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Biden Slams New Georgia Voting Law as a "Blatant Attack" on the Constitution and "Jim Crow in the 21st Century" that "Must End"; Trump Praises New Georgia Voting Restrictions: "Too Bad These Changes could not Have Been Done Sooner"; Rep. Hank Johnson, (D) Georgia, is Interviewed about New Voting Restrictions in Georgia, Park Cannon; W.H. "Deeply Concerned" about G.A. Lawmaker Arrested for Protest as Governor Signed Voting Restrictions Bill; Justice Dept Says Oath Keepers Had Weapons Training Ahead Of Riot, Offers Photo Evidence. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired March 26, 2021 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Wolf Blitzer is off today. I'm Pamela Brown in the Situation Room.

President Biden says the Justice Department is looking into a controversial new Georgia law placing sharp restrictions on voting. Mr. Biden slammed it as a blatant attack on the Constitution, calling it, "Jim Crow in the 21st century that must end."

And the White House says it's deeply concerned about the arrest of African American Georgia State Representative Park Cannon. She was hand kept and taken into custody after she'd knocked on Governor Brian Kemp's office door repeatedly while he announced the signing of the bill. So, rights groups are suing over the new law, which among other things makes it illegal to give food or water to voters waiting in line which sometimes lasts for hours. And it also places new restrictions on absentee voting and ballot drop boxes.

Let's get more with CNN Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny.

Jeff, the President had a sharp reaction to this controversial new law.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, he absolutely did. He did call it a blatant attack on the Constitution and on good conscience. He also called it an atrocity. But the bigger question is, what is he or the White House going to do about this? He did say the Justice Department was looking into the Georgia law without elaborating on that.

So yes, there are federal voting rights provisions, but many of them were stripped away by that 2013 Supreme Court decision that has opened the door to estates across the country now looking into voting reform, as Republicans are leading the efforts to rollback votes. Now, all of this is coming as backlash from Joe Biden beating Donald Trump last fall. And of course, in Georgia, specifically to more Democratic senators winning in January, which of course, the cost Republicans control of the Senate. So, all of that leads into this moment right here. And President Biden clearly was not pleased today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That atrocities. The idea, if you want any indication, that it has nothing to do with fairness, nothing to do with decency, they passed a law saying you can't provide water for people standing in line while they're waiting to vote. You don't need anything else to know that this is nothing but punitive, designed to keep people from voting. They can't provide water for people about to vote, give me a break.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything the White House can do to protect voting rights in Georgia?

BIDEN: Well, we're working on that right now. We don't know quite exactly what we can do at this point, the Justice Department is taking a look as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So that was the President there just a few moments ago arriving in Wilmington, Delaware, where he will be spending the weekend at home. But he also went on to say that he is, you know, eager to do something on this. And he was asked if he would, you know, urge Democrats and others to change those rules in the Senate about the filibuster. And he said quite frankly, we do not have the votes.

Apparently, that is something here to keep in mind because there are 60 votes needed in the Senate for any major piece of legislation. But quite frankly, among Democrats in the Senate, there simply is not this is support even 51 votes to change that. So, he said that he is going to still, you know, press forward on this and try and get the Senate to take up the bill. The House already passed to enact some federal voting reforms.

He said timing is an issue here. He is not going to make this a top priority, but it clearly is an urgent priority for so many people inside his party. So Pam, certainly many developments here. But we are certainly keeping her eye on what the Justice Department, if they're looking into that, into what extent that may be. Pamela.

BROWN: Yes. We certainly are. CNN's Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.

And for more on the new Georgia voting law and the big lie that inspired it, let's bring in CNN Political Correspondent Sara Murray.

Sara, this law grew out of former President Trump's false claims that the 2020 election was rigged.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. You know and we know Republicans including former President Trump had bruising defeats in the state of Georgia. Republican lawmakers there responded with this sweeping change to election laws. Latching on to the big lie even though, of course, there was no evidence of widespread fraud in the last election.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

MURRAY (voice-over): Georgia governor Brian Kemp signing a dramatic overhaul of the state's election laws, the first GOP victory in restricting voter access in a major battleground state.

GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): After the November election last year, I knew like so many of you that significant reforms to our state elections were needed.

MURRAY: The law puts new voter identification requirements on absentee ballots, limits drop boxes to indoor locations during business hours, allows state officials to take over local elections boards and makes it a crime to approach voters in line to provide food and water.

KEMP: Well, it wasn't a voting rights bill. It was a licensed security bill that actually increases early voting opportunities on the weekend here in Georgia.

[17:05:04]

MURRAY: The legislation doesn't include earlier efforts to get rid of no excuse absentee voting and it allows expanded weekend early voting. But advocates say it is still riddled with restrictions that make it harder particularly for minorities to vote.

DONNA MCLEOD, (D) GEORGIA STATE HOUSE: This is despicable and disgusting. And it creates more barriers to our voters so that they do not have enough access to the ballot box like they should. And to actually say to people, you can't give somebody food or water that's just cruel and inhumane.

MURRAY: It was a striking scene Thursday is Kemp huddled behind closed doors with a handful of white men to sign the bill.

MCLEOD: This Jim Crow 2.0 is represented in that picture. There's just pure white males trying to basically hold on to power with their life.

MURRAY: Just outside Kemp's office, Park Cannon, a black state representative was arrested and marched out of the Capitol by several police officers after she knocked on Kemp's door trying to gain access to the signing ceremony. Cannon now out of jail and facing two felony charges which her ally say she intends to fight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are now is praying for her strength to get through this and we are definitely lawyered up to defend her in every way we know how.

MURRAY: George's law just one of hundreds of bills Republicans are pushing nationwide as they hold tight to baseless claims of fraud amid their 2020 electoral defeat. Even Kemp who defended Georgia's election integrity last year now appears to be buying into the big lie as he braces for a reelection fight in 2022.

KEMP: There's no doubt there were many alarming issues with how the election was handled. And those problems understandably led to the crisis of confidence in the ballot box here in Georgia.

MURRAY: Former President Trump, meantime, still parroting his back free claim.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: If you look at the last election, it was disgraceful. It was a third world election. It was a disgrace.

MURRAY: As the fallout of the big lie spreads. Fox News facing a $1.6 billion defamation suit from Dominion voting systems for spreading lies that the machines were linked to election fraud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fox gave life to these lies. You know Fox took this small flame and they turned it into a raging fire.

MURRAY: This, as former Trump legal team members Sidney Powell defends herself in her own defamation suit from Dominion, claiming in a court filing that even though she spread voter fraud claims, no reasonable person would conclude that the statements were truly statements of fact.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

MURRAY: Now tonight, Donald Trump is weighing in on this new law in Georgia. In a statement he put out he says, "Congratulations to Georgia and the Georgia State Legislature on changing their voter rules and regulations. They learned from the travesty of the 2020 presidential election, which can never be allowed to happen again. Too bad these changes could not have been done sooner."

And of course, there was no evidence that there was widespread fraud in the 2020 election. We have to say it over and over again. We should also note that there are three civil rights groups who are challenging this Georgia law in court. Pam.

BROWN: And again, administration officials under Trump repeatedly said it was the safest election in history. CNN's Sara Murray, thank you very much.

Let's get more in all of this with CNN Chief Political Correspondent Dana Bash and CNN Commentator Bakari Sellers. Great to see you both.

Dana, I'm going to start with you. And just to start reading a bit of that statement that we just got from the President. He says, "This is Jim Crow in the 21st century. It must end. We have a moral and Constitutional obligation to act." What is your reaction to that very strong language from the President?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's similar to the language that he used in his press conference yesterday. The question is, how. The question is how will Washington act, given the realities of the numbers that Democrats have?

Yes, they have majorities, thanks to Georgia. They have a majority in the Senate, but it is the slightest, slightest of margins. Therefore, anybody who wants to filibuster can do it. And there's no sign that there will be a way around that unless there is compromise. And if there's going to be compromise, there's going to have to be a major presidential White House effort to get that done to bring all sides together.

Can Joe Biden do it? Sure, he can. Will that be his number one priority now, given the fact that the Georgia law that we knew was going to be changed actually was changed? We'll see.

BROWN: And he also made clear during his press conference yesterday, that is number one priority moving forward is infrastructure. So, we shall see how forceful --

BASH: Exactly.

BROWN: -- the White House is on this issue. But the President, Bakari, is drawing a very clear line to the civil rights era. Is he right? Are these new laws? The new Jim Crow?

[17:10:04]

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean very much so, Pamela.

I mean, the fact is, people have traded in their white sheets for Brooks Brothers suits. And many times, they get primetime cable news shows. I mean, this is where we are.

I mean, the fact is people are going out of their way to implement discriminatory laws. We have to remember and we have to remind folks often that we are only one generation removed from water hoses, from lynching, from dogs, from people actually sitting in and protesting so that they would have the fundamental right to vote. But this just isn't on the Georgia State Legislature. This just isn't on Governor Brian Kemp. The fact is the Voting Rights Act has been gutted in this country, so the Department of Justice is feckless in trying to go in and fight these pieces of legislation that are discriminatory.

We have to pass the John Lewis voting rights bill, we have to. And then it was right, except the math was a little off. We don't really even have 50 Democrats. We really only have 48 on most things. And we might have 49 on this one, because Joe Manchin wants to somewhat somehow play president on the issue of voting rights.

Look, either you're on the side of Joe Manchin, or you're on the side of Stacey Abrams, and this is the issue of democracy. The overwhelming majority of people in this country are on the side of Stacey Abrams, we have to get our act together.

BROWN: All right. Dana, no surprise here, former President Trump is weighing in just moments ago. He just congratulated Georgia for passing this law said, "Too bad these changes could not have been done sooner," as though it's some sort of vindication. But he lost that state fair and square. He lost it.

With that kind of rhetoric coming from the most influential Republican in the country, will the Republican Party become even more committed to new restrictions on voting?

BASH: Yes. Yes. And like you said, Pamela, this is so important to say over and over in the face of the lies that the former President continues to perpetuate along with people who are with him on these lies. And that is what -- there's no evidence of anything other than a very largely fair and square election in Georgia. And any Democrat who worked very hard to get the win on the presidential level and the two Senate seats will tell you that they were playing by the rules set forth by the Republicans in charge there. And now the Republicans want to change the game because they lost the game that they created.

BROWN: And it's worth noting that in 2018, Governor Kemp had said there are laws on the books in Georgia to make sure that the election is not stolen. So, it's worth noting that. Here we are in 2021, a different story we're hearing from him. But Bakari, what is your reaction to former President Trump's statements?

SELLERS: I mean, former President Trump and Brian Kemp hearkened back to the days of George Wallace and Lester Maddox, let's just call balls and strikes. And we have to go back to 2018, and we remember his race against Stacey Abrams, were particularly in Fulton into Cab County where you have a majority of African American voters. You had four and five our lines. You had you had voting machines that didn't even have power strips, but yet and still, it was the closest or one of the closest gubernatorial races we had in the country.

I want viewers and people who are trying to figure out what's going on and why is this so punitive, I've heard it said a number of packages. But the fact is, a portion of this law will not even let you pass out water and drinks to people who are standing in line. How does that make this country more or the ballot box more safe and secure? It simply doesn't. It's punitive.

And all you had to do was look at the image yesterday. You had a series of white men standing behind Governor Brian Kemp, a southern governor who was signing a bill under a picture of a slave plantation, grinning and smiling while a black legislator outside trying to view it was arrested. That's 2021 in Georgia.

BROWN: Let me quickly ask you, Bakari, and then Dana I have a question to you. But does the fact that this new legislation actually expand early voting in Georgia? Does that soften the blow for you at all Bakari?

SELLERS: It doesn't, because what we have to do is make -- it's like we give you a small, small semblance of democracy but we can't give you the whole thing. Like -- it's like spelling freedom with just the F and the R, like you can't do that. Democracy means that everyone has a right to participate in this process. We should not be shrinking that window which is what Republicans across the country trying to do. Look, they can't win elections and so they change the rules.

BROWN: OK. Dana, before I let you go, on a separate note, you have an exclusive new interview coming up this Sunday on "State of the Union" with Secretary of State Antony Blinken. I want to play a piece of that for our viewers. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: You said at your confirmation hearing, Mr. Secretary, that you believe the Chinese government misled the world about coronavirus. Given that and the millions of people of course who have died around the world, should China be punished for that?

[17:15:04]

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: You know, I think the issue for us is to make sure that we do everything possible to prevent another pandemic, even as we're working through this one, or at the very least, to make sure that we can mitigate in much more effective ways, any damage done if something happens in the future. And a big part of that is making sure that we have a system in place, including with the World Health Organization, that features transparency, that features information sharing, that features access for international experts at the start of something like this. And that's where I think China, like every other country, has real obligations that it needs to make good on.

BASH: That sounded like a no, when it comes to repercussions for what happened in the past. And maybe even that's happening currently, which is the damage that is being done around the world, because of this pandemic. No repercussions? No punishment?

BLINKEN: Look, I think that we've got to, there's a report coming out shortly by the World Health Organization, we've got real concerns about the methodology and the process that went into that report, including the fact that the government in Beijing apparently helped to write it. But let's see what comes out in that report. But we do need to have both accountability for the past. But I think our focus needs to be on building a stronger system for the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So tell us more about your conversation with the Secretary of State, Dana.

BASH: Well, you know, it was really fascinating. As you saw, he was still in Brussels, wrapping up his trip where the whole focus was to re-engage the Europeans and to have kind of a show force with regard to how the U.S. is going to deal with some of the biggest challenges, China being one of them. And, you know, the Secretary of State was incredibly aggressive on China on a whole host of issues over the past, you know, couple of weeks, including this trip on human rights on what's going on with the wiggers, on economic issues, backsliding and democracy.

It really struck me that this exchange that you just played, was kind of one area where, yes, he left the window open just a little bit on punitive measures for China given its role, and the fact that they did not give information to the world at all in a timely fashion about the coronavirus. But for the most part, the Biden administration's posture is we're moving on. BROWN: Yes. All right. Dana, thank you so much. We're going to see you this Sunday at nine and noon Eastern for "State of the Union." Look forward to seeing that full interview then. Bakari Sellers, thanks to you as well.

And up next, former President Trump's outrageous new claim about his supporters who stormed the Capitol.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:21:39]

BROWN: Well, this afternoon President Biden said the Justice Department is taking a look at Georgia's restrictive new voting law. He's denouncing the law as a blatant attack on the Constitution and Jim Crow in the 21st century.

We're joined now by Georgia Democratic Congressman Hank Johnson. He is a member of the Judiciary Committee. Thank you for coming on, Congressman Johnson.

Let's talk about what's going on right now. President Biden has vowed to push new federal legislation to fight these laws in Georgia and elsewhere. But given the 50-50 tie in the Senate, it's highly unlikely Democrats will be able to push through the voting rights bill, the House already has already passed. So, what can Congress realistically pass at this point?

REP. HANK JOHNSON (D-TX): Well, at this point with the House having already tendered to the Senate H.R.1 before the People Act, is now up to the Senate to pass. Forty-nine cosponsors have signed on to Senate one, which is for the People Act in the Senate. It takes, of course, 51 to pass. And so you can assume that if Joe mentioned signs on to the legislation, it then can pass the House if there is filibuster reform that is the --

BROWN: You mean, pass the Senate?

JOHNSON: -- because I don't -- yes, I don't -- yes, pass the Senate. I don't think H.R.1 can get 60 votes in order to make it to the floor for passage. So, it's going to take filibuster reform in the Senate to make a chart -- to make S1 a reality in the Senate.

BROWN: But there's even --

JOHNSON: And this one, of course, will protect us from the nonsense that Georgia, Iowa and other states are thinking about doing. Georgia has done it, Iowa has done it, draconian voter suppression laws that they have passed.

BROWN: But I just really quickly want to ask you because on the filibuster, there's even fewer Democratic votes to abolish the filibuster. Now, there could be reform, President Biden has suggested that. But that still would mean you would need the votes. So, would you be willing to compromise on the voting belts? Work with Republicans and try to figure out a way where there could be compromise?

JOHNSON: Well, I mean, that's always a possibility. It takes two to tango. Republicans simply are not interested in protecting the right to vote. They seem to be hell bent on suppressing the ability of people of color, and elderly people from being able to cast their votes. They're doing everything they can to make it difficult on a state level to vote. And the federal Republicans appear to not want to interfere with that state process.

They would do so if they wanted to lift the finger to support Senate one, but I suspect that it would be the same way as it was in the House. Not a single Republican voting for H.R. 1. And so, that's the fate that it will have in the Senate. Unless the Senate is able to do filibuster reform. And that will take 51 votes in order to do that. So we just need to get the Senator Manchin and senator from Arizona.

[17:25:17]

BROWN: Sinema. Yes.

JOHNSON: Yes. Kyrsten Sinema to the table. I think they have both indicated that they're willing to consider a filibuster reform. And that's good.

BROWN: Let me ask you about these images that have come in showing the Georgia State Representative Park Cannon being arrested as she is knocking on the door there as the governor is announcing the new voting bill. When you see this, what goes through your mind?

JOHNSON: Well, it's a throwback to the past when it's actually almost like a knee on the neck of Georgia voters. Just like that officer had his knee on the neck of George Floyd. What the governor was inside closed doors in secret doing was putting his neck on the -- putting his knee on the neck of Georgia's voters. And while he was doing it, you had a state representative in the Capitol, after the House has done its work, after the Senate had done its work, passed the bill to the governor for his signature, and he signed it without much thought at all. He signed it quickly. But he was in his office behind closed doors doing it with a collection of good old boys weaving (ph).

She simply knocked on the door. And for that action, she was -- her hands were cuffed behind the back like a common criminal. And she was literally dragged from the, from the capital of Georgia, and lodged in the Fulton County jail after being accused of trumped up charges, felony charges that she's facing now.

And it is a throwback to the past when black people did not have rights in this country. You couldn't even go into the Capitol. Now you can go in, but it's a law against knocking on the door seeking entry. And it's something that we'll not stand. The voters of Fulton County the voters of Georgia will not allow this kind of just outrageous legislation to be the law of the land, nor will the jurors convict Representative Cannon of trumped up charges like she faces today.

BROWN: All right, Representative Hank Johnson, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective. We appreciate it. JOHNSON: Thank you.

BROWN: And coming up right here in the Situation Room, former President Trump keeps trying to rewrite the story of what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6. Zero threat, really?

We're also learning chilling new details about the preparation some of the rioters made.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:32:50]

BROWN: More members of the Oath Keepers were in court today on charges related to the Capitol riot and this comes as President Trump is repeating, even embellishing his lies about what happened on that day. Let's get the very latest from CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, judges are questioning the justification for keeping prominent members of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers behind bars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I lost my ability to make a living.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Connie Meggs guarded Roger Stone at this pro- Trump rally in Florida back in December, and she was charged with conspiracy for coordinating with her fellow members of the Oath Keepers to plot the Capitol attack. But today, a D.C. judge released her to home confinement saying, "There is no evidence that she herself assaulted any police officer or even made her way into the Senate chamber. She was not a recruiter and not a leader like her husband is alleged to be. She is an otherwise law-abiding person".

But prosecutors presented these photos in their attempt to prove that Meggs and her husband Kelly, who's still being held in jail, are dangerous. Prosecutors say they took a class on how to attack and kill people as part of tactical firearms training in Leesburg, Florida. Meggs's attorney rebutted that claim, saying, it was simply a two-hour firearm safety class from a well-known organization.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overran the Capitol.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Donovan Crowl has also been released to home confinement despite these videos of him inside the Capitol. He is now the fourth member of 10 Oath Keepers charged in the conspiracy case that federal Judge Amit Mehta has released from jail prior to trial. The judge defending his decision saying liberty is the norm for pre- trial. Another federal judge in Pennsylvania said he believes Zachary Rehl, who prosecutors say as president of the Philadelphia Chapter of the Proud Boys, could be released on conditions of home confinement. But Rehl will remain locked up for now.

The decisions highlight the delicate balance judges now need to strike especially after the federal appeals court in D.C. advice judges to differentiate between those who actually assaulted police officers and broke through windows, doors and barricades or conspired with or coordinated those plans and those who cheered on the violence or entered the Capitol after others cleared the way.

[17:35:01]

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was zero threat, right from the start, it was zero threat.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Former President Trump falsely recounted the insurrection on Fox News Thursday night insisting there was no threat. And that the people who stormed the Capitol were peaceful and loving toward police.

TRUMP: Look, they went in there, they shouldn't have done it. Some of them went in and they're hugging and kissing the police in the guards, you know, they had great relationships.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): But there weren't hugs and kisses. Instead, the exact opposite unfolded as hundreds of officers on the frontlines guarding the Capitol came under vicious attack and violence. More than 140 officers were injured on January 6th. Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick later died, though it's unclear exactly what caused his death.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: And now congressional committees want documents about what Trump's White House knew about the plans to attack the Capitol. These committees are demanding documents from Trump's chief of staff at the time, that's Mark Meadows, and they want communications between federal agencies and the White House and all of these. If they get those documents, it could shed light on whether Trump's team knew there could be violence at the Capitol. Pamela?

BROWN: Jessica Schneider, thank you for bringing us the latest there.

And with us now is former Federal Prosecutor and Deputy Assistant Attorney General Elliot Williams. Good to see you, Elliot. I mean, you just heard former President Trump insists that the writers were hugging and kissing the police, despite the fact that some 140 officers were injured. One would later die, two would die by suicide after the riots. What does it tell you that Trump continues to peddle these lies and tried to distance himself?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, look, the President -- the former President of the United States is engaging in acts of revisionist history like frankly, many people in the country and frankly, many members of Congress. Look, Justice Jessica had reported, members of Congress are now investigating the circumstances leading up to January 6th, and are doing it only among Democrats because the House Republicans refused to go along with them without making -- bringing in Black Lives Matter and all kinds of other nonsense that had nothing to do with January 6th. The President is merely echoing these views of Republicans that have been hijacked, frankly, by hope, small subset of the party that has just taken over the narrative. And that's what you're seeing, that is what is driven and driving and constraining Congress's investigation and hopefully won't constrain law enforcement any more than it already has.

BROWN: And now we're learning more about some of these rioters in the videos that have come out. The Justice Department maintain some Oath Keepers received paramilitary training. Legally speaking, why is this significant? Does that make it harder to argue the riot was spontaneous or not dangerous?

WILLIAMS: Right, I think it's -- legally speaking, it's a few different things. Number one, it can show the intent like, can we talked about this before that criminal intent is at the center of every criminal charge. You have to prove it someone intended to break the law. And someone who suddenly started getting firearms training before firing, shooting firearms in an attempt of insurrection, you know, that those courses could speak to some level of their intent.

Now, we have to be careful there because it's not unlawful to get physical fitness training or firearms training, but it's what you do with it afterward. That could potentially take some time. That's point number one. Point number two is it could speak to co-conspirators, right? So, if these individuals were working with others in order to get trained before they engage in the siege on the Capitol, that could number one, bring charges for the people who train them, but also identify other people who might have also engaged and tried to -- prepare for January 6th.

And I guess then finally, you know, it's just a question of was the training itself unlawful? Now, it sounds like these might have been pretty standard firearms classes. But if the intent was to teach people how to break the law, to teach people how to kill members of Congress, then of course, those can be charged as well. It's challenging again, because at its core firearms training is lawful activity, just like, you know, learning how to stay on walls or anything like that, it could just bring charges, depending on what the conduct that the individual engages in afterwards.

BROWN: OK. Elliot Williams, thank you so much.

And coming up in The Situation Room, a former CDC Director is controversial in unproven claim about the origin of the coronavirus.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:43:42]

BROWN: And now, a CNN exclusive, former CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield is sparking a COVID controversy, claiming without evidence that the coronavirus originated in a Chinese lab. Listen to what he told CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: If I was to guess, this virus started transmitting somewhere in September, October in Wuhan.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): September, October?

REDFIELD: That's my own view. It's only opinion. I'm allowed to have opinions now. You know, I am of the point of view that I still think the most likely etiology of this pathogen in Wuhan was from a laboratory, you know, escaped. Other people don't believe that, that's fine. Science will eventually figure it out. It's not unusual for respiratory pathogens that are being worked on in a laboratory to infect the laboratory worker.

GUPTA (voice-over): It is also not unusual for that type of research to be occurring in Wuhan. The city is a widely known center for viral studies in China, including the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which has experimented extensively with bat coronaviruses.

(on-camera): It is a remarkable conversation I feel like we're having here because you are the former CDC Director, and you were the director at the time this was all happening.

[17:45:00]

(voice-over): For the first time, the former CDC Director is stating publicly that he believes this pandemic started months earlier than we knew. And that it originated, not at a wet market, but inside a lab in China.

(on-camera): These are two significant things to say, Dr. Redfield.

REDFIELD: That's not implying any intentionality, you know? It's my opinion, right? But I am a virologist, I have spent my life in virology. I do not believe this somehow came from a bat to a human, and at that moment in time, the virus that came to the human became one of the most infectious viruses that we know in humanity, for human-to-human transmission.

Normally when a pathogen goes from a zoonotic to a human, it takes a while for it to figure out how to become more and more efficient in human-to-human transmission. I just don't think this makes biological sense.

GUPTA (on-camera): So in the lab, do you think that that process of becoming more efficient was happening? Is that what you are suggesting?

REDFIELD: Yes, let's just say I have coronavirus and I'm working on it. Most of us in a lab, when we're trying to grow a virus, we try to help make it grow better and better and better and better and better and better so we can do experiments and figure out about it. I -- that's the way I put it together.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Joining us now Dr. Ashish Jha, Dean of the Brown University School of Public Health. Dr. Jha, great to see you as always. Really interesting to hear that from Dr. Redfield. The WHO says Dr. Redfield's theory is, quote, extremely unlikely. Dr. Fauci says that is just an opinion. What is your view of this? Is it problematic for the former CDC Director to share that theory without providing evidence?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes. So first of all, Pamela, thank you for having me on. You know, he is allowed his opinion. It is an extremely unusual opinion, that is not the opinion of most scientists. And we will eventually figure it out. But I think Dr. Redfield is really being irresponsible by sharing what I think are very provocative views without backing it up.

Look, he's allowed to have provocative views, we'd love to hear them. But it would be much more responsible if he had any evidence behind this. You know, this has been a bit of a track record, unfortunately, over the last year where we heard a whole bunch of theories without evidence. And I think it would be better if Dr. Redfield could actually show some evidence behind this idea.

BROWN: Sanjay Gupta points out the Redfield, as then CDC Director, did have access to information that the rest of us don't. So is it realistic to think he's expressing a well-informed opinion here?

JHA: I mean, it's certainly possible and, in general, we tend to give a lot of credibility to current and former CDC Director's for exactly the reason Dr. Gupta said. I think the problem here is Dr. Redfield isn't really offering up any and most virologists who are deep experts in this think that he's wrong. And so, if he is going to make a claim like this, it would be really helpful to offer some data.

Again, this is not my area of expertise per se, but I think he's really, really unlikely that this began in a lab. It probably did begin in an animal and then eventually made its way into humans.

BROWN: And just curious, though, on that opposing theory, if you will, what is the evidence to back that up?

JHA: Yes. So we do know that that coronavirus is -- but first, what we do know species jump happen. There's been a lot of very careful work of this spike protein that's in the human coronavirus, this one versus a bunch of bad viruses and there's a lot of similarities. So we don't know for sure. And I think we need to continue to sort this out through scientific methods. But I think, you know, instead of proclaiming as Dr. Redfield has, we should really let the science sort this out before we make those kinds of proclamations.

BROWN: All right, Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you for joining us.

JHA: Thank you, Pamela.

BROWN: And we want to mention this program, you may join Dr. Sanjay Gupta for a CNN Special Report, COVID War: The Pandemic Doctors Speak Out. That is this Sunday at 9:00 Eastern only on CNN. And Sanjay will be here in The Situation Room next hour.

And still ahead on this Friday, investigators revealed new details about the gun used in the Boulder grocery store massacre. Plus, President Biden now says the Justice Department is looking into Georgia's controversial new voting restrictions, which he calls, quote, Jim Crow in the 21st century.

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[17:53:49]

BROWN: Welcome back, live pictures here right out of Boulder where police are revealing new details about the weapon allegedly used by the 21-year-old man charged in the grocery store shooting that left 10 people dead.

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CHIEF MARIS HEROLD, BOULDER, COLORADO POLICE: The firearm used by the suspect in King Soopers on March 22nd is a semi-automatic Ruger AR-556 pistol. It was illegally purchased in a gun store in Arvada, Colorado.

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BROWN: Let's go to CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent Shimon Prokupecz. So, Shimon, what more are you learning about the gun?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, so in terms of the gunman, the big question is the motive, why this day, why this location where we are? It's a lot of the questions that people are asking. As you can see here, this is where much of the community has been gathering and placing flowers and really asking questions about what happened, why it happened. And it is something certainly that is on the top of the investigators on their minds. They are still trying to figure out the motive here. What happened here, how this all came about, and of course, the reason why. The chief here of the Police Department spoke about the motive today.

[17:55:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEROLD: We too want to know why. Why that King Soopers? Why Boulder? Why Monday? And unfortunately at this time, we still don't have those answers.

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PROKUPECZ: And Pam, you know, I asked the district attorney here who's overseeing this investigation. Could it be possible that we may never learn the motive here? And that is a possibility. You know, we've been seeing a lot of these kinds of shootings and these kinds of situations where, for whatever reason, certainly of late, we don't see the motive. It's always elusive. It's something that investigators never quite clearly know. And that's something that could happen in this case, Pam. BROWN: And that is just so troubling for those who want certainty. They want a better understanding of how this could happen. But you're right, Shimon, that is a reality. Thanks so much.

Shimon Prokupecz live for us from Boulder.

And coming up on this Friday, President Biden condemns new voting restrictions in Georgia and now says the Justice Department is looking into them.

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