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The Situation Room
Plan to Ban Food Dyes; Pope Francis Funeral Plans; Pope Francis' Funeral Set for Saturday. Aired 10:30-11a ET
Aired April 22, 2025 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:30:00]
ROSIE O'DONNELL, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "UNLEASHING HOPE": And then, you don't know what to do. This is a service that is for you. It's for free, and it is very, very successful as it has been with my family.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, we are so happy to hear that it has been so successful.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
BROWN: And as a dog lover myself, I'm not surprised about the impact that this service dog has had on your family and so many others, particularly those with autism.
I want to get your reaction to something that RFK Jr., the HHS secretary, recently said that sparked controversy with these comments about autistic people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HHS SECRETARY: These are kids who will never pay taxes. They'll never hold a job. They'll never play baseball. They'll never write a poem. They'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, he has since clarified that he was talking about a subset of people with severe autism. I just want to make sure that's out there. But go ahead.
O'DONNELL: Yes, I think it's very disrespectful. I think it's disgraceful. And I think he is wholly unqualified to be the head of Health and Human Services. I think most of the cabinet picks that Donald Trump has made are part of his vision of a reality show government and not the most qualified people available, especially Robert Kennedy, and to think that his family is the one that created the Special Olympics and he would go on with such disgraceful, dehumanizing remarks is absolutely deplorable, and I feel he should resign or be released from his position.
BLITZER: Rosie O'Donnell, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks so much for all you are doing. We really appreciate it.
BROWN: Thank you.
O'DONNELL: Thank you both. Appreciate it.
BROWN: Just ahead, they have been a target of Robert F. Kennedy. And soon, we're going to learn about the plan to ban some food dyes in U.S. foods. I'll speak to a former FDA commissioner next.
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[10:35:00]
BROWN: Happening today, the Trump administration is preparing sweeping changes to the nation's food supply with a plan to ban artificial food dyes. The additives have long been a target of HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. He blames them for causing health problems and children. Let's get reaction now from former FDA Commissioner, Dr. Robert Califf. Hi, Doctor. Thanks for coming on. Do you support this move?
DR. ROBERT CALIFF, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Well, I mean, it's good to be with you, first of all. And I don't really know if I support it or not because we need to hear the details of exactly what's planned. I don't have any inside information about exactly what they plan to do. So, like a lot of people, I'll be listening in at 4:00 p.m. to see what the plan is.
BROWN: So, I'll just tell you, because I've been speaking with sources who are familiar with this announcement and he's going to be announcing later this afternoon that the FDA is going to work to phase out and eventually ban eight petroleum-based food dyes.
As you know, RFK Junior has been outspoken about food dyes. And now, the FDA is going to announce that phase out. I know that the red food dye, red 3, I believe it was, was banned when you were at the FDA. And now, he's taken it a step further in banning eight. What do you think about that?
DR. CALIFF: Well, I think, you know, I tuned into Sanjay Gupta earlier today on CNN, and I thought he did a great job of reviewing the evidence. The evidence is really murky about whether these dyes cause cancer or whether they cause behavioral problems in particular children. And so, the decision about what to do with the dyes really depends on the degree to which you want to employ the precautionary principle. If there might be a problem, would you do something?
And the history of regulation through the laws in the United States have said, you got to have really good evidence to take that kind of an action. And there's a very extensive administrative process of rulemaking where you put out an announcement and then there's a year for people to make comments and get them resolved. I have a feeling the administration's going to do something a little different and move more quickly, but we'll see.
I think one of the most important points that Dr. Gupta made, which I completely agree with, is that these dyes have absolutely no nutritional value. So, out of all the things I worry about with regard to FDA, whether I agree or disagree with a specific way this is done, it's not going to affect the nutritional status of Americans in a negative way at all. And so, I don't think it's that big a deal.
What it will affect is the shopping that people do, because colors aren't going to be as bright. That's really the only value has been to promote foods like Skittle or Froot Loops and things like that, that have bright colors. And when the companies have tried to reduce the dyes on their own the purchasing has gone down. And that may not be a bad thing because most of these brightly colored foods are not are not healthy.
So, I sort of have a, you know, mixed reaction. Let's see what the plan is, but I don't see any real value in these food dyes other than looking good.
BROWN: Right. And on that note, and given the limited amount of research, the current FDA commissioner said that, look, why not err on the side of safety with banning these dyes? You know, lots of other countries ban these artificial dyes. They require natural alternatives instead. Do you think that the U.S. is behind when it comes to this?
[10:40:00]
DR. CALIFF: Well, I'd say the U.S. is different, but it's a little more complicated than the way it's being portrayed. If you actually look at what happens in other countries, there's a mixture of things that have been banned and then things that are just advertised differently.
BROWN: Based on the label.
DR. CALIFF: And of course, the eating habits are different. So, I don't think it's quite so simple as none of these things are allowed in Europe. That's not true either. On the other hand --
BROWN: Some of them are banned, but some of them also require labels and so forth. Go ahead.
DR. CALIFF: That's right. So, you know, the U.S. in general is a more risk-taking society in many ways. You could look at guns, you could look at all sorts of other things, we tolerate more risk, and I'm not in favor of tolerating more risk. So, that's why I'm sort of saying, hey, you know, this sounds OK to me. It's not the biggest thing that I'm concerned about, but it sounds OK.
BROWN: What is the biggest thing you're concerned about? And I ask that because Marion Nestle, who I'm sure you know, is this prominent food policy researcher, says that the bigger thing here is ultra- processed food, which is a much tougher problem, she says, than food dyes in a far more important one. Do you agree?
DR. CALIFF: Well, all right. So, let me back up. The biggest thing I'm worried about is getting the evidence that we need to know what's right and what's not right about all the claims and opinions and ideas that exist about food. How many people can write books that sell millions of dollars' worth that are completely contradictory with each other? And with the big layoffs at FDA, I don't know who's going to look at all this evidence that's needed to sort out.
And you also may be aware that the most prominent researcher in ultra- processed foods at NIH just resigned in protest and wrote a scathing letter that his research was being overseen in a way that suppressed the results and they weren't coming out because they were a little contradictory to the sort of broad sweeping statements that are being made.
So, yes. I'd call your attention, you may have seen it, the NCI, National Cancer Institute, put out a report yesterday that showed that the death rate from cancer has been declining in the U.S. for over 20 straight years, and that was true for the last year. They measure 2022 to 2023. And what's mostly declining are tobacco related deaths, lung cancer and such. What's increasing our obesity related cancers.
So, yes, there's a lot to the ultra-processed food issue, but we need to understand it better. Some parts of ultra-processing are good because they keep food from spoiling on the shelf, and particularly people that live in areas that are food deserts, they need to at least have access to food. But we can sort this out, but not if we don't invest in the science and in the people who can evaluate the science.
BROWN: Yes. Let me follow up on that. Because you mentioned the deep cuts at the nation's top public health agencies, you've said that the FDA, as we've known, is finished with most of the leaders with institutional knowledge and the deep understanding of product development and safety no longer employed. You even mentioned that the processed food expert who left. How do you think all of this will impact food and drug safety for Americans?
DR. CALIFF: Well, I'm really worried that we're going to slogan-based policy here without the deep interrogation and scientific discourse and disagreements and further studies that are needed to get the right answer here. It's very concerning.
I was hardened. I noticed a couple of appointments that FDA announced today were people that I know well and are more what I would call the traditional evidence-base kinds of people. So, there's always hope. And while I detest these cuts that were very poorly planned, poorly executed, and inhumane in many ways to the employees and are disabling our science apparatus, there's always hope that we can pull this back and get the evidence we need.
BROWN: Just --
DR. CALIFF: You know, I want to emphasize again, there's no doubt that the American diet is not good. The easiest thing to do if you go to the store in Americas to buy food that's not good for you. So, I really applaud the effort to fix that. We just need to make sure we don't just use slogans, but we actually get the facts.
BROWN: I'm just curious on the evidence that is so important in making big decisions, right, when it comes to something like food dye or -- you know, how do you gather enough evidence and studies? Because Marion Nestle, for her part, has argued, look, you're not just going to put, you know, a bunch of kids in a room and give them food, dye all day long and, you know, see what the risks are. I mean, it's tough. It's kind of like with pregnant women, there's not a lot of studies on pregnant women because you're not going to subject pregnant women to that kind of risk. Do you see what I'm saying?
DR. CALIFF: Oh yes, absolutely. And this is an area where we're going to have to make some hard decisions. because to do the right studies will take years. And you know, again, there's hope here because both Dr. Bhattacharya, the NIH director, and Dr. Makary, the new FDA commissioner, who took my place, have written a lot about big data and what it can now do.
[10:45:00]
Because the effects of all these things are very small on a day-to-day basis but they accumulate over time in large populations. So, if we eat a bad diet, you know, we don't get sick and die the next day. It takes, you know, 20, 30 years to come down with diabetes and then vascular disease or cancer. So, it's going to take a long time to get the answers, but it's entirely possible now with our new computing resources and A.I., all the methods that are now becoming available that we can sort this out.
In the interim, we're going to have to make decisions. And typically, the big decider there is U.S. Congress, which writes the laws. We'll see how the Congress handles this. In my experience, having run the FDA twice the biggest impediment to a healthy diet were the same people who are now in favor of it. So, I'm excited that maybe the tide is turning and we will move to a healthier diet.
BROWN: We will see, I think most of us would want that, right?
DR. CALIFF: The politics have changed.
BROWN: Right.
DR. CALIFF: Yes. Those who were defending the ultra-processed heavy meat diets are now getting on a bandwagon for a healthier diet.
BROWN: All right. Dr. Robert Califf, thank you so much for your time.
DR. CALIFF: You bet. Take care.
BROWN: Thanks. Wolf.
BLITZER: Very interesting interview. Thank you very much, Pamela, for that. And coming up, we're getting new details right now about the funeral plans for Pope Francis. We're live in Rome with the latest. Stay with us.
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[10:50:00]
BLITZER: Right now at the Vatican, funeral plans are -- for Pope Francis are set for Saturday morning in St. Peter's Square. Right now, his body is in an open coffin in the chapel of the papal residence. Thousands of people are expected when public viewing begins tomorrow morning in St. Peter's Basilica.
We want to go live to Rome right now. Joining us, CNN's Anderson Cooper and our Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward. Anderson, the funeral, as we know, will be held Saturday morning. Pope Francis requested a simplified funeral, right?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: That's right. He did. Not only that, it simplified burial, not a lot of adornment on any kind of headstone or marker. And also, just the name of Franciscus as the inscription, that's it. Nothing else.
But you know, I think it's representational of how he lived his life. The humbleness. As Wolf mentioned, he's lying in state in the papal residence of Santa Marta, which is about 10 minutes' walk from here.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And when -- this picture that you're seeing behind us, Anderson, where there's a handful of tourists streaming in, paying their respects. But currently, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people who are on their way to try to make sure that they are here when the pope's body will lay in state publicly and they will have the opportunity to go and pay their respects. And again, as you were saying with the funeral, it's going to look very different to what we've seen before.
Previously the popes would be buried three coffins nested within one another, and the coffin would be put up on this pedestal. So, there was a kind of pomp and ceremony to it. Pope Francis said, I don't want that. I want one coffin. I want it to be wood lined with zinc. I want no pedestal.
COOPER: And he's not going to be buried in Vatican City, which I think he's the first pontiff not to be buried in Vatican City in the last a hundred years.
WARD: Oh, it's more than a hundred years. Actually it went a little bit earlier to Santa Maria Majure. There are six --
COOPER: Which is the Basilica where he wants to be buried, which is closer --
WARD: That's the basilica.
COOPER: -- to the coliseum than it is to here.
WARD: It is. It's about a 25-minute drive from here. There are six or seven popes, I believe, who were buried there, but not since the 1600ths.
COOPER: Wow.
WARD: So, again, this is all about him cementing his reputation as a reformer. Even in death, he is continuing to try to steer the way the Catholic Church turns, and it'll be very interesting to see, as we get on in the coming weeks to the conclave, whether that extends to that. He had actually sort of stacked the deck, if you will, with the cardinals. Four out of five he had appointed. COOPER: Yes.
WARD: So, you can assume that the cardinals who will be voting, who have to be under 80, will have a similar kind of vision.
COOPER: I also learned that about less than -- I think almost half or a little bit less than half of the cardinals who will be voting at the conclave are actually from the Global South, which is the first time in history that that has occurred, that the majority are not from European countries.
WARD: And he appointed people from countries that had never had a cardinal.
COOPER: Yes.
WARD: Laos, Mali, Guinea. This was a pope who was really committed to making the Catholic church a more inclusive place, a place that was focused on those who need help the most, the needy, the marginalized, the poor, the migrants. You see these images. I can't get them out of my mind of him washing people's feet in this, you know --
COOPER: In some ways, it makes the conclave even more of sort of wild cards of how some of this sort of more non-traditional cardinals from places that hadn't had cardinals before, how they will actually vote, how they will actually partake in the conclave.
And as the -- as Clarissa was talking about it, it is tomorrow that the public here is really going to get a chance to really first actually see Pope Francis. There's going to be a procession from the residents of Santa Marta to the basilica where he's going to lie in state. That starts at 9:00 a.m. Eastern time here, 3:00 p.m. -- 3:00 a.m. Eastern time in the United States. Wolf.
BLITZER: Anderson, Pamela has a question she wants to ask you as well. Go ahead, Pam.
BROWN: Oh, no, I was just noting we just got some new information that Pope Francis describes death as a, quote, "beginning."
[10:55:00]
And this is going to be in a text published this week, the Italian media is reporting. I'm not sure if you've seen that there, but I think that's really profound and something, you know, a lot of us will be interested in reading that he wrote this before his death. He knew it wasn't far away after all the illnesses and sicknesses. And now, he's describing it, according to the Italian media, as a beginning.
COOPER: Yes. Well, you know, it's interesting. I talked to a friend of his last night, somebody who has worked with him as well in a number of charitable causes. And I asked him if he was sad about the Pope's death. And while obviously he knew him as a friend and cared deeply for him and there was sadness in that and mourning in that, he was happy that in the mind of Pope Francis, that Francis had gone home. And this is something that Francis had looked forward to. And it is extraordinary the way -- I don't know if he was able to hold on until after Easter and the day -- and particularly the day after Easter, which is such an important day for the faithful here. But the fact that he was able to survive in the hospital when -- which he almost died, and yet, made it through these incredibly important last several days.
WARD: Very profound.
COOPER: Yes. Pam.
BLITZER: All right. Anderson Cooper and Clarissa Ward in Rome for us. Guys, thank you very, very much. And we'll be right back.
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