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The Situation Room
George Zimmerman Murder Trial
Aired July 05, 2013 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know why. I don't know. Send someone quick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does he look hurt yet?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: i can't see. I don't want to go out there. I don't know what's going on.
(INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think he's yelling help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you able to hear that voice?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the background?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: you heard of course a woman's voice in the foreground, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know whose voice that was screaming in the background?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And whose voice was that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son, George.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And are you certain of that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because he's my son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time no other questions of this witness, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you very much. Cross?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good afternoon, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good afternoon, Mr. De La Rionda.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mrs. Zimmerman, you have heard him yelling out for help or crime or have you heard him just laughing and screaming?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of the above. All.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn't it true you've never heard him yelling or crying for help, yelling for help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not for help. Not in that distinction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I may.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've never heard him screaming for his life before, have you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But regarding --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll rephrase it. Have you ever heard him screaming for his life before this call?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I'm sure is that is George's voice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The scream is -- I haven't heard him like that before, but the anguish that the scream that he is -- the way that he is screaming, it describes to me anguish, fear, I would say terror.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And is that the anguish, fear and terror without question of your son's voice?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mrs. Zimmerman -- I'm sorry. Are you finished with your answer?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: May Mrs. Zimmerman be excused?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Subject to being recalled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we will maintain her under subpoena.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Mrs. Zimmerman, you're excused from the courtroom, but you may be re-called back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Call your next witness, please.
(WITNESS SWORN)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good afternoon. You may proceed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, your honor. Good afternoon, sir.
JORGE MEZA, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S UNCLE: Good afternoon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State your name, please.
MEZA: My name is Jorge Meza (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And your occupation.
MEZA: I'm a deputy sheriff with the Orange County sheriff's office assigned to the courthouse division.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, how long you have been in that position?
MEZA: I've been in that position since September 2007.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consistent from that time through today?
MEZA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And before 2007, what type of work did you do?
MEZA: I was previously assigned to the courthouse service division between May of 2000 until August of 2003. Before that, I was in the army. I served our nation for 26 years. I retired of the army with the rank of command sergeant major. And I felt that it was my duty to serve my community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And is that why you began service with the Orange County sheriff's office?
MEZA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in fact, if you weren't on the witness stand and we were maybe a county over, you might be sitting there or standing in the back.
MEZA: Very correct. That would be my duty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the type of work that you do?
MEZA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, I presume that you've sat through more trials than probably anybody else in the courtroom, except for these two individuals, correct?
MEZA: I have had my share.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. We bring you here today, though, not in your capacity as a deputy, but you're here because you know George Zimmerman, is that correct?
MEZA: That is absolutely correct. I am here as an uncle to George Zimmerman, not as a deputy of the Orange County sheriff's office.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, then, how long have you known George Zimmerman?
MEZA: I have known George Zimmerman since October the 5th, 1983, the day he was born.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Were you in the -- you're still back in the army then, correct?
MEZA: Yes, sir. I was station -- at that time, I was stationed in Puerto Rico with a temporary assignment in Atlanta, Georgia. When the news arrived that my sister was actually having labor pains and I was in transit when I was checked into hotel in Atlanta, Georgia is when I got the news that my nephew has been born.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, I was going to ask the connect, but I think you just told us in your story and that is that you are -- you're Gladys Zimmerman's brother?
MEZA: Yes, I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how many other siblings do you and she have?
MEZA: She has her older son Robert, Robert, Jr., and then she has my niece grace Christine. Christina.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you and she have any siblings, you and Gladys have any siblings?
MEZA: My brother Mike, Miguel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're here today because I wanted to ask you if you've ever had an opportunity to listen to a 911 call that had certain voices in the foreground and then a screaming voice in the background?
MEZA: Yes, sir, I did. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I'd like to you do if you would is to tell the jury the first time and the circumstances that you had heard that call.
MEZA: The exact date I don't remember. It was sometime in March of 2012. I am sitting at my computer at home involved to be exact I cannot recall, but I was on the computer. And all of a sudden, the TV in my house is located right behind if I could, I show you, this is my desk and right behind me is my television.
When I'm actually working the computer, my wife is watching the news. All what I did heard was the scream, the scream that it came immediately not only I just heard the scream, I felt the scream like my nephew is screaming for his life. It was a moment that I actually lived with me every moment that I heard the portion of that because it was, you know, the feeling of saying, oh, I heard Giorgi.
It was George screaming for his life. I looked to my wife and I said what are you watching? And she says I'm watching the news. I said but what is the news about? She says they're playing the record of the 911 call pertaining to the person screaming. I said that is George and I stood up and look at the TV and I just didn't see anything else but it was just the recording playing at that time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This wasn't a situation where somebody played it for you to ask you to identify the voice?
MEZA: No, sir. It was not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this just coincidental that it happened to come on TV?
MEZA: No, sir. It was not even coincidental. Like I said, I was just working on the computer doing exactly I cannot really tell you what I was doing, but I was in the computer. And that voice just came and hit me. It hit me the way that I heard that but more than heard that, I felt it inside of my heart. I say that is George.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you even know that the TV was addressing your nephew's case?
MEZA: No, I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did your wife tell you anything about the fact that it was on TV?
MEZA: Matter of fact, she did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then -- and I think you mentioned it, what was the very first thing that brought your attention to the TV?
MEZA: His voice. His voice. The reason why I recognize his voice is very simple. I have had George play with my sons, my own sons. There is a unique way that you recognize your family members when they laugh or when they cry, and this was the moment that I recognized George as screaming for help. It was George screaming for help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May I have a moment, your honor. Thank you, your honor. No further questions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Cross?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good afternoon, sir.
MEZA: Good afternoon, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just so the record is clear, you're not here speaking as a deputy sheriff, correct?
MEZA: No, sir, I am not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So, the jury should just disregard when you were bringing about your qualifications, which are awesome --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May I object, your honor, to the suggestion that the jury should disregard --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's the legal basis for your objection?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Improper questioning of the witness. I just -- I'd rather do it at the bench --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me do it this way. The court is going to instruct you at the end of all the evidence of what the instructions are on the law that you're to follow. So, I'm going to hope that you will follow those instructions. I'm going to instruct you to follow those instructions. I'm going to sustain the objection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll rephrase it. You're not hear testifying as a deputy sheriff of Orange County sheriff --
MEZA: No, sir, I'm not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're testifying as George Zimmerman's uncle.
MEZA: I am here as a witness of what I've heard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you're here on behalf of George Zimmerman because he is your nephew. In other words, that's the relationship, not because you're a deputy sheriff is what I'm trying to get.
MEZA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And you were aware prior to hearing this on TV, the recording, you were aware that your son was involved in the shooting. You didn't know the facts but you were aware of it, correct?
MEZA: You mean my nephew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I apologize. I said your son. I apologize. Your nephew, George Zimmerman.
MEZA: Yes, sir, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So, you were aware of that?
MEZA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you're telling this jury is that you didn't know any of the specific facts, correct?
MEZA: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was on purpose because you're a deputy sheriff in Orange County.
MEZA: I am a sworn deputy law enforcement officer. If I actually would have known any facts, details information provided to me, it would be against my ethics and professionalism to get involved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. So, you on purpose kept out of it is what I'm trying to get at.
MEZA: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was on purpose?
MEZA: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. But you knew that he was involved in the shooting, you just didn't know the specifics?
MEZA: I didn't know the specifics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And you're saying is you heard this on TV. It was the news, I believe, correct?
MEZA: That is correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And i think you stated your wife was watching the news.
MEZA: That is correct, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then when you saw it, after hearing it, you saw there was something on about the George Zimmerman case, right, on the news itself when you saw it? Correct?
MEZA: Before i saw what I saw, I heard the scream.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
MEZA: And that's when I got up and says that is George, what are you watching?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. And then when you saw the TV screen, it did have the name George Zimmerman on there, correct? MEZA: That is correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And I believe you stated you had heard him before playing with your son, correct?
MEZA: That is correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Him being George Zimmerman. I apologize.
MEZA: I understand. Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. But you had never heard George Zimmerman crying out for help before, had you?
MEZA: Not the way I did that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Thank you very much, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any redirect?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Briefly on some of the issues addressed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously you're not here as a deputy. Do you take your oath to tell the truth seriously?
MEZA: I took my oath on 31 May 2000. I am the class of the millennium. And up to this day, I stand for my oath to the law of the state of Florida.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you would not color your testimony to favor your nephew, would you?
MEZA: My ethics of professionalism is stated with the 26 years I stayed in the army, achieving the command sergeant major and I would never compromise myself to do that either for my son, my daughter, or my nephew.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So much so that you decided to maintain that oath to just keep away from the facts of the case, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
MEZA: That is correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry, what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leading.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll acknowledge that it's leading. It's just that it had just been testified to, but I'll rephrase it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why was it that you decided not to find out more about the facts of what your nephew was going through? MEZA: As a law enforcement officer, you are sworn to actually tell the truth. I don't know when this moment was going to arrive that I was going to be sitting here and I wanted to be able to look at every one members of the jurors and tell them the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, your honor. Nothing further.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, if I understand you correctly, Mr. Meza, you're saying that you anticipated that you would you be hearing this reporting and you were going to have to come and court and testify about it?
MEZA: No, sir. You misunderstood what I said. What I said is as a law enforcement officer, the moment that I found out of the situation that arise, I disconnected myself totally from it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You disconnected yourself totally from the case. You didn't want to find out anything about it?
MEZA: No, sir, I didn't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. May Mr. Meza be excused?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Thank you, sir. You're excuse from the courtroom, but you're subject to being recalled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Call your next witness, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May we approach, your honor?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you may.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Brianna Keilar in for Wolf Blitzer. You are in the SITUATION ROOM, and we're continuing our coverage right now of the George Zimmerman case. Let's get now to our legal analysts, Sunny Hostin and Mark Nejame. They're in Sanford, Florida. And I just want to point out, we just heard the defense called its first two witnesses, that being the mother of George Zimmerman as well as the uncle right there, Jorge Meza, of George Zimmerman.
So, Sunny and Mark, first, let's start with the uncle. What did you think of his testimony there? Did you think that the jury will find him believable that he thought this was George's voice screaming on this 911 tape?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I thought he was a very credible witness in the sense that he's a law enforcement officer. He spoke clearly with conviction, although, I do think that the circumstances surrounding what he is testifying to just seem a bit odd that you would be watching, you know, on your computer and you hear a scream somewhere in your home and you identify that scream immediately as that of not even your son but your nephew.
I'm not sure if that -- those circumstances are believable, but I thought that his testimony -- through his testimony, he came off as a credible witness.
MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. And I concur with that. I think that it kind of stretches the credibility that, all of a sudden, you hear this scream out of the clear blue sky and you recognize that as a family member. But, on the other hand, he presented very, very well. So, the story line doesn't make sense, but the way he presented does.
I think at the end of the day, you know, a lot of the defense strategy here is simply going to be to neutralize both sides' position that they could recognize that scream and we've had a host of experts saying that they in fact couldn't. So, I think at the end of the day, we almost have a wash there and they're going to have to go on other evidence on both sides to see where this thing goes.
KEILAR: And we heard earlier today from Trayvon Martin's mother and brother that they were both convinced that it was Trayvon Martin's voice screaming on that 911 tape. Sunny and Mark, stand by for us. They're in Sanford, Florida. We'll be right back with you. We're going to get in a quick commercial break while we see the counsel there up at the bench. We'll be right back with more on the Zimmerman trial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Court has now recessed for the weekend in the George Zimmerman trial after the prosecution rested and the defense called its first two witnesses in the case. So, again, court recessing for the weekend. This will pick up again on Monday with the defense continuing to present its case and its witnesses.
Let's bring in our experts, Mark Nejame, a criminal defense lawyer, and Sunny Hostin, CNNs legal analyst and a former federal prosecutor. So, we first heard, and I should also mention, pardon me, Cyril Wecht, a forensic pathologist, because we'll also be talking a lot about some of the testimony that we heard from the deputy medical examiner who did perform the final autopsy on Trayvon Martin's 's body after he died.
But first to you, Mark, the first witnesses that we saw here presented by the defense, the first one was Gladys Zimmerman, the mother of George Zimmerman. And she said, as we've heard certainly from the mother of Trayvon Martin, she said it was her son whose voice she heard on the 911 tape.
Do you think that this -- you said that you think this is just to neutralize the other side in this case since we haven't -- it wasn't allowed in court to have experts testify on whose voice was on the tape.
NEJAME: I believe each of the mothers absolutely believes that that's their son's voice who they're hearing. I think that they both would pass a lie detector test and I believe that they both believe it. With that said, you know, they both have their sons who they're loving -- and you know, Trayvon's no longer with us and his mother absolutely believes that he was murdered and George Zimmerman's mother absolutely believes that he's not guilty.
So, they're going to believe what they want to believe. And so, I think at the end of the day, there's going to be a hard time for anybody to truly ascertain whose voice that was. And I do think that as in all criminal case, that when you have a draw, it usually sides to the defense simply because it's the state's burden.
But I found that all the witnesses were credible. I think that they all came across good. But I think that at the end of the day, it's a swearing contest and they have different opinions.
KEILAR: Do you think the jury, Sunny, takes anything away from this or they just discount both sides?
HOSTIN: You know, I think that it could be a wash. I agree with Mark on that. The one thing again is that I think when you listen to testimony and I know that jurors do this, they listen to it in context, not just in little pieces. And what is troubling for the defense, I think, is that when the shot rings out, the screams stop.
Now, that's a very common sense analysis. If the person who was screaming is shot, then the screaming stops rather than if the person who was screaming was still alive, perhaps, you would still hear some sort of scream for help.
And so, I wonder if the jury then takes that back into the jury room, takes their common sense with them and thinks, well, you know what, perhaps it was Trayvon Martin because the screams were silenced suddenly by the gunshot. So, that's the only place where I think the prosecution, perhaps, has a leg up on the screaming debate.
KEILAR: Sunny and Mark, we'll be right back with you and we'll also bring in our forensic pathologist, Cyril Wecht because we will be talking ahead about some other testimony that we saw today in the Zimmerman trial where we heard from the man who performed the autopsy on Trayvon Martin's body after he died. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: We have just wrapped up what has to be the most dramatic day yet in the George Zimmerman murder trial. All of this comes after a day of major surprises. The biggest came from the medical examiner who did the autopsy on Trayvon Martin's body. Dr. Shiping Bao (ph) revealed that he doesn't remember anything about the actual autopsy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SHIPING BAO, PERFORMED TRAYVON MARTIN'S AUTOPSY: I do not remember anything, zero.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
BAO: Anything on the day of the autopsy. I depend on my notes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: That isn't all. It also came out that the notes the medical examiner relied on today were notes that he, himself, wrote out months ago, not the official autopsy report. And before that came out, Dr. Bao showed jurors photos from the autopsy. He described what happened after Trayvon Martin was shot and the bullet literally went through his heart.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAO: I believe, it is my opinion, that he was still alive, he was still in pain, he was still in suffering. I believe he was alive for one to ten minutes after he was shot. His heart was beating until there was no blood left. At the point, his heart stopped and he is complete silent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: We have a lot to talk over with our analysts, former federal prosecutor, Sunny Hostin, defense attorney, Mark Nejame are at the court house in Sanford, Florida. And joining us from Boca Raton is Cyril Wecht. He is a forensic pathologist, attorney, and medical legal consultant.
So, Cyril, I want to start with you, because that moment where Dr. Bao says he remembers nothing, zero, and relied completely on his notes, not actually any recall of any real memory from doing the autopsy, I think to the lay person that sounds pretty strange. Is that unusual for a medical examiner, for someone performing an autopsy?
CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: No. Depending on how many autopsies you do. It's not unusual not to remember details of an autopsy you perform a year and a half ago, unless, it was something special. I don't know to what extent at the time that Dr. Bao performed the autopsy he was aware that this was going to be a cause celebre, but if it was a routine shooting, then I can understand and accept that he might not remember anything.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Cyril, let me ask you this real quick, because I do think that is a really good point. It would be hard to recall something a year and a half later. But this was a case that gained a lot of national attention pretty soon after Trayvon Martin died. I mean, you would imagine that Dr. Bao realized that he had performed an autopsy, be it a week or two weeks before, on a young man who was now getting so much attention.
I mean, if you were in his case, wouldn't you recall things from the actual autopsy?
WECHT: Yes, I agree with you. And that's why I said that I would like to know when he became aware of the significance, the great controversy, the universal excitement about this case. And so I do find it hard to understand that he now testifies that he has absolutely no memory.
What I find more difficult to comprehend and accept on his part and indeed on the part of the prosecution, their witness, that he comes in and says that he's testifying based upon notes that he wrote sometime later, months later as I understand it. Questions that he anticipated, answers that he was preparing to give. Where was the postmortem protocol, the original autopsy report, the official report that was in the hands of the prosecution attorney, the defense attorney.
Where were his notes made at the time of the autopsy? Those are the notes that you can refer to, the autopsy report you can refer to. So you can say that you don't remember and then of course as you know you then refer to your official report and any notes that you made at the time. I do not understand how the prosecution would have allowed him to come in and talk about writing notes months later in which he anticipated questions and suggested to himself what the answers might be.
It's -- it's unbelievable. I've never heard of anything like this, I must tell you.
KEILAR: That is something certainly that caught a lot of folks' attention as they watched this trial.
Cyril, I want to ask you in just a moment about also Dr. Bao's revised assessment of how long Trayvon Martin may have been alive. But first I want to ask Sunny and Mark what they thought about Dr. Bao's use of his personal notes.
It really seemed, guys, that he was surprised when the judge said, you know, we're going to need those notes. They need to be distributed to the defense and the prosecution. This was a prosecution witness but in a way it seemed, and correct me I'm wrong, doing the defense a bit of a favor.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, look, as a prosecutor, you get the witnesses that you get. I'm sure they wanted some sort of world renowned or they wished for some sort of world renowned medical examiner but this is the medical examiner that conducted the autopsy. And so that's who they were stuck with.
And I will say, he seemed like he started out OK. I was in the courtroom for his testimony. He seemed kind of charming, he seemed very kind of methodical. But during his testimony, he fell apart in my view. I mean he became somewhat of a loose cannon. He testified that he had testified about 20 times before but what -- by typing up these notes that he had never given anyone, that's such a novice move that it was -- it was shocking to me. I don't think I've ever seen it in a courtroom. Witnesses are usually advised not to do that. So I just -- I don't think that anyone could control this witness. The prosecution couldn't do it, the defense couldn't do it, even the judge couldn't do it.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Do you think --
HOSTIN: So this is --
KEILAR: I mean, part of that -- part of that might be as well preparations as well, Mark.
HOSTIN: It's an anomaly.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Do you think that he wasn't prepped properly?
MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
KEILAR: Does that -- does that sort of speak to that perhaps?
NEJAME: Yes, I think you've got extremely experienced prosecutors who are doing an excellent job in my opinion as far as taking a difficult case and making a case for it. But with that said, I've had it happen. I've had it happen on a handful of occasions, where somebody had been cross-examining and all of a sudden they referenced something and I -- as soon as they do that, first thing out of my mouth is, let me see your file please. And without exception every time the judges granted me the right to go through it. Because they're not prepared.
And I think what's happened here, you've got an experienced prosecutors who presumed that this M.E., this assistant M.E. knew the rules of the game. And they did not question him about that and it just tells you how you can never prepare too much in a case. As lawyers, as trial lawyers, we have to always anticipate everything and you just can't take it for granted.
And I suspect they were focusing on other things. Don't forget, the prosecution brought in an M.E. from their home county, Duvall County. They were really focusing on the distance of the shot and a few things like that and they were likely saving the best to the last, what they thought was.
We all thought that they were going to have his mother, they were going to have his brother on the stand for emotional, and then it turned out they were going to do the M.E. for the pictures, the horrible pictures of Trayvon being dead and the autopsy. And it turned out that that M.E. blew up in their face and they ended on the weakest of all possible notes when they were attempting to close their case. KEILAR: Certainly it did -- it did appear to be that way.
Mark, Sunny, Cyril, we will be right back with you as we analyze this day in the George Zimmerman trial. But we are expecting a new conference from one of the defense attorneys in this trial, one of George Zimmerman's lawyers. We will bring that to you live.
And later today's most heart-wrenching moments of the trial. We will hear from the mothers of both George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: It may have been the most gripping moment yet since the Zimmerman murder trial began. Jurors hearing for the first time today from the mothers of both George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin. Both women said the voice screaming for help on the 911 recordings made the night of the shooting was their son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Ma'am, that screaming or yelling, do you recognize that?
SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN'S MOTHER: Yes.
DE LA RIONDA: And who do you recognize that to be, ma'am?
FULTON: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
MARK O'MARA, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Were you able to hear that voice?
GLADYS ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S MOTHER: Yes, sir.
O'MARA: In the background?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
O'MARA: You heard of course a woman's voice in the foreground, correct?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes.
O'MARA: Do you know whose voice that was screaming in the background?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
O'MARA: And whose voice was that?
ZIMMERMAN: My son George.
O'MARA: And are you certain of that?
ZIMMERMAN: Because he's my son. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Joining us now to talk more about this powerful, emotional testimony, two of our CNN legal analysts, former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin and criminal defense attorney Mark Nejame, there outside of the courthouse.
Sunny, to you first, who did you think was more convincing here?
HOSTIN: You know, again, I thought that both sides were convincing and in that sense I think it's a wash. But I think when you look at the context of both sides, you know, a mother I think recognizing her son's voice is a bit more significant than an uncle. I think a brother recognizing a son's voice is a bit more -- his brother's voice is a bit more convincing and significant than an uncle.
And I also think you've got to listen to it in context, which is what the jury is going to be asked to do. The jury is going to be asked to look at not just one puzzle piece but the entire picture of the puzzle and when the screams are silenced after the shot, I think that that fact inures to the benefit of the prosecution because that's a commonsense thing and this jury will be instructed to take their common sense and apply it to the facts.
So I think there are -- there are arguments for both sides but I think those arguments inure to the benefit of the state.
KEILAR: And, Mark, as I was watching Trayvon Martin's mother's testimony, Sybrina Fulton, on the stand, and then you saw Dr. Bao testify which obviously was not as successful for the prosecution. Do you think that they should have put his mother on the stand last? I mean she, in a way, I watched as the defense tried to kind of paint her into a corner saying, you know, if you -- if this were George Zimmerman's voice you would obviously have to come to a different conclusion and she didn't bite. She was very convincing.
NEJAME: Yes, I absolutely thought that's what was going to happen. And I -- but I actually think that his brother would have been the best final witness. I think that his brother was a handsome, articulate, educated young man, and I think that he really came across as putting a life back to Trayvon, which would have been very beneficial to the prosecution because now you're not dealing with this young man in the abstract but here is his living, breathing brother who presented very, very well. And I think that's something the jury could well empathize with.
KEILAR: Yes.
NEJAME: And I think that -- I think that their strategy was very simply that they would get the emotion of that, then they would have the M.E. come in with these, you know, autopsy pictures, which are just what they are and that's -- the pictures of a cut-up, dead teenager who is the purported victim in this case. And that was going to really grab the jurors. And unfortunately for the state, this final M.E. really -- you know, the mother's testimony could have been long forgotten after you had such a long, convoluted bit of a mess of an M.E. who was testifying and I think they really lost their impact and their power with that.
HOSTIN: And you know, just to piggy-back on that, what was interesting to me is -- you know, I was in the courtroom, the jury certainly was watching Sybrina Fulton. Everyone was looking at her. But when Javaris Fulton, Trayvon's brother, got on the stand, I felt that they watched more and that is because after Rachel Jeantel's testimony of the language that Trayvon Martin used, you know, that could have painted a picture of someone that is a street type of person, a thug.
But in direct contrast you have this very well spoken, very lovely, very elegant young man get on the witness stand, talking about the fact that he is going to be a senior in college, he's studying information technology. That was very powerful and I did notice a change in the jury and the way that they reacted to him.
NEJAME: And if I might for a moment, I concur with that because remember, you know, Miss Jeantel, whatever, whatever our thoughts are about it, is there was a lot of halo effect that can often inure to one witness or another. And I think, you know, was Miss Jeantel somebody that the jurors could relate to and did they think that maybe because she was friends with Trayvon that that's maybe what Trayvon was about.
And could they relate to that? Was there that measure of sympathy or empathy there? And I think with his brother it shows, wait, look at -- look at Trayvon's family, look at how his mother presents, very elegant, very articulate, very much the matriarch. And then take a look at his brother, you know, just a son that everybody would be proud to have, at least that's what he -- what he came across.
And that's powerful. That's empathy. That's where you grab your jurors. And I think that, unfortunately for the state, they just did not expect this complete anomaly that occur, with this M.E. which is rather routine. I mean, they were going for certain points, and there are certain areas on cross-examination. But it just imploded on them.
KEILAR: But, Mark, real -- Mark, and Sunny, really quickly before we get in a quick break here, wasn't there also a problem in a way created by Javaris Fulton, Trayvon Martin's brother's testimony because it was brought up that he had said in March of 2012 that he thought it might be his brother's voice but he wasn't completely sure. And here he is at the trial saying that he's positive.
I mean, doesn't that kind of create some doubt? Actually, guys, just a moment, stand by for me. Mark O'Mara, the head defense attorney for George Zimmerman, is holding a press conference.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To have them go on the same day as the Martin family does (INAUDIBLE)? O'MARA: I wasn't sure how and when the state was going to end their case. I sort of had mine planned out a little bit. It's always, you know, somewhat fluid according to how things going and how the individual witnesses do. But, you know, I'm happy with the way it worked.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
O'MARA: Got two witnesses down. That's OK, too.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mark, Robert was the most articulate, why wasn't he here this week?
O'MARA: Why wasn't he here this week? Or why wasn't he on the stand or --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why wasn't he in court? (INAUDIBLE)
O'MARA: We'll probably bring him in when the timing is right for him as a witness.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What is your opinion on the judge's denial on the judgment for acquittal?
O'MARA: JOAs are -- you know, particular unique animal in the way that they're handled because you literally have to look at it and say, look at everything that's out there, and weighing it all toward the state side. They get every benefit of every doubt at this state -- at this stage. I respect her ruling. You know, it is what it is. This is what we do.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How much weight do you believe that the jury will give both grieving mothers regarding their respective testimony that this was their son on the 911 audio?
O'MARA: I think they will look at both and say that is certainly what that mom hopes happened.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
O'MARA: You know, I think so. I mean, I'm sure that Miss Fulton has to live her reality with that being Trayvon Martin screaming and I'm certain that Mrs. Zimmerman has to live her reality with that was definitely George Zimmerman screaming. And we have to be -- we have to treat them as the grieving parents they are in different ways. And I'm not going to go behind why they said what they said.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How long will your case last?
O'MARA: You know, this is a non-answer but a few days. But, you know, Wednesday, Thursday, could go more according to some rulings that the court still has to make regarding admissibility of certain evidence. But I'm enjoying myself so we'll go as long as we need to.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When you guys asked for more time to prepare, are you prepared now? Why weren't you prepared then?
O'MARA: Wednesday we asked for more time to prepare. I think that was because of some depositions that's still weren't done. There are four -- three or four more depositions we still have to take. So that just time -- it takes time. We're here nine hours a day. And I leave here and then go get ready for the next day. It doesn't give a lot of time for two or three or four-hour depositions. I think that's why we had asked for the additional time.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
O'MARA: No, he's not done yet.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What are your thoughts (INAUDIBLE)
O'MARA: You know, I think he is sort of a very literal person. I mean, if you ask him, is it a nice day out, I don't know if he'll want to give you his opinion. Nice is an interpretation. If you ask him if this is wood, he'll probably say yes. I'm OK with that's just his personality style. It's OK. We'll have other experts dealing with those issues so we'll work through it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What do you make of the notes he had in front of him?
O'MARA: I don't think that English is his first language so I think he wants to make sure that his presentation is good. I know that he's walking into a situation where we're litigators and he's a scientist. So I think that if I was going into surgery, I'd probably have a book of notes in front of me.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And you as well have been asked more than a few times. Will the defendant take the stand?
O'MARA: We haven't made that decision yet. I think I said I have to convince myself first that the state has proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt before I decide exactly how to handle that. So I'm still considering that. They seemed to be done now. We are going to start presenting our witnesses and we'll see if that includes George.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you believe they have proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt?
O'MARA: I don't think -- you know, this is the process of the trial. I never thought that there was a proper case against George Zimmerman. So, you know, they're putting on their case as prosecutors do. That's their job. And my job is to defend George and then the jury's job is to decide who did the better -- you know, whether or not the state proved their case. We'll get there.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
O'MARA: Yes, certainly do. Yes. A number of them.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mark, I think some people were surprised when you questioned Miss Fulton. Can you just tell us the reason behind that? Some people maybe thought you were too tough. Some people didn't expect you to say anything to her and just say thank you for your time.
O'MARA: I -- you know, I -- this is what I do. So every murder case I have, I've talked to the murdered person's mother or father or sister or brother. It's what we do. You learn to try to be sensitive to what they're going through and that with the reality that, like I said earlier, they're looking at this case and they can only live their lives with the belief that what happened to their son, Mrs. Zimmerman or Miss Fulton, was somehow somebody else's responsibility or fault.
And I'm not going to, you know, bear any burden against her for that. It's a sad situation. And every time I go and talk to someone like that, it's very difficult. However, having said that, I certainly had to question her about it and bring out the reality that I'm sure she walked into that room wanting to hear her son's voice.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think that her thinking behind that is how the jury is thinking? How worried that the fact you didn't get the judgment of acquittal also means the jury is thinking that maybe the prosecution did a good job?
O'MARA: They're completely different standards. In the judgment of acquittal standard, literally everything has to go in favor of the state. As we know in a criminal trial for the jury's consideration, they have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime occurred. They might not get it. They did it in the way that they have to prove it. And they also have to prove that my client did not act in self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So you have those --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were you surprised by anything that the state proved?
O'MARA: No, I wasn't surprised by what they put on. I was probably more surprised by what they didn't put on?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That would be?
O'MARA: Well, there were other family members in the Martin family that I would have imagined that they would have called. So that's -- that was a bit of a surprise to me. A lot of the law enforcement officers who had heavy involvement in the case was a surprise to me that they sort of excised that out of their case. So, again, they can call down the case to exactly what they want to do and only present what they want but I thought it was quite abbreviated with law enforcement, family members and, yes, probably those two areas.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So are you (INAUDIBLE)?
O'MARA: I'm working. Actually, I think two or three are this weekend. So, yes, we'll be just getting ready. I mean, this is what we do. You get ready. We're in the middle of trial. So I'm very good. We're just getting ready.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You seemed surprised when the judge (INAUDIBLE) Sybrina Fulton (INAUDIBLE)?
O'MARA: You know, it's funny because I think in most if not every one of my other cases where we deal with a decedent or someone who's been lost, or just seriously injured, I don't think that it's pandering to say that I'm sorry for your loss. It's -- I'm not going to be not human, and if happens to violate or somebody wants to object to me for being slightly inhuman to a mom who's lost a son, so be it. I'm not going to change my stripes because somebody else thinks that I'm pandering.
KEILAR: That is Mark O'Mara, the head attorney for the defense for George Zimmerman, who stands accused of second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin. Sounding pretty confident there, saying everything has to go in favor of the state, of the prosecution if a jury is going to convict. And it seems, certainly, by his body language that he seems to be feeling that there is some reasonable doubt there for his client, also saying this trial could wrap up next Wednesday or Thursday.
And when reporters there questioned him to see if George Zimmerman may take the stand, he didn't rule it out, he didn't say as well that it would happen.
And ahead, we will look at what both of Trayvon Martin's parents have done since their son's death and why it's generated so much controversy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: We are getting more of a glimpse into Trayvon Martin's past after hearing from his mother and older brother today on the stand. And our Brian Todd is taking a closer look at both of his parents and what their lives have been like in the months since their son's death.
Hi, Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brianna.
You know, Trayvon's mother gave crucial testimony today on that 911 tape. His parents have been two of the most controversial figures in this entire story since the shooting. So the mother's testimony today was one of the more highly anticipated moments.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): She had to listen to it one more excruciating time, a 911 call the night of her son's shooting death, a call in which screaming can be heard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you think he's yelling "help"?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your --
TODD: With lawyers on both sides needing to convince jurors who was screaming for help, Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman, Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, didn't waver.
DE LA RIONDA: And who do you recognize that to be, ma'am?
FULTON: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
TODD: That may or may not be proven, but legal analyst Paul Butler says Sybrina Fulton may have been the prosecution's most convincing witness.
PROF. PAUL BUTLER, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: She's looking at these all-women jurors and talking to them woman to woman, mother to mother. What she says is I know exactly what my son's voice sounds like, and that was Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
TODD: Fulton needed to be convincing. Martin's father, Tracy, initially told police the cries for help were not his son's then later said they were. Analysts say he'll likely not be called to the stand.
The parents' credibility in this case is increasingly under the microscope. When Trayvon Martin was killed in Sanford, Florida, the mother was presumed to be in Miami where she lives. Martin at that time was visiting his father and the father's girlfriend at her home in Sanford, but it's not clear where Trayvon's father was when the shooting took place, and he didn't report Trayvon missing until the next day.
The parents, who have been divorced since 1999, have presented a unified front in the build-up to this trial, appearing together at marches and rallies.
FULTON: My heart hurts for my son. Trayvon is my son. Trayvon is your son.
TODD: But although Sybrina Fulton is Trayvon Martin's biological mother, Alicia Stanley, Tracy Martin's second wife and Trayvon's stepmother, said this to CNN's Anderson Cooper.
ALICIA STANLEY, TRAYVON MARTIN'S STEPMOTHER: I'm the one that went to them football games. I'm the one -- was there when he was sick. I mean, every time he got sick, if he wasn't at our home, we had to go -- Tracy picked him up and brought him back to our home to make him better.
TODD: Still, together, analysts say, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, along with their lawyer, Benjamin Crump, have been essential in simply getting this case to trial.
NEJAME: I give them tremendous credit. Without their efforts, without them bringing on their legal team, this case would have never been heard of again.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: That's a reference to law enforcement authorities not arresting George Zimmerman for nearly a month and a half after the shooting and then being reluctant to press charges. Martin's parents and Crump certainly have been controversial, playing up themes of racial injustice, but by relentlessly pushing for justice for their son, they've gotten us to this moment in the trial which has been crucial -- Brianna.
KEILAR: Is there any scenario where Trayvon Martin's father, Mr. Martin, gets to the stand?
TODD: It's not likely. Analysts say they could possibly call him up there possibly to ask him why he didn't report Trayvon Martin missing until the next day. And one analyst said that that could be a way to trying to again damage Trayvon Martin to imply that it wasn't unusual for him to be up all night.
But another analyst said look, the bottom line is that's not relevant to showing whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. So they probably won't call him up. But if they do, get ready for that moment because that's going to be interesting.
KEILAR: All right. Brian Todd for us, thank you very much.
And THE SITUATION ROOM continues now with my colleague, John Berman -- John.
