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CNN Live Event/Special
Shutdown America: A CNN Town Hall with Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Aired 9-10:30p ET
Aired October 15, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(APPLAUSE)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: You are looking at live pictures of the nation's capital, which is at a standstill tonight as the country hits day 15 of the government shutdown.
Welcome to CNN's town hall with independent Senator Bernie Sanders and Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I'm Kaitlan Collins.
And, tonight, as the shutdown enters its third week, there are still no signs of a deal here in Washington. Republican Speaker Mike Johnson is warning that this could be one of the longest shutdowns in history. Democrats say they won't budge without addressing the rising costs of health care.
But caught in the middle are the American people, including more than a million federal workers who are going without pay this evening. Two of the nation's most prominent leaders on the left are here to take our questions tonight about their strategy and what it will take to reopen the government.
We also invited prominent Republicans to participate in a town hall, including the Senate majority leader, the House speaker and the vice president. Those invitations stand and we hope that those leaders will join us.
To find our questioners tonight, we reached out to political and business groups, universities and other civic organizations. Our questioners are Democrats, Republicans and independents, some of whom are federal workers here in their personal capacity. They have asked that their party affiliation not be disclosed.
Tonight's participants will be asking their own questions selected by CNN to cover a variety of topics. You might see them holding a piece of paper that has their question on it. It's a question they wrote, and it has not been edited in any way by CNN.
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
(CHEERING)
COLLINS: Thank you, Senator. SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
COLLINS: And also Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York.
(CHEERING)
COLLINS: Thank you so much. It's so great to have you here.
And, of course, it's so great to have both of you here. We have so many audience questions tonight, really good ones.
And, Senator Sanders, just in terms of how long this shutdown has gone on, you and I have spoken multiple times during this, but we're now on the 15th day. The ninth vote to reopen the government failed. Do you think Speaker Johnson is right when he says that this could be one of the longest government shutdowns in U.S. history?
SANDERS: No.
I think the Republicans are catching on that you can't throw 15 million Americans off of the health care they have. And studies indicate that, when you do that, some 50,000 Americans a year will die unnecessarily.
And then, on top of that, just in Vermont today, Kaitlan, people in my state and all over this country are beginning to receive notices from insurance companies about what their new premiums will be if we do not stop what Trump is doing.
In my state of Vermont, there are people today who received notices that their premiums are going to quadruple, quadruple, some less, three times. In my state of Vermont -- and, again, this is true in many parts of the country, middle-class families will be paying $50,000 a year for health care.
Anyone think that's sane? It's not. Who can afford that? Republicans are catching on they're playing a losing hand. They are going to come to the table finally and address the health care crisis that they have created.
COLLINS: OK, so you think Republicans will come to the table sooner, rather than later.
The White House has not indicated as much. And, today, the budget director, Russ Vought, said that north of 10,000 federal workers could be laid off during this government shutdown. Does that make Democrats rethink their strategy at all?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I don't think so.
I think that what Russ Vought just announced today in the laying off of federal workers, we learned today a judge has put a temporary restraining order because it is likely illegal what he and the Trump administration is doing. The problem is that this administration, the Trump administration, folks like Russ Vought, they think that destroying our health care, making sure that housing is too expensive to live in, that jacking up the costs of our groceries, they think all of this is about hurting Democrats.
What they are doing is hurting Americans. And they are hurting this country. And if Mike Johnson wants to say that this shutdown is going to last a long time, it is because he is choosing to punish the American people, and we cannot stand for it and we cannot allow it.
And we also cannot enable it by acquiescing and enabling the behavior of bullies. So it ends today.
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: If I could just add to something Alexandria said...
COLLINS: Go ahead, Senator.
SANDERS: ... this is the cynicism of the speaker of the House. Where are your Republican colleagues tonight? They're back here in Washington negotiating?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: That's an excellent question, Bernie.
Right now, House Democrats are in Washington, D.C. Senate Democrats are in Washington, D.C. Even Senate Republicans, I believe, are still in Washington, D.C.
SANDERS: Yes.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: The only people who are not in Washington, D.C., are the over 200 elected Republicans in the House of Representatives, because Speaker of the House Mike Johnson refuses to call the House in session. He refuses to also seat Adelita Grijalva, because they want to prevent the 218th signature on release of the Epstein files as well.
COLLINS: Can I ask you on that? Because Speaker Johnson was asked about that today and he said it has nothing to do with that. It's that so she can have all the pomp and circumstance that is afforded to most members when they're sworn in.
Do you -- you don't believe that?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: No, Mike Johnson has sworn in several members, Republican members, in pro forma sessions. He understands that the importance of this country, the importance of representation is not about pomp and circumstance.
And, in fact, it's not just about Representative Grijalva. It's about the over 700,000 people in the state of Arizona, veterans, seniors, teachers, students, who do not have anyone to call in an emergency because their elected representative that has been certified at municipal, state, and the federal level with federal acknowledgement, he refuses to seat a duly elected official here in the House of Representatives.
COLLINS: So we have a lot of questions tonight for people who are here in Washington.
And, Representative Ocasio-Cortez, this first question is for you. This is Alicia Dolford, who is from Camp Springs, Maryland, and is a TSA officer who's active in her local federal employees union.
Thank you so much for being here. What's your question?
ALICIA DOLFORD, TSA OFFICER: Thank you for having me.
As the month November approaches, many of us are facing serious hardships as we enter week three of the shutdown. Some are at risk of eviction or mortgage default, and local rental companies and lenders have become silent or refused to work with employees presenting DHS debt letters.
What protections or emergency actions can be taken to prevent these workers and their families from losing their homes during this time?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, thank you so much for your question, and particularly as a TSA employee. I represent La Guardia Airport.
DOLFORD: Yes.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And so I know very, very well all the hard work that you all do and put in.
DOLFORD: Yes, ma'am.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And you all deserve a dignified workplace. You deserve a safe workplace. And you deserve the paycheck that you are working for.
What I believe the best thing that we can do is to reopen the government right now and to ensure and to also call on our representatives and put pressure on individuals like the speaker of the House to actually pick up the phone.
The problem here is not that there is a dis -- it's not even that there is a disagreement. It's that the speaker of the House and the Trump administration refuses to even have a negotiation. They refuse to even pick up the phone and talk about this.
And so I do not want us to start to agree with what Mike Johnson is saying and to have them preview for us and normalize the idea that everyone's just going to miss a paycheck, that a million federal workers are just going to go without that and to just warn that in advance and to have us accept that.
This is not acceptable. This is not normal. And what is normal is for us to negotiate. When one party wants the votes of another party, you negotiate, you come to a compromise, and you pass a bill. That is "Schoolhouse Rock!"
(LAUGHTER)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And that is how things should be. So I thank you for that. And I want to make sure that we, of course, pass a bevy of federal protections for workers, but we don't want them to be necessary in the first place.
COLLINS: Yes, and, Senator Sanders, on that front, on government shutdowns before, obviously, you have said before that you believe shutting down the government is a serious and dangerous action. You said that we must do everything possible to prevent it.
SANDERS: Right.
COLLINS: What would you say to people who are missing their paychecks about why it's worth it now?
SANDERS: Well, let me just -- first of all, thank you very much for your service. And we're going to do everything we can and move as quickly as we can to make sure you get your paychecks.
But I want to just back up a little bit to discuss how we got to where we are, because I'm not sure everybody knows this. What Alexandria was just saying is, in the House, majority rules. They passed the budget.
In the Senate, not quite the case. It needs 60 votes, okay? That's been going on for a very long time.
And the reason for the 60 votes is to encourage bipartisan negotiations. All right? Republicans have 53 people in their caucus. Democrats, including independents, have 47. You got to talk.
This time for the first time in history, what Republicans are saying, "Yeah, we don't have 60 votes. We're not talking to you. Our way or the highway."
And what we are saying, "Sorry, you got to sit down and talk to us. You got to deal with the health care crisis in this country."
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Well, and they have both -- Republicans have argued that Democrats should reopen the government and then they'll negotiate. Where do you both stand on that prospect?
SANDERS: I don't -- no, based on their history, they have had months and months. This is not a new thing.
Ever since Trump's Big, Beautiful Bill was passed, we knew this was happening. They have refused to negotiate. And anyone thinks that tomorrow, they'll suddenly start negotiating I think is smoking what is illegal in many states.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: Okay.
On that front, let's go to the next question --
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): And should be legal and more.
COLLINS: -- from the audience.
Senator Sanders, this one's for you. This is Jeffrey Katz, who is a tax attorney from Potomac, Maryland, who says he's a Democrat who voted for President Trump in the last election.
Jeffrey, what's your question?
JEFFREY KATZ, TAX ATTORNEY: Senator Sanders, you said 50,000 people could die from ACA subsidy cuts. But right now, 1.4 million federal workers aren't getting paid.
How do you justify choosing a fight over subsidies that might help people in the future over workers who are definitely suffering today?
SANDERS: You are talking to, along with Alexandria, one of the strongest pro-worker members of the United States Congress. We are going to fight for federal workers.
And by the way, in terms of the AFGE union, you are aware that our friend in the White House, basically in an unprecedented way, decided he wasn't going to have that union anymore, et cetera, et cetera.
We're going to fight for federal employees. But what you just said, about 50,000 people dying a year, this is based on studies done from the University of Pennsylvania and Yale. You take 15 million people off of their health care, by and large, low income and working class people.
What do you think is going to happen to them? They don't go to a doctor. They have chronic problems. They will die.
So, this issue -- and by the way, if I may, it's not only about health care. Do you know why we are in the situation we are today? Why do you think Trump and his friends made massive cuts to Medicaid and are forcing us to double premiums for the ACA?
They gave the 1 percent in this country a trillion dollars in tax breaks.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: A trillion dollars in tax breaks at a time when we have more income and wealth inequality than any time in the history of this country.
So, I am not going to sit back and say, yeah, we're going to let 50,000 people die so that Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and other multibillionaires can get a tax break.
COLLINS: But can I ask you in terms of negotiations and what's realistic for the subsidies which expire at the end of December? Obviously, open enrollment starts November 1st.
Over in the House, there are 14 House Republicans who have said that they will sign on and they will vote for a one year extension of the subsidies. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries said he thought that proposal was laughable.
Do you think that's laughable, or is that something you could get behind?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yeah, no, let me tell you why it's laughable because it's cynical. Republicans want to sign on to just a one little extra year of these ACA subsidies. You want to know why? What's happening next year? Midterm elections.
They want to extend these subsidies just a year extra so that people don't realize the dupe that they are pulling on everyone so that they can all reelect themselves and allow those things to expire the moment that they win reelection.
And it is time to get politics out of what should be a guaranteed universal right in the United States of America, and that is health care. And so, I will not accept a measly one-year acceptance of -- a measly one-year extension of the ACA.
We need to make sure and I -- and as a member of the party, we put negotiations in the hands of our party's leadership with Hakeem Jeffries. He says it's no, it's no.
And we have to make sure that we are expanding and continuing the fight and not allowing -- not falling for the fine print, not falling for the tricks and not falling for the politics around this.
SANDERS: If I could add to what Alexandria was saying, it's not just 15 million people losing their health insurance, and it's not just tens of millions of people seeing a doubling or tripling in their premiums. Our health care system -- and you guys can argue with me if you want -- I think our health care system is broken. I think it is dysfunctional --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: -- and I think it's on the verge of collapse.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: And understand that when we talk about these massive cuts to health care from Trump and his friends, you're talking about cuts to nursing homes. You're talking about cuts to rural hospitals. You're talking about cuts to community health centers, where 32 million people get their primary care. This system is on the verge of collapse.
And I would hope that everybody in this room and everybody in America ask themselves a very simple question, why is the United States the richest country in the history of the world, the only major nation not to guarantee health care to all people as a human right?
COLLINS: So, can I ask? If a one-year extension you say is measly and doesn't cut it, what exactly do you want to see? What would you vote for?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, again, you know, negotiations are all about a back and forth, and the idea of accepting something for nothing I don't think is something that we're prepared to do. And by that, I mean, that requires Mike Johnson saying what he's willing to do and engaging in those negotiations with Hakeem Jeffries.
And so, this is a team sport. This is about making sure that we're all can come to something that we can agree with.
So, you know, I think we know what we will not accept, and what we will not accept is for these ACA premiums to skyrocket on the American people. What we will not accept is the doubling of these premiums. And what we will not accept is allowing the teetering of this system to collapse right before everyone's eyes.
COLLINS: Okay. So, you won't accept one year.
I know, Senator, you said that you believe they should be permanent, but in terms of what actually happens next year, what do you need to see for the government to be reopened? Can you walk me through what that looks like?
SANDERS: Look, I have a radical idea. Are you ready for a radical idea?
Let's do what the American people want. Do a poll. Do a poll on CNN.
Ask people -- ask people, how many do you think it's a great idea to give $1 trillion in tax breaks to the 1 percent and decimate the American health care system? And if you do not have a -- do not have a strong majority of Republicans, Democrats and independents saying that is crazy, I will be surprised.
Let's do what the American people want. And at the very least, as we continue to fight for Medicare for All single-payer system, we're going to protect people today from losing their health care or from seeing their premiums skyrocket, seeing nursing homes, community health centers decimated.
COLLINS: But let's say that the White House and Republican leaders say that they will extend these subsidies. It's not clear how long, because you say one year is not enough. They haven't even really put that forward yet.
I think the question is, does that need to be enshrined into law? What does that need to look like before you would vote to reopen the government?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Oh, I mean --
COLLINS: Or is a commitment from the White House and Republicans enough?
SANDERS: Oh, yeah, no doubt.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I mean --
SANDERS: The president is a very honest man.
(LAUGHTER)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yeah.
SANDERS: And if he says something, man, you can take it to the bank.
COLLINS: So, you're saying his word is not enough?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Bankruptcy court.
SANDERS: His word? No.
COLLINS: So, what would -- what do you need to see? What commitments from Republicans?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I think we need to see ink on paper. I think we need to see legislation. I think we need to see votes. And I think we need to see these things pass on the floor of the House and the Senate and signed by President Trump.
I don't accept IOUs. I don't accept pinky promises. That's not the business that I'm in.
COLLINS: Okay, so you need a signature from President Trump --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Absolutely.
COLLINS: -- in order to vote to reopen the government?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Correct.
COLLINS: Okay, Senator Sanders, we've got another question. This one's for you.
This is Logan Carey, who is a student at American University who's a member of College Republicans and has volunteered for Republican campaigns.
Thank you for being here, Logan. You're from Greene, Maine. What's your question for the senator?
LOGAN CAREY, STUDENT: Thank you.
Senator Sanders, which specific Republicans leaders do you believe you can work with to pass a C.R. and reopen the government?
SANDERS: Look, that's a great question, Logan. And let me tell you, I can mention a number of them. There are some decent, honest Republicans.
And, you know, in American society, we believe in democracy. You're conservative Republican. Not that -- we disagree. So what? It's called America. We have different points of view. I got to tell you, though, if I may -- one of the things that has concerned me very, very much and -- is that we are seeing the Republican Party doing less of representing their districts and their states than just swearing allegiance to the president of the United States.
Now, I never thought that I would say this, but you have somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene saying, you know what? I was elected by my constituents. That's who I am beholden to, not the president of the United States.
So, there are good Republicans out there. And if Trump would leave them alone for five minutes and not threaten them with a primary if they stood up and did the right thing, I think we can make progress.
I will give you one story. Thom Tillis, conservative Republican from North Carolina. When we're debating this Big, Beautiful Bill, Tillis looks at the bill. He says, "This is a disaster for North Carolina. I can't vote for it."
Literally the next day, Trump was all over social media. The billionaires were all over saying, "Okay, you're finished. We're going to primary you." And a day later, this guy says: I'm out of here. I'm not running for reelection.
All right? That's where we are right now. And that is a very serious problem.
COLLINS: You mentioned Marjorie Taylor Greene. She's your colleague over in the House. The way she frames this is, she says, Democrats created this mess, but Republicans don't have any solutions to fix the health care issue either.
Is she someone that you could see yourself working with?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: On what?
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: On the health care.
(LAUGHTER)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I mean, listen, I think people can talk a good game, but until they actually support policy that helps people, I'm not particularly interested.
But if she wants to -- if she actually wants to support legislation and expanding health care, I have worked with plenty of Republicans as well on health care. I have a bill that I have introduced with Congresswoman Malliotakis, Republican from New York, on expanding maternal health and reauthorizing the Healthy Start program to help newborn -- newborns and new moms be able to support their kids.
And so, in terms of bipartisan legislation on health care, I'm more than open to doing that. But it's not just about talking the talk. We have got to walk the walk.
COLLINS: And you would need to see her actually support something that you're behind in terms of legislation on health care?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes. Yes.
COLLINS: Our next question is for you, Representative. This is a video question. It's from Erik Johnson, who lives in Hernando, Mississippi. He's an air traffic controller and a father of four who is joining us via video tonight. This is his question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIK JOHNSON, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: What do you suggest government workers do for food money when the paychecks stop coming?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I mean, these are the real questions that we have to be entertaining.
And, as I mentioned earlier, the best and most important solution to this is making sure that we reopen the government, not accept the inevitability of this, and come to a resolution as quickly as possible. Extending this shutdown would be a choice.
Mike Johnson saying we want to make this the longest shutdown, saying this -- to prepare for this being the longest shutdown, that's not leadership. That is abdication of responsibility. It's an abdication to families like his and a complete abdication of the responsibility that we have to people.
Now, that being said, we do have to make sure that we come together as communities, and that we also systemically expand our programming, like the SNAP cuts that just happened, in addition to the trillion dollars in health care cuts as well, for families that are under financial duress.
COLLINS: You mentioned what Speaker Johnson has said about how long this could go on. We have heard from Senator Schumer as well, who said the other day that, as long as this shutdown continues, he said -- quote -- "Every day gets better for us."
Do you think every day, though, gets better for someone like Erik?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: No, I mean, it's -- at the end of the day, this needs to be as short as possible. We do not want the government to be shut down. We don't. This is not something that is good for any American.
It's not good for the million federal workers that are out there right now. It's not good for the Americans that rely on federal services. It's not good for people who are traveling and can't get through an airport because TSA workers are not being paid. So we have to make sure that this is as swift and as short as possible.
COLLINS: Well, and speaking of airports and what air traffic controllers are having to go through, not getting paid, I mean, he's a father of four, so I can't even imagine how that feels.
And, Senator Sanders, on that front, in a CNN story the other day, there was a senior Democratic aide who told CNN last week that Democrats won't back down on their demands here short of -- quote -- "planes falling out of the sky."
SANDERS: All right, what can I tell you? That's obviously unacceptable.
Look, what we are dealing with is an unprecedented moment in American history, all right? So it's not only a debate about whether or not we can save health care for tens and tens of millions of Americans. It's also a broader issue.
And that issue is whether or not we will accept the reality that a handful of very, very wealthy people are now making out like bandits while 60 percent of our people are living paycheck to paycheck. So I think what we are saying is that now is the time, not just on health care, but all across, all across the spectrum.
People can't afford groceries. The housing crisis is enormous, people paying 40, 50 percent of their limited incomes for housing. And all the while, while working-class families are struggling to put food on the table, Trump gives his billionaire friends huge tax breaks, and they are getting richer and richer.
So what all of this is about is, do the American people come together and demand that we have a government that represents all of us or just wealthy campaign contributors? That is essentially what this whole fight is about. And, right now, health care is in the middle of it, but there are a lot of other issues.
I worry very much -- and Alexandria and I were on the road talking about this issue -- that we are increasingly becoming an oligarchic form of society, where a very small number of people not only control our economy, but through their campaign contributions have huge influence over both political parties.
And if there was ever a time in American history when we have got to stand up and fight for working families, fight to prevent authoritarianism taking place in this country, this is the moment.
COLLINS: But you are saying it is bigger than just about health care.
SANDERS: Health care is huge. When 50,000 people a year may die because of Trump's cuts, that in itself is huge.
But the issue is even more than that. It is, do you have a government that represents you and you, or a government that represents billionaires who want more and more tax breaks and more and more favors from the government? That is really what this struggle is about.
COLLINS: Senator Sanders, our next question is for you. Nicole Plewicka is here with us tonight.
Thank you so much.
She is a Democrat and a student at George Washington University from Sunnyvale, California.
What is your question?
NICOLE PLEWICKA, COLLEGE STUDENT: Hello.
Republicans have been appealing to audiences, especially young people like myself, online using social media. Why does Republican messaging on social media seem so much more effective than Democratic messaging? And what can we do about it?
SANDERS: Well, that is a great question.
I think the Republicans are effective. They have learned a lot about social media. And, by the way, it doesn't hurt that their friends own all of the major social media platforms. Bezos owns Twitter, or X. Zuckerberg owns Meta, Facebook and Instagram. Mr. Ellison is going to own you pretty soon. I think he's going to take over CNN, not to mention CBS.
So these guys have -- they can use algorithms to help them. So -- but to answer your question, look, it gets back to something that I have been talking about, Alexandria, others have been talking about. What does the Democratic Party stand for?
And I think messaging becomes easy when you're prepared to stand up and fight the right fights. And what is the right fight? At a time when the top 1 percent owns more wealth than the bottom 93 percent and the rich are getting richer, while working families are struggling, you tell me what the issue is.
And the issue is whether you stand with the working class of this country or with wealthy campaign contributors. And we're seeing more and more Democrats around the country, by the way, beginning to understand that.
COLLINS: But to her question about how you're reaching out to people, the two of you did a video recently that got millions of views explaining the government shutdown, talking about why you think this fight is worth it.
Democratic leaders did one, a livestream that only got tens -- a couple tens of thousands of views, much less than both of you all's. Do Democratic leaders need to up their game in how they're reaching people?
SANDERS: This is the master of social media.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: I will let her answer that.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I think, to Bernie's point, we're successful in these mediums when we're clear about what we believe. And whether in the great diversity of our country, in the very different perspectives that we may have, I know very concretely what I believe. Bernie knows very concretely what he believes, that health care is a human right, and that the minimum wage should be a living wage in this country, that public colleges and universities should be tuition-free, that no person in this country, in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, should be too poor to live.
And in -- and it is clear to communicate that as an individual.
Now, to the question earlier as well, when they talk about Republicans and their success online, they have been successful because they have also been very clear, especially digitally, about what they believe, that women are inferior that do not -- and they do not deserve equal rights, that they believe that LGBTQ Americans are subhuman, that they believe and are circulating disgusting racial and white supremacist messaging that they are able to get away with digitally and online.
And they are able to radicalize and target and exploit a generation of young boys, in particular, away from healthy masculinity and into an insecure masculinity that requires the domination of others who are poorer, browner, darker, or a different gender than them.
And that is why they are resonating online, because they are appealing to the most basest and worst parts of human nature to divide us. And why to divide us? So that the same people who own those platforms, people like Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Mark Zuckerberg, that these people can continue to get away with highway robbery in tax cuts, and in order to fleece all of our pockets, cut our health care, keep our wages low, so they can -- so that we remain fighting amongst ourselves while they make themselves richer.
And so, in order for us to fight back against that, we must be clear about what we believe, have strong beliefs, and also be completely unwilling to bow to that kind of division and stand in solidarity with one another, especially when it is someone whose culture is different from ours or whose background we may not entirely understand, but that we honor, love and see as our fellow Americans.
COLLINS: Representative Ocasio-Cortez, Senator Sanders, we have a lot more questions for both of you coming up.
We're going to take a short break and be right back with our CNN town hall.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: And we are back with Senator Bernie Sanders and Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez here tonight for our CNN town hall.
Representative, this next question is for you. And it comes from Ashley Vazquez, who is from Washington, D.C., and is an attorney with the Department of Housing and Urban Development who is currently furloughed. I should note that Ashley and four of her colleagues have filed a lawsuit alleging that HUD retaliated against them for helping others exercise their rights under the Fair Housing Act.
Ashley, what's your question tonight?
ASHLEY VAZQUEZ, ATTORNEY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT: Thank you. Just to reiterate, I am speaking on my personal capacity, not representing the government. And I'm here with some of my colleagues who have been fired for speaking up and speaking out.
So my question is about retaliation. Many federal -- career federal employees have been afraid to speak up. They have been afraid to push back on illegal orders. And some have even felt the need to comply in advance, to prove their loyalty and protect their jobs.
What would you say to those career federal employees? And is there anything at all that can be done to stop the retaliation and overcome this culture of fear?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, thank you. Thank you for your question.
And I think even all of us heard at the top of the show tonight that many of the federal workers here are not having -- that CNN is not disclosing the party affiliation of the federal workers that are here tonight.
And that's for a reason, precisely because of the question that you're asking, because there is a fear over political retaliation by this administration and a singling out and isolating of career federal workers based on party affiliation just in their participation in public civic discourse.
And this is from a Republican Party that claims to believe in free speech, which we know from their actions in the last couple of months have actually been doing nothing but the opposite. No one should be afraid of retaliation in their workplace. It's just unacceptable. And it's not -- we're not just talking about the Department of Housing and Urban Development.
We're seeing this as well at the FDA, the CDC, the NIH, where people's lives are literally on the line. People are being fired, career -- we're not talking about political appointees. We're talking about career civil servants, people who have been scientists for 20 years developing next -- the next generation of chemotherapy treatments, people -- the absolute public servants who, by the way, forgo very often lucrative careers in the private sector because they believe in the values of public service.
That is who this administration is targeting. Over what? What we saw, that this administration was directing everyday federal workers to put in their e-mail signatures partisan, partisan messaging that is likely in violation of the Hatch Act.
And so this intimidation that people are feeling is not just about expressing themselves. They feel that this administration is trying to pressure them into breaking the law, or else they will lose their job.
COLLINS: Well, and to follow up with you on that, in terms of the federal layoffs that the White House has been warning more will come if the government stays shut down, and they're saying Democrats will take the blame for that, they also say that they're pulling funding for a lot of projects.
The president described them as Democrat-oriented projects. One of that is they're withholding about $18 billion in funding for two infrastructure projects in your state. How do you and can you fight back against that?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Oh, absolutely. I mean, once again, this administration is making a foolish mistake by saying that they think that investments in housing and in energy are so-called Democrat priorities, cutting the EPA as a Democrat priority.
You know what this country looked like before the EPA? Rivers in rural areas were on fire because of corporations poisoning the people who lived in those areas, poor, middle-class communities getting poisoned and dumped on by corporations like Deloitte and 3M, pouring chemicals into these places.
And they want to call it a Democratic priority. And that's why they want to eliminate the FDA.
Well, you know what? You're damn well right that it's a Democratic priority to keep people from getting poisoned, from identifying dangerous chemicals that are being dumped and causing cancer in people without their knowledge.
You're damn right that it's a Democratic priority to bring down the cost of housing and mortgages and rent.
And you're damn right that it's a Democratic priority to raise the minimum wage in this country, to allow people to get a fair shot at the American Dream.
If they want to say that that's a Democratic priority, they're right, and they are targeting all of us with this. And so, I do think it's important for us to remember that and that these priorities are actually not partisan at all.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: And, Senator Sanders, on this front, when we look at funding that Congress has already approved, one thing Democrats want to try to do here is to limit the White House's and the president's ability to rescind funding that's been approved by Congress. As you're negotiating a deal, or if we try to get closer to one, is that something that's a deal breaker for you?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Absolutely. You know, we are beginning -- one of the things that frightens me, Kaitlan, is we begin to accept as normal the unconstitutional, illegal and outrageous actions on the part of the White House.
Can you imagine anybody ever thinking that it would be acceptable for somebody to say, "Oh, people in New York and California and Vermont, they didn't vote for me, I'm not going to put federal funds into those states"? "You didn't vote for me."
We, right now, have a president who is targeting the attorney general of New York state, who was targeting a United States senator because they did their jobs. Former head of the FBI.
What he is trying to do and what ICE raids and knocking down doors are about, is to make all of you afraid.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: That's right.
SANDERS: You're a federal employee, don't speak up. You're a government official, don't speak up. You're in a law firm that somehow had clients taking on Trump, don't speak up because they're going to punish you.
You are on CNN. We're going to sue you if you ask the wrong questions.
My friends, what this is about is a movement toward authoritarianism --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: -- intimidating us all, making us afraid.
And you stop and you think, what is this country about? What makes us the great country that people all over the world have always envied, looked to? It's the word "freedom". It's the right to dissent.
You disagree with me? That's fine. We have free elections. You want to beat me in an election? Go for it.
You're a newspaper writer. Write what you want. It's not having a president trying to intimidate you, sue you, cut your funding because you disagree with him.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: And that is the issue that we have got to also address, not just health care, not just housing. It's whether or not we stand up for the freedoms that millions of Americans fought and died to defend.
COLLINS: Are you -- either of you going to demand that they release the funding for those two infrastructure projects --
SANDERS: Absolutely, of course.
COLLINS: -- in order to reopen the government?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Of course -- well, you know, here's what we have to -- not only should this infrastructure funding be released, but in New York, which this administration is targeting in some of these infrastructure cancellations, some of the projects that they have canceled have been large-scale wind energy projects. And again, they think this is a Democratic priority, right, because it's -- because it's wind energy.
But this is energy, period. In New York state, Con Ed bills, that's our energy utility, Con Ed bills are set to go up -- go up almost another $100 next year because of those cancellations. That's affecting -- and it's jacking up the prices in Mike Lawler's district, in Nicole Malliotakis' district, in Republican districts across the state.
It is affecting -- and they are jacking up the price -- the prices on MAGA voters, too. They -- it is killing all of us.
COLLINS: Yeah.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And so, while they think that sabotaging energy projects in this country, which, by the way, oil and gas, much more volatile, that goes up and down all the time, that they think sabotaging these projects are somehow owning the Libs. No.
COLLINS: Well, and I should note that Mike Lawler has told us he's actually trying to get the administration to reverse that, that holding on that funding.
Senator Sanders, on the shutdown --
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: If I might --
COLLINS: But can I ask you because I've got a housing question for you coming up.
SANDERS: I'm happy to answer that. But let me also just add on to what Alexandria said, give you an example of cutting, quote/unquote, "Democratic programs".
I managed to get a $7 billion provision in the Inflation Reduction Act. Do you know what it does? It will help low income and working- class people install solar panels on their rooftops.
If you have solar on your rooftop, you know what? Your electric bill will go down 70, 80, 90 percent. We're going to create all kinds of jobs doing that, building the solar, installing the solar.
They were suing them, but they cut that program, a Democratic program, significantly reduce electric costs for working class people in America. That is a mentality -- and by the way, it's part of a mentality of Trump, which thinks that climate change is a hoax.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Hoax.
COLLINS: Well, they've warned that more cuts could come the longer the shutdown goes on.
Senator, Bobbie Harms is joining us. She's a bartender from Horn Lake, Mississippi. She is a Democrat. She submitted her question via video.
SANDERS: A Democrat from Mississippi.
COLLINS: Indeed.
SANDERS: All right, here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBIE HARMS, BARTENDER: My American Dream has turned into a nightmare. My family was only days away from closing on a USDA loan for our dream home. Then came news of the shutdown.
And now we face uncertainty. Our lease is up and now we have to move. The shutdown is costing us our chance to live our dream.
What are you doing to end this stalemate and help restore faith in our elected officials, the people I helped to choose to guard my American Dream?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: We're going to do everything that we can to bring an end to this terrible shutdown, which is hurting you and which is hurting a million federal employees and millions of people who use federal services.
But also, we have got to be cognizant that if Trump wins this fight, our health care system could well collapse, and tens of thousands of people could die every single year.
COLLINS: Do you think Trump could win this fight?
SANDERS: No. We're going to win it.
But it's not -- I don't want to look at it like a political fight. We're going to win it because the American people are on our side.
If you are or you're a Republican congresswoman, you're going to go back to your district and people are going to say to you, "Why are you doubling my insurance premiums? Why did you throw me off of health care?" That's a fight that Republicans are not going to win.
COLLINS: Well, and to Bobbie's question, Representative, earlier, you said that House Speaker Mike Johnson said he wants this shutdown to be one of the longest in history. I believe he said it could be one of the longest in history. He was saying that more of a warning about how long it could go on. I don't think it was a threat.
But I do think people want to know how long they should brace for this to potentially go on for.
Do you think by Thanksgiving, the government could still be shut down?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I mean, I would certainly hope not. I would certainly hope not.
I -- my hope is that we're able to resolve this as quickly as possible.
I'm ready to negotiate. Bernie's ready to negotiate. I mean, we are all open and ready to do this.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Is anyone actually negotiating right now?
SANDERS: No, but let's --
COLLINS: Because we hear from Republicans --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well --
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: Let me reiterate one point.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, he --
SANDERS: Republicans aren't in town.
COLLINS: House Republicans.
SANDERS: How do you negotiate with people who refuse even to show up to do their job? They're on vacation for, what, a month ago?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes, yes, House Republicans have been on vacation for over a month.
COLLINS: But the Republican senators are here. And House Republican -- House Speaker Mike Johnson, we've had him on. He said, "We've done our job. We passed the clean C.R. in the House. It's now up to the Senate to make these negotiations."
OCASIO-CORTEZ: They need to pick up a phone, Kaitlan. It's -- they need to pick up a phone.
They're saying that they're doing all this work. They are twiddling their thumbs and talking to each other. They -- it is actually an unconscionable abdication and refusal to work.
They refuse -- I've never seen people who hate working so much in my life.
(LAUGHTER)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I mean, genuinely, they won't even pick up the phone. They won't -- if I were Mike Johnson, you should be in that office negotiating with Hakeem Jeffries every damn day until we reopen this government. And any day that you don't do that is a failure. It is a failure.
And until there is accountability for people who refuse to work, to work, then we're going to continue to be in this cycle. So, you know, in the Senate, the Senate majority leader is John Thune.
They should -- he should be negotiating with Chuck Schumer. President Trump should be having congressional leaders in the White House.
Do you see that every day? No, you don't because they're playing golf and they're going to Mar-a-Lago and the House -- and Republicans in the House have been on vacation for weeks now.
We are here in Washington, D.C. We are ready to work. We are ready to strike a deal.
We're not here to just be "my way or the highway" about everything. But what we're also not going to accept is the complete collapse of the American health care system, so that -- just because the Republican Party has decided to take a million federal workers hostage.
COLLINS: Can I ask you on that? Because you before have said a government hostage -- a government shutdown is like hostage-taking when it comes to paychecks, because you came into office actually, during a government shutdown, the longest in U.S. history.
So, what would you say to Republicans who say you're doing the hostage-taking this time?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Once again, pick up the phone. They need to pick up the phone.
And it's not hostage-taking if they refuse to clock in, right? We're all clocked in. We're all clocked in to do the job. They're not even here. They're not even here. And so it's not hostage-taking, as much as the fact as they refuse to show up and do the job.
SANDERS: Once again, the war is in the Senate. They need 60 votes. They don't have 60 votes. They have got 53 or maybe 52.
That means you have to sit down and talk to the other side. It is not complicated. They are not doing that.
COLLINS: Yes, every -- each side is saying that no one's talking.
And speaking of what's happening in the Senate, Senator Sanders, this next question is for you. It's from Rohan Naval, who is joining us here tonight.
Thank you so much for being here.
He said he's a Republican and a student at American University and that you intern for the conservative group Americans for Tax Reform. What's your question?
ROHAN NAVAL, COLLEGE STUDENT: Yes, thank you for your time, Senator.
How do you think this shutdown reflects on Chuck Schumer's leadership?
SANDERS: Well, I think it reflects more on Mike Johnson's leadership and President Trump's leadership.
This is a leadership which said it's OK to give a -- well, how do you feel? You tell me. I think it's a good idea to give a trillion dollars of tax breaks to the richest people in the country and then make massive cuts to health care for working-class people?
NAVAL: I think Chuck Schumer has voted for continuing resolutions 13 times in the last four years, and he has the opportunity to vote for one again, but he's refusing to come to the table.
SANDERS: Well, I think, look, as I have said, there are 53 Republicans in the Senate, correct?
NAVAL: Yes.
SANDERS: They need 60. What does that mean? It means you have to talk to the other side. Mike Johnson is not talking. John Thune is not talking. President Trump is not talking. That is the problem.
COLLINS: Well, they say their position is, reopen the government and then we will talk.
SANDERS: But I...
COLLINS: Who changes their strategy first? Who's going to blink first, I think, is a question a lot of people have.
SANDERS: Well, I certainly hope -- it's not a -- this is not a game. And a lot of lives are at stake in terms of our federal employees who are hurt, in terms of tens of millions of people who are going to suffer from these health care proposals.
So I hope the Republicans do the right thing. Come to the damn table and talk.
COLLINS: Can I ask you, Representative Ocasio-Cortez, on that? Because we actually heard from House Speaker Mike Johnson today on Chuck Schumer. He said he's supporting the shutdown to prevent a primary challenge from his left wing. Do you think that's what's driving Senator Schumer here?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: No, absolutely not. That is -- it is so -- it's such an insane suggestion.
And, in fact, it speaks to how desperate they are. This claim has been -- Mike Johnson's been saying this. John Thune's been saying this. They are saying this because they are refusing to do their job. They're grasping for straws. They're trying to make this about political tabloids and political intrigue and horse races, exactly the kinds of things that people are sick of in this country.
We're sick of it. We're sick of talking about these horse races and we're sick of leaders who only want to spend their time talking about that, instead of talking about real issues that affect our lives, instead of talking about health care, instead of talking about wages, instead of talking about having air that's drinkable -- I mean, air that's breathable and water that's drinkable.
And it is, honestly, astonishing to me that the speaker of the House would waste his time on something so inane and silly, instead of actually worrying about his own constituents, who are suffering at the hands of his leadership.
COLLINS: But are you saying that Senator Schumer should not be worried about a primary challenge from you?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I mean, no, I don't think this is about anything...
SANDERS: Let me jump in on this one. Let me -- this is -- see, Kaitlan...
OCASIO-CORTEZ: This is what we're talking about.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: This is exactly what we're talking...
OCASIO-CORTEZ: This is what we're talking about.
SANDERS: You have a country that is falling apart. We have a house -- housing crisis, a health care crisis, an education crisis, massive income and wealth inequality, a corrupt campaign finance system.
And the media says, are you going to run? What are you going to run for?
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: Nobody cares.
(CROSSTALK)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Nobody cares.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: It's the House speaker and President Trump and the vice president saying it.
SANDERS: Right.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Pardon?
SANDERS: Well, of course, they're saying it to deflect attention away from the real issues.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Exactly.
SANDERS: And, here, we will tell you what the real issue is. Let's see if CNN talks about it.
We're living in the richest country in the history of the world, right? All right, you tell me why we're the only nation not to guarantee
health care to all people, the only nation not to guarantee paid family and medical leave, why we have a $7.25-an-hour minimum wage, why we have 800,000 people sleeping out on the street, why we have a president who denies the reality of climate change, why we have oligarchs on top who have more and more power every day.
Let's talk about that issue, not her own political future. She will decide that.
COLLINS: On that note, Senator Sanders, Representative Ocasio-Cortez, we have many more questions coming up.
We will be right back from our CNN town hall right after this.
(CHEERING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
COLLINS: And welcome back to our CNN town hall with Senator Bernie Sanders and Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
Senator, I'd like to ask you about some breaking news that happened today in what we had heard from the White House. The president confirmed that there are CIA actions happening in Venezuela. We have seen multiple strikes happening on what they allege are drug boats out in open waters.
Are you worried about this escalating further from here?
SANDERS: Well, I am worried again about the president acting in an unconstitutional way.
The Constitution is pretty clear. You want to go to war, you have got to go through Congress. You're going to need your authority from Congress. Think about what kind of world we live in that just governments are busy bombing and attacking other countries at will. So that concerns me very much.
So, yes, I am concerned about it.
COLLINS: And his argument is, he's saving lives because he's alleging that they're carrying drugs on the boat.
SANDERS: Good. Then come to the Congress and explain to us why you are doing that and, if it makes sense, you will get support.
COLLINS: OK, so you're not saying you're against it. You're just saying you would like to have them...
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: I am saying that the president is acting unilaterally, in violation of the Constitution. That's a pretty big deal. COLLINS: And, Representative Ocasio-Cortez, another question tonight
when it comes to how this shutdown is playing out here in Washington.
I want to bring in Jill Ireland, who is a Democrat who works in insurance. She's from Santa Barbara, California, and her question is appearing via video tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL IRELAND, INSURANCE EXECUTIVE: Hello.
My question is, do you think that taxpayers should be paying for the medical care of immigrants that are in the country illegally? Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, we already know -- and this is a common -- this is a common lie that Republicans have been repeating, that this shutdown is about Democrats trying to provide health care to the undocumented.
And we all know -- we already know that it is federal law and federal statute that undocumented people cannot be covered by the ACA. They cannot be covered by Medicaid. They cannot be covered by Medicare, period. That is the law of the land. There are plenty of federal laws on the books.
Now the vice president has been trafficking this other misconception, saying that the Emergency Medicaid program is doing -- is providing health care to undocumented people. That too is complete, just, I don't even know, whole cloth storytelling, we should say.
The truth of the matter is that we have a federal law as it should be, that any person who walks into a hospital in desperate need of medical attention receives that medical attention regardless of their insurance status and regardless of who they are.
And I don't know about you, but me, as a human being, I don't want to live in a world where, if a human being is struck by a car or is getting rushed into a hospital, that the people in the E.R. surgical room are asking for your insurance information or asking for documents before they save your life.
COLLINS: But can I ask you on this to follow up? Because you said that it is federal law that people, undocumented immigrants can't get Medicare, Medicaid, the Obamacare subsidies.
Do you believe that should be the law, though, or do you think undocumented immigrants should have access to federally run health care?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I believe personally that health care is a human right. I believe that every person should be able to go to the doctor.
But I believe that, right now, federal law is the federal law and that absolutely that U.S. citizens and people who pay into our programs deserve to be covered by these programs. And I mean, once again, I do believe that the federal laws that we have on the books are appropriate and are the right ones to do.
COLLINS: But if you could choose, do you believe that that should be changed?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Pardon?
COLLINS: If you could choose, do you believe that the federal law should be changed on that?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I don't -- I believe in a single-payer health care system where, if you go in and you need a doctor, you can get the medical attention that you need.
SANDERS: Kaitlan, let me just make a point here.
You know what demagogues like Trump always do? Instead of addressing the real crises facing our country -- why are we the only major country not to guarantee health care, while spending twice as much per person -- we're spending $14,500? It's a good debate, right? Let's have that debate. You hearing Trump talking about that? No.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: No.
SANDERS: Why are we having a housing crisis, when millions of people are spending 40, 50 percent of their limited -- let's discuss that.
Do you know what demagogues do, guys? What they do is, they find a powerless minority. In Europe during the '30s, it was the Jews. Then it's the gypsies. In America, it's historically been black people. It's been gay people. It's been Latino people. You name your pick.
You got a powerless minority, let's blame them for everything.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: It's true.
SANDERS: But you know what they don't blame? Somehow or another, they don't blame the billionaires who run the country, because those guys finance their campaigns.
They're trying to divide us up. And what we have got to do is understand, we are the majority. Most Americans think health care is a right. Most Americans think we should have a minimum wage which is a living wage. Most Americans don't believe we should give tax breaks to billionaires and cut back on education.
Let's bring our people together, not fall for the demagoguery of Trump and his friends.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And, by the way, this is not the first time that Republicans and the administration does things like this.
We have something on the books known as the Hyde Amendment, which prevents women in this country from being able to access reproductive health care services and abortion care services if they are on Medicaid or if they have any federally subsidized health care.
And so targeting minorities, targeting vulnerable populations, making health care controversial in this country is exactly how they keep us fighting and distracted. These policy debates are more than substantive, merited. We can have these conversations, as we have.
But let's not trick ourselves into thinking that they somehow are fighting for every American to have health care, to improving health care, to expanding health care, when what they're far more interested in doing is protecting the insurance companies' profit margins that are forcing you to pay more money for less care.
COLLINS: Can I ask on that? Because Speaker Johnson said something to the effect the other day that Republicans are actually the party that wants to fix health care by addressing issues with it, as he says they did in the One Big Beautiful Bill. What would you say to that?
SANDERS: Excuse me. Did he really say that?
COLLINS: Yes, he did.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: They're trying to fix health care by throwing 15 million people off of it and doubling premiums?
COLLINS: He says they're being more serious about it than Democrats.
SANDERS: Is that how they fix health care? That's a kind of strange way to fix health care.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: Look, here's the point.
United States, richest country on Earth, only country not to guarantee health care to all people. You go up to Canada, is their system perfect? No. You have a serious operation, you're in the hospital for a month. You know what your bill is when you get out? Zero.
They spend half as much as we do per capita. So you have got a health care system which is a disaster, except for one thing. Here's the good news. Drug companies last year charging us the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs made over $100 billion in profit. Insurance companies make tens of millions of dollars. They pay their CEOs $20 million, $30 million a year.
The function of the American health care system -- and Mr. Johnson is not going to address it. The function of this system is to guarantee huge profits for the drug companies and the insurance companies, and they could care less about the needs of ordinary people.
COLLINS: Well, and I know you and I have discussed before there are areas, with the president lowering drug prices, where you agree with some of the steps that they're taking or at least trying to take. But, on this front, I want to get back to the questions, because we
have another one for you, Representative. This is from Nevin Skalko, who is here tonight from Hainesville, Illinois, who works in medical sales. He says he voted Republican for the first time in 2024.
Thank you for being here. What's your question?
NEVIN SKALKO, WORKS IN MEDICAL SALES: One reason Americans are losing faith in government is that neither side seems willing to acknowledge when the other gets something right.
It feels like any success from the opposing party must automatically be discredited. Don't Democrats risk alienating voters by refusing to give credit, even to Trump, when a policy or action genuinely benefits the country? Isn't part of restoring trust in leadership being honest enough to say, yes, that worked?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes, well, I think there's -- we're more than willing to be able to come together in the things that are most important to us. I work regularly with Republicans in the House, and I applaud when we're able to pursue work together.
I will give you a great -- I will give you one example. Towards the end of last year, Republicans and Democrats both championed something known as PBM reform, pharmacy benefit manager reform. This is a middleman in our prescription drugs that the insurers use and lots of other folks use to jack up the price of your prescriptions.
And we -- Republicans have been going after PBM reform. In fact, I spoke with a chairman of one of the committees, and he said: "I want to go AOC on PBMs."
(LAUGHTER)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: There is possibility for us to work with one another. President Trump, in fact, had endorsed it at the end of December.
And I am fully in support of this effort to make sure that we reform PBMs. Now, politics did get in the way. This was at the end of last year, Elon Musk sent a tweet. We had it ready to go, and this was going to change the lives of millions of people and small businesses across the United States, small neighborhood pharmacists.
And what we saw was that Elon Musk sent a tweet. Donald Trump agreed with it. House Republicans agreed with it. Senate Republicans agreed with it. I was more than happy to champion this, because it's the right thing to do. And that's what should come first.
Now, a tweet made it go all the way -- kind of canned the whole thing. But should President Trump revive this, should House Republicans revive this, I would be more than happy, effusive, as I have been in the past, about the ability to call a win a win, because it's not about whether it's a win for Republicans or a win for Democrats. It's about whether it's a win for people.
COLLINS: Can I ask you on that front? I don't think I have seen you say anything publicly -- maybe I'm wrong -- about the cease-fire in Gaza.
Do you believe President Trump deserves credit for that?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, you know, I find these -- there have been several ceasefire announcements and developments that have happened over the past two years.
I think that the release of the hostages is a tremendous accomplishment. And it is providing so much healing to so many people, Israelis and Palestinians. And it is a profound and important moment in this conflict.
I also think that as President Trump was on the plane back to the United States, there's already indications and questions about whether this cease will hold. And I pray that it does for, for everyone's benefit. I pray that it does.
But I do believe we need to see if it holds. I don't believe that there's been a history of fidelity to these agreements. And so, I think we have to ensure that -- that we will see the terms held to.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: But do you give him credit -- do you give him credit, though, for getting to this point where it did get those 20 hostages back home with their families?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: In this particular development? Yes. But we also know that President Trump was an obstacle to peace previously as well.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): I get -- to be honest with you, I get a little bit annoyed when everyone's talking about credit.
Let's take a --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: That's right.
SANDERS: -- hard look at what's going on there.
COLLINS: Why do you get annoyed by that?
SANDERS: I'll tell you why.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: Gaza has a population of 2.2 million people. In the last two years, 160,000 people have been wounded, mostly women, children and the elderly. Sixty-five thousand people have been killed -- women, children and the elderly predominantly. That is 10 percent, 10 percent of the population of Gaza.
In America, you know what that would mean? Thirty-three million people dead or wounded, a disaster -- a genocide, if you like.
The entire infrastructure of Gaza -- hospitals, schools, water systems, wastewater plants -- have been destroyed. Under Trump supporting -- and by the way, what bothers me as an
American --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: -- we have given under Biden and under Trump, $22 billion to Netanyahu's extremist government, which for the last month or two have been starving children. That has been their policy.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: That's right.
SANDERS: So, Kaitlan, when you talk about, are we overjoyed that the hostages are back, the prisoners are released, that finally there is peace, hopefully, hopefully, it lasts? Yes, absolutely.
But I think not as -- this is not a time for credit. This is a time to think about American policy.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: Are we happy that we have given tens of billions of dollars to destroy the Palestinian people?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And --
SANDERS: Israel had a right to defend itself. They were attacked by a terrorist group. They did not have a right to go to an all-out war against women and children in Gaza.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And moreover, on this issue as well, is that we may have an announcement around a ceasefire. But Gaza has been flattened, tens of thousands of people are dead, universities gone, hospitals eliminated with American made bombs, with our tax dollars, while you and me and our families can't even afford to put food on the table.
And so, I welcome the cessation of these bombs dropping in Gaza. But I don't -- it -- the devastation of everything that we have endured up until this point is not something that I think we should celebrate.
The United States played a role in all of this destruction to begin with, by enabling Benjamin Netanyahu in dropping all of these bombs, by refusing to enforce our own American laws and the Leahy laws on the books, which says that we cannot be transferring weapons to forces that are engaged in gross human rights violations. And we look the other way because we deem them an ally.
COLLINS: And you're saying that's not something that you're -- a criticism that you're just applying to President Trump in terms of --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: No, President Biden did it.
COLLINS: President Biden --
(CROSSTALK)
OCASIO-CORTEZ: President Biden did it. And I have -- and I have absolutely said that to him in in person as well. Bernie and I --
SANDERS: We spent a long time with President Biden trying to make the case.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Given that -- we've -- I've given President Biden hell about this.
And President Trump is absolutely been part of this problem as well. In fact, he was bragging publicly about Benjamin Netanyahu ringing him up and asking for all these kinds of bombs that he doesn't even know the United States has and him signing off on it.
COLLINS: Can I ask you just to finish on this, Senator Sanders, though? But President Trump might look at this and say, "Well, we had an agreement.
It was my negotiators who got Hamas to the table and Israel to the table, and had Egypt and the Qataris helped broker this." And he says, "Well, at least there's no fighting now", because they wanted to bring this war to end.
SANDERS: Look -- again, I think every sane person, and certainly the people in Gaza and Israel are delighted with the ceasefire. We hope it holds.
The United States essentially funded this war. If I am funding you, all I got to do is say, "Hey, Benjamin, guess what? You end this war right now. No more money, no more bombs, no more other military support."
In other words, the United States has been from day one, under Biden, under Trump, in the driver's seat.
COLLINS: We've got more questions from our audience here tonight, Representative. This one's for you, actually. And thank you so much for being here.
This is Justin Hogue, who is a student at Howard University and also a member of the College Democrats from Burlington Township, New Jersey.
Thank you for being here.
What's your question for the representative?
JUSTIN HOGUE, STUDENT: Thank you.
Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez, you endorsed Zohran Mamdani in New York City mayoral race. But several prominent Democrats, including Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, have not yet endorsed him.
What do you believe this says about the current divide between the progressive and establishment wings of the Democratic Party? And what effect do you think this has on party unity?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh. Well, I mean, I have stated this for quite some time which is that Democrats have primaries for a reason. We may have our differences amongst one another within the party -- some may be more conservative, some may be more liberal or any other number of differences. That's what we have primaries for.
I believe in endorsing the nominee of the party after a primary is -- has resolved itself. And the reason I say that is because I worry that when we don't follow that principle, in fact, it is most important to follow that principle when the winner of the primary is not someone we agree with.
You know, I endorsed Bernie in 2020 when he ran against President Biden. President Biden won that nomination and we all had to come together and do the work of supporting our party's nominee in order to make sure that we win.
And so, I do worry about the example it sets when our leaders do not support the party nominee, because in the future, we will need -- we will need folks to rally behind the presidential nominee. And if that nominee is more moderate, or if that nominee is more progressive, and we're setting the precedent of not endorsing the nominee unless we agree with them, I worry about what example that that sets.
And so, I have made myself very clear about that. But my hope is that it's never too late to do the right thing. And election day is just a month away, just three weeks away. And so --
COLLINS: So, it sounds like you're calling on Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer to endorse Zohran Mamdani.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I -- I think -- I believe that -- I do believe in endorsing the nominee, and I think it's the right thing to do.
COLLINS: Senator Sanders, do you agree?
SANDERS: Let me just add to that. She's much nicer than I.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: Nicer to people.
Look, take a look. You got a Democratic Party. There's no great secret that it's kind of in the doldrums right now. Everybody acknowledges that.
You got a candidate in New York City, Zohran Mamdani. And he's running an extraordinary campaign. He has something like 80,000 volunteers knocking on doors.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Uh-huh.
SANDERS: He is bringing people out who never voted. He is bringing Blacks and Whites and Latinos and Asians, everybody together around a really strong agenda, talking about affordability in New York.
What is not to like?
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: This should be the kind of candidate that Democrats want in every state in the country. Strong grassroots campaigns, a willingness to take on the oligarchs and the big money interests, stand up for working class people.
So really, that's a great question. But it comes -- it's very deep because it talks about the future of the Democratic Party.
COLLINS: But are you speaking directly to Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer when you deliver that message?
SANDERS: Sure, I am.
Hakeem, you watching this? I don't know.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: But look, it is two things. Of course, Alexandria is right. He's the Democratic nominee. How do you not support the Democratic nominee?
But more importantly --
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Who else are we going to support?
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: He's a great candidate. This should be the model. What we want -- you know, we got political problems in our country. People are giving up on the political process.
He's getting people excited, getting them involved. I would like to see that take place in 50 states in this country.
COLLINS: On that front, we have another question here, Vikram Sardana is a software engineer from Alexandria, Virginia.
And you have volunteered for Democratic campaigns. What's your question for Senator Sanders?
VIKRAM SARDANA, SOFTWARE ENGINEER: Hi. On the issue of health care, a lot of the clinics and hospitals that are negatively affected the most under the One Big, Beautiful Bill are located in rural, mostly Republican areas. A lot of the increases in Affordable Care Act premiums that Democrats are fighting to prevent are concentrated in more rural Republican areas.
If the Republicans are so insistent on sticking it to their own voters on this issue, why don't the Democrats just let them?
SANDERS: I think Alexandria touched on this before. And that is, we are -- one of the things -- and this really annoys me about Trump -- he is dividing this country.
Why would I not? When we hit the road, we were in Idaho, right? It's the most conservative state in America, I think. We had many thousands of people coming out. We are Americans. What, you think I would feel OK if somebody in a Republican state died because they couldn't get health care? I would hope not. I hope nobody feels that way.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And I think it also speaks to a big difference between someone like Trump and someone like me or someone like Bernie, which is that Trump believes that, if you don't vote for him, he doesn't have to be your leader, that, if you didn't vote for him, that you don't deserve good things to happen to you.
I don't care if someone voted for me or not. I don't care if someone is a Republican or an independent or a Democrat. I don't care if someone likes me or not. That will never change the fact that I'm going to fight for them to have health care. I want MAGA to have health care. I want MAGA to be paid a living wage.
But he doesn't want people who are Democrats or he doesn't want people based on their political affiliation to benefit. And that is the difference between a strongman and an authoritarian and a leader of a democracy.
COLLINS: Can I just ask you quickly, though?
The president -- typically, the military wouldn't get paid during a government shutdown. And a program that helps low-income women, moms and babies, the president has ensured that those two get funded during this government shutdown. Do you support that?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Of course. Of course. Yes, absolutely. And House Democrats also introduced legislation to make sure that they are paid as well.
COLLINS: Representative Ocasio-Cortez, Senator Sanders, a few more questions for you. Stick with us.
We're going to be right back after a quick break.
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COLLINS: And we are back with Senator Bernie Sanders and Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
We have a final question from our audience tonight.
Representative, I will start with you. We have got Christopher Lindsey here, who's a Republican from Pingree Grove, Illinois, who works for United Airlines.
Go ahead with your question.
CHRISTOPHER LINDSEY, AIRPORT RAMP AGENT: Good evening, Senator Sanders, Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez. It's a privilege and an honor to be speaking to you tonight in beautiful Washington, D.C. My question to the both of you is, what can Congress do to stop pointing a finger at each other, work together, and listen to the words of Abraham Lincoln, a house divided cannot stand?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I mean, I can't thank you enough for invoking that quote in this moment, because, I think, when we zoom out and look at the degree of political polarization that we're all experiencing, I don't think any one of us likes it.
I don't think any one of us enjoys that we're at a point where friends feel like their relationships are in tension, that family feels like they're a relationship in tension, that it feels like you can't say some of the most basic things without it turning into a fight. It's not good for our country.
And I think we have to lead by example. I think it's important for us to lead with what we think can work and the areas that we are able to find common ground and to uplift that common ground. I gave some examples earlier today.
Bernie has also a tremendous bipartisan record, believe it or not, in the House and in the Senate. But that's often not what we hear about. Congress passes bills actually every day, believe it or not, that are bipartisan in nature. And we never hear about the actual common ground that we have and the successes that we have in that.
And I actually do believe that, if we charge forward with that a little bit more -- last year, I spent a lot of work doing -- preventing sexually exploited material generated by A.I. and protecting women and children. And I was happy to have enjoyed bipartisan support on that.
But we often hear first about the things that divide us, and we rarely hear about the things that have actually united us. And so I do believe we should be leading by example and, when we have these moments of stark contrast, that we also are clear about the principles upon which our disagreements happen.
If I disagree with you -- if I, as a Democrat, disagree with you as a Republican, I'm not going to question your motive. I'm not going to question your allegiance to this country. I'm not going to question your intent and your care.
And I believe that when we devolve into that, that is when we are actually stoking division in our country, when we call those who disagree with us un-American.
That is what is un-American. And I could not advocate more for the fact of sticking to the facts about things, respecting and honoring the intentions and motives of our fellow Americans, and also trying to elevate and find the areas that we do have common ground and agreement.
SANDERS: I think Alexandria said it very well.
I mean, I would just add as an example, this Saturday, millions of people are going to come out on a No Kings day, maybe more people coming out than any time in American history. Speaker Johnson said this is a hate America rally because people are coming out expressing their concerns about massive cuts to health care and the movement toward authoritarianism.
It's not a hate America. It's a love America. But the point is, instead of attacking each other in that way, in my view, what we got to do is lay the issues out on the table. We got a health care crisis, do we not, friends? All right. We're the only country not to guarantee your health care at all.
How do we move to a health care system that guarantees health care to a human right? Make sense to you? All right. Seventy, 80 years ago in this country, if you went to a public college or university, you know what your tuition was? Zero. And yet you got all of this increased worker productivity, all of the technology.
People can't afford their kid -- afford to send their kids to college. They can't afford childcare. People are paying outrageous costs in housing. How do we build the millions of units of affordable low- income housing that we desperately need? How do we save the planet for our kids and transform our energy system away from fossil fuel?
Do you know that millions of senior citizens in this country are trying to get by on $15,000 a year or less? They helped build this country. They fought for our country. They're in nursing homes, which are horrible places right now because they're underfunded, understaffed.
We are the richest country in the history of the world. How do we provide a good quality life for our kids? Should we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major nation, highest rate of senior poverty?
Those are the issues. You disagree with me? Fine. You got a better idea than mine? Great. Let's go forward. Let's discuss those issues. Let's not attack each other personally that we're un-American, that we hate America. That's nonsense. That just divides us.
Let's come together. Let's discuss the real issues. Let us create the kind of extraordinary country that we know we can create.
COLLINS: On that note, Senator Sanders, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, thank you both for being here tonight.
Thank you to our audience and for your excellent questions. We really appreciate them tonight.
Thank you all for joining in.
"NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
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