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The Situation Room

VA Job Cuts; Interview With Rep. Mike Lawler (R-NY); Trump Administration Investigates Brown University. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired December 23, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, new this morning, the Education Department said it would review whether Brown University followed the law after the recent mass shooting.

Federal law requires universities to meet certain campus safety and security-related requirements in order to get student aid. And we're also learning that Brown put its police chief on administrative leave as it reviews the attack.

Two students were killed and nine others were hurt in the shooting. Authorities found the suspect days later after a massive manhunt. They say he died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

Let's go live now to CNN correspondent Danny Freeman.

Danny, what more do we know about this review by the Education Department?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure thing, Pamela.

Yes, a lot of things happening early on this holiday week when it comes to this Brown University story. First, when it comes to that review, basically, late yesterday, we learned that the Department of Education was opening up this formal review and investigation into Brown University specifically related to security measures when it comes to the shooting that took place last week.

[11:35:14]

The doe cited the Clery Act, which basically, as you started to describe, Pamela, means that higher education institutions have to maintain certain standards when it comes to safety and security and also data sharing. And federal funding essentially is tied to meeting those conditions.

Now, we know, Pamela, because we have been covering the story, that Brown has faced a lot of criticism, not just from the Brown community, not just from Providence, but also from the president and the White House, over perceived lack of security that was satisfactory.

And we saw that specifically related to a lack of cameras in that building where this horrific shooting took place. Now, Brown has until the end of January to essentially comply with a list of data requirements that the DOE is asking for.

And I will note that our affiliate WJAR has reported that a retired former federal prosecutor has now been retained by Brown as they continue with this process. But then the second thing, Pamela, that I want to discuss, which you mentioned as well, is then we got this news just a few hours later last night that the head of Brown's safety and emergency management, Rodney Chatman, was placed on leave.

And basically an interim head of their safety apparatus will be in place. And that's going to be a former Providence police chief. Now, Brown's president, Christina Paxson, said that this is all part of a thorough after-action review.

And she said in part that: "The concerns our community has about safety and security are real and I share them."

So there is acknowledgement that Brown, from the words of the president, needs to do better when it comes to making sure people on that campus feel safe. They have promised that they're going to implement enhanced security techniques going forward, but, again, this investigation and this review by the Department of Education surely going to put more pressure on the school as we move forward into the new year, Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Danny Freeman, thank you so much.

Just ahead here in THE SITUATION ROOM: Next week, millions of Americans will either lose their Obamacare insurance or see their prices skyrocket, and Congress is on vacation right now.

Next, we're talking with one of four House Republicans who joined Democrats to force a vote on the issue.

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[11:41:29]

BROWN: Our top story this hour is the latest released by the Justice Department of files related to its investigation into Jeffrey Epstein.

A law signed by President Trump required all documents be made public in a searchable online database by midnight last Friday. But, so far, only a small portion of the paperwork has made it online and much of it has been redacted, to the point where it contains no information.

Joining me now is Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York.

Hi, Congressman.

So you supported the bill requiring these releases. How do you feel about how things have gone so far? REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, I think, obviously, the Justice

Department should be doing everything it can to comply with the law.

I think, realistically, 30 days was probably insufficient, given the voluminous records that we're talking about, inclusive of the grand jury files and transcripts that a court ordered released after the passage of the bill.

So I think, when you're talking about victims, this is an unprecedented situation, where Congress has ordered the release of all records pertaining to a criminal investigation. And we want to make sure that victims are not exposed in this situation and, obviously, that the Department of Justice is thorough in its review of the documents before posting.

I think just throwing everything up would have unintended consequences. So, obviously, we want them to comply. We want them to get all of the records up expeditiously. But I think we also have to be realistic about the fact that 30 days was probably insufficient in the law as it was written by Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna.

BROWN: Because there have been examples where DOJ has posted something and then taken it down, then reposted. Or there was a Jane Doe who spoke to CNN. It's a survivor who did not want her name out there. And she apparently reached out several times to have her name removed. And at last check, it hadn't as of this morning.

So are you satisfied with...

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LAWLER: And I think -- yes.

BROWN: Go ahead.

LAWLER: To that point, I think everybody needs to be realistic here and put the politics aside. This is an unprecedented situation that Congress has ordered the release of Department of Justice files in this manner.

And so I think I would -- I, for one, would much rather make sure this is done correctly and that victims are not exposed, whether it be photos, whether it be names, whether it be details that they don't want out there. To me, this is about protecting victims and holding those who participated in Jeffrey Epstein's crimes accountable.

Any -- as I have said repeatedly, anybody who was involved in furtherance of the sexual exploitation of minor children and women should be prosecuted, whether they be government officials, whether they be those in the financial services industry, whether they be celebrities.

I don't care who it is. If they were involved in furtherance of these crimes, they should be prosecuted. But we need to make sure that the victims are protected. And that's why, while I appreciate what this law does, and I voted in favor of it when it came to the floor, I think we need to be very careful about just throwing everything out there without a thorough review by the Department of Justice.

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BROWN: All right, I want to ask you about something else that is very important to a lot of Americans.

Congress left Washington for the year without voting on a bill that would extend Obamacare subsidies for three years. You were one of four Republicans who broke with your party to support the bill. What made you join in? And when do you think the vote will happen?

I imagine, being there in your district, you're hearing a lot from your constituents.

LAWLER: Yes.

Well, the vote will happen on January 6, when we come back from the Christmas recess. And I suspect it'll pass with a decent margin, including many Republicans voting for it, to send it to the Senate.

The Senate has already voted on this clean three-year extension, and they voted it down. They did not get the requisite number of 60 votes to end debate and move it forward. And so it is going to be likely that what we will get is a compromise bill, which is what I have been pushing for weeks, a bipartisan bill that has reforms in place, a two- year extension with income limits, insurance reforms, ending zero premium plans, PBM reform and HSA expansion.

Those are things that I think we can get consensus on and get into a final bill in January. And that is my objective. Health care premiums have skyrocketed across the country, not just because of the enhanced premium tax credit, but because Obamacare doesn't work.

It was written by the insurance companies for the insurance companies. They have seen 2000 percent profit increases, while Americans' health care premiums have skyrocketed by 96 percent over these 15 years. So we have to address the problems in the system, and there's a lot more issues to deal with beyond the enhanced premium tax credit, which affects about 7 percent of the population.

We need to focus on reducing health care costs for 100 percent of the population.

BROWN: And we have been hearing that from Republicans for so many years, right? I mean, they have been critical, as you are, of Obamacare, but the question is, where is that specific plan, that specific health care plan?

And if this does pass after you guys get back, Congress gets back, by then, the subsidies would have expired. And so there's a real question as to, what do you do, because there's going to be a lot of chaos and confusion, right? Is there any concern on that front from your part?

LAWLER: Well, of course. And that's why the legislation that I have supported extends the open enrollment period, and we would have to clean that up as part of any compromise legislation. But it speaks to the bigger problem here, which is that this system

has to be fixed. We passed last week a Republican bill that would start to chip away at some of the problems, passing associated health plans, for instance, which allows small businesses and the self- employed to pool together and actually purchase insurance at a lower rate.

CBO scored it and said that it would reduce premiums by 11 percent nationwide. That is a positive step forward, and yet every Democrat voted against that bill. It requires us working collectively and collaboratively. It's not good enough to just say, this sucks or I don't like that. We actually have to find solutions here.

To me, one of the things we need to evaluate is the insurance companies. How is it that UnitedHealthcare, the largest insurance company in America, owns providers? They own Optum Health, one of the largest providers in the country. That is a clear conflict of interest and that needs to be broken up, as does Aetna with respect to CVS Caremark and the PBMs.

Insurance companies should not be owning providers or PBMs, period.

BROWN: All right.

LAWLER: That is something that needs to be addressed and will help reduce costs.

BROWN: I want to go back, because we're sifting through all of these documents that were released from DOJ and the Epstein files.

And I want to go back and ask you about something that did come out in this release that we found recently. And it's this jailhouse letter that was sent from a J. Epstein to Larry Nassar. And the letter appears to include a reference to President Trump.

It says: "Dear L.N." -- of course, Larry Nassar was a convicted pedophile as well -- "as you know by now, I have taken the short route home. Good luck. We shared one thing, our love and caring for young ladies in the hope they reach their full potential. Our president also shares our love of young nubile girls. When a young beauty walked by, he loved to grab snatch, whereas we ended up snatching grub in the mess halls of the system. Life is unfair."

Of course, we are missing a lot of context around this. And Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide. But I have to ask you what you make of that.

LAWLER: Well, first of all, like everything affiliated with Jeffrey Epstein, it's vile. It's disgusting.

I'm not going to speculate as to what that even means or what he is trying to allege there. Obviously, as I have said, if anybody was involved in furtherance of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes, they should be prosecuted.

[11:50:15] But I'm not going to sit here and speculate as to what any of these files mean, what Jeffrey Epstein's words mean. Bottom line is, the president has not been accused of any wrongdoing by any of these women that have been involved in the Jeffrey Epstein case. And so I think it would be dangerous, frankly, for people to just start speculating about it.

BROWN: All right, Congressman Mike Lawler, thank you so much. Happy holidays to you.

We will be right back.

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BROWN: New reporting into THE SITUATION ROOM.

With tens of thousands of unfilled positions set to be eliminated, some VA staff say they are fed up. Sources who spoke to CNN said the cuts have raised alarms within the agency, as employees are already facing low morale and staffing shortages. And leadership says it was only given days to decide which jobs to remove.

CNN correspondent Brian Todd is here with more details.

Brian, you have done a lot of reporting on the VA? What is the latest on these job cuts?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, this is part of the VA's continuing efforts to streamline its staff. But as it does so, as it goes along in this process, morale just keeps dropping at the agency.

Here's what we can tell you, according to three sources familiar with the decisions, including two people who are in management positions at VA facilities. VA leadership at their facilities informed them just before Thanksgiving of plans to eliminate thousands of unfilled open positions.

[11:55:03]

Now, according to our sources, the positions being eliminated include primary care doctors and nurses, mental health care providers and social workers. The sources say that, so far, there are no plans, these plans do not call -- this is an important caveat, of course -- these plans do not call for people currently occupying VA jobs to be laid off.

And that's an important part of this. Now, according to VA Press Secretary Peter Kasperowicz -- he sent an e-mail to CNN about this when we inquired about it. He said -- quote -- "VA is simply eliminating about 25,000 open and unfilled positions, mostly COVID era roles that are no longer necessary."

He said -- quote -- "All of these positions are unfilled and most have not been filled for more than a year, underscoring how they are no longer needed." And he added that all of this would have -- quote -- "zero impact on veteran care." But according to one of our sources, this is a VA official in management in the mental health care field, she said -- quote -- "We were already short on mental health care providers." And this is what this person is warning that this could lead to, longer wait times for veterans seeking mental health care, possibly not having enough mental health care providers or having less experienced providers available to see patients since many experienced mental health care providers have left the VA in recent months.

And all of this, according to all of our sources, is just kind of leading to this decrease in morale, Pamela, as morale has already been kind of dropping at the VA all year long. One of our sources said -- quote -- this all leads to -- quote -- "exhaustion and hopelessness among the VA staff. It's just the constant of it," this person says. "You can't catch a break."

They just keep -- and, again, these are unfilled jobs, but this is an agency that has already vastly short-staffed for many important positions, primary care docs, nurses, mental health care providers.

BROWN: Yes.

TODD: If they're not hiring people to fill those jobs, they're in a bit of a bind, according to the people we talk to who know about this on the ground.

BROWN: All right, well, Brian Todd, thanks for bringing that reporting to us. We appreciate it.

And thank you all for joining us this morning. You can keep up with us on social media @WolfBlitzer and @PamelaBrownCNN.

"INSIDE POLITICS" with our friend and colleague Manu Raju starts after this.