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The Situation Room

Interview With Ukrainian Parliament Member Halyna Yanchenko; Women Leaving Work Force; Court Restricts National Guard Deployment in Illinois. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired October 17, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not really in any danger of being deported or being arrested. If I had darker skin or anything else, like, how traumatizing would that be? We're out here peacefully protesting. There are people in cartoon costumes.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: This is the scene today outside an ICE detention facility in the Chicago suburb of Broadview, where there have been weeks of protests against President Trump's immigration crackdown.

And as those demonstrations unfold, a federal appeals court is now denying Trump's effort to deploy the U.S. National Guard against them, finding no evidence of a so-called rebellion against the government.

Let's go live right now to CNN's Whitney Wild. She's on the scene for us in Broadview, Illinois, just outside of Chicago.

Whitney, what are you seeing now?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Moments ago, Wolf, we saw two protesters who were arrested. Earlier today, we saw that there were nine protesters arrested.

What we are seeing here is what is mostly a peaceful protest. The times when people begin to have some tension with law enforcement is only when they go over these barriers. Let me just give you a live look here.

And what we're looking at here, this is a pretty small protest wall. I mean, it's dozens of protesters outside the Broadview ICE facility. We're about 30 miles West of Chicago here. Even still, this is where we have seen clashes with protesters and law enforcement. We are seeing quite a few members of the Illinois State Police, the

Broadview Police Department, the Cook County Sheriff's Office. There, you see, when law enforcement passes, you see the crowd blowing whistles, heckling at the law enforcement here.

Wolf, scenes that have played out here in Broadview are what prompted this lawsuit that has put significant restrictions on federal agents' ability to use chemical munitions and use use-of-force against peaceful protesters and members of the press in the city and throughout the Chicago metropolitan area.

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I want to quickly talk about what you had mentioned earlier, that an appeals court has upheld this temporary restraining order that limits National Guard's ability to move throughout the state. They remain in a federalized state, but they cannot move throughout Illinois.

The lawsuits about the use of force between federal agents and peaceful protesters, as well as members of the press, right now, there's a temporary restraining order on federal agents. Again, it is meant to curtail their ability to use chemical munitions against peaceful protesters, to use excessive physical force against protesters and members of the press.

That order has actually been refined, Wolf, to include now a judge demanding that federal agents who are part of Operation Midway Blitz, she wants them to wear body cameras and she wants to ensure that they're recording. So that was an update that we got yesterday.

And then, finally, Wolf, we have seen how Chicago has really become the epicenter of this immigration crackdown. The Department of Homeland Security -- this is first reported by CNN -- announced that they had arrested a local police officer from a neighboring area called Hanover Park because they say that he overstayed a visa.

Meanwhile, Hanover Park Police Department says that, when they hired him, he had legal status. So they are pushing back on those claims. DHS says plainly he is in the country illegally, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Whitney Wild reporting for us from the scene.

Whitney, thank you very, very much -- Pamela.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: All right, Wolf, just ahead: Women are leaving the work force at the highest rate seen in years. So what's causing the shift and what could this mean for the overall economy?

We will be back.

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[11:40:54]

BROWN: Happening now, U.S. stocks starting the day with a mixed opening as investors deal with several concerns, like tariffs and bad bank loans.

One thing that hasn't spooked the markets is the labor market. The numbers have been solid this summer, despite hiring slowdowns. There is a trend that is emerging. The data reveal women are leaving the work force at the highest rate we have seen since the COVID-19 pandemic.

And this chilling trend has some economists sounding the alarm about the potential impact.

I want to bring in seeing in business and politics correspondent Vanessa Yurkevich.

What's going on here, Vanessa?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, it's an alarming trend, women leaving the work force at numbers not seen since the pandemic, which was when the entire world shut down.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 455,000 women, so almost half-a-million women, have left the work force between January and August of just this year. And economists are very concerned if this trend continues, because they say it will reverse gains made by women in the labor force since the pandemic, but also could slow economic growth.

And It is highly educated women and black women that are leading the exodus from the work force. And here's why. A lot of these women, they're mothers. They have children at home. And childcare costs are just too high right now. It doesn't make sense for them to be in the work force and pay these high childcare rates.

Also, you have a lot of companies really mandating return to office, so no longer providing that flexibility for women. And then you also have the slashing of public sector jobs and the rolling back of DEI initiatives, which really has impacted black women the most.

Pamela, we see this trend in the data, but we're also hearing about this from dozens of women. My colleague Alicia Wallace spoke to dozens of women who said that they really didn't feel like there was much of a choice here, that it was sort of assumed that they would step away from the work force and not their husband, because, Pamela, of another growing trend.

The wage gap is widening between what women make and what men make. Women make 81 cents to the dollar of what men make. That wage gap has widened in the last two years, sort of reversing any gains that were made over the pandemic, so another alarming number to look at for everyone, Pamela.

BROWN: Yes, it certainly is.

Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much.

So, to better understand what's going on with this trend, I want to bring in Jessica Kriegel. She's a workplace culture expert and the chief strategy officer of Culture Partners, and Misty Heggeness, a professor and economist for the University of Kansas.

Nice to have you both on.

So, Misty, let's start with you.

We saw an exodus of women from the work force during the pandemic. We were just talking about that, and then some returned. So why right now are so many leaving, this time seemingly for good?

MISTY HEGGENESS, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS: Yes, thanks, Pam, for having me.

I would say the reporting is spot on there in terms of the reasons why we are seeing a lot of women exit the work force in 2025. The return to office has really cut short for women their ability to work and manage their households.

There's a trend with women's labor force participation, where it pretty much goes up and down with schooling and childcare. So, when your kids have care, you work. When they don't, you stop working. So we know that that's a trend with women's labor force participation.

But what we're seeing now is, with less flexibility, women are exiting and choosing to stay home.

BROWN: And, Jessica, you have led research showing what happens when company leadership roles are filled by women. What did you find?

JESSICA KRIEGEL, CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER, CULTURE PARTNERS: Yes, at Culture Partners, we researched this very issue to look at the impact on revenue growth for companies when women leave the work force, particularly women leaders.

So, what we found was, when more than 50 percent of your leadership roles are filled by women, you have stronger revenue growth, you have stronger culture, and you have higher employee engagement. When you have less than 50 percent of your leadership roles filled by women, those numbers go down, not just for women, but for men as well.

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So this deeply impacts organizations' ability to drive results, to be productive, and to accomplish the goals that they have in mind.

BROWN: And just to follow up with you on that, what about just the overall economy, the impact there?

KRIEGEL: Yes, I mean, obviously, we want as many people in the work force as possible in the thriving economy in order to see the GDP grow, in order for there to be work opportunities.

And if women are leaving the work force at these rates, it is a red flag. And this is something that, I mean, you either believe that this is a problem or you don't. And in order to take accountability, the best thing that you can do is stop trying to figure out who's to blame. Is it the RTO mandate? Is it the federal government work force? Whatever is going on, we just need to figure out, how can I take

accountability? What focus can I have on how I can impact this problem, either in your workplace or in your advocacy, to help make a difference?

BROWN: Misty, I'm curious about the conversations you have had with women who have left and any women who left because they wanted to spend time with their young kids. I am a mom of three little ones, and I understand that pull very much.

But I think that there is a concern among women that, if you leave, it's really hard to get back in. What kind of stories have you heard?

HEGGENESS: Yes, that's a legitimate concern. So one thing that we know about the gender wage gap today is, two-thirds of it is specifically due to parenthood, and motherhood, in specific.

And so when women leave the labor force to have a baby or to care for their child when they're an infant or toddler, basically, even if they return to the work force, they never return to the level that they were at when they left. And it's one of the reasons why we see this big gap.

And so women are having to make decisions about, do I want to stay home and care for my children, or do I want to go out and work? But those decisions don't only impact women and men right now today. They impact their entire lifetime earnings. And so it's a big decision.

BROWN: Yes, wow, that's really weighty, right? And black women have a higher unemployment rate than other groups of women, reaching 6 percent, 7 percent in August. That's more than twice the rate for white women. Why is that, Misty?

HEGGENESS: Yes.

So, there's a lot of reasons why this is. And I tend to think of mothers of small children, black women, and other sorts of sensitive groups that are sensitive to the ability to work as kind of canaries in the coal mine in terms of the well-being and overall health of our work force.

And, essentially, what happens is, these women are the first in and the -- sorry -- the last in and the first out. So if you see labor first participation rates really going up with black women or with women with small children, you can look at that as kind of like we have somewhat of a robust labor market.

The minute things start to go downhill or tighten up, those are the women -- those are the workers who are the first to exit the labor market. And a lot of it has to do with the need for flexibility that these women have and the types of jobs that they have. So it's a problem, and we should be paying more attention to this.

BROWN: And that's why we're doing this segment here today and we're going to continue to cover this.

Misty and Jessica, thank you so much to both of you.

HEGGENESS: Thanks.

BROWN: Well, still to come in THE SITUATION ROOM: In a matter of hours, President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy will meet at the White House for the third time this year, as Zelenskyy pushes Trump to provide crucial long-range Tomahawk missiles.

We're back in just a moment.

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BROWN: Happening now: The White House is making final preparations ahead of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's meeting with President Trump this afternoon.

And CNN is now learning that President Trump did not take the possibility of the U.S. sending long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles to Ukraine off the table during his lengthy call with Russian President Vladimir Putin yesterday.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did actually say: "Would you mind if I gave a couple of thousand Tomahawks to your opposition?"

I did say that to him. I said it just that way. He didn't like the idea. He really didn't like the idea.

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BLITZER: And joining us now to discuss what's going on, Kurt Volker, the former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Jill Dougherty, the former Moscow bureau chief for CNN and the author of a very important brand-new book entitled "My Russia: What I Saw Inside the Kremlin." " Also with us, Helena Yanchenko, a member of Ukraine's Parliament. She's joining us from Kyiv.

Ambassador Volker, let me start with you. You're also the former U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations. What are the factors that President Trump is weighing right now on whether to provide Ukraine with these long-range, very, very significant Tomahawk cruise missiles?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE: Well, I think what he's trying to do is figure out what it will take to get Putin to actually end the war. He's done a good job of aligning the U.S. and Ukraine politically, our economic interests as well. He's got Europeans paying more for defense and buying American weapons to give them to Ukraine.

But Putin has not been willing to make a deal. He's dangling the threat of the Tomahawks now, hoping that that will do it, but Putin is playing the same game. Putin is dangling the talk of peace without really doing it in order to get Trump to back off these threats.

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So I think what President Trump needs to do now is give the Tomahawks to the Ukrainians, put on some secondary sanctions, and then tell the Ukrainians, if Russia calls for a cease-fire, don't fire. But if they refuse and if they don't do a deal, they're all yours.

BROWN: So, Jill, tell us more about why you believe the Kremlin requested this call between President Putin and Trump less than 24 hours before the Zelenskyy meeting today.

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR ON RUSSIAN AFFAIRS: Well, I think it's precisely what Ambassador Volker was saying.

I mean, the question that we have been hearing for several days has been on these Tomahawk missiles, and they could be significant. I mean, when the president says 1,000, I don't think there's any way that Ukraine would get 1,000. But even the idea as a bargaining chip that they would be used is significant.

So I think Putin, knowing that, when he talks to President Trump, he can also -- he can often be very convincing. And I think what he was trying to do is dissuade President Trump from going down that route by telling him, hey, these missiles aren't really that effective. We can shoot them down, and, by the way, if you do that means that the United States is more directly involved in the war. Therefore, relations between our countries will be hurt.

It is standard Putin. He jumps in and tries to convince the other side not to do what they plan to do and to do what he wants them to do.

BLITZER: All right, let me go to Halyna in Kyiv for us. She's a member of the Ukrainian Parliament once again.

Halyna, what do you want to see come out of President Zelenskyy's meeting today with President Trump?

HALYNA YANCHENKO, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: I totally agree with the previous speakers. I want to see some certainty.

We have seen a lot of statements. And I really like and appreciate. And from the -- like, on behalf of Ukrainian Parliament and Ukrainian people, I can say that we are very thankful for the statements that President Trump is saying about Tomahawks, about secondary sanctions.

They are really supportive. And, as we saw, they sort of worked, because Putin actually started to even consider some kind of negotiations or meetings only after President Trump said that he really considers secondary sanctions.

But what we actually saw after Alaska, we saw that Russia continues aggression, continues escalations, because only language Russia and that President Putin understands is the language of power. So I would really hope that this meeting of President Trump and President Zelenskyy will actually follow up with some certain actions, not only words, not only statements, but actually actions.

BROWN: Ambassador Volker, President Trump, to the surprise, I think, of many, announced that he would be meeting at some point with President Putin again, in Budapest this time.

You will recall, just a couple months ago, there was a meeting in Alaska with Putin, and then, after that meeting, there was a ratcheting up of military strikes in Ukraine. What do you expect to come out of this meeting in Budapest?

VOLKER: Right. Well, first off, I don't think it's 100 percent certain that there will be such a meeting.

If you remember, last time, the sequence was that Steve Witkoff went to Russia, met with Putin, thought that he had a deal for a cease- fire. They went to Alaska, and Putin did the opposite. He said, no, there's no cease-fire. And, in fact, I want more. I want more land than I have even been able to take in Ukraine.

Trump then meets with the European leaders in the Oval Office, goes out, calls Putin and Putin says, OK, I will make a deal. I will meet with Zelenskyy. I will do a trilateral meeting with you and Zelenskyy. And then he backs out of that.

So he has lied to President Trump directly and he's embarrassed President Trump in front of all of those other European leaders. So President Trump, I don't think, is playing the same game this time as he did with Alaska. He's sending Rubio to meet with the Russians. I think he wants to know that there actually is a deal.

And then I think we will see about scheduling such a meeting with Putin. And if Russia plays the same game this time, I think we are going to see these Tomahawks and other things move forward.

BLITZER: And quickly, Jill, before I let you go, how do you see the first lady's influence over the U.S. position as far as this war is concerned in Ukraine?

DOUGHERTY: Well, it's interesting, Wolf, because she's been talking about children.

And that is an important issue that hadn't been addressed. She's bringing it up and directly. Remember the letter that she wrote, and President Trump gave it to President Putin. And Putin is now responding, say -- saying, this is something that we can work on together.

So I think it's good news. But I do think, being a bit cynical, that President Putin will try to use that, exploit that as well to curry favor with President Trump.

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BLITZER: All right, Jill Dougherty, Kurt Volker, and Halyna Yanchenko, to all of you, thank you very, very much.

And, to all of our viewers, thanks very much for joining us this morning. You can always keep up with us on social media @WolfBlitzer and @PamelaBrownCNN.

BROWN: And we will see you back here Monday morning at 10:00 Eastern.

"INSIDE POLITICS" with our friend and colleague Dana Bash starts right now.