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Bipartisan Backlash Against Trump's Nominee to Lead Office of Special Counsel; U.S. Government Shutdown Enters Day 21; VP Vance Arrives in Israel. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired October 21, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now. Major bipartisan fallout up on Capitol Hill over President Trump's nominee to lead the Office of Special Counsel. We're talking about Paul Ingrassia. Politico reporting that Ingrassia allegedly sent text messages to a group chat saying the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday, a national holiday, should be, quote, "tossed into the seventh circle of hell," end quote. And that he has, quote, "a Nazi streak." He said that allegedly. CNN's KFILE reported this past summer on Ingrassia's history of racist comments and conspiratorial rants along with his claims that the straight white men are the most intelligent demographic group.

Let's go live right now to CNN's Senior Reporter Annie Grayer. She's up on Capitol Hill for us. Annie, what are you hearing from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle about this nomination?

ANNIE GRAYER, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well, Wolf, Senate Majority Leader John Thune was pretty explicit last night. He said that there are not the votes to confirm Ingrassia and that he thinks the White House should pull Ingrassia's nomination. That is very explicit message from the Senate majority leader. And that's unique because he largely has been supportive of all of President Trump's nominees. And it's not just Thune.

So, Ingrassia was expected to meet in front of the Senate Homeland Security Committee on Thursday for his confirmation hearing and Republican Senator Rick Scott told me last night that he also doesn't support Ingrassia. So, if Scott votes no and assuming all Democrats also vote against Ingrassia, that right there is enough votes to end this nomination.

Trump nominated Ingrassia to lead the Office of Special Counsel which helps federal whistleblowers and civil servant laws but he has been clouded with controversy. As you mentioned, we have been reporting on his history of racist statements and Politico's reporting earlier this week really has created a firestorm around this nomination. I'm going to read for you two more of those text messages allegedly from Ingrassia.

One says quote, "Never trust a Chinaman or Indian, never." Another alleged text message says quote, "Blacks behave that way because that's their natural state. You can't change them." He then added according to the chat, proof, all of Africa is a shithole and will always be that way.

Now, Wolf, Ingrassia's lawyers are pushing back on the Politico story in a statement saying quote, "In this age of A.I., authentication of allegedly leaked messages, which could be outright falsehoods doctored or manipulated or lacking critical context is extremely difficult. We do not concede the authenticity of any of these purported messages." So, that is a position from Ingrassia's camp.

We are going to be watching if the White House makes any adjustments to his nomination throughout the course of the day. Senate Republicans are expected to be at the White House for lunch. So, we'll be watching these dynamics very closely, Wolf.

BLITZER: We certainly will be. Annie Grayer up on Capitol Hill, thank you very, very much. And, Pamela, you know, it's interesting that if Andrew Kaczynski, CNN's Andrew Kaczynski and the KFILE and Politico now can find all these really obscene statements that this individual allegedly made when he was vetted for this position that required Senate confirmation. Why did officials of the White House or the Justice Department, for that matter, learn this?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it's a good question, Wolf. So, let's discuss more. Let's put this to Republican Congressman Marlin Stutzman of Indiana. He serves on both the House Financial Services and Budget Committees. Hi, Congressman.

So, you just heard that report. I want to get to the government shutdown in a moment, but I have to just start with this news. Do you think President Trump should pull Paul Ingrassia's nomination?

REP. MARLIN STUTZMAN (R-IN), FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE AND BUDGET COMMITTEE: Well, I think just like, you know, any accusation, Pamela, that there has to be verification, there has to be further diligence done. I'm sure they're looking into that because they want to be sure that -- you know, that any nominee that they put forward is one that has the character and the integrity that we all expect.

[10:35:00]

So, you know, I don't want to, you know, cast judgment immediately just from that, but I do think that, you know, like in any other situation where there's allegations made, that there should be further investigation, and I'm sure the White House will do that.

BROWN: Of course, the KFILE had its own reporting. Now, this. I mean, if this is verified, that it's not A.I., do you think that the nomination should be pulled?

STUTZMAN: Well, if it's not A.I. and if it is real, I mean, I'm sure there's going to be a conversation between, you know, whether it's the president or the White House with this nominee. You know, I'm actually doing some work myself with -- in Africa and as well as in the Middle East, and there's so much potential in both countries. They just need stability, and that's one thing that President Trump has done is by bringing, you know, some conclusion to the war in the Middle East, but also more focus on Africa and the opportunities that are there. BROWN: Right.

STUTZMAN: Those are countries that want to do business with America. So, I think that, you know, there's good opportunities here that we need to make sure this doesn't become a distraction.

BROWN: Right. But the bottom line is this is the second time in as many weeks where there is this type of language allegedly being used in GOP circles. Does that concern you as a Republican?

STUTZMAN: Well, I mean, I don't condone that sort of language at all, whether it's Republican or Democratic, but we've seen it, unfortunately, on -- I mean, if this is real on both sides --

BROWN: How pervasive is it, you think?

STUTZMAN: I don't think it's pervasive at all.

BROWN: In the Republican --

STUTZMAN: I don't think it's that pervasive at all. I mean, I'm -- you know, I've been a long-life Republican and that's just not something that I was ever taught to be allowed. I mean, we're all human beings and we need to respect one another with kindness and with understanding. And so, as a Republican, if another Republican would speak that way, it's not something I would ever condone and I believe that the White House will manage this and handle this appropriately.

BROWN: All right. Let me talk to you about the government shutdown because we're now really starting to feel those real-world effects. You know, you have the consequences of the staffing shortages at multiple air traffic control facilities reporting that controllers are -- you know, they're working without pay. A Treasury official estimates the shutdown could cost the U.S. economy as much as $15 billion a week in lost output. What concrete steps is your party taking right now to put an end to the second longest running shutdown in U.S. history?

STUTZMAN: Yes. You know, Pamela, we've done our part in the House of Representatives. You know, Republicans have passed a CR, something that has been done numerous times in the past. Senator Schumer has voted for CRs in the past. You know, to me, what this reminds me of, you know, I come from Indiana and we love basketball and when one team's got a lot of momentum, what do you do? You call a timeout. I think that's what Democrats are doing right now is calling a timeout because they're seeing such momentum on the Republican side.

You know, President Trump came in, won, you know, all of the swing states in the election. He won the popular vote. We've cut taxes. We've cut spending. We're securing the border. We're securing our cities. And, you know, the economy is growing. And so, I think those are all things that the Democrats see and basically call the timeout. I think this is also related to the Virginia election where they need to win the election in Virginia here in the next couple of weeks to gain some sort of momentum back. But, you know, we've done our job. This is something that Senator Schumer could do today is, you know, allow three Democrat senators to vote yes on the cloture vote and then they could proceed to passing a CR and we can continue negotiations.

BROWN: You talk about the momentum on the Republican side but our polls show and it's been consistent that Americans primarily are putting the blame on Republicans. As you know, Republicans have full control, right, of the House, the Senate, and the White House. And on the policy debate issue here, Democrats are saying look, they want an extension of the Affordable Care Act subsidies that expire at the end of the year. Even if you disagree with the shutdown being used to leverage this issue in particular, are you comfortable with health care premiums possibly doubling for your constituents?

STUTZMAN: Well, first of all, I was, you know, in Congress in 2013 when there was another shutdown with President Obama. And I'll tell you, I think the president always wins in a shutdown situation because it looks to the American people like Congress can't get along and can't come up to an agreement. So, I think the president wins under a shutdown scenario.

As far as subsidies go, I'll tell you, Pamela, I have heard some horrific stories lately of what insurance companies are paying for that gives me no sympathy for these insurance companies who are for- profit entities and they're being subsidized by the American taxpayer and the government. And so, I think there has to be a much broader conversation about what is covered, what insurance companies are paying for. And then, also, the profits that are being made not just by insurance companies but health care providers as well. So, I don't think subsidies is the fix to the problem.

[10:40:00]

BROWN: Right. But time is running out and there's an estimate that millions of Americans could lose their insurance if something isn't done about these premiums, right? So, there's that issue -- go ahead.

STUTZMAN: I think that's more -- I think that's just a Democrat talking point to promote fear and to push people. There's going to be changes.

BROWN: No. I just --

STUTZMAN: But I'll tell you --

BROWN: I'll cite the source. I'll cite the source. It's the Think Tank, the Urban Institute. Right. I just want to cite the source so our viewers know. It's the Think Tank, the Urban Institute. It estimated that about 4 million Americans would become uninsured after 2025 without the federal subsidies, and that includes 88,000 people from your state of Indiana. You also have Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greene sounding the alarm about this.

STUTZMAN: Yes. I mean, but Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't speak for, you know, most Republicans in the conference. I mean, again, Speaker Johnson and Senator Thune and President Trump are going to be the leaders on this not Marjorie. And so, I think that what we need to remember is that Obamacare has been a failure over the past decade and that's why our costs -- I mean, right now, Pamela, our insurance and our healthcare industry, it's a wreck. I mean, I come from a business background. You know, we provide health insurance for employees and the cost continues to go up every year and then the deductible goes higher every year for employees.

And so, oftentimes we hear from -- you know, people who are like, do we even have insurance? And, you know, they can't go to the doctor that they used to go to. The entire healthcare system has been -- is now in shambles because of the system that's been created over the past years under Obamacare.

BROWN: And look, a lot of Republicans are in your boat. You don't like Obamacare. You think it's bad, but the bottom line is this is a situation the country's in that if something isn't done about these subsidies, then everything's going to go up. And so far, I haven't heard a concrete plan from Republicans on what to do before those premiums go up to a point where people won't be able to afford any healthcare at all. So, what is the Republican plan?

SCIUTTO: Well, there's plenty of money going into healthcare. We all know that. I mean, Medicare is the largest spending program for the federal government. Medicare is one of the larger spending programs for state governments. In fact, just for example, California takes about $160 billion a year from the federal government for Medicaid and that's larger than the entire budget for the State of Florida.

So, states like New York, California, Illinois, they are taking advantage of these programs and taking advantage of taxpayers in Indiana. I don't believe subsidies are the long-term solution. Again, we need reform on the healthcare provider side. We need reform with insurance companies. These companies are the ones that -- there's too many hands in the cookie jar. We need to get back to basic healthcare where it's a relationship between a doctor and the patient. We were promised that under Obamacare and that has not happened.

BROWN: All right. Congressman Marlin Stutzman, thank you so much for your time. We'll be right back.

STUTZMAN: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:45:00]

BLITZER: Happening now, the vice president of the United States, J.D. Vance, is now in Israel meeting there with White House Envoy -- special -- Steven Witkoff, and President Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner. They're trying to hold together the Gaza ceasefire agreement worked out between Israel and Hamas with President Trump's leadership. Both sides exchanged attacks over the weekend that killed two Israeli soldiers and at least 44 Palestinians. The New York Times is now reporting that the Trump administration is deeply concerned Israel may walk away from the deal. With me here in the Situation Room is CNN Global Affairs Analyst Brett McGurk. He's the former Middle East and North Africa coordinator at the National Security Council. Brett, thanks very much for coming in. So, what message do you think President Trump is sending by sending J.D. Vance, the vice president, to Israel now with Kushner and Witkoff?

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST AND FORMER MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA COORDINATOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: I think it's good they're there. It's a lot of horsepower. Vice president, Steve Witkoff, and Jared Kushner.

Right now, this is a ceasefire deal. It's not a peace deal. Because you have -- you basically have Gaza divided in half. There's something that's called the Yellow Line, which you'll hear if you follow this closely, which Israel basically controls more than half of Gaza and Hamas is in the rest. Hamas is clearly reclaiming power in those areas, reclaiming power over the population. They are releasing the remains of hostages, which is part of the deal, Wolf. Kind of just in onesies and twosies. I think two more will come out today, but there will still be 13 left. And that is part of the deal.

Look, bottom line, this deal says Hamas has to disarm. And so, far, Hamas is giving no indication at all that it's actually prepared to give up control.

BLITZER: The deal does say Hamas has to disarm.

MCGURK: Yes, and Hamas so far is giving no indication it's prepared to do that. And this is a concern because if you want any hope here, Hamas ultimately has to get out of power in Gaza. There's just no way to have a peace process, to have reconstruction of Gaza if Hamas is claiming that control of the population.

And what's very important is to get that international security force, which is also part of this deal, into those areas that Israel currently controls. Because if all you have is Hamas on one sideline, Israel on the other sideline, you're going to constantly be in a pressure cooker. And incidents like just happened on Sunday, Wolf, where Hamas militants came out of a tunnel and killed two Israeli soldiers. That obviously risks reigniting this entire war, which nobody wants.

BLITZER: You know, you say that they need this international security coalition to come together and deal with this. So, far, I don't see that coalition putting together troops that would protect Gaza.

[10:50:00]

MCGURK: Tell you, Wolf, I've built coalitions before. It is extremely hard work. Every capital, before they deploy their military forces, they have their own laws, their own regulations, their own political requirements. You have to come up with rules of engagement, command structures, intelligence apparatus, it's really hard work. It's been reported the Indonesians, Azerbaijan has offered troops. But you've got to work out those rules of engagement. That's hard work. I know Admiral Brad Cooper, the head of CENTCOM. I know him quite well. I know he's engaged in this. But you've got to get that international security force into at least those areas where Israel is now, where it's calm, and set up conditions for the population, which is in the areas Hamas controls, to begin to move into safer areas, to break that control that Hamas has over the Palestinian population in Gaza. So, long as Hamas is controlling with force, it's hard to see how you get to the next phase of this ceasefire deal.

BLITZER: So, are you concerned that this ceasefire agreement could collapse?

MCGURK: I think it's going to be a very difficult road ahead, I think. But you have to stay on it. That's why it's very good the vice president's there. It's good Steve and Jared are obviously engaged. You've got to build a team to do this. Look, this is going to take a lot of time. It's the Middle East. Everything is hard. There's never any linear path forward. You'll have setbacks.

But, you know, we're keeping pressure on Hamas. President Trump's keeping pressure on Hamas. Qatar, Turkey have to keep pressure on Hamas. The remains have to be returned to Israel, including their two American Israelis, Omer Neutra and Itay Chen. I know you've met families a number of times, as have I. They have to be returned to their loved ones. Those remains is part of the deal. But you've got to stay on it, Wolf.

Look, stopping the war was the first objective, and getting that ceasefire in place and all the living hostages out, it is an incredible, incredible achievement. But you've really got to keep the pressure on to move to this second phase.

BLITZER: And you got to really have the cooperation, the strength of Qatar, Egypt and Turkey, key players in putting this deal together, to work and squeeze Hamas into accepting these terms.

MCGURK: 100 percent.

BLITZER: Are they doing it?

MCGURK: Well, I think there's more pressure on Hamas now than there has ever been. Hamas never would have accepted this deal at any point until now. Releasing all living hostages while Israeli forces remain in half of Gaza, it would have been completely unthinkable even six months ago. Achievement to get there, but you've got to keep pressure on Hamas. Qatar, Egypt, Turkey, all those countries. Hamas has to pull in the background and disarm and get that international security force in.

BLITZER: Just a little while ago, President Trump posted this on social media. Let me put it up on the screen and read it to our viewers. Numerous of our now great allies in the Middle East and areas surrounding the Middle East have explicitly and strongly, with great enthusiasm, informed me that they would welcome the opportunity, at my request, to go into Gaza with a heavy force and strengthen -- straighten out Hamas if Hamas continues to act badly. So, what do you think?

MCGURK: I think that's the right way to talk to Hamas. There can be no equivocation. There's a deal. You've got to follow through on it. As I said, I don't think that military coalition is really formed yet, let alone a coalition ready to go in and fight Hamas. It's hard to envision Arab forces going in and taking on Hamas in an armed confrontation.

I can envision though security forces going -- international security forces going in to those areas where the Israelis are now to set the conditions, allow the Israelis to pull back more and allow people to come into those safer areas. We did that in the ISIS campaign. Well, if you might remember those, major battles in Mosul and Raqqa, you set up safe areas for people to get out of the grip of ISIS, move into safer areas. That's what you have to do now in Gaza. But this is going to be really hard work.

BLITZER: Yes.

MCGURK: I think we'll be talking about it for some time.

BLITZER: I suspect you're right, sadly. When I was in Israel the other day, people were very optimistic that things were finally moving in the right direction. But now there's huge, huge concern right now. All right.

MCGURK: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks very much. Brett McGurk, helping us. Pamela.

BROWN: Coming up here in the Situation Room, Wolf, making way for President Trump's new ballroom. Just ahead, we have new CNN reporting on the ask from the Treasury Department when it comes to photos of the East Wing's demolition.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:55:00]

BROWN: Blue Jays fans are flying high this morning. Toronto rallied late to beat the Seattle Mariners and will now face the Los Angeles Dodgers in the World Series.

BLITZER: CNN Sports Anchor Coy Wire is joining us right now. Coy, it's been a few decades since the Blue Jays have made it to a World Series. Update our viewers.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes. After a spectacular seven-game come-from-behind series-sealing showdown against the Mariners, Toronto has taken the World Series north of the border. It all spun in spectacular fashion in the seventh when George Springer put the Blue Jays ahead with his 23rd career postseason homer. Tied for third most all time. A stunning three-run smash, giving Toronto a 4-3 lead, which they would not lose. The long wait for Toronto fans comes to an end. ALCS chants flying to the fall classic for the first time since 1993. And look at this celebration. Is this a locker room or is this a Vegas nightclub? They will face the Dodgers next. Here is George Springer on what he will remember most about the moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE SPRINGER, TORONTO BLUE JAYS: They have bats before me. I mean, if it's not for those guys, that moment doesn't happen. Just I'm so happy for our team, our fans, our city, our country. I'm so happy right now.

VLADIMIR GUERRERO JR., NAMED ALCS MVP: This means a lot, you know. We're working so hard for this and thank the fans who bring the energy. The joy is not finished. We got four more to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WIRE: All right. From diamond drama to the gridiron, the Lions mauled and mystified the Bucs Monday night. Despite not having any of their opening day starters in their secondary, the defense held MVP candidate Baker Mayfield and the Bucs to --

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