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CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. President Trump Posts Controversial Meme about Democratic House Minority Leader Hakeem Jefferies Comments on Current Government Shutdown; Federal Agents Raid Chicago Apartment Building to Arrest Illegal Immigrants, and They Also Detain American Citizens, Including Zip-Tying Children; War Secretary Pete Hegseth Calls U.S. Military Leaders to Meeting to Hear New Trump Administration Policies on Armed Forces Standards and Training Practices; Trump Administration Tariffs Hurting Business of American Soybean Farmers and May Lead to Government Bailout. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired October 04, 2025 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Today, it's the first government shutdown argued by meme.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody likes Democrats anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He painted me like a minion.
PHILLIP: Has America's attention society changed governing forever?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn't entertainment. And if it is entertainment, this is a really -- show.
PHILLIP: Plus, from Walmart to apartments, ICE raids are getting more violent and brash after Donald Trump's directive.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: We should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military.
PHILLIP: Also, the TV host turned defense secretary gathers the nation's military leaders to scold.
PETE HEGSETH, WAR SECRETARY: We became the woke department.
PHILLIP: Lecture.
HEGSETH: We are done with that --
PHILLIP: Groom.
HEGSETH: No more beardos.
PHILLIP: And green light. HEGSETH: Yes, they can put their hands on recruits.
PHILLIP: Is America's bro culture overtaking the military?
And the president swears his tariffs are bringing in billions, making America rich. So why is he promising a massive bailout to farmers hurt by his war?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It will oftentimes serve as a band-aid on a wound.
PHILLIP: Here in studio, Van Lathan, Scott Jennings, Ashley Allison, and Gail Huff-Brown.
It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Hello everyone. I'm Abby Phillip.
Once again, the United States government is a bleep show. For the first time in seven years, another shutdown. And while immigrants and health care is the policy issue at the center of the standoff, it's devolved into a fight over name calling and memes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D-NY) HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We are fighting to protect the health care of the American people in the face of an unprecedented Republican assault.
Mr. President, the next time you have something to say about me, don't cop out through a racist and fake A.I. video. When I'm back in the Oval Office, say it to my face.
(APPLAUSE)
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: I think it's funny. The president is joking, and we're having a good time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: They're having a good time. Here's how you know that the nation is divided. Some Americans, like Vance, find this all hilarious and entertaining, and proof that Democrats are to blame. Others see the Republicans celebrating a government shutdown, applauding videos and pink slips, and think the GOP is ultimately to blame for it as well.
But in the Capitol, where someone needs to cave to open the government back up and, frankly, do their jobs, who's messaging will actually apply the most pressure? Let me play what House Speaker Mike Johnson said about Trump's videos, which, by the way, he was confronted about not just in questions and interviews, but also by other members who cornered him about whether he endorses this kind of thing. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R-LA) HOUSE SPEAKER: Are they taking great pleasure in that? No. Is he trolling the Democrats? Yes. I mean, yes, because that's what President Trump does. And people are having fun with this. But at the end of the day, the decisions are tough ones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I don't see how you can reconcile saying that he's not taking pleasure in it, but he's also having fun in this moment while the government is shut down.
GAIL HUFF-BROWN, (R) FORMER CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE, NEW HAMPSHIRE: I think the memes are just a way of expressing, and it is a way of getting attention to the issue. The bottom line is that nobody should be taking the weekend off. Nobody should be taking next week off. They should all be back in session and get this to the Appropriations Committee where it belongs. I believe Senator Thune when he says that the Republicans are serious about looking at health care, but to be held hostage is not the way to do it.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I mean, yes, am I surprised that Trump is putting out memes? No. But it doesn't seem like he puts -- that meme he put out with Hakeem Jeffries and the sombrero on the mariachis was directly targeted at -- it was racist. It was like doing, it was playing a joke.
Now, if the left would put out a meme of somebody in MAGA with a rightwing type of symbol on them, we would be -- people would be outraged about it, right.
[10:05:03]
So we this whole last week, we've been talking about free speech. It's like, free speech for who? Funny memes for who? But most importantly, I don't want my president wasting time putting out memes. Like I want my president to be an adult and solve the problems. And I don't think the American people think this shutdown is funny. I think that folks are concerned, and folks are worried about the cost of living. And a racist meme is not how you solve the problem.
PHILLIP: I just -- I don't understand how the memes at all. And frankly, I saw, you know, Trump started with the memes, and then the Gavin Newsoms responded with more memes. It's just a dumbing down of our politics, and I don't see how it really raises attention to anything of substance.
Meanwhile, a new Kaiser Family Health tracking poll finds that a majority of Americans, regardless of party affiliation, by the way, say that the enhanced tax credits should not expire. That's Democrats, that's independents, that's Republicans, that's even among the Republicans, the ones who identify as MAGA Republicans. So in a way, actually, there is a there is a path out of this, which is to deal with the issue of the subsidies, even if they don't deal with all the other things, and reopen the government. Theres bipartisan support for it. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Of course. Of course, all
the other things is what the debate is about. Democrats, and some Republicans, I think, maybe many Republicans, I believe, will ultimately negotiate a continuation of these subsidies. Nobody wants health care premiums to go up. Although, I would note the political consultant Alex Castellanos is not all that affordable, as it turns out.
But the other debate about who is going to get taxpayer funded Medicaid in this country, that's what the memes are about. That's what the fight is about. Democrats want to make it about this subsidy issue. They don't run out to the end of the year, by the way. But the real thing is they filed legislation to repeal what the Republicans did this summer.
And so these two issues have been conflated. But the fact is, they don't just want the subsidies. They want other things. And the president is drawing attention to it, I think, in a pretty clever way. We just had a national emergency about telling jokes. I don't know why people can't take a joke.
PHILLIP: Medicaid is still not going to illegal immigrants, Scott.
JENNINGS: It is. It really does.
PHILLIP: It's not.
JENNINGS: It really does. It does in several blue states.
PHILLIP: It's not. Scott, no, it's not.
JENNINGS: It really does.
PHILLIP: Listen, the part of the bill that deals with the money that goes to states, it doesn't say anything about their immigration policy. So red state or blue state, those states are getting less money from the federal government. That still has to be dealt with. And that has nothing to do with immigration.
And again, Medicaid does not go to undocumented immigrants. SNAP does not go to undocumented immigrants. You know, CHIP does not go to undocumented immigrants.
JENNINGS: It absolutely does.
PHILLIP: I don't know. I mean, Scott, prove me wrong.
JENNINGS: How many blue states --
PHILLIP: Show me the law.
JENNINGS: How many how many blue states? Mike Johnson showed it in a gigantic poster on Friday.
PHILLIP: Scott, show me the U.S. code where it says that they're allowed to get Medicaid funding. JENNINGS: Where is it?
JENNINGS: I will show it on social media.
PHILLIP: It doesn't exist. In fact, the law says exactly the opposite. So it's --
JENNINGS: They're trying to repeal what the Republicans did this summer.
PHILLIP: Scott, that is a lie, OK?
JENNINGS: It is not.
PHILLIP: Now, you might want to dispute whether or not states should get reimbursed from the federal -- or should get federal dollars for Medicaid at the levels that they got it before. That's a different issue. But that's not an issue that's actually tied to immigration and you know it. But go ahead, Van.
VAN LATHAN, PODCAST CO-HOST, "HIGHER LEARNING": I mean, there's two parts of this. One is the political divide that we're seeing has led to the shutdown. The other one is a cultural discussion that I thought that we were having in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination about how we speak to one another. And it seemed that in the immediate aftermath, what was said was that we should talk to each other with respect. And at the baseline, we should treat each other like human beings as we're talking about these really important things. And just that quick, it was gone.
So it to me, the real question is the issues that we're talking about are serious. They affect people's ability to pay for their health care, people's ability to get the care that they need. Let's take them seriously. But even more so, even more than that, let's see if the people who we've elected, be it Trump, be it Hakeem Jeffries, whomever it is, if they're going to take us seriously enough to treat each other with respect so that we can normalize the discussion in the country.
PHILLIP: To that point, I mean, the country. President Trump put out this post on Truth Social on Thursday, saying "The party of hate, evil, and Satan."
LATHAN: Satan?
PHILLIP: Yes, Satan, and he includes a photo of Democratic lawmakers and, for whatever reason, a photo of Jill Biden. I mean, to Van's point, again, the politics, I'm all about policy debates, but that's not what's happening here. It's name-calling. It's silly memes, racist memes. We are not getting the American people to a place where we are actually addressing real issues. We're just dumbing down our politics.
Listen, this is not about who is right or wrong. It's actually just about the fundamental issue, which is that the government is closed. People are not getting paid. People can't even get their marriage licenses. I mean, the government in Washington D.C. -- [10:10:02]
JENNINGS: But the government could be open, could it not?
PHILLIP: It certainly could.
JENNINGS: It could be open for seven weeks.
PHILLIP: But this is government, right. And the path to resolving a conflict in government is negotiation. It's at least talking to one another. And that doesn't seem to be happening.
JENNINGS: They are talking. But Democrats have said we will only talk under the condition of the government being closed. I mean, Republicans have tried to open this with no policy changes for seven weeks. That's all they've asked for.
PHILLIP: The government is closed. Are they talking?
JENNINGS: I'm sure some members are talking?
PHILLIP: Has the president convened another meeting at the White House?
JENNINGS: He had one. And guess what? They wouldn't listen.
PHILLIP: Has the president convened since the government shutdown another meeting at the White House to try to resolve this? OK. So no. I mean, there is not an attempt to get people to the table. And that's a problem for real people out there in the country who are trying to figure out if they're going to get their next paychecks.
But next for us, a violent ICE raid in Chicago sparking questions about law enforcement tactics as Trump's push to turn American cities into training grounds actually comes to fruition.
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[10:15:44]
PHILLIP: Donald Trump wanted American cities to be training grounds, and ICE listened. In Chicago in the middle of the night, federal agents stormed an apartment building. Blackhawk helicopters, flash bangs, military style trucks, all used in the raid. Now, witnesses say everyone was detained, no matter their status. Children were zip tied together, separated from their parents. And the feds say that they arrested dozens of gang members. Also in the city, Charlie Kirk's group was given a front row seat to a raid inside a Walmart.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENNY JOHNSON, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Amazing. Secretary Noem was here. They rolled up a couple of guys, and it's rowdy. There were a lot -- there's a lot of people around. Everyone is filming. The secretary of Homeland Security is right now doing raids at Walmart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So as forewarned, I mean, we have a situation in which American cities are at the center of this ICE crackdown. And there's indiscriminate use of force against Americans, non-Americans, people here legally, people here illegally. And on the right, nobody seems to care. In fact, they love it.
LATHAN: I saw a video from a local station in Chicago, and residents of a community there were describing an ICE raid and like what they saw. Two things struck me. One, they were talking about things that happened to them. They were talking about how they were treated in this ICE raid. These are the people that, I guess, by virtue of being born here in America, are entitled to being treated like human beings.
The second thing is that they were all black. And I'm going to say something -- we saw this coming. We knew the neighborhoods where these ICE raids would take place. We knew that a lot of these things wouldn't happen in Beverly Hills or in Coconut Grove or any of those places like that. We knew that there would be collateral damage, that there would be trauma that would be inflicted on our communities. We knew that people would be detained, scared. We knew that children would have to see things that they shouldn't have to see.
And all of this for political theater so that we look tough, tough on immigration for everyone. It's a horror show. And I do think if it hasn't already happened, that it will be something that even the most conservative of Americans will get tired of seeing human beings treated this way. At least that's my hope.
PHILLIP: The one neighbor said "The kids were crying, they looked very distraught. I was out there crying. When I seen the little girl come around the corner because they were bringing kids down too, had them zip tied to each other," saying that there were trucks, military style vans used to separate adults from kids. What's going on?
HUFF-BROWN: I haven't seen any of this, so I -- and I certainly am not aware of particular neighborhoods that are targeted. Obviously, I support them finding and arresting people who are here illegally. And in the community there in, again, I can't justify I haven't seen which communities that they're targeting.
JENNINGS: One detail that's been left out is that they were targeting Tren de Aragua. And so Tren de Aragua is a violent transnational gang. They send illegal immigrants here to the United States. They traffic drugs, they traffic people. They commit violence. They inflict misery everywhere they go. And 37 people were arrested. That was the purpose of the raid, the targeting of Tren de Aragua, some of the most violent people in our hemisphere. And when they come here, nothing good happens.
PHILLIP: OK, so if it was targeting -- I don't think anybody has a problem with targeting. When you clear out an apartment building and you zip tie children, and you arrest and detain everyone --
(CROSS TALK) PHILLIP: Scott. Scott. Hold on, hold on, Scott. You and me, we're talking here. OK. If they arrest children, they arrest everyone, citizens and non-citizens for hours, detain them, deprive them of their liberty, no matter how long. You are fine with that.
JENNINGS: They didn't arrest children.
PHILLIP: I didn't say they arrested them. They put them in zip ties. But if that makes a difference to you, go ahead.
[10:20:00]
JENNINGS: Here's what makes a difference to me. If the federal government knows that there is a nest of Tren de Aragua in a city like Chicago, they have a responsibility, they have an obligation to go get them. It is unfortunate, to answer your question, that there are children put in harm's way by these violent gangs, but that is going to be the reality.
PHILLIP: Is it unfortunate, or is it a violation of their rights, is the question, because, I mean, in this country we have rights against searches illegal searches and seizure.
JENNINGS: Your suggesting these children should be effectively shields for Tren de Aragua.
(CROSS TALK)
LATHAN: What I'm asking. Hold on, I want to make it clear. I don't like -- I know that Tren de Aragua and gangs and whatever, it's a catchall to treat people however you want, to go in there and shred the Constitution or whatever else it is that you want to do. When I'm asking you is this -- do you think that children should have been zip tied and pulled out of an apartment complex and traumatized like that? Yes or no?
JENNINGS: I don't think children should be put in harm's way by transnational gangs.
LATHAN: Just answer the question, yes or no? Do you think that children --
JENNINGS: I don't accept the premise of your question.
LATHAN: I'm asking you whether or not --
JENNINGS: Thank you government is not putting children in harm's way. Tren de Aragua --
LATHAN: Real calm now. Real calm, like --
JENNINGS: They're the ones putting children in harm's way.
LATHAN: Gentlemen to gentlemen, we have a responsibility for the way we treat people with the power that we have here in America. And we have a standard that we should treat human life with. And I'm asking you very clearly, concisely, should children be treated that way? Does Scott Jennings like that.
JENNINGS: I don't accept the premise of your question.
LATHAN: All right, cool. We got it.
JENNINGS: I don't believe, I don't believe, I don't believe that the premise of your question is accurate. I would ask you back, should children be allowed to live in an apartment building with Tren de Aragua? Should the entire community of Chicago have to live with Tren de Aragua because they hide behind these children?
ALLISON: But here's the thing. I think the answer to that is clear. No, they should not be put in harm's way. But the difference is in this situation is I don't want to be Tren de Aragua. I don't want my law enforcement to act like Tren de Aragua. That is the distinction.
JENNINGS: You don't want to -- you just want to leave it and say, well, they have kids in there. Let's just move on.
ALLISON: No, but can't law enforcement figure out a way -- I don't think this is the first time children have been in an environment where dangerous people have been around them, and I'm most certain that in most of those circumstances, those children aren't zip tied and carried out like animals. What I'm wondering is, OK, let's put this fact pattern on any other placement. Let's put it on a school, right? What if there was a gang member in a school? And by this calculation, it would seem like the children in the school, in order to get that one gang member or two gang members --
JENNINGS: It's not one gang member. It's 37.
ALLISON: Well, let's say --
PHILLIP: Scott, it's a large apartment building. That's part of the fact pattern here.
I mean, here's another one from our reporting, tenants said it appears everyone in the building was detained by federal officers, including U.S. citizens. "It was scary," said one, "because I had never had a gun in my face." That person lives in the building. "They asked my name and my date of birth and asked me, did I have any warrants? I told them, no, I didn't. Fisher", this this person says, she was handcuffed anyway before being released around 3:00 a.m. and was told anyone with outstanding warrants, even if it was unrelated to immigration, would not be released. So in the - again --
LATHAN: Please, like, seriously.
PHILLIP: People live in apartment buildings all over this country.
LATHAN: I promise --
(CROSS TALK)
JENNINGS: -- I just go to an apartment building and hide? LATHAN: Wait a second, wait a second, I'm talking about the way that
citizens of this country was treated. By the way, I make -- I just want to be clear. I think that everybody that's created in the image of God should be treated with respect. And I thought that part of the American ideal was that. But that's gone. I promise you, I will still be invited to Mar-a-Lago. If you say that it is wrong that children were zip tied and that American people, American citizens, were detained without any warrant or suspicion.
JENNINGS: Briefly detained in an in an effort to get 37 Tren de Aragua members.
LATHAN: So tell me --
JENNINGS: So what you're suggesting --
ALLISON: You would be OK with being detained, would you be OK with your rights being violated and you be held until 3:00 a.m. with your family not knowing why, would that be OK? Because that's not OK with me.
JENNINGS: Everybody here seems to believe that if you're Tren de Aragua, you can go hide in an apartment building and because there are other people there. You just get to be left alone. That is not a reasonable enforcement position.
PHILLIP: There's another option here, and it's actually an option that's utilized by law enforcement every single day in this country. When they are looking for violent people, they go look for those violent people. They do not subject the people around those violent people who have nothing to do with them with arrest, with guns in their faces, with being searched, with being zip-tied and handcuffed and detained. Every day in America, law enforcement does their jobs, and they don't do it like this. So why is suddenly --
JENNINGS: Every day in America, you're not necessarily dealing with the most violent people in the hemisphere.
PHILLIP: Actually, yes, we are.
(CROSS TALK)
[10:25:01]
PHILLIP: Scott, Scott, there are violent people who are right here in this country, American citizens. They are in gangs. They were born here. Their parents were born here. Their grandparents were born here.
JENNINGS: Believe me, we know.
PHILLIP: Those people are dealt with by law enforcement every day. Again, it's a real basic question. If you lived in an apartment building and there happened to be somebody who was guilty of a terrible crime in that building, and law enforcement barged in, guns blazing, and put every single person in that apartment building under arrest, you would be fine with that. Including you and your family. JENNINGS: Not everybody is under arrest. They arrested 37 people.
PHILLIP: Scott --
JENNINGS: They arrested 37. You said everybody. It's not. It's 37 people.
PHILLIP: Scott, this person was sleeping in their bed and they were detained. They were put in handcuffs and detained.
JENNINGS: Neither you nor I were there. Neither you nor I were there. I know this now. Now 37 violent people are off the street.
PHILLIP: I'm just asking, you and your family, Scott. You and your family. You are in an apartment building. You and your family. You would be fine with your liberty being held up, your kids, your wife, your children, being detained for any amount of time because somebody in that building was a criminal? You'd be fine with that.
JENNINGS: You are vastly oversimplifying what's happening here. There are scores of illegal immigrants --
PHILLIP: I think sometimes we have to simplify things so that we actually understand what we're talking about, because I do think that this is a problem now for the rest of the country. People are going about their lives, and they are not responsible for the crimes of other people. And yet in this world in which ICE is operating like this, they are being detained for other people's crimes.
LATHAN: Can I say something just real quick, real quick. I'm 15 years old. I'm in my driveway, sitting down, doing my homework, legitimately sitting down, doing my homework in my driveway, sitting down, the way we used to call it, Native American style. I'll be woke about it. Like cop rolls up, cop rolls up, stand up, stand up, turn around. Handcuffed, handcuffed. Fifteen. I'm like, what's going on? Pulled me next to the car, blah blah blah, don't do anything. You're OK. Don't do anything. You're OK. I'm handcuffed. I'm sitting next to the car, whole deal.
Things get more dire as the seconds tick on, right? My dad ends up coming down the street. He sees things, he freaks out. Don't you know who this boy is? This boy has never done anything, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of this happens. I'm upset, I'm upset, I'm mad. Everything.
The next day I go to the school. I talk to one of my teachers. This is a teacher that all I did was argue with him about, dyed in the wool conservative. Like he was a religion teacher, right? A dyed in the wool conservative. We argue every single day. The first thing he said to me is that shouldn't have happened to you. The first thing, as he then tried to tell me about the police and the hard job that the police have and all of that. The first thing that he said to me, I'll never forget it, is I don't want you to think that anything that I'm about to say means that that should have happened to you, because that shouldn't have happened to you.
Something has changed. And like, and we need to get our arms around it real quick. Something has changed fundamentally.
PHILLIP: There's willingness to accept a whole lot of collateral violation of rights of anybody, whether you're American citizens or not, because there are many rights in this country that are in the Constitution that don't -- it doesn't matter if you're a citizen or not, you're still entitled to them.
We're going to leave it there for that one. Coming up, no matter -- no more woke and no more beards. It's bro culture over at the Pentagon. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:32:52]
PHILLIP: One of the more surreal moments of the week came inside a room at Quantico, where the nation's top military leaders were suddenly summoned from all around the world. The reason? Well, apparently, to pronounce that woke is dead. The defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, used his time to declare new grooming and fitness standards, including the fat shaming of generals. But it was comments like these that raised some eyebrows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, WAR SECRETARY: No more politically correct and overbearing rules of engagement. If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is.
No more frivolous complaints, no more anonymous complaints.
Yes, they can put their hands on recruits.
We're undertaking a full review of the department's definitions of so- called toxic leadership, bullying, and hazing to empower leaders to enforce standards.
We are done with that --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: The speech made it seem as if the world's greatest fighting force had been a failure, a broken institution. But how much of that lecture was about legitimizing corrections versus instilling America's bro culture into what is supposed to be an apolitical outfit?
The big thing that he seemed to be focused on was allowing people to be toxic again at the Pentagon, which is interesting. Some of that had to do with the way that recruits are treated. Let me just play what he said about drill sergeants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We're empowering drill sergeants to instill healthy fear in new recruits, ensuring that future warfighters are forged. Yes, they can shark attack. They can toss bunks. They can swear, and yes, they can put their hands on recruits. This does not mean they can be reckless or violate the law, but they can use tried and true methods to motivate new recruits.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I mean, why? Like, I think that's basically the question a lot of people ask, why? What is the point of all of this?
JENNINGS: Well, I interviewed Secretary Hegseth some weeks ago for my book that comes out in November, and he was talking a lot at the time about the warrior ethos.
[10:35:00]
This is a big topic of conversation for him and he described what he believed had happened in the military culture to me as that a wet blanket had been put on the military by all these rules and sort of cultural experimentation and so on and so forth. And at the time, this is several weeks ago, he said, I'm going to ultimately remove this wet blanket. And that's, I think, part of the culmination of this plan.
There are a lot of conservatives who believe the military has gotten soft and has taken its focus off of being lethal and put it on other things. I think this is part of that. I think he also has a plan to reorganize the officer ranks and have fewer four stars and fewer people at the top, more middle leadership. So they've got a whole plan about culture and leadership.
PHILLIP: All right, so why is he so obsessed with allowing people to be more toxic, essentially weakening the whistleblower system, even maybe expunging older complaints from people's records so that they can move on with their lives after a certain amount of time has passed. I don't understand what the obsession is with sort of going back to what he called, like, the 1990s standard for the conduct of both the troops and officers in the military.
HUFF-BROWN: Well, you keep calling it toxic. What --
PHILLIP: No, I didn't call it that. He used that word.
HUFF-BROWN: That was the word --
PHILLIP: He explicitly said that there's too much focus on toxic leadership. Those were his words, not mine. I don't even know what he means by "toxic leadership", but he thinks it's bad that people are described as toxic.
HUFF-BROWN: Well, "toxic" is a pretty loaded word. I will say, as a woman, that I am happy that we have a pretty large female population that has gone into military service. I think we will continue to despite the fact that they are going to require the same physical fitness for women, that they are men, at least for those going into combat. But more and more, you know, our fighting force is going to be about cybersecurity. It's going to be -- it's not going to be the man on man fighting in the middle of a field. PHILLIP: Which I think is such an important point. I mean, I wish
that there were more of a focus on preparedness for what future war is going to look like, because it's going to be drones. It's going to be people who can, you know, program, who can operate complex machinery. And I'm not saying that physical fitness is not important, but when you really think about what war is going to look like against Russia and China and Iran, boy, some of that stuff falls much lower on the list.
ALLISON: You know, I was going down a TikTok rabbit hole about this speech. But, you know, I saw a lot of people on the app talking about if you don't serve in the military, I think you should just stand down and not have an opinion on this. And I actually, like, took a pause and I was like, you know, I actually don't know what it feels like to serve this country through military service. I've been a public servant, but not through the military. And I appreciate people who dedicate their lives to protect the freedoms that we are -- I feel like are so quickly slipping away.
I think that a lot of the reasons, the rules that exist on the military that the secretary would call a wet blanket actually exists is because something happened to actually trigger them to be in existence. Right? So we know that there was a massive issue around cover-ups around sexual assault for women in the military.
PHILLIP: Specifically in 1990, the year that he seems to think was the paragon of greatness in military.
ALLISON: Right. And so I would hope that if you sexually assault somebody, you would not be enabled and empowered to lead in this government or -- well, not this government, we know that isn't true. But at least lead in the military or enable that to happen. Putting your hands on somebody, like, sure, if you think that's what makes it stronger. But that is what he is meaning, like, we're going to get that away.
And it wasn't even so much what he said. It was how he said it. And I think when he said "perhaps", that little inflection in his voice is what I heard in that was like, go as far as you can. We'll have your back.
PHILLIP: We've got to leave it there.
Next for us, Donald Trump says tariffs are making America rich. So then why are taxpayers now the ones footing the bill for struggling farmers? We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:43:56]
PHILLIP: Donald Trump says his tariff wars are making America rich. So why is the president giving a bailout to farmers who have been hurt badly by those very tariffs? Soybean and corn farmers can't sell their crops because China stopped buying altogether. They're also grappling with rising prices for supplies. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALEB RAGLAND, SOYBEAN FARMER: It is hurting prices and it is causing lots of uncertainty for our industry as a whole. Soybeans are the largest ag product that is exported from the United States, so this is a big deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So in short, the money taken in by tariffs is going to hurt many people that Trump said that he was going to help, in fact, many people that voted for Trump. I can ask you about the economic policy of this all, but I actually am wondering, I mean, do you do you care?
LATHAN: Yes, certainly. I care about the immiseration of people. Like, no matter whether or not -- I haven't seen one farmer complaining with blue hair and a pronoun. Not one. The guys that I've seen complaining about this are from central casting as far as the people you would think would be taken care of in this economy.
[10:45:05]
And they hit a wall two or three months ago when they were like, wait, what, what? Like what's happening? And we had a guy, Jeremy Peaches, that's his name, on our podcast where we discussed the problems and the hurdles that farmers are facing, black farmers and farmers at large, are facing. And they're scared.
And the changes that they see, and this was the most important thing that they've said to me, the changes that they see, they're wondering if they can be undone. So a bailout is one thing, and giving them momentary relief is one thing. But they're wondering if there's going to be a change that lasts for a generation to their business.
PHILLIP: That's a very important question at this moment. Go ahead, Gail.
HUFF-BROWN: I think that what we have to do is we are going to have to find other markets. I mean, Japan is not taking our rice. As you know, China now is not taking a lot of our soybeans. One of the problems we have, and this is one of the things the tariffs are supposed to help with, is open a lot of these markets. And I think it's really too early to tell whether or not, you know, there's going to be a long-term effect. But I think farmers should get some help in the short term.
PHILLIP: China, China -- I don't have the numbers in front of me, but China's massive population is really not a market that we can have completely turned off. I mean, it's like 25 percent of the entire market.
JENNINGS: They're currently negotiating with China on updated trade agreements.
PHILLIP: So then why are we bailing out farmers to the tune of $50 billion? JENNINGS: Because it's apparent China has played hardball with some sectors of our agriculture economy here while we work this out. What you hope is that the president and the Chinese government can come together on a trade agreement that encompasses everything. Obviously, the big news on that has always been TikTok. But underneath that is that it is a market for a lot of things. And in the short run, there's no doubt some farmers have been hurt.
Now, in other trade deals, other farmers are ecstatic. The beef guys are really happy with what he's doing in Europe. But on this China deal, what you hope is when the final trade deal comes in, which should be soon, that you'll get a deal --
PHILLIP: What kind of negotiating position are we in when China knows that they've put us up against the wall, that our farmers are begging for a bailout. And then we are also bailing out, by the way, Argentina, which is now selling --
LATHAN: Their competitor.
PHILLIP: They're competing with us, but we're bailing out the people competing with our farmers. I mean, make it make sense.
Next for us, the panel's unpopular opinions, what they're not afraid to say out loud.
But first, a quick programing note. Tonight, an all new episode of "Have I Got News for You", comedians John Hodgman and Akilah Hughes join the gang to dig into the headlines of the week. It airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:52:33]
PHILLIP: We're back and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30s seconds to tell us yours. Gail, you're up first.
HUFF-BROWN: OK, here's my unpopular opinion. We have to get rid of pumpkin pie. It is the most disgusting thing.
LATHAN: Yes, you're right.
HUFF-BROWN: If you have to add two cups of sugar, four different spices, a cup of cream to make it taste good, you know what, it probably shouldn't be in a pie.
PHILLIP: It should be sweet potato pie.
HUFF-BROWN: Forget pumpkin pies.
JENNINGS: What pies don't have sugar in them?
HUFF-BROWN: No, no, no, but pumpkin pie --
JENNINGS: We put sugar in all our pies. I strongly oppose this. HUFF-BROWN: I do not put sugar in my apple pie and it's delicious.
PHILLIP: What?
ALLISON: What?
HUFF-BROWN: You don't need it.
LATHAN: If you're not putting sugar in it, they being nice. I'm sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
LATHAN: They being nice. If you're not putting any sugar in it, they being nice. I'm sorry. You've have a beautiful, lovely family. But they being nice to you.
LATHAN: This is going to sound weird to a lot of people who follow us over on the ringer. There's too much football. There's too much football. Like last week, I spent -- I was on the couch from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. on Saturday. And then I was on the couch from 10:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. on Sunday. I was in a daze. I didn't drink any water, just beer and wings. It's too much football. And it starts on Thursday night, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday football. I have to watch all the games. It's too much. It's too much football.
ALLISON: You have to?
LATHAN: It's Monday as well.
HUFF-BROWN: I have to watch.
(LAUGHTER)
LATHAN: Yes, I got to know. Man.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: -- toxic attitude.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: You're mad about the toxic culture. Get Van out of here. It's offensive to me. It's offensive to me.
PHILLIP: Toxic bro culture over here.
Go ahead, Ashley.
ALLISON: OK, so I think if I've had to buy a ticket or I'm paying my money to be someplace, there should not be a dress code. So like at a restaurant, I don't think there should be -- you should have to have a jacket, or if you want to wear shorts or flip flops, if a club, like just let people, if they're giving you the money, just let them come.
JENNINGS: President Trump warned you in August. Taylor Swift is not hot anymore. And you all wouldn't listen. You all would not listen. And now look at her. According to the Internet, her album is terrible, and she's on there singing about all sorts of vulgar things, including some say, genitalia.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Some say --
JENNINGS: Her fans are in disbelief. Her fans are in disbelief.
ALLISON: Stop. Stop while you're ahead.
[10:55:00]
JENNINGS: Trump was right. She may have entered her washed up era, according to what I read on the Internet. I will caveat this by saying that one person said she was singing about other things other than what I mentioned. But I'm just saying, it's not good out there. And the president once again, you've just got to listen to the president. He knew it in August. Look where we are.
LATHAN: I'm going to tell you something right now, you about to find out.
(LAUGHTER)
ALLISON: I know. Big time.
LATHAN: That clip, put it on twitter. You about to find out. Just wait.
JENNINGS: I defend my position.
LATHAN: You about to find out.
ALLISON: On Beyonce's internet, you are about to get --
LATHAN: Swifties, get to work. Get to work, Swifties. You about to find out.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: They're the ones that are mad. They are mad at it. They think it's terrible.
PHILLIP: I feel like I have to read a disclaimer. The opinions expressed at this table do not reflect this program.
ALLISON: You can take it up with Scott at home.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIP: Everybody, thank you very much.
JENNINGS: I don't understand, it's literally in the research. You guys got to read stuff. PHILLIP: Thank you very much. Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE".
You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our Newsnight Roundtable. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues next.
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