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CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Trump Administration's FCC Chairman's Comment Leads to Suspension of Late Night Talk Show Host Jimmy Kimmel after Kimmel's Controversial Comments on Charlie Kirk; President Trump's Criticism of Media and Broadcasting Licensure Spark Questions around First Amendment; Former Bush Administration Adviser Karl Rove Warns Conservatives against Rhetoric Linking Charlie Kirk Assassin to U.S. Political Left in General; Some Conservatives Blame Former U.S. President Barack Obama for Causing Divisiveness in American Politics; Former Democratic Presidential Candidate Kamala Harris to Release Book on Her Failed 2024 Presidential Campaign. Aired 10-11a ET

Aired September 20, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:00:33]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Today, Donald Trump doesn't like Jimmy Kimmel's comedy, so he turns it into a drama.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can do this the easy way or the hard way.

PHILLIP: How the new MAGA does a 180 from the old one.

ELON MUSK, PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: The left wanted to make comedy illegal.

J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: I think that we have to stop getting so offended at every little thing.

PHILLIP: Plus, the right's favorite term since Charlie Kirk's assassination is the pronoun the group hates.

JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: They are at war with us.

PHILLIP: But even Karl Rove is telling his party them and they is a dangerous play.

Also, a former president emerges to speak out against the administration's actions. MAGA insists he was the one who divided America.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW": We haven't felt like ourselves since Barack Obama.

PHILLIP: And Kamala Harris is having a tea party, and the spills are touching everyone, from her former number one to a couple guys she didn't pick to be her number two.

Here in studio, John Avlon, Ashley Allison, Abel Maldonado, and Kmele Foster.

It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Hi there everyone. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.

Free speech is under attack in America, and the Army is the group that promised to protect it. The president has spent the last nine months targeting protesters, corporations, media companies, universities, law firms and museums. And this week, his government threatened ABC to deal with Jimmy Kimmel "the easy way or the hard way", that's a quote, something the president confirmed later out loud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: When you have a network and you have evening shows and all they do is hit Trump, that's all they do. If you go back, I guess they haven't had a conservative on in years or something, somebody said. But when you go back and you take a look, all they do is hit Trump. They're licensed. They're not allowed to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: An obvious fact check there. They are, by the way, by way of the First Amendment. So it's probably ironic for these people to see the government trying to censor it's critics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: The left wanted to make comedy illegal, you know. You can't make fun of anything. So it was like, comedy sucks. It's like nothing's funny. You can't make fun of anything. It's like legalized comedy.

J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: I've heard about the joke. Maybe it's a stupid racist joke, as you said. Maybe it's not. But I think that we have to stop getting so offended at every little thing in the United States of America. I'm just, I'm so over it.

(APPLAUSE)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Bring back free speech to America. And now, here we are, nine months later, and we're living in a very different world. I guess at the end of this week now, the question seems to be, as it often is with Trump, was this all just a big miscalculation in the sense that it's really opened up this pandora's box of maybe self-reflection in the conservative movement about whether they really believe in free speech, whether or not this is actually as far as they want to go? I mean, are we at that moment?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think that the silver lining is a moment of reflection from the right. I think what it is, is it's a big reveal, that it was never about free speech. This has been consistent.

PHILLIP: For some people.

AVLON: For this administration.

PHILLIP: Yes, for this administration.

AVLON: For this president, since the beginning, they have been cracking down on free speech, at universities, at museums, at law firms, and at media companies. And so this actually just captures the attention because it's popular entertainment. Colbert plus Kimmel equals an undeniable attempt to throw brushback pitches at free speech, at comedians, at satire.

And so it's a lot more serious. I'd love for them to have a come to Jesus moment and realize that they want to apply their principles in an equal manner. I'm not holding my breath for that, but we all need to wake up right now.

Absolutely So, there's that. I mean, I think there's the Trump of it all. There are some conservatives who are pushing back on this. In the op-ed pages, there was Senator Ted Cruz. But there's also this. This is Republican Senator Cynthia Lummis. She says, "Under normal times, in normal circumstances, I tend to think that the First Amendment should always be a sort of the ultimate right and that there should be almost no checks and balances on it. I don't feel that way anymore."

[10:05:03]

She's basically saying, I used to think this was untouchable, I used to think this was a very important right that shouldn't be touched. Now, I don't.

ABEL MALDONADO, (R) FORMER CALIFORNIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Yes, free speech should not be touched, period. I mean, it's the backbone. It's what we talked about during the campaign. And look, it all started with Jimmy Fallon -- with Jimmy Kimmel being fired, Abby. And look, as a business owner, he was fired by a private, private business who wasn't happy. Obviously, the ratings weren't the best, but, John, let me let me finish. John.

AVLON: Please finish.

MALDONADO: He was fired. The affiliates came out and said --

PHILLIP: He was not -- technically not fired. But please continue.

MALDONADO: OK. OK. He was suspended indefinitely. So, OK, I don't know what that means. Is he going to come back tomorrow? I don't know. But at the end of the day, he started this free speech conversation, which free speech has always been at the core of our Constitution in the First Amendment.

So, look, I didn't like what he said. I really don't. I actually hated what he said, and obviously, with having, with Charlie Kirk being assassinated, it sent chills down the spines of a lot of people. But at the end of the day, you know, if Kimmel said something that was bad, there was a process to go after somebody if they said something bad. So I'm not from the school of they should have let him go. But that's not my decision. That was ABC's decision to let him go.

KMELE FOSTER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "TANGLE": You're leaving out an essential detail. You have a high-profile Trump official who goes on a podcast, very prominent podcast, and insists, among other things, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. At that point, this is called jawboning. That's the technical term for it. They're doing absolutely everything they can to not only intimidate them, but every other broadcaster. And the president is sending a very clear message from Air Force One -- if you're giving me negative coverage, which apparently includes comedians doing monologues, we may come after you.

That is completely un-American. I'm glad that Ted Cruz is saying the right thing, and Ted Cruz being someone who I think is probably like, has a finger in the wind and sees the current shifting here and is saying it's probably a good place to break ranks with the president. Maybe there'll be other people.

PHILLIP: Although, I'll say typically the finger in the wind is whatever direction MAGA is going in, so that's the only reason that's a little surprising. Before you jump in, can I just play this, because I think this is super important. Jon Stewart talked to Nobel Prize winner Maria Ressa about this. Now, you know, she knows a lot about strongman regimes, and she's a very strong voice for the free press, having lived through it herself. Here's what she had to say about the moment that America is in right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART: I've never seen this country where so many are living on eggshells.

MARIA RESSA, JOURNALIST: It feels like Americans are like deer in headlights.

STEWART: Yes.

RESSA: You know?

STEWART: I feel that way.

RESSA: But if you don't move and protect the rights you have, you lose them. And it's so much harder to reclaim them.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, when a deer is in headlight, they freeze, and then they get killed by a car. That's actually what she's saying, is that America is at the threat of literally losing it all.

And I think there's two parts of this conversation. Free speech needs to be protected. It's one of our most fundamental rights. But the clips you played earlier of the Republicans is that it's the hypocrisy of it all, right? Like, OK, so do we want comedy or do not do we not want comedy? And do you just not want comedy when you're the butt of the joke? And so are we, the left, only soft when like you make fun of us and it hurts our feelings, like do our feelings not matter?

It is, we talked a lot about humanity this week around the murder of Charlie Kirk, but I feel like we're conflating two things that are happening here. We're conflating people who become offended when people say something they don't like, and then they want to take the greatest retribution to stop that, rather than coming up with an actual comeback to stop it. I think that is separate than you then saying, I'm rethinking if the First Amendment should be the First Amendment.

PHILLIP: Can I ask about you, Abel, because I think one of the things that Jon Stewart and Maria Ressa are talking about there is in their world, and I'm characterizing it that way, because I understand that there are perhaps, maybe half the country that doesn't feel this way. But in their world, they feel like everybody is just tiptoeing around Trump, waiting for the hammer of the government to drop on them. Maybe you're a university professor. Maybe you're a schoolteacher or a nurse, and you say something on Twitter. Maybe you're, you know, a reporter. They feel like the hammer is going to drop on them because of the chilling effect of all of this. Do you see that? Do you see that happening in your world? And do you acknowledge that that is different from what was happening a year ago, when many people hated Joe Biden? But they could say it as much as they wanted?

[10:10:00]

MALDONADO: Well, there's no -- there's no question that things are different today than they were a year ago, Abby. And there's no, there's no question that things have changed. So we have a new president. We have a different administration. We have Brendan Carr. We have all these things.

But I'm from the school of I'm for free speech. I don't care who the president is, I'm for free speech, and we're going to protect it. Now, if there is violence toward -- someone making comments toward violence, there's some exceptions. And Jimmy Kimmel, I don't know if that's where they're trying to go with him, but what he said offended me. But he has the right to say that.

PHILLIP: But do you think that there is a chill? Do you do you agree that there is a chill on people's willingness to speak up in this moment?

MALDONADO: I do. I really do. And I say that with all heart because, you know, people make comments, and am I going to make a comment? And did someone die on the battlefield to give me the opportunity to say whatever I want? Or I'm not going to say it because I'm going to lose my job. That is, that is a problem.

AVLON: This goes back to one of those old definitions of free speech, which is it's being able to say what's on your mind without looking over your shoulder. And I said that when the controversy around David Chappelle or any other. But when the tragedy, the assassination of Charlie Kirk occurred, Jimmy Kimmel and Democrats across the board condemned it. They said there's no place for political violence. They offered prayers for his family, as they should. And then we have to lift it up, as opposed to trying to divide ourselves further. And that's the danger right now. It's the danger what comes when companies are trying to -- and this is how this happened. A company called Nexstar is trying to get a deal approved through the FCC, and this guy says the only way to do that is, you know, give me a scalp.

That's not free speech, that's not free markets, that's not free people. And it shows the danger of when sometimes these corporations that control news organizations are looking over their shoulder, afraid they're not going to get approval for a merger and acquisition, and therefore they're willing to sacrifice free speech in the process.

PHILLIP: Time to get rid of the FCC. Well, hey, some conservatives are arguing --

FOSTER: It's actually a phenomenal argument --

PHILLIP: -- listen, it's 2025. OK. I think a lot of Americans are surprised. Yes, they hear this and they're like, what are we talking about here? Broadcast licenses? This is the 21st century and we're still doing this and the government has their hand because they just happen to be broadcast networks?

FOSTER: This is the ideal argument for limited government. There used to be conservatives in this country, a libertarian. I still believe in that.

And look, I actually do want to call out something I heard earlier this week Ezra Klein and Ross Douthat having a conversation. And there was this moment where Ezra says, you know, I probably needed to acknowledge back a couple of years ago that we were a little too censorious, that the left was actually interested in kind of intimidating --

PHILLIP: I think that's something more liberals should say.

FOSTER: I think it would help.

PHILLIP: They should acknowledge, not just in passing, but actively acknowledge where things went wrong. That's the only way to move forward.

FOSTER: Agreed.

PHILLIP: I think, in a way, because otherwise -- ALLISON: What would we acknowledge?

PHILLIP: I think you have to acknowledge that there is a -- listen, cancel culture was a thing. OK, it was actually a thing. And it's not it's not just enough to say, well, my cancel culture was fine, but yours is wrong. There has to be an acknowledgment that, yes, now I think everybody understands what free speech really looks like and what it means. And then you have to apply that thinking to what was happening four or five or six years ago and say something.

ALLISON: But this is the difference about -- I don't like cancel culture, but the only difference I would say is it wasn't the president of the United States canceling them. Joe Biden wasn't canceling somebody. Kamala Harris wasn't canceling. It might have been individual citizens and individual citizens actually have the ability to say I don't like it, and let their dollars, let their viewership, let their subscriptions --

PHILLIP: We have more to discuss just in this general topic. But everybody stand by for us.

Next, the right keeps using "they" and "them" when it comes to Charlie Kirk's murder, implying that the left is responsible. But even Karl Rove, Karl Rove is warning against that.

Plus, a surprising voice is emerging in all of this, and that's Barack Obama. And now he says MAGA says Americas divisions started under him.

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[10:18:43]

PHILLIP: For a group that refuses to use the pronoun "they," conservatives sure are embracing it after Charlie Kirks murder. Elise Stefanik says, "They couldn't silence him, so they killed him." Marjorie Taylor Greene says ,"They assassinated our nice guy who actually talked to them peacefully, debating ideas." Nancy Mace says, "They almost killed Donald Trump. They killed Charlie Kirk." Matt Walsh, "They're killing us in our churches. They tried to kill our president. They killed Charlie, one of our greatest advocates." Elon Musk, "if they won't leave us in peace, then our choice is to fight or die." Jesse Watters says "They are at war with us."

But despite no evidence that this assassin was tied to some conspiracy or even some network, it's close to becoming policy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: We are going to channel all of the anger that we have over the organized campaign that led to this assassination to uproot and dismantle these terrorist networks.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL, (R-KS): The libs that killed Charlie Kirk, you know, we're not done yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Former Bush advisor Karl Rove is calling out this language, saying, quote, "No, Charlie Kirk wasn't killed by "them." "They" didn't pull the trigger. One person did. Apparently, a young man driven by impulse and a terrible hate. If there were a "they" involved, law enforcement would find "them" and the justice system would hold "them" accountable. But "he" and "him" are the correct pronouns for this horrendous act."

Many people have been saying this, but, you know, sometimes you've got to hear the call from inside the house. That's fine. But it's a super important point because it's actually about all of us, and whether there are people who even want us to live together. You know, I think that that's fundamentally what's happening here, and it seems to me there's a desire to use this as a tool to do other things.

ALLISON: I agree, I think that there is -- not the majority, but there is a portion of the of people living in this country who don't want us to move forward as a country and evolve and live regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, faith, be able to live in peace together. I don't think any of those people are sitting at this table.

But I think it also, we were talking last segment about cancel culture, and I think a little bit this is about not being able to have a discussion and discourse in our -- we don't know how to talk to one another anymore. And things that Charlie Kirk said drastically offended me. I have yet to have actually one person ask me why, if they agreed with those things. And that's the fault in the moment that we're in right now.

It is very clear that Charlie Kirk should not have been murdered, but why not have a conversation with me and say, why, why did that upset you? And take the moment to listen and not have a comeback. And then I should ask the question about, why did you really like the things that Charlie Kirk said? That is actually how you move forward. But I don't think that there's a desire to have that conversation.

And you know why? These things, social media, it gives you an ability to stand behind a tag that you never have to come up and face somebody face to face. It doesn't allow us, we've never really come back from the pandemic, being so isolated from one another. If we actually can't figure that out, we could lose the right to free speech because we don't even know how to use speech properly sometimes.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, listen, it's so easy to say the left did this, the left caused this. You have blood on your hands, which many people have said. But none of that, I think, brings us to a place where we can convince people who are deranged or who might be headed that way, to not go this far, ever, in this society.

MALDONADO: I don't know who they put him up to do it. I don't know if he had friends. Maybe "they" are they. They're not going after his friends. So at the end of the day, we do have a situation -- Ashley made some very, very good points -- where we're not even talking to each other. I mean, we do at this program here, but we don't talk to each other. And at the end of the day, it's a gotcha moment. This phone right here, I was elected in 1994, and we had an old thing, Abby, that called cavemen. Cavemen were the old politicians that were in office who will fight you on the floor every day for a bill. But at the end of the day, we're Californians. This has become gotcha moments on a lot of things.

PHILLIP: Some people think that that's inauthentic, to debate about issues and even values, but then still have a relationship outside of that, still be able to talk. I'm telling you.

AVLON: That's called democracy.

PHILLIP: Listen, I'm telling you, people think that that is like, you're fake. You're faking it. This is all a game to you. I hear it all the time.

FOSTER: I do think it's important. And I hate to do it this way because it sounds like, well, both sides. The other side did it. But we have become accustomed to this existential rhetoric. We've become accustomed to having debates by way of kind of taxonomical, categorical condemnations. That's racist. The analysis is systemic. We're not talking about actual things done by actual people. We're talking about people in the abstract. It's white supremacy. It's the blacks.

PHILLIP: That's a really interesting point.

FOSTER: Even using it here is jarring. But that has become our politics. And I would agree with so much of what you said.

The one thing I would say, though, is I don't know that it's the phones. The phones are a vector, but ultimately we are making these choices. We are choosing to interact on social media in the way that we do. There was that, I'm sure we all saw that YouGov poll that said, oh, the left is more likely to endorse extremism and cares about all this. It's still the case that the vast majority of Americans, plus 85 percent of Democrats, hate what is happening to this country. They hate this kind of hideous rhetoric. And that is what we need to focus on. We have to stop letting the extremes command our politics.

AVLON: A hundred percent. And this is the problem with polarization. This is the problem with a lot of the algorithms, is that the 20 percent, the loudest, most confrontational, most conspiracy theorist voices get elevated. And so in the wake of a tragedy like this, you start seeing talk of a second civil war come down. And we forget, and we need to remember that most of the evil in the world has come about when individuals are judged as members of groups.

FOSTER: Yes.

AVLON: And that in the United States there is no they. There is only us. And we need to start remembering that aggressively, with an eye towards history and with an eye towards elevating our common humanity.

PHILLIP: Next for us, though, MAGA is now blaming Barack Obama for starting the nation's divisions.

[10:25:03]

We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: In the aftermath of Charlie Kirk assassination and Jimmy Kimmel's potential cancellation, there is an unexpected voice emerging after largely avoiding getting into the partizan fray day to day, and that is Barack Obama. He criticized the administration's rush to use the tragedy to go after its political opposition. And when ABC yanked Kimmel after threats from the FCC, the former president called the administration's actions dangerous and an attack on the First Amendment.

[10:30:00]

In turn, MAGA has started a chorus that it was Obama who is to blame for a divided nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: When you see the kind of hatred out there, it's like unbelievable. And it's probably always been there. We just don't realize it. But I saw it starting with President Obama. I saw tremendous hatred. I saw levels that we've never seen before.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW": We haven't felt like ourselves since Barack Obama. I just think he was such a slick snake, you know? he was this affable guy who was like, wearing good suits and looked the part and sounded the part and dressed the part, but was so divisive in his messaging. He's the one who started to inject race where no one had been doing it. Barack Obama was the reason Donald Trump came about, that he was born as a political figure. They say Trump is divisive. He was the antidote. He was the answer to the divisiveness of Barack Obama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: No, we are not in the upside-down world. And those slick tan suits, how dare he? But I'm going to open the floor to Kmele, because I know you have some thoughts about the Obama of it all. What do you think?

FOSTER: Well, look, I too miss that particular era of our politics. Things were a little bit less acrimonious. That said, I do think that the election of Barack Obama in some circles is perhaps a little more generous than mine. That much vaunted speech on race, where he refers to his grandmother as kind of a typical white person. I don't think there is such a thing as a typical white person. I think there's a sense in which Obama was expected to usher us into this new era of much healthier conversations, more nuanced conversations about race. But on his watch, we actually got the Trayvon Martin situation. We remember the Skip Gates situation, that Beergate summit where initially there was this I think the police officer acted stupidly. No, it turns out that things were a lot more complicated. The Trayvon Martin situation, he also says, if I had a son, he would have looked like Trayvon. I'm not certain that's relevant.

If Donald Trump were to say something equivalent about someone who happened to kind of look like him, we would all find that a bit strange. There's a sense in which even Jeremiah Wright, that became a part of our politics because of his proximity to Barack Obama. So I do think that it's worth acknowledging the sense that things got a little bit more complicated.

PHILLIP: I'm just going to play, because you're saying exactly what Ben Shapiro said essentially on Ezra Klein's show on Tuesday. Let me just play it, because I think this is fascinating. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN SHAPIRO, HOST, "THE BEN SHAPIRO SHOW": I think that, for President Obama, I think the left perceives the Obamacare moment as the moment that the right sort of radicalized. And I don't think that that's actually right. I think the bitter clingers comments were a big one. That was in the 2008 election. I think the Henry Louis Gates statements, the Trayvon Martin situation was quite polarizing, for sure. The Ferguson riots, those I think, would be sort of the biggest examples of Barack Obama kind of setting off the right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALLISON: Can I just --

PHILLIP: It's going to be a battle between Ashley and John. OK, Ashley, go first.

ALLISON: As someone who worked in that White House during some of those moments, we're missing one important key of this fact pattern, is that Barack Obama is black. And, like, that actually is a -- no. It is.

FOSTER: Is he black? What does that mean, exactly? His mom is, his father is --

ALLISON: Whatever your definition is --

FOSTER: Are we still operating under the one drop rule, the brown paper bag.

ALLISON: Whatever your definition, whatever your definition might want to be of is he's black. When most people look at him. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're black, I'm black, Barack Obama is black.

PHILLIP: But OK. But let me let me just say --

ALLISON: But that's --

PHILLIP: Let me just say like I just think that this is interesting because, Ashley, I'm hearing you say that part of the problem was that Barack Obama constantly reminded white America that he considered himself to be black, and that that was part of what they found offensive. (CROSS TALK)

FOSTER: No, no, it's a more nuanced point.

ALLISON: The majority -- my father was blind, but the majority of Americans are not blind. He didn't have to open his mouth for people to be reminded that he was the first one that was different than any other president that has ever been in this country.

FOSTER: Every president has been different because they're all individuals. There was a moment on the campaign trail, there was a moment on the campaign trail where someone stood up and talked to then candidate Obama and said, hey, look, all my friends keep telling me you're black. I tell them, no, you're biracial. And he lurched at the opportunity to say, hey, I'm perceived as black. I'm so glad I have an opportunity to talk about this. That's how I self-identify.

ALLISON: So you didn't think he was black?

FOSTER: I am an individual. I am not a black man. I don't even know what that means. I am an individual. Race is a preposterous social construct.

ALLISON: Do you feel like that when you get pulled over by the police?

FOSTER: I do feel like that when I get pulled over by the police. You know why? Because when they talk to me, they're engaging with this vernacular, they're engaging with me in this particular way. And it's impossible to misconstrue what's going on here.

[10:35:01]

ALLISON: What is going on there? What is going on there? What is going on there? A different type of blackness than when somebody that might have that vernacular.

FOSTER: I'm an individual.

ALLISON: Wait, I just -- hold on. Wait a minute. You just said a lot there.

FOSTER: So apparently we do have time.

ALLISON: OK. So you said when you're pulled over by a police, as an individual who happens to have skin that is black, let's say that. Or brown, whatever, darker than white, OK?

FOSTER: Yes.

ALLISON: That when they hear your vernacular, they realize what they're engaging with. And what is that?

FOSTER: A sophisticated individual.

ALLISON: And so when a black person who is pulled over that you might not deem as a sophisticated individual, how will they get engaged?

FOSTER: The issue would not be their race. It would be the degree of sophistication they have or don't have to navigate the situation.

ALLISON: And when a white person is pulled over.

FOSTER: Again, sophistication is still the key issue.

ALLISON: The statistics don't support that.

AVLON: I just don't --

PHILLIP: Go ahead, John.

ALLISON: They don't.

AVLON: I believe that we all should be viewed as individuals, but if you look you at a picture of every single president of the United States of America, Barack Obama stands out. And I don't need to tell you or anyone at this table or anyone here at home that race is a fundamental fault line in American history.

ALLISON: That's right.

AVLON: And maybe Barack Obama was guilty of giving us the hope that we could transcend a lot of those divides, and we didn't prove up to it. But I remember covering a lot of those Tea Party rallies for a book that became "Wingnuts." And the outburst of anger on the far right when Barack Obama became president, before he'd even, you know, the conspiracy theories started unloading before he even took the oath of office. And this is a man who campaigned is there are no red states, there are no blue states. There are only the United States. He campaigned as a bridge builder. That was about something deeper coming up.

ALLISON: I agree.

AVLON: When I would interview people.

PHILLIP: They call him a Muslim. He was very sophisticated. He's Harvard educated, he's sophisticated. But they were like, he's a darn Muslim.

FOSTER: But this is not separate --

PHILLIP: Explain that one to me.

FOSTER: Yes. This is not separate from what I was saying earlier, that the reality is that most -- no, no. Let me tell you which thing I said earlier. More than -- I would say more than 85 percent of conservatives are good, decent people. They are not racist. They don't have malignant thoughts about people. They're not out there calling Barack Obama a Muslim. Like this is -- it's preposterous to permit ourselves to have the conversation at the lowest rung of the ladder, which is the wingnuts.

AVLON: Thats the wingnuts.

FOSTER: But they were there. They were at the protest.

PHILLIP: That is fair to a degree. But you also have to acknowledge the degree to which that anger also fueled the backlash to Obama. You cannot ignore that. In our politics, in in this era, yes, the wingnuts fuel politics. They actually do. Right now in congress, literally in Congress, there are one or two wingnuts on either side of the aisle who are fueling 80 percent of the narrative that comes out of Capitol Hill.

AVLON: And when Marjorie Taylor Greene talks about the need for a national divorce, what's that another word for? Secession.

(CROSS TALK)

PHILLIP: Hold on. Let me -- I do have to let our friend Abel to say a word in edgewise. Go ahead.

MALDONADO: I was watching. This is a good conversation, but I can share this with you, that the wingnuts are on both sides, and they're winning, to be very sincere with you, because their voice is the one that gets amplified. And normal Americans are just falling through by the wayside, because, look, she can say that Barack Obama was starting the beginning of the divide. You go to a left organization, they're going to say Trump was the beginning of the divide. It's where we're at as a country.

ALLISON: I think the left agrees that Barack Obama unearthed something --

PHILLIP: Beginning of Trump's divide, for sure.

ALLISON: Because those conversations that I had with people is most people when Barack -- first of all, most black people didn't think that this country was ready for a black president, and when it happened, they were optimistic of what it could bring. They also were worried every day for his safety because of what it would unearth in this country.

And then we were like, well, we probably won't see that again in a long time because the backlash, what happens in this country is the pendulum swings from one place to another, and Barack Obama, for many Americans, you can say the people watching can decide what they want to put, the adjective they want to put on this. But when people saw Barack Obama, it was like, it's gone too far.

PHILLIP: Can I just say one last thing? I mean, the Ben Shapiro episode was very fascinating for a number of reasons. He called out the Cairo speech that Obama gave in which he described it as sort of like an anti-Americanism, anti-colonialism screed from Obama that reinforced this idea that he was really not one of us. He was he was Muslim. He was of that that region.

What I would like people to do is take that speech and compare it to what Donald Trump said when he went to the Middle East earlier this year and said that essentially, western colonialism had failed in that region. He essentially said what Obama said, and nobody on the right said a word about it.

AVLON: Why is that, Abby.

PHILLIP: Not a word. They didn't say that he was -- he had a, well, who was it that said that Obama had a colonial attitude? It was one of those, a British politician who said that.

AVLON: The funniest thing is an American president being accused of not being pro-American because he's anti-colonialist. Go back and look at revolutionary history.

[10:40:02]

PHILLIP: Or anti-interventionist, because I think the argument Trump is making is that we tried to change regimes. We tried to put in people, put people in in power, and it failed. And Obama said the same thing.

All right, next for us, Kamala Harris has a new book out. And if you want to hear the tea about her 2024 run, she is definitely spilling it. We'll discuss that next.

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[10:45:07]

PHILLIP: Kamala Harris is settling scores, and she's lighting up the board. The former vice president's book about her failed campaign is out next week, and there are some doozies among them. She wanted Pete Buttigieg as her running mate, but didn't think that America would vote for a black woman married to a Jewish husband and also a gay man. She suggested that Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro was too cocky about the job and wouldn't act like a number two. And in addition to all the blame she's putting on Joe Biden and his team, she says Biden called her minutes before her pivotal debate with Donald Trump to confront her about accusations that she was badmouthing him.

Nobody comes out of this one looking good, Ashley. I mean, what do you make of all of this?

ALLISON: Eat my popcorn.

MALDONADO: I've known Kamala Harris for a long time, and she's never been this way. So it's kind of new to me. She's trying to sell a book, probably. But this notion of, hey, I was going to debate President Trump, and then all of a sudden, my boss, my president, called me, hey, I hear you're talking crap about me.

PHILLIP: It's crazy.

MALDONADO: Come on. It's crazy.

ALLISON: But can we all go back to that time? Those rumors were out there, and I think she's just saying, this is what happened. Look, there are there are audiences in this moment. There are people in the Democratic Party that are still very about what happened in 2024 and want to know why. And this book will give some people those answers. There are people that were part of what happened in 2024 and are hoping that all the answers aren't told. They may be in this book also. and some people in the Democratic Party need to be held to account about what actually happened. Why didn't we have a primary? Not in the 107 days, but like in 2022, 2023? And Kamala Harris did something that was historical and she deserves to write a book about it.

PHILLIP: But, OK, is this a book you write when you feel like you're going to do this whole thing again? I mean, this this reads like a burn book.

MALDONADO: Is she. Is she?

ALLISON: I don't know if she is.

MALDONADO: I don't think she is.

PHILLIP: I don't know. That what I'm saying. That's the question I have after all these revelations. Running for the presidency. She didn't run for governor. I think a lot of people thought it's because she might take some years to build up a political operation. But what's next?

AVLON: Look, I think this book, not only the tone, the fact she decided not to run for governor, this is about telling her truth around a historic moment that she was the Democratic nominee. And I think it is -- inevitably, some books are score settling, but it's also some truth telling. And that might go down difficultly. And I'm sure it's going to be a good read, but it does not read like a book by someone who is planning on running for president, because those are usually just pablum.

PHILLIP: Yes, yes. Last word?

FOSTER: I'm actually just curious if folks agree with her assessment that she and Pete Buttigieg wouldn't have made a good ticket because of --

PHILLIP: A lot of -- I can tell you for with 100 percent certainty, having talked to many Democrats about this, a lot of Democrats believe that, very high level Democrats.

MALDONADO: So in essence, we have a candidate running for president who her gut instinct says, I know who the right person is to run with me to win, but I'm not going to do it because of this. So I'm going to go with Tim Walz from Minnesota. Really? If you can't run a campaign, you really can't run the office that you're running for.

ALLISON: OK, we were like.

PHILLIP: She would be the first candidate to do something --

MALDONADO: Of course. ALLISON: But also, I mean, I think that the question that she was

saying that kind of segues back to our last segment is like, is America ready? Was America ready for Barack Obama and that pendulum swing? Is America ready for the first gay sitting vice president or president? I don't know the answer to that. And I don't mean -- I don't just mean Democrats or Republicans. I mean on the Democratic side, too.

PHILLIP: Yes.

All right, next for us, the panel's unpopular opinions, what they're not afraid to say out loud.

But first, a programing note. Don't miss CNN's concert event. The performances by Willie Nelson, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, and Dave Matthews, and more in Farm Aid 40, tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:53:37]

PHILLIP: We're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. John, you're up first.

AVLON: All right, we need more movies like "The Natural." We lost Robert Redford this week, obviously. But, you know, we're living through dark, dystopian times. That's the reality. And when you go to the movies, a lot of them are dark, dystopian films. And I know earnestness is unpopular right now, but we could all use a little bit more redemption. We could use some happy endings. And faced up against long odds. I remember that line that Robert Redford used in the movie. So the only thing I know about the dark is I can't see in it. More of that.

PHILLIP: All right.

FOSTER: Not unpopular. I like that.

PHILLIP: Not unpopular.

FOSTER: I'm going to try to be succinct about this. I've been thinking a bunch about the fact that there's like, something of 100 uncontacted tribes in South America and out in the Indian Ocean, like North Sentinel Island. And in general, people seem to think we shouldn't talk to these people. We should leave them alone. I have a very different perspective. I think we should go to them, bring them the light of today. We have better health care. We have got all sorts of cool technology. We have Shakespeare. We should be bringing them those things, not leaving them isolated all by themselves.

PHILLIP: Just don't kill them off with our disease.

FOSTER: No, no, we'll be careful. We'll be careful. But we should engage.

ALLISON: Maybe we should ask them first. That's an unpopular opinion.

OK, it was brought to my attention that the new iPhone is out, and apparently there were lines around the corner. Why? Why are you waiting in line to buy iPhone when you can just use your phone and buy it again?

PHILLIP: And just wait like three days.

ALLISON: And wait three days. Guess what. The phone today is the same phone tomorrow is the same phone.

[10:55:02]

It won't be in 18 months because they'll sell you another one. But like, why are people waiting in line for hours to get a phone when they have a phone in their hand, and for $2,000, too? Absolutely not.

PHILLIP: Good questions.

MALDONADO: Abby, brunch. Brunch is just an overpriced breakfast, and that's all it is.

PHILLIP: Abel, coming in hot.

MALDONADO: It's got good marketing. It's got good marketing. Add a couple mimosas, and we'll pay 50 bucks for a couple pancakes.

ALLISON: Abel.

(LAUGHTER)

MALDONADO: I knew that was going to happen.

ALLISON: Can a girl have nothing?

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: Listen, there's nothing worse --

AVLON: We're happy to pay for it. We're happy to pay for it.

PHILLIP: There's nothing worse than going into a restaurant on a weekend and expecting brunch, and then getting the lunch menu. No, thanks. No, thanks. OK. All day pancakes for me.

Everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our Newsnight roundtable, and anytime on your favorite social media, X, Instagram, and TikTok. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now this.

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