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The Situation Room

Interview With Senior Presidential Adviser Cedric Richmond; Interview With Gov. Jared Polis (D-CO); Colorado Massacre; U.S. Health Officials Raise Concerns About AstraZeneca Vaccine Data That May Be Outdated; In Stunning Legal Defense, Pro-Trump Lawyer Sidney Powell Argues No "Reasonable Person" Would Believe Her Election Fraud Claims; U.S. Officials Confirm North Korea's First Known Weapons Test Since Biden Took Office. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired March 23, 2021 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:01]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And we're learning more about the shooting massacre at a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, as the nation grapples with a renewed eruption of gun violence.

We now know the names of all 10 victims, as well as the suspected gunman. He's a 21-year-old who is now charged with 10 counts of first- degree murder. A newly released arrest warrant accuses him of being armed with two guns and a tactical vest and gunning down victims in the store and in the parking lot, but the motive tonight remains unclear, as this investigation continues.

I will get an update this hour from Colorado Governor Jared Polis. He will join us live in just a moment.

Tonight, President Biden is responding to the second mass shooting in a week, and he is urging Congress to act on gun control, including an assault weapons ban and an expansion of background checks.

But first to CNN's Lucy Kafanov in Boulder.

Lucy, you have been getting new information from police and other sources. What is the latest?

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Pam.

A now removed Facebook profile is shedding some more light on the Colorado shooting suspect in which he's made some homophobic remarks, but, unfortunately, the biggest question about the motive behind Monday's senseless massacre remains unanswered.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAFANOV (voice-over): Tonight, police say a 21-year-old man from a Denver suburb has been charged with 10 counts of murder in the massacre.

MARIS HEROLD, BOULDER, COLORADO, POLICE CHIEF: This suspect has been identified as Ahmad Alissa, 21 of Arvada. KAFANOV: Aerial images show police taking him away after being shot. He was taken to the hospital and then the Boulder County Jail.

His brother telling CNN he believed the gunman may have suffered from mental illness and that he was bullied in high school for being Muslim. One senior law enforcement source telling CNN the weapon used was an AR-15-style rifle, but still no word about the motive.

HEROLD: No, no motive at this time. It's challenging. I live three blocks up the street from that store.

KAFANOV: The Boulder, Colorado, police chief expressing what an entire community is now feeling.

HEROLD: You're worried about your neighbors. You're worried about your partner. You're worried about everything when you get that call. And so, yes, I feel numb. And it's heartbreaking.

KAFANOV: Ten people were gunned down at a supermarket here Monday afternoon. Today, the chief struggled to say their names.

HEROLD: Denny Strong, 20 years old. Neven Stanisic, 23. Rikki Olds, 25. Tralona Bartkowiak, 49. Suzanne Fountain, 59. Teri Leiker, 51. Officer Eric Talley, 51. Kevin Mahoney, 61. Lynn Murray, 62. Jody Waters, 65.

Our hearts go out to all the victims killed during this senseless act of violence.

DEAN SCHILLER, EYEWITNESS: He went in the store.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went right down here.

SCHILLER: Oh, my God. Guys, we got people down inside King Soopers. Look. Look, there's...

(GUNSHOT)

SCHILLER: Holy (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

KAFANOV: A livestream of the shooting shows what appears to be victims both inside and outside the building, as witnesses scrambled.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspect in the building, this is the Boulder Police Department. The entire building is surrounded. I need you to surrender now.

KAFANOV: SWAT vehicles and hundreds of officers responding to the scene, including 51-year-old Boulder Police Officer Eric Talley.

HEROLD: Officer Talley responded to the scene, was first on the scene. And he was fatally shot.

KAFANOV: Many shoppers scrambled to safety, some leaving out the back of the building.

RYAN BOROWSKI, WITNESS: This feels like the safest spot in America. And I just nearly got killed for getting a soda and a bag of chips.

ANNA HAYNES, WITNESS: I initially heard maybe 10 gunshots. I also saw the gunman himself holding a semiautomatic rifle. I heard screaming. I heard people leaving in their cars. And it just devolved into chaos within just a couple of minutes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAFANOV: And new details about the shooting from court documents. Police say that they recovered a green tactical vest and two weapons from the scene, which they believe belong to the gunman.

They described him as having walked backwards towards the SWAT team to be taken into custody. He had apparently removed all of his clothes. He was just wearing a pair of shorts. He refused to answer any questions, but he did ask officers to speak with his mother when he was apprehended -- Pam.

BROWN: Lucy Kafanov, thank you for bringing us the latest.

And joining me now is Colorado Governor Jared Polis.

Governor Polis, thank you for joining us. And our condolences.

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Well, thank you. We appreciate the outpouring of support and love from all over the country and the world in Colorado and Boulder's time of need.

BROWN: And Colorado is, sadly, no stranger to tragedy.

[18:05:02]

What is the latest you can tell us on this investigation?

POLIS: Well, look, I think it's going to be a pretty easy case to prosecute, plenty of eyewitnesses. A lot of folks saw what happened.

Ten of our friends and our neighbors and loved ones are never going to be with us again, one a police officer in line of duty, nine others, some who worked there and some who were just picking up eggs or milk. And it's a store that I have been in many times, and so -- and know well. It's a well-known store in the community.

BROWN: Yes.

So, do you have any better understanding tonight of the why? That is always the big question after shootings like this, what the possible motive is.

POLIS: Well, there's no right, there's no good motive. It's evil. It's evil.

We will learn the dimensions of it. We will learn more about the why. Everybody's asking why, why that site, why the people that were involved. None of us know that. I think a lot of that will come out in the trial. Early indications that the brother of the suspect was quoted saying that there could be mental health issues, extreme paranoia involved. But it's really premature to figure out what that is. And you know what? No matter what it is. It's not -- it doesn't -- it's not going to make sense to anybody.

BROWN: No.

POLIS: It still doesn't make sense.

BROWN: No, it certainly won't.

And you say the Boulder has been home for most of your life. But one eyewitness we just heard to the shooting said, it doesn't feel like there's anywhere safe anymore.

How do you respond to that?

POLIS: Yes, I mean, this is just where everybody goes to pick up groceries, right? I mean, it's just -- we have a few big grocery stores in town. And like in most towns across the country, people go buy groceries.

Never, ever does it cross your mind that that trip to the grocery store could be your last moments on Earth. So, I think all of us are going to have those little flutters in our hearts as we go shopping next time, just recognizing what happened here in Boulder.

BROWN: I know you spoke with President Biden today. He is calling for a ban on assault weapons and for Congress to pass two gun control measures.

Would those steps prevent another mass shooting like this one? How does Biden make those measures a reality?

POLIS: President Biden was kind enough to call me. We had a good conversation. He expressed his condolences. And he's seen a lot of loss in his life, including, of course, his son and his wife and so many others, in his history.

So, he's no stranger to loss. He gave some comforting words to Colorado, to me. I think there will be a broad discussion about the policy side. We have, for instance, universal background checks in Colorado, but some of our neighboring states don't. I know Congress is looking at closing that loophole.

But, for now, we're really trying to do our best to comfort the families, the friends of the 10 people who will no longer -- are no longer with us.

BROWN: Well, just days before the shooting, a state district court judge ruled that Boulder can't enforce its ban on assault-style weapons. So, what does that mean for gun control in your state?

POLIS: Well, I don't know what that precedent formally means in terms of -- that was a localized effort. We have some good statewide measures. We have a red flag law where, if

the family of somebody is worried about the mental state of an individual, they can temporarily remove custody of guns from that person. It's been used in a very limited and targeted ways since we have had just about it -- what, about a year or two now.

Perhaps it could have been used in this case had a family member known that this young man was in possession of weapons?

BROWN: And, again, I imagine the last 24-plus hours have been very difficult for you.

Have you spoken to the victims' families? What have those hours been like?

POLIS: Yes, I plan to.

We have assigned a public information officer through the victim advocates to be the point of contact for each of the families to -- for press, for others. I have made it known through them that, when they're ready to take my call -- and I think some live in Colorado, and some don't. But I will, of course, convey the remembrance of the people of Colorado have for the 10 victims.

We have -- I have also ordered flags to be flown at half-mast for 10 days, in commemoration of the lives of the 10 people we lost yesterday.

BROWN: We're remembering them. We're all, of course, remembering Colorado's history of mass shootings, the victims from that, from Columbine to the Aurora movie theater shooting.

What is your message to the people of Colorado tonight?

POLIS: Well, look, it's OK to feel the way we do. It's shock. It's fear. It's anger.

It's the question why. I think people are all feeling that. It's also the knowledge that we will be resilient, that we will endure, and we will come together as a community to comfort those who suffered loss.

[18:10:03]

BROWN: Colorado Governor Jared Polis, thank you.

POLIS: Thank you.

And now let's bring in CNN law enforcement analyst and veteran police Chief Charles Ramsey, along with CNN, senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Laura Coates.

Laura, let's start with you. The suspect has been charged with 10 counts of first-degree murder. How serious is that charge? And could more charges be added? Do you expect that?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: These are by far the most serious charges at the state level, Pam.

I mean, you have the idea of up to life in prison. Just last year, Colorado abolished its death penalty. So that's not on the table.

But I absolutely believe that there will be more charges coming, depending upon how many shots were fired, the ideas of, were there attempted murder cases as well? This is a first-degree premeditated charge, and 10 of them, meaning that this was somehow thought to be in advance, it was not reactionary, it wasn't self-defense. It was premeditated, plotted against human beings, and human lives were lost.

This is a very serious charge. But it's so early in the investigation. If there are not more charges coming out of this, I'd be astounded.

BROWN: Chief Ramsey, police say they still don't know what the shooter's motive is. The suspect is alive and in custody. We don't know if he is talking to investigators now.

How challenging is it to figure out a motive in a case like this?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it can often be very challenging. Sometimes, you never really find out the motive.

But right now, they're doing everything they possibly can. They have executed search warrants, my understanding, at his home. I don't know if he had a vehicle or not.

But, certainly, they would be executing search warrants wherever they feel they need to, gather as much evidence as possible, including computers, cell phones, and the like, and start searching through that to find out through social media, through Facebook, through conversations with relatives or friends, whether or not he expressed any kind of animus toward that store, for an example, or anything else to try to get at a motive.

But I don't think they're near finding a motive right now. And they're pretty busy. This is early stages of the investigation. They still have a very complex crime scene that has to be processed. There's an awful lot of things going on right now.

And -- but they will do the best they can to try to get at a motive. But we have an actual shooter in custody, a living person who is in custody. Oftentimes, with these things, these individuals killed themselves or are killed by police. So they're going to be very, very careful and very meticulous in putting together a case, because this will result in a trial at some point in time.

BROWN: And we're already finding out some more details, Laura, about the investigation, that the shooter was armed with two guns and a tactical vest.

What does that tell investigators about this mass shooting and how much -- what it exactly means?

COATES: Premeditation is what it means and the idea that there could have been even more human casualties and an even greater toll on life. You have heard about the very heroic acts of the officer, who likely prevented even more deaths and tragedies from occurring here. But it's important to keep in mind, Pam, when people talk about searching for a motive, the motive is not to somehow exculpate the defendant or somehow to suggest that they should be excused from the crime.

It's a way to either buttress the existing charges against the person, or maybe even to add federal charges, if there is some -- as my colleague talked about, some demographic issue involved, some animus that was targeted, that might attach a federal crime here.

Looking at the motive as a way for people to add additional charges or to fully contextualize and guard against the ability of a defendant to then raise affirmative defenses to their own actions. And so it's not a search to try to figure out a way to excuse him. It's a way to sort of clarify what the prosecutorial landscape is going to look like going forward.

And the idea, the addition of tactical vests, if there were some way to manipulate or somehow change the weapons that were used, you might have federal hooks about these actual crimes. And so all of this goes towards somebody who was acting in a way that was barbaric, obviously. The monstrosity of the tragedy is very, very real.

But it goes to show just how premeditated this really was. And you're looking for things, as my colleague talked about, indications that maybe, did anybody else know this was going to happen? Who else saw him? Was there a way to prevent this? Was there somebody who was an accomplice in some form or fashion or could have done something to prevent it in any way, shape or form?

Looking at all these things is before these investigators right now at the state and federal level.

BROWN: And, as Chief Ramsey said, we may never figure out what the motive is. I mean, that is a conclusion we may have to accept.

But, Chief Ramsey, one of the victims was Boulder police Officer Eric Talley, who was the first officer to respond to the scene. You have spent your career in law enforcement, even leading two police departments. Can you talk about the bravery it requires to be the first officer to respond and the toll it takes on a department to cope with that loss?

[18:15:00]

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, it takes a tremendous amount of bravery and courage to do what he did.

It's consistent with the training now. After Columbine back in 1999, police training changed dramatically. There was a time when you would get to the scene of an active shooter, contain it, wait for the SWAT team to arrive. No longer. You have to go in and you have to stop the threat right away.

And so officers, when they respond, even though they aren't SWAT officers, they're the first on the scene, they will go in. Now, in many cases, they try to wait and get at least a couple of them. But if he pulled up, he probably heard shots being fired. And he did what he was trained to do.

He went in. Unfortunately, it cost him his life. But the courage the bravery of him and others is something that there just are no real words to really describe it. But now his family is left with a hole that can never be filled, I mean, seven kids. I mean, that's a tragedy. And it's a tragedy with each and every one of these victims.

BROWN: Exactly.

Chief Ramsey, Laura Coates, thank you both.

RAMSEY: Thank you.

BROWN: And just ahead: Is President Biden confident that he can push Congress to pass new gun control legislation? We will tell you what he's saying tonight.

And I will talk with a senior adviser to the president, Cedric Richmond, about the latest challenge facing the new administration.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:09]

BROWN: Tonight, President Biden is making an emotional appeal for new gun control legislation, after the mass shootings in Atlanta and now in Boulder, Colorado.

But he faces steep hurdles in a very partisan and divided Congress.

Let's go to CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

So, Kaitlan, what's the president saying about his chances of getting the legislation that he wants?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, since President Biden took office, gun legislation has not been a top priority of his. It's certainly been on his list. But, of course, they have been focused on the pandemic and the economic response to that, and the recovery from that.

But now, based on the remarks that he made before he left the White House earlier today, it appears that there has been a shift, and this is now something that he is going to push for.

But, of course, one major question remains, and that's how lawmakers are going to respond.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): After two mass shootings in less than a week, President Biden is calling for action.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't need to wait another minute, let alone an hour, to take commonsense steps.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a shooter, active shooter somewhere.

COLLINS: Biden said he was -- quote -- "devastated" after 10 people were killed in Colorado, and urged the Senate to pass legislation expanding and strengthening background checks.

BIDEN: The United States Senate -- I hope some are listening -- should immediately pass the two House-passed bills that close loopholes in the background check system.

COLLINS: Then Biden went even further.

BIDEN: We should also ban assault weapons in the process.

COLLINS: Despite the president's calls for action, Capitol Hill is already divided on how to respond.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Thoughts and prayers are not enough, and yet thoughts and prayers is all we have heard from my colleagues on the other side. Thoughts and prayers must lead to action.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): The senator from Connecticut knows that is false. Every time there's a shooting, we play this ridiculous theater, where this committee gets together and proposes a bunch of laws that would do nothing to stop these murders.

COLLINS: Former President Barack Obama also calling for stricter gun laws, saying it's -- quote -- "time for leaders everywhere to listen to the American people when they say enough is enough, because this is a new normal we can no longer afford."

President Biden now finds himself in a similar position to the one he was in 2012, when President Obama tapped him to lead the effort after 26 people, including 20 children, were killed in Sandy Hook.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's why I have asked the vice president to lead an effort that includes members of my Cabinet and outside organizations to come up with a set of concrete proposals.

COLLINS: The concrete proposal turned into only a modest measure on expanded background checks, and never made it out of the Senate.

Aides would go on to say Biden had wanted to do more, including his longtime adviser Bruce Reed, who told Politico in 2015: "Even before Newtown, the vice president had wanted the administration to push harder on the issue."

This time, aides say President Biden is considering executive orders, in addition to urging Congress to act, as families from Atlanta to Boulder grieve.

BIDEN: Those poor folks who died left behind families. It leaves a big hole in their hearts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And, Pam, those were the comments President Biden made before he left the White House.

But while he was speaking in Ohio, he also announced that he is going to let Americans sign up for Obamacare for an additional three months as part of this special enrollment period that they have announced amid the pandemic, part of his coronavirus relief bill.

So, instead of expiring in mid may, it is now going to expire in the middle of August. And as he was announcing this, Pam, he urged Americans who needed to sign up.

BROWN: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thank you for bringing us the latest there from the White House.

And we are joined now by a Senior Adviser to President Biden, Cedric Richmond. He is director of the White House Office of Public Engagement.

Thank you for coming on.

We're going to discuss what Kaitlan was just talking about, that news on the Affordable Care Act, in a moment.

But, first, President Biden said today that he doesn't need to wait another minute on gun control. So what is the timeline here? How soon will we get details on his next steps?

CEDRIC RICHMOND, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, I think you heard him call it a public health crisis, I think, which is a great first step in recognizing the toll that gun violence is having on communities all across this country.

And so -- especially in black and brown communities, and then we look and see the mass shootings. It is something that we finally have to address. And then you heard him talk about banning assault weapons, which he has done before, and then the universal background checks, which those bills passed the United States House of Representatives.

They're in the Senate. And he's calling on the Senate to pass it. And so that is the immediate first steps. And I think that you will see this administration start exploring options at his command on other things that could be done.

[18:25:11]

And so we will go to work on that.

BROWN: You mentioned these bills that passed the House, that Biden is calling on the Senate to immediately pass these two gun control measures and that he wants an assault weapons ban.

But how does that happen when even Democrats like Joe Manchin aren't on board, let alone Republicans?

RICHMOND: Well, look, it's the legislative process.

And I think that the will of the people, and they will create the demand. We will help lead that, and we will work to pass it. A couple months ago, people said we couldn't pass a $1.9 trillion bill. But we put our head down, we went to work. The president and vice president's leadership ushered in the American Rescue Plan.

And that's the same thing we're going to do on other pieces of legislation that impact the American people. And what we have to remember here, we're not talking about the NRA. We're not -- this is not an academic discussion. This is real people who have real children, real wives, real parents that are dying in this country.

And the president feels very strongly that he is not going to sit back and watch people get mowed down in the streets without trying. And so it's clear that his order is to his administration to go try, and same thing for the Senate.

But he wants something done. And most of the time, when he wants it done, he will put his head down and we will get it done.

BROWN: Well, you have got the legislative aspect of this, also executive action.

Your colleague White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki says he is considering executive action. What does that look like? How much can he accomplish by going that route?

RICHMOND: Look, we're going to research it. All of our executive orders were very careful to make sure that they're constitutional and they are legal.

And our team, which is very competent, will look at all options and put all options on the table for the president to decide where he wants to go. I don't think that's for me to speculate on. We need to figure out what options we can legally do. And he's going to make that decision.

BROWN: On the campaign trail, as you know, Biden promised sweeping gun control, but this issue wasn't included in his first round of executive orders.

So, how much of a priority is this for the White House, especially in the wake of the infrastructure proposal we just learned about yesterday?

RICHMOND: I think you heard the president address it today. And he said he wants immediate action.

So, it's a high priority for him.

BROWN: All right, President Biden is also, as we know, marking the anniversary of the Affordable Care Act today and extending the special enrollment period to August 15.

But the subsidies for that health care established through his COVID relief bill only lasts for two years. So, what is the long-term plan?

RICHMOND: Well, that's the beginning of the long-term plan.

And so, right now, what we're trying to do is make sure those Americans that don't have health insurance, those that are paying a high -- too high of a portion of their salary to have health care, that we provide them some relief.

So, for a lot of Americans, their health care costs will go down $200 a month. For others, they will be able to sign up and pay little or nothing for health care, which helps the entire system. And then I think, when you see more Americans with health care, accessible and affordable health care, you see the system will work better.

And I think that the American people will demand and we will work to continue to expand and build on the Affordable Care Act, which has been a success, when you start talking about children that can stay on their parents' health insurance, when you talk about people with preexisting conditions not being penalized when they go to get health care, when you see a cap of 8.5 percent of your income is all we're going to require you to pay for health care in this country.

I think that it is very popular. And we're going to continue to be able to build on it. I think it's been transformational in terms of those families that now have access to health care that did not have it before.

BROWN: I want to ask you about another issue today in today's news. Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth and Mazie Hirono now say that they will vote no on all of Biden's nominees until he steps up and appoints Asian Americans to key positions.

Will the president take that step and appoint more Asian Americans to top roles?

RICHMOND: Look, everybody in this country knows one thing: Show me your budget and I will show you your values.

And we nominated a person of Asian -- an Asian American for the role of budget director, which is where our value squarely lie. And, unfortunately, she was not able to get enough votes in the Senate, and she withdrew.

But we have been very consistent that we value diversity. And if you look at our trade representative, you look at our surgeon general, you look at our vice president...

BROWN: Right, but will the president take that step to appoint more Asian-Americans to key positions?

[18:30:03]

That's the question.

RICHMOND: Well, we are appointing more Asian-American to key position. So we're very confident that we will continue to do that. And, of course, we respect Senator Duckworth and Senator Hirono very much, their feelings matter to us, their opinions matter to us and the fact that they are of the opinion that they are not seen enough, we will take that to heart and we will continue to do what we we're doing in terms of making sure that our cabinet looks like the country.

BROWN: So you are committed to that, okay.

I want to shift and talk about immigration. We've seen images of overcrowding at the border. At one border facility, we're seeing pictures right here. And on Friday, Congressman Castro will lead the delegation to another site for unaccompanied children. When will members of the press get access and be able to report on these conditions independently?

RICHMOND: That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that. It's above my pay grade. I know that there's things in the work to make sure that we are transparent to the American people. I think there are privacy concerns with allowing the press in those facilities. So it's a lot more than just easy to articulate when can I go in. There are real concerns about children in those facilities, their identities and safety and security concerns, and privacy concerns.

BROWN: And, of course, as you know, there can be ground rules to protect their identity. But what about President Biden, do you have any more details on when he will visit the border?

RICHMOND: No, I don't have any announcement to make on that.

BROWN: Okay, Cedric Richmond, thank you for coming on.

And just ahead in THE SITUATION ROOM, another question mark is now hanging over AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine. Could it impact its chances of getting FDA authorization?

And pro-Trump Lawyer Sidney Powell is now making a stunning legal argument that no reasonable person would have believed her claims of election fraud, but will a court buy it?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:00]

BROWN: Well, tonight, more questions are being raised about AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine as the company prepares to seek FDA authorization. An independent review board has expressed concern the data released on the vaccine's clinical trial may be outdated.

Let's get more on this from CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, good to see you. Let's first listen to Dr. Fauci explain the independent review board's concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: When they saw that press release, they got concerned and wrote a rather harsh note to them and with a copy to me saying that, in fact, they felt that the data that was in the press release were somewhat outdated and might, in fact, be misleading a bit and wanted them to straighten it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What is going on here, Sanjay?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is confusing and an unusual situation. So you have the pharmaceutical company, AstraZeneca, along with the University of Oxford and then you have this Data Monitoring Safety Board, this independent entity. Typically, what happens is you get the data sort of from this independent board. They show the data to the pharmaceutical company. it all gets released. We saw that happen with Moderna and Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson.

In this case, AstraZeneca, as you know, Pamela, released some data yesterday, which the data monitoring safety board took issue with. They basically said that that data didn't seem to match the data they thought the company should be releasing because it was sort of incomplete, meaning that a 32,000-person trial was being conducted and they basically stopped, they had a cutoff at February 17th, which was about five weeks ago. So they didn't include data that, you know, over the last several weeks. And that's part of the problem that they're sort of raising here.

Also it's worth pointing out that 79 percent was the efficacy that AstraZeneca put forth with their trial. This board is saying they're essentially cherry-picking data. And if you look around the world as far as the effectiveness of this vaccine, it's closer to 67 percent.

So I know after a lot of numbers and words that you have there, Pamela, but describing an unusual situation, AstraZeneca says, hey, look, even the most recent data still matched. We're going to release within in 48 hours. It's all going to be okay, but we will see, because we have to see what this new data actually shows.

BROWN: Well, we have to see. What do you think the U.S. should do? Should the U.S. ultimately authorize use of AstraZeneca here?

GUPTA: Well, I don't know, because the data that I'm seeing is the data at this point that the company is releasing and that's the same data that has come under scrutiny. Ultimately, the FDA will have all the data available to it. They'll put it through the analysis, which is an open analysis, by the way. Anyone can watch that. It's a public hearing. And then, ultimately, they will -- the advisory committee will make a decision, a recommendation to the FDA and then the FDA will decide. We will see.

I can tell you that Dr. Fauci, who you just showed a clip from, he has access to some of this data as a representative of the federal government and he feels strongly from his interviews today that it's a good vaccine, that this was an unforced error, as he calls it, that the AstraZeneca folks should just release all of the data right now instead of withholding some of the data. But it's going to be one of those things that just causes people to be a little hesitant about this particular vaccine, which is something we don't need.

[18:40:05]

BROWN: Key word, hesitant, I mean, how concerned are you that it's going to make people not only more hesitant to take this vaccine but other vaccines? We know the vaccine hesitancy is a concern in the United States?

GUPTA: Yes, it is. I mean, about a third of the population still has some vaccine hesitancy. I don't know if what's happening with AstraZeneca will necessarily translate to hesitancy for other vaccines. I just don't know.

We had heard about these clot situations, as you may remember, Pamela, in Europe being associated with AstraZeneca. That was subsequently found not to be the case from World Health Organization and the European Medicine Association. They're saying there is no relationship between clots.

Did that translate into hesitancy? Did the fact that the AstraZeneca trial, even earlier last year was paused for a while, did that lead to hesitancy? Perhaps.

One thing I will say is that, you know the AstraZeneca vaccine is not authorized in the United States and, numbers-wise, we have plenty of vaccine from both Moderna and Pfizer as well as Johnson & Johnson to essentially provide vaccines to people who want it here in the United States. So, I don't think it's going to have a material impact, but it's just really unfortunate, as you point out because of the hesitancy. This just sort of adds to that.

BROWN: Certainly does. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you.

GUPTA: Yes. Thank you.

BROWN: And just ahead on this Tuesday, an incredible defense from one of the pro-Trump lawyers who spread baseless and false claims of election fraud. Why she's now arguing no reasonable person would believe her.

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[18:46:09]

BROWN: Tonight, pro-Trump attorney Sidney Powell who repeatedly pushed false and outlandish election fraud frames is responding to a defamation lawsuit filed against her by arguing no reasonable person would believe her assertions.

Let's discuss this with CNN senior legal analyst Preet Bharara.

I want to get your reaction to this, Powell's argument that no reasonable person would believe her claims of election fraud.

PREET BHARARA, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So my reaction is the same that we've heard from a lot of people, lawyers and non-lawyers alike. This is the kind of argument that, made with a straight face, that causes people to hate lawyers and for good reason.

So you go out there with your bar license. You make outlandish claims that have no foundation in fact, that you probably don't even believe and that have no basis at all. And then when you're held accountable for it or tried to be held accountable for it, by a defamation lawsuit by a company that was not in the political fray, you say, well, I didn't mean any of that, and even if I had, people shouldn't have believed it because it was so outlandish.

In fact, I read the brief and they used to their advantage or tried to use to their advantage the level of outlandishness of the claims to make the argument that a reasonable person could not have believed that it was meant as a statement of fact. Meanwhile this was somebody who spoke these words with great conviction, put those arguments in legal briefs, signed them, you know, somebody with bar license, intending to convince reasonable people that it was true.

BROWN: I remember the press conference she did with Rudy, and she was speaking up there. It almost seemed like she was in tears talking about this and to see this response now that she's faced with a billion-dollar lawsuit, is she essentially arguing former President Trump, who continues to promote election fraud lies, is not a reasonable person, because as we know, he bought into this?

BHARARA: Well, that's one interpretation. The argument her lawyers are making in court to defend her against this defamation suit. Well, no reasonable person would have believed this. But as I said a moment ago, she was intending for many, many, many people to believe it. And other people can characterize Donald Trump as being a reasonable person or not and for that matter, tens of millions of his supporters as being reasonable or not. But they believed it. They wanted to believe it and they ate it up.

And that's why Sidney Powell kept making the arguments. Now, part of their strategy, obviously, concerned strategy, was to make legal arguments in court. We know how those turned out. They all failed in every material respect. They were nonsensical suits.

But the second strategy was to put on this narrative and convince the American public, most notably, the core supporters of Donald Trump, to believe that the election was rigged and one of the ways in which it was rigged was that this company, dominion, was blatantly changing votes at the push of a button from Trump to Biden. So, what it says about the reasonableness of those people others can decide, but she meant for people to believe it.

BROWN: She intended for people to believe it and they did, the claims of a stolen election, as you pointed out, made by Powell, advanced by then President Trump motivated many of the people who stormed the Capitol on January 6th, right?

BHARARA: Yeah. I mean, so in legal circles, we've been laughing about the defense and it's comical on one level, but it's really not. It's tragic, because the consequence of not just Sidney Powell but also Rudy Giuliani and also various people in elective office and of course at the top of the list the president. The overall consequence of them telling these outlandish lies, by the way with great specificity and sounding surely like they were facts. It wasn't like an amorphous, hey, there's been, you know, bad election conduct.

[18:50:03]

Specifically talking about how these companies and machines were rigged in a particular way, related to the election of Hugo Chavez and other things caused people to believe the big lie. And some subset of those people believed it so much, you know, contributed to by Sidney Powell and they caused havoc and an insurrection on January 6th.

So, you know, whether or not the defamation suit succeeds or fails, Sidney Powell and others like her, who thought that they could tell lies to the American people on something so important, like the peaceful transfer of power and the election process in this country should be ashamed and should be disgraced.

BROWN: She was in the Oval Office with the president pushing this with our reporting and the right-wing media site reporting this. They were hit by defamation suits. But, wow, you're right, it is something on one hand you lobby the defense but this is really serious and when you look at the context.

Preet Bharara, thank you very much.

BHARARA: Thank you.

BROWN: And just ahead, new confirmation of a provocative move by Korea's Kim Jong-un and the message it sends to President Biden.

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[18:55:35]

BROWN: North Korea's Kim Jong-un is firing off a new challenge to the United States, launching the first weapon test since President Biden took office.

CNN Pentagon correspondent Oren Liebermann has all the details.

So, Oren, what are you hearing?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Over the weekend, the North Koreans conducted some sort of weapons test of a short-range projectile according to multiple U.S. officials familiar with the weapons test conducted over this past weekend. It was not crucially an intercontinental ballistic missile or something of that nature. It was something smaller, short range, perhaps a cruise missile or some sort of large artillery. We are still waiting for clarification on that point.

Crucial to this is of course the timing of all of this. It happens after the secretary of state and defense secretary were in the region visiting allied, Japan and South Korea among others, as well as a few days before that, the wrapping of the joint U.S. South Korean military exercise. It was expected by officials and analysts as a North Koreans will conduct some sort of weapons test to send a message to the Biden administration.

The surprising part was how quiet the North Koreans have been following this weapons test. No boisterous statements, no threats or challenges at least openly to the United States.

The South Koreans also very quiet about this. Senior administration official says they view this on the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to North Korean actions. Crucially next week, the national security visitors of Japan and South Korea would be here for the Biden administration's North Korea review policy.

BROWN: All right. Oren Liebermann, thanks for bringing us the latest.

And coming up in THE SITUATION ROOM, two mass shootings, 18 victims. We honor their lives, up next.

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BROWN: And tonight, as the nation mourns well over half a million deaths from COVID-19, we are now back in a painfully familiar place. Remembering those killed in shooting massacres. These are the names on your screen of the ten dead in Boulder Colorado, and they range in age from 20 to 65.

They include a young grocery store manager, and the heroic police officer. They were sons and daughters, husbands and wives, parents, neighbors and friends gunned down during which should have been an unremarkable stop at the grocery store.

And it has only been a week since the lives of these eight people were senselessly cut short in the Atlanta area spas shootings, most of them were spa employees, including a 69-year-old grandmother and a 51-year- old single mom.

We know the anger and grief over the deaths is still very fresh, especially in the Asian American communities that was hit so hard and we honor all of them tonight and offer our sympathy and comfort to their families. May they rest in peace.

I'm Pamela Brown, thanks so much for watching.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.