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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Trump's Economic Message Sounding More Like Biden And Carter; Fed Chief Blames Trump's Tariffs For Elevated Inflation. Republicans Worry Trump Is Missing The Mark On Affordability; Trump Wants To Reject Immigrants From Shithole Countries; Conservatives Warn Indiana Of Punishment Over Map; Australia Begins Ban Of Social Media For Children Under 16. Aired 7-8a ET
Aired December 13, 2025 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[07:00:35]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ABBY PHILLIP, ANCHOR, CNN (voice over): Today, the man building ballrooms and splashing the White House in gold tells Americans to sacrifice.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can give up certain products. You can give up pencils.
PHILLIP (voice over): Why Donald Trump's message sounds a lot like Joe and Jimmy?
Plus, back to the future. The president admits to one of his most infamous phrases.
TRUMP: They say, why is it we only take people from shithole countries?
PHILLIP (voice over): While coming clean about which immigrants he really wants.
Also, from invincible to vulnerable, Trump's own party rejects his demands for a new political map. And should kids be banned from social media? Australia makes it illegal. But will the U.S.?
MAYOR RAHM EMANUEL, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS: When it comes to our adolescents, it's either going to be adults or the algorithms.
PHILLIP (voice over): Here in studio, Stephen Moore, Bomani Jones, Lydia Moynihan and Congressman Jared Moskowitz. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at the TABLE FOR FIVE.
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PHILLIP (on camera): Hi, everyone. I'm Abby Phillip in New York.
Trying to keep up with Donald Trump's economic messaging is like trying to follow how many weeks it's been since he first promised a health care plan. That's 10 years, by the way. But here are some highlights. Prices are not high. OK, prices may be high, but it's Joe Biden's fault. Tariffs are the most amazing thing to happen to the U.S. economy, except that we're going to give a bailout to farmers who were hurt by said tariffs.
The economy is the greatest in the history of the world, but you should only buy one pencil and two dolls instead of 30.
So, right now, the president's messaging sounds a lot like two of his predecessors, both of them Democrats. Like Trump, Joe Biden insisted that the economy was great no matter what your feelings say. And like Jimmy Carter, Trump is telling Americans to do more with less.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You know, you can give up certain products. You can give up pencils. That's under the China policy. You know, every child can get 37 pencils. They only need one or two. You know, they don't need that many, but you always need -- you always need steel. You don't need $37 for your daughter. Two or three is nice, but you don't need 37 dolls.
JIMMY CARTER, 39TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All of us must learn to waste less energy simply by keeping our thermostats, for instance, at 65 degrees in the daytime and 55 degrees at night, we could save half the current shortage of natural gas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And just how much do Trump and Republicans loathe Jimmy Carter? Well, former Speaker Kevin McCarthy called that speech one of the reasons that he became a Republican.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN MCCARTHY, FORMER REPRESENTATIVE OF CALIFORNIA: I was in the sixth grade. I turn on the T.V. I watch Jimmy Carter have a sweater on and tell me to turn the heater down, that the best days were behind us. That as an American, I had to accept less. That wasn't how I was raised.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, Congressman, I get that I'm going to pose this to you, and you would maybe have to criticize your fellow Democrats. But Trump does seem to be following in -- falling into the trap that President Biden did and that Jimmy Carter did when he was basically asking people to be austere for the good of the country.
REP. JARED MOSKOWITZ (D-FL): Yes, by the way, it's always good to see a speech of Kevin McCarthy. I only had nine months of his speakership. So --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Throwback. Throwback.
MOSKOWITZ: What's that -- it's a -- it's a -- it's a throwback. It was a throwback. So, I mean, what's wild is plot twist. Right? For a year, Democrats told voters how to feel about the economy. We said the economy was great. The stock market was great. Bidenomics didn't work at the ballot box because people went into the grocery store and saw prices on the receipts, not partisanship or propaganda.
And Donald Trump is literally running our playbook. Like, every time he says affordability is a hoax, like another Democrat sprouts out of the ground and lands in the House of Representatives.
OK. it's a -- it's like Ron Burgundy on television saying, go after yourself, San Diego. OK?
This is not only not going to work for him, it's going to be catastrophic. You might as well just say Trumpanomics next week. He is just like, one step away from the -- what Biden did for a whole year leading up to the election.
[07:05:02]
PHILLIP: I do wonder if there is another piece of this that makes it harder for him.
Here is -- what Marjorie Taylor Greene said about it this week in terms of why it is hard for Trump to make this case in particular.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I think, the president needs to be aware that he is a billionaire. President of the United States, and you can't gaslight people and tell them that their bills are affordable, and you can't tell them that the economy is an A plus, plus, plus. You just can't do that, and I think it's insulting to people's intelligence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Is she right or is she wrong, because Americans have generally given Trump a pass for being a billionaire?
BOMANI JONES, HOST, THE RIGHT TIME WITH BOMANI JONES PODCAST: Yes. No, but she is right. Nobody wants to hear the rich person tell you that you are going to be OK. Right? Like, it was interesting with Carter. The Carter argument is largely tied to we have a shortage of energy. Right?
Trump is telling people, nah, nah, nah, you don't deserve to feel as good as you want to, right? Like, the argument, like the doll thing, for example. It's like I had you guys are being wasteful in ways that don't even matter.
To me, what all the politicians mess up every time is nobody cares about the economy itself, right? People are not that sophisticated. They are not -- it's not a battle. They are not reading the Wall Street Journal about this. They are not running models to see if the economy is good. They know how they feel. People care about an economy within their own homes. You are never going to tell them how to feel about that.
And that's what any politician that tries to say, come on now, it's not really that bad, is it? I told you it was bad. That's what all of them are saying. And yes, when you're the rich person and you try to pull that, people get over that real fast.
MOSKOWITZ: We tried it. We tried it. It failed for a whole year. It's wild to watch the president who is a better communicator than we are, OK. But it's wild to watch him try the thing we tried, which is to tell people how to feel.
PHILLIP: Stephen, I mean, you were rattling off a lot of statistics this week, and the money's point is that, that doesn't really matter when people feel like the ship is rocky and they are not sure if they are going to be tipped overboard.
STEPHEN MOORE, CO-FOUNDER, COMMITTEE TO UNLEASH AMERICAN PROSPERITY: Well, I mean, with all due respect, Congressman, the difference between Jimmy Carter and Joe Biden, the Donald Trump is the economy really did stink when Jimmy Carter was president, the economy really did stink when Joe Biden was president, and we actually have just in terms of looking at the statistics, and maybe you're right, people are not interested in the statistics, but we have 7 million open jobs, an all-time record. We have the highest wages and salaries in history. We have hundreds of billions of dollars capital coming into the country. We have gasoline prices at their lowest levels in five years. I mean, I could go on and on and on.
(CROSSTALK)
MOSKOWITZ: So, this is the greatest economy of all time.
MOORE: It's a -- it's a (INAUDIBLE). It's a --
MOSKOWITZ: The Golden Age. It's the Golden Age?
MOORE: Of all time?
MOSKOWITZ: Yes.
MOORE: Maybe not. But this is a very --
MOSKOWITZ: This is the president has said.
MOORE: No, the Reagan years were maybe better than that. But look, the point you got the stock market now, you know, we got 150 million people of money in the stock market -- the retirement --
(CROSSTALK)
MOSKOWITZ: I mean, you're -- these are like DNC talking points from a year ago.
MOORE: Yes.
MOSKOWITZ: Stock market is great.
MOORE: No, but it wasn't though.
I mean, the economy stunk when Biden was president. 20 -- if you look at -- OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MOSKOWITZ: The stock market, the --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: OK. you guys were talking about inflation, right? And that -- that's clearly what people are really concerned about. The high prices of things, 87 percent of the high prices that people are complaining about happened under Biden. Now, I get it. You -- it's always hard to blame your predecessor, but it is a good economy. It's going to get better. That's for sure.
LYDIA MOYNIHAN, CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK POST: Well, I would say that --
MOORE: Yes.
MOYNIHAN: You're talking about is Trump messaging like Carter or like Biden. I would say it's like Obama, who, when he took office, repeatedly said, I inherited a fiscal mess, the worst economy in history. And I think, Obama was right then. And to an extent, Trump is right now.
And I think two things can be true at the same time.
MOORE: Yes.
One is that Trump did inherit a economy where prices are up 25 percent. They are sort of a Biden hangover, if you will.
And Americans are still feeling the pinch. Absolutely.
MOORE: That's true.
MOYNIHAN: Affordability is a feeling, and you're not going to talk somebody out of their feeling, which is, frankly, also a reality. Prices are higher.
At the same time, the things that he's doing, I think, are moving the economy in the right direction. And the linchpin of his economic message, which is completely different, completely different from Carter or Biden, is innovation and growth. And he is investing in A.I. He is getting countries to invest in America.
And I think over the next year, we're going to see reshoring, we're going to see more factories.
MOORE: Yes.
MOYNIHAN: And we're going to see artificial intelligence, which we're already seeing how it can make mortgages cheaper. People pay less to go through that process. We are seeing how it can help with medicine, people can just deal with a smart chatbot.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Yes, but it also -- but it also could result in loss of jobs. Yes, I mean --
MOYNIHAN: And I think, I --
PHILLIP: I do think that is part of what is on the horizon. Some of these job losses that we've experienced private sector job losses are efficiencies that are coming from companies basically shedding jobs that they are -- they don't believe that they are going to need in an A.I. world.
So, there are two sides to that coin. It's not to say the A.I. is bad, but it's just that these are some of the headwinds. He doesn't control --
MOYNIHAN: Create construction. Yes.
PHILLIP: Yes, he doesn't control that part. But he is -- he is going into the headwinds of A.I., while also dealing with the headwinds of tariffs, while also dealing with the headwinds of lingering inflation, and that is what people are feeling.
JONES: You have also, A.I. right now was a bet, right? Like the idea that the economy is being anchored -- is really being moored and held up by what's going to happen with the A.I. sector, which, every year -- the stories come out every year. This is the make-or-break year for A.I.
[17:10:02]
This is the make-or-break year for A.I. If it spins toward the break, then, we are all in trouble.
And I think in terms of messaging of the economy, when you say, oh, well, actually, the best economy was the Reagan days. If the point is the greater -- the best economy was the Reagan days, I think you go take that to the streets of the people who lived during the Reagan days. That like --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: The way -- the big, like boom.
JONES: Yes, yes.
MOORE: They didn't like the boom? JONES: Yes, they didn't. That's the winner?
MOORE: Listen, the A.I. boom is coming. It's coming much past faster than most people think. We are already seeing it for -- just as an example, I was in Los Angeles about three weeks ago. One-Third of the cars that the Uber driver, Ubers and the Lyfts are, there is no driver.
PHILLIP: Yes. So, no people -- no people no jobs.
MOORE: So, this stuff is -- and that's going to be the case really quickly.
PHILLIP: Yes, I know. But I guess what I'm saying is that I hear you guys talking about this as an unequivocal win for the economy, and I think it is definitely a win for the advancement of technology, but I think we have to acknowledge that Americans are going to start --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: It's going to make everything -- it's going to make everything cheaper.
We're talking about inflation. Everything is going to --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Well, every -- might make things cheaper
MOORE: Yes.
PHILLIP: Well, every -- be might make things cheaper.
MOORE: Yes.
PHILLIP: But a lot of people are not going to have dollars anymore.
MOORE: I would be displaced.
PHILLIP: By the way, when -- I just want big -- I just want to -- I think, we have to just put that all the table.
People are not going to have jobs anymore. And there is -- as far as I have seen, I have not seen the administration actually address that piece of A.I. What do you do with all the people who are not needed to drive Ubers, are not needed to do all these mid-level jobs that they use to have.
MOSKOWITZ: Howard Lutnick told us what they are going to do. They are going to be taking those little screws and putting them into the iPhones. He told us that that's what we are going to train people to do.
Listen, Stephen may be right, right? Things may get cheaper, but there's no evidence that corporations are going to pass that savings off to the customer. Zero evidence, they have not done any of that. I don't know about you. I'm --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: Well, the Internet did. They -- Internet age is completely --
(CROSSTALK)
MOSKOWITZ: Hold on. As the president said, I'm giving up pencils and dolls for the lent. So, you know, because things are -- things are so -- are so great.
Look, the Federal Reserve said tariffs are adding to inflation, right? So, to say that the president's --
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: But there was a one-time price hike.
MOSKOWITZ: Well, that's --
MOYNIHAN: Baked in.
MOSKOWITZ: That's what he is saying. We'll have to see if that's true, right? Well, we'll know that in Q1 Q2. --
MOYNIHAN: Jerome Powell does not have a good track record. So, that is fair pushback.
MOSKOWITZ: OK. Well, that's --
PHILLIP: I mean, he is also just -- it's just a fact that the inflation picture has turned back up when it didn't need to do that. It could have kept going down.
MOORE: Whatever. But how he -- what do you mean it's --
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: Marginally.
PHILLIP: That the rate of inflation has ticked up, as we discussed earlier.
MOORE: Inflation is 2.8 percent right now. It's five percent on the Biden.
PHILLIP: That you are -- you are -- you are using, year over year. It's three percent.
MOORE: Yes. Yes.
PHILLIP: According to the federal government. So that is -- that's what it was a year ago.
MOORE: OK. Right. PHILLIP: Even though it had ticked down earlier in the year. So, inflation has been ticking up. It is true that, that is because of tariffs. And I actually don't know that we've seen the full extent of the tariff picture, because I do think it will actually take time for the tariff picture to really come into play.
A lot of companies have been eating these costs. I'm not sure they're going to eat the costs forever. And I think that will be --
MOSKOWITZ: You don't -- you don't -- whether we use the word affordability or we use the word expensive. You don't see costs. Yes, gasoline is down. We agree there.
MOORE: Costs are going up, but people's wages are going up faster than the costs.
MOSKOWITZ: Oh, that that's not what I --
MOORE: That's true. No --
MOSKOWITZ: That's not -- that's not --
MOYNIHAN: Real wage growth is up.
MOSKOWITZ: That is not what I --
MOORE: Real incomes are up.
MOSKOWITZ: In the state of --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: Yes, and even median incomes are up by about $1200.
MOSKOWITZ: In the State of Florida, that's not what's going on, because you got home insurance going through the roof.
MOORE: That's included --
MOSKOWITZ: But you got -- you got the cost of living. You got the cost of groceries.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: But, by the way, I will -- I will?
MOSKOWITZ: Car payment average is $750 dollars now for a car.
MOORE: You know, what's state has the lowest cost of living?
MOYNIHAN: Look, again --
MOORE: Florida. Florida is like the state everybody wants to --
MOSKOWITZ: Well, you are just talking -- you are just talking about the income taxes. PHILLIP: Florida. Florida is like the state everybody wants --
MOSKOWITZ: Well, you are just talking -- you are just talking about the income taxes.
PHILLIP: Actually. Florida inflation has gone up the most in the last five years. So --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: But it has the one of the --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: One of the states that it's gone up.
But I will -- but I will say that --
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: The states with the highest --
MOYNIHAN: Everyone wants to --
MOSKOWITZ: You are taking -- you're taking out income tax. That's one.
PHILLIP: Here is the last -- here is the only -- the last point that I make before we go to break.
I do think that you are -- what you're pointing out, you both can be right, actually, to a degree, because there are some costs that are, you know, maybe incomes are going up, some costs that are going slightly down. But then, there are a lot of costs that people can't avoid paying that are also going up.
MOORE: Well --
PHILLIP: That are also going up. And that's part of the issue here.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: The one thing you all worried about.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: You have to have, homeowners' insurance, you have to pay for your housing. Yes/
MOORE: You all worried about -- you are all worried about
As a political matter, people are angry about prices. The Republicans are losing elections. So, they better get some better messaging.
MOSKOWITZ: Yes, and they can -- they are not going to be able to say adjective, verb, Joe Biden for another year.
PHILLIP: They can't say it now because voters, voters don't believe that part of it either.
Next for us, Donald Trump finally admits to one of his most controversial phrases and what he really thinks of some immigrants?
[07:14{:19]
Plus, it's one of the biggest rebukes that Trump has ever faced from his own party. Why Indiana Republicans rejected him, and if there is more to come.
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PHILLIP: A big difference between Donald Trump's second term and the first is that he is finally willing to say out loud what he didn't before. This week, during a campaign-style speech in Pennsylvania, he admitted one of the first term's most infamous moments.
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TRUMP: Why is it we only take people from shithole countries, right? Why can't we have some people from Norway, Sweden, just a few. Let us have a few. From Denmark, do you mind sending us a few people? Send us some nice people. Do you mind?
But we always take people from Somalia, places that are a disaster, right? Filthy, dirty, disgusting, ridden with crime. The only thing they are good at is going after ships.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: A reminder that Trump denied saying that at the time.
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[07:20:04]
TRUMP: Did you see what various senators in the room said about my comments? They were not made.
No, no. I'm not a racist. I am the least racist person you have ever interviewed. That I can tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And it wasn't just Trump who denied it. Other Republicans who were there also denied it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID PERDUE, UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: I'm telling you, he did not use that word George. And I'm telling you it's a gross misrepresentation.
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): I didn't hear it. And I was sitting no further away from Donald Trump than Dick Durbin was.
And I know -- and I know what Dick Durbin has said about Donald, or about the president's repeated statements, is incorrect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Turns out it was very much correct. And it also helps to explain why, currently, the U.S. policy is that we only let White people claim asylum to come into this country right now, if you are from the continent of Africa. He is saying it all out loud now.
JONES: I guess, for me, you know, those are obvious lies Right? In the time, in the moment, there was no question. Is -- and even if he did not say it, the sentiment was so abundantly clear that to me, getting the confirmation of it right now is a little bit less about, aha, gotcha than it is that he has forgotten the basic level of pretending that he has to do in public about these things that he feels.
Like, I do not think that four or five years ago, he would have given up to ghosts like this in front of people. This is another side of a man that doesn't have it quite together like he did before.
PHILLIP: But I also think he also knows that there is no penalty for it. That it's OK now in the Republican Party to say, we only want to let White people come into this country. We only want immigrants from European countries. That's OK to say when it maybe wasn't OK to say, five years ago.
MOYNIHAN: This is not a race issue. This is a cultural issue. And what we have seen in Somalia --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I didn't make it a race issue, the Trump administration did, when they literally -- their policy on asylum is that no one comes in except for white South African.
MOYNIHAN: It does not -- so this year, the only people we let in in asylum was people from South Africa. That does not mean that the Trump administration is only letting --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: White people from South Africa. Not people from South Africa, only the white ones.
MOYNIHAN: OK. Well, I think it's important to have a conversation about America is not a charity. We have the opportunity and the ability to select who we want to come in and who we think is going to contribute economically and culturally.
In Minnesota, we've seen 81 percent of Somalians are on welfare. 35 percent of Somalia's GDP is remittances. And now, they've stolen at least a billion. Maybe, $8 billion. And so, there is a question --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Whose they?
MOYNIHAN: The Somalian community.
PHILLIP: No, no. No. No, no, no. No, no, no.
MOYNIHAN: So, there is a question of do we want to continue to allow people --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: The Somalian community did not steal $1.6 billion. People -- the 60 or so people who were convicted or who were charged with those crimes, they are responsible. Why are -- why is this collective responsibility thing now suddenly involve?
MOYNIHAN: OK. This is -- no, but this is an important point to make, and this is something that I think the American people resonate with.
Culturally, there are things that we do not want in America. Female genital mutilation happens in Somalia. We don't want that here. So, I think it's OK to say, look, there are cultural things that we don't want to bring into America.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Hey, look.
Wait. Look, there are people who we allow in this country who have multiple wives. They, you know, polygamy, totally fine.
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: I don't want to emerge that. I don't want more of that.
PHILLIP: Hey, but they are -- they are -- they are here. They are Americans, just like everybody else. I don't understand -- I --
MOYNIHAN: They are here, but do you want more of that? That's the question now.
MOSKOWITZ: And I couldn't afford that. If I'm just being -- I'm just being honest.
MOORE: Yes, yes, yes.
PHILLIP: Talk about inflation when you got two wives. But --
(CROSSTALK)
MOSKOWITZ: Yes.
MOORE: That -- look, but we want our immigration policy. We want to get the best and the brightest, and we do. And immigration is a great, great benefit to the United States. It's a comparative advantage over the rest of the world. But we can be selective in terms of who we take. People want to come in and work. We don't -- we want people are going to work and produce and not people (INAUDIBLE). That's all.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: And but -- my only -- yes, my only question is, are you -- are you going to treat people as a group?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: White --
MOORE: No, I want -- but you know, who is the most --
PHILLIP: Are you going to treat them as individuals? That's the question I'm asking. Are you comfortable with an immigration policy that says that we are going to just say, because you're from a certain part of the world, because you are -- you are from South Africa, but you're black, you are not allowed in this country because as a group, you are guilty of group sins. You are guilty of group cultural flaws that make you incompatible with this country.
I see people making that argument. I'm just -- I'm just curious if that is compatible with America, as you know it.
MOORE: So, can I say something about that, Abby? Because immigrants who come from Africa tend to do very well in this country. They do.
PHILLIP: Extremely well.
MOORE: So, it's a good -- so, I just want people going to come in who are -- who want to share our freedoms and contribute to our economy.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MOORE: That's all. They just shouldn't come in and go on welfare. It's that simple.
MOYNIHAN: We need to -- I think we should absolutely select the best of the best. It should be an individual choice. But I think we can also acknowledge there are certain cultures that are not compatible with America.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Which ones? Which ones?
MOYNIHAN: Well, if we look at Europe, actually, there was a lawyer this week who argued that an Afghan in. Immigrant who raped a woman shouldn't be charged or shouldn't have a penalty because his culture said that women were not free and equal.
[07:25:06]
We are seeing 77 percent of rapes in France are from migrants. So, shouldn't be charged or shouldn't have a penalty because his culture said that women weren't free and equal. We're seeing 77% of rapes in France are from migrants. So there is a real question that people on the right have the culture about certain cultures.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What are the cultures?
MOYNIHAN: The cultures that are okay with that. The cultures that are okay with female genital mutilation.
PHILLIP: So, I mean, is it? Is it Afghanistan? Is it Africans? Is it -- what is it? Like, how are we going to --
(CROSSTALK)
MOYNIHAN: Well, I would say in Somalia, 95-plus percent of women have female genital mutilation.
PHILLIP: How are we going to define culture? What about the people fleeing female genital mutilation? Are you going to allow them in? Are they allowed in?
MOYNIHAN: I mean, if you are fleeing, the concern -- the concern is that, we welcome people who were fleeing, and they are bringing it with them.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Are they allowed in?
If you are -- if you are Somali, if you are Somali, and you are a woman, and you are fleeing, you actually trying to leave because you --
MOYNIHAN: The FBI is now arresting people for bringing that with them.
PHILLIP: Hold on. If you want to leave, if you want to leave another country, Afghanistan, because you want to be able to read the United States says you are not allowed in because culturally, you are not compatible with this country. How does that make sense?
MOSKOWITZ: Well, that I mean, look, my grandparents came from Germany and Poland to escape the Holocaust. And before they got here, the whole USS St. Louis was turned away because Jewish culture was determined at that moment as non-compatible. So --
MOYNIHAN: This is why vetting matters, though, and this is why the -- I'm going to say --
(CROSSTALK)
MOSKOWITZ: I'm going to saying like that was not OK then, and it's not okay now, if people are fleeing, right?
MOORE: That's true. But it's --
MOSKOWITZ: And they can go through, and they can go through vetting. And they can go through vetting.
MOYNIHAN: This is why -- this is why vetting matter. (CROSSTALK)
MOORE: In fact, hold on. You are missing one big point.
PHILLIP: All right. Last word.
MOORE: There is no country that takes more immigrants into the -- than the United States.
MOSKOWITZ: That's right?
MOORE: That's we're the most generous country of the world.
MOSKOWITZ: We are a country of immigrants.
MOORE: Yes, of course.
JONES: I just want to know what's compatible about white South Africans and not the rest of them? Right?
If the argument is cultural compatibility, what would make white South Africans culturally compatible and Black was not.
MOYNIHAN: I have not seen that specific memo.
PHILLIP: All right. We'll leave it there. And next for us. The president's own party rejects him and his new political map in Indiana that's despite threats to their safety and their careers. So, is this the start of more pushback against Trump? We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:31:30]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. for a decade. Donald Trump's lock on his base and coalition has been strong. But now, the cracks keep emerging, and the president may have lost the key. Indiana Republicans rejected Trump's new political map, which would favor the party. They did this despite Trump's threats to oust them, despite threats to their personal safety, and despite threats to withhold funds to the state as payback, one high profile Democrat says Trump is no longer invincible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE BUTTIGIEG, FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: You know, big part of how Trumpism works is to make you feel totally disempowered, to make him feel inevitable. And yet, the clear takeaway from this is he is not unstoppable, and you are not without power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Now, this comes as Democrats keep winning races across the nation, including in districts that Trump won by double digits. And, of course, as MAGA is locked in the civil war over the future of the movement, including the high-profile breakup with Marjorie Taylor Greene, who says Trump is betraying his base on everything from the economy to the Epstein files.
I do think this is one of the most extraordinary things that has happened in part because of just the pressure that was placed on these Republicans. Lydia.
Again, I just wonder, do you think that in the White House, there is any sort of looking back on this and saying we may have gone a little bit too far? Jean Leasing is one of the representatives from Indiana, and she said she spoke at a breakfast this fall at her eighth-grade grandson school. Hours later, when she was set to give him a ride home from basketball practice, he bashfully told her that his entire team had received text messages about her that day, and "they were all bad."
That's insane. Who is texting a bunch of eighth graders on a basketball team about redistricting, and on what planet is that something that somebody in Washington thought was OK to do?
MOYNIHAN: Yes. I mean, I think, we all should take a step back and realize it's never okay to attack somebody. And I think unfortunately, it seems like we are in an era where people go after anyone in politics, personally and professionally. And of course, we've seen so much violence this year. ICE agents assassinated Charlie Kirk.
So, I think it's a reflection of where we are in this moment as to the question, though, of redistricting and the Maga movement. I think there's always been sort of a debate that's happening between Trump and those in the MAGA movement and more traditional, conventional sort of Country Club Republicans.
So, I wouldn't say that this is new. I think there's always been that tension since Trump came on the scene, and I think this is a continuation of that. I think what Republicans are more concerned about is, can a Republican who isn't Trump win when he's not on the ballot, and he is been able to sort of keep this coalition of seemingly disparate people together, people like Steve Bannon, people like Elon Musk MAHA moms. Can anyone else besides him do that? And I don't Know.
PHILLIP: Yes. That seems to very much be the issue at hand here. What do you think?
JONES: Specifically with Indiana, though. Like, what they were trying to do was just so egregious that even those people looked around and were like, dude, all of them, like every single one.
MOORE: Every district?
JONES: Yes. Like, come on, man. Like, when you look at that map that you just showed, that map is really red. Was like, blue, blue. They are like, no, no, no, wipe it all out. We done with it. Anything. Any reasonable person could look and be like, hey, man, that is not a sustainable way to go about governing a state. Like you -- that is, we cannot do that. And that is --
[07:35:01]
MOORE: Have you ever -- have you ever seen the Illinois map? I mean, look, this is -- this is a turned into a science gerrymandering in states. I think it's outrageous. I hate it, we should have computers do it, not politicians. It's easy to just compact the district.
MOYNIHAN: A.I. (INAUDIBLE).
MOORE: But it's happening to say it's just Republicans. I mean, it's happening in every (INAUDIBLE).
JONES: No. Anybody who gets the power, does it? I agree with you.
MOORE: Right.
JONES: But I'm asking you, does the Illinois map look completely blue? Like does it just look like the ocean?
Because what they would try to make the map look like in Indiana, just look, just red.
MOORE: You have almost no Republican seats known. I live in there.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: You said (INAUDIBLE), but you said almost, right?
MOORE: Yes. But Indiana is a much smaller state than Illinois. But my point is, they have got districts that go like a snake right down in the middle of the sea.
MOYNIHAN: I'm curious to ask the Democrats at the table, though, because it seems like, in a way, this is maybe a cease fire and what's been an arms race of sort of an escalating Texas, California, everyone is trying to gerrymander. So, I'm curious, do you think that by Indiana taking a step back, that we are going to see the same from Democrats in Virginia, for instance, who have been pushing for gerrymandering.
MOORE: Yes. Good question.
MOSKOWITZ: Such a fascinating question. I represent Florida. The party there has said they are going to read -- they are going to gerrymander the whole state. There are eight Democrats in the state, they have talked about taking away as many of five seats. The good news in Florida is we have a constitutional amendment that the voters put in the Constitution that bars political gerrymandering, which is what's going on in this state.
MOORE: Great, yes.
MOSKOWITZ: So, maybe it could be a reset. Stephen is right that both parties have been doing this for years. There is no doubt about that. But it was slightly different when the president of the United States and the Republican establishment came out and said, here is the plan to make sure we don't lose power in the House in '26. It wasn't one state doing it and another state. It was a coordinated effort and set off an arms race. And I will say this. At the end of the day, Democrats are going to win the House. It just -- we have 100 years of history. It's going to happen. And the five or six seats that they are going to mess around with is not going to stem the tide, but it is going to destroy the House permanently.
There are -- because -- well, because there's only 30 seats now that the general election even matters.
MOORE: Look, that's my point, about what gerrymandering is so bad so bad.
MOSKOWITZ: Yes, yes, correct. No, no.
MOORE: I mean, you don't have any application --
MOYNIHAN: I think that's --
MOSKOWITZ: And so, when you take that down to 20 seats, and take that down to 15 seats --
MOORE: It's terrible.
MOSKOWITZ: We will not be able to pass any bills in the House. Representative.
MOORE: That's true.
PHILLIP: And this is not going to be -- this is not going to be -- this is not going to be the end of it.
MOSKOWITZ: No.
PHILLIP: Because you better believe that the moment that Democrats see an opportunity to run this playbook again, whenever they want to, which is essentially the precedent that Republicans are setting, they will probably do that.
MOSKOWITZ: Because Congress is like high school. If one -- if one party does another thing to another party, once the other party does it two times, we take a member off committee, the next time we take two members off committee, Right?
MOORE: That's called escalation.
MOSKOWITZ: Right? And we bare in total escalation in the House of Representatives; I can't talk about the Senate.
MOORE: Thank God they can't gerrymander the Senate.
PHILLIP: That's true. It's gerrymandered in other ways. But OK, next for us. Should the U.S. follow Australia's lead and ban social media for children? One potential 2028 candidate thinks so. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [07:42:50]
PHILLIP: Should America follow Australia's lead and banned social media for children younger than 16? The Aussies say it is addictive and it's a risk to their health and safety, and at least one potential 2028 candidate says that's a good idea.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMANUEL: When it comes to our adolescents, it's either going to be adults or the algorithms. One of them is going to raise the kids. Today, I'm calling for the United States to follow suit, come up with its own plan. But protect our children, help our parents, strengthen our families, and restrict all the social media when it comes to access to kids and adolescents 16 and younger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Rahm Emanuel accused big tech of prioritizing profits over protecting kids. Meta, for one, says that Australia's law will make kids less safe, isolating them from information and from their community. I'm going to start with you, Congressman, because I know you have -- you have a young one or two or --
MOSKOWITZ: Two.
PHILLIP: Two. What do you think?
MOSKOWITZ: So, I don't know if a ban would work, but I definitely think we have to do something with Section 230. Do you know the number one game right now that kids are playing in that nine to 12 Democrat?
PHILLIP: Roadblocks?
MOSKOWITZ: Roadblocks. Know what the name of the game on Roblox is called? This is the name of the game. It's called brain rot. Like, they are not even trying to hide. OK. That's literally the name of the game. It is so addictive. The thing parents fighting with their kids most about is screen time. It's the number one thing they are fighting with their kids with in screen time.
And so, look, I don't know if bands are the way to go. We don't really absorb bands in this country well, but I do think there has to be age limitations. I do think that is appropriate. And I do think Congress has to re-look at Section 230.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MOSKOWITZ: This idea that a law we wrote in the 90s is being applied to the technology now. A.I. wants to be included in Section 230 and have complete immunity.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MOSKOWITZ: There has to be some responsibility on these --
PHILLIP: I don't think that's going to happen.
JONES: (INAUDIBLE) the idea that the companies are not responsible for what happens.
MOSKOWITZ: Correct, completely immune. Completely immune.
PHILLIP: They're not publications.
MOSKOWITZ: And listen, this is going to be similar to the tobacco companies, in that you are going to see evidence and reports coming out that they're specifically engineering material for kids, knowing it's going to be --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: That's already -- that is already out there.
MOSKOWITZ: Yes, yes.
[07:45:01]
PHILLIP: We already know that, because of people, whistleblowers who have come out and said they know this stuff is addictive, it is designed to do that.
MOSKOWITZ: It's digital fentanyl.
PHILLIP: But to your point about the -- about the bans and how they do or don't work. So, in Australia, within 24 hours, the kids were back. Many of them made new accounts. They were borrowing the faces of their parents and older friends who were happy to help them evade the age detection technology."
I mean, I think, I would have, if I were the Australians, I would have said, whoever -- if you are already on it, you are already on it, but no new accounts. If you are coming onto the platform, you cannot come onto the platform as a teen. That seems to make more sense.
MOORE: I agree with everything you said. The question is sort of, who should regulate this? I mean, there is no question. We have an addiction to these games that is very, very pervasive and perverse.
Should it be the parents or should it be the schools? I don't know. I'm asking that question, but there is an issue about can't -- you know, should this thing be allowed in the classroom? Well, it can be used as an educational tool. I mean, it could just like a laptop could be.
So, I guess I probably fall in the direction of, let's put some limitations on this, but parents have to take charge of their own kid's behavior as well.
(CROSSTALK)
MOSKOWITZ: No, no, listen, I'm super involved in that. I try to limit screen time. MOORE: Yes.
PHILLIP: Yes.
MOSKOWITZ: That when they have phones to take to school for security, I take them when they get home. I limit their screen time during the week. They are only allowed to do the stuff in front of me. But I can tell you, it is extremely challenging. And while I know regulate, everyone is scared of regulation.
We did -- and I'm all for parents' rights, but we didn't say to parents, look, if you want your kids to smoke, you make that decision.
JONES: Well, I think a complicating factor in this is that we are asking adults who are addicted to these things, to then, tell children to not do this because it is addictive. Which, by the way, like if you got an iron lung, you have make a very compelling argument as to why it is that your kids should not smoke, right?
Like you can make that happen. The problem is, I think most people don't recognize the depths of where we are totally as a society with this. And I think a lot of people really view it as cruel to not allow their kids to participate in this online economy, because they would find it themselves to be cruel.
They don't know what to do if they don't have this thing in their hand. And look, I'm susceptible, as anybody else is. But I think that's the part that makes it hard not to send the message to the kids, from the standpoint that they won't believe it. But I think a lot of parents don't want to do it because they think that they are inflicting something upon their kids by asking them to do this.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: I am -- I am addicted too. I will admit it, I am addicted to it too.
MOYNIHAN: I also think, I mean, one of the challenges is that parents, if they limit their own child, that child may be in a class with everyone else who also has social media.
MOSKOWITZ: Yes.
JAMES: Yes, jump off the bridge argument.
MOYNIHAN: So, I think this could potentially -- this could potentially set a new standard, though, where slowly but surely, maybe the expectation is that no one has social media.
PHILLIP: Look, I think -- I think yes, there is parents, but I think schools. I think schools actually need to be the place where they decide what the policy is, just like how you know, you can't wear clothes of a certain length or whatever in what -- they can make whatever policy they want. They should be able to make policies about phones and enforce them. And look, there are plenty of kids who have parents who don't have the capacity to regulate this stuff, and they shouldn't be thrown under the bridge just because their parents, you know, don't care.
MOSKOWITZ: It's really hard for young girls on Instagram, Snapchat. I mean, I see it with my -- I have two boys. I see it with their friends. The pressure on girls and the cyber bullying goes, it really -- it's really hard.
PHILLIP: It's awful. All right. Next for us, the panel's unpopular opinions, but they are not afraid to say out loud. But first, a programming note, Roy Wood Jr. hosts a holiday special for the whole family with music from the United States Air Force band and Jesse James Decker, comedy from Roy, Craig Robinson and so much more.
[07:48:39]
Roy Wood Jr.'s very, very merry holiday special, Sunday at 8:00 p.m. on CNN and on the CNN app.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: We are back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. You each have 30 seconds to tell us yours. Congressman, you're up first.
MOSKOWITZ: Well, you know, as Gandhi said, freedom is not worth having if you don't have the freedom to make mistakes. We should not have freed Britney. That was a total mistake. OK. I mean, she is dancing with knives, like she said Benihana, like putting this stuff on Instagram.
OK, I'm not saying her dad was a great person. I'm just saying the free Britney movement probably was a mistake.
PHILLIP: (INAUDIBLE).
MOORE: One of the biggest, most threatening trend in America is that young people are not getting married, and they are not having children, and we are now facing really catastrophically low birth rates in this country. It's a bad thing. So, guys, get out there, get your girl, get married and have kids.
PHILLIP: Yes, reproduce.
JONES: You got me a little late. I'm 45 and say, anyway -- it is --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Not too late. Not too late.
JONES: It is Christmas time, it is movie time. I get us to our age-old question is "Die Hard" a Christmas movie? And the first two, by the way, "Die Hard 2", to also with a Christmas theme.
MOORE: Yes. JONES: Just want to make the point. My idea of Christmas doesn't involve 20 people getting killed. Like that is the joy of "Die Hard" is watching people get thrown off of buildings, which is not exactly (INAUDIBLE).
MOORE: Thought that was a great movie.
JONES: I didn't say it wasn't a great, just saying it's not Christmas.
PHILLIP: If it's not a movie you can watch with the whole family. I don't know. I don't know. Go ahead.
MOYNIHAN: I think that Thanksgiving is a better holiday than Christmas. I think there is so much pressure. I love the Christmas spirit, the holiday season, the Nutcracker, the music, but like, Christmas is always kind of a letdown, and there is so much pressure.
[07:55:03]
PHILLIP: Stressful. Stressful.
MOYNIHAN: I just like Thanksgiving, like it's all about eating and relaxing. (INAUDIBLE).
PHILLIP: No expectations.
MOSKOWITZ: I don't know, I'm Jewish. I like Christmas better than Thanksgiving.
JONES: Thanksgiving, these music -- have no songs.
PHILLIP: It doesn't have any --
MOSKOWITZ: OK. By the way, that could be it. That's it.
PHILLIP: But the thing about Thanksgiving is that you can play the Christmas music.
MOYNIHAN: Yes.
PHILLIP: You just don't have to give anybody gifts. You just show up and eat food.
MOSKOWITZ: I don't know. I think Santa's men.
PHILLIP: Look, I'm with (INAUDIBLE)
JONES: I just learned a lot about Thanksgiving at your house. You just show up and eat food.
PHILLIP: I cook. I do cook.
But I'm saying, if you want to show up and eat food, you could do that. All right, everybody. Thank you very much. Thanks for watching TABLE FOR FIVE. You can catch me every week night at 10:00 p.m. Eastern with our news night round table and anytime on your favorite social media, X, Instagram and on TikTok.
In the meantime, though, CNN's coverage continues right now.
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