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Grand Jury Indicts Luigi Mangione On Multiple Murder Charges; Police Say, Identifying Motive Of School Shooting Top Priority; Key Russian General Killed in Moscow Blast; Experts Try To Make Sense of "Extremely Rare" Female Mass Shooter At Wisconsin School; NASA: Astronauts Stuck On Space Station For Several Months Will Have To Wait Even Longer To Come Home. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired December 17, 2024 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Happening now, breaking news, a New York grand jury has just indicted CEO killing suspect Luigi Mangione (INAUDIBLE) charges including murder in the first-degree and murder in the second- degree as a crime of terrorism.

Also tonight, police in Madison, Wisconsin, are pleading with the public for information about the 15-year-old female suspect behind yesterday's deadly school shooting. Authorities now say finding a motive is their top priority and that it's still too soon to say whether the shooter's parents will face charges.

And in Russia, Ukraine is claiming responsibility for the assassination of the highest ranking Russian military officer since the beginning of the war. We have new details on the bombing in Moscow that killed a key Russian general.

Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in The Situation Room.

And let's get right to the breaking news in New York, where Luigi Mangione has just been formally indicted by a grand jury in the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

Our Senior Crime and Justice Correspondent Shimon Prokupecz is joining us with all the late breaking details.

Shimon, the charges include a terrorism charge related to murder. Explain.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. Two terrorism charges, a district attorney bringing the most significant and serious charges possible in this case. You have the two terrorism counts, but also a murder in the first-degree charge now facing Luigi Mangione.

Take a listen to the D.A. describing how they view this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This was a frightening, well planned, targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And, Wolf, here's the D.A. talking about that charge, how rare it is and describing the elements, the things that they would need to prove to bring this charge and to get a conviction. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: Explain more to viewers how you come to the conclusion that this is an act of terrorism.

BRAGG: The statute talks about intends to influence or coerce civilian population. The statute talks about intending to influence a policy of government.

It does help to take a step back and think about the proof in the case, some of the writings. I'm not going to get into too much of that, but -- and the actual reaction. You know, in the middle of Midtown, the beginning of a busy day, tourists, commuters, businesspeople, the intent was to sow terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And, Wolf, part of what the district attorney there was talking about was the notes, the handwritten notes that they have allegedly obtained, which are, in Mangione's own words, interesting enough, talking about the potential motive in this case and why he targeted Brian Thompson. That is playing a key role here for investigators and the district attorney and why they brought these terrorism charges against Mangione.

Of course, the D.A. and the police commissioner here talking about how cold blooded this was, how calculated this was, and that this was just no ordinary killing and explaining why they decided to bring this level of charges against of this case against Mangione.

Of course, in all of this Wolf, of course, is the family of Brian Thompson. The district attorney said that they have been communicating with him. But, of course, with so much attention being given and focused on Luigi Mangione, you know, the D.A. and the police commissioner stressing just even how vile that has been, and it is something that they have had to deal with as well.

[18:05:00]

And it was part of their consideration, interestingly enough, on the district attorney's part, in why they brought these charges just because of, in some ways, because of the reaction from people. Wolf?

BLITZER: All right. Shimon Prokupecz in New York covering this important story for us, thank you very much. Our legal and law enforcement experts are joining us right now, and, John Miller, let me start with you. Talk us through the district attorney's strategy in pursuing a murder in the first-degree charge for terrorism.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, it could be two things. Number one, this is a district attorney who has used the rarely used New York State, not federal, terrorism statutes before and successfully in court. So, the idea of going with first-degree murder because of the terrorism enhancement, and then putting the second-degree murder with the terrorism enhancement, and then all the weapons charges with a regular intent to commit murder below them does two things.

Number one, it could be that if they are worried that a jury may be sympathetic to the why behind the murder, which as Shimon already forecasted would be terrible and given the circumstances of the killing of a father of two on the street in cold blood, it gives them a place for that jury to go to the murder with intent or to the rest of the charges.

But, number two, flip that over. That first-degree murder charge could come with life without parole. That gives the lawyer incentive to enter a guilty plea to one of the lesser charges, perhaps the murder with intent, to get out of the life without parole and hope for maybe a 25 years to life for someone who's 26 years old, that could make a big difference.

BLITZER: It certainly could. Elliot Williams is with us as well. Elliot, you're our legal analyst. You heard the district attorney argue this killing was intended to evoke terror. Do you agree with that, first of all? And how hard could it be for the prosecution to prove terrorism in this case?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, starting with your second question, Wolf, I think quite hard based on the information that's publicly available.

Now, everything depends on, as the district attorney said, what is in this defendant's writings, but let's look at the New York law. In order to get to first-degree murder for a terrorism crime in the state of New York, the killing needed to be intended to influence a civilian population or influence the policy of government.

Now, merely killing someone because they are a healthcare executive does not get you there. Now, perhaps there are writings or other statements or other information that seem to suggest that not only did he wish to kill this person because he was a healthcare executive, he did so to send a message to the public or to send a message to politicians. Merely killing someone does not get you there.

Now, I want to be clear, Wolf, there's a very clear and very straightforward second-degree murder charge here, which is simply killing someone with the intent to kill them, which, based on what's alleged in the indictment, seems pretty straightforward. But I think there's going to be a fight between the parties between now and trial over whether that particular charge can stand. And if it does make it to trial, then the jury is really going to have to grapple with this definition of terrorism, at least as it exists under New York law.

Katherine Schweit is with us as well, a former FBI agent who understands what's going on very, very well. Katherine, to that point that we just heard, these charges imply that prosecutors have been prosecutors think Mangione had wider ambitions that he could have been planning more attacks on other healthcare leaders. What do you make of that?

KATHERINE SCHWEIT, FORMER SENIOR FBI AGENT: Yes. I think too, as a former prosecutor, you know, what the challenge is that we saw a successful terrorism charge against a shooter up in Oakland County. Karen McDonald brought it, the D.A. up in Oakland County in Michigan, and was successful in getting her defendants prosecuted successfully.

But here, I think there's another challenge because in New York, their high court has already ruled 14 years ago they put that ruling in that said if you are going after a segment of the society, in that case, it was the gang-related and a segment of the population, maybe you won't be successful. So, it's going to be a tough road.

But I would add this one, you know, the concept of whether they should bring it, that's their job. Their job is to try to bring the case. And I think the decision by the court 14 years ago is something that kind of left it up in the air as to exactly how far can they step forward and get a conviction. And that's what I think we're going to see with Bragg's charges here. Yes, once there's a trial.

John, let me get back to you. Mangione's lawyer, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, told CNN her client is not going to fight extradition to New York from Pennsylvania. How soon could Mangione actually be sent to New York, and what happens next from there?

MILLER: Well, they've got a hearing in Pennsylvania on Thursday.

[18:10:01]

It's a status conference on his gun arrest when he was captured in that McDonald's, which will be fairly pro forma. After that, they'll revisit the extradition. If he waives extradition right then, he could be back Thursday night. He could be back Friday or at the latest on Monday. But New York City Police detectives will be there standing by and be ready to take him. And then there will be a hearing before a judge in New York on this indictment.

I think from his lawyer's standpoint, his gun charge in Pennsylvania, given these charges, really is the least of his problems. I think Karen Friedman Agnifilo wants to get him here to New York so she can get him, you know, here, start working with him as a defendant and a lawyer, start looking at that discovery and start to deal with these charges as quickly as possible.

BLITZER: Elliot, as Shimon mentioned, we just heard his report, the new NYPD commissioner, Jessica Tisch, called out the social media reaction to this killing. I want you to listen to what she said. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE: We have seen a shocking and appalling celebration of cold blooded murder. Social media has erupted with praise for this cowardly attack.

We don't celebrate murders, and we don't lionize the killing of anyone. And any attempt to rationalize this is vile, reckless, and offensive to our deeply held principles of justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, how much does the public reaction here complicate this case?

WILLIAMS: Well, in a few different ways. Now, it certainly makes it harder to find a jury of unbiased people if you have a whole community or a large community in which people are speaking out publicly about a matter.

I think she's doing a few things. Number one, she's making the broader moral statement that people should make that we should never celebrate killings, but also perhaps teeing up this question of perhaps the fact that people responded to this killing, suggesting that they were animated by it, may support that terrorism charge.

Now, that's a novel and interesting legal argument, but I think Alvin Bragg also suggested that merely because people heard it as an incitement, as an incietment to engage in violence you know, or to be whipped up by a particular killing, that maybe that supports a terrorism charge.

Again, this is how these complicated legal issues work. And this is not the end. We have heard this question of whether a first-degree murder charge was appropriate here.

BLITZER: Katherine, the glorification of Mangione online and the anger toward the healthcare industry, how do you see that factoring into a possible trial?

SCHWEIT: Yes. Especially for a targeted violence case, which is really what we have here, this is just not unlike Columbine, not unlike Virginia Tech, not unlike the shootings that we've seen across the country where they're planned events. And if we have a jury that, for some reason, votes jury nullification, even though the evidence might be there or finds the defendant not guilty, that encourages more copycats because they'll know that they can potentially get away with it. And planned violence is really tough to combat. So, hopefully, we won't have that prior problem when it comes to the jury.

BLITZER: All right. Guys, thank you very much. Everyone, thank you.

Just ahead, a live report from Madison, Wisconsin, with updates on the investigation into why a 15-year-old girl opened fire at a school killing two people. And the other news just coming into The Situation Room, NASA tonight giving an update on when two astronauts might be coming back to Earth after being in space now for months longer than planned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:15:00]

BLITZER: Breaking news we're following police in Madison, Wisconsin, now say they need more information about the suspect's state of mind as they try to figure out why a female teenager opened fire inside her school, killing another student and a teacher.

CNN's Whitney Wild has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHIEF SHON BARNES, MADISON POLICE: We're brought together by a tragedy.

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Madison Police Chief Shon Barnes solemnly addressing the school shooting Monday where a 15-year-old female student opened fire inside Abundant Life Christian School. Finding a motive remains a top priority for law enforcement and say it appears to be a combination of factors.

BARNES: We're looking into her online activity. We're asking anyone who knew her or who may have insights into her feelings leading up to yesterday to please contact the Madison area crime stoppers.

WILD: Chief Barnes also addressing reports that the shooter may have left an online manifesto.

BARNES: We have detectives working today to determine where this document originated and who actually shared it online.

WILD: The tragedy unfolded when a second grade teacher, not a second grade student, as police originally reported, called 911 at 10:57 A.M.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abundant Life Christian Church 49-01 for Engine 5 and Medic 5 for a shooter.

WILD: Officers arrived within minutes. At 11:05, they reported the shooter was down and the gun was recovered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MPD is saying everybody can come in, all EMS can come in, shooter is down.

WILD: Madison police have identified the shooter as 15-year-old Natalie Rupnow, who went by Samantha. They say she opened fire inside a study hall with students from mixed grades using a handgun, killing a teacher, a student and wounding six others before turning the gun on herself. Law enforcement are working to determine how Rupnow obtained the weapon.

Officers searched Rupnow's home Monday afternoon and are looking into her online activity. Chief Barnes says her parents are cooperating and they don't expect to charge them at this time.

[18:20:01]

BARNES: We also want to look at if the parents may have been negligent. And that's a question that we'll have to answer with our district attorney's office.

WILD: Monday's tragedy has traumatized this small religious school and stunned the community just days before Christmas. Some students describing the terror they felt. Sixth grader Adler Jean-Charles says he was scared after hearing the gunshots.

ADLER JEAN-CHARLES, SIXTH GRADE STUDENT, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: We just waited until the police came and then they escorted us out.

WILD: And a heartbreaking account from the second grader who says she could hear cries from a teacher wounded in the leg.

NORA GOTTSCHALK, SECOND GRADE STUDENT, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: And she was screaming like, ah, my leg. Help. Help.

REPORTER: Do you know that teacher well? What was it like to hear that? Were you scared?

GOTTSCHALK: I was really scared and I was really sad.

WILD: Worried parents James and Rebecca Smith received a text from their teenage daughter saying she was okay after the shooting. Like many, they are grateful to be reunited with their daughter, but fearful of the lasting anguish of another senseless school shooting.

JAMES SMITH, FATHER OF ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL STUDENT: You plan for these things and you don't want to have to, but it's the world that we live in.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WILD (on camera): Wolf, we are here outside the state capital in Wisconsin, here in Madison, where a vigil is set to take place in just a few minutes from now.

Wolf, I'll leave you with this granular detail we heard from a parent earlier on CNN Today. He said his children were inside a classroom and their teacher stood between where the kids were hiding and the door with a pair of scissors. A bullet pierced through the room, hit a water pipe and sprayed water on his child's shoes, and he said that they were hearing screaming about an active shooter. An absolute nightmare for any parent, Wolf.

BLITZER: Real nightmare, indeed. Whitney Wild in Madison, thank you very much for that report.

I want to bring in former FBI profiler Candice DeLong. Candice, thanks very much for joining us.

What went through your mind when you heard the shooter was a 15-year- old girl?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: I was a bit surprised. It's pretty unusual.

BLITZER: Yes. I mean, I've covered a lot of these school shootings over the years. I don't remember another 15-year-old girl potentially responsible.

The police chief says her motive appears to be, and I'm quoting now, a combination of factors, but didn't give any more details. What's your sense of what factors could be at play here?

DELONG: Well, for a 15-year-old, one of the things that comes to mind is -- I mean, that's right on the bridge from being a child to -- well into your -- the middle of your adolescence. And it concerns me. Possibly, she was suffering from a serious depression, or possibly there was some crisis in her life that resulted in her thinking that she needed to do such a horrible thing and take herself out, which she did.

BLITZER: Yes. The school, as you know, is in a small community there in Madison, Wisconsin. Why do you think, at least so far, we haven't heard from students who actually knew the alleged shooter?

DELONG: I find that interesting. It's almost like there's been a lockdown. The school was rather small, 400 students from K-12, only 400 students. So, probably everybody there at least knows other people by sight, if not an actual acquaintance or even sometimes a friendship. But we're not hearing anything, which leads me to believe the students and parents have been told, don't say anything, don't talk to the press.

BLITZER: Yes, I suspect you're right on that.

The police chief says there's no sign the shooter's parents have been negligent and that they're cooperating with authorities. How important will they be to investigators in this case?

DELONG: Well, of course, they lived with her 24/7 with the exception of her being out of the house in school. So, they hopefully will know what was going on in their daughter's head and what was going on in the family. We have no idea.

But when the sheriff says there's no indication, there's no reason to charge them with negligence regarding the gun or anything, what he's saying is from what we know so far.

BLITZER: And they're still trying to collect as much evidence as they possibly can.

Candice DeLong, thanks very much for your expertise.

And just ahead, a live report from Moscow as new details are emerging on how Ukraine says it was able to kill a top Russian general on the streets of Moscow.

[18:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Tonight, Ukraine is claiming responsibility for a bombing in Moscow that killed a key Russian general.

Our Senior International Correspondent Fred Pleitgen is joining us now live from Moscow. Fred, you arrived at the scene shortly after the bombing, right?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you're absolutely right, Wolf. And this was in the southeast of Moscow in an area with a lot of high rise buildings. And as we arrived there on the scene, you could immediately tell that someone very important for the Russians had been killed.

There was a massive cordon that had been set up in that entire area. All the traffic in that area had been stopped. And there were, of course, a lot of security forces securing the area on the ground as well.

[18:30:00]

There were investigators from the Russian police, but also from the Russian military.

Now, as you would expect, Wolf, Russian politicians absolutely irate Russian state media as well. Here's what we're learning.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN (voice over): One of Russia's top generals and an aide just seconds before the fatal blast. We're not showing the moment of the explosion in this video obtained by CNN.

Russian investigators say the bomb with about 300 grams of TNT was hidden in an electric scooter parked just outside the entrance of that building. As the general and an aide walked out, it blew up, killing them both.

Russian investigators say the device was detonated remotely. The blast so powerful, it shattered windows several floors up in buildings across the street.

At first, we thought that cement might have been unloaded or something similar, this resident says, but the blast was so loud, it did not seem like construction work. It was very scary.

Lieutenant General Igor Kirillov was the head of Russia's nuclear, chemical and biological defense forces. Often accusing Kyiv of planning to use chemicals on the battlefield, the Ukrainians, for their part, accused Kirillov of overseeing the use of chemical substances against their forces, and have claimed responsibility for assassinating him, calling the general, quote, an absolutely legitimate target, and saying such an inglorious end awaits all those who kill Ukrainians. The general is not the first, but the highest ranking Russian military official the Ukrainians claim to have assassinated. Moscow furious, launching both a terrorism and a criminal investigation.

Investigative actions and operational search activities are being carried out aimed at establishing all the circumstances of the crime committed, the spokesperson said.

Asymmetric warfare, like this brazen drone attack inside Russia two days ago, this is how the Ukrainian forces are trying to level the battlefield as Vladimir Putin's army has been making significant gains on nearly all frontlines.

The lieutenant general's assassination comes just hours after Putin met with his top military brass, ripping into the Biden administration for its support of Ukraine.

In an effort to weaken our country and impose a strategic defeat on us, the United States continues to pump the virtually illegitimate ruling regime in Kyiv full of weapons and money, sends mercenaries and military advisers and thereby encourages further escalation of the conflict, Putin said.

And Russian politicians have vowed revenge for the general's killing while acknowledging his death is a major loss.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN (on camera): And, Wolf, an increasing number of Russian politicians also pointing their finger at the west as well. There was one senior lawmaker who came out and said he believed that there was a direct link between those behind the killing of this general and western nations.

And there was another senior lawmaker who came out and said that all this shows the desperation, not just of Ukraine, but its western backers. That same politician also saying that he believes that all this could complicate any sort of efforts to initiate talks between Washington and Moscow with the Trump administration taking office very soon. Wolf?

BLITZER: All right. Fred Pleitgen in Moscow for us, Fred, thank you very much for that report.

I want to get some more insight right now from CNN Contributor on Russian affairs, a real expert on Russia, Jill Dougherty.

Jill, tell us more, first of all, about this general and why this targeted assassination is so significant.

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, he was really an important person. You know, his brief was radiological, chemical, and biological. And these weapons were used, according to the Ukrainians, 4,800 times in Ukraine. And particularly the one chemical that they're talking about, this chloropicrin, is particularly pernicious. It attacks the lining of your throat, and it was used against the Ukrainian forces to basically get them out of their foxholes and other places where they could hide. So, Kirillov has been sanctioned by the United States, the U.K. and Canada.

And then, Wolf, I think there's another part of him that's important, which is not just the military side, but the propaganda side, because he defended Russia's use, you know, alleged use, he would say, of chemical weapons. He defended actually Assad's use of chemical weapons in Syria. And he also accused the United States and Ukraine of creating bio labs. You might have heard some of that propaganda, which still exists. It is still floating around the internet, that the United States created bio labs, created COVID-19, created a number of other things.

So, you know, he was a big fish, and I think the Ukrainians definitely wanted to take him out.

BLITZER: Yes, they certainly did. How do you think the Kremlin, Jill, is going to react?

DOUGHERTY: Well, they already have, Wolf. I just noticed that they said he was an outstanding military leader, quote, a scientist and an innovator.

Now, I think it's interesting that the Kremlin has to react in some fashion because this is really bad when one of your key guys is killed in Moscow. But they don't want to overplay it because the significance think of this, the Ukrainians were able to get somebody to kill this man in Moscow. That is embarrassing for the Kremlin. So, they have to acknowledge it, but not make as big a deal. But you can bet they're already saying, they want to eliminate, destroy those in Kyiv, they would say, who ordered this.

BLITZER: Later this week, as you know, Jill, Putin will hold his annual year end news conference. What will you be looking for out of that?

DOUGHERTY: Well, I think any indication that he wants to get a message to the incoming administration in the United States. There's no question Ukraine would be huge, you know if he gets any more specific about ideas for solving Ukraine. But, essentially, you know, some of this Wolf, oddly enough, deals with domestic issues, so that it's not like the United States president fixes roads in a small town in the United States, but that's what Putin has to do.

It's an odd conjunction, but I'll be watching for Ukraine and Trump.

BLITZER: Yes, we'll all be watching that. Jill Dougherty, thank you very much for your analysis.

Coming up, what RFK Jr. is telling senators today up on Capitol Hill about some of his most controversial views as he tries to become the next U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00] BLITZER: Some of President-elect Donald Trump's most controversial cabinet picks are back up on Capitol Hill tonight trying to lock down support from key Republican senators and even a few Democratic senators.

CNN's Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju has details for us. Manu, it appears RFK Jr.'s evolved abortion views were discussed.

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's been a topic of a number of meetings with Republican senators. Remember, RFK Jr., who used to be a Democrat and actually espoused abortion rights views, really polar opposite a lot of these Republican senators who are strongly anti-abortion. But what he's been saying in these closed door meetings is that he would be in line with Donald Trump's views on abortion if he's confirmed to the post.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): We talk about abortion, and the big thing about abortion is he's telling everybody, he said listen, whatever President Trump, I'm going to back him 100 percent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: One of the other big questions too, Wolf, is the issue of vaccines. Of course, RFK Jr. has talked about that debunked theory in the past about linking autism to the use of vaccines in childhood.

In these closed door meetings, I'm told by Republican senators, he's not saying that explicitly, but he says he wants to get to the bottom of the increased autism rate. And he says that he wants to have a, quote, top to bottom review of all vaccines and look at the science. That's according to a number of Republican senators. And one of them, Senator John Thune, the incoming Republican majority leader, told our colleague, Ted Barrett, that he said, I think he's done a good job answering the questions about his views on vaccines.

So, that is a positive sign for him to get the job. But to do that, of course, he's going to limit Republican defections to just three in the New Year.

BLITZER: And I know, Manu, you had a chance to speak to Senator Susan Collins about her views on RFK Jr. and Trump's pick to lead the U.S. intelligence community, Tulsi Gabbard.

RAJU: Yes, that was right after she met with Tulsi Gabbard. Look, Gabbard herself has been controversial. She had a 2017 meeting with the then-Syrian leader, Bashar al-Assad. She has espoused views critical of Ukraine, and even people like Susan Collins have been staunchly pro-Ukraine.

I asked her about our national and whether Collins had any concerns about what she heard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): We talked about Syria, her visit to see Assad. We talked about Ukraine. We talked about Putin. We talked about NATO. We talked about her positions on introducing legislation that would have removed the criminal charges for Snowden. And so it was a very broad and wide ranging conversation.

RAJU: Do you have any reservations about her or RFK Jr. at this point on vaccines, RFK Jr.?

COLLINS: As I've told you many, many times, I'm not going to make a decision on nominees about whom I have questions until we're through the process. That's the approach I have always taken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And, of course, she is one of the votes to watch on a handful of these key nominations, including Pete Hegseth, the Defense Department pick. But, Wolf, in order to ensure that she gets -- any of these get the jobs, they need to -- they can afford to lose Susan Collins perhaps, but they got to limit those Republican defections. If they lose four, that'll be enough to scuttle their chances at the moment.

None of these Republican senators are voicing opposition, but those like Susan Collins not committing to supporting those nominees, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, very interesting indeed. Manu Raju up on Capitol Hill, thank you very much.

Coming up, we'll get back to our coverage of Madison, Wisconsin, with a closer look at what makes the Wisconsin school shooting rare and different from other mass casualty events here in the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:49:12]

BLITZER: Yesterday's deadly school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin, is sadly a very familiar scene here in the United States.

By CNN's count, it's the 83rd U.S. school shooting of the year. One unusual aspect of this particular case, however, the suspect's gender.

Our Brian Todd has more for us right now. Brian, it's extremely rare for females to be carrying out these mass attacks.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it is so rare that when it does happen, it really does stand out.

Tonight, we have spoken with people who track these incidents in the U.S. about why the overwhelming majority of mass shooters are male.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHIEF SHON F. BARNES, MADISON POLICE: At this time, it appears that the motive was a combination of factors. TODD (voice-over): As investigators sought through possible motives in

the shooting at the Abundant Life Christian School, what's not in question is that the suspect, 15-year-old Natalie Rupnow, who went by the name Samantha, has now become part of a minuscule demographic in the archive of mass shooters in the United States.

DARRIN PORCHER, FORMER NYPD LIEUTENANT: It's extremely rare for a woman to be the subject in an active shooter investigation.

TODD: Data from the group Everytown for Gun Safety, which advocates for stronger gun laws, shows that out of more than 540 school shootings over the past 11 years, where the gender of the shooter is known, less than 5 percent of the shooters were female.

The Violence Project looked at mass shootings overall, not just those committed at schools, and found that only 2 percent are perpetrated by females. These cases are so rare that they really stand out historically.

In April 2018, 38 year old Nasim Najafi Aghdam opened fire at YouTube headquarters in San Bruno, California, wounding three people before killing herself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At least 12 fatalities.

TODD: December 2015, Tashfeen Malik and her husband Rizwan Farook targeted a holiday event at the public health department in San Bernardino, California, shooting and killing 14 people before they were killed by police. The FBI later said the couple was inspired by foreign terrorist groups.

Analysts who examined mass shootings and who study women committing violence say there are varied reasons why the overwhelming majority of mass shooters are male.

KRIS MOHANDIE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: There's a biological basis to it, but overwhelmingly there's a lot of sex role socialization that goes into conditioning males to resolve problems aggressively.

TODD: Responses to being bullied or the avenging of perceived grievances, analysts say, are often handled differently between the sexes.

MIA BLOOM, AUTHOR, "VEILED THREATS": The men focus the violence outwards, and women very often focus the violence inwards. Women tend to express when they're being bullied. They tend to express the violence on themselves.

The women engaged in self-harm are cutting themselves, or they've got an eating disorder, or they might take pills, but it's a different form of focusing that rage.

TODD: And experts say women who do strike others often gravitate toward their targets differently.

ADAM LANKFORD, CRIMINOLOGY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA: Women tend to strike out with their aggression at people they're close to, rather than strangers.

TODD: But once perpetrators do commit to harming large groups of people, analysts say the underlying reasons for doing so aren't so different between males and females.

MOHANDIE: Grievance fixation, identification with prior shooters very similar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): Analyst and author Mia Bloom is worried that the culprit in Wisconsin might start a new and horrifying trend of female mass shooters. Bloom is concerned that Natalie Rupnow might become a symbol and incentivize other young women to follow suit -- Wolf.

BLITZER: A very worrisome indeed. Brian Todd, thanks for that report.

Brian Todd helping us, as always.

Coming up, an update tonight from NASA on when two American astronauts could be coming back to earth after being in space for months longer than planned.

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[18:57:24]

BLITZER: And this just in to CNN. NASA now says two astronauts stuck on the International Space Station will have to wait even longer to come back to Earth. The pair had already had their stay on the space station extended by several months.

CNN contributor Kristin Fisher is joining us right now.

Kristin, what's behind this decision from NASA?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Wolf, basically, there's an issue with the backup spacecraft that's supposed to rescue them or at least bring them back to earth, so to speak.

Not so much an issue, but just the fact that it's not ready yet. So you'll remember Butch and Suni, they were supposed to come back on that Boeing Starliner capsule on its maiden test flight back in June. It didn't happen because NASA deemed it to be unsafe. So they've been waiting up at the International Space Station as part of a crew rotation, right?

So you have to wait until the next crew and the next spacecraft is ready to come up there and relieve you. So, crew nine came up. Now they're waiting for crew ten. That is -- that was supposed to be in February. Now we just learned its going to be delayed one month until mid to late March of 2025.

And the reason why, according to NASA and SpaceX, and I'm quoting here, they say they need extra time to complete processing on a new Dragon spacecraft for the mission. So this is you know, SpaceX has a lot of dragon spacecrafts. They've been used quite frequently. It's the primary means by which NASA astronauts get to and from the International Space Station. So they've been planning on getting this new one up and running. It's just not quite ready yet.

So for Butch and Suni, it means they've got to wait at least one more month, Wolf.

BLITZER: And talk a little bit, Kristin, about the mental and physical toll being in space can take on the human body.

FISHER: And microgravity being weightless, it looks fun, but it really does take a toll on your muscles in particular. You know, you see all these astronauts working out up there, and that's really something that's necessary to keep your body fit.

But, you know, just keeping this in perspective, I was just doing the math, Butch and Suni have only been up at the International Space Station for about 195 days. Compare that to the record for the longest American NASA astronaut in space. And that's Frank Rubio with 371 days.

So this is by no means unprecedented in terms of the amount of time that butch and sunny have been up there. What's different, of course, is that their mission has been extended from what was supposed to be about a week to now approaching, I believe nine months now. So that's what's different.

And, Wolf, when you talk to Frank Rubio about what that was like, he said it was really tough when he first found out his mission was extended from six months to a year. But once you get past that initial shock, he was able to do the job that he was sent there to do, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Let's hope they come back safe and sound and come back soon. Kristin Fisher, thank you very, very much.

And to our viewers, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.

"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.