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The Situation Room

Interview With Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT); Trump Resisting Election Defeat Reality; Trump Orders Troop Drawdown In Iraq And Afghanistan; U.S. Tops 248,000 COVID Deaths And 11.3 Million Cases, States Announce New Restrictions Amid Surging Pandemic; Sen. Graham Defends Probing Local Officials In Key States Biden Won; How Much Credit Is Trump Due For Vaccine Breakthroughs? Aired 6-7p ET

Aired November 17, 2020 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:12]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.

We're following breaking news.

President Donald Trump is moving ahead with a very controversial drawdown of U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, even as he refuses to acknowledge his days in office are numbered, the withdrawals due to happen within days of president-elect Biden's inauguration. Biden met with national security experts today, despite being blocked from formal classified briefings by the Trump administration, this as President Trump stews over at the White House, sowing chaos and conspiracy, while ignoring the exploding pandemic.

Tonight, more than 248,000 Americans have died of COVID-19, and more than 11.3 million have been infected. Multiple states have improved new restrictions, as the virus surges across the country. But there is some additional promise on the vaccine front. Pfizer has just announced its vaccine has reached a safety milestone and it's now preparing to file for an emergency use authorization from the FDA.

Let's start off our coverage this hour with our White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, the Pentagon announced the troop drawdown as the president continued to completely stay out of sight again.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf.

And he's staying out of site but sight, but he's not staying quiet. This two-month period is typically pretty quiet as much as the next days of the president is in office. But President Trump is making clear that it's going to be anything but, having his Pentagon chief who has only been on the job for a week announce that troops are going to be withdrawn out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

And those decisions are coming even as the president is staying behind closed doors. But, Wolf, he's making clear that the next few months he is going to get basically everything that he didn't get done in his first few years in office out of the way as he's on his way out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): With two months left in office, President Trump ordered the Pentagon to withdraw thousands of troops from Iraq and Afghanistan before his term is up, as he tries to make good on a campaign promise.

CHRISTOPHER MILLER, ACTING U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: This is consistent with our established plans and strategic objectives, supported by the American people, and does not equate to a change in U.S. policy or objectives.

COLLINS: Acting Defense Secretary Chris Miller confirmed the move today in only his second week on the job. His predecessor, Mark Esper, who was fired last week, had written a classified memo arguing conditions on the ground did not justify these reductions.

MILLER: By January 15, 2021, our forces, their size in Afghanistan will be 2,500 troops. Our force size in Iraq will also be 2,500 by that same date.

COLLINS: Miller said the troops will be withdrawn by the time president-elect Joe Biden is inaugurated. But instead of offering insight into the decision, he walked off and took no questions.

At the White House, National Security Adviser Robert O'Brien also touted the move without answering a single question. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell delivered a thinly veiled warning from Capitol Hill moments after the announcement.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I think it's extremely important here in the next couple of months not to have any earthshaking changes with regard to defense and foreign policy.

COLLINS: The top Republican on the House Armed Services Committee, Mac Thornberry, said, it would undercut negotiations, and: "The Taliban has done nothing, met no condition that would justify this cut."

President Trump did not publicly comment on the announcement, as he stayed behind closed doors again today. Behind the scenes, Trump has continued to push baseless claims of election fraud, while pushing his attorneys to keep making dubious arguments in court.

After the first two legal teams dropped out, his third set of attorneys attempted to stop the certification of the vote in Pennsylvania today, where the case is seen as a legal long shot. The Trump campaign has until tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Central to ask for a recount in Wisconsin that will cost an estimated $7.9 million and must be paid up front.

The campaign hasn't said what they will do.

ERIN PERRINE, DIRECTOR OF PRESS COMMUNICATIONS, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN: We will have a decision coming in the next few days here.

COLLINS: As Georgia's recount comes to a close, the top election official in the state says he's under growing pressure from his own party, including South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham.

BLITZER: I just want to be clear on this, Mr. Secretary. You say Senator Graham wanted you to find ways to get rid of legally cast ballots? Because CNN asked him about these allegations. He denied them. He says that's ridiculous. His words, that's ridiculous.

[18:05:07]

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R), GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it's just an implication that, look hard and see how many ballots you can throw out.

COLLINS: Graham denied pressuring Georgia's Republican secretary of state.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I categorically reject that. That wasn't my intent. And that wasn't the purpose of the conversation, throw out ballots. We're talking about an election we haven't even had yet, which is the Senate races. That was my focus.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And, Wolf, the president has been spending an awful lot of time in the White House since the election, not really coming out in front of cameras.

And now we're learning he may be spending even more time here, because, normally, for Thanksgiving, that week of, he goes to his Mar- a-Lago club in Palm Beach, Florida, but we are now hearing from a White House official that they are strongly considering canceling that visit and instead having the president remain here in Washington.

BLITZER: All right, a very disturbing development. We just learned, as you know, Kaitlan, that Senator Chuck Grassley, 87 years old, has tested positive for coronavirus.

What are you hearing over there?

COLLINS: Yes, Wolf. This is really disturbing. He's 87 years old, and he was in quarantine after coming into contact with someone who had tested positive, and now he himself has also tested positive.

Of course, you saw him yesterday here in Washington on the Senate floor. But, today, he missed votes for the first time since 1993, because of the fact that he came into contact with someone. And, of course, Wolf, we hope the best for Chuck Grassley, that he gets well soon.

But, of course, you have got to think this also comes as you're seeing people like Sherrod Brown and Dan Sullivan of Alaska argue about whether or not people should be wearing a mask on the Senate floor while they're speaking. And, of course, this could make the case that they should be.

BLITZER: Yes, it's a really disturbing, disturbing development. And, of course, we wish Senator Chuck Grassley a speedy, speedy recovery. We hope for the best for him. He's third in line to the presidency, after the vice president and the speaker, as we all know as well. We wish him a speedy recovery.

Kaitlan, thank you very much.

Let's go to the president-elect right now and his efforts to move ahead with the transition.

Our political correspondent, Arlette Saenz, is joining us from Wilmington, Delaware.

Arlette, first of all, any reaction from team Biden to the new troop withdrawals ordered by President Trump?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, Wolf, right now, from president-elect Joe Biden, there is not expected to be any immediate comment regarding this troop drawdown in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That's expected to happen just days before he takes office.

But Biden is keenly aware of the situation that he will be inheriting from President Trump. And, today, he held a briefing on national security by a team of experts that included former government officials and military leaders, in lieu of the federal government providing classified intelligence briefings that they still would not provide to him, as the president has not accepted the results of the election.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAENZ (voice-over): President-elect Joe Biden put national security front and center today, as the Trump administration blocks his access to the nation's top secrets.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: There's no presidential responsibility more important than protecting the American people.

SAENZ: Biden assembled his own team of diplomatic, intelligence and defense experts from outside the government, in lieu of the classified intelligence briefings the federal government's still won't provide.

BIDEN: We need to focus on readiness for whatever may come.

SAENZ: Biden also spoke today with five world leaders, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, whose office referred to Biden in a tweet as president-elect, something President Trump refuses to acknowledge.

BIDEN: My basic message, America's back, and it's no longer America alone.

SAENZ: Back in Washington, Kamala Harris returned to the Senate as vice president-elect, even greeted with a fist bump from one of the GOP senators publicly siding with Trump in the transition standoff.

Biden is plowing ahead, naming the senior team who will lead his White House. In addition to Ron Klain as chief of staff, two longtime advisers are signing on, Mike Donilon as senior adviser and Steve Ricchetti as counselor to the president.

Biden has tapped some campaign veterans, including his campaign manager, Jen O'Malley Dillon, in the role of deputy chief of staff. And Louisiana Congressman Cedric Richmond, a national co-chair of Biden's campaign, is leaving his House seat for a top White House job.

REP. CEDRIC RICHMOND (D-LA): This new role will allow me to offer advice to the president when he wants it, maybe sometimes when he doesn't want it.

SAENZ: Richmond's hiring drew some backlash from progressive organizations, with the Sunrise Movement calling it a betrayal, due to the congressman accepting donations from the fossil fuel industry.

Today, President Obama reminding everyone during a virtual sit-down with Oprah what may be one of the biggest challenges facing president- elect Biden.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The truth is, is that there are some deep divisions in this country, and it's going to take all of us, not just one election, to overcome those divisions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[18:10:08]

SAENZ: And Biden's transition team is keeping up the pressure on the Trump administration to coordinate with them on issues relating to the coronavirus pandemic.

The co-chairs of Biden's Coronavirus Advisory Board held a phone call with reporters this afternoon where they talked about the need for coordination, not just on a vaccine distribution plan, but also getting access to data sets relating to PPE, testing supplies, as well as hospital bed capacities, one of those co-chairs saying that there is no time to waste -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Arlette, stand by. I want to bring you back in a moment.

But I also want to bring in our CNN political correspondent, Abby Phillip, and our chief political analyst, Gloria Borger.

Gloria, let's begin with the planned withdrawal, thousands of U.S. troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, by January 15, just five days before President Trump leaves office. Are we seeing what some critics are describing as a scorched-earth strategy emerge from the president during this lame-duck period?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, this is a precedent, as Kaitlan pointed out earlier, who is sulking, who is full of grievance, who is full of retribution, and he's planning his comeback, whatever that may be, and whatever form that may take.

And so what we're seeing piece by piece are President Trump going through a list of things he said he would do before leaving the White House. And one of them, of course, is withdrawing from Iraq and Afghanistan, despite the fact that his own military brass, according to reporting by Jake Tapper, disagreed with him about doing this, but he decided to do it anyway.

And so the question we all have to be asking is, what is he going to do next? There was reporting today about the president getting an option about attacking Iran, for example. We know that he is appointing new people even as we speak with questionable credentials to go into his administration.

And what he is doing is stirring the pot for Joe Biden, and he completely understands that. But if he's going to leave, he's going to leave kicking and screaming, Wolf.

BLITZER: And you would think, Abby, he would at least consult with the with the president-elect, Joe Biden, about this, because the ramifications for the incoming president are going to be pretty significant in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, I think that there often is in these transition periods of consideration that you, meaning President Trump, might not be there to deal with the ramifications of something like this.

But we shouldn't expect President Trump to pick up the phone and call Joe Biden. I'd be surprised if the two interacted at all in this transition period, just given the president's mood.

I think we should also consider the degree to which these moves that we're seeing are a sign that even the president, people around him, with really strong agendas, are actually trying to do as much as they can in the limited time that they have left.

They are saying that the president still has a shot to win this election, but they are acting as if they have limited time at their disposal and trying to do as much as they can to ram some of these decisions through before he is no longer in office on January 20.

BLITZER: You know, Arlette, the announcement came as the president- elect was actually being briefed by national security, foreign policy experts outside of the government right now.

He has yet to receive any official national security briefing, due to a stunning lack of cooperation from the Trump administration. So, what message is Biden sending right now by gathering these experts, including some -- several highly respected retired military officers?

SAENZ: Well, Biden is trying to project this sense of confidence that he can step into that role on the first day, on January 20, and be able to deal with the host of issues that will be confronting him. And that includes foreign policy and national security. And you saw him assemble his own team of experts today as a sort of

work-around around the fact that he's unable to receive those classified intelligence briefings from the federal government.

I mean, one thing for Biden is that he has decades of experience in this sector, so it's not an on-the-job training type of situation. He has pointed out that his vice president-elect, Kamala Harris, continues to receive those intelligence briefings.

But, for the time being, what he is doing is consulting with the people who have had the experience in these agencies on the ground. As you mentioned, he had Stanley McChrystal, a former general, as well as Admiral William McRaven, in that briefing with him today, talking through options and readiness options, as he's preparing for this administration, while he's not getting these classified intelligence briefings from the current administration.

[18:15:01]

BLITZER: What does that tell you, Gloria, about the fact that General McChrystal, so highly respected, at one point, he led U.S. forces in Afghanistan, he was participating in this briefing with the president- elect?

BORGER: I think it tells you an awful lot about Joe Biden, Wolf.

Stanley McChrystal was somebody who disagreed strenuously with Joe Biden in 2009 over the troop surge in Afghanistan. In fact, there was a piece written about McChrystal and his aides in which they made fun of Joe Biden, and McChrystal ended up having to resign as a result of it.

So, there -- they were opposed to each other. And here Joe Biden sought him out and said, look, General McChrystal, we disagreed in the past, but I want to get your advice on going forward.

That is something I could never imagine Donald Trump doing. But Joe Biden is a bigger man, and doesn't behave that way.

BLITZER: Yes, I was impressed. I saw the list of who participated in this briefing for Biden.

BORGER: Yes.

BLITZER: Retired General Lloyd Austin, retired Admiral William McRaven, retired Lieutenant General Vincent Stewart, all, all highly respected military officers.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Abby, do you think we should expect additional high-profile firings or controversial decisions from President Trump in the remaining two months of his presidency?

PHILLIP: Oh, absolutely. I think we should expect any number of moves from this administration. Earlier, Kaitlan Collins reported that aides in the White House were

saying, expect this to be a busy time. And, again, I think it is because people in the White House understand their time is limited.

This is typically a time where an outgoing administration tries to solidify the legacy of the sitting president, who is on his way out. And they're going to do that in as many ways as possible. We're already seeing them pushing to fill judicial vacancies at a pretty rapid clip, pushing to fill some major posts in the federal government, even though President Trump only has days left.

I think we can see a lot more of that, and perhaps even more firings in the intelligence community or even in the law enforcement community as well, where the president has had some tensions.

BLITZER: Good point again.

All right, guys, thank you very much.

Just ahead, I will get reaction from Senate Foreign Relations Committee member Chris Murphy to the president's troop drawdown and his refusal to cooperate with the Biden transition.

And I will speak to the director of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Francis Collins. He's standing by live. We will talk about new progress toward a coronavirus vaccine and the urgent health risks, as Thanksgiving approaches.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:21:56]

BLITZER: We're following the breaking news.

President-elect Biden planning for America's security, as President Trump orders new troop withdrawals and refuses, so far refuses to cooperate with the transition.

We're joined by Senator Chris Murphy, a Democrat. He's a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, thank you so much for joining us.

Is today's non-classified briefing with outside experts that the president had -- president-elect had, I should say, in any way a suitable replacement for the really classified intelligence briefings from government officials, like the one the president-elect traditionally is supposed to be entitled to?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): The short answer is, it is not. There is no way that Vice President Biden, president-elect Biden can get the kind of information that he needs in order to be ready to do the job on day one without this transition beginning.

What we know is that, in the first month of any new president's term, our adversaries and non-state actors around the world will almost always test the new administration. And so that is one of the reasons why it's so critical that there be no gap in knowledge, that the new president have weeks, if not months, to process the most highly sensitive classified information about the threats presented to the United States.

Now, the good news, of course, is that there's been no president in my lifetime that has been more ready to take this job as commander in chief than Joe Biden. So he comes to the office with a set of skills necessary to handle any crisis.

But this inability of the Trump administration to begin the transition, it absolutely does compromise the security of the United States. And it's got to stop.

BLITZER: Yes, he spent eight years as the vice president of the United States, used to receive the daily classified briefings at that time.

Let's talk about these troop drawdowns that the Pentagon announced today in both Iraq and Afghanistan. By the end of the president's term in office, only 2,500 troops will remain in each country. Do you believe these significant cuts are justified by the conditions on the ground?

MURPHY: So, I support a withdrawal of American troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, but I believe it should happen on a policy timetable, not on a political timetable.

Donald Trump is rushing these decisions, in part to try to limit the options that president-elect Biden has to manage very complicated situations abroad. Remember, in Afghanistan, we have been there for almost 20 years, and we have decided to remove our troops in exchange for promises made by the Taliban to achieve political reconciliation with the Afghan government and to end any relationship that they have with al Qaeda.

They have not made good on those promises yet. And so, by withdrawing these troops now, it limits the ability of president-elect Biden to make sense of Afghanistan policy in January.

It's been pretty stunning, Wolf, how many major foreign policy decisions that Donald Trump is making in these final days, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, with respect to Yemen and Iran.

[18:25:00]

It all seems to be a cavalcade of lame-duck pettiness, the president trying to constrain the options available to the president-elect once he comes into the Oval Office.

BLITZER: In addition, Senator to these troop cuts, the president also has made several high-profile changes over the Pentagon, as well as in other federal agencies.

Is he trying to tie the hands of the incoming Biden administration before they even have a chance to get to work?

MURPHY: Well, you certainly worry about these positions he's filling that have 10 years that extend beyond the president's term.

So, we just voted down in the Senate floor a really radical nominee to the Federal Reserve. It was by a very close vote, and that individual would have been there for the entirety of Vice President Biden's term as president, constraining his ability to work side by side with the Fed to help our economy recover.

So, some of these positions that are being filled, of course, only extend as long as Trump is there. Others do have the effect of making it harder for Joe Biden to get his agenda done.

BLITZER: While I have you, very quickly, I want to just get your quick reaction to the very disturbing news we have just learned that your Senate colleague Senator Chuck Grassley...

MURPHY: Yes.

BLITZER: ... has been confirmed positive for coronavirus. He's 87 years old, third in line to the presidency, as we all know. There you see him. Chuck Grassley tests positive for COVID-19.

What's your reaction?

MURPHY: Well, I mean, my heart goes out to Chuck and his wife.

Chuck's in amazing shape for his age. And so my hope is that he will be able to fight this off.

But we're about to go down to the Senate floor for a vote at 6:30. It's an abomination that Mitch McConnell is acting as if business is still going on as usual. We need to start taking precautions here in the Senate. We need testing available to not just members of the Senate, but all the staff, all the cafeteria workers, all the janitorial staff.

The idea that we are here this week voting on nominees to the district court, instead of actually working on coronavirus legislation, is nonsensical, given that our presence here is putting thousands of people at risk. Senator McConnell's got to get a lot more serious about keeping this campus safe.

BLITZER: And we wish Senator Grassley a speedy, speedy recovery. I know that we're all very, very worried about him, given his age, obviously, what's going on.

Thanks so much for joining us, Senator.

MURPHY: Thanks.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.

And just ahead: Hospitalizations for COVID-19 hit another all-time high, as states are scrambling right now to impose new restrictions to try to slow the virus. I will speak to the director of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Francis Collins. He's standing by live. We have lots to discuss. We will break down the risks we all face right now and whether President Trump's refusal to cooperate with the transition is making matters even worse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:00]

BLITZER: Tonight, the coronavirus is spreading so quickly and killing so many Americans that the numbers keep going up before our eyes. Right now, the U.S. death toll has climbed above 248,000 and the total number of cases just topped 11.3 million just here in the United States.

CNN's Alexandra Field is following all the new developments.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): More than 73,000 COVID patients are now hospitalized across the country. Nine months into the U.S. COVID crisis, the number has number has never been this high. In rural parts of America, the strain is almost too much to bear.

DR. DARA KASS, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: When you look at Utah or the Montana or the Dakotas, they just have such a fewer number of ICU beds and specialists, that when they get at capacity, it's going to be a breaking point for them in a way it wasn't for us in the coastal cities and states.

FIELD: The alarm bell sounding nationwide and moving several Republican governors who had resisted restrictions to reverse course. In Iowa, Republican Governor Kim Reynolds is the latest to implement a statewide mask mandate.

GOV KIM REYNOLDS (R-IA): I'm just reminding and asking all Iowans to step up and help us stop the spread of this virus together.

FIELD: In Mississippi, Republican Governor Tate Reeves is now requiring masks in 22 of the state's 82 counties. We haven't seen hospitalization this high there since August.

And in West Virginia --

GOV. JIM JUSTICE (R-WV): How do I feel about the mask? Well, I don't like them. I don't want to wear them.

But more than anything, I want us to get more control, more control over this terrible virus that's just eating us alive. I want us to absolutely wear a mask.

FIELD: Mobile morgue trucks are filling up the parking of the El Paso Medical Examiner's Office and more are rolling into Amarillo, Texas, in preparation for things to get even worst which Dr. Anthony Fauci says will happen. DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Help is on the way, but help is not here yet. The fact that we have a vaccine coming means we should double down and hang in there.

FIELD: Today, Pfizer announced it now has enough data to apply for emergency use authorization from the FDA after reporting last week that its vaccine appears to be 90 percent effective, giving hope for the future as states struggle to contain a ballooning crisis with new restrictions announced every day.

In Pennsylvania, Philadelphia has new limits for indoor gatherings, dining and gyms.

MAYOR JIM KENNEY (D), PHILADELPHIA, PA: There's no doubt these changes are necessary. We need to act now to reduce the rate of increase and to flatten the curve once again.

[18:35:03]

FIELD: To Massachusetts, home to several universities and colleges, the mayor of Boston telling college students who go home for Thanksgiving not to come back.

MAYOR MARTY WALSH (D), BOSTON, MA: If you go home for thanksgiving, you should not be returning to Boston this semester, you should do the rest of your learning remotely.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (on camera): Ohio is among the states that is fighting a surge in cases and hospitalizations to get their arms around it. The governor announced today that a curfew will go into effect starting on Thursday night, just some of the measures they're trying to implemented in order to stem the crisis in that state.

The bottom line, Wolf, you heard it from Fauci, a lot of good vaccine news on the horizon but it simply isn't here yet. Wolf?

BLITZER: All right, Alexandra. Thanks very much, Alexandra Field in New York.

Joining us now, Dr. Francis Collins, he's the Director of the National Institutes of Health. Dr. Collins, thanks so much for joining us and, of course, thanks for everything you and your colleagues are doing to save lives.

As you know, the country is facing a really dangerous surge of the virus, but there is some good news. As we know, Pfizer says it now has enough safety data and is preparing to file for what's called emergency use authorization. Dr. Collins, how significant is that?

DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: It's pretty amazing, actually, that we have reached this point in November, just ten months after the sequence of this virus was first revealed and the vaccine strategies got in place. Keep in mind, it generally takes prior to now about eight years on the average to get a vaccine developed. And here we are with two companies, Pfizer and Moderna, now having revealed their interim data analysis showing 90 percent or better efficacy, which is breathtakingly high. And it should be of great exciting re assurance to people who are worried, maybe the vaccines would work.

But let's not jump the gun. The FDA doing their job and they are very careful. And we want them to be above this. This is not going to be a rush through the data. They're going to work very carefully to be sure that everything is in order with safety and with efficacy and then they will make a judgment about whether both of these vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna, may be, in fact, entitled to emergency use authorization, EUA, which you will be hearing a lot about.

Estimates are that that may happen some time early to mid-December, at which point then doses can start to be administered. And that is what we are all waiting for. But nobody should assume that, that means, okay, were done, because it would take many months to have sufficient doses and to get them delivered for our country to be past this very difficult time. And in the meantime, going into a very dark period here with a lot of cases happening every day, we need to double down on everything we're doing to try to prevent further spread.

BLITZER: And will there be enough of the vaccine available as quickly as necessary? Moderna and Pfizer, assuming they get the emergency use authorization, how quickly will that be made available to the American public?

COLLINS: So, Operation Warp Speed put into place this whole plan to do manufacturing even before the approval of any of these six vaccines that are being studied. And that's never been done before. The American public, through their tax paying, have covered the cost of that, but it was a really good idea. That means that if these two vaccines do get approval, emergency use authorization, there will be about 40 million doses ready to be delivered in December.

Now, keep in mind both of these vaccines require two doses for each person who gets it, so that's 20 million people that can be immunized, and we will need to make sure that is utilized for the highest risk people. And there's a lot of discussion right now about exactly how to make those priorities stick. And then there will be more doses coming each month after that and there's other vaccines that may get approved subsequently.

The goal, the hope would be that by April, we really start to see a lot of people getting immunized, and certainly by the summer, we would hope to have most of America actually immune to this and we could start to think about getting back to life as normal.

That, of course, is going to require Americans to decide if they want this vaccine. And we have another issue there, of course. But my hope is now with more data and with the reassurance that this is being done in a highly independent, not political way that people will begin to trust that this is something that they will want to take advantage. I know I will. BLITZER: I know I will too. But what happens if half of the country decides it's potentially dangerous, side effects or whatever, they don't want to get vaccinated? What happens then?

COLLINS: Well, Wolf, that would be one of the greater tragedies of our supposedly technological society, if we have this point where the data shows that the vaccine is safe, that doesn't cause side effects, maybe a sore arm, and it's effective, and yet a lot of people say, no, not for me, then this whole epidemic of COVID-19 could go on and on and on.

[18:40:01]

We have a chance with this kind of science to be able to put that in the rearview mirror, but only if we all decide we're going to take part.

BLITZER: As you know, the formal transition process, and I've known you for a long time, and you've been involve in government for a long time, the formal transition process, Dr. Collins, hasn't begun yet. The president-elect, Joe Biden, says more people may die, his words, may die if President Trump doesn't start cooperating with the process. What do you think? Do you agree with that?

COLLINS: Well, I know that everything we've done so far on COVID-19 that's made progress is depended upon collaboration and openness about everything we're doing. And that's my goal as well. And so anything that gets in the way of that troubles me greatly. We have a crisis.

People are dying. We should do nothing except actually inform everybody who needs to know about what decisions have been made and what further decisions have to be made in order to make the best of this very difficult situation. So, yes, I am troubled by anything that's blocking that.

BLITZER: Yes, they should start cooperating.

Your colleague, Dr. Fauci, who technically works for you at NIH, he says he hasn't had any contact with President-elect Biden or his incoming team of experts and sort of impressive team of experts that Biden has assembled. You probably know almost all of them. Have you, Dr. Collins, spoken to Biden or anyone on his team yet?

COLLINS: I have not. I handed up on a panel with Lou Borio, who is one of the members of the coronavirus task force for President-elect Biden, and we had an interesting slightly careful conversation in the midst of a virtual public session. But other than that, I've had no contact.

BLITZER: Let's talk about Thanksgiving, which is coming up, and Christmas and Hanukkah are coming up. Health experts are warning that people who are infected on Thanksgiving could be, God forbid, buried by Christmas. It's a very, very dire warning. Tell us about you personally and your family, Dr. Collins, how are you going to be dealing with these holidays that are coming up? I'm sure the American public wants to know. COLLINS: Yes, and I'm glad you're asking, Wolf, because this is a critical decision and people need to be deciding right about now, if they haven't already. How are they going to keep themselves and their families safe at this time of great peril?

If you look at the slope of that curve that's happening right now of the number of new cases and the number of new hospitalizations, it's substantially steeper than anything we saw back in the spring with New York and New Jersey or in the summer with the southeast. This is significantly worse. It's moving faster. It is basically putting everybody in the country at risk.

And I would say, therefore, we all have to consider this as a special year where the usual activities really have to be rethought. We know that most of the spread that's happening right now is actually happening in small gatherings that families are holding or bars that need basically at this point to be closing down because they're not helping.

We can keep our economy going if we will do some simple things in terms of wearing masks and avoiding those kinds of gatherings indoors. But I just would appeal to anybody who is listening, if you care about your family, your friends, you would want do something for them if they're in trouble. We're all in trouble. And, in fact, this is potentially a life-threatening situation for our whole country.

The good news is you can do something about it, which is you can avoid those gatherings. My family will not be together this year for the first time in 27 years, just be my wife and me in our bubble, but we'll have a nice Zoom gathering, I suspect, to see how everybody is doing. So do the right things.

This thing looks like a mask. It's actually a medical device that can be lifesaving. Think of it that way. You wouldn't hold back on that if you thought you could help somebody. Keep those distances where they need to be, six feet or more, avoid those indoor gatherings, wash your hands.

At this point, we got a few months before the vaccines come to the rescue. We want to save as many lives as we can in that interval and that's really up to all of us. Don't expect somebody else to tell what you to do. Just decide to make it your priority.

BLITZER: Just do it. It will save lives in the process. Dr. Collins, thank you so much for everything you and your colleagues are doing. We are so grateful. I appreciate it very much. Stay safe out there.

COLLINS: You too. Stay safe, Wolf. Good to be with you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

Senator Lindsey Graham goes on the defensive as the Republican secretary of state in Georgia is accusing him of seeking to throw out legally cast ballots.

And does President Trump deserve credit for the new progress in developing a COVID-19 vaccine? We'll have a report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:49:20]

BLITZER: Republican Senator Lindsey Graham is responding to an allegation from Georgia's Republican secretary of state who told me the senator urged him to find ways to throw out legally cast ballots.

Our senior congressional correspondent Manu Raju is up on Capitol Hill.

Manu, you had a chance to speak with Senator Graham. Tell our viewers what he told you about this very serious accusation.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Serious accusation coming from a Republican election official but he denies what the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger told you yesterday, Wolf. He says that he was simply asking questions about how the state's mail-in voting system works and how they verify signatures on these mail-in ballots just as this hand recount is taking place.

[18:50:01]

He also told me he spoke not just with the Georgia election official but also the Nevada and Arizona officials. And, of course, those states also were carried by Joe Biden. Three states that Joe Biden carried President Trump's close ally raising questions with these election officials about exactly what's happening in their states.

Now, Graham is saying this is all part of an effort to understand what happened and determine whether or not additional actions need to be taken to safeguard the elections.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Very concerned about it. And if you're going to continue to vote by mail that we need to know what systems work and what don't. It's up to the people of Georgia and I think I have every right in the world to reach out and say, how does it work?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: He's gotten some blowback because he is the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman. He doesn't have oversight over this issue but is still investigating something that the president has raised concern about possible fraud in these states when there is no allegation to support it. But Lindsey Graham himself, even though he has not acknowledged Joe Biden won the election, did acknowledge Kamala Harris's presence on the Senate floor earlier today, Wolf.

He actually gave her a fist bump as he approached her. He told me later when I asked him, what did he say to her, he said he's just saying hello. I haven't seen her in a while. If it works out and they make it I told her I wished her well and will try to work if we can and we'll know in a month or so if not less, if that's the case, Wolf. BLITZER: A lot of Republican senators congratulating her privately, refusing to say anything publicly. Is that right?

RAJU: Yeah, that seems to be the case. I saw Senator Tim Scott, Mike Rounds, James Lankford, all congratulating Kamala Harris but they have not yet said that she is the vice president-elect.

BLITZER: All right. Manu Raju, doing what he always does up on Capitol Hill and doing it excellently.

Thank you so much for joining us.

RAJU: Thank you.

BLITZER: Just ahead, we take a closer look at how much credit the Trump administration is due after these promising results from two coronavirus vaccine candidates.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:56:40]

BLITZER: The Trump administration is claiming credit for the very rapid development of two very promising coronavirus vaccine candidates. But how responsible is the president for these breakthroughs?

CNN's Sara Murray is looking into that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A president keen on congratulating himself for breakthroughs that didn't exist --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have the best testing in the world.

Hydroxychloroquine. Try it.

We're rounding the corner on the pandemic. OK?

MURRAY: -- finally has something to take credit for. A coronavirus vaccine poised to reach Americans in record time. Health experts widely agree the Trump administration deserves credit for putting forth a national vaccine strategy and pouring billions into vaccine development and manufacturing.

KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, FORMER HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: There's no question that Operation Warp Speed has been a great success getting to the point in a very rapid period of time of manufacturing a vaccine.

MURRAY: Both Pfizer and Moderna have reported stunning efficacy data for their coronavirus vaccines and the first vaccines could become available to health care workers as early as December, by far the fastest a vaccine has ever been developed. Experts say the Trump administration's biggest contribution was its

willingness to invest in new vaccine technologies, foot the bill for clinical studies, and simultaneously pay to manufacture the vaccines before it was clear they would work.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: In the face of a pandemic where a thousand people a day or more are dying, then you do some things like that that are un-orthodox and a little bit risky. But it looks as though those bets are going to pay off.

MURRAY: Trump tweeting this week for those great historians please remember these great discoveries all took place on my watch.

The president pressed for even faster results, hoping a vaccine would bolster his re-election bid.

TRUMP: I've spoken to Pfizer. I've spoken to all of the people that you have to speak to. We have great -- Moderna, Johnson & Johnson and others. They can go faster than that by a lot.

MURRAY: But vaccine experts believe his bluster had no impact on the timeline and may have even undermined public trust by making the vaccine process appear politicized.

DR. MONCEF SLAOUI, SCIENTIFIC HEAD, OPERATION WARP SPEED: The president has never been very actively involved as I said many times. We've had no interference one way or the other.

MURRAY: The next big test? Getting shots into Americans' arms. A complicated process Trump is making even harder in his refusal to concede and allow the presidential transition to begin.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: More people may die if we don't coordinate. A vaccine is important. It's of little use until you're vaccinated.

MURRAY: Health officials like Slaoui and Dr. Anthony Fauci say they'd like to begin coordinating with the Biden team but they're not allowed to do so.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: If you don't have a smooth transition you would not optimize whatever efforts you're doing right now. It's kind of like a relay race in which you're passing the baton.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MURRAY: Now, one of the tragic trade-offs of the situation is the fact that the virus was spreading unchecked may have helped these vaccine trials move faster than they would have otherwise. But obviously, this comes at the expense of the health and lives of so many Americans who needed a comprehensive approach to the entire pandemic, not just the vaccine effort, Wolf.

BLITZER: Can't wait to start getting these vaccines. All right. Sara Murray, thank you very much.

And to our viewers, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @WolfBlitzer. Tweet the show @CNNSitRoom.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.

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