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CNN Live Event/Special

CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Trump Administration Officials and Republicans Downplay Weak Jobs Numbers for August Economic Report; New York City Mayoral Candidate Zohran Mamdani Challenges President Trump to Debate; Leaders of China, Russia, North Korea, and India Hold Summit; Trump Administration Tariffs and Foreign Policy Possibly Hurting American Businesses and Brands around Globe; Heritage Foundation Reportedly Drafting Suggestions to Increase U.S. Population While Criticizing IVF and Same-Sex Marriage. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired September 06, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Today, Donald Trump's economy is no longer bulletproof, and his goalposts keep moving or disappearing altogether.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you going to believe the numbers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Numbers always tend to benefit the left.

PHILLIP: Plus, the president wants to silence New York's socialist.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I'd prefer not to have a communist mayor of New York City.

PHILLIP: But what happens if America wants to listen?

Also, a show of force through a parade of despots. What should the west make of their flex? And how will they use their muscle?

And married with children -- the group that brought you Project 2025 wants to talk about sex. But there's a catch.

Here in studio Van Jones, Gail Huff Brown, Cari Champion, and Hal Lambert.

It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Hello everyone. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

The lights are flashing red for Donald Trump's economy, but he and his allies are echoing Orwell by telling you they're actually green. The nation adding just 22,000 jobs in August and a revised number shows the labor market actually lost jobs in June. And take a closer look at who is losing work here -- black workers, Hispanics, and manufacturing workers, the very sector that Trump claims that he is making hotter than ever. Nine months into his term, and five since everyone was liberated, supposedly, the president's tariff wars are starting to take their toll on the economy. But if you listen to MAGA, it's either somebody else's fault or just fake numbers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: One of the things we know is that they've been really at BLS, struggling with bad response rates.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it's their fault?

HASSETT And so, I'd say that this number, we expect this number will be revised up.

HOWARD LUTNICK, SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: I think they'll get better because you'll take out the people who are just trying to create noise against the president.

LORI CHAVEZ-DEREMER, SECRETARY OF LABOR: Jerome Powell should be embarrassed by this report because he has not done his job.

REP. RANDY FINE, (R-FL): I'm going to, I'm going to look at the numbers. Look, the people who put these numbers together are human and they're fallible and they make mistakes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It wasn't that they make mistakes.

FINE: The numbers always tend to benefit the left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: When the numbers are good, they're good. When the numbers are bad, they're not real.

But I really want to focus on what Trump has said the theory of the case is, Hal, which is that if he does all this stuff, he gets his tariffs, they're going to bring back jobs in the manufacturing sector, they're going to -- the economy is going to be booming again. We know that, especially when it comes to jobs, that hasn't been the case. But on manufacturing in particular, for months straight of job losses in that industry. Where is the boom for American manufacturing that he promised?

HAL LAMBERT, POINT BRIDGE CAPITAL FOUNDER AND CEO: Well, this is one month number. Let's be clear about that.

PHILLIP: I'm talking about the last four months.

LAMBERT: But, yes, the tariffs went into effect earlier this year. It's going to take time. This stuff doesn't happen overnight. And remember there have been people talking down this economy ever since Trump was nominated and elected. And back in April if you recall when the tariffs first started coming out, everyone said, we're going to go into a recession. The stock market sold off. And then what's happened? We're hitting record highs. It hit a new record high today before it closed down. It hit new record high after these numbers.

There's still over 7 million job openings in this country right now. Unemployment is at 4.3 percent. That's pretty much full employment historically. So yes, it's one number. But at the end of the day we have a 3.3 percent GDP number in the second quarter. That's a big number. We've got corporate profits are at record levels, which does go down to hiring workers and doing more things. So I don't think this number is anything to panic about at all. It's not a good number. I'm not going to say it was a good number. We want to have higher job numbers out there. But also what's happening as well is we're not hiring more government workers. So a lot of the jobs in the past administration were hiring new government workers to work in the federal government. That's not happening this time either. So I'd give it a little more time than just a few months.

PHILLIP: Yes, I do think time is warranted, right? I mean, obviously nothing happens overnight. But if the argument was the economy was so terrible under Joe Biden, and it was going to be so much better under Donald Trump, that's not showing up in the numbers. It's not also showing up in just people's experiences, because if people are losing jobs, if you're a black woman or a black worker in America, your unemployment rate has gone up a full percentage point since Joe Biden was president. So for a lot of Americans, they're experiencing this economy very differently than from what Donald Trump promised.

[10:05:03]

GAIL HUFF BROWN, (R) FORMER CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, NEW HAMPSHIRE: I look at this also from just a, you know, bread and butter standpoint, what's happening to people out there that are going to the grocery store, going to the gas station. This morning, I filled up my car $2.63 a gallon for gas. In 2022, I was spending over $5 for a gallon. Home heating oil -- I live in New Hampshire. It gets freezing cold and I spend a lot of money on oil, and oil prices are down. That is the sort of thing that I think people look at also, and they say, well, we have to look at the economy as a whole.

And yes, we are only eight, nine months into this administration. We were told at the very beginning that there was going to be a lot of pain at the beginning. But we have to look at reciprocating tariffs as an opportunity to make a level playing field.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's leveling something, leveling a lot of opportunity.

One of the things I find very interesting is when I talk to young people, I think neither political party has dialed in to the fact that you have young people who graduated off of a cliff into an economy that has no space for them at all. Record unemployment numbers among our college graduates, these are kids that stayed out of trouble. These are kids that did what they were told. These are the kids who turned in their homework on time and now cannot find a job in Trump's economy. It's remarkable because young people actually overperformed for Trump compared to other generations.

And so I do think it's easy to point to some of the positive numbers you're talking about, but I'm talking to real folks. And they are not as happy about the price of eggs as they are sad about their own economic prospects still going down.

CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think what you touched on earlier is where I can only speak to from my point of view, and I want to talk about arguably one of the most -- and I won't argue this, but some will, one of the most educated and entrepreneurial groups of people, which are black women who are suffering, 300 plus thousand jobs lost so far within these few months.

And it's, to me, disturbing, because if you think about the money spent, the aspects of business being built, it comes largely from a group of very, what I would like to call smart, intelligent, forward looking black women. And I look at them and they tell me that they're suffering. I can't look at the numbers and say, oh, it's OK. There's a sports show. You all may remember this. Numbers never lie. These numbers, 300,000 plus black women without a job in six months, numbers never lie. And so when I think of that, we're in trouble. We're not heading in the right way. And I don't know if anyone could argue and say, oh, it's about DEI. Once they remove that, we don't have people working. But the reality is it's a scary place out there.

JONES: And I want to add, you're correct that, you know, the cutbacks on public sector that does have an impact. I think there may have been an unintended consequence, though. My generation, I'm in my 50s. A lot of African-American women in my generation, they didn't feel that they were going to be welcomed in the corporate sector. The hiring wasn't there. So what did they do? They went into the public sector. You're talking about women who are homeowners who have one, two, or three advanced degrees, who are voters, super voters. They're churchgoers. The people that you would love, who decided, I'm going to go work for America's government and do a good job there.

Those are the people that DOGE cuts wiped out in large numbers. I'm not saying it was intentional, but the reality is those women are now looking at possible homelessness, foreclosure. They didn't do anything wrong in their lives, but somehow their contributions aren't welcome. And so that 300,000 number, we're not just trying to play the race card here. It's just this is the backbone of the black middle class. These are the people that you like, I like, we all respect that are suffering.

CHAMPION: But then you use the word "intentional", not to say that it wasn't intentional, but it could have been. It could have been. And as a result, we're finding ourselves asking these questions. And he's talking about the federal workforce cuts. I know people who have -- you talk about young folks. I know women who have lost their jobs, who own homes, who pay their taxes, who are law abiding citizens, who in some cases are single parent households. And what do they do? They've been told this is it for them, and they don't have anything left. And that's a really unfair place to be, especially imagine being in your mid 50s and starting all over again. What am I supposed to do now?

PHILLIP: But broadly for the American people, I mean, Trump is on some shaky ground -- 37 percent approve of his handling of the economy. Those are very low marks. It's lower, actually, than President Biden. And that is going to be a problem for him, because at the end of the day, he ran on that. He won on the economy.

Gail, you were talking about pain. He said once he was elected that there would be pain. But when he was running, he said he would turn the economy around. So how much longer do you think Americans are going to give him?

LAMBERT: Well, I think they do need to give him some time. And again, numbers, as we just talked about inflation on certain household items and gasoline and all that has come down. So the costs of that have come down. That was the first thing he wanted to do to spur the economy. Now it's to bring manufacturing back to the United States and spur job growth in the United States.

[10:10:02]

We have billions of dollars. Remember he negotiating in these trade deals, billions and billions, hundreds of billions of dollars from foreign governments that are going to come into this country to invest here, as well as private sector coming to invest in this country. So I think these job numbers are going to get better. And when you first do some things, there is some pain as, as President Trump said there would be. But I think he even said today, I think, you know, let's give it another, give it another year and well see where we are this time next year. So --

PHILLIP: By that point, it's going to be a tricky time for Republicans, because you talk about, listen, I think some costs are going down, but other costs are going up. So this is this is an economy, right. It's not any -- you can't cherry pick this stuff. You know, home heating oil might be going down. Electricity prices are going up.

So when you look at the whole of what Americans are experiencing, they're asking, am I better off today than I was a year ago? And when you look at some of the big picture indicators of the economy, job creation has slowed to a trickle. It doesn't -- we don't have to fall off a cliff to be approaching a recession. We can just be slowing down. Job creation is slowing down. People are growing concerned about their businesses, their viability. Prices are ticking up. These are red flashing lights for Trump. And I'm not sure that they're aware -- I'm not sure that they're acknowledging the risks here for them, both politically and practically for the economy.

BROWN: But the unemployment rate right now is 4.3 percent, which is historically low.

PHILLIP: Yes. But it's -- I mean, the question is about what direction is it heading in?

LAMBERT: Can you please call Jerome Powell and tell him at the Fed.

BROWN: I was going to say, because you want you --

LAMBERT: -- the Fed because we need someone so see these red flashing lights. PHILLIP: The irony of this all is that Jerome Powell was probably going to lower rates anyway at the next Fed meeting, at the next Fed meeting. Now he might be doing it because there's a problem in the economy, not just because the time has come. So in any case, we'll be revisiting a lot of this.

But coming up next, the socialist candidate pitches a debate against Donald Trump. Question is, are Americans starting to listen?

Plus, the striking scene of the world's strongmen flexing their power on the international stage. What does this alliance mean for American superpower?

(CROSS TALK)

[10:17:10]

PHILLIP: Gotham's race for mayor is getting even more interesting. After days of talk that the Trump administration is considering offering Eric Adams a job to leave the race, clearing the way for Andrew Cuomo to go up against Zohran Mamdani, Adams says that he's staying in. It's a notable twist that a socialist candidate is getting Trump's attention. In fact, Mamdani is challenging the president now to a debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Let's cut out the middleman. Why should I debate Donald Trump's puppet when I could debate Donald Trump himself? If Donald Trump is serious about this, he should come to New York City. We can have as many debates as he wants about why he is cutting SNAP benefits for hungry New Yorkers just to fund tax cuts for his billionaire donors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Now, yes, it's probably a stretch that that showdown will ever happen, but socialism is suddenly taking center stage in this country. The question is, would Americans actually be willing to listen to it? This is something that Democrats have had gone from kind of running away from to now you're seeing a lot of mainstream Democrats actually endorsing Mamdani. You had former President Obama setting up a call with him. Do you think that there's a sense that people don't care what you call it, it's about what you're putting in front of them.

CHAMPION: Look, I will say this, this race to me in New York is really illustrating, if not being the perfect example of what's wrong with the Democratic Party. I feel like some of the leaders, these, these key democratic leaders in this state that are refusing to endorse him, and you know who they are, Jeffries, whomever or however you want to backdoor it. It feels to me as if it is a really cowardice move on their part.

Now, I don't think endorsing one mayor says that will represent what the entire party feels. And I think because of some of his very, very strong views, whether it be on Israel or how he feels, how this economy should be run, they're afraid. And they'd rather sit back and sacrifice him for perhaps Cuomo if that will be the issue, as we hear that there's these backdoor deals of perhaps somebody moving out of the race.

But in my mind, I'm like, if it's working, what's the problem? I don't understand for this particular party, and I don't understand why they can't get on one accord. One thing Republicans do, they will always say the same thing. The messaging is very clear, and you stick together, right?

BROWN: No, not necessarily. Republicans are very, very independent.

CHAMPION: I don't know.

BROWN: I would love to see that debate, by the way. But whether you call it communism, socialism, whatever it is, I think it's very difficult -- I mean, step outside of New York City and people look into this race and say, how can we possibly have a socialist as mayor of the nation's financial capital? It feels un-American.

PHILLIP: You know, you pointed out that Republicans are not in lockstep. OK, I'm going to play this because I think this backs you up on that. This is actually Rand Paul, though, but he's talking about Donald Trump's policies. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:20:02]

SEN. RAND PAUL, (R-KY): And so I think it's a big mistake to have government ownership of things. And of course, it's a step toward socialism. What is worrisome is when you see the people supporting the president just sort of saying, oh, no, no, this is good. And it is good that the government should own. And that that really worries me because I worry that the free market movement, the movement that was a big part of the Republican Party, is being diminished over time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: So on the one hand, Hal, some political independence there from Rand Paul. But on the other hand, he's talking about a lot of things that Trump has done lately that, not just him, but several others have attributed to kind of a move towards socialism. And that has led to a lot of comparisons between Mamdani and Trump. You have Trump offering tariff rebate checks, potentially, $1,000 baby accounts, big ticket infrastructure plans, subsidies for U.S. industries buying into getting stakes in those industries. And of course, Mamdani has a lot of things that you don't like -- free childcare, ownership of grocery stores, public transit, rent control, et cetera. But he's not alone, right. And according to Rand Paul, Trump is headed in that direction, too.

LAMBERT: Now, all Trump did was specifically talking about Intel in that case. We made a bad deal and put billions of tax dollars into Intel. And Trump's coming out going, look, we did this thing. We didn't get anything in return as a government that funded this. We should have some ownership in the company. I don't think he would have ever --

PHILLIP: You know who else liked that idea. The other democratic socialist Bernie Sanders.

LAMBERT: Yes, I get it.

PHILLIP: Thats that was actually Bernie Sanders's idea that Donald Trump took and made actual policy.

LAMBERT: Look, in fairness, this started back during the oh eight crisis. We took ownership into General Motors and Ford, and we did it with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

JONES: Thank goodness we did. Otherwise Detroit would be a ghost town if we hadn't.

LAMBERT: So yes, it's not the first time this has happened, is my point.

JONES: Look, I just think that we're in a very interesting situation. Very clever on the young mayoral candidate's part to challenge Trump because it puts him on the same stage with the U.S. president. And so that -- this guy, he's a political genius or mastermind in terms of being able to go from literally unheard of a year ago to where he is now.

But I think, you know, most New Yorkers would like a better choice than a very young socialist or a very old authoritarian in Donald Trump to determine the direction of the country. There are a lot of other voices in this party that need to be heard from.

I think that -- I just want to say, when I was a young guy in the Bay Area 20 or 30 years ago, I was on the left side of Pluto. I was I was far to the left of Mamdani. I was a Bay Area Berserkly (ph) leftist and radical and --

CHAMPION: You're still young.

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: Only on television, only on television.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: It's not over for you. There's still time.

JONES: But over time, I learned a lot of those ideas don't work very well. And when you overpromise and underdeliver, a lot of what Mamdani is saying is stuff that he's not going to be able to deliver on. And so I hope that he continues to evolve and hope this party figures a way forward.

PHILLIP: I've got to leave it there. Next for us, companies, from Levi's to Jack Daniels are warning that their bottom lines are suffering due to anti-Americanism. This, as the world's autocrats give a slap in the face to Trump and the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:27:52]

PHILLIP: America the superpower is officially being challenged by the despot avengers. It was quite a scene in China this week, and when all the globe's strongmen, from Xi Jinping to Vladimir Putin to Kim Jong- un, attended a parade intended as a show of force in a new world order. Now, it clearly got Donald Trump's attention who, by the way, tried to pull off a similar spectacle back home. He says the leaders are conspiring against the United States, leaders, by the way, who he often compliments.

Now, this comes as more companies like Levi's and Jack Daniels are warning that anti-Americanism is actually hurting their bottom line. That's surprising in a way, Gail, because, you know, first of all, Levi's and Jack Daniels you would think of as perhaps great American companies, but they're also global companies, and they're saying this, this is what Levi's is saying, their British division, "The risk of rising anti-Americanism as a consequence of Trump's tariffs and governmental policies could lead to consumer preferences possibly shifting away from U.S. products and brands and increasing the willingness to substitute and buy national European products." It's sort of a hangover from this idea that every country is every man to himself, versus what globalism was supposed to be about.

BROWN: Could possibly. I mean, the wording itself is just political, as far as I'm concerned. Look at American Eagle. They're up 15 percent. So Levi is claiming that they're losing business, but American goods are always going to be popular around the world, whether it's fashion, music, cars, technology, whatever. We make it better and we are always going to be a country that provides for other nations products that they want. But we have to have an equal tariff system. It's the only fair way to do it.

JONES: Well, first of all, those are famous last words of any superpower when they say it's always going to be this way. Our best friend in the Asian region had been India. They're a democracy. They speak. They speak English. They are part of our tech sector.

[10:30:02]

These tariffs have pushed India into the arms of China. It's one thing if you see Putin with Xi. Modi was there. The prime minister of India. That is not good. And so I think the idea that we're such big dogs, we can treat anybody any kind of way, we can treat our friends like enemies, our enemies like friends, and there'll be no ramifications for America, that's not making America great again.

BROWN: I don't think that that's what I'm saying, certainly. I think that just in the tariffs we need to have, a system that is fair for both sides.

JONES: Why would --

BROWN: We've been paying their tariffs?

JONES: Why would we be treating India worse than were treating some of our actual adversaries? I'm going to tell you, there are things that.

BROWN: Because they're buying Russian oil.

JONES: Well, listen, they're buying Russian oil. But if you wanted to do something about what's happening in Ukraine, you would arm the Ukrainians better. These sanctions are not working against Russia. And now you have a double failure. You have a failed geopolitical strategy with regard to Ukraine, and a failed geopolitical strategy in Asia by pushing India away. None of this is working, and it's not making America great again.

LAMBERT: I'm confused on why the tariffs are causing people overseas to be upset if we're paying the taxes, right? Everyone keeps saying, certainly on the Democrat side, that the consumers in the U.S. are paying those tariffs. If that's true, then why is the world so upset?

JONES: Oh, I'll tell you why.

PHILLIP: Yes, there's a simple explanation for it.

LAMBERT: You mean because they might not buy as much of those products? Which means they're not going to pay the tax. They're going to switch to American products? No, I'm just saying you can't have it both ways.

JONES: No, this is just really simple. I mean, you're a much better guy than I will ever be, and I respect you for it. But this is a very simple question. When you make something more expensive, the demand goes down. And so at a certain point, people are going to do what they're doing, which say, listen, let's find other markets where we don't have to deal with the erratic behavior of Donald Trump.

Listen, I feel like a very strange person in my country now. I'm defending capitalism. I'm defending all these different institutions I used to argue against because I don't see the better alternative on the way.

PHILLIP: Look, I got to -- it's not just, you know, these companies who are selling things abroad. It's also companies like John Deere, another iconic American company. According to "The New York Times," the tractor maker said that sales were down and that higher metal tariffs would cost it $600 million. Meanwhile, American farmers are facing dwindling overseas demand for some crops. It's just so many, maybe unintended consequences is not the best way to describe it, but these are consequences that were foreseeable and have an impact on Americans, on American brands, American companies that need to do business abroad in order to serve their customers here better. CHAMPION: You know what, Abby? What I felt like this is really

interesting, I went to Toronto probably three weeks ago. I love Van gives me the -- yes, tell me more.

(LAUGHTER)

CHAMPION: It was a friendly visit. But what I did notice, and this is so simple, and it to me really was an example of where we are, this anti-American sentiment is starting to grow. I was in a wine store because I love wine. And then when you're there they have the -- when you come into this one particular store that I was at, it was like buy Canadian, don't buy American.

PHILLIP: Thats a real thing. That's a real thing. I mean, there have been stories about.

CHAMPION: It's a real thing. And so --

PHILLIP: Especially Canada.

CHAMPION: Especially Canada,

JONES: Our friends.

PHILLIP: They're really --

LAMBERT: Our friends have been putting massive tariffs on our goods to them for a long time.

BROWN: They have been taking advantage of us.

PHILLIP: Canada is a great example, because Canada is the number one purchaser of American goods. And Trump treated them as if he had not brokered a deal with them in his last term that he said was the best trade deal ever. And then he trash-talked them on the global stage, and then he put tariffs on them. And then he lied about dairy tariffs and other things like that. So yes, they're mad. And they're expressing that anger by not buying American goods.

And for the for the states that do a lot of cross border trade with Canada, they're experiencing what that feels like for Canadians to say, let's think twice about what we're doing with America.

CHAMPION: To Van's point, we can't just dismiss these people, treat them like they don't matter, and think that this will not have repercussions.

PHILLIP: Well, OK. OK. Go ahead. Last word.

LAMBERT: I was just going to say, I think, again, I think we're looking at this in the short term. Trump is focused on the long term. He wants to get manufacturing back here and he wants the world trade to be fair. He wants -- if they're going to have if they're going to 100 percent tariffs in India on our auto autos -- notice, there are no U.S. cars sold in India. So why should they -- why should that be allowed to continue without us doing anything about it? PHILLIP: All right, now we have to leave it there. Next for us, a

conservative think tank wants to launch a project to increase American birth rates. But it's not sex that they're focused on. We'll debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:39:41]

PHILLIP: The group that brought you Project 2025 may be turning its attention to baby making. The Heritage Foundation reportedly drafting a Manhattan Project to, quote, save the American family. Now, this effort is aimed at tackling Americas declining birth rate, which hit a new low last year.

[10:40:00]

But here's the thing -- "The Washington Post" is reporting that they will focus on loneliness and marriage while criticizing things like IVF and surrogacy. Controversial, to be sure, because I'm not sure why it needs to be one or the other. But if this is the beginning of a new sort of war against IVF, because women should just be getting pregnant in their early 20s, I'm not sure how that's going to work out.

BROWN: I don't think that's going to work out, but I don't think that's what it is. I think that realistically, our population is declining. We have to keep the species alive, obviously, and we need more Americans in order to do that. And I think the goal of having more children is not a bad thing. As a mother of two and a grandmother of four, I guess I'm very pro baby.

JONES: I like babies.

(LAUGHTER)

CHAMPION: You have babies.

JONES: Exactly. I have four babies. So if anybody wants to have an argument about babies, I am -- I'm as pro baby as you can get. But there's no shortage of babies in this world. We have a lot of babies in this world. I think the reason that some people don't like this conversation is because it just seems like, hold on a second. If you want more children in the United States, there are plenty who would like to come here, but you don't want immigration. If you want Americans to have bigger, stronger families, we could have better childcare. We could have better healthcare, lower prices, all those things get called --

CHAMPION: Education.

JONES: Education. All those things get called socialism. So you start knocking off what it seems like you're saying is -- not you, but when I look at this report that there's a certain group of people you want to have more babies. And if you if a certain group of people you want to have more babies, that starts to get a little bit weird.

PHILLIP: Well, let me just read a little bit more and I'll let you get in. This is what "The Washington Post" says that the report says, suggests that the answer to the problem of loneliness and demographic decline must begin with marriage, and blames free love, pornography, careerism, the pill, abortion, same sex relations, and no-fault divorce as culprits behind the decline of American marriages.

JONES: Oh, Sookie. Sookie now.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Those are all --

JONES: Same sex marriages?

BROWN: No, I didn't say same-sex marriage. But pornography, social media.

CHAMPION: I just feel like, once we start trying to legislate what happens in people's bedrooms, we're in a very tricky space. I'm speaking as a woman who is single. I don't have kids. Someone could say it was careerism. It's not that I didn't want to have kids, but I can also tell you right now that I don't know if this is an environment in which I want to raise children. And I also can tell you that when I think about my friends who have had children and who had to go through this system in this health care system, where they were told that they didn't have any pain when they clearly had pain, women dying in birth because they're being ignored because they think, quote-unquote, they can handle pain better -- I'm talking about black maternal death rates. I just feel like it's an unfair place to say, let me tell you what's wrong. You're lonely. Let me tell you what's wrong, what you're doing wrong. And I don't need a man telling me what to do with my body.

LAMBERT: I don't think that's what they're trying to do at all. They're trying to look at symptoms. And I think the number one problem is, is economic, quite frankly. I think when people are graduating from college, they have a lot of debt. They don't they don't want to get married right away. They want to have a house before they get married. They want to do all these things before they get married and have kids. And then they look up in they're 35, and they're like, wait, I got to go have kids. So I just think there's a delay that's happened.

And then those that aren't going to college, it's the same thing. They're thinking, hey, I've got to be able to afford a house first. They look at things from an economic perspective, and I think that's why we're having a big --

CHAMPION: I would also I would also say men are the problem, too.

JONES: What do we do?

CHAMPION: I would say it's hard to find a good man in America.

(LAUGHTER)

CHAMPION: I'm also going to say that. That's another part, that the way that we are raising our men while we're trying to get new babies, let's raise our current men right, so that they do want to be faithful, monogamous men and being married.

PHILLIP: Let me just suggest --

CHAMPION: He's like, gosh, I was like, I'm married.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: Maybe both of you are a little bit right. OK. So like, I think you're totally right how any report about babies and marriage in this country that does not start and end with the economic situation that people are facing makes no sense to me. That is the reason. When you talk to anybody my age or younger, they're not doing any of those things because they're trying to pay off their $100,000 in student loans, OK. But on men, right. Listen, the boys, boys are --

CHAMPION: We're have a problem with our young men in this country. It is a challenge.

PHILLIP: It's a challenge, right. And when men, this is still economic, when men feel like they are ready to settle down to get married, to commit to somebody, to have children is, it feels like that is also a factor in what's happening here. And I think there's you know, we've talked about the loneliness epidemic. We've talked about the sort of destabilization of the young American man. It seems to me that's part of the conversation.

CHAMPION: It's a contributing factor. It really is.

BROWN: But don't you think it's also cultural? I mean, when people read online or in social media how, as you said, how difficult it is to have children, how difficult it is to be a single parent, how expensive it is, how --

[10:45:01]

PHILLIP: You mean in American culture or just where we are in the world?

BROWN: No, in American, American culture. I think that that it discourages women, it discourages them.

PHILLIP: Well, OK, so here's, I want to -- since you brought it up, I mean, there was a piece in "The Atlantic" that kind of caused some commotion this week. It says a common narrative, "The Marriage Effect" is the title, "a common narrative has it that commitment and motherhood make women unhappy, and new data suggests that the opposite is true." So maybe there's something to what you're saying. I'm not sure that's an American thing, though, I think, because, you know, the birth rates are going down in pretty much all developed countries right now. But women do need to know that a, they can be happy and married and have kids, and b, that they can do that and have careers if they want one, and c, that they can do that and not go broke.

JONES: I think that's true for women. It's true for men. The thing that bothers me about this report is that it blames same sex relationships, and that is wrong. Some of the best parents I know are lesbian couples or gay male couples who are doing an extraordinary job with kids and are having them and are adopting them. And, frankly, are caring. If the heterosexual world was as committed to marriage and family and kids as the people I know in the gay world, all these problems would go away. So I just don't like the anti-gay bias in the report.

PHILLIP: Anti surrogacy, anti -- I mean, in a way anti-gay adoption, that, again, it seems counterintuitive to a strategy that is about how do we have more babies, how do we raise more children to be healthy, happy, productive members of society.

LAMBERT: And let me add one thing about "The Atlantic" report, about the survey. I think that that's a really, really tricky thing to get out of somebody. That's a very personal question, right? If you're asking someone that's married, are they happy and have kids? You're asking someone.

CHAMPION: Sure.

(LAUGHTER)

LAMBERT: You're asking --

PHILLIP: Their answer might be sometimes.

CHAMPION: Very happy.

LAMBERT: If you're asking someone that's single, hey, you know, are you happy? Are they going to say to you, well, no, I'm not, because no one wanted to marry me? Or are they going to say, actually, you know, I am happy. So it's going to be really hard to get a real good answer out of --

PHILLIP: There's been a lot of surveys that suggest that.

CHAMPION: That suggest that.

PHILLIP: That will suggest that in general, that parents, despite as hard as the job is, parents report being happier than people who are not parents. So that's not surprising to me in a way.

CHAMPION: Well, I know there is this, and I don't know if it's just among the group of people that I hear about, but I hear that married men and single women are the happiest folks ever.

(LAUGHTER)

LAMBERT: I don't know about that.

CHAMPION: Just what I'm hearing.

JONES: They might be spending some time together.

(LAUGHTER) CHAMPION: I'm just letting you know what they say. That's what they're saying on the streets.

PHILLIP: I mean, OK, wow.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: Next for us, the panel is going to give us their unpopular opinions, what they're not afraid to say out loud.

But first, a programing note. Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports on the innovative procedures that are bringing relief to the 51 million Americans living with chronic pain. "Dr. Sanjay Gupta Reports, It Doesn't Have to Hurt." It airs Sunday night at 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:53:04]

PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Hal, you're first.

LAMBERT: I think fantasy football is a complete waste of time. And I actually think it probably hurts economic growth in this country because so many people spend so much time. They go, they spend hours on this, they go to draft days, and they spend every week, all season long in fantasy football. And they get upset during the games. They get mad at the players. I think it's creating a lot of anger and it's a big waste of time.

PHILLIP: I ask the question, why?

CHAMPION: It's really fun.

PHILLIP: Fantasy football for a really long -- I'm with you, Hal.

CHAMPION: It's good, it's good. OK, but outside -- no. Here's what I'm saying. Actually, in that same vein, I think that Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift should elope. I think they're getting married, but I think that they as a couple, for me, I know it's not popular. Everyone has been in their life to me, they represent a lot of things that are right. As we see this young love, marriage isn't over, right? But I would love if they got if they eloped because people are so obsessed with what they're doing in their lives, and I'm tired of hearing about it. And I think it would be a beautiful thing if they just showed up and said they were already married. So to the couple, good luck and get eloped.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: I want a royal wedding. Sorry.

CHAMPION: And you deserve it.

PHILLIP: All right, Gail. BROWN: Most people like to travel with other people. They spend all

this money to travel with groups. I know I'm going to make a lot of enemies, and my friends and family will never talk to me. But I feel that oftentimes it's better to travel alone. I traveled alone for the first time to Rome last summer, and I spent six hours in a leather market. I did the hop on, hop off bus. I swam alone in the mediterranean. I just did all the things I wanted to do with nobody telling me, you can't do that. You know?

PHILLIP: I love that for you.

BROWN: So traveling alone has its benefits.

PHILLIP: I love that. That is a good reminder. I only did it once recently, and I agree with you. It was like you rediscover yourself in a really interesting way.

BROWN: It's fun.

[10:55:02]

JONES: My unpopular opinion is Taylor Swift does not know your name. She does not know you exist. So stop worrying about her relationship and worry more about your relationship.

(LAUGHTER)

CHAMPION: Are you talking to me?

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: Not directly. I'm just saying.

CHAMPION: I feel a bit attacked. I feel attacked.

LAMBERT: I think she knows her name.

JONES: Be like Gail. Be like Gail. Live your life, be happy, and please stop all the stuff about these people who you literally are never going to meet. Thank you.

PHILLIP: Drink your water.

CHAMPION: Drink your water, mind your business.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: All right, everybody, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern on our News Night roundtable and anytime on your favorite social media, X, Instagram, and TikTok. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right after this.

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