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The Situation Room
Interview With Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT); Interview With Rep. Sean Patrick Maloney (D-NY); Text Messages Revealed in Trump Impeachment Investigation; Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) Just Released From Hospital, His Doctors Say He Had a Heart Attack; House Democrats Subpoena White House In Impeachment Probe. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired October 04, 2019 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:15]
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Happening now, breaking news: new House demands. As Democrats press for documents on the Ukraine scandal, they may hit the White House with a subpoena tonight. They're also turning up the heat on Vice President Mike Pence.
Ready for a standoff. The president is threatening to defy impeachment investigators unless their inquiry is approved by the full House. Tonight, Mr. Trump is trying to persuade Americans not to believe evidence against him that they can see with their own eyes and that came out of his own mouth.
With conditions. We're breaking down a series of damning text messages that show how the Trump administration pushed Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden, dangling the promise of a meeting with President Trump. CNN obtaining new information about crucial testimony.
And changing his story? A Trump appointee reportedly told a GOP senator that aid to Ukraine was tied to the president's push for investigations. Why did the diplomat later deny any quid pro quo?
We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BLITZER: We're following breaking news.
The White House could be hit with a new subpoena at any moment. Tonight is the deadline set by House impeachment investigators demanding information about the Ukraine scandal. And in a separate move, Democrats are asking Vice President Pence for documents related to his possible role in The push for Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden.
Also tonight, Mr. Trump is threatening to defy Congress and withhold documents , unless the full House formally votes on an impeachment inquiry. It's another day of rapid-fire developments as the intelligence community watchdog met with lawmakers behind closed doors and CNN obtained new details on testimony by the former U.S. envoy to Ukraine. This hour, I will talk to a key member of the House Intelligence
Committee, Democratic Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney.
And our correspondents, analysts and other guests are also standing by.
First, let's go to our congressional correspondent, Sunlen Serfaty. She's up on Capitol Hill.
Sunlen, impeachment investigators, they are ramping up their demands for information from the White House.
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf.
This is intensifying for the White House tonight very quickly. Tonight, the three very powerful House committees, Oversight, Intel and Foreign Affairs, they are readying to formally issue a subpoena of the White House, subpoena for documents related to the Ukraine controversy, related to that withholding of military aid.
And they have not, of course, been turned over yet, with a deadline set of today. Now, this also comes as those same powerful committees are focusing in now on Vice President Mike Pence, demanding documents today from him related to the Ukraine controversy, related to his meeting with Ukrainian president face to face last month in Poland, and what exactly he knew about that July 25 phone call between President Trump and the Ukrainian president.
So as Democrats continue to push forward in their impeachment inquiry, continue to push forward for investigative materials, information and documents, they are making it very clear that, if the White House continues stonewalling these requests, that that is going to factor into their potential articles of impeachment.
And Democrats see that as only strengthening their hand -- Wolf.
BLITZER: The intelligence community's inspector general, Sunlen, as you know, he appeared behind closed doors up on Capitol Hill today. What do you learning?
SERFATY: That's right.
And that was a very long testimony, about seven hours in length, where the ICIG met with lawmakers behind closed doors, just wrapping up here on the Hill in the last hour.
And the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, coming out in the last few minutes with a statement, saying, in part -- quote -- "While we cannot get into the substance, we explored with the I.G. through documents and testimony the reasons why he found the whistle-blower complaint to be both urgent and credible. Now that we have seen, all seen the call record, we can say that I.G.'s determination was correct in both respects."
And lawmakers coming out of that closed-door meeting, Wolf, telling us that Michael Atkinson really focused in on during his briefing how he specifically handled the whistle-blower's investigation, and specifically how he went about corroborating the whistle-blower's complaint, even handing over documents to back that up -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Sunlen, thanks very much.
As House Democrats make new demands of the White House tonight, President Trump is defiant.
Let's go to our chief White House correspondent, Jim Acosta.
Jim, the president says he's not sure if he will cooperate.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf.
President Trump threatened to fire off a letter today saying the White House will not cooperate with the Democrats in their inquiry until they hold a vote on that impeachment inquiry. We're still waiting to see that letter.
[18:05:03]
We understand it may come now as early as Monday. And there's a bit of an internal debate, we're told, going on behind the scenes as to whether or not they will actually issue that letter.
Now, as for this request for information from Vice President Mike Pence, his office has just responded with a statement saying it does not appear to be a serious request.
So, at this point, it appears both the White House and the vice president's office not really cooperating with either end of that investigation.
But President Trump was in damage control mode today, clearing -- trying to clear up his plea for help from China and Ukraine to dig up dirt on former Vice President Joe Biden. His performance today seemed aimed at fending off charges he's seeking the help of other countries to get him reelected.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA (voice-over): With mounting evidence he solicited foreign interference in the 2020 election, President Trump is changing his story, insisting he's now more interested in rooting out corruption than investigating former Vice President Joe Biden.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't care about Biden's campaign, but I do care about corruption. His campaign, that's up to him. Politics, that's up to them. I don't care about politics. And so we are looking at corruption. We're not looking at politics. We're looking at corruption.
ACOSTA: But that's not how the president laid it out the day before, when he directly called on Ukraine and China to dig up some Biden family dirt. TRUMP: It's a very simple answer. They should investigate the
Bidens. By the way, likewise, China should start an investigation into the Bidens, because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine.
ACOSTA: Now the president is claiming he never thought Biden would win the Democratic nomination.
TRUMP: I think he would be an easy opponent. But I never thought Biden was going to win. I don't care about politics. But I do care about corruption.
ACOSTA: And Mr. Trump could not answer whether he was seeking corruption probes in foreign countries that don't include Democratic candidates.
QUESTION: Have you asked foreign leaders for any corruption investigations that don't involve your political opponents?
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: We would have to look.
ACOSTA: So far, at least one Republican is not buying it, as Utah Senator Mitt Romney tweeted: "By all appearances, the president's brazen and unprecedented appeal to China and to Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden is wrong and appalling."
But Romney is mostly alone in the GOP. Florida Senator Marco Rubio tells CNN affiliate WFOR Mr. Trump is just trolling the media.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): I don't know if that's a real request or him just needling the press, knowing that you guys were going to get outraged by it. He's gotten -- he's pretty good at getting everybody fired up. And he's been doing that for a while. And the media responded right on -- right on -- right on task.
ACOSTA: That may explain why the president is confident the Republican-controlled Senate will hold its ground and keep Mr. Trump in office if House Democrats vote to impeach.
TRUMP: They have no choice. They have to follow their leader, Jeff. And then we will get it to the Senate, and we're going to win. The Republicans have been very unified.
ACOSTA: But the impeachment inquiry has found its way to congressional town halls. Iowa's Joni Ernst got an earful at one in her state.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is the line? When are you guys going to say, enough?
SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): Yes, good question. So...
ACOSTA (on camera): Aren't you breaking the law asking for foreign help? (voice-over): The president is also not answering whether he had violated the law. The chair of the Federal Election Commission says the laws clear: "It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election."
Mr. Trump appears to be relishing his latest firestorm, claiming his battles with the media have invigorated the Christian faith.
TRUMP: I got a call the other night from pastors, the big -- the biggest pastors, evangelical Christians. They said, we have never seen our religion or any religion so electrified.
ACOSTA: The president is describing the latest job numbers in almost biblical terms.
TRUMP: Asia is doing poorly, to put it mildly. And we continue to do very well with a miracle.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: Now, the president says none of this has to do with politics.
But check his fund-raising requests all this week. It is worth noting he is now fund-raising, not just off of the Bidens, but now this impeachment call from Democrats. Mr. Trump has been telling his allies all week he doesn't believe he's done anything wrong in seeking foreign help for his reelection next year.
A source close to the White House who has spoken with the president this week says Mr. Trump is now going for broke on this issue -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jim Acosta at the White House, thank you.
Now we have new details about key testimony in the impeachment investigation, along with a series of incriminating text messages.
Our justice correspondent, Jessica Schneider, is working this part of the story for us.
Jessica, CNN has obtained the opening statement to Congress by the former U.S. envoy to Ukraine.
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: We have, Wolf.
And in it, Kurt Volker went step by step to explain why he connected Rudy Giuliani to Ukrainian officials and how it was all in an effort to convince Giuliani and in turn the president that Ukraine's new president could be trusted.
[18:10:07]
But we're seeing tonight that the president wouldn't listen and was convinced that the Ukrainians had tried to take him down in 2016.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Former U.S. special envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker's opening statement to lawmakers obtained by CNN today details Rudy Giuliani's influence on President Trump's perception of Ukraine, as he tried to convince the president that Ukraine's new government was serious about stopping corruption.
Volker revealed that he met in late May with President Trump, who insisted Ukraine was a corrupt country full of terrible people. The president said, "They tried to take me down."
The president referring to a theory that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that interfered in the 2016 election. That has been debunked. Volker also released pages of texts that show how the Trump administration, with the help of Rudy Giuliani, was determined to push Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son, as well as that debunked theory.
On July 25, the day of Trump's phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky, Volker texted Zelensky's aide: "Heard from the White House. Assuming President Z convinces Trump he will investigate, get to the bottom of what happened in 2016, we will nail down date for visit to Washington."
But Volker insisted in his statement he never took part in an effort to encourage Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden, saying: "The suggestion that he would be influenced in his duties as vice president by money for his son simply has no credibility to me. I know him as a man of integrity and dedication to our country."
But Volker's involvement in influencing Ukrainian policy is clear from this text in early August to Rudy Giuliani: "Hi, Mr. Mayor. Had a good chat with Yermak last night. He was pleased with your phone call. Mentioned Z making a statement. Can we all get on the phone to make sure I advise Z correctly as to what he should be saying?"
The statement was supposed to lay out how Ukraine would pursue corruption investigations into the 2016 election and a company Hunter Biden was involved in. But that statement was never released.
On August 30, the top American diplomat in Ukraine, William Taylor, tells Volker that the president has canceled his trip to Ukraine. The next day, Taylor texts Gordon Sondland, a prominent Republican donor and U.S. ambassador to the European Union: "Are we now saying that security assistance and White House meeting are conditioned on investigations?"
Sondland responds: "Call me."
On September 9, Taylor again brings up the point: "As I said on the phone, I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign."
Sondland texts back hours later, defending the president: "I believe you're incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The president has been crystal clear, no quid pro quos of any kind."
(END VIDEOTAPE) SCHNEIDER: And, tonight, conflicting accounts of whether the president tied military aid for Ukraine to the country's assistance in investigations.
"The Wall Street Journal" is reporting Republican Senator Ron Johnson says that the U.S. ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland, told him there was a quid pro quo, but when Senator Johnson asked the president, Trump flatly rejected that the two were tied.
And Senator Johnson also said he told the president it was Sondland who told him the aid was tied to Ukraine's help. But then, of course, as we saw from those texts, just days later, Sondland insisted the president had been -- quote -- "crystal clear" there was no quid pro quo.
And, Wolf, we may get an answer from Sondland about what he said. CNN has confirmed with two sources that Sondland will testify before three congressional committees. That will be next Tuesday. That is earlier than he had originally been scheduled to appear -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Yes, Sondland, the U.S. ambassador of the European Union, a political appointee, not a career diplomat, not a career Foreign Service officer.
Thanks very much for that, Jessica Schneider, reporting.
Joining us now, Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney. He's a Democrat, serves on the House Intelligence Committee.
Congressman, thanks very much for coming on.
So, what do you make of what we -- what Senator Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin, has told "The Wall Street Journal," that Ambassador Sondland did tie military aid to Ukraine, which was being held up, to the president's demands for investigations?
REP. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY (D-NY): Look, it's pretty crystal clear what is happening here.
And we have known the basic facts for a few days now. And these texts only confirm them. They confirm the president's misconduct. They confirm that he sought assistance from a foreign government.
That's enough, by the way. You don't need a quid pro quo. He doesn't have to give anything of value in return for that. It's illegal to request foreign assistance or receive it in a political campaign.
But it's quite clear that he was dangling the White House visit and security assistance on getting an investigation that would harm a political rival. These texts only confirm it.
BLITZER: We understand Ambassador Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, he is now scheduled to appear before Congress, I guess behind closed doors, on Tuesday.
What do you want to ask him? MALONEY: I want to ask him exactly what was said in that phone call
with Ambassador Volker.
[18:15:00]
I mean, it's quite clear that he wanted to take it off text message because he was worried about what was being documented, and do it by phone. He needs to answer for that under oath.
BLITZER: Secretary Pompeo, the secretary of state, he has tried to delay these depositions by current and former State Department officials.
Has he now signed off on these interviews?
MALONEY: Look, the secretary of state has some very difficult questions to answer.
And the fact that he was listening in on the phone call, and somehow neglected to mention that for days...
BLITZER: The phone call between the president and Zelensky, the new Ukrainian leader.
MALONEY: The critical phone call between the two presidents.
We now know the secretary of state was on that call. And his actions do not suggest that he's trying to get the truth out here. They suggest that he's trying to further the cover-up.
BLITZER: Well, what stood out to you in the text messages that Volker did provide your committee? We have now read them all. And some of them are pretty alarming.
MALONEY: They're alarming.
They're also heartbreaking, that we have come to the point where an American president is engaged in this unholy alliance between foreign policy and his own political advantage, where he is corrupting career diplomats and civil servants to try to further that scheme.
And I think Ambassador Volker has some tough questions to answer. But the fact is, is that the -- it is the president, it is the president whose conduct we need to focus on.
BLITZER: Let's talk about the vice president, Mike Pence. I know your committee -- the committees now are seeking documents from the vice president.
The vice president's office put out a statement saying that your demand for these documents does not appear to be a serious request.
So, what are your options here?
MALONEY: Yes, look, I think it's -- what the chairmen and the speaker have made clear is that they're not messing around, that they are going to consider at this stage obstruction of Congress to be an additional impeachable offense.
So, the White House needs to provide information if it is requested, or they need to be held accountable. And that needs to happen fast.
BLITZER: But you hear the demonstration officials say that all your requests are not really all that legal because you didn't have a full- scale vote on the House floor formally opening an impeachment inquiry.
The House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, says she may take a full vote on that, even though she says it's not required by the majority to do so. Where do you stand on that?
MALONEY: I will leave that decision to the speaker.
But I think my colleagues are more than willing to be to be held accountable for their view on this.
BLITZER: Do you think there are 218 Democrats, maybe one or two Republicans, who would vote for a full-scale impeachment inquiry to be formally authorized by the full House of Representatives?
MALONEY: Look, we're all going to be -- we're all going to have to stand up and be counted soon enough.
I don't understand the Republican position. If their position is, is, we should rush it before we get out the facts, which presumably might help the president, if he has nothing to hide -- I mean, is there a position that we should rush such a serious vote before we have had all of the key people come in and explain themselves, before we have seen the documents?
Now, none of us is going to be stonewalled. And I'm more than willing to take a vote any time, anyplace. But I will leave that decision to the speaker.
BLITZER: You would vote in favor of that kind of vote, right?
MALONEY: Absolutely, I would at this stage.
I think that the facts are important to uncover, though. And the American people deserve a full exposition of the facts before the Congress asks them to go...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: So you support a full-scale impeachment inquiry.
Are you ready at this point to also support impeaching the president?
MALONEY: That decision is for the speaker to make.
I think that she has been understandably holding herself to a very high bar for putting the country through an impeachment. I agree with her approach. And I will leave it to her to make that decision.
I do think it is important to move expeditiously. But we also need the facts.
BLITZER: Congressman Maloney, thanks so much for coming in.
MALONEY: My pleasure.
BLITZER: It's going to be a lively few weeks right now. We will watch it together with you.
The breaking news continues next. House Democrats could issue subpoenas for White House documents at any time, as the impeachment inquiry escalates.
And now they're also seeking documents from Vice President Pence. Will he comply?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:23:46]
BLITZER: We're following breaking news on the impeachment investigation.
House Democrats have just filed a new subpoena demanding documents from the White House. They're also requesting documents from the vice president, Mike Pence. And it's all part of an urgent push to explore the president's efforts to get Ukraine to dig up dirt on his potential 2020 opponent Joe Biden.
Joining us now, Senator Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat who serves on the Judiciary Committee.
Senator, thanks so much for joining us.
We now have the letter. This is the letter written by three committee chairmen in the House, Elijah Cummings of the Oversight Committee, Adam Schiff of the Intelligence Committee, Eliot Engel of the Foreign Affairs Committee, a letter written to the Honorable John Michael Mulvaney, better known as Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, saying they want key documents involving the president's role and other administration officials' role in squeezing the Ukrainians for dirt on the vice president, the former vice president, Joe Biden.
What's your reaction?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): My reaction is that this kind of corroborating evidence is going to be very powerful in showing how wide-ranging the involvement of other officials was, not only the vice president, but obviously the attorney general who went abroad seeking aid for the same kind of interference in our election, dirt on Biden, and other officials in other countries through Secretary of State Pompeo.
[18:25:15]
But, fundamentally, the facts here show the president himself in that call to the president of Ukraine tried to leverage taxpayer dollars and bring pressure to bear on the Ukrainian president to interfere in our elections.
There's a grave national security issue here, an abuse of power by the president himself.
And for all the corroborating evidence, what's important for Congress to do right now, and certainly I'm going to be doing, is keep our eye on the ball.
It's the president of the United States that really is at issue here and his abuse of power.
BLITZER: Your Republican colleague Senator Ron Johnson tells "The Wall Street Journal" that one of the president's handpicked ambassadors, Gordon Sondland, the ambassador to the European Union, told him that military aid to Ukraine was linked to Ukraine launching investigations into the Bidens in the 2016 election.
What's your reaction to that?
BLUMENTHAL: Number one, the holding hostage of military aid over the Ukrainian president is not only an abuse of power. It is also a grave threat to our own national security.
It was a gift, in effect, to Vladimir Putin. Russia is involved in attacking Ukraine. It seized Crimea. Russia is testing us. And the president, in effect, is sending a signal to Vladimir Putin as to whose side he's on.
But, second, there's no need for a quid pro quo for there to be an abuse of power here. The president is saying, I would like you to do us a favor, his words.
And what he is asking the Ukrainian president to do is, as you said so well, dig up dirt on a political opponent. That is a violation of law. But, more fundamentally, it's a violation of the Constitution, of his oath of office, and an abuse of power that is more than justification to move forward with impeachment.
And the American people, I think, are reacting to it, even though, sadly, and I think tragically for them, my Republican colleagues have remained mostly silent, including Ron Johnson.
BLITZER: The text messages that now have been released, provided by the now former special envoy, Kurt Volker, do you believe they constitute evidence that there may, in fact, have been a specific quid pro quo?
BLUMENTHAL: They do constitute evidence of a quid pro quo.
There is probably more evidence of a quid pro quo. And the House Intelligence Committee and the House itself is only on the cusp of additional evidence, is the best information we have.
But, again, fundamentally, a quid pro quo is a real abuse of power, but the leveraging of taxpayer dollars, the seeking of foreign interference in an American election is an abuse of the president's duty to the American people and to the Constitution.
BLITZER: Senator Blumenthal, thanks so much for joining us.
BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.
BLITZER: There's more breaking news just ahead, as impeachment investigators confirm they just subpoenaed the White House.
Also breaking, Senator Bernie Sanders gets out of the hospital, and his doctors reveal he suffered a heart attack.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
WOLF BLITZER, CNN THE SITUATION ROOM: House Democrats just hit the White House with a new subpoena as President Trump warns he may defy impeachment investigators. We're covering all of the breaking news on the Ukraine scandal. Our correspondents and our experts are here.
David Chalian, the White House now facing this new subpoena, but do you think anything will change in how the president decides to respond?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: No. I think that it's going to still -- the White House, the president, they're still going to respond with resistance. I think that's clear in the way they have responded to each one of these requests. And we even heard from the White House that they're now suggesting that Nancy Pelosi has to hold a vote on the House floor to open this impeachment inquiry, which is not spelled out in the Constitution at all in order for them to start even thinking about responding.
It seems to me, Wolf, these requests, these subpoenas, I'll be surprised if they just get resolved amicably between these two branches without going to the courts.
BLITZER: Yes, I assume they're going to go to the courts as well.
Abby, just a little while ago, the vice president, his office, was requested some documents from members, the House majority documents. But they responded by saying, this is the vice president's spokesperson, it does not appear to be a serious request. Are they just brushing off what the majority in the House of Representatives are asking for?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It seems, as David said, the strategy is just simply pushing back on all of this, delaying as much as possible. But it's not clear how long they can continue to do that.
The Congress has a clear responsibility and ability to request these kinds of documents. And if the White House is going to push back, they're going to have to put forward some kind of real rationale for doing that and it might very well end up in the courts.
[18:35:00]
But, clearly, the administration thinks that they can just dismiss it after the time being and see what the consequences are at a later date, because delay, in and of itself, is the strategy.
SUSAN HENNESSEY, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND LEGAL ANALYST: That said, we are in a completely different world now. We've seen the White House rely on the stonewall strategy. But this newest letter issuing the subpoenas out of the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees this evening makes clear, failure to comply with these subpoenas is itself evidence of obstruction of justice. We will move forward on a negative inference.
And so the White House is in a lose-lose position. Either they have to produce these documents or their refusal to produce them self itself becomes impeachable conduct. So the incentives here are very, very different than what we've seen over the past years.
PHILLIP: I think that's what they know. And they think they're headed to an impeachment vote any way. So if they are heading there any way, they are saying, we don't even need to bother putting forward these documents because you guys are going to vote to impeach this president one way or another.
BLITZER: But it's interesting. The secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, he had a deadline today that's come and gone seeking documents from him, seeking all sorts of subpoenaed evidence, but so far, he has declined. Let's see what happens before the day is completely over.
But it's in sharp contrast to what he used to say when he was in the majority, a Republican member of Congress from Kansas investigating Hillary Clinton and Benghazi. We went back and look to see what he used to say then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our goal is really quite simple. It's to get every single fact we can get, every document, every witness. I had to put together the puzzle, the mosaic for the American people.
It's not about politics. It's just about getting the story to the American people.
Issues like are all the documents available for Congress to review, have all the witnesses that have relevant factual information presented themselves.
The president didn't turn over all the documents in response to a congressional subpoena. And that's just unacceptable.
And so we're going to go get all the documents. We're going to go get all the witnesses. We're going to find out precisely what happened.
We need to make sure that this administration doesn't cover up, doesn't deny and doesn't withhold.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right. That was then and this is now.
JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMAIC ANALYST: Well, the pot and this is the kettle. I mean, Secretary Mike, meet Congressman Mike. I remember all of that stuff over Benghazi, months and months and months of investigating that led nowhere. That got to nothing.
So, now, look, it's where you sit, where you stand in this town. He now sits in a different place and they're trying to slow-roll this to keep it from moving forward, so he is simply playing politics here.
HENNESSEY: And it's not just an institutional stake. Pompeo also has a personal stake here. This is not just a scandal about the president. This is a scandal in which Mike Pompeo is personally, deeply involved in it.
And so he's someone who is ambitious. Reportedly, he's considering a Senate run in the future. He is someone who is thinking a lot about his political future.
And so this is a scandal that might not just result in things like the impeachment of the president but consequences for Pompeo, potentially even impeachment of Pompeo himself certainly would substantially dampen his political prospects in the future.
KIRBY: And Volker text and all the stuff that came out today just, I think, further shows the degree to which the State Department was involved in this.
BLITZER: David Chalian, the House Democrats, I think they were hoping for a final vote on impeachment, articles of impeachment by Thanksgiving. Is that realistic at all?
CHALIAN: Well, potentially. I mean, we'll see here how quickly it goes. Nancy Pelosi, the speaker last night in Florida said, we don't have to do much of an inquiry in this impeachment inquiry, meaning that so much of the fact pattern is already in the public domain that this seems to be moving quickly. The phone call, the complaint, the text messages now, the president's own words, a lot is already out there. Congress has never known, Wolf, for moving quickly, obviously, but this goal of doing it expeditiously is still very much on the speaker's mind.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, I think we are only two days now into testimony on the Hill. The first day produced some of the most substantial developments in this probe. Principally, this question of what was the reason this aid was held up and was it linked, were people in the government of the belief that it was linked to Ukraine investigating the Bidens? That has all been revealed. So I can't imagine what we're going to learn next week when more people are coming forward and testifying as we kind of reveal more information about this. There are clearly a lot of people within this government who believe that there was something nefarious going on. They wrote a lot of it down. They moved the transcript to a secure server. And we're finding out that pretty quickly. I think Nancy Pelosi is likely to be able to get them.
BLITZER: Everybody stand by. We have breaking news coming into The Situation Room on the Democratic presidential race.
Bernie Sanders was just released from the hospital in Las Vegas. His doctors now confirm he did, in fact, have a heart attack.
Let's go to our Senior Washington Correspondent Jeff Zeleny who is watching these developments. What are you learning, Jeff?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, good evening. Just a short time ago, Senator Bernie Sanders was released from the Nevada hospital there, as we saw him walking out giving a sign that -- he's with his wife Jane there, saying he's feeling strong and good.
[18:40:06]
But, Wolf, we are learning for the first time in a statement from his doctor that he did indeed have a heart attack. We have known for the last couple of days he had a stent that was put in after a procedure but we did not know he had a heart attack.
So here is a part of a statement from his doctor that the campaign is releasing this evening. It reads like this. It says, after presenting to an outside facility with chest pains, Senator Sanders was diagnosed with a myocardial infarction, and that means a heart attack.
So, Wolf, this is something that is certainly going to be a part of the discussion going forward, going to raise questions about when he is going to be able to get back to work.
He did release a statement saying he is looking forward to recuperating in, getting back to work. But is the fact that he had a heart attack at the age of 78 that is going to linger over his candidacy here, Wolf, as we get more information about how severe that actually was.
BLITZER: Yes, this is a very disturbing development indeed.
Stand by. I want to bring in our Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. He's joining us on the phone right now.
Sanjay, so you've got the information. All of us now have the information from his campaign. What do you think?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDIAL CORRESPONDENT: It was another piece of information in there as well, Wolf, and that he was diagnosed with this heart attack at the first hospital that Senator Sanders was taken to. That was what prompted him to go to the second hospital and have this heart catheterization. So they did know about this heart attack very quickly after he went to the first hospital, Wolf.
What we know now is that two-and-a-half days later, he's out and about. He's discharged from the hospital while they didn't say in that statement if this was mild heart attack or moderate or severe. It's more likely to be on the mild side given how quickly he's been discharged.
Here is the way, I think, to really think about it, the heart is a muscle. It's not getting enough blood flow. As a result of that, there are certain heart muscle tissue that dies, and that's what a heart attack is. Once you restore the blood flow, the symptoms of chest pain, shortness of breath, other symptoms, those improve. The question now is how significant was the heart attack? Will it affect his heart function going forward? Meaning will it make him less likely to be as -- be able to exert himself as fully.
Again, the only clue we have is that two-and-a-half days later, he's leaving the hospital and that's a good sign. I'm sure there's going to be a couple of (ph) exam to try determine just how strong his heart is in the weeks to come, Wolf.
BLITZER: He had two stents that were inserted. Is that enough potentially to solve this problem?
GUPTA: Yes. I think when you -- the procedure that was likely done before the stent was an angiogram where you're injecting dye into the blood vessel that leads to the heart and you're looking for blockages. If there had been several arteries, these are called the coronary arteries that go to the heart, there had been several of those that had blockages.
At that point, the medical team has a decision to make. Do we go ahead and do what's called a coronary bypass operation? And that's open heart surgery where you're bypassing those vessels. He didn't have that done, which suggests that there wasn't some broader diseased vessels around his heart. There was one that (INAUDIBLE) problem, that one which should require two stents. So that's what we're hearing from the (INAUDIBLE) putting them together. And that seems to have addressed this problem.
Again, the fact that (INAUDIBLE) has been the question all along, and now we know the answer to that, but we still don't know how significant was it, how much heart tissue was affected and how strong was his heartbeat going forward. The only thing we know are the images that you're seeing he's up and about, walking around, participated in the debates, and those are all very good signs, obviously.
BLITZER: Well, we do know that just before he went to the hospital, he was out there campaigning. He was in Las Vegas. And he was standing and answering questions from people who just came to one of his town halls. And all of a sudden he said get me chair, I've got to sit down. We have that video of him sitting down and then they brought over a microphone to deal with this. Clearly, this is a serious problem. Someone who is 78 years old, has a heart take, has two stents inserted. What kind of recovery, how long will he be on the sidelines, do you think, from the campaign trail? What are his doctors telling him? Because we all know Senator Sanders is a very lively guy, he goes out there, he's very assertive, very energetic. But, presumably, this is going to cause him to slow down.
GUPTA: Yes. I think that's fair to say though, Wolf. One of the objectives of this procedure, of the stent procedure, is to really restore someone back to their way of life.
[18:45:07]
Any muscle if you're exerting it, and it's not getting enough blood flow, it hurts. That's for chest pain that people feel. So, it was happening in your arms or your legs or in this case, your heart, that's the pain.
Once you restore the blood flow, you feel better. And the point of me saying that is that, you know, someone who has the blood flow restored may, in fact, in some ways be more vigorous than they were before. Now, you add on this new information that we've just learned that he had a heart attack and the significance of that isn't so much that he is -- means that he will continue to have pain, right, because that has been addressed now by opening up that clogged artery.
What that really -- the issue there is how much of his heart muscle tissue was affected. How much of his heart muscle tissue went without adequate blood flow and as a result he had cells within his heart that died. If it's minor, it may not be something that's very noticeable. You'd still be able to do (INAUDIBLE) go upstairs, be active. If it was moderate or severe, he may be more affected by that. He may get, you know, get tired more easily, shortness of breath more easily.
So, the pain, the symptom of pain that took him to the hospital in first place. And, by the way, Wolf, it's one thing worth pointing out, you and I talk about heart disease in the past, someone have pain they get it checked out right away which he did. That's what you need to do. I mean, that likely saved his life going in right away. It's always an important message.
But that pain that took him to the hospital is probably now gone. It's now a question of this muscle, how strong is it compared to before the heart attack? We don't know the answer to that. The only thing we have are clues, again, discharged within 2-1/2 days, saying he's going to go forward with participation and debates and being out of the hospital up walking around. Those are all positive signs, Wolf.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Yes, but, Sanjay, the pressure on him out there on the campaign trail to do what he's been doing is going to be enormous right now. What's your recommendation? Someone who is 78 years old, just had a heart attack, had stents inserted. Shouldn't that person calm down for a bit, rest, recuperate, get his strength back and then maybe in a few weeks go back out in the campaign trail if he wants to?
GUPTA: I think there's -- you know, there's not hard and fast recommendations regarding this. The symptoms were severe enough to send him to hospital, it's likely the affecting him for some time. He may have had symptoms milder over the last several weeks. We don't know.
But now that the blood flow is restored, on one hand, Wolf, those symptoms are probably have been addressed. So, he'll probably feel better. That's one part of the equation.
The other part of the equation is what you're bringing up. If the heart muscle tissue significant amount of it was impacted by the lack of blood flow. Impacted by the heart attack, then he may tire more easily still. He may not be as able to expend as much energy as he was in the past.
As far as what the doctors will tell him, again, part of the reason to do these procedures is to get someone back to their way of life. If you didn't do that, you would tell someone they needed to be bedridden. Could not exert themselves. Could not do anything to have the heart demand more oxygenated blood.
In this case, they're saying, OK, we opened up these blood vessels. The heart is now getting blood flow, we shouldn't have those symptoms of pain anymore. If it was a mild heart attack, my guess, Wolf, and, listen, I'm speculating at this point obviously, but, look, if this was a mild heart attack, my doctors would say, look, we want to check in with you again in some, you know, time frame within the next several weeks.
But, you know, probably clear him to go back to being active, maybe telling him to cool it a little bit. He's very active. But there's no hard and fast rules here, Wolf.
BLITZER: There certainly isn't. You know, I want you to stand by, Sanjay.
David Chalian, our political director, is watching all of this unfold. What are you thoughts as we see this confirmation now that Senator Bernie Sanders did, in fact, have a heart attack.
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. Well, my first thoughts is nice to see Bernie Sanders leaving the hospital on his own accord, putting his fist many the air. Listening to Sanjay say that all that pain is likely alleviated here.
But, Wolf, you know, our three front runners in this race are all in their 70s. Age has been a topic of conversation already in this race and this certainly will make sure that that conversation stays front and center in many ways.
[18:50:08]
There's also a reason why presidential candidates at some point in this campaign process, you know, put out medical records and that is to show the country they are healthy and fit and vigorous and can handle the jobs. And so, no presidential candidate obviously would design, apart from the health matters, nobody would want a heart attack, but no campaign would want to see that their candidate has had a heart attack and is going to take a break from the campaign trail.
Of course, first and foremost, your concern for the human being but the political fallout is this will now be a question around his campaign going forward. Everyone will be watching when he returns to the campaign trail. Is he as vigorous as he once was? Does he feel completely himself with the ability to see this race all the way through the distance here?
So I do think that there will be questions around Sanders when he does eventually return to the campaign trail as the campaign said he will and they'll participate in that debate. He said he wants to get back to work. But now, we're going to have to wait and see how long does it take him to get out there and what does he say he feels when he's back out there, and what would be observe?
BLITZER: Yes, that CNN/"New York Times" debate is, what, October 15th, less than two weeks from now.
Let me bring Jeff Zeleny into this.
Jeff, I understand you have more about what Senator Sanders' campaign just said in their statement.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: We do indeed, Wolf. I have been speaking with advisers to the senator asking, you know, certainly how is he doing and when is he going to get back to the campaign trail?
And they say they aren't quite sure about that. This is going to be a day and time situation. But we do have a window into that through the senator's own statement that he released as he was leaving the hospital and he's a bit vague on that. He says this, Wolf, let's take a look.
He said: After spending two and a half days in the hospital and after taking a short time off, I look forward to getting back to work.
So, that is the question there -- after taking a short time off. That is going forward, or short time off. So, he is committed for that October 15th debate, but we do not know when he'll be campaigning and David is absolutely right. At age 78, that has been one of the questions for all of the leading candidates, there's a wide -- a huge age gap here. Some of these candidates, Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden are twice as old as other candidates in the race, like Pete Buttigieg.
So, it has been a question for the candidates and this is bringing to mind what Joe Biden has said as well, Wolf. He's 76 years old, the second oldest candidate in the race. He is committed to releasing his medical records before the Iowa caucuses. So, sometime in the next four months, he's committed to releasing his medical records, and I believe this incident with Bernie Sanders is only going to heighten that and heighten the need for him to release the medical records, as well as Senator Elizabeth Warren likely as well. She is 70 years old.
So, certainly, this is something that is going to add health into the conversation. We should point out, of course, Donald Trump, 73 years old, as well. It's not like the Democrats a older and the sitting president is not, Wolf. But this is certainly going to be something.
And all of this comes as Bernie Sanders has been dragging in the polls a bit, but, Wolf, he led the way in fund-raising. In the third quarter, $25 million, slightly more than Elizabeth Warren and significantly more than Joe Biden. So, Bernie Sanders is still a central figure in this campaign and we will certainly see when he returns if he's going to be out vigorously campaigning, but his aides certainly hope and believe he will.
But you can see those fund-raising numbers there and Andrew Yang, of course, $10 million. So, as you go through the line here, Wolf, this is not likely to reset the conversation of the campaign, but this is certainly going to be a question that Bernie Sanders is going to have to be dealing with here as he goes forward and, plus, everything else, of course, as well, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Everybody, stand by. We're following the breaking news.
We're going to have much more right after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: New bloodshed in Iraq as anti-government unrest boiling over in the streets. At least 41 people have now been killed after days of violent protests across the country and more than 1,600 people have been injured. Iraqi security snipers opened fire on dozens of demonstrators defying a curfew in Baghdad.
The protesters are mostly young men. They're venting their anger about widespread unemployment, corruption and a lack of basic services.
Tonight, Iraq's prime minister is promising to study the protesters' demands as a powerful cleric is demanding that the Iraqi government be held accountable.
Remember, there are still thousands of U.S. troops, American contractors, American diplomats in Baghdad, elsewhere in Iraq, as well. So, we're watching all of this very closely.
Finally tonight, don't miss two CNN original series this weekend "DECLASSIFIED: UNTOLD STORIES OF AMERICAN SPIES" with Mike Rogers. That's at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, Sunday nights, followed by a new episode of "THIS IS LIFE" with Lisa Ling. That's at 10:00 Eastern, Sunday night.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.
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