael Cohen's testimony, I was keeping Donald Trump informed, that largely rides and falls solely on Michael Cohen's word. So I think that's where they're going to focus on the cross.

BLITZER: Very interesting.

And, Elliot, when he was asked whether Trump expressed any concern about all the negative stories on his personal life that potentially could affect his candidacy, this is what Cohen said -- and I'm quoting -- "You know that, when this comes out," meaning the announcement, "just be prepared. There's going to be a lot of women coming forward."

What do you make of that?

(LAUGHTER)

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I make of it the fact that there's -- they're aware that this was a concern that the Trump Organization and the former president had.

Now, again, whether there were other women, number one, isn't really going to come up at trial. They're not going to be able to establish evidence that there were additional affairs. It's not good for information like that to come in front of the jury, right, because they are hearing all of this, and they are drawing their conclusions about the defendant and these witnesses and so on.

Now, to Elie's point, so far Michael Cohen has been quite credible, at least in terms of what the prosecutors needed him to do up until this point. Now, the rubber meets the road in the next portion of his testimony and then in cross-examination.

In the next portion of his testimony, that's where it comes in really what happened with respect to Stormy Daniels, how the scheme was structured, what Donald Trump's intention was with respect to the payments, and so on, and then was there -- can he provide any evidence of efforts to falsify business records?

But that -- the aside about other women, just -- it's not helpful at all to the defendant...

BLITZER: Yes.

WILLIAMS: ... but it doesn't really change anything.

BLITZER: You're right.

Gloria, so far, during the testimony this morning, Trump has largely had no reaction...

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

BLITZER: ... at least visible reaction. He's leaned back in his chair, closes his eyes sometimes.

What do you make of Trump's demeanor in court, at least so far today?

BORGER: Well, I think he's been told not to react in any visible way to Michael Cohen.

I think that he probably wants to run up there and wring his neck. But he's not going to -- he's not going to do it. And I think, in a -- the same way that Michael Cohen is very sort of subdued today, he was told to act like that, because, in real life, if these two guys got together, I guarantee you it wouldn't be quiet. It would be -- it would be loud.

The most remarkable thing to me, though, was when Michael Cohen, according to Michael, had a conversation with Donald Trump in which he asked about Melania. How do you think Melania is going to react to this? And Donald Trump's response -- I'm still trying to get over it -- was, "How long do you think I will be on the market for?" which means, if she were to leave me, I'm a hot commodity. I'm a hot ticket here.

[13:15:08]

And that doesn't seem to me to give away any real concern that Donald Trump had about whether Melania heard about this or not. Now, again, it came from Michael Cohen. I'm sure it will be challenged, but it was quite a striking comment.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: And that's something that has nothing to do with the heart of the matter...

BORGER: Yes, of course.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: ... except the jury can -- that's a very personal thing.

So I'm anxious to see if that's followed up in cross-examination tomorrow. I mean, like Elie was saying, I mean, without question, most trials, but in this one particularly, the most interesting is cross- examination, not direct examination.

BORGER: Well, if it had to do with the heart of the trial, which is, did they do this for the campaign, and not Melania, that does go to the heart of the trial.

ZELENY: And, to me, that's the most interesting thing he said this morning as well, Michael Cohen.

He said that the candidate Trump at the time, candidate Trump...

BORGER: Right.

ZELENY: ... was worried about the impact on female voters.

He was worried about the impact that the fallout of this would have on his election. So, that is -- now we're getting to the heart of the matter here. Again, we will see what we hear this afternoon, and particularly on cross.

BLITZER: When we come back, I want to get to some new polling numbers that are just out today. And we will see what is happening on that front.

ZELENY: Sure.

BLITZER: Everybody, stick around, a lot more coming up. Court is on a quick break for lunch right now. Don't go anywhere,

because we have a lot to discuss with our team. They have been inside the courtroom all morning watching and listening how Trump and jurors are reacting to today's testimony.

Stay with us. Lots more coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:21:07]

COATES: Welcome back to our special breaking news coverage of the hush money criminal trial of former President Donald Trump.

Now, court is in a break for lunch and due to resume in about 40 minutes.

I'm joined now by CNN's Abby Phillip.

You were in court all morning today. First of all, we were both there thinking, this is going to be quite the moment, Abby. We have been -- all been waiting for him to come testify. What would it be like when he finally came front-to-front, face-to-face with Donald Trump?

Tell me what you felt inside the courtroom.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Yes, I mean, Michael Cohen was very measured.

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: He was really careful.

I mean, remember, he is actually technically an attorney...

COATES: Yes.

PHILLIP: ... even though what he was doing in this case was not necessarily legal work.

And you could tell that he was really trying to practice restraint, answering questions carefully, yes-or-no answers. There were only a couple of moments when Donald Trump reacted. And it wasn't a reaction in a broad sense. He just -- he would turn to his attorneys and say something to them from time to time.

One of them was when Michael Cohen walked into the room...

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: ... and then at a couple of other junctures.

But, otherwise, he was pretty stone-faced, really looking straight ahead, at times leaning back. It was...

COATES: Eyes closed different times, yes.

PHILLIP: Eyes closed. It -- the testimony was methodical, is how I would describe it...

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: ... maybe even a little tedious in a way...

COATES: Right.

PHILLIP: ... because so much of what he had to share has already been out there.

But there were also some moments where he added some color commentary, talking about what he was doing at the direction of Donald Trump. I was very interested in his explanation for the recording that he made.

COATES: Yes.

PHILLIP: I thought that was really important for him to answer, because I...

COATES: Because, up until now, everyone thought, well, why would an attorney film his client?

PHILLIP: Yes.

COATES: Why would this be out there?

PHILLIP: There's -- there were a lot of questions about the recording, questions that are raised by the defense, but some questions just in general about, why did he make it?

He answered that. He said he wanted to make it for David Pecker, because David Pecker was getting extremely angry and upset that he hadn't been repaid.

COATES: Did that ring true in the courtroom, for authenticity?

PHILLIP: You know, it's a little hard to say.

The lead-up to it was also another piece of information I thought was very interesting. That trove of information that AMI had on Donald Trump was sitting in a drawer somewhere. And Michael Cohen had just said, under questioning, that he was concerned about what would happen to that information.

David Pecker was being considered for a higher-level job. He was worried that it would get out, that it would be -- that it would get lost. And then, after he said that, that's when he starts being asked about why he was so eager to placate David Pecker.

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: And he says, I wanted to make sure that David remained loyal.

COATES: Hmm. PHILLIP: And I thought that was telling, because there was a power dynamic there, where you have an angry David Pecker, who has known Donald Trump for a long time, but has a lot of power in the media world.

And Michael Cohen wanted him to remain on Donald Trump's side and was concerned that the dispute over repayment for Karen McDougal's story would jeopardize that.

COATES: And we had moments from David Pecker's testimony, right, where he spoke about, one, this idea of him wanting, Trump wanting all the documents to be returned to him, because, in case you get hit by a bus, right?

You had a little inkling of that.

PHILLIP: Yes. Yes.

COATES: And then, of course, Cohen explains more. Well, it was the bus. It was if you move jobs and, more importantly, if this trove would get out.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: It would get out. It was of profound concern to them. It wasn't ever always just Karen McDougal. It was Karen McDougal, plus the other pieces of information that AMI had about Trump.

The other part about the call that was really critical was Trump's use of the word cash...

COATES: Hmm.

PHILLIP: ... when he suggests that Michael Cohen should pay for this in cash. What does that even mean?

It seems obvious colloquially. Cash means cash.

COATES: Right.

PHILLIP: But you could argue, perhaps the defense might have tried to argue that he just meant, don't pay it -- don't finance it. Don't use some kind of financing to pay it back. Just transfer money. So...

[13:25:06]

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: Cohen described, I said, inartfully, financing. I meant...

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Cohen explained that. And it was really important, because he said, I use the word finance, but that's not what I meant. He said, I meant handle the transaction, essentially. And then he said, when Donald Trump said cash, he meant using greens,

dollar bills, which Michael Cohen testified that he believed Trump wanted to do it with actual bills, so that there would not be a paper trail.

That's really important, because it really signifies that Trump wanted to keep this from being papered in any way...

COATES: Right.

PHILLIP: ... not just from being associated with the Trump Organization, but from there being any sort of physical records of these transactions occurring.

COATES: In some ways, he's very prescient. He mentioned that. At one point when Cohen sort of smirked and smiled about the idea of an e- mail address, paper trails...

PHILLIP: Yes. Yes.

COATES: ... and how prosecutors can eventually use it, and we were all sitting in the courtroom realizing, well, prosecutors are looking at different aspects of it.

I was really struck as well by the fact in how his demeanor was.

PHILLIP: Yes.

COATES: I mean, he called him Mr. Trump.

PHILLIP: Yes.

COATES: If you have seen Michael Cohen on news any time in the last several years, he has used less-than-flattering terms to describe him.

PHILLIP: Yes.

COATES: People were wondering, would he be deferential? Would he be respectful? Would he use the actual word Trump or some odd colloquialism?

He talked about Mr. Trump. He almost had a wistfulness about him, didn't he?

PHILLIP: Yes. Yes, I mean, he was reflective about his time...

COATES: He was.

PHILLIP: ... because the whole beginning of the defense -- or -- sorry -- the prosecution's questioning of Michael Cohen was about his upbringing, how he ended up in Trump world.

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: And one of the things about that was that Michael Cohen talked about really thinking it was an amazing job. He left another law firm that he was a part of to go work for Donald

Trump. He was doing work for Donald Trump even before he worked for the Trump Organization and, in some cases, not getting paid. Michael Cohen was working for Trump without even necessarily getting paid in the beginning, which goes to show that there was a desire always to please Trump, to meet his expectations, to take care of things for him.

And he really described that motivation as being absolutely paramount. One of the other things -- and you guys may have discussed this earlier in the program -- but when he talked about...

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: ... not being paid by Trump, another critical piece of information being brought out by the prosecutors, at the end of the day, they have to get to the point of Michael Cohen was repaid not just what he paid the Stormy Daniels story, but he was repaid that and then some.

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: He was paid for the taxes. He was paid over and above what was owed.

COATES: A bonus as well. Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: And what Michael Cohen established very early on was that that was not Donald Trump's practice, that, from the very beginning, he had a $100,000 bill for Donald Trump, and he was told by people who work for Trump, unless you want to get fired on your first day, you might want to forget about it.

COATES: Mm-hmm.

PHILLIP: Trump was not known to just pay bills just because they landed on his desk.

And he established that pretty early on in his testimony during a period of time, by the way, when he was not at odds with Trump at all. He was perfectly satisfied, happy working for him, willing to do this stuff without necessarily getting paid what even he was owed at the time.

COATES: Mm-hmm. It was fascinating.

And, of course, also, Abby, there were others who were actually in the courtroom other than...

PHILLIP: Yes.

COATES: I mean, Eric Trump was there at one point.

PHILLIP: Oh, yes, it was a whole entourage.

COATES: You had members of Congress who were there. PHILLIP: Yes. And it was a very large group. I was talking to some of

the other reporters who go almost every day. Huge group today.

COATES: Yes.

PHILLIP: He really wanted a show of force. And he did.

And as they -- they're walking out, led most of the time by Trump at the very front, stone-faced as they are walking out of the courthouse.

COATES: Fascinating to think, Wolf, of the people who were there and witnessing it.

And, of course, we have a front-row seat history here -- back to you.

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Laura.

Joining us now, George Grasso, who was a New York criminal court judge for more than a decade. He's also been inside the courtroom today.

Judge Grasso, thanks so much for joining us.

What's the most powerful testimony you have heard so far today?

GEORGE GRASSO, FORMER QUEENS COUNTY SUPREME COURT JUDGE: Great to be with you, Wolf.

And I'm glad you asked me that, because I can go right into it. I thought that Michael Cohen overall presented a demeanor where he was cool, calm, collected, and believable. And the most pertinent testimony, to my reading of it and my seeing of it firsthand, is, Michael Cohen is bringing us to a place where, in the immediate aftermath of the "Access Hollywood" tape breaking, when he was in London on October -- on October 7, when that happened, he gets back to New York on October 10.

He's in a phone call with Keith Davidson on the -- in -- while he was still in London, a three-way phone call with Keith Davidson and another person intimately involved, Dylan Howard. And they're talking about the Stormy Daniel (sic) case resurrecting. So, he gets back to New York on October 10.