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CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five, Trump Orders DOJ To Probe Epstein Ties Of Foes; Allies Told Trump He Is Getting Bad Advice On Epstein; Trump's Efforts To Stop Epstein Files Vote Failing; New York Times: Trump May Roll Back Tariffs To Lower Prices; U.K. Halts Intel Sharing With U.S. Over "Illegal" Strikes; Drumbeat Louder: United States Moves Ships, Venezuelan Forces On Alert; Losing My Religion: United States Religion Decline Among World's Largest. Aired 7-8a ET
Aired November 15, 2025 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:00:33]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Today, he knew about the girls, after Jeffrey Epstein's own words surface about Donald Trump, the president's threat against Republicans who vote to release the files is falling on deaf ears.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If this comes on the floor, I will vote for it.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I don't think this is going to go away.
ANNOUNCER: Plus, he has survived scandals, convictions and impeachments. But could groceries be what Trump pays the highest political price for?
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Gaslighting the people and trying to tell them that prices have come down is not helping.
ANNOUNCER: Also, America's special Ally has a special message for the Trump administration, your boat strikes are breaking the law.
And the nation is going the way of REM and losing its religion. Why people of faith are the lowest on record?
Here in studio, Miles Taylor, Angie Wong, Lance Trover, and Toure. It's the weekend, join the conversation at a TABLE FOR FIVE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. I am Kate Bolduan, in for Abby.
This morning, after a dramatic week involving Donald Trump and the Epstein scandal, his base may be realizing that the president is actually the boy who likes to cry wolf.
Here is just the taste of everything that Donald Trump has called a hoax, and I'm probably not even getting it all in, a scam or con job or fake. Polls, the news, global warming, impeachments, the COVID response, the Mueller report, election results, jobs numbers.
Add the Epstein files to this list, even though that -- even though he and his allies made a hole to do during the campaign out of them and getting them to be released.
And because of that, his effort to block the files from becoming public is failing. Republicans are bracing for mass defections and vote to release them, in part, because e-mails surfaced showing Jeffrey Epstein saying that Donald Trump knew about the girls spent hours at his home with one of the victims, and Epstein also suggesting that he has leverage over Trump.
So, for MAGA's base, is this the time when the wolf actually shows up. Here with me now, the team. Let's go.
So, why investigate? The biggest thing that has happened is Donald Trump's social media at the end of the week saying that, in light of all of this, even though I could have done this and instructed this a long time ago, even though the file -- and we said it was case closed, he is now saying that he's asking Pam Bondi and the Department of Justice, "together with our great patriots at the FBI, to investigate Jeffrey Epstein's involvement and relationship with Bill Clinton, Larry Summers, Reid Hoffman, JPMorgan Chase and many other people and institutions to determine what was going on with them and him."
Why investigate now, not just release files?
MILES TAYLOR, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, I think it's pretty obvious.
TOURE, PODCAST HOST, "WHY DID THEY BREAK-UP?": If you do the files.
TAYLOR: I mean, look, how can anyone, even people who are supporters of the president, know what's going on here. The president knows he is in the Epstein files. He sits on the Epstein files. In July, the justice department and the FBI say nothing to see here. The case is closed.
Donald Trump, more leaks about being in the Epstein files has to create a distraction. All of a sudden, the case is back open. Even though the FBI and DOJ said the case was closed, what new evidence do they have? I don't know. Apparently, it's because the President just wants to put the attention on someone else. That's so obvious what is happening here. Anyone knows it.
And, by the way, the littlest detail to me was the biggest thing about all of this.
BOLDUAN: What?
TAYLOR: Is this week, Kate, they were trying to strong arm Republicans into pushing this discharge petition out of the house. You know where they did that? The White House Situation Room.
TOURE: Yes. TAYLOR: You know how many conference rooms there are in the White House? I've worked there. There is a lot of conference rooms. You only do things in the White House Situation Room, when? Wait for this. You don't want it to become public, and you are trying to hide it. They are trying to hide something. They are trying to hide the president's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein.
TOURE: Yes, it's been --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: But, let me -- important caveat, Donald Trump has not been accused of any -- of anything illegal. Donald Trump has not been accused of any wrongdoing, which reinforces the question of, why do you -- why do you think he is going down this path?
ANGIE WONG, REPUBLICAN EXECUTIVE COMMITTEEWOMAN, MIAMI: Why now? Well, because Democrats just had a major loss with the government shutdown, and we need to change the narrative. Right? We need to flip it back on to the Epstein files, really, guys. We are going to recycle something that's been dead for so long. No one cares about this stuff.
They care about, you know, real American voters, we care about affordability and other real things. Not about Epstein.
[07:05:03]
Yes, it's salacious, yes, there is sex and girls and powerful politicians, but quite honestly, I don't care about it. But now, we have to flip the narrative, because Democrats had a loss. I don't know. I think, this is (INAUDIBLE).
TOURE: This is kind of a bizarre position. You don't care that the president might be a pedophile? You don't care that the --
(CROSSTALK)
WONG: No, he is not a pedophile. No, no, no.
TOURE: You don't -- you don't -- you don't --
BOLDUAN: There is -- there is no evidence way (INAUDIBLE).
TOURE: No, there is no evidence of it, but that's what --
(CROSSTALK)
LANCE TROVER, FORMER SPOKESPERSON, DOUG BURGUM PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: OK. That is absolutely --
TOURE: No, it's not insane. That's what we've been talking about only that's what --
TROVER: OK, let me --
TOURE: That's what we -- (CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: I just -- there is no evidence of that. We are not going to -- we are not --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: No, but that's what the e-mails have been talking about. That's what we've been talking about all week. That's why he doesn't want to release the files. And to say that nobody cares. It's kind of absurd. If the president is a pedophile, we should know about it, and people would care about that.
(CROSSTALK)
WONG: No, the president is not a pedophile.
BOLDUAN: All right. No one is suggesting that President Trump is a pedophile. The nobody cares element of it is part of the issue, which is basically the entire Trump Cabinet had said that they wanted these files released.
WONG: Yes.
BOLDUAN: Was they were getting -- so, that is the problem that they have now. I mean, you've got -- you have the president saying that he wants to see an investigation now.
TROVER: This is like --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: He wants to see an investigation.
TROVER: -- family show. So that -- this is like a very an F-around and find out moment for the Democrats. They want to do things like what you were doing. Throw the word pedophile around. They wanted to leak documents this week that were redacted to try to embarrass the president.
Well, now the Democrats want to get to the bottom of this. Well, let's have a new investigation. Let's reopen. Who knows what might have been missed.
Let's see what Bill Clinton was doing on the plane with Jeffrey Epstein. Let's see what Larry Summers was doing. Why did JPMorgan Chase settle for $300 million with these victims?
I think these are all valid questions.
TAYLOR: But Lance, why the president say the case was closed?
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: It wasn't good enough. Hold on, let me just -- I let you talk.
TAYLOR: Tell me.
TROVER: It wasn't good enough that the House Oversight Committee was doing their investigation and releasing droves and droves of documents. No. Because you guys had a bad week on the government shutdown front. You wanted to start (INAUDIBLE) --
BOLDUAN: That's right.
TAYLOR: Hold it -- hold it. The fact is --
TROVER: -- we will now --
TAYLOR: But it's not about -- I'm not a Democrat.
What new evidence is there?
TROVER: Who? Look, we know --
TAYLOR: Who knows what new evidence is there?
TROVER: We don't know what was missed. I don't know. It's a good question.
BOLDUAN: So, I will say --
TAYLOR: (INAUDIBLE) new case, say the case was closed.
TROVER: You guys are throwing -- you guys are throwing terms like pedophile around, what we can go back and take a look and see who was the pedophile, and we'd paying it around the path.
(CROSSTALK)
TAYLOR: Jeffrey Epstein is a pedophile.
BOLDUAN: So, one of the interesting bits about it is Ro Khanna, one of the --
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: They been calling Trump, the pedophile.
BOLDUAN: Which he is -- he is not, but in case of that --
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: Correct.
BOLDUAN: It is not -- that is not the issue at hand.
Ro Khanna, who is one of the members of Congress, who has been -- who has led the charge on the discharge position.
He said late this week, like, Fine, that's great that actually the justice department wants to investigate. As part of, we want to have the files put out that -- they investigated files, they could have put this out. This does not need an act of Congress to have these files.
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: Then, why did the Democrats object when Representative Tim Burchett of Tennessee said, well, let's just do unanimous consent and get this out the door today. No, the Democrats objected. Why? Because they want to put Republicans onto a vote so they can try to use it in the next election. It is all political garbage from the president, who 100 percent correct.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: Yes. Could all of these -- could all of --
TROVER: That is what this is.
BOLDUAN: Could all of these things be true at once, that people actually want the investigative files out. That the White House doesn't want them. Donald Trump does not want them to be released. And both sides are using an opportunity Donald Trump and social media tweet late this week and Democrats, at the beginning of the week to their political advantage of when they actually put things out.
I mean, can all this thing be true ones?
TAYLOR: Sure. Yes.
BOLDUAN: But doesn't the end result still come down to? Why not just put the -- why not just put everything out?
TOURE: That would be great. Let's do that. Why won't the president do that?
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: I just -- like, I don't think --
TOURE: Why won't the FBI do that?
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: We have the House Oversight -- we have the House Oversight.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: A lot of people will say that they do think that Donald Trump did anything wrong. He may face embarrassment, but not like he's going to face more than that.
TROVER: The House Oversight Committee has released nearly 50,000 documents. The Epstein estate has released documents. The documents continue forthcoming. They are proceeding on a bipartisan basis in Congress. That's what shows you, the Democrats are using this as a (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK) TOURE: (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
TROVER: We are not suggesting that -- but that's not good enough.
TOURE: We'll give it late to late.
WONG: How much more they need?
TAYLOR: So, you think they should release the information about these Democrats. Right?
TROVER: I think if they -- if we could absolutely do a reinvestigation or take a look at what these guys --
(CROSSTALK)
TAYLOR: Because they released the information about Trump too.
TROVER: What information? We -- you guys have been leaking (INAUDIBLE) all week.
TAYLOR: The files -- the files the president said should be released.
TROVER: That's my whole point.
TAYLOR: What do you mean, you guys? I'm not here to show for the Democratic Party.
TROVER: But you are sound like you are.
TAYLOR: I think they should release them on Trump, I think, that should release on a Democrats, whatever they have.
TOURE: But this is -- we get this not -- but this is not -- this is not a D.R. issue, because polling shows both Republicans and Democrats want to see this out. So, to take this as like Well, let's look at Bill Clinton. Let's look Larry Summers. You are taking a Republican perspective. We, as a country want to know what happened. We should know what happened. It's not a left right issue. Why won't we just know what happened?
TROVER: I'm a lifelong conservative. Let it all out.
BOLDUAN: And just look at how when you --
TROVER: Let it all out.
BOLDUAN: And just look at how when you -- and just look at who all is going to be voting on this discharge petition. You're getting a lot of Republicans who want to know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can see your point --
BOLDUAN: You, John Kennedy, I can even play it. TROVER: Yes.
BOLDUAN: Let's play with Senator. Republican Senator John Kennedy said about how -- what this is going to look like when it comes to the Senate. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNEDY: I just don't think this issue is going to go away until that issue is, is addressed and answered to the American people satisfaction. And I may end up with a sombrero on my head for saying that, but that's the way I see it. I think he'll, he'll put it on the floor.
[07:10:01]
I think this is -- this issue is going to be resolved one way or the other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: He is talking about John Thune, the Republican leader in the Senate.
TAYLOR: Yes.
BOLDUAN: He thinks he's going to have to put his -- gets to the floor. Let's make big assumptions. It's going to pass through the House. It gets put on the floor, it's going to pass through the Senate. Do you think there is a chance that Donald Trump would veto this?
TOURE: Of course.
TAYLOR: I do. Yes.
WONG: I don't think so at all.
TOURE: Of course, he will.
WONG: Why would he veto? He wants this information out there.
TAYLOR: Why would he be -- he doesn't have to do any of this.
TOURE: He does not -- just no.
TAYLOR: He doesn't need of that --
TOURE: That is fantasy.
TAYLOR: He could do it right now.
TOURE: He not want this out.
TAYLOR: He could do it right now.
WONG: He was. TAYLOR: Why is he waiting for a vote of Congress here?
WONG: He just asking the DOJ --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: He actually -- he actually doesn't need to do anything. The justice department can release it on their own. (INAUDIBLE).
TAYLOR: What is he waiting for Congress to pass it. Why doesn't 00 he just tweeted new investigations into private American citizens? Why can't he just tweet?
BOLDUAN: Miles, just because you have a really unique perspective on the idea of being investigated -- being a target of Donald Trump's. Now, the -- if you like, fold in the Eric Swalwell element of this.
TAYLOR: Yes.
BOLDUAN: You've got -- now, the president says he wants -- he wants the Eric Swalwell to be investigated by the justice department.
And as you see from what he wants to have, you know, Larry Summers, Reid Hoffman, all these others.
What is it -- what on a human level, is it like when the -- when the president's attention with your name, it goes public like that?
TAYLOR: Yes, completely bonkers. It destroys your life. It destroys your life. And people can disagree with me about my criticisms of Trump. Yes, I served in his administration.
BOLDUAN: Right.
TAYLOR: I criticized him from in that administration. I left that administration. But he accused me of treason, a crime punishable by death. If I'm a guilty person of a crime tantamount to murder, why am I sitting at this table with you guys? Why am I not in handcuffs and in jail? Because there's no evidence that I'm guilty of treason.
But the president of the United States making that claim about private American citizens is pretty scary. And what I would say to my friends, at are fellow conservatives is that, when a Democrat is in power, do we want a Democrat doing this, tweeting investigations into existence, accusing people of crimes punishable by death? Guys, this isn't cool, whether you are a Democrat or a Republican.
So, anyone defending the President of the United States, I don't care if there's a D or R by his name, unilaterally tweeting investigations into private American citizens, we should all be condemning that. OK?
And it does wreck people's lives financially. Threats, not just against me, you can hate me, but why do you hate my wife? Why do you make threats against my 1-year-old daughter? That's not OK. This president is fanning the flames of that. He is abusing the justice system. I don't care if you say the last administration did or didn't. I'm not in a debate about weaponization. We could fix it now by stopping letting this happen. And Eric Swalwell this week, the people the president just said were going to be investigated are casualties in this lawlessness.
BOLDUAN: It just -- is -- it just -- I was thinking about it when you're coming on, because it is, no matter what it is breaking, saying the words, I know yours are really roll your eyes. But like, how normal it is that he tweets out time to investigate, and how not normal it still is that the president does and the impact of it?
All right, let's continue. Coming up for us, it is one reality that Donald Trump cannot deny the affordability crisis. He can't deny it now and now a surprising shift on some of his own tariffs.
Plus, REM not the only one losing their religion, new data showing a record decline in faith. But why? We'll debate ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:18:00]
BOLDUAN: Welcome back, friends. Tough on Trump, maybe known for being very successful and able to brush off scandals, controversies, and even convictions. But in his second term, there is at least, one issue that is cutting through his political shield -- the affordability crisis.
Well, Joe Biden, famously downplayed the economic concerns of Americans. Trump, flat-out denies they exist right now. And while he is dismissing them, he is, instead, focus on, well, the construction projects at the White House, Gatsby-like parties at Mar-a-Lago, and his crypto empire.
But this week, it does seem that there is -- there was some admission behind the scenes that his trade wars and his efforts so far are not helping the problem.
The Times reports that he may roll back some tariffs to try and help lower prices on Americans.
Joining us right now --
TOURE: What? What?
WONG: What just happened? What just happened?
TOURE: Do I hear admits that lowering tariffs will lower prices. Oh, my God, he joins the rest of us in reality. That's amazing.
WONG: Look, he didn't say that.
BOLDUAN: So, he didn't, but the Treasury -- that was the best reaction I've seen him anyway. I hope you can come on my show anytime regularly. But the treasury secretary this week did say the administration is going to lower tariffs on items that are not produced in the United States, like bananas and coffee. And his quote this week was that will bring the prices down very quickly.
To me, this was kind of the most important, least talked about moment of the week, because this does feel like a first, a first admission that they took, at least in some aspects, they took the trade war too far. They were doing more damage than good.
WONG: Yes, and they realized that the Trump tariff plan was taking too long to really come to fruition, where, quarter by quarter, we are starting to see numbers really dip, and American suffering. Because guess what? These tariffs do trickle back to the American pocketbooks. Right? So, we get that.
[07:20:00]
But I think Trump's tariff plan in the long term could work. We are just rebalancing and reshuffling the world order. You know, if I'm buying a Harley Davidson in India, I have to pay 200 percent tariffs on that.
But if I'm buying an Indian-made motorcycle here in the U.S., I'm paying two percent. How is that fair? Right?
So, I think, Trump wants to get all that kind of leveled off. It's going to take a lot of time, but unfortunately, our bananas and our coffee is costing way too much right now.
TOURE: You know, this is an interesting issue, because so many times, you know, we say one thing and the MAGA see something else because we are seeing different sorts of news. The things that they see on their computer are telling them different things than what I am seeing.
But we all see the same prices when we go to the grocery store. And the White House can say all they want. We don't have an affordability crisis. People know eggs cost more, gas costs more, utilities cost more. So, when you are --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: And kind a whole complicated reason why they cost more. We keep going.
TOURE: Yes. But we know that they do.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
TOURE: And we don't have to explain to them why, they know we are paying more. We know our paychecks go not as far. The White House is completely divert -- divorced from reality on this issue. And this is the sort of thing that really brings down a White House.
Besides Epstein, not being aware of what's going on at the kitchen table, that will kill a White House. TAYLOR: I have to say I agree with you on -- this is, I think the single most important issue happening in the country to most people. So, I run an organization called Defiance.org. It's people who are upset with the power of uses of the Trump administration.
Far and away, the thing we are hearing about the most is not troops. In U.S. cities, it's not even masked people on their streets picking folks up. It's not Epstein, it's prices at the grocery store. People are freaked out about the prices at the grocery store. And most people inside the beltway don't have to worry about going through the grocery and doing that.
I do. I live in normal, real America, like most people watching this program. I literally went shopping to feed my kid, put things back on the shelf, because I'm like, this is too expensive now. Tariffs are taxes. The president slapped a bunch of taxes on normal goods that everyday Americans get. The prices went up. Shocking. It's a problem. They are centrally managing the economy.
And I will just say, as a conservative, it's very frustrating to see a Republican president do that. We were supposed to be the party that disagreed with tariffs and taxes. We said it was socialist, and now the President is embracing it.
BOLDUAN: I heard some of the reporting this week, Lance, was like, internally at the White House, they are realizing that they have got -- they have got a messaging problem, and they are -- there is internal discussions about sending the president out to do a series of speeches about the economy and about affordability, and they are sending out all these statistics to say, actually, things are getting better.
And I was having deja vu from, like, the end of the Biden administration. When they, like, just didn't get it. When you have people don't feel good about it. Do you think they should be panicked in the White House right now?
TROVER: Well, I think you need to take it seriously given what happened in the election last week. I mean, clearly, people are -- yes, people are cranky when it comes to this issue. I'm not going to sit here and deny that.
But I do think they have a record to run on. They passed a massive tax cut package that's coming no tax on tips. Their people -- if it were up to the Democrats, people's taxes will be going up next spring. I think the president needs to get out and talk about that. It was a -- it's a great package. Those are the things he needs to talk about.
The economy is well. Doing pretty well. I mean, I got it.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: I know, but the -- he can called all the poll numbers really fake, but the numbers suck.
I mean, it's like, the CNN poll conducted by SSRS showed 72 percent Americans say the economy is in poor shape. That's 72. 61 percent say Trump's policies are making the economy worse. No one likes that.
I mean, if that number stays that way, can you win? Can you hold majorities in a midterm?
TROVER: Again, I go back to I think I agree with you. I think there is a recognition that he needs to get out and talk about some of the things he's done. I agree with you. Some of these policies are long term policies.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
TROVER: Tariffs. that's a long-term policy view, and I give them credit for recognizing that, hey, maybe we need to -- we need to change course. When it comes to some of these tariffs. I like coffee and bananas, I would like -- cheaper.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: It was so weird -- you know. It was a weird whiplash in the wake of Mamdani's victory that you saw -- at least, I heard the White House saying, we need to talk about affordability, and then, a day or two later, Trump saying, no, we are not going to talk about that. And if they want to --
(CROSSTALK)
WONG: He came right now to say exactly that.
TOURE: If they want to -- if they want to associate the affordability issue with democratic socialism and run from it, please do.
WONG: No, no. no, no, no.
TOURE: Because that just hands a lot to the Democrats.
WONG: Donald Trump came up in the very next morning to a GOP Senate breakfast to talk about affordability, the morning after Zohran Mandani won. He realized that young Americans cannot afford to buy into the American dream.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: And what happened after that? What happened after that?
WONG: He kept talking about affordability, so as J.D. Vance.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: And after that, he said we are not talking about affordability more.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: He actually said, I don't want to talk about affordability. He did -- he did say that. But look, no matter what he says, the reality is, you think that it's -- you think, the more Democrats run on democratic socialism, it's going to be good?
I mean, you have a -- you had another win.
TOURE: I hope so. Well, I hope so. I love it.
BOLDUAN: You had another win this week with the mayor and -- mayor in Seattle.
TROVER: Mayor in Seattle. For sure, I mean, like, yes, using government to take care of citizens is actually a fantastic idea. So, yes, we should have more of that, absolutely, rather than this squishy, moderate, middle.
[07:25:00]
So, many of us Dems are angry with Schumer, because they are corporatist, moderate Dems, who are not actually serving the needs of the people.
So, they are in the -- they are standing in the way of both -- of both parties actually accomplishing something.
And absolutely what Mamdani -- and what we are talking about in Seattle, other places, what democratic socialists are talking about, absolutely makes sense for America.
BOLDUAN: Still ahead for us, keeping out of it. America's close ally freezes intel sharing over Donald Trump's deadly and controversial boat strikes. What it means for the United States now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOLDUAN: America's greatest ally thinks America is doing illegal things.
[07:30:02]
In a dramatic move, the U.K. has stopped sharing intelligence with the United States over Donald Trump's deadly boat strikes in the Caribbean.
The Brits don't want to be complicit in what they say, what they see as illegal attacks. That is their concern. So far, the strikes have targeted 20 boats, killed at least 80 people in what the administration now calls Southern Spear as their operation against alleged drug trafficking.
This comes as the Pentagon is now giving President Trump options with the reporting is for military action in and against Venezuela.
What do you think of this?
TAYLOR: Is a very big deal. I've sat on the other end of British counterparts and been that official they're engaging with to talk about intelligence sharing on sensitive issues, and that was in the first Trump administration. And look, we did a lot of stupid things in the first Trump administration that we were rightfully repudiated for, but we never had the Brits say to us, we are not going to share information with you anymore. This is the special relationship. This is our closest ally. This is a very big repudiation, and it does signal that they not only think the strikes are illegal, but probably that more of our allies think what's happening is unlawful.
BOLDUAN: The former commander of Southern Command was on my show and said like, this does not happen very often. This is a significant thing.
TAYLOR: Yes.
BOLDUAN: And right now, in the Caribbean, they think, they believe, is the largest concentration of naval -- U.S. naval forces anywhere in the world, in the Caribbean right now, which leads to -- how is this not going to end up with the United States starting a war?
WONG: But do you not like that? I like being protected from all these drug boats coming into Miami.
TOURE: How do you know their drug votes? How do you know their drug votes?
WONG: Well, I'm sure Intel tells them that, because we're not just blowing random things up. But here is the thing.
TOURE: You are sure?
WONG: Look, I like, I'm in Miami. I'm a representative in Miami. I don't like them coming to our shores and then drugs working its way up at the I-95 to kind of spread drugs and guns and it leads to prostitution and other things and other crimes. I don't like that. Why don't we cut off the supply chain in the waters before he even lands on U.S. soil. What's wrong with that?
TAYLOR: Well, you that -- you do that with law enforcement?
TOURE: Yes.
TAYLOR: I have overseen these operations before. If you have the ability to lawfully intercept a boat, the laws of proportionality say you go with the least destructive measure. This is not warfare. This is not a battlefield. We didn't launch an air strike at -- we didn't launch an air strike at Jeffrey Epstein's condo. He was a criminal. He was a pedo. He did bad things. No, you go arrest that person.
Those boats are very easy to intercept. I have watched the coast guard intercept those boats.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: This is -- very outgrowth of the war on drugs, which we lost, which we see does not work. We cannot police our way out of. If you really are concerned with drug use, the only way is legalization. The only way to move beyond criminal drug usage, criminal drug pushing, is to have the government take control of that. Right?
Tax people, have it moderate. At what --
You know, if we have done this show in 1920, I would have said we should legalize liquor, and you would say, that's insane, we can't do that. We have done that and we are fine as a society. There would have been a time we said legalizing marijuana. That's insane. We did that. We have not fallen apart as a society.
WONG: It's a great theory.
TOURE: The marijuana is legal in this city.
WONG: Fantastic theory in the classroom.
TOURE: It's the only -- it's the way. That is how we have we dealt with marijuana, the marijuana criminalization.
WONG: Here in New York and other blue cities, in red cities, like Miami, we got rid of Proposition Four on our ballots because we didn't want this to be -- we didn't want the drugs on our streets.
TOURE: Let me have about 24 states, where marijuana is legalized. It's not just the blue -- it not just blue cities.
WONG One question --
BOLDUAN: One where does this go, is there is privately in the White House, there is an acknowledgement that they would like Maduro to leave.
Obviously, Maduro is saying -- the president of Venezuela, saying that this is all this is about. Is that they are trying to force regime change.
If officials in the White House, Lance, start saying the quiet part out loud. I mean, I've heard Lindsey Graham say, yes, I think that's likely what, what he wants to see happen is that -- is that -- isn't that antithetical to what the MAGA base wants
TROVER: No, not at all. I mean, let's remember Venezuela is -- well, back up. Barack Obama labeled them a national security threat back in 2015. They have been on a threat with human rights and everything else. They are the cog of all of the drug trade going on. around the Americas, to Europe and everything. That is -- That is absolutely a fact.
They are also a cog for --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: I think Columbia and Mexico are much stronger than, than it's way on this issue.
TROVER: I let you speak your socialist stuff. Give me a second here.
They are also the cog for Iran, Russia and China, where they all meet up. I don't know what President Trump's going to be -- going to do on this stuff, but I would not want to be Maduro right now. They have a lot of problems. If we got democracy in that country, it would mean a lot for our national security. It would mean a lot to ending the scourge of drugs in this country and helping out the entire region.
[07:35:03]
TOURE: I love the whole notion that we are just saying, we are going to just dethrone their leader and impose democracy, which has worked so well in the Middle East.
I mean, I know that's what we do in America, that we take leaders we don't like and push them aside and try to plant democracy there. It generally doesn't work. But that's not legal, and that's not the way we are supposed to --
TAYLOR: Well, I don't disagree with Lance and Angie. Maduro is a very, very bad dude. I got no love lost for these drug runners either. But look, the really important thing we need to focus on here. And I mean this, and I'm serious as a heart attack, people are going to go to prison for doing this.
People are breaking the law for killing subjects that the laws of war say they can't. I want these guys to rot behind bars, but you can't just go kill people that don't represent an imminent threat to you. That's scary, it sets a bad precedent.
BOLDUAN: I also heard one person say an interesting bit, if you really do want Maduro to go, is that what you're doing with these strikes is you're destroying all of the evidence actually connecting Maduro to pushing drugs into the United States.
TROVER: Sure. Why we arresting?
BOLDUAN: This is which is why you arrest, why you investigate, and that is not what is being left behind when you're sending hell fire missiles in the canoe. But I digress.
Let's go to this. Coming up for us, less and less people following George Michael's advice. Faith on decline. But just go with it. But why? We will discuss next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:41:03]
BOLDUAN: So, there is something of a new holy war going on, on religion, at least, in the United States. Fewer than half of Americans say faith is an important part of their daily lives. The lowest on record in a recent Pew Research Center poll, also shows that 30 percent do not identify with religion. That's another record. And in the past two decades, the number of Christians, or people identify as Christian, has dropped nearly 20 percent to 60 percent. So, why is this so, and what impacts does this have on all aspects of our life, politics, society, family, all of the above. Where do you want to begin? What's the source of it, or what's the impact of it? What do you guys think?
WONG: I think amongst conservatives, I actually see these numbers going up, especially, in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death. I think, you are starting to see young people get off their phones and actually seek community. They need to feel people again. They need to be around people, not just their phones all the time.
They are finding it in church, they are finding in houses worship. They are looking for something else, because for an entire generation, we kind of miss this one, right? And they realize that ties back to stability, financial stability, and all sorts of great things, family. And I think that, especially, young men, they are -- I've seen them at church. They are excited to go church, because the now it's like a -- it's like a rock concert. It's no longer just like, you know, reading the Bible.
TOURE: I think for some people, the hypocrisy of the American church is too much. I'm big on TikTok, and perhaps, the best usage of TikTok of all time, this woman, Nikalie Monroe, is calling churches, and saying, will you donate a can of baby formula to me, because my baby has not eaten since last night, and she is two months old. And she called, I think, 50 churches, and 40 of them said no.
The mosque said yes, but the churches are saying no. And this just not all of them. But it's about 40 no, to nine or 10 yes. So, this is clearly exposing the hypocrisy of the American church that when we call -- I mean, wasn't that the core of what it is? Be good to your neighbor, give to other people in your community? And a woman calls and says, we are hungry and you won't -- I mean, like, isn't that what Mary and Baby Jesus went through?
BOLDUAN: Is it -- is it just -- is it distrust, or is it distrust of organized religion, distrust of the institution? Or is it, I don't know. I almost think like it's, to me, it feels a little chicken and egg, like, is politics a reflection of how like faith has been lost? Or is faith being lost because politics is such an absolute mess?
TAYLOR: I think it's this.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
TAYLOR: I think it's this. Almost all the anti-institutionalism you are seeing in society. You peel it back, a lot of it leads to tech. Whether it's against the major political parties, whether it's against major corporations, whether it's against organized religion, you have seen since the advent of the social media age, the extraordinary empowerment of the individual.
We all feel like we're self-sovereign now. We don't need those institutions. We don't need someone to tell us what to do. And I will say as someone who is been an atheist, an agnostic and now a follower of Jesus Christ, at all of those phases, I felt like it was important to live in a country where people embrace their faith, whether they were Christian, whether they were Muslim, because I know, as a student of history that social cohesion has been crucial to the rise of the free world and the capitalist society we live in that's resulted in an extraordinary explosion in human growth.
I think every American, whether they are a person of faith or not, should look at those numbers plummeting and say, it's probably bad for me.
BOLDUAN: What can one do or a community do to turn it around?
TAYLOR: Take this, break it open your leg.
(CROSSTALK)
WONG: Yes. You are right. I love your polling and that doing what you can do.
BOLDUAN: That's all you've got now.
TAYLOR: And rehumanize. I mean, genuinely though, I think we need to rehumanize this thing, dehumanizes everyone at this table. We have so much more fun when we're sitting together. We say mean things to each other, not --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: But it's only -- I think, but it's only --
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Oh, but it create community through the phone, through the tech, through the social media.
TAYLOR: And churches -- but churches create that in person community, just like Andrew said.
WONG: Correct. Yes.
TAYLOR: When I go to church, people are jazzed to be there now, because it's the only place they are interacting with strangers anymore.
TROVER: And studies have shown that the U.K. is going through what's called they call it a quiet revival.
[07:45:01]
Young men are going. I have numbers here. Four percent of young men in 2018, it's now up to 16 percent. So, there is, I think it is moving in that direction. It's just -- if you talk to evangelicals, it's just going to take a long time for that to happen. It is slowly, you know, working its way. And if you also talk to evangelicals, they would tell you that, at one point, at many -- at one point in time, even if you didn't follow Christ, people went to church because they got a benefit out of it.
And then, somewhere around the 70s, 80s, it was kind of neutral. But now, and I'm going to dip into politics here, I think there are people who in major metropolitan areas feel like maybe they get canceled or what they believe in, and so, they don't go to church as much anymore. And that is part of the factoring into it.
TAYLOR: On both sides.
TROVER: On both sides.
TAYLOR: Totally.
TROVER: Yes, for sure.
BOLDUAN: And we have seen, I mean, it is always kind of been on the edges, right? But and we have seen a lot of politics entering, entering the church, entering the mosque, entering the synagogue, in maybe kind of to me, I wonder, what is the end result. Like, what does that do? Does it bring people more together, to be more understanding, or does it push people further away from houses of worship, because they get enough of it on the outside, they don't want it on means.
TROVER: I think it's also keeping politics out of the churches. I've certainly been to many churches over the course of time where I felt too much on either side was being injected into a sermon, and that's where I'm just like most part when I go, when I find myself in a church, it feels very old. It feels no different than what my parents were dragging me to in the 70s. I'm like, have we grown?
When I see churches through my phone, I'm like, nothing is saying I want to go be part of that. When I look at Joel Osteen or whatever. Nothing is saying --
(CROSSTALK)
TAYLOR: You got to come to my church. It's red. It's way cooler than that. But that's a separate conversation.
BOLDUAN: Well, you -- since you use the word rad, it's --
TAYLOR: I will just say, when I talk to faith leaders, they say exactly what Lance said, their hardest challenge is dealing with politics coming into the church. But they are also like the people in my congregation don't want me to avoid it because it's the most challenging moral issues they are grappling with in their lives. It's just off balanced.
BOLDUAN: With desk are you look to when you have -- when you are struggling into something.
TOURE: Yes, there is a church theorist that my wife likes us to go to occasionally. It's, I mean, you walk up, it says, Black Lives Matter, LGBTQ, like, all the things that --
(CROSSTALK) BOLDUAN: Yes. All the flags are up.
TOURE: Yes. All the Brooklyn type things that you would expect. They are like, we are -- and I'm like, great, I feel welcome here with you guys. If you are not saying those things, I'd be like, I don't know. Am I welcome here? Really? Like, I don't know.
WONG: But those same flags are what keeps me out of that church, right? It's too political. I don't need it in my face. I don't need to be part of that. Because whether or not I believe that's fine. That's my own faith, but I don't need to join that and I feel like that message is going to get pushed on you if I join that church.
BOLDUAN: I think, faith leaders are like such a hard place to thread that needle, get it right, be to what their congregation needs at all these different points. I feel like that is such a tough and clearly important position being right now.
Let's go to this, guys. Next the panel's unpopular opinions and what they're not afraid to say out loud.
But first, a programming note. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan travels to South Africa to investigate claims of white genocide. President Trump is talking about it, but what really is going on? "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER", Sunday night at 8:00 on CNN and the next day on the CNN app.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:53:00]
BOLDUAN: And we are back, and it is time for your unpopular opinions. I love this segment. You each get three seconds to tell us what is so unpopular and what you care so much about, Miles.
TAYLOR: Oh, man, people are going to hate this one. I even hate saying this.
BOLDUAN: That's the point of the (INAUDIBLE).
TAYLOR: Because I don't like activists, the buying sort of campaigns.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
TROVER: Yes.
TAYLOR: But, as Black Friday approaches, people really do have an opportunity to send a message to companies. And it's something that we've been talking about all week at Defiance.org and that is there is a lot of concern about American companies right now showing capitulation and instead of courage in the face of power abuses in Washington, people need to be very thoughtful about what they buy on Black Friday.
They may see that awesome deal with that company that they like. They should think about what that -- whether that company has been capitulating to power abuses in Washington or standing up and showing courage. That's my unpopular opinion.
BOLDUAN: Very interesting. What do you think? Angie?
WONG: Yes. Well, my unpopular opinion here is that Olivia Nuzzi and other ex-lovers of politicians are all writing, tell all books, and they are making zillions of dollars doing this. And I used to think, you know, like, if you're going to be someone's Paula Moore (PH) or someone's lover, you, you know, you kind of stay quiet. But now, you are banking on it, and these girls are putting it out there, all of it. Right? That there is love stories. It's very salacious. I kind of love it at the same time and hate it.
TOURE: You love it and hate it --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: Love it and hate it. And you know what, if you -- if you will, you are scorned and you make money off it. There you go.
TOURE: So -- where is my camera? OK.
BOLDUAN: Yes, it is, sir.
TOURE: Vegetables are a scam. Big vegetable lobby has made us think we have to have this with every meal. It's bogus. I haven't had a vegetable in two years.
WONG: What?
BOLDUAN: Is that one went to this?
TOURE: Sorry mom. I have been better shape than anybody on this table.
BOLDUAN: Is that one led to this insanity?
TOURE: And you don't need them. They just tell you, you need them, but you don't.
WONG: If I had -- what?
BOLDUAN: If I -- if you had to eat a vegetable right now, what could I serve you that you would eat?
TOURE: Steak?
BOLDUAN: What? Too expensive. Sorry buddy.
TROVER: Do we vegetables in your socialist utopian?
[07:55:07]
WONG: Oh, my dad ends, we're ads. Go.
TROVER: Kids, don't listen to this man. Eat your vegetable.
TOURE: Time is wrap. Time to go. TROVER: I could help it. I could help it.
All right, I've said a lot that's going to get a lot of crazy social media stuff. Nothing will top this.
Yes, I think the Beatles suck. I said it.
TOURE: Oh, that's crazy. That's crazy. That's wild.
BOLDUAN: Whoa!
TROVER: I do not like him --
BOLDUAN: Cancel.
WONG: Why?
BOLDUAN: What about them? So, offends you?
TOURE: The early Beatles or the early Beatles.
TROVER: Don't like -- I don't like her.
Any of the Beatles.
BOLDUAN: That's crazy.
TROVER: Sorry. Sorry, Paul, sorry, guys.
TOURE: Oh, men. We are going to --
BOLDUAN: We are going to fine on that.
TOURE: I know. I know.
TAYLOR: We are going to have to help you out of the building. I don't agree with you, but I know I need to protect you now. This is very unpopular.
BOLDUAN: Well, I'm scared for you.
TOURE: Yes.
BOLDUAN: But so thankful for you.
TOURE: Yes.
BOLDUAN: Thanks, guys. It's really nice having you here today. Thank you everyone so much, and thank you all for watching TABLE OF FIVE. CNN's coverage continues right now.
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