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The Situation Room

Mississippi Man Charged in Synagogue Fire; Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson. Aired 11:30a- 12p ET

Aired January 15, 2026 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

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[11:32:46]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Breaking news, the president is threatening to invoke the Insurrection Act and send in U.S. military troops as federal agents and protesters clash in Minneapolis.

Overnight, the Department of Homeland Security said federal agents were conducting what they described as a targeted traffic stop when a Venezuelan national was shot in the leg after he began to resist arrest and -- quote -- "violently assault" one of its officers, this as the city reels in the aftermath of the fatal shooting of Renee Good by an ICE agent just last week.

Joining us now to discuss what's going on is Jeh Johnson. He served as homeland security secretary under President Obama.

Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us.

JEH JOHNSON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Thanks for having me.

BLITZER: How concerned, first of all, are you, about the situation on the ground in Minnesota right now? And would invoking the Insurrection Act help or worsen the situation?

JOHNSON: Well, first, I am concerned.

The images that we see on national TV on CNN and elsewhere don't always accurately depict what's going on across an entire city, but what I do see suggests that it's a very combustible situation. There's a lot of tension on both sides, frankly, among the civilian population and in law enforcement.

Wolf, a common thread through all these horrible incidents, whether you're talking about Renee Good or George Floyd or anybody else, is tensions tend to escalate. George Floyd was about a counterfeit $20 bill that escalated into the use of lethal force by a police officer.

And so, in law enforcement, there really has to be training on how to de-escalate from a tense situation, everybody calm down, take a deep breath, so that nothing terrible happens, as did last week with the tragic death of Renee Good.

In terms of the Insurrection Act, Wolf, in general, the law prohibits what we refer to as a Posse Comitatus, use of the U.S. military for domestic law enforcement in the streets and cities of the United States, unless specifically authorized by Congress.

[11:35:13]

The Insurrection Act is one of those exceptions. As I think was noted earlier on this program, it was first enacted by Congress in 1792. And it uses very broad, antiquated language. It authorizes the president to send in and federalize the National Guard to prevent unlawful combinations, obstructions, and assemblages.

Those are very broad, antiquated terms. And so I suspect that the president is being advised that he could invoke the Insurrection Act if he chose to do so because this language is very broad. Hopefully, he does not do that and this situation in Minneapolis is allowed to decompress and de-escalate.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I just want to jump in here. Mr. Secretary, and play a bit of a ride-along I did with ICE. This was back in 2016. And, actually, Tom Homan, the now border czar for the Trump administration, was there with me on this ride-along.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BROWN: Let's watch some of this piece and then talk on the other side of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: There's a lot of risks when we're having to do this out in the street like this. You always have risk to ourselves, the officers, risk to the innocent bystanders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go on.

BROWN: The team finds its third target, working at this auto shop on the North Side of Chicago, a twice-deported felon with two DUI convictions, according to ICE.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got any weapons on you?

BROWN: Then agents realize his brother is also there.

So why are you checking the brother?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Based on preliminary, because he looks like he's also illegal. So we're just going to verify with some of the new technology.

BROWN: They use a new mobile fingerprint scanner on the brother to see if he's ever been stopped by immigration officials before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's a hit.

BROWN: And just then, an agent takes off as a third person runs out the back door. They catch him seconds later.

So if there's a hit with the biometric testing, he will be brought into the processing center to see if there's a criminal history?

SHAWN BYERS, U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Yes, we will go. We will bring him in and go from there.

BROWN: As the man's frightened wife watches, he admits he is in the U.S. illegally, but a quick check shows he has never had any interactions with federal immigration officials before, so ICE lets him go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good luck to you, man.

BROWN: Relieved, the man explains why he ran.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was afraid.

BROWN: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. That's just how it is. I mean, sometimes, they just take you and they don't care whatever they do. But this time, I mean, I guess I'm not one of those.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So this was under President Obama with a different immigration policy, but it was also, though, when Donald Trump is running for president and making sanctuary cities a big part of his campaign message.

And I interviewed you for part of that story, this operation in a sanctuary city. And I wonder what you make of the way ICE is conducting its operations now and how it compares to then to the department you ran.

JOHNSON: Yes, I remember that interview in 2016. I remember when you went out with ICE ERO.

It reminds me that, when I was secretary of DHS, I used to tell ICE enforcement and removal operations leadership, including Tom Homan, who worked for me then, that when you're out on the streets engaging in law enforcement enforcing our immigration laws, use your common sense.

One horrific incident like a shooting, like a death can derail your mission in an entire community and make ICE toxic in an entire community. And I'm afraid that's what's happening right now in Minneapolis. Working with local law enforcement is fundamental to the immigration enforcement mission.

Going after the worst of the worst in jails, placing detainers on them is fundamental for public safety. If the local leadership, the local political leadership, the city councils, refuse to work with ICE, that mission is undermined.

And so I used to urge enforcement and removal operations personnel, use your common sense when you're out there. Be careful and use your common sense. And it doesn't appear to be happening right now.

BLITZER: The current secretary of homeland security, Kristi Noem, spoke to reporters at the White House just last hour and was asked whether U.S. citizens need to carry proof of citizenship. Listen and watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: In every situation, we're doing targeted enforcement. If we are on a target and doing an operation, there may be individuals surrounding that criminal that we may be asking who they are and why they're there and having them validate their identity. That's what we have always done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So, Mr. Secretary, what's your reaction to that? And is that common practice for ICE officials to ask someone to validate their identity?

[11:40:03]

JOHNSON: In general, no.

I can envision a situation, an exception to the general rule, where that is sought. I'm not familiar with the circumstances that the secretary is referring to. But, in general, no. On the streets, law enforcement does not ask someone to produce proof of citizenship or identification unless there's some sort of arrest situation or some other exigent situation, I suppose.

BLITZER: These ICE agents we see in the video, Mr. Secretary, in the video that's coming in from Minneapolis, they are federal law enforcement officers, as you well know. They aren't local police officers.

Why are they interacting with protesters? And is that even normal?

JOHNSON: Well, again, this is appearing to me to be a very combustible situation. Logs are being tossed on a burning fire. And that's in no one's interest, whether it's the local citizens, whether it's local political leadership, local law enforcement, or federal law enforcement.

It's no -- in no one's interest to have these types of overheated confrontations on the street. ICE needs to do its job. Local law enforcement needs to do its job. But, again, in these kinds of combustible situations, law enforcement, those who are armed need to use their common sense so that a bad overheated situation doesn't get worse and a lot of people get hurt.

BLITZER: During your time leading homeland security, Mr. Secretary, how rare or common was it for federal officers to actually discharge their weapons? In what situations is that appropriate?

JOHNSON: It's very rare.

You can have a law enforcement officer who goes through an entire 20- year career and never discharge a weapon in a hostile situation except in training. And so it's very rare. But, again, fundamental to training to be a law enforcement agent, whether you're ICE ERO or New York City Police Department, are tactics in de-escalation, so that it never reaches a point where a law enforcement officer has to use his weapon or even draw his weapon.

BLITZER: CNN crews have documented several violent interactions between federal agents and individuals in Minnesota in recent days. I'm curious what your reaction has been to some of those videos and if that use of force is appropriate from your perspective.

JOHNSON: Well, again, talking about -- referring to last week, I have watched that video dozens of times now, and it doesn't take an expert, doesn't take a law enforcement expert to see that what Renee Good was attempting to do, she panicked and she was trying to flee a situation.

I seriously doubt she was trying to hurt the officer who was standing off to the immediate left. That's what appears to me to be the case. But, again, those with a public voice, whether you're political leadership, whether you're national leadership, whether you're local leadership, need to urge everybody to calm down.

It's a test of political leadership in a situation like this, whether you're trying to amp it up to play to your base or you're urging people across the spectrum to calm down and relax, let law enforcement do their jobs, but also law enforcement needs to respect the First Amendment, peaceful demonstrations.

Everybody, take a deep breath. I'm very worried about this situation in Minneapolis. I'm worried it could get worse before it gets better.

BROWN: Just to follow up with you, you mentioned the First Amendment and the constitutional protections.

And I'm wondering how much training these ICE officers are actually getting when it comes to that, because our reporting is that the administration is sort of trying to recruit as many people as possible as fast as possible, and so they're not getting vetted in the way that perhaps they should be, according to CNN sources.

And I'm wondering what concerns you have and what that could lead to in a situation like this that's combustible, where you have protesters there and ICE agents and these heightened tensions.

JOHNSON: Yes.

Well, I have noted watching the images, watching the videos, that it's not just ICE on the streets that Washington is sending. It's also Border Patrol...

BROWN: Yes. JOHNSON: ... HSI Homeland Security Investigations.

[11:45:00]

Border Patrol are trained to work on the border in border communities, not in the interior so much, in large cities in the interior. HSI is a law enforcement agency, not dedicated exclusively to immigration enforcement at all. And we know that Homeland Security is aggressively recruiting more people to this mission.

I just hope that they're adequately trained in how to deal with the civilian population in places where their very presence can be toxic.

BLITZER: The former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson.

Always good, Mr. Secretary, to have you with us in THE SITUATION ROOM.

BROWN: Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

BLITZER: Thanks very, very much.

BROWN: And coming up here in THE SITUATION ROOM: The Mississippi man accused of setting the state's oldest synagogue on fire now faces both state and federal charges.

Up next, we will find out how the congregation is dealing with the aftermath of the attack.

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[11:51:23]

BLITZER: Happening now: The case against the man accused of setting fire to Mississippi's oldest synagogue over the weekend is moving forward.

We have learned that 19-year-old Stephen Spencer Pittman has now been indicted on arson and hate crime charges. Pittman reportedly told the FBI that he attacked this historic synagogue in Jackson because of its Jewish ties, his words, Jewish ties. It is now closed indefinitely.

This is the second time Congregation Beth Israel has been attacked with fire. Back in 1967, the Ku Klux Klan bombed it over the synagogue's support for ending segregation.

Joining us now is Student Rabbi Ben Russell, the spiritual leader of Beth Israel.

Rabbi, thank you so much for joining us.

How are you and members of your congregation holding up?

BEN RUSSELL, STUDENT RABBI AND SPIRITUAL LEADER, CONGREGATION BETH ISRAEL: Thank you so much, Wolf. We are holding each other together. Our community is amazingly

resilient. We have emerged stronger. I have heard from congregants consistently over the course of days asking how they can help. We have heard from people who have moved off just calling and asking and just checking in on us.

And so the congregation itself, although we are shaken, we are also stronger.

BLITZER: That's encouraging to hear that.

Beth Israel, of course, is the only synagogue in Jackson, the largest synagogue in Mississippi. What has the response been like from the community in the midst of this horrible assault?

RUSSELL: Oh, wow, the response has been amazing.

We have received -- I have received personal phone calls from so many clergy around the city from all faiths. Literally every faith in the Jackson community has contacted us and let us know that they support us, they're with us and just wishing us blessings and well-being.

BLITZER: And, as you know, Rabbi, this incident comes amid a wave of increasing antisemitic attacks all across the United States in recent years. Has your community of Jackson experienced other incidents of antisemitism lately?

RUSSELL: You know, Wolf, we have been a part of Mississippi since 1860, and we have experienced all of Mississippi's history, from racism to bigotry to antisemitism and hatred, but we also have experienced an amazing amount of love, an amazing amount of support.

This community, this city has come together in such a way that is such a blessing to see. We have experienced so much, and we're just so honored and proud to be a part of the state's heritage.

BLITZER: It's so encouraging to hear that. As I mentioned, Rabbi, it was, what, nearly some 60 years ago that your synagogue was bombed by the Ku Klux Klan.

Did you and your congregation ever think you would have to go through something like that again?

RUSSELL: No. You always know that it's possible, but there's the part of us that denies that something like this will ever happen again.

And so to have it happen again and to have it happen in the exact same spot that the bombing took place is -- has been really a shock and a blow. But, at the same time, as I have said, the real outpour of community support has actually shown us how welcome and how loved we are in this community.

And the building is itself just a building. We are the people of Beth Israel. Wherever we are, we are together, and our congregation will be strong no matter where we meet. BLITZER: So, Rabbi, where do you and the congregation go from here? I

assume you're going to rebuild. Are your members thinking, though, about leaving Jackson? Are they scared?

RUSSELL: We have not heard from anyone that they are -- have any plans for leaving or anything. We are so fortunate and so blessed to have the faith community offer us spaces.

So, we're in the process of working out calendars right at the moment so that we have places to meet. We have an overabundance actually of people offering support. And what I have seen more than anything is that our congregants are very resilient and very defiant. We realize that this is the act of one individual.

This is not the act of all of or a larger group of people within Jackson itself. And so we have every plan to build back stronger, better, and to remain to be a central part of this community.

[11:55:03]

BLITZER: Rabbi Ben Russell, good luck to you. Good luck to all your congregants. We appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.

RUSSELL: Thank you so much, Wolf.

BROWN: Great interview, Wolf.

Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

"INSIDE POLITICS" with our friend and colleague Dana Bash starts after this.