Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Raid of Marijuana Farm Employing Illegal Immigration Children in California Draws Controversy; President Trump Facing Backlash and Infighting from Some Supporters over Jeffrey Epstein Documents; President Trump Approves Sale of U.S. Defensive Weapons to NATO for Use in Ukraine to Fight against Russian Invasion; President Trump Says He Will Not Fire Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell; Tesla CEO Elon Musk Faces Investor Meeting after Company Stock Falls. Aired 10-11a ET.

Aired July 12, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:00:34]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, ICE raids, protests, chaos, and panic, show of force in California with hundreds arrested. But is Trump losing on immigration when it comes to public opinion?

Also, promises made, promises not kept.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not how you treat your voters.

PHILLIP: Trumps MAGA base is cracking under the weight of broken promises.

Plus, is the bromance over?

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: We get a lot of bull -- thrown at us by Putin.

PHILLIP: Trump is sending weapons to NATO for Ukraine and teasing a big announcement on Monday. Are sanctions next?

And Elon Musk's terrible, horrible, no good, very bad week. Should he listen to his shareholders and get back to business?

Here in studio, Cari Champion, Geoff Duncan, Jillian Michaels, and Bomani Jones.

It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Good morning. I'm Abby Phillip in New York. Let's begin with a question. Is America turning on Donald Trump's immigration policies? It was the central tenet of his campaign. But as the crackdown forges on, support appears to be waning.

Just a quick recap of this week for you. A federal judge blocked his attempt to end birthright citizenship. DHS have allegedly detained at least two legal residents at Alligator, Alcatraz. Senate Democrats released new documents that back up allegations that a DOJ official intended to ignore court orders on deportations. And a new Gallup poll found eight in ten Americans believe immigration is a good thing. That's the most support that there's been in 25 years.

Now, just last summer, that same Gallup poll found 55 percent of Americans wanted to decrease the number of immigrants coming into the country. Now, today, that number is 30 percent. And now even more Americans support giving immigrants in the country legally a pathway to citizenship compared to last June.

Now, this is kind of a surprising result because, I think, Jillian, Trump is correct that he ran on immigration. He probably won on immigration. Americans were fed up with what seemed to be incompetence on the part of the Biden administration in terms of dealing with the border. But the polling is going in the wrong direction. Americans, his approval rating on immigration is not good. And Americans say immigration is good. They want more of it. They want to give illegal immigrants legal status. Why would that be?

JILLIAN MICHAELS, PODCAST HOST "KEEPING IT REAL": Well, the key word, though, is a legal pathway to citizenship. I believe that people don't want to see illegal immigration because it doesn't behoove anyone, including the people that come in illegally. They have no upward mobility. They have no job protections. They are not able to start businesses. And the list goes on and on. It creates resentment amongst citizens that are here, obviously, born here, and people that did it legally. It doesn't behoove anyone.

But I absolutely believe that both parties should stop the finger- pointing and work towards radical immigration reform. I think most people feel that way.

PHILLIP: I agree. I mean, but that's -- and just to be, I just want to clarify one thing. The poll is saying for illegal, people who are here illegally right now, they want to pass citizenship for them.

MICHAELS: AS they should.

BOMANI JONES, HOST, "THE RIGHT TIME WITH BOMANI JONES," PODCAST: The problem is that calling it radical immigration reform is far too broad, because what I see on TV look pretty radical, right? Like, I think people are saying is an application of radical reform that is a little bit terrifying on one level.

I think the other part of it is when you're talking about these deportations or rounding people up, in theory, those aren't actual people. We see all these stories that come out, they're like, hey, man, you just -- we love that woman. She waits our tables at this diner. She's our favorite person. And you just rounded her up.

So these to people now in application, what's become something that they see, it stops being an issue where this boogeyman that's out there. And I think that that has done a great deal to change how people felt. But what they're getting right now is radical immigration reform. And so I don't think its necessarily the time to say we need to get together as much as looking at what that budget looked like from that bill, we got some things we need to chill out on pronto, because I think that this has gotten excessive, and I think most people agree.

PHILLIP: Case in point to what you're saying, there was a story this week about a woman who had been in the country for decades from Iran.

[10:05:03]

And guess who intervened on her behalf? A Republican, Steve Scalise, intervened. She's here illegally. She had an order for deportation, but she was a standup citizen, a mother of citizen children, a wife of a citizen husband. So when it hits close to home, suddenly the same Republicans who are like, deport them all are saying, actually, not this one.

CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Not this one. I like that person. I think that we've heard and people have talked about this, and I'm sure you've talked about this on your show. Joe Rogan, for one, saying I didn't vote for this. We're hearing people say, I didn't vote for this, but that's because its affecting home.

So I'm in California a couple of weeks ago, and a good friend of mine is saying that she is at the park and she is watching how these nannies are feeling as they are actually babysitting, caring for people's children. And they're concerned and they're scared. And whether they hear the boogeyman of ICE coming and they're just leaving the park with the kids in tow because they're afraid for their lives. So this is starting to affect these families, these upper class families, in a lot of ways. And they're seeing how it makes it very scary.

But here is what I don't think we're even talking about. Like I'm reading today and the border czar says, quite simply, all they need is reasonable cause.

PHILLIP: I think we have that sound bite.

CHAMPION: OK.

PHILLIP: Do we have it? If we have it, let's play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: People need to understand ICE officers and Border Patrol, they don't need probable cause to walk up to somebody, briefly detain them, and question them. They just need the totality of the circumstances, right? They just got through their observation, you know get our articulable facts based on the location, the occupation, their physical appearance, their actions. Like if a uniformed Buckingham Palace agent walks up to them at, for instance, a Home Depot, and they got all these articulable facts, plus the person walks away or runs away. You know, agents are trained. What they need to detain somebody temporarily and question them. It's not probable cause. It's reasonable suspicion. We're trained on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHAMPION: "Reasonable suspicion", that, to me, is terrifying, because right now I feel to your point earlier, it's not really affecting me. It's affecting them. But soon it will affect everyone. What does "reasonable suspicion" mean?

PHILLIP: It's you speak Spanish, you're working around a Home Depot.

CHAMPION: But what if it's not. What if someone thinks I'm Ethiopian or Haitian. I go down a list of things. If you're telling me all you need to do, one case, you hear two women speaking Spanish, so they were detained. I speak a little Spanish. What am I supposed to do with that? I think it's getting out of control.

And right now we're all quiet because we hear what's happening. This is what Americans wanted. This is what we voted for. But to me, if one's not safe, we're all not safe.

GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think Americans are waking up to the fact that Donald Trump's administrations immigration focus is on making a point and not making a difference, right? It's making a point, and it's all about a press conference. It's about Kristi Noem getting up there for 15 minutes of fame, talking about a specific issue.

These ICE raids don't make sense in my community. They probably don't make sense in your community to the rational minded folks that are watching how this operates. If somebody is a criminal and a violent criminal or a drug dealer, we all agree we need to do something about that. But if Donald Trump would have just simply reversed Joe Biden's mistakes at the border and worked across the aisle to build an immigration policy that actually made sense, something like a two, five, ten plan. Been here ten years, paid taxes for five years, have two U.S. sponsors, something that grabs the wholesomeness of somebody's effort, not because they crossed the border 20 years ago to try to feed their family, but because they got here and they're trying to figure out the American dream as legally as they can, even though they got here illegally.

But Donald Trump isn't. It's all about the next press conference. It's all about the next tweet. It's all about the next person. This Alligator Alcatraz thing, I mean, try to explain that to your kids at home. Like, what is this about? This is so juxtaposed to what we learn in church, right? Like, you don't treat people like that and talk about -- I mean, you incarcerate somebody if they're a criminal, I understand, but to gallivant, it almost seems barbaric. It is barbaric.

PHILLIP: I'm curious --

MICHAELS: I want to give you the other side here. First of all, obviously Alligator Alley and what's going on there is disturbing. But here's the counterargument. Your pointing fingers, and where was everybody pointing fingers with Obama's cages. But let's go a step further.

PHILLIP: Although I will say people, people did complain about Obama --

MICHAELS: I don't remember this. I remember them canonizing Obama and not really knowing about this because no one talked about it.

PHILLIP: People did complain, especially immigration advocates.

MICHAELS: OK, let's see, let's say that's true. I remember Obama being a hero of the left. He was a hero of mine. I didn't know about these cages until we saw Trump put people in them. Now, with that said, let's look at what just happened, the glass farm, a glass house marijuana farm. Here's what people don't want to see on the other side. They don't want to see people throwing rocks into the cars of federal agents. They don't want to hear that someone supposedly opened fire on them. They also don't want to learn that there are a bunch of kids there that are undocumented or unaccompanied, and they think this is crazy talk, and we should be focusing on that. And I, for one, think, how did those kids get there?

PHILLIP: I just want to add one thing. We do have to go, but the UFW, the United Farm Workers, put out a statement about this. They said "The UFW can confirm farm workers were critically injured yesterday during chaotic raids in Ventura County, California. Others, including U.S. citizens, remain totally unaccounted for. Many workers, including U.S. citizens, were held by federal authorities at the farm for eight hours or more. U.S. citizen workers report only being released after they were forced to delete photos and videos of the raid from their phones. They also added that farmwork work is exempted from child labor laws." So --

MICHAELS: You're telling me undocumented, unaccompanied kids can work at a marijuana farm?

PHILLIP: I'm not saying the undocumented. I'm not talking about the undocumented part. But according to this statement, in this country, not just at farm, and not at marijuana farms at all.

MICHAELS: Don't give me semantics. Look at the reality of what we're talking about. How did an unaccompanied, undocumented 14 year old in the middle of the day --

PHILLIP: Hey, hey, Jillian. Hey, Jillian, I believe, and many people might believe, children should be subject to child labor laws.

MICHAELS: Absolutely.

PHILLIP: But it's true in this country that when it comes to agricultural work, they're not. And that includes marijuana farms. So the legality of their status is a separate issue. But the fact of children being there is not actually something that is necessarily illegal.

MICHAELS: I have a really hard time believing that.

PHILLIP: So there's that. So it's not unusual for there to be teenagers in working in a farm.

MICHAELS: A 14-year-old can work at a marijuana growing --

PHILLIP: It doesn't matter whether it's a marijuana farm or an apple farm.

MICHAELS: Kids can't work in a bar.

PHILLIP: It's agriculture. They're not smoking it.

MICHAELS: If that's the law, that's outrageous and should be changed.

PHILLIP: They're cultivating it.

The point is, the point is this incident, and we're still learning a lot more about it, was very dangerous and put a lot of people, including ICE officers and those immigrants in danger.

MICHAELS: Don't attack federal law enforcement agents.

PHILLIP: Hey, I agree with you, but the tactics are producing chaos and violence.

MICHAELS: They are.

PHILLIP: And I think that that is one of the things that's caused people.

CHAMPION: The tactics --

MICHAELS: Who attached first, that's my question.

PHILLIP: And we don't know. We will find out.

DUNCAN: It seems like there's a questionable call because they're making them delete photos and videos on their phones. So I'm guessing there's going to be a more complete story as to what's going on.

PHILLIP: We will find out, everybody. Thank you for that.

Coming up next for us, MAGA fans brought President Trump into office. But now some are extremely unhappy about the administration's actions, and they're making their voices heard.

Plus, President Trump says that he'll send patriot missiles through NATO to Ukraine after his administration stopped those shipments. So what's behind this change? We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:17:26]

PHILLIP: President Trump is facing backlash and infighting from some of his biggest supporters after shifting on key pillars of his MAGA base on Ukraine. Trump greenlighting weapons to Kyiv. And then there's immigration, with farmers worried about labor shortages. Trump also softening his stance on the migrant workforce.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW SCHULZ, HOST, "FLAGRANT": He'll DM me and be like you see what you see what your boy is doing? You voted for this. I'm like, I voted for none of this. He's doing the exact opposite of everything I voted for. I want him to stop the wars. He's funding them. I want him to shrink spending, reduce the budget. He's increasing it. It's like everything that he said he's going to do except sending immigrants back. And now he's even flipflopped on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And of course, on Jeffrey Epstein, fury and fallout after a DOJ memo concluded that the convicted sex offender died by suicide and that a not so -- that a so-called client list just does not exist at all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX JONES, HOST, "THE ALEX JONES SHOW": It's just absolute horse on its face, and it's a disaster. For someone doing so much good and then for them to do something like this tears my guts out.

LIZ WHEELER, HOST, "THE LIZ WHEELER SHOW": His administration has lost a tremendous amount of goodwill with voters because people care viscerally about the Epstein files.

JACK POSOBIEC, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: We were told there was new information on Epstein. It wasn't. We were told that more information was coming. There wasn't. You claimed that you had the list on your desk. You didn't. And none of it came out.

LAURA LOOMER, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: I mean, look, at the end of the day, we were promised one thing, and we have not received that promise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Jillian, I'm going to come to you again on this, because we've already talked. I know that you yourself don't understand the Epstein of it all, but how much of this do you think the MAGA base can take?

MICHAELS: I think they're super p.o.ed about it, without a question. I mean, as mentioned, he campaigned on this, and I do believe that there's a list. I don't know if you saw Alan Dershowitz coming out saying he knows there's a list, that he's been silenced and he can't talk about it.

PHILLIP: Dershowitz is an interesting character on that.

MICHAELS: Fair enough. But he's even saying that he was on it. He had the right to defend himself. And he thinks people have been accused. It should come out so they can defend themselves. Irregardless of what his relationship is to Epstein or that list, I think there is a friggin list. And I think that we deserve to see it. I think there should be a data dump. And you make that promise. You run on it.

CHAMPION: What happens when we see the list? What will happen then?

MICHAELS: Honestly? Who -- just give me the information from the first lawsuit. So Epstein got federal immunity. He had an NPA, non- prosecution agreement.

[10:20:01]

How did he get that? And there are four other people that got that with them. Who are they?

PHILLIP: It's so interesting.

MICHAELS: Who is trafficking kids along with this guy? I want to know.

PHILLIP: It's interesting that some of the very people that were obviously on the outside, right? They were banging this drum so hard. They're now on the inside. And one of them is Dan Bongino. I want to play what he said about this issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN BONGINO, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: The question surrounding this alleged suicide are numerous and are worth entertaining and worth getting to the bottom of quickly.

What the hell are they hiding with Jeffrey Epstein? Why do they want to make this Jeffrey Epstein story go away so bad?

I'm not ever going to let this story go because of what I heard from a source about Bill Clinton on a plane with Jeffrey Epstein. I'm not letting it go ever, ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: OK, so that same Dan Bongino also said, now that he is the number two at the FBI, that he knows Epstein killed himself and that he's taking all this incoming. CNN reporting that he's considering stepping down. I mean, is it because he's worried about the backlash toward him for kind of now toeing the Trump administration line on this?

DUNCAN: Is anybody surprised? I mean, we're using this Jeffrey Epstein thing as like the pinnacle sin of Donald Trump. But, you know, let's go back to some bigger issues. He promised us $2 trillion worth of DOGE cuts that imploded on the launch pad, pun intended. He told us that he was going to cut the debt, and now we're $3 trillion in debt. I mean, he said the wars would be over, and yet now he's best friends with Putin until a couple of days ago. I mean, he's been running a Ponzi scheme of propaganda for a decade, or longer if you did business with him. Thank God I didn't.

PHILLIP: But I mean, to that to your point, none of those other things are registering at the level of this Epstein thing for whatever reason.

DUNCAN: That's because the base is brainwashed.

PHILLIP: But like, you're so right.

CHAMPION: I don't agree with you at all on that.

PHILLIP: They can't even get $9 billion, which is like a rounding error, through Congress in terms of spending cuts.

JONES: The thing about Epstein and that issue is, throughout decades, the right has been very good at throwing issues out and waiting to see if they found one that sticks. That's how they wound up with abortion, right? Falwell and those guys, it wasn't like there was this groundswell. They found an issue that really riled people up and galvanized folks. Cool.

The next one that came down is the idea of trafficking, trafficking children, right? Regardless of how factual the basis is or the example that you point up, that's the one that sticks. And so the Epstein thing, especially since, come on, man. You all, just it's a big old come on man story. Like there's at one level or another, you lie to people's faces, and people know at some point you lie to their faces. They take that personally. They're not going to let it slide. But you hit the biggest thing. Everything has been a turnaround. And the original question was, how much can the base take? And the answer is, what are you going to do about it?

CHAMPION: Well, he said the base was brainwashed. What do you mean? Are they OK with this? They're not OK with this.

DUNCAN: I've watched the Republican Party -- no, I think at their core they're not OK with it. But I think, you know, they're sitting there staring at their one little issue. And I wrote this opinion piece a couple weeks ago in "The Atlanta Journal Constitution" that said, if you knew then what you knew now, would you still vote for Donald Trump? And an overwhelming majority of Republicans would still vote for Donald Trump?

But he didn't win by an overwhelming majority. I mean, the Electoral College worked his way better than the overall vote count.

MICHAELS: He won the popular vote.

DUNCAN: This is the opportunity.

MICHAELS: By 5 million votes.

DUNCAN: Well, 5 million. Do you think 5 million people are off about DOGE imploding and $3 trillion worth of debt?

MICHAELS: It was a huge red wave. Let's not take that away. JONES: It was. It was a huge red wave --

BENSON: The point is, Donald Trump doesn't have that much leash to keep doing this.

MICHAELS: But you have to look at the fact that it was a red wave if you're going to ask the question about why. And if the Democrats want to regain power, they're going to have to look at the fact that it was a pretty big red wave.

DUNCAN: This is this golden opportunity --

MICHAELS: And I can give you the truth about the Epstein list.

DUNCAN: This is the golden opportunity. If they if they moderate, they will have an opportunity on the 2026 cycle going into 2028 to make a huge dent, because Donald Trump is foot faulting every minute of every day.

CHAMPION: Foot faulting every minute, that's the point.

PHILLIP: Coming up, President Trump once said Vladimir Putin was a very smart guy. And now Trump thinks that the Russian president is, quote, throwing B.S., and is resuming aid to Ukraine. We'll discuss that change next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:28:43]

PHILLIP: President Trump is a little bit annoyed with Vladimir Putin, and he is sending American missiles to show it. He announced that he struck a deal to send U.S. weapons, which he calls defensive, to Ukraine through NATO. Trump told NBC News that while the U.S. will send the patriot missile systems, NATO will pay for those weapons 100 percent. He also added that he's, quote, disappointed in Russia, and he teased a major announcement coming Monday.

The president previously said that the U.S. should stop providing support to Ukraine. So why is he doing this now? Well, here's the reasoning that he laid out earlier this week Putin is not.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: Putin is not, he's not treating human beings right. He's killing too many people. So we're sending some defensive weapons to Ukraine. And I've approved that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: The part of this that is perplexing is, why did it take him so long to figure this out?

JONES: Who talked to him last? The answer to the question is, who talked to him last?

PHILLIP: I don't know, because Putin has been killing people for some time now.

MICHAELS: This is true, but there definitely were off ramps that I think we didn't take previously.

CHAMPION: Such as?

MICHAELS: How about in 2022 when they tried to revive the Minsk Accords and we pushed for Ukraine to join NATO. Like, there were offramps and we didn't encourage them. Do you think -- do you think we took --

PHILLIP: Meaning that we should not have encouraged Ukraine to join NATO, is that what you're saying?

MICHAELS: I honestly think, do you remember the "nyet means nyet" memo that was leaked through Wikileaks, where Condoleezza Rice was informed, I believe, by Burns, who was the head of the CIA, do not push this. And if you. And if you recall, we promised that we would not move NATO one inch to the east, and we added like 14 countries, and put it on. We knew it was a hard red line.

PHILLIP: So this is why this is the sort of generic like Putin wouldn't have done this if --

MICHAELS: I'm not saying you wouldn't have. I'm not saying you wouldn't have

PHILLIP: NATO had not encroached.

MICHAELS: But I'm saying that we had far more leverage in 2022 than we do.

PHILLIP: If you listen to Vladimir Putin, if you listen to him around that time, he is very clear Ukraine is not a real place. It is a part of Russia. Russia has a divine reason to inhabit this territory that is its own country. Putin has never believed that Ukraine has a right to exist, and the only person that did not seem to believe that psychology of Vladimir Putin is Donald Trump for all of these years.

But now -- actually, I want to play this, because you can really see how much Trump believed for a very long time that he could rely on some personal kinship that maybe he had with Putin. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: So now I like Putin. Now, Putin called me a genius, by the way.

They asked me, is Putin smart? Yes, Putin was smart.

I mean, Putin, and I got along well.

He's a very smart guy.

I've always had a good relationship with Putin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Putin is a former KGB officer. He does not want to be friends with Donald Trump.

MICHAELS: But there was more leverage then.

PHILLIP: And I don't know why.

MICHAELS: There was more leverage in 2022. You have less now.

DUNCAN: I didn't hear that on the campaign trail. I heard the war was going to end in 24 hours.

MICHAELS: You're absolutely right. He made promises that he couldn't keep. I agree.

DUNCAN: And what I also heard was on Vladimir Putin, I think Mike Pence is the only one who really got it right this week when he said Vladimir Putin doesn't want peace, he wants Ukraine. And that's the bottom line. But Donald Trump is playing checkers. Vladimir Putin is playing chess. And the problem is thousands of people are dying every week, if not every day.

MICHAELS: Did Biden solve this problem. I'm just curious.

DUNCAN: I'm not talking about Joe Biden.

(CROSS TALK)

MICHAELS: It's convenient because Biden also did not solve the problem.

CHAMPION: What are you talking about convenient?

DUNCAN: Absolutely -- I want to answer your question spot on. Absolutely Joe Biden did not solve the war, but Donald Trump came in under the premise that he would end the war in 24 hours.

MICHAELS: You're absolutely right.

DUNCAN: He's allowed thousands, hundreds of thousands of lives while he's been just playing this game.

And the other thing I want to address is this whole notion that he gets a hall pass for letting Hegseth pull these weapons without knowing, right. He is the head of the company, like he's in charge. Nobody in an organization should have the right to go pull weapons from somebody as important as Ukraine in a region as important as that without talking to the president. And if he isn't talking to the president, then what else, what other decisions are they making? Once again, wrong people, wrong jobs.

CHAMPION: And respectfully, I don't understand the argument, like what did Barack do? What did Biden do? We're talking about what's happening right now currently. And I understand it's easy to set up and say what was wrong. There was a lot wrong when Barack was in office, there was a lot -- no, no, no, there was a lot wrong when Barack was in office and Biden was in office. But every argument can't be, did Barack do something. This man, when was the last time Barack was in office?

MICHAELS: Well, let's talk --

CHAMPION: But no, my point being is that he's going to end the war in 24 hours, and he did not. And the response should be --

MICHAELS: You're right about that.

MICHAELS: And the response shouldn't be, what did everybody do previous and before him?

(CROSS TALK)

PHILLIP: Trump is about to , he's about to do what Biden was doing.

MICHAELS: He's not, though, because the taxpayer isn't paying for it.

PHILLIP: He could be putting on --

(CROSS TALK)

MICHAELS: That's not what he's saying. If it goes the other way.

DUNCAN: How's that wall in Mexico going.

PHILLIP: I don't see the difference in the policy, essentially.

MICHAELS: What does that have to do? If you want to debate that, we can.

DUNCAN: He said Mexico is going to pay for the wall. Not only did they not pay for the wall, but we didn't build it. It's all rhetoric. It's all propaganda.

MICHAELS: Let's find out if it is. Right now --

DUNCAN: They lose another couple hundred thousand lives, it's worth the.

MICHAELS: -- you're guessing at this.

JONES: Hold on. Let me guess.

PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me let her finish. And then you can jump in.

MICHAELS: Well, right now would Trump what people were really upset about is they didn't want their taxpayer dollars going to send weapons over to Ukraine. He's currently avoiding that with this strategy of having NATO buy the weapons.

PHILLIP: I don't --

MICHAELS: I don't think so. Thats what he's literally saying. That's verbatim what he has said.

PHILLIP: It's a clever way that Trump is getting himself to do this because he doesn't like to pay for anything, so he don't want to pay for the weapons.

MICHAELS: I don't want pay for them. Do you want pay for them?

PHILLIP: The United States is providing the weapons. And you're right, it is not popular --

MICHAELS: No, but the taxpayer isn't funding it.

DUNCAN: I'd rather pay for U.S. weapons to go there than have to watch troops --

MICHAELS: Well, most Americans don't agree with you.

DUNCAN: -- have to go defend.

(CROSS TALK)

MICHAELS: They don't agree with you.

JONES: Our question, though, was how did we get here? And what took Trump so long to recognize this? And this is a, however you say that raises a situation. And it seems very simple. Putin did something that made him feel bad.

CHAMPION: That's it.

JONES: Right?

CHAMPION: Hurt his feelings.

JONES: Somewhere along the way, I don't know whether it was a conversation they had. I don't know if it was something he read. Putin did something that made him feel bad. And when you do something that makes him feel bad, all of a sudden, he becomes a humanitarian. All these people are dying. It hurts my heart because somebody did something that made me feel --

[10:35:05]

MICHAELS: Totally disagree with you. He wanted them to stop dying and he tried diplomacy first. You have a psycho --

JONES: Have a presumption of the goodness of Donald Trump. Donald Trump is the nicest person I have ever met.

MICHAELS: Donald Trump is an -- did Trump start a new war.

PHILLIP: She is a Trump supporter. So she is entitled to presume his goodness.

MICHAELS: I not presuming --

DUNCAN: What happened in that Oval Office with Zelenskyy was not diplomacy. That was an embarrassment for the American people.

CHAMPION: It was.

PHILLIP: All right, up next for us, President Trump is now saying that he will not fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell. But that doesn't mean that he's not angry at him. We'll discuss that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:40:28]

PHILLIP: This morning, will he or won't he? After weeks of floating the idea of firing Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell, President Trump now says that he has no plans to do so. But he isn't exactly de- escalating the attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- fire Jerome Powell.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: No. I think he's doing a terrible job. I think we should be --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you going to fire him?

TRUMP: No. I think we should be three points lower interest rate. He's costing our country a lot of money. We should be number one. And we're not. And that's because of Jerome Powell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: So, according to CNN's reporting, here's the reason why he's apparently comprehended that he shouldn't do this. "The primary reason for Trumps reticence to act against Powell is the expectation that any move would immediately trigger a significant market sell off." The markets are already not so thrilled with all of the rollercoaster that they've been on. This would send them into a tizzy.

JONES: That's the funniest part. Anytime something like this happens to Trump, somebody has called him and said, this is going to tank the stock market, which is the one thing that he uses in his mind to decide economic strength, right? Because that's the thing that people hit immediately. Like, you are messing up America's money. Once you mess with that. He's not going to fire him. But as soon as this term is over, he's out of there. And it is terrifying to think about what's going to happen after that.

PHILLIP: It'll be interesting to see who they put in, because there's been a lot of rumors that it would be essentially somebody who works in the White House, right?

CHAMPION: Well, to your point, someone told him you shouldn't do it. It's really interesting because we, throughout the entire show, we've been talking about he said, I'm doing this. This is what he wanted to do. And then he turns around at whatever, at whatever reason, someone hurt his feelings, he doesn't like the person, and he changes his mind.

I think he is great at marketing, great at running a campaign, great at being in front of the camera. Like there is a -- there's just like this magnetism that he has. We've seen him when he was Apollo, or excuse me, "Apprentice," "You're fired."

But he is horrible at governing, and it is so very clear, and no one even talks about it. No one is calling him out about it. He leads with fear. He bullies. I know you think he's a great humanitarian in ways in which --

MICHAELS: I don't think --

CHAMPION: Or a good human in ways in which I just don't understand.

MICHAELS: I just think he's anti-war.

CHAMPION: OK, he could be anti-war, but at the same time, he's also anti-government in terms of governing. He does not know.

MICHAELS: He's allowed to criticize Powell. When someone doesn't agree with him, they're allowed to do it.

CHAMPION: Yes, but you can't have a temper tantrum. You've got to run this country based on what is right. You can't have a temper tantrum because you don't like what you're hearing, and no one's falling in line because you're raising your fist and --

DUNCAN: But I will say --

MICHAELS: He can and he does. Whether it's right or wrong, you know, whether you like it or not, you obviously have the ability to vote. But let's talk about why people voted for Trump.

CHAMPION: Why?

MICHAELS: Because they cannot afford credit, can't buy a car.

CHAMPION: They voted for him to get all those things.

MICHAELS: To buy a house. But when he's saying this is bananas, seven percent interest rate and the average person can't buy a house or a car, that resonates.

CHAMPION: Was that a problem with him in the 100 days when he was tanking the economy, doing for his own good.

MICHAELS: The economy is actually doing fine right. Let's be fair.

PHILLIP: The economy is doing well, but you know what's interesting? I think if Trump left the tariff issue alone interest rates would be lower right now.

DUNCAN: Absolutely. Powell even so much as said it.

PHILLIP: He basically said that. (LAUGHTER)

(CROSS TALK)

PHILLIP: If he just left it alone, the economy would be probably taking off. Interest rates would be going down. But he's kicked the can down the road on some of the other stuff. But then just this week he says 50 percent tariff on Brazil, 35 percent tariff on Canada. Every week brings a new headline on tariffs. And that is why Jerome Powell ain't moving.

DUNCAN: You ask anybody that's important in the banking industry who you want making their interest rate decisions, Jerome Powell or Donald Trump or Donald Trump's sock puppet, right, it's a guarantee. If it was just as easy as lowering interest rates to make cheaper cars, then we should just be at zero, and then we would never worry about inflation. But history shows us that that doesn't work very well.

I want to be a peacemaker here. I've got an idea. OK. Maybe Donald Trump will hear this. If he just simply makes a press release or sends a Truth Social post and says, hey, I'm going to walk away from these tariffs, I bet you next week Jerome Powell drops interest rates, guaranteed. It's that simple.

MICHAELS: I don't think that's actually a good idea. No, we could we could debate his strategy on tariffs.

CHAMPION: Which part. The whole thing.

MICHAELS: I think that there are very legitimate reasons. And in fact, hold on a second. The Democrats kept his tariffs and even expanded them.

PHILLIP: On China. OK, 50 percent tariffs on Brazil because he doesn't like the way Bolsonaro is being treated is completely off the deep end.

MICHAELS: What about the legitimate issues though?

PHILLIP: We've got to go.

MICHAELS: Gosh.

PHILLIP: All right, coming up next for us, as the saying goes, money doesn't buy you happiness.

[10:45:01]

But just ask billionaire Elon Musk about his pretty rough month in the business and in his political life as well. We'll discuss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: It has not been a great month for Elon Musk in a year of several pretty bad months for the world's richest man.

[10:50:01]

To start with, the bill, he called a disgusting abomination was signed into law. He started a new political party, prompting Trump to call him a train wreck. The chatbot that he called significantly improved, well, it started calling itself "MechaHitler." OK. His ex CEO said that she was leaving the platform after two years in the role. And now, after his shareholders expressed concerns over declining sales and falling stock prices, Tesla has finally set a date for an investor meeting. That's sort of like the principal calling you into the office.

DUNCAN: Who could trouble any of this coming? I mean, it just all made so much sense. Eighteen months ago, we didn't know if Elon Musk was a Democrat or Republican. But I will argue that in the last 12 months, he's done more damage to this country than anybody in our country's history.

He took $250 million and tipped the scales on an election. He uprooted government agencies for no reason other than just an ego and to get a press clipping or a Twitter post, just -- and then walked away from it. He's done incredible damage to this country, to our brand as America, around the world. And for what? For what?

PHILLIP: I mean, I think it's so underappreciated the degree to which doge slashed and burned its way through the federal government, saving, as far as we can tell, virtually no money. And in fact, perhaps costing the government a lot of money because they have to pay people that are who are not working, things are not getting done. Unwinding these things is actually costing the government money. I mean, that's just the beginning of it.

But Tesla is also tanking as a company, and the shareholders, this used to be one of the most valuable stocks in the stock market. And it's struggling.

JONES: It also doesn't help that Trump stuck it to him with the bill and the E.V. mandate getting dropped out of this.

PHILLIP: I mean that's why I mean, Trump thinks that this is why Elon's mad.

CHAMPION: I'm really curious because you said you said Elon Musk. And I want to make sure I heard you right. Elon Musk is what, again, he is, in your opinion, you said he was the single biggest problem to our economy?

DUNCAN: Yes, I think he's done more damage to this country than anybody that we've seen. I mean, or potentially, unless I'm missing somebody in history that's just as destructive.

CHAMPION: No, no, no. I'm curious as to why it's just him. Now that he's not there, because in fact, I felt like he was taking a lot of flak for Donald Trump. I think he was the cover. I think there were a lot of issues that were happening that Donald Trump was giving yes to and then Elon was taking a lot of the heat. Now that he's not there, are we still blaming him because in fact, he had the power to do so. He was the first buddy, right?

DUNCAN: Yes, absolutely. He had more power than anybody else.

CHAMPION: OK. So is it is it his fault that he was able to run amok, if you will? Who gave him the power to do so?

DUNCAN: I think Donald Trump did. Donald Trump just fell asleep at the wheel when he was on the campaign trail. It was the perfect two- step, right? It was Donald Trump saying he was going to cut everybody's taxes that had a heartbeat, and Elon Musk was going to cut $2 trillion worth of taxes, and nothing was going to be bothered by it. Then all of a sudden the DOGE cuts --

CHAMPION: I'm like, lets just say what it is. I can't just give it to him only.

JONES: But I do think, though, that if you dial it back to the work that he did in the to get Donald Trump elected, then you do point right back to Elon Musk.

DUNCAN: Absolutely, absolutely.

JONES: Like the level of money that he put in.

DUNCAN: Yes, $250 million to just buy a country club membership at the White House.

JONES: Yes, I think --

(CROSS TALK)

PHILLIP: Jillian, where does this, where does --

MICHAELS: Are we going to talk about how much Elon gave Trump? Because Kamala got more money from more billionaires.

CHAMPION: Kamala.

JONES: But we're not talking about billionaires. We're talking about him.

DUNCAN: One person, one person.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: I don't think there's any single individual --

MICHAELS: There are billionaires that run the show across the board.

PHILLIP: I don't think there's any single individual who has perhaps ever given more in a single election cycle than Elon did in this last.

MICHAELS: She still got a ton more money.

JONES: No, but I don't think but I don't think the point that's being made -- PHILLIP: One guy.

JONES: -- is about simply that a billionaire did it. It was also the effectiveness of this particular billionaire in where his money went in swing states. I just think --

MICHAELS: I think you underestimate --

JONES: -- we need to point out something Very important. "The New York Times" did a whole article about how high that man --

MICHAELS: Because "The New York Times" is not biased ever.

JONES: -- was all the time. And that was his response -- that was his response in the Oval Office with the most docile press crew I have ever seen with a bombshell report that came out after somebody. In line we're talking about his businesses. Can you imagine the CEO of any other company having that come out? And now you've got to answer to the investors.

MICHAELS: I think you're giving Elon a lot of credit.

DUNCAN: Elon Musk go bored making money and decided he wanted power. That's what this came down to. He got bored making money, and he decided he wanted power. And he got it for $250 million. It's probably the cheapest buy he's made to be that powerful.

PHILLIP: We've got to go. All right, wouldn't be the first rich guy to find out politics is a little harder than they thought.

Well, everyone, thank you very much. Up next, I've been working on something that I'd like to tell you about. But first, a programing note. Don't miss the premiere of CNN original series "Billionaires Boys Club. It goes inside a shocking true story of a 1980s greed and murder. And it airs on Sunday at 10:00 p.m. on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:59:25]

PHILLIP: And before we go, I have a special announcement for you. My debut book, "A Dream Deferred, Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power," it will be released this fall on October 28th. This is a book about a very important piece of American political history. It's the story of Jackson's two fascinating and groundbreaking presidential campaigns in 1984 and 1988. Those insurgent campaigns shocked the Democratic establishment and drew tens of thousands of people to Jackson's rallies across the country. And his campaign changed the Democratic Party. They supercharged black political power in America and paved the way for the country to finally elect the first black president, Barack Obama.

This book takes another look at Jacksons political legacy more than 40 years later, and I cannot wait for you all to read it. So scan that QR code on your screen and preorder today. I appreciate it. And thank you for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every

weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our News Night roundtable and any time on your favorite social media X, Instagram, and TikTok. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.