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The Situation Room

ICE Crackdown in Chicago; Interview With Rep. Mike Lawler (R- NY); RFK Jr. Gutting the CDC?. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 15, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: They have been priced out of the market, right? A lot of them, they're buying used cars instead. And so the more affluent buyers are buying more cars.

I do think, Pamela, this just is another reminder of the K-shaped economy, right? People who have money in the market, they're often doing better right now. Lower-income families, they're struggling to get by. They're not buying new cars, certainly not at these prices -- back to you.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: All right, Matt Egan, thank you so much.

The next hour THE SITUATION ROOM starts right now.

Happening now: dire new warnings about the CDC, former top officials at the agency coming together to share their fears about Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his plans to slash the CDC during the government shutdown.

Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world, I'm Pamela Brown. Wolf Blitzer is on assignment, and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

And new this morning, the nation's health officials who resigned in protest for the CDC are issuing fresh warnings. In a Zoom call minutes ago, they said that Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the health and human services secretary, is using the government shutdown as an excuse to gut the CDC.

Hundreds of jobs were eliminated there over the weekend, and the union says nearly a quarter of the work force has been terminated under the Trump administration. The agency's former leaders say it's jeopardizing the health of Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DEBRA HOURY, FORMER CDC CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: Science can't get out to the American public. So when you take a step back, this is now the third series of cuts to CDC among their staff, traumatic for the staff and really leaving CDC less prepared to protect all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Dr. Houry will join us live in a moment.

But, first, let's bring in CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell.

Meg, what more can you tell us about these layoffs?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Pamela, we just got new numbers in a court filing from the Department of Health and Human Services that showed that the number of layoffs were even bigger than we'd originally heard.

They originally told more than 1,700 HHS employees they were going to lose their jobs and then revised that to 982. So that's almost 800 people who were told they were losing their jobs and then were told actually that was a mistake. HHS said that was -- quote -- "a result of data discrepancies and processing errors."

And a huge bulk of these were at the CDC, about 1,300 people originally told they were losing their jobs. Then 700 were reinstated. Now, among some of those functions that were reinstated included folks working on the flagship journal at CDC called MMWR, people working on the measles response in the Respiratory and Immunization Center, as well as the disease detectives, the Epidemic Intelligence Service.

Now, it's heartening to hear for people in public health that those roles were reinstated, but they're still warning there are massive sort of hobblings of agency functions at CDC, including the entire Washington office, so people who communicate with policymakers, a huge portion of the H.R. department, communications, so actually getting the science out to the public.

People working in violence prevention and the Injury Center, as well as people who are supporting the mental health of CDC employees, including after the shooting, which was just two months ago, so some of those workers gone. The Institutional Review Board, which reviews research at the CDC and oversees research, as well as the Ethics Office, which in part reviews conflicts of interest.

So, Pamela, a lot of concerns about what these cuts are going to lead to. And as we heard, this is, of course, not the first round. It's another of the deep cuts we have seen at this public health agency.

BROWN: It is.

I also want to ask you about this new polling out on how parents view Secretary Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again movement. Walk us through that, if you would.

TIRRELL: Yes, this is a "Washington Post"/KFF poll, that health policy research group, which found that about 38 percent of American parents identify as supporters of the Make America Healthy Again movement.

And, interestingly, you see agreement among U.S. parents in general on several issues, including things like regulating food policy more closely, things like dyes, chemical additives, ultra-processed foods. There's agreement on those kinds of things. But where you see divergence from parents who identify with the MAHA movement and parents who don't are on things like what the administration calls overmedication or too much use of medications, fluoride in the drinking water, neurodevelopmental disorders like autism and ADHD, also things like gun violence, where you see parents who don't identify as MAHA supporters really thinking that's a much bigger problem than MAHA supporters do -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Meg Tirrell, thanks so much.

Let's get some analysis now. Joining us is the former CDC chief medical officer Dr. Debra Houry, who resigned in protest over Secretary Robert F. Kennedy's leadership of the agency.

Thank you for joining us.

So, you and another former senior CDC leader are warning that Secretary Kennedy is gutting the CDC during the government shutdown. Tell us more about your concerns.

[11:05:08]

HOURY: Yes, I'm really concerned.

This is now the third cut that has happened to CDC. And they lost over 600 staff over the weekend, many of them, as you all mentioned, in very critical areas, including Ethics Office, which reviews conflicts of interest that the secretary has set is a priority.

Also things like the Institutional Review Board, which is necessary for any research protecting human subjects. And this is just on top of when you look at the number of boots on the ground that are needed to protect Americans in the United States. CDC is (AUDIO GAP) cuts.

BROWN: So help us better understand then, to your point, the direct line, in your view, between these firings and how it could impact the everyday American.

HOURY: Yes, so now they are down to about 25 percent less at the work force. So when there's an outbreak, there's going to be less people ready to respond. They had actually cut the suicide prevention team, but did bring them back.

And that's one of the areas to where we get the most requests is for suicide clusters. I think what I (AUDIO GAP) H.R. office has gone at CDC. So if we need to -- they need to surge staff to bring more people on to respond to things, there's no part of the agency that can support getting additional staff.

And for, like, you and me, if there's another outbreak, a lot of the communications people aren't around now to get that information to the public. And there's one survey called NHANES which looks at nutrition and food all across the nation. That no longer has the capacity to do that.

So I am just concerned about some of the keys (AUDIO GAP) outbreak (AUDIO GAP).

BROWN: Obviously, you have the measles situation going on. It was in Texas, now South Carolina, where you're seeing this outbreak. And just walk us through a little bit more about how these firings could impact the response to that.

HOURY: Yes, so they actually had fired the top two people on the measles response, but did bring them back over the weekend, certainly not great for the staff morale to kind of have the whiplash.

But the measles team itself is in place. But what's not in place then is, like, the CDC Washington office (AUDIO GAP) offices about measles. Also, many of the forecasting and data experts have been fired. So they can't provide that up-to-date data as needed on measles.

This is where it's really all of an agency that's needed for CDC.And when you keep cutting parts of it with a sledgehammer versus a scalpel, they aren't poised to respond effectively.

BROWN: All right, Dr. Debra Houry, thank you so much.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Still ahead: Leaders in Congress don't appear to be any closer to budging on their federal funding fight with the government shutdown in week three.

Up next, we're asking Republican Congressman Mike Lawler about how his party is handling it.

And then later: the woman federal agents shot in Chicago after they say she rammed them with her car making her first appearance in court right now. And we're getting some live updates from inside that courtroom just ahead in THE SITUATION ROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:12:52]

BROWN: Happening now, House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries and other Democrats are set to hold a news conference marking day 15 of the government shutdown any minute now, and there is still no deal in sight to end the stalemate.

Joining us to discuss this and more is Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York. He's a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Hi, Congressman. Thanks for coming on.

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Thanks for having me.

BROWN: So I want to play what President Trump said about the shutdown yesterday. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Democrats are getting killed. And we're going to have a list of them on Friday closing up some of the most egregious, socialist, semi-communist, probably not full communist -- we're saving that for New York -- but semi-communist programs, and we're closing them up.

We're not closing up Republican programs because we think they work. So we are closing up Democrat programs that we think that we disagree with, and they're never going to open again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So you represent a swing district, therefore a lot of Democrats. Do support the president targeting -- quote -- "Democrat programs"? And do you have an understanding of what that means exactly?

LAWLER: No, I don't support just gutting programs or agencies or departments. And I have said that from the very beginning.

But, Pamela, this is exactly why shutting down the government is so stupid. And if Democrats want to prevent the administration from exerting executive authority, then they should do their jobs and vote to reopen the government.

From my vantage point, I have said this very clearly. When Republicans tried to shut the government down during Joe Biden's administration, I opposed it, because it doesn't actually serve a purpose. Democrats are doing this here because they are trying to appease their far left base and show them that they are fighting back against President Trump.

But, actually, all they're doing is ceding authority, because you don't have funding for these programs. You don't have authorization for these programs. That's why the appropriations process is so vital. And Democrats voted 13 times under Joe Biden to keep the government funded and open.

[11:15:04]

Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries lectured every Republican, every American about the need to keep the government open, to pass clean C.R.s, that you don't hold the American people hostage over a policy dispute. There are a lot of issues to deal with, but you don't shut the government down as a means of doing -- of addressing it.

So, to me, this is very simple. If you don't want programs to be cut, if you don't want federal employees to be laid off, then go vote to open the government back up. It's the fastest way to solve the problem.

BROWN: So, basically, though, you're conflating the shutdown with the ending of these programs, right? I mean, putting the broader...

LAWLER: No, they're tied together. They're tied together.

BROWN: So do you think that that's the right approach by the administration to end these programs because of the shutdown?

LAWLER: Well, look, when Barack Obama was president, they made decisions. They shut certain agencies down. They stopped employees from coming to work. They furloughed people. This is what happens when you run out of money, when you don't have funding for these vital programs.

So, from my vantage point, there's a very simple solution here. House Republicans passed a clean C.R. over three weeks ago to keep the government funded and open. Senate Democrats should join Senate Republicans today and pass the clean C.R. to keep the government open and funded through November 21, so that we can finish our Fiscal Year 26 appropriations process and address issues like the Affordable Care Act subsidies, which are slated to expire at the end of the year.

But you don't do this by holding the American people hostage at the barrel of a gun. And Democrats should stick to what they have previously said on every shutdown debate up until this year.

BROWN: So the Trump administration has already saw this -- you were talking about, to cancel federal dollars meant to go to different programs and meant to go to subway projects in New York, your home state.

And the president said, if New Yorkers elect Zohran Mamdani, the Democratic candidate in the city's mayoral race, that he will pull back more federal funding from the city. Is that acceptable to you?

LAWLER: Well, Zohran Mamdani becoming mayor of New York City most assuredly is not acceptable to me. You have an avowed socialist talking about raising taxes on New Yorkers by $9 billion on an annual basis, defunding the police, shutting down prisons, legalizing prostitution.

BROWN: Clearly, you're not a fan of...

LAWLER: No, that's not acceptable.

BROWN: But -- no, I know you're not a fan, clearly, of him as a mayor or candidate.

But with the president's threat here about pulling more federal funding if he is elected.

LAWLER: Yes.

Look, these infrastructure projects are critical to New York. They're critical to my district. I have pushed back against funding cuts to New York. But this is obviously a moment where New York needs to also work with the federal government. And, under Kathy Hochul, that has not happened.

And I think there are challenges. There are policy disagreements. I want to continue to make sure that New York gets the resources that it needs, that it deserves. But you have got to work with the administration. And I think, when you have a situation in New York, for instance, when

it comes to its sanctuary state and sanctuary city policies, when they refuse to work with Immigration and Customs officials, when they refuse to enforce federal law, that creates a challenge. It creates a problem.

So, look, this is a situation where you have got to work with the federal government. New York should do that. There's going to be disagreements. You work through those disagreements. My job is to continue to fight and advocate for my district and fight for New York. I will continue to do that.

BROWN: Before we get to the Middle East, I just want to quickly ask you. We had on Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene on this show last week. And she said -- she was blaming Speaker Johnson and Thune, Leader Thune, for the shutdown. And she said that Republicans should be brought back from recess to talk about this and to negotiate.

Do you agree with her?

LAWLER: No, I don't.

First of all, everybody knows you need 60 votes in the Senate. That has always been the case with the filibuster and passing appropriations. So that hasn't changed. Democrats voted to shut the government down. We voted over three weeks ago to keep the government open and funded. So I fundamentally disagree with the premise of what she said.

And as far as coming back to Washington, I defer to Speaker Johnson. But the fact is, we did our job. We passed government appropriations. There's nothing to negotiate here. As Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer have said so many times in the past, you don't negotiate a clean C.R. You keep the government funded and open.

[11:20:01]

And you don't hold the American people hostage. I agree with their previous statements. Hopefully, they will see the light and vote to open the government up today. Chuck Schumer could do it today, and this whole discussion would be over.

BROWN: All right, before we let you go, I want to turn to the Middle East. I want to -- and play some of the sound of what President Trump said about Hamas yesterday. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If they don't disarm, we will disarm them, and it will happen quickly and perhaps violently. But they will disarm. Do you understand me?

QUESTION: Yes.

(CROSSTALK) TRUMP: Because you always -- everyone says, oh, well, they won't disarm. They will disarm. And I spoke to Hamas. And I said, you're going to disarm, right? Yes, sir, we're going to disarm. That's what they told me. They will disarm or we will disarm them. Got it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. So, first of all, what do you think about the president saying he was talking directly to Hamas, which is a designated terrorist organization in the U.S.? And do you support the United States disarming Hamas, even through force, if it does not disarm itself?

LAWLER: Well, obviously, throughout these negotiations, there's been discussions through emissaries in Egypt and Qatar. And, obviously, you have to deal with Hamas to get to a peace agreement. So that does not surprise me that there may have been conversations direct to try and get this deal across the finish line.

With respect to Hamas, we saw yesterday they were executing Palestinians in the street, OK?So when my colleagues chant "Free Palestine," why are they not speaking out against Hamas, a terrorist organization, executing innocent Palestinians in broad daylight and continuing to bear arms?

From my vantage point, the only way this was ever going to come to an end is if the hostages were released and Hamas surrenders. And so the president is right. If they refuse to disarm, if they refuse to cede control, then ultimately there is going to have to be a escalation and a decision made.

But this is also why it was so critical to have our Arab partners as part of these discussions, as part of these negotiations, and to sign on to the peace agreement. There needs to be accountability. Hamas needs to be held to the agreement. There cannot be backsliding here.

But we all knew the first step, frankly, was going to be the easiest one, which was to get the hostages out. It's part two that's going to be tougher. And this requires all hands on deck, and it requires our partners to hold Hamas to account.

BROWN: All right, Congressman Mike Lawler, thank you so much. Appreciate you coming on the show.

LAWLER: Thank you.

BROWN: And don't forget, tonight, Senator Bernie Sanders and Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez join Kaitlan Collins for a live town hall as the shutdown drags on. That's at 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Coming up: Homeland Security says Mexican drug cartels are putting big-time bounties on ICE and Border Patrol agents in the U.S.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:27:33]

BROWN: Happening now: outrage in Chicago amid an escalation of the immigration crackdown in that city.

This right here is security camera footage showing the moment federal agents yesterday crashed into a car that they say was being driven by an undocumented immigrant. Homeland Security says the car hit them first. That led to this, dozens of protesters sitting on the scene of the accident, triggering a chaotic confrontation.

The tense standoff spiraled after officials say objects were thrown at them, forcing the deployment of tear gas that further inflamed tensions with residents.

In response to all of this, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker said -- quote -- "ICE is an out-of-control danger to our peaceful communities."

And take a look at this photo taken during the standoff. An officer points a crowd-control weapon at a protester as the demonstrator holds his hands up and cowers.

We have some breaking news coming in. A woman who was shot by a federal agent after allegedly ramming a law enforcement vehicle in Chicago earlier this month appeared in court today, and her attorney says bodycam footage contradicts the allegation that she drove toward the officers. The arraignment hearing just wrapping up.

CNN's Omar Jimenez is in Chicago.

He's been reporting on this story.

What did we learn from today's hearing, Omar?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so we just got out literally a few minutes ago, and she pleaded not guilty to essentially forcibly assaulting and impeding a law enforcement officer, a federal officer in this case.

But the overall allegation that we have seen from the U.S. government is that she rammed her vehicle allegedly into this Border Patrol agent in a southwest side of Chicago neighborhood a little bit more than a week ago.

And her defense attorney leading into this had told us that he disputes that language of ramming, because, based on body camera video that he has seen he told us, but has not been released to the public yet, he says that it shows a Border Patrol agent turn the steering wheel to the left, which is where Martinez's car would have been at the time just prior to the impact.

Now, in this particular hearing, it was pretty quick, but we did actually get to see Martinez here. Remember, she was shot five times a little bit more than a week ago as part of this incident, because, after the impact, Border Patrol agents got out and opened fire on her. And she walked in. She seemed to be walking well. Honestly, for someone who had been shot five times a little bit more than a week ago, she looked pretty good. There was no outward signs of recovering from anything of that nature, though we don't know what was underneath.

But, bottom line, this has been a big focal point in regards to the overall sort of push back and forth from local -- and the community here against the federal government.

[11:30:00]