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The Situation Room
Biden: Trump's Election Fraud Claims Show "Incredible Irresponsibility," are "Damaging" & Send "Horrible Message"; Biden Says He's Selected Treasury Secretary; Klain: Bringing the Country Together Won't be Easy; Trump's "Baseless Claims" Make it Harder; California Issues Overnight Curfew To Slow COVID Spread; CDC Recommends Against Thanksgiving Travel As Cases Surge; When Will All Americans Be Able To Get A Vaccine. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired November 19, 2020 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: You can tweet the show with @theleadcnn.
Our coverage on CNN continues right now. Thanks for watching. I'll see you tomorrow.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in the Situation Room.
We're following breaking news. President-elect Joe Biden just wrapping up a virtual meeting with a bipartisan group of governors about the worsening coronavirus pandemic here in the United States. And he addressed President Trump's refusal to concede in his attempts to actually try to overturn the election saying it shows and I'm quoting Biden right now, "incredible irresponsibility." He says it is "damaging", and send, I'm quoting again, a horrible, "horrible message" about the country.
In just a few moments, I'll be joined by Biden's incoming White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain.
But as the next administration works to battle the pandemic, President Trump is intensifying his attack on democracy here in the United States. He's invited a group of Republican state lawmakers from the state of Michigan to the White House in a rather brazen attempt to try to interfere with election results and undo the will of the voters.
At the same time. The President's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, spewed lies and bogus claims of conspiracy and election fraud and then nearly unhinged, 90-minute news conference. All of this exactly one week before Thanksgiving.
And the CDC has just issued a new recommendation advising against holiday travel as COVID cases are surging across the United States.
As of this hour, more than 11.6 million Americans have been infected. And more than 251,000 Americans have lost their lives to the virus.
Let's begin with the breaking news right now. Our Senior Washington Correspondent, Jeff Zeleny is in Wilmington, Delaware for us a Jeff, we just heard from the President-elect, he updated what's going on following that meeting he had with a bipartisan group of governors. Tell our viewers what's going on because this is an extremely delicate moment.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there is no question, this was the most blunt we have heard President-elect Joe Biden talk about the stakes of the election and the consequences of the President not accepting the outcome. And the Republican Party to a large degree not accepting the outcome.
We have seen several stages of Joe Biden over the last two weeks. First, he said he was going to give the President time to accept his defeat. Well, it's clear that was not a strategy that is working.
So these words just a short time ago, after the President-elect and the Vice President-elect were meeting with the bipartisan group of the nation's governors, he had this to say about President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think they're witnessing an incredible irresponsibility. Incredibly damaging messages being sent to the rest of the world about how democracy functions. And I think it is -- well, I don't know his motive, but I just think it's totally irresponsible.
No, I'm not concerned the vast majority, the American people, they've already all the polling data is indicated all the Republicans who worry about it, it's higher, but over 78 percent of American people believe it's without question is legitimate.
And I just think it's -- and I think most of the Republicans I've spoken to, including some governors, think this is the ability. It's not a -- it sends a horrible message about who we are as a country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENY: So he said he has spoken with Republicans. But Wolf, many Republican leaders, including most importantly, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, simply has not said out loud that he believes Joe Biden has won this election. So it's very much an open question. If the Washington that President-elect Biden talked about, and the Washington he talks about wanting to unify still exists in this current era.
But Wolf, we have seen a steady increase of discussion here from Joe Biden about the consequences of this. This was the strongest we've heard so far.
BLITZER: I thought it was significant, Jeff, that the President-elect met with a group of Republican and Democratic governors, 10 governors, in fact, five Democrats, five Republicans about bipartisan steps, what they can all do to fight this coronavirus. There you can see the Democratic governors and Republican governors who attended to this virtual meeting with the President-elect and the Vice President-elect. Can he win over more Republicans? Because that is so critical at this moment.
ZELENY: Wolf, it is critical, and it was important that this was the first real bipartisan meeting that we have seen President-elect Biden have since being projected the winner nearly two weeks ago. So this was the Executive Council, the leaders of the National Governors Association, and across the board a meeting of five Democrats and five Republicans, they sat and talked about not politics, but what is at stake here in this country with the rising coronavirus threat. They talked about what governors need on the front lines, PPE.
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Now in this, the President-elect also talked about many things that he is already doing. He said he is going to implement the Defense Production Act to increase testing in this country, to increase the production of PPE. So he certainly was, you know, getting some feedback from these Republican and Democratic governors, as well as saying as what he is going to do when he takes office.
But he said he simply cannot wait. His transition team needs access to this data and information right now at this point.
So, Wolf, it was an extraordinary briefing, but more than that, it was a recognition that Republicans are coming to terms with the fact that he won the election. That is not really in dispute, it's just that people are still giving the President. They're afraid of him and his supporters, quite frankly, largely because of those Georgia Senate seats.
But he also made a bit of news when he said he has settled on his Treasury secretary, of course, a key position here, as the nation also grapples with these major economic challenges as well. He said that position will be announced either right before Thanksgiving or right after Thanksgiving.
We do know, Wolf, that one of the leading contenders is Lael Brainard, she was an Undersecretary of Treasury in the Obama administration, a respected member if she would be picked to be the first woman ever to be selected as Treasury Secretary in the United States. Wolf.
BLITZER: Yes, the President-elect also said that the person he has chosen and he and the Vice President-elect they've made up their minds. I said, this person will be accepted by both the moderates and the progressives, the more liberals in the Democratic Party, which I thought was very, very significant as well.
All right, Jeff Zeleny, standby. We'll get back to you.
Let's go to the White House right now. Our White House Correspondent Boris Sanchez is joining us.
Boris, alarm bells are going off as the President is attempting to actually overturn railroad the results of this election. What are we learning about this extraordinary move by President Trump reaching out to Republican state lawmakers in Michigan? BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, to call it unprecedented is really an understatement. Wolf. CNN has learned that the President reached out to two members of the Wayne County Board of canvassers. Remember on Tuesday night, these two Republicans objected to certifying the results in Wayne County for Joe Biden. They ultimately relented and certify the results. President Trump apparently calling them they now want to rescind those votes, even though there's really no legal mechanism toward doing so.
We've also learned that President Trump has reached out to top Republican lawmakers in Michigan to invite them to the White House extensively to try to court them to change the certification rules in that state. Even though several top Republican lawmakers there have already said they are not straying from the process.
We should note the Trump legal team actually dropped their lawsuit in the state of Michigan today. They are flailing at this point.
Rudy Giuliani held a press conference along with other Trump lawyers, where without evidence they made all sorts of claims about election fraud. At one point, Venezuela and George Soros were mentioned as potential culprits. Perhaps that press conference is best summarized by Chris Krebs. Remember, he's that DHS official that President Trump fired after he said that the 2020 election was the most secure in history.
Take a look at this tweet, Krebs writing, "That press conference was the most dangerous one hour and 45 minutes of television in American history and possibly the craziest. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you are lucky."
One final point, Wolf, our colleague, Dana Bash, spoke with someone close to President Trump who revealed that Trump recently told an ally that he knows that he lost the 2020 election, but he doesn't want to acknowledge it. He wants to keep fighting because he wants to hurt Democrats by questioning the legitimacy of the election because he feels Democrats did the same to him in 2016. Wolf.
BLITZER: Yes, this is so, so dangerous to American democracy what's going on right now. Hard to believe.
All right, Boris, thank you very much. Boris Sanchez at the White House.
Let's get some more all the breaking news. Joining us now, the incoming White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain.
Ron, thanks so much for joining us. Congratulations, I assume, congratulations on this new assignment you've been given by the President-elect of the United States.
But given everything we've just reported about the current administration's truly unprecedented actions, how concerned is President-elect Biden about what the state of American democracy might be like on January 20 when he takes office? RON KLAIN, INCOMING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: First of all, Wolf, thanks for having me. Good to be here. The President-elect not concerned about the state of democracy. He's going to be sworn in at 12 noon on January 20. This process is working its way out.
He is concerned, though, I think all Americans should be concerned about the way in which President Trump is behaving in these final days in office. Instead of doing what he should do under the law, facilitating an orderly transition, helping to save lives in the fight against COVID, the President is thrashing around with these PR stunts, these ridiculous allegations. They're baseless. He's zero for 30 on lawsuits, he filed 30 lawsuits, he's lost every single one of them because there's no basis for the claims.
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Donald Trump should do his job. Joe Biden's busy doing his job right now, as you talked about earlier. He met with bipartisan governors to get an assessment of where we are in the COVID crisis, and most importantly what we need to do to get it under control. He's preparing to take over on January 20. It's a shame that the President isn't doing his job as well.
BLITZER: For months, as you know, Ron, we were warned that President Trump would not necessarily go quietly if he lost this election. Is the situation right now what Mr. Trump and his allies are doing even worse than you and the President-elect had feared?
KLAIN: Look, I think we have long learned to expect the worst from Donald Trump, and that's what we're getting. And we've learned that he has no interest in the norms of our democracy or in anything that's productive. And so I think we're seeing the kinds of stunts we expected.
But Donald Trump doesn't get to decide if Joe Biden is president or not. The American people side it -- decided. His twitter feed doesn't determine the outcome of the election. The voters determined the outcome of the election.
Joe Biden got 80 million votes, the most votes any candidate history's ever gotten. He got 306 electoral votes. That's the number that Donald Trump called a landslide when he got that same number back in 2016.
So, the President's hysterics, the President's actions, the President's sons don't change the reality. The Joe Biden Kamala Harris won this election and they will be taking office in January.
BLITZER: Yes, in the national popular vote Biden gotten a nearly almost exactly 6 million more votes than Trump got almost 6 million is about to be more than 6 billion votes in the national popular vote, they're still counting votes in some parts of the country.
Ron, what's your single biggest fear about what President Trump might do, might do between now and the inauguration?
KLAIN: Well, Wolf, I think it's what you heard the President-elect talk about today, which is, what he's doing is really encouraging or betting or not discouraging his administrator of General Services from failing to do her job. Her job is to ascertain who was the apparent victor in the election? There's no question, Joe Biden is the apparent victor in the election.
And as a result of that non ascertainment, our transition doesn't have access to national security information, the highest level of information. We don't have access to the agencies. We can't have meetings with experts on how to do this vaccine distribution. We can't learn about all the plans that are there. We can't help work together to make that a seamless transition.
And of course, there won't be background checks for the nominees, the President is going to select which will slow down the confirmation process, which adds to this problem of not having an orderly and seamless transition.
So, you know what that what the President's doing with his administrator of General Services, is failing to do their job, failing to follow the law so that we can have what the American people want, which is an orderly transition from the outgoing president to the incoming one.
BLITZER: As we noted, you know, Ron, despite the President-elect sweeping victory 362-32 in the Electoral College, a lead, as I said, some 6 million in the popular vote. It's very disturbing that 70 percent of Republicans, according to a new Monmouth University poll, say Biden won the election because of voter fraud. How damage -- damaging is that and how will the President-elect address that deep divide that currently exists?
KLAIN: Well, look, Wolf, I think one thing, you know, Joe Biden ran on a campaign of trying to heal the country and try to bring the country together. That's not going to be easy. We've been torn apart brutally the past four years. And the President Trump does something everyday to exacerbate those divisions, including these lies, these baseless claims of voter fraud that every independent sources rejected, the 30 courts have all unanimously rejected.
So, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have a job ahead of them. They knew they had that job ahead of them. They knew that would be a struggle. They knew it would be hard work.
Now, they got to work on that this week. They began the week by meeting with business and labor leaders together to find common ground between the business and labor. They met today with Republican and Democratic governors to find common ground on the economy in COVID. This is not going to be easy to fix what's broken in our economy. But that doesn't mean Joe Biden is any less determined to take that on.
He is determined to take it on. And I believe he will be successful.
BLITZER: Yes, I thought it was impressive that there were five Democratic governors and five Republican governors at that virtual meeting. But what specific steps has the President-elect or indeed anyone on the Biden team, including you, take it to try to persuade the President or his Republican allies in Congress to change their current posture and begin this absolutely essential transition process?
KLAIN: Well, we continue to, you know, kind of raise the dialogue, raise the conversation, raise the pressure around this idea of ascertainment, this idea of getting the access to the government agencies, whatnot.
I think the most important thing we can do, Wolf is to do our jobs instead of the public see that the President-elect is doing what he's supposed to be doing. He picked 10 senior White House officials, myself and nine others. It's an incredibly talented and diverse team.
[17:15:08]
He's going to add to that. We're going to have some more officials for the White House tomorrow. He's continuing to interview and progress on his selection of a cabinet. Making some decisions, we're going to start to roll those out around Thanksgiving as the President-elect said.
He's meeting with leaders in both parties. He's talking to people in all kinds of walks of life.
You know, Wolf, yesterday while the President of the United States in the middle of a crisis was busy calling local election officials, trying to get them to avert the election in Michigan, Joe Biden did a call with frontline health care workers to hear their stories, to hear what they need, to hear what they're going through. And I think continuing to drive this contrast, continuing to do his duty, I think is the best way to put pressure on Donald Trump to start to do his.
BLITZER: I know you're not going to name names, but we did hear the President-elect, say he's decided who's going to be the Treasury secretary, someone who's acceptable for moderates and more liberal Democrats. He says that may be announced either before or after Thanksgiving. What other cabinet positions you anticipate we'll hear about in the coming days?
KLAIN: Well, well, one thing I'm going to do as the staff person is not getting in front of the President on making these announcements. So, he is hard at work on this. He's talking to people every day, he's consulting broadly. As he said, you'll start to see at least one if not more of these cabinet announcements, right before or right after Thanksgiving.
That's the same pace that President-elect Obama and Vice President Biden set when they took office in 2008. We're on the same track, the same kind of timeline, getting probably about two dozen White House officials selected this month, and then beginning to announce cabinet members right before or right after Thanksgiving.
So, I'll let him do the naming of names. What I can tell you is this process is well underway. But again, as I said before, the next step in the process for the cabinet is Senate confirmation. And a part of that is you know, Wolf, is having background investigations from the FBI on these cabinet members that can't go forward until the General Services administrator ascertains that Joe Biden is the winner.
So, this is a block not just to our transition, but to the Senate doing its constitutional duty as well, that just another kink in the road. We're going to do our jobs, we're going to move forward. But really be great if the GSA would follow the law.
BLITZER: Will, have you directly reached out to her, the administrator of the General Services Administration?
KLAIN: We made our position very clear. You know, obviously, we hope she would do the right thing, she should do the right thing.
And as a President-elect said, all the options are on the table here for ways to proceed. But, you know, the onus is on her to follow the law.
The law doesn't say she designates who's president. It says she designates who the apparent victor is. And I just don't know that there could be any debate at this point in time, or with all we know that Joe Biden is clearly the apparent victor of the election.
BLITZER: Did she take your call or somebody's call from the Biden transition? Did you actually speak to her?
KLAIN: We have not spoken to her. We've communicated a number of ways, we're continuing to make this case to press on the GSA. And I'm going to leave it at that.
BLITZER: We've learned, Ron, that some Trump administration officials have begun quietly to reach out to the Biden team. How much contact has there actually been between current Trump officials and your team?
KLAIN: None Wolf, there's been a kind of the official conduct -- contact, I'm sorry, the official contact that comes from the Trump transition designee, that's Chris Liddell, the deputy chief of staff to our transition officials. But we are not allowed to, we are not having contact with current people serving in the Trump administration, other than that very narrow flow of information.
I think there have been reports Wolf that former Trump officials, people who are no longer in the government have reached out to us and they have, they're helping with the transition, as are former officials in the Obama administration and other administrations.
But former officials don't cut it. I mean, they're very helpful. They're amazing people. They're quite knowledgeable.
But what we need is not late information that's out of date, we need the most current information, the current plans. That's why again, we need access to what the law says. I mean, that that's the thing, Wolf, there's a law that was voted on by a bipartisan majority in Congress that said, in the event of a transition, this is how it should proceed. And what the Trump administration is doing is just defying those legal requirements.
BLITZER: I know that there's often here in Washington, you and I have been in Washington for a while back channel, unofficial contacts that are going on, I won't press you on that, though. What about Republican congressional leadership? Has the President-elect, had any discussions specifically with the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell?
KLAIN: He has not yet talked with Senator McConnell. As you know, Wolf, they've known each other for 30 years, when the time is right for them to talk. They will not need an introductory coffee or get to know you session, that's for sure.
He has talked to some Republicans on Capitol Hill. I'm not going to name names. They've been very kind to have these conversations and talk about ways they can work together going forward.
[17:20:02]
But -- so there is outreach to Republicans on the Hill. And as, again, as we talked about throughout this interview, outreach to Republican governors today directly from the President-elect to those Republican governors.
BLITZER: Mitch McConnell and Joe Biden, we know they've worked together for a long time in the U.S. Senate and then when bide was Vice President, United States for eight years. Will McConnell have any role in approving potential cabinet nominees before they're announced? Will you run the names by him, because as you know, those nominees, they have to be confirmed by the Senate?
KLAIN: No, I think look, I think the historical role here is the President nominates, the Senate decides whether or not to offer its advice and consent when not to confirm those nominees.
There's consultation, sometimes on Supreme Court nominations. The Press elect said he's going to do that. But on these executive branch nominations, these are the choices for the President to make and then the Senate needs to act on those choices.
And what I do know is that we will bring forward a cabinet of excellence, cabinet of diversity, a cabinet professionalism. I think people are going to see a restoration of what they expect from their government, people who know what they're doing in the jobs where they need to know what they're doing. And I hope the Senate will recognize that and confirm those individuals when they're brought forward.
BLITZER: The outgoing Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar, told me last week here in the Situation Room, that your plan for dealing with the coronavirus in his words, is eerily similar to what the Trump administration is already doing. What specific changes will the American people see starting on January 20? KLAIN: Well, first of all, Wolf, they're going to see a dramatic ramping up in the testing, it's something that the President-elect made very clear throughout the entire campaign is going to create a pandemic testing board to get us from where we are on testing to where we need to be.
We're going to see a nationwide masking mandate that the President- elect talked about throughout the campaign. The possibility of saving 100,000 lives in a few months by getting people wearing masks coast to coast while we wait for the vaccine to be fully rolled out.
We're going to see providing the kind of protective gear that people need to and their businesses and their workplaces to be able to conduct business safely and for people to be able to participate in the economy safely. We're going to see a real effort to get the schools the help they need.
And we have this concept about schools being open and closed. The problem is schools don't have the resources, they need to be equipped well, to teach children in a safe way. We're going to get that done.
So we're going to see a whole bunch of changes. I mean, with all due respect to Secretary Azar, he and the Trump administration has been in charge of this for 10 months, 250,000 Americans have died, the problems getting worse, not better. Just months after Vice President Pence told us there would never be a second wave, we're now in a third wave, really.
And so the Trump administration has failed in this response. I think you're going to see a very different approach of Biden ministration. And, again, where we are right now at this moment, is the need to have a transition between that administration and the one that's taking over on January 20.
KLAIN: The President-elect just said -- just told reporters, there will be no national shut down. He says the new administration will shut down the virus, not the economy. So, give me some specific, what exactly does he mean?
KLAIN: What he means is that the way to get our economy going, again, is to fight the virus, and not have these pointless debates about these like mask wearing and the politicization of mask wearing. So what we're going to do is we're going to get businesses the help they need, so they can operate safely, we're going to get them protective gear for their workers, shielding in retail settings. We're going to get them obviously masks, gloves, all the things they need.
By having a nationwide masking mandate, we're going to make it -- we're going to reduce the spread of the virus and try to help get this thing under control while we're awaiting for the vaccine to be rolled out. We're also going to provide economic assistance to businesses so that they can keep their workers on payroll.
I mean even businesses that are operating, Wolf, are forced by many rules to reduce the number of customers, they can have at one time, reduce the capacity of those businesses. We're going to get them economic aid, help get them through that.
This is a false choice between controlling the virus and having economic activity. If we do the right things, we can do both. And that's what a Biden-Harris administration is going to do.
BLITZER: The incoming White House Chief of Staff, Ron Klain, thanks so much for joining us. I know you got a lot going on. You're incredibly busy.
We're grateful to you for spending a few moments here in the Situation Room. You've got a new situation room that you're familiar with down the street from us. I know you'll be spending a lot of time over there as well.
Thanks so much, and good luck.
KLAIN: Absolutely. Thank you, Wolf. Appreciate it.
BLITZER: All right. So we're following all the breaking news as President Trump continues his efforts to undermine the results of the presidential election with totally baseless claims of fraud, claims President-elect Biden says show in his words, "incredible irresponsibility."
Let's discuss what we just heard all that's going on with the New York Times, Maggie Haberman, and our Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger.
So Gloria, let me get your thoughts. First of all, this is such a sensitive moment we're seeing right now because by all indications the President of the United States, Rudy Giuliani, what they're trying to do is undermine U.S. confidence the American public's confidence in our democratically held elections.
[17:25:10]
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, that's exactly what's going on. And Ron Klain didn't want to go out on a limb and actually say that. I mean, you heard the President-elect today call it irresponsible.
But I think what Ron was trying to do was really show the difference in the approaches of these two men. He, first of all, refer to the hysterics instance, of the President and his people. I think he was clearly referring to the Rudy Giuliani press conference, if that's what you want to call it today. It was really conspiracy theater.
And then he said, look at what Joe Biden was doing, while the President of the United States was calling local election officials in Michigan to try and change the outcome of this election in some way, shape or form, Joe Biden was meeting with local health care providers in a virtual call.
And so what he was trying to say is, look, Joe Biden is doing his job trying to become the sitting president, and look at what Donald Trump is doing.
BLITZER: How do you see all this, Maggie? What's unfolding right now, it's hard to believe, in fact, what's unfolding.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It is hard to believe it, Wolf, it's easy to believe because what we have repeatedly with this President is there's no bottom.
Last week the President was sounding, you know, he was asking advisors about possibility of states picking electors who would favor him. It did not sound like a serious discussion by Friday when he had lost a case in Arizona or had to drop a case in Arizona, that his campaign was bringing. He reacted very angrily, put Rudy Giuliani in charge of everything.
Giuliani has been feeding him conspiracy theories. He has been talking to him about Dominion voting machines and applaud allegedly connected to Hugo Chavez, who died seven years ago, to rig the U.S. election. I mean, this is these are these are fanciful things.
And it all took place, as Gloria correctly said, a kind of a conspiracy theater press conference, but it's got very dangerous and serious ramifications.
The President is going to continue saying these things. We've been talking about this for weeks, but he is now taking it to a new level to see just how far he can push it. And inviting state legislators from Michigan to the White House tomorrow is in itself a pressure campaign.
BLITZER: You know, Gloria, we heard from Ron Klain, the incoming White House Chief of Staff, say that bringing the country together after January 20 is by no means going to be easy, given what's going on right now. But he said they're going to do their best to try to do so. This is an enormous challenge when so much of the country simply believes the election result was a fraud.
BORGER: Well, 70 percent of Republicans believe the election result was a fraud. And you have the President now continually stirring the pot. He wants to keep the country divided.
I spoke to a source today who has spoken with the President. And the President refused to even consider that perhaps he ought to let this die down.
The source said, well, maybe it'll die down in 10 days, two weeks, when we see some of these deadlines coming up. But when he suggested to the President that you don't have to concede, just start working with the transition. The President said, no, and you're absolutely wrong. I do not have to do this, because I got more than 70 million votes.
So that's where the President's head is right now. Whether he believes it, or he's just trying to do it to spite the Democrats? We don't know. But that is really where he is.
And I don't know, and Maggie you can speak to this, when or if that will change. And maybe he'll just disappear from the scene. And he will never concede. I don't expect him to actually. BLITZER: What do you think, Maggie?
HABERMAN: I don't think he's going to concede for weeks. I don't think he's going to concede, which doesn't mean that I don't think that once there -- look, Wolf, there are deadlines that are coming up as Gloria has said. In December, there is going to be a vote in terms of who is going to -- who is actually the president-elect. These are deadlines by which it's going to be very hard for the General Services Administration to ignore what's happening and pretend that there shouldn't be a transition.
I expect all of that will happen. But there's going to be a huge amount of time lost for an incoming administration in the middle of a pandemic during a porous atmosphere that any transition is. And all of this is very problematic. I have had similar conversations with sources Gloria is citing about people talking to the President trying to get him to budge. And he just won't.
BLITZER: You know, Maggie, you cover the White House --
HABERMAN: But doesn't mean -- but, Wolf, that doesn't mean he won't be.
BORGER: That's right.
HABERMAN: I think he's going to -- Yes. I just don't think he's ever going to acknowledge that he lost.
BLITZER: You cover the President, Maggie. You've done an amazing job over these years covering the White House. He's basically, since the election I think it's fair to say, almost completely been invisible publicly. He's tweeting a lot, issuing those kinds of statements, but we haven't seen him, certainly hasn't answered reporters' questions.
[17:30:00]
Take us a little bit behind the scenes. What does this say to you, given the fact that, you know, he's raising questions about the election, but he's sort of invisible at the same time?
HABERMAN: It's interesting, Wolf. It shows you how much of the President, his rallies were, over the last 18 months, how much of the act of doing the job was either sort of, you know, talking about the coronavirus early on to the pandemic and then basically dropping that in favor of rallies. But what he is doing is watching a lot of television which know is not new for him, except the television is on almost all the time in the background.
He is now just sort of sitting in front of it, working the phones, stewing. He is frustrated. He's not screaming at people. But he's very unhappy and adamant that in some conversations that, you know, this election was somehow taken from him. I don't think he is eager to appear publicly because he doesn't have something great to say. If you think about the time we saw him recently, which is at a vaccine announcement in the Rose Garden, he seemed defeated. He seemed like he did right after that Tulsa rally where, you know, a fraction of the people he expected to attend, showed up.
And so I think he doesn't want to be seen publicly while he is being seen as a loser. He is looking for something he can point to as a win.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, I had somebody who knows him very well say to me, he cannot be seen as a loser. That is the death penalty for him, I was told. And he can't face up to it. So he talked about a rigged election, before votes were cast or while people were voting by mail. And he is stuck with the same storyline. He is not going to get off this storyline because he can never admit to himself or to anybody else that he has lost.
And so while a lot of his staff may believe that he is losing and he may in his own head understand what's going on, he will never publicly say that. It is beyond him. That is why concession is beyond him. That is why being gracious is beyond him. Maybe he's thinking about 2024. Who knows? But he -- you know, there is no sort of gracious mic drop coming from Donald Trump. He will just go off and Joe Biden will become president and be sworn in on January 20th.
BLITZER: Maggie, does the President not worry about the fact that the whole world is watching what's going on in the United States right now the greatest democracy in the world? They're looking at what's going on. And they're shaking their heads, whether U.S. allies or adversaries, people all over the world are wondering, what's happening to the U.S. democracy right now? Does the President not care about that?
HABERMAN: Does not care, Wolf. That has never been something that he cares about. He sees everything through the lens of how it impacts him personally, and he right now is wounded. And that's what he's processing. He is not processing the impact on U.S. democracy, on how the U.S. is seen around the globe. And frankly, Wolf, how this is beginning to damage him how he's handling this because expectation that he's going to be maintaining this very forceful presence post presidency that diminishes every day, he looks this go on.
BORGER: You know, people are also saying to him, this is going to hurt your brand. To your point --
HABERMAN: Exactly.
BORGER: -- this is going to hurt your brand when you get out and you try and monetize this. And what if you need to borrow money, et cetera, et cetera and his response is I got more than 70 million votes.
HABERMAN: Yes, exactly.
BORGER: It's not going to damage me. They are not going to damage me. And there's nothing anyone can say to that. That's just how he's thinking.
BLITZER: All right, Gloria and Maggie excellent conversation. Thank you very, very much. We'll continue this conversation, of course, down the road. But we're going to continue to follow the breaking news right now with more on President Trump's attacks on American democracy as he seeks to actually try to overturn the election.
[17:33:48]
Plus, we'll get the latest on the CDC's urgent new warning about traveling around the Thanksgiving holiday as this pandemic here in the United States gets worse and worse.
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BLITZER: The breaking pandemic news tonight, the U.S. coronavirus death toll has now topped 251,000 people and more than 11.6 million Americans have been affected. CNN's Nick Watt is joining us from Los Angeles right now. Nick, a major new development out there in California, update our viewers.
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we just heard from L.A. County the most cases ever today in Los Angeles and we just heard from the state. From Saturday night, they are introducing what they're calling a limited stay at home order. It's basically a curfew 10:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. because the governor says cases are mounting here like never before. It's the same story across the country, stuff shutting down.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WATT (voice-over): Classrooms closed in New York City this morning, bars, indoor dining, gyms will likely follow.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: It's just a matter of time. And it's very likely to be in the next week or two.
WATT (voice-over): Starting Monday, every K through 12 School in Kentucky will also be online only.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D-KY): When addressing COVID-19, action is unpopular, but in action is deadly.
WATT (voice-over): Schools are emptying hospitals are filling up. Now nearly 80,000 COVID patients nationwide, never been hired, still.
DR. AUSTIN SIMONSON, INTERNAL MEDICINE SPECIALIST, SANFORD MEDICAL CENTER, SIOUX FALLS, SD: I have family members that deny it exists and it's hard to have that conversation with them.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Despite a quarter million deaths, despite more than 11 million infections, despite 150,000 new infections a day. They don't believe it's real. That is a real problem.
[17:40:02]
WATT (voice-over): More than a quarter million people have now been killed by COVID in this country, that's a fact, so as this.
ADM. BRETT GIROIR, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HEALTH, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: The end of the pandemic is in sight with the vaccines. That being said, on this will get worse.
WATT (voice-over): The CDC is now advising against Thanksgiving travel and celebrate very small.
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING CDC DIRECTOR: My parents live here in town. They live about a mile from my house. They're both 90. They're not coming for Thanksgiving.
WATT (voice-over): Maybe 20 million vulnerable Americans might now get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine in the next few months.
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The day after one of these vaccines is approved, we'll be shipping vaccines to the American people. And within a day after that, we'll be seeing those vaccines injected.
WATT (voice-over): This by the way the first White House Coronavirus Task Force briefing in more than four months.
PENCE: America has never been more prepared to combat this virus than we are today.
WATT (voice-over): Really? The U.S. is now adding on average over 160,000 new cases a day. So, hospitals will fill up, the death toll will rise. It's simple math.
DR. NATHAN HATTON, PULMONARY SPECIALIST, UNIVERSITY OF UTAH HOSPITAL: Every day you walk into work, someone is super sick, someone is potentially dying that day having those family meetings. And then even as I was driving home last night, I drove by one of our parks and there's ongoing, you know, practices for some sporting event.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WATT: So the CDC is advising against Thanksgiving travel, a lot of airlines have added flights to their schedule for Thanksgiving. So basically, the message is a lot of this is down to the individual to individual choices. As one CDC official put it around Thanksgiving and travel. What's at stake, he said, is maybe one of your older relatives getting sick or maybe dying over the holidays. Wolf?
BLITZER: This is also so sad. Nick Watt reporting for us, thank you very much.
Let's bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our chief medical correspondent. Sanjay, the White House just held a Coronavirus Task Force update as this pandemic is spiraling in the United States clearly out of control right now. The CDC now actually says we could see nearly 300,000 deaths by December 12th in just a few weeks. Is there any sign this rapid surge in the pandemic is slowing down? Or are we in for an extremely deadly winter?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, unfortunately, you know, this is one of those things that even if you were to just slam the brakes on right now, you would still see a surge in the number of cases. That's sort of the nature of exponential growth. And, you know, we've compared what's happening now to different surges throughout this pandemic. And what you see is a steeper curve. It's obviously the numbers are getting higher and higher.
And the concern right now is how long do you then stay at that peak? That's going to be the big question. The efforts that we have now may not stop the surge, Wolf, but it may reduce the length of that plateau. And that can be critically important. I mean, that could save a lot of lives, Wolf. But, you know, with a virus like this, it's kind of like a fast-moving ship through the ocean. It's hard to stop, you slam on the brakes, it still moves for a while before it eventually slows down, Wolf.
BLITZER: As you know, Sanjay, the CDC is now recommending against traveling for Thanksgiving as this virus is surging all across the country. Is that a warning that every single American needs to take seriously right now, irrespective of where they live in the country?
GUPTA: Yes, Wolf. You know, I think in the beginning, there was this desire to sort of parse out different parts of the country and say, look, you're OK, in this part of the country. If you're traveling to a hotspot, you may need to quarantine yourself. If you're coming from my hotspot, you know, people needed to take special precautions.
The problem is those sort of waves that moved around the country have sort of consolidated now into a large red spot, you know, a big hotspot. So it's concerning, really everywhere in the country, rural areas that have even lower population density than, you know, what we saw in New York or on the coasts, they have some of the highest death rates now in the country. So it is a concern.
And we also know better in terms of how this virus spreads. You know, we were talking about just sort of the public square being out in public. Now we know that there are specific locations where most of the viral spread occurs. And one of those is households. You know, people inside closely clustered, poor ventilation, masks likely to come off, people eating, drinking. It's all those same ingredients that make it a possible concern, Wolf.
BLITZER: And as it gets colder in this upcoming winter, it's going to be more difficult to hang out outside, to have dinner outside with friends.
GUPTA: Yes.
[17:45:00]
BLITZER: You're going to be stuck inside most of the time. Let's talk a little bit about some good news on the vaccine front, Sanjay. AstraZeneca just announced that their vaccine candidate generated a very strong immune response even in older adults who we all know are most vulnerable to the virus. Does that give you additional confidence that these vaccines, if finally approved, and we anticipate they will be approved very soon, we'll finally get this pandemic under control?
GUPTA: I mean, there's no question that all the news that we've heard about vaccines recently has been positive. I mean, we could have heard news, Wolf, that basically said as much as we had confidence in them, they didn't actually work in terms of preventing COVID. I think with regard to AstraZeneca, the idea that the immune system of an older person responds enough to the vaccine, to create this response, I think is really important, because sometimes older people's immune systems can be weakened.
The big test for AstraZeneca, as we've already seen with Moderna and Pfizer is, is it actually then effective in large populations of people? The laboratory data, this is phase two data you're talking about, Wolf, is very encouraging. But the phase three data is actually comparing large groups of people who get the vaccine, young people, old people, all sorts of different folks against people who are not receiving the vaccine. Does it actually prevent the disease?
It's encouraging from AstraZeneca's standpoint, very encouraging, from what we've seen from Moderna and Pfizer. And Wolf, we just heard at the task force briefing that within 24 hours, General Perna said after an emergency use authorization would be granted, if one is granted, they would start distributing this vaccine. So that's really, really fast, Wolf.
BLITZER: I'm ready to wait in line for that vaccine as soon as it's approved. Sanjay, thank you very, very much.
Coming up, we'll have the latest thought when you'll likely be able to get the coronavirus vaccine. Plus, we'll have more on the breaking news. President-elect Biden says he won't rule out legal action if President Trump continues to try to block the transition.
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[17:52:00]
BLITZER: Tonight, we're getting a clearer sense of the timing of when the coronavirus vaccines may be available to Americans. CNN's Brian Todd is working the story for us. Brian, it will be, I'm told a rather long process is that right?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It will at least be a process that requires patience on the part of all of us, Wolf. You know, for a vaccine, this is moving at the speed of light, but most of us will have to wait a few more months.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): Dr. Anthony Fauci calls it the cavalry that's coming to help us get past the pandemic. Fauci and other experts are optimistic about the timeline for a wide rollout of a coronavirus vaccine.
FAUCI: We likely will be able to start dispensing vaccines in December and then progressively over the next few months.
TODD (voice-over): The process is moving rapidly of the two manufacturers on the fastest tracks to produce vaccines, Pfizer, BioNTech, and Moderna. Pfizer/BioNTech says it will apply to the FDA for an emergency use authorization tomorrow. Moderna is expected to do that in the coming weeks. A CDC Advisory Committee meets this coming Monday to consider who will get the vaccine first and FDA decision on emergency use authorizations should come in early December, then our first shot of relief.
ALEX AZAR, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: By the end of December, we expect to have about 40 million doses of these two vaccines available for distribution, pending FDA authorization, enough to vaccinate about 20 million of our most vulnerable Americans. And production, of course would continue to ramp up after that.
TODD (voice-over): The CDC recommends that health care providers who are in harm's way of the virus should get the vaccines first, then people with underlying health conditions and other vulnerable segments of the population like the elderly, then possibly nursing home staffers. But when can the rest of us who aren't in those categories get vaccinated?
DR. PETER HOTEZ, DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: I'm hopeful by Q2 of 2021, so early spring, that would be our aspirational goal.
TODD (voice-over): And a key part of this to remember experts say is that with most of the vaccines rolling out, we'll each have to receive two doses of it.
HOTEZ: For at least the first three of the four vaccines, they require two doses, three to four weeks apart. And then it takes a week or so after that to develop a robust virus neutralizing antibody immune response.
TODD (voice-over): Other key questions tonight, how and where will the vaccines get distributed? One expert says the CDC will work with the states to get the vaccines to providers who can administer them.
DR. WALTER ORENSTEIN, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, EMORY VACCINE CENTER: States will be in charge of trying to determine the best way to get vaccines to the people who need them. This can include taking vaccines to special places such as hospitals or what have you for health care providers. It could include then vaccine distributed to doctor's offices.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Now one expert, Dr. Peter Hotez says he's often asked which vaccine he would choose between the ones made by Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, and Johnson & Johnson. His answer, don't overthink it. Don't wait for a particular vaccine. Get what's available first. They'll all work he says to keep you out of the ICU. Wolf?
[17:55:14]
BLITZER: Very good advice, indeed. All right, Brian Todd, thank you.
Coming up, the breaking news we're following, President-elect Joe Biden calling out President Trump for quote incredible irresponsibility for his refusal to concede the election and his efforts to try to actually overturn the election, we'll be right back.
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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: -- incredibly grateful for everything they've done.
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