Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Biden To Supporters: "I Am Running, And We're Going To Win"; Axios Obtains Audio Of Biden Campaign Call; Judge Allows Creditors To Pursue Rudy Giuliani's Assets: NYC & FL Homes, Sports Car, Luxury Watches, Yankees Rings. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 12, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: You know, Anderson. I love looking at numbers. I love looking at polling.
I have never seen anybody have a 60-point drop in their favorable rating over just 20 years. In fact, Richard Nixon's approval rating, after, of course, he resigned the presidency was north of 20 percent. So, Rudy Giuliani is liked by fewer Americans now, than Richard Nixon was when he was forced to resign the presidency back in 1974. Quite a fall from grace. It's quite honestly sad.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Harry Enten, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
ENTEN: Thank you.
COOPER: The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
With his campaign in limbo, President Biden insists he is the nominee as he is taking this fight directly to the voters. We have exclusive new audio, from inside his campaign meeting that included a few F- bombs dropped along the way.
Meanwhile, 72 hours out from the Republican National Convention, Donald Trump is yet to name his running mate, as he's comparing the vice presidential race to, you guessed it, "The Apprentice."
And Rudy Giuliani's million-dollar homes, luxury watches and Yankees World Series rings are all up for seizure, tonight. When and what the two election workers that he was found guilty, liable for defaming, can start collecting.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
There are new signs of life, tonight, from President Biden's campaign, as he insists he isn't going anywhere, in front of a roaring crowd of supporters, in Detroit, where he made clear over and over and over again that he will be the Democratic nominee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VOTERS CHANT "DON'T YOU QUIT" AT BIDEN RALLY)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't you quit.
(VOTERS CHANT "WE GOT YOUR BACK" AT BIDEN RALLY)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I've got your back.
A lot of speculation lately. What's Joe Biden going to do? Is he going to stay in the race? Is he going to drop out? Here's my answer. I am running, and we're going to win.
I'm the nominee of the Democratic Party, and the only Democrat or Republican who has beaten Donald Trump ever. And I'm going to beat him again.
(VOTERS CHEER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It was one of the most energetic performances that we have seen from Biden, in months, as he trained (ph) this fire on Donald Trump, in extremely blunt terms, trying to turn the focus of this race, back on his former predecessor, on his predecessor, as he also sought to reassure his own party about his ability to beat him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Donald Trump is a loser.
He is convicted by -- he was convicted by a jury of his peers of 34 felonies, for paying hush money to a porn star.
Donald Trump was found liable for sexual assault.
Donald Trump is a business fraud.
He's still facing charges for his role in January 6.
He's still facing charges in Georgia.
He's filed bankruptcy six times.
Trump is a threat to this nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Told you, it was pretty blunt.
Of course, Biden was speaking there on a teleprompter.
And many Democrats will want to see a repeat of that exact performance tonight, in Detroit, over and over again, for the next four months, up until Election Day. For now, at least, for some of them, his nomination is still a question mark. Far fewer were likely watching that speech in Detroit tonight than the 24 million who watched his press conference, last night, in Washington, a number that is roughly half of those, who tuned in for the debate, two weeks ago, in Atlanta.
The concerns in his party were alarming enough that the top Democrat in the House, Hakeem Jeffries, relayed them personally to President Biden, after that press conference, last night, as the number of congressional Democrats, calling for Biden to drop out, has only continued to grow. Right now, that number stands at 19.
One of the most recent being California Democrat, in a vulnerable spot, Mike Levin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE LEVIN (D-CA): But I believe the time has come for President Biden to pass the torch.
It's time to move forward with a new leader together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, a source tells us that Levin confronted Biden directly, with that message, on a call today, with the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. It's the first time that we know of that a member of Congress has actually done so, telling Biden directly what their concerns are, about his chances in November.
We're told by a source that the President responded, and I'm quoting Biden now, "That's why I'm going out and letting people touch me, poke me, ask me questions."
And joining me now is the Junior Senator from Pennsylvania, the Democrat, John Fetterman.
Senator, it's great to have you.
Obviously, you are in the Senate. But the Democratic Leader, over in the House today, Hakeem Jeffries, put out a statement about a meeting that he had with President Biden, last night, where he was relaying the concerns that he's hearing from other Democrats.
SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): Yes.
COLLINS: And it notably left out any endorsement, of President Biden staying in the race. I wonder how you read that.
FETTERMAN: Actually, I don't know if I really see it that way. I think it's like perhaps you can correct me, but I think it's maybe 18 or 19, maybe 20 Democrats out of -- out of the -- in Congress, have now asked Joe Biden to step down.
[21:05:00] So, that means well over 90 percent of Democrats in Congress, right now, is right there with Joe Biden on, at this point. So, I think that's more meaningful to reflect where we are, as a party, on that, at this moment.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, I think we've heard from a bunch, who maybe aren't willing to come out and put their name on a statement yet, calling on him to drop out. Some have certainly expressed that privately.
The Biden campaign came out, and was talking to lawmakers yesterday. And obviously, they spoke to Senate Democrats. And one thing that they have said is there are three states they believe they must win in November. That's Michigan, Wisconsin, and your home state of Pennsylvania.
FETTERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: All three of those have Democrats who are running for Senate seats.
And for Bob Casey in Pennsylvania, what does him -- his campaign look like, for the next four months? I mean, does he just run as far away from the President as possible? Or what's the strategy look like for those vulnerable Democrats?
FETTERMAN: No. No, no, no, no. Bob Casey is just he's been killing it. And that guy from Connecticut. Bob Casey's going to win. And Bob Casey's not going to run away from Joe Biden. In fact, we were just all together in Philadelphia, just last within -- less than a week on that. So that Joe -- Joe Biden, is going to win Pennsylvania and of course, so is Bob Casey.
COLLINS: You think the President will ultimately win Pennsylvania?
FETTERMAN: I do. In fact, I'm around everywhere, and people recognize me. And not one single, not one single person have approached us, as a Democrat, and say, Joe Biden, we got to -- we got to get rid of Joe.
Just the opposite. When I landed from flying back from D.C., last night, people were stopping me in the airport, saying, hey, thank you for standing with the President. It's like, I'm appalled. I just canceled my New York Times subscription, all kinds of things.
And my people and my network, all across Pennsylvania, are saying the same thing. And then, if you look at the -- at the Twitter, of the leader of the Allegheny, Westmoreland County Labor Council, and they stand with Joe Biden.
So, I really want to be clear. On the ground, regular kinds of people in Pennsylvania are excited for Joe Biden. And I witnessed that when I was in Philadelphia, last week.
COLLINS: Yes.
FETTERMAN: And yes, there is there is some kind of a bit of a buddle -- excuse me, a bubble. And Joe Biden is going to be OK in Pennsylvania, but it's going to be close.
COLLINS: Well, I'm glad you bring that up, this sense of this bubble, because that's what I hear from people inside the White House.
You've obviously been one of the most ardent defenders, of President Biden, in these last two weeks since that debate.
But we heard something interesting, tonight, from the United Auto Workers' President Shawn Fain. He's been here on the show. He was telling Democrats, don't put your head in the sand and hide from reality. He said, quote, we tried that in 2016, and it didn't work.
Are you worried that Democrats, who aren't being blunt and acknowledging the President's vulnerabilities, and the challenges, the setbacks obviously that that debate have posed to him, are doing just that, putting their heads in the sand?
FETTERMAN: Well, I showed up at multiple lines, or the UAW, whether it was in Michigan, or whether it was in Ohio, even in Pennsylvania. So, I'm very much in -- I'm very much a part of that. And, of course, their big win on all of that.
And I would rather focus on the vulnerabilities of Donald Trump. He seems to have a pro porn star part of his platform. And then also, he's all about Project 25 -- 2025. And he's a convicted felon. And he's said a lot of crazy kinds of thing. And he seems to have a strange love affair with Putin as well. I think I'm more concerned about those kinds of vulnerabilities as well.
And it's going to be close. And it was close in 2016. And these so- called experts were saying that Clinton was going to win. And that obviously didn't happen. In fact, all the experts never predicted that it was going to be about Trump and Biden. But of course it is, again. So, I'm not really sure if there are any so-called experts right now.
And I want to be clear. Joe Biden can beat Trump. But Joe Biden can't beat Trump, and The New York Times, and this whole apparatus of other people and consultants, and all these people that just keep riding his back, week in and week out.
How many weeks are you going to -- you know, when are you going to just decide, hey, and just deal with it, deal with it. Joe Biden is our guy. And he's going to -- he's going to be the one on the -- on the ballot. And I don't know why you seem to be willing, how many weeks you're going to do the work for Trump.
And I think we just have to all -- this -- this discussion has to be over and realize that Joe Biden is going to be the guy.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: And when you say, you, there, are you talking about your fellow Democrats, who are calling on him to get out of the race?
FETTERMAN: I'm talking about The New York Times. I'm talking a lot of people in the media. I'm talking about other folks that decide to, you know, it's very clear that they don't want Joe Biden to be the nominee. Well, he is, though. And I don't know how many weeks you're going to choose to continue having that conversation.
And imagine if that's what you want to do. But who are you really helping? Is it helping bring Democrats together? Or it seems like you're trying to make Trump stronger?
COLLINS: Well, respectfully, I mean, even the -- it's Democrats, who are calling on the President to get out of the race. And as you said, we looked at the number. We've been counting it as it's grown. And so, that's it.
And the Biden campaign is also testing in polls, head-to-head matchups with Donald Trump and Vice President Harris. I mean, that has all been part of this, is what this has looked like.
Tonight, The New York Times says major Democratic donors told the biggest Biden Super PAC that some of their pledges, worth about $90 million, that they're on pause, as long as Biden is at the top of the ticket.
And so, what does the end of this look like, in the sense of not what the media's saying, but what Democrats are saying, what Democratic donors are saying, and what the allies of the President, who don't have faith in him at the top of the ticket are saying.
FETTERMAN: Well, I would say those donors are bluffing. And if you're willing to withhold any kind of resources, against the President, then you're only -- you're helping Trump on that. Put your name on it. Put your name on it. Anyone can be a tough guy, when you're not willing to put your name attached to that. And I believe that you're bluffing.
COLLINS: And as President Biden said, tonight, in Detroit, he said he is not going anywhere.
Senator John Fetterman, thank you, for joining us, tonight, here on THE SOURCE.
FETTERMAN: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: I am joined now by former New York City Mayor, and former Democratic presidential candidate himself, Bill de Blasio.
It's great to have you, Mayor.
You hear Senator Fetterman there, who has been a vociferous defender of Biden's, and making the case there, against those who are speaking out.
Biden himself is clearly tired of hearing about the debate performance. He made that clear, in Detroit, tonight.
I just want you to listen to part of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I guess, they don't remember that Trump called Nikki Haley, Nancy Pelosi.
No more free passes.
Today we're going to shine a spotlight on Donald Trump.
Donald Trump is a convicted criminal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What do you make of how he did tonight?
BILL DE BLASIO, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I think that's great. I think, I mean, I wish he had said, Donald Trump's a convicted criminal, 20 times in the debate. And so, I think this is exactly the kind of thing that Joe Biden needs to do, to give people that sense of hope and energy again.
Now, look, Senator Fetterman, who's an extraordinary person, and I have great respect for, I would just say, I think he's missing something about the fact that in the Democratic Party, we should have open dialog. I actually think it makes us stronger.
Think about it this way. And I think the 2016 analogy is real. A lot of people in the party thought things were off-kilter towards the end of the 2016 campaign, the obvious example of our candidate not going to Wisconsin, which was such a key state. A lot of people in Wisconsin felt that.
Those voices being heard and not shut down is actually part of what makes a party stronger, and a candidacy stronger. So now, you actually see Joe Biden responding to these voices, and showing us more. And that's what people need to see.
I would be very worried if everyone was feeling something was wrong, but no one had the decency or the concern for our country to say it.
Because ironically, the only way to make this campaign better, whether it's Joe Biden, or if Joe Biden decides to step aside, and it's Kamala Harris, the only way to make the campaign the strongest it can be, is to be open about the things we have to address.
COLLINS: So, you don't seem to share the concerns that we've heard from some, who say, every time you come out and criticize the President's age, it's only helping reinforce those Republican talking points, or what the -- what Donald Trump is saying.
DE BLASIO: I don't buy it. And I'll tell you why. First of all, the polling. And we all can take polling with a grain of salt. But the polling before the debate showed how much people of this country were concerned about his age, Democrats and Republicans.
After the debate, without any of the commentary -- the average American is not reading the New York Times editorial page. It was what they saw in the debate that gave them additional concern. This is real stuff. And I think it is head in the sand if you act like that didn't happen, if you think you could just like un-see it. So, I think, in fact, if you care about victory, it's better to bring this stuff out in the open. Let the dissenting voices dissent, and answer them with action. Meaning, if the President can show us? And I think he's an extraordinary leader, who got a great record. Show us that fire? Show us that consistency? People are going to feel that. In fact, it'd be a great comeback story.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:15:00]
DE BLASIO: But if it doesn't feel that way to people, or if the President himself feels it's not working out, and if he decides to make a different decision, then I guarantee you, all that positive energy will go to Kamala Harris, or whoever it is, and people will not skip a beat, because they understand what's at stake.
COLLINS: But tonight sure didn't look like he's even considering stepping down. I mean, he has not wavered at all since he is -- since the debate has passed.
And so, if you are someone, who wants Biden to stay in this race, and want him to win in November, I mean, does he have to repeat what he did in Detroit, every single day, until then? What does that look? If you're in his shoes, what does that look like?
DE BLASIO: Sure. I'd say two things. First of all, he's a tremendously professional human being.
And even if he is wracked by doubt, and having serious conversations about his options, he has to show the people of this country, and his party, a message of I'm in it, and I'm going to make it happen, because the campaign has to continue.
If he were to start being like, someone who mused out loud about all his problems, that would basically kill the immediate efforts, right now, to stop Donald Trump from becoming president.
But the second thing is you got -- it's so personal, and I've been there in a much smaller way. It's so personal. You are not going to, just a week or two, after a debate, say I've made a final decision. It's a painful, it's a difficult decision. It takes a while.
Look, if he can string together a bunch of good performances, and start to just -- you'll see it. People will feel it. And you'll start to see it in polling, you'll start to see it in the response that everyday voters have.
But if that doesn't happen, if it's uneven, I think he's an objective human being. I think he's a highly intelligent human being. If he sees a mixed bag, he's going to understand he's got a tough decision to make.
COLLINS: Do Democrats have the time for that?
Because, I was talking to Jim Himes, last night, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. He came out with a statement, saying Biden should get out of the -- out of the race after that press conference, last night. Not because of it. He said he was waiting until he was basically done with his NATO duties. He said there was 96 hours left to make a decision here.
DE BLASIO: I don't know where he gets that. And I respect him as well. I don't know where he gets that. And he may have some knowledge, I don't have.
But I'll tell you. We have a convention. And from everything I can tell, that's the decisive moment. It's still a ways off.
And again, I do not expect the President, who has been a successful president, who if he can continue to build and grow his campaign, could be an extremely successful candidate as well. But if he can't, if he comes to a conclusion, he can't, especially, I don't think that's a decision that will happen right away.
But my strong impression is we do have time. We obviously have the Vice President waiting, as well as other candidates. We have a strong bench. And we have a strong campaign apparatus. So, I actually think we do have time.
And it can't be unnatural in the sense that if the President -- if you say the President today, you have to make the decision right this minute? I wouldn't blame him if he said, I'm staying.
COLLINS: Yes, he just listened to thousands of people in Detroit.
DE BLASIO: Right. And it feels great.
COLLINS: Chanting, don't get out.
DE BLASIO: But if he sees evidence, or if he has his own concerns that emerge over the next few weeks, and he starts to think you know what, maybe I shouldn't? He can only make that decision when it feels full and right to him.
COLLINS: Yes. You know what that's like.
Mayor de Blasio, great to have you here tonight.
DE BLASIO: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thanks for joining us.
Speaking of, if President Biden is going to overcome this unprecedented challenge in American history, one big part of this is that it's going to start with support just like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM CLYBURN (D-SC): I am all in. I'm riding with Biden. No matter what direction he goes, no matter what method he takes, I'm with Joe Biden.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: When South Carolina congressman, Jim Clyburn, the so-called Democrat kingmaker, says it's time for Democrats to stop talking about replacing the President, on the ticket, it matters.
That's not just because Biden himself credited Clyburn's endorsement, four years ago, with turning things around, after he suffered major losses in Iowa, New Hampshire and Nevada.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: My buddy, Jim Clyburn, you brought me back.
(AUDIENCE CHEERS)
BIDEN: He's a man of enormous integrity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And enormous consequence.
Now, of course, when we talk about what this looks like. Black voters are not a monolith. We all know that. But put simply, Black voters are at the core, and they do form it, of the modern Democratic Party. Biden is going to need their support, if he's going to hold on to this Democratic nomination, much less the White House.
Now, whether it's been Biden, Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, none of the last three Democratic nominees would have been on the top of the ticket, without a surge of support from Black voters.
And as his campaign has faltered, this constituency is where the President continues to have the most support. Look at the numbers. That support is far from conclusive, right now. And of course, that means Joe Biden will have to dig deeper into history than just 2020.
Perhaps back to the last time that a sitting Democratic President faced real questions, from within his own party, about whether or not he could continue in the Oval Office. It was 1998. The Congressional Black Caucus that rallied around President Bill Clinton, as party leaders were openly talking about cutting him loose, after details of his affair with an intern became public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(AUDIENCE CHEERS & APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): The Congressional Black Caucus must have seemed like an oasis to President Clinton. The welcome was warm. The words of support, strong.
[21:20:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Black community has been a continuing source of support for President Clinton, even through the growing criticism and calls for his resignation. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now tonight, there is a growing list of Congressional Democrats, who are calling for President Biden to step down. We just talked about that. But so far, not a single Black lawmaker has.
Of course, where voters stand, still remains to be seen. We're seeing early polling. But none of it is telling the whole picture.
You saw President Biden, earlier, in Detroit tonight, as we showed you. It's the nation's largest majority Black city.
Back in 1998, this is what Black voters were saying about President Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The support of our President, and I think we should continue on in that regard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The media and the public need to leave Bill Clinton alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, compare that to what we had heard, from some Black voters, what they were saying in places like Georgia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARITA BURDETTE, GEORGIA VOTER: Biden's that guy, that's who I'm riding with.
ALANNA MORRIS, GEORGIA VOTER: Don't rock the boat unless you have a plan to get me back to shore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Then there's what we heard, in another swing state, Pennsylvania.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTON MOORE, PENNSYLVANIA DEMOCRATIC VOTER: He shouldn't drop out. Keep pushing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm riding with Biden.
MOORE: Now, we've been going around, talking to people. They said listen, Joe Biden could be in a wheelchair, I'm still going to vote for Joe Biden.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, the big question, tonight, with just over a month to go, before that Democratic nomination that the Mayor was talking about, is whether or not President Biden is able to grow that sentiment, from a few voices in a South Philly bar, to that convention hall, full of the entire Democratic Party, in Chicago. We'll continue to track that.
Up next here on THE SOURCE. We have exclusive audio, from inside a Biden campaign phone call, on what's ahead, with more than a few expletives woven in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN O'MALLEY DILLON, CHAIR, BIDEN-HARRIS 2024: Boy, is it like crazy (bleep) gossipland-world that we are living in.
They've been bad (bleep) weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And also, just three days away, from the Republican National Convention getting underway, Donald Trump still has not named a VP. Why? We'll tell you ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:26:04]
COLLINS: Tonight, we have for you, exclusive audio, from a Biden campaign meeting, as Alex Thompson of Axios obtained this recording that sheds light on just how the campaign leadership is trying to recover, from the fallout of President Biden's debate performance, with the Chair, Jen O'Malley Dillon, being quite blunt about their plan to rebound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'MALLEY DILLON: They look at Donald Trump, and they see every single thing that they are afraid of and that they don't like about him. While we have had two very, very, very hard weeks, very bad weeks... I will either -- I've told you I'd level with you. They've been bad (bleep) weeks.
Donald Trump's numbers have gone down. In some polls, our numbers have gone up. And it's not because of the debate. A lot of people didn't see the debate. It is because when they hear him talk, when they see things about Project 2025, they are reminded how much they don't like him.
So I am not here to tell you that things are going to be easy, or that the path is that we are headed everywhere and we're just going to be fine. But I am here to tell you that we are basically in the margin of error in all of our battleground states.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Alex Thompson, National Political Correspondent, at Axios, joins me now, who obtained that audio. And Alex, obviously, this is notable because we're hearing Jen O'Malley Dillon, acknowledge the fallout, but also talking about what next.
But when you hear her say, they're within the margin of error, I mean, that means that what they're looking at the numbers, they're not ahead, and beating Donald Trump, in a way that makes them feel comfortable in any way.
ALEX THOMPSON, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, AXIOS: Absolutely. Later in the call, she called it slippage. And essentially, what this call was was they try to convince the campaign staff that there still is a viable path forward, that they may be behind now, but there is a path to victory here.
And part of the reason for that is the debate didn't just make Democrats in Congress concerned, Democratic voters concerned. It made the staff of the campaign, it made the staff of the White House, also incredibly worried.
It varies from person to person. Some people are sort of coming back around, and are loyalists, and are very dug in. Some people feel disillusioned that they feel that they've lost confidence, and so are their leaders. It's sort of like a sports team losing confidence in their coaching staff. And then there are some sort of in the middle.
And what Jen O'Malley Dillon, and the campaign staff have done, especially over the last week. I mean, this is the third all-staff conference call, since just last Wednesday. And they are going to -- my understanding is they are probably going to schedule a bunch more. Obviously, maybe the leaks will change that.
But they're really trying to fix the morale, inside this campaign, and get people refocused, back on the task of beating Donald Trump.
COLLINS: Yes, it's not just some phenomenon, where it's the media, or people on Twitter, talking about this. I mean, this is literally coming from inside the house, inside the White House, inside the campaign.
And there was a part where she talked about this. She referred to it as noise. This was her message to the campaign team.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'MALLEY DILLON: I want to say first and foremost, boy, is it like crazy (bleep) gossipland-world that we are living in. And I really feel like I'm (ph) amazed, though, I guess I shouldn't be amazed by how much the chatter out here is that is not based in reality or real. It is not based on what's actually happening.
And I think that I wanted to start by saying that and addressing that head on because I think it's so easy, especially for all of us that you know, are doing the job and doing the work and seeing what we're doing every day to hear about you know, oh, here's the story about you know, senior advisors divided, here's the story. Joe Biden's having this press conference to drop out of the race.
Hello, it's (bleep) NATO. Excuse my language for all the people tuning in, but I will try to keep it on the down low. But you know how I like the swears.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: You know, she -- I mean, you know Jen O'Malley Dillon. She does like to swear. I don't think that's any surprise to those, who have covered her.
THOMPSON: Right.
COLLINS: But on this sense of what they're dealing with, if you've covered the Trump campaign, they deal with leaks all the time. Trump White House dealt with leaks all the time. This is kind of the first time we've really seen it in this way with the Biden campaign.
THOMPSON: That's completely right, which is that -- and they're sort of struggling with this very intense spotlight, not just on the campaign side. You also have seen in the press briefings, they have struggled with inconsistencies of answers.
And Jen O'Malley Dillon, she has a good amount of good -- of goodwill within the campaign, because she's a professional operative. But the problem is that there is the trust deficit, sort of a crisis of confidence within the broader orbit.
And that's why, you know, the thing is that Biden world has always been insular. And there haven't been that many reports. And this is the first time, where you're seeing all of this gossip, all of these insider palace intrigue stories spill into the open, and the people in the campaign aren't quite sure what to believe.
And that's why it's created this sort of like a feeding frenzy environment, where people are just not even sure about their jobs. You have some people that just decided to sign a lease in Wilmington, Delaware that are now not sure about their own future.
COLLINS: Yes.
THOMPSON: Right? And so, that's sort of the situation we're in, and why Jen O'Malley Dillon is really trying to re-stabilize the ship.
COLLINS: How would you describe tonight, how people are feeling inside the campaign, from what you've heard?
THOMPSON: I think it's completely split.
I think there are some people that feel these efforts are too little too late.
I think there are some people that are very despondent, that are basically, I think were shocked at Joe Biden's debate appearance. Had been telling, all of their friends and relatives that this right-wing caricature of dementia Joe or senile Joe, like it was all a conspiracy. And now, have had sort of to reckon with that, and they feel sort of embarrassed in their own personal ways.
And there are some people that are real true believers too, and are actually sort of rallying around the President.
So, it's very scattered.
COLLINS: Yes. Alex Thompson, great reporting, as always. Thank you for joining tonight.
THOMPSON: Yes.
COLLINS: Now, to the other side of this race, Donald Trump has a big announcement to make that he still has not made yet, his vice presidential pick. The convention starts on Monday. Trump says it's unfolding "Apprentice"-style. We'll tell you how, and who's up, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:36:47]
COLLINS: With the Republican National Convention just three days away, former President Donald Trump has yet to name his running mate, setting up a dramatic finale that could play out, on stage, in Milwaukee.
The former President threw out four names today. Yet again, Senator Tim Scott, though sources tell us that he seems to have fallen out of contention. But in the ultimate Trump fashion, he is keeping everyone, including those four candidates that you are seeing on screen, guessing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have some really, really good candidates and you know I may be leaning one way and that changes sometimes. You know, all of a sudden you see something that you like or you don't like and you lean a little bit differently.
It's like a highly sophisticated version of The Apprentice.
Ultimately, it's more of an instinct. You know, you develop an instinct, but I like to know all the facts before the instinct kicks in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Let's talk about this with New York Times Senior Political Correspondent, and CNN Political Analyst, Maggie Haberman.
And Maggie, obviously, it wasn't that long ago in 2016, when I think it was two days before the convention that Trump announced that he was picking Mike Pence as his running mate, even then still wavering after.
What are you hearing about where his head is out right now on this?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think he was actually pretty candid about where his head is, which is that he is keeping his cards fairly close. He is tossing a bunch of names around as he talks.
I think the reporting that Tim Scott is not actually on the shortlist is correct. I think that it is J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio and Doug Burgum.
And look, Donald Trump is a comfort zone and chemistry player. It's part of why he picked Mike Pence. Mike Pence also helped him as a bridge to evangelical voters. He doesn't need that bridge anymore. He really owns the party.
The person he has the best chemistry with, according to all of my reporting, is J.D. Vance. Whether he decides that there's something else that he needs in a VP remains to be seen.
But there is -- there is a part of him that seems to be enjoying this. And that came through in his voice in that -- in that interview.
COLLINS: One, of course, the people who aren't enjoying it, are the different camps that are set up here between.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: I mean.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: We've seen so much reporting come out in the last week or so, with stories about all three of these candidates, and what Trump may like about them, or not like. Everyone was watching Marco Rubio on stage in Miami.
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, what have you been hearing about what that's been like?
HABERMAN: Look, I mean, in terms of the -- how the camps are taking this. I mean, look, you've seen all kinds of reports about Rupert Murdoch is pushing Doug Burgum, and this person is pushing this one, or this person is pushing that one.
There is a lot of jockeying going on, as there always is, in Donald Trump's world around personnel. And that's essentially what this comes down to. It is an enormously powerful role. It is a person, who will be involved, in all kinds of aspects of policy, and other matters with Donald Trump, both -- for the rest of the campaign, and if the ticket wins. So, there is an immense amount of jockeying.
You are correct that there is a lot of anxiety around this. I take Trump at his word that he would like to do this, at the convention. Since it's Friday night, before the convention starts, and he likes ratings, and he likes when most eyes will be on him.
[21:40:00]
He has been -- other than his Truth Social feed, Kaitlan, where he has been unleashing a torrent of attacks, on Biden, and all sorts of other things. In terms of what he's saying, in more monitored media, he has been quieter, and he has just been letting the focus be on the Democrats, and their chaos. That's going to come to an end when the Republican National Convention starts.
COLLINS: Well, how much of that chaos though, with Biden, has factored into Trump's decision here, on the Vice President?
Because he very clearly does not, from what he's said, doesn't want Biden to drop out. I mean, he has criticized George Clooney, for calling on him to drop out. He was critical of others, for Nancy Pelosi, for what she said.
And he seemed to say today, also in that interview, that he wishes he could wait until past Monday, to name his vice president, but talked about how complicated that gets with the convention rules.
I mean, how much of that is weighing on this?
HABERMAN: I think that's a big part of it. I mean, it's certainly, the fact that the -- there was this, chaos with the Democrats, over the last two weeks, has allowed him to push his announcement back. And he is aware of that, according to all my reporting.
He has been mindful that he has more time. He likes attention to be on him. He likes, as I just said before, he likes attention to be on what he is doing. But also, I don't think that he has been in any kind of real rush, to announce this.
To your point, in 2016, he offered the role to Mike Pence, and then proceeded to tell Chris Christie, he hadn't made up his mind yet, and then went back and forth. And ultimately, it was revealed publicly that Pence was the pick, and they had this press conference. And that was that.
He seems to be similarly uncertain, this time. Even if he isn't actually uncertain, that's how he's behaving.
COLLINS: Am I remembering correctly that Chris Christie found out like, from Twitter, or online, or from a text or something? I don't think he even found out from Trump, right?
HABERMAN: He did find out from Trump. But before he found out from Trump, he found out from hearing that Pence was being flown into Teterboro.
And what happened was, Trump said, that's not true. I have no idea what's happening with -- I'm paraphrasing -- but I have no idea what's happening with that. Turn on your television. And Trump called into a cable news show, and said he hadn't really made up his mind, and held that up as evidence to Christie that it wasn't true. And then, of course, it was true that he had chosen Pence, and Pence was coming in. And then, Trump called Christie and said, I've chosen Mike Pence. And it was sort of the least confrontational way that he could do it. But Trump likes this kind of thing.
COLLINS: And they will all be in Milwaukee, we are told.
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: Maggie Haberman, thank you for that reporting.
HABERMAN: Thanks.
COLLINS: Up next, a judge just throughout Rudy Giuliani's a bankruptcy case today. That paves the way for those two former election workers that he defamed, to start collecting what he owes them. It is a long list.
Their attorney is here to join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:47:00]
COLLINS: A federal judge dismissed Rudy Giuliani's bankruptcy case, today, making it possible, for his many creditors, to try to seize his assets within days.
That includes his bank accounts, his $6 million New York apartment, his $3.5 million condo in Florida, a Mercedes-Benz car, a collection of 26 luxury watches, three World Series championship rings for the New York Yankees -- Yankees, and other baseball collectibles that he has, like a Joe DiMaggio shirt that he claims to own.
All told, the disgraced former New York Mayor owns more -- owes more than $150 million to some 20 businesses and people. Most of that though, is owed to Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, of course, the two former Georgia election workers that we all remember, Rudy Giuliani repeatedly defamed.
I'm joined now by their attorney, Rachel Strickland.
And Rachel, it's great to have you here.
Now that this decision has been made, do you try to plan to seize Rudy Giuliani's assets? And how soon?
RACHEL STRICKLAND, LAWYER FOR DEFAMED GEORGIA ELECTION WORKERS: Yes, immediately. The judge entered an order, today, saying that the case is going to be dismissed. There are some formalities around that. So that takes another couple of days. But after that, it's fair game.
COLLINS: Do you know which ones you'll go after? I mean, I just listed some of the ones that I know. He was not being totally transparent, according to the judge in court. But which ones do you think you'll go after? STRICKLAND: All of them, really. The lowest hanging fruit is obviously the New York City apartment. That's already been listed by a broker. And so, that's probably the first to go. But really, there's nothing off limits.
COLLINS: But even if you seized everything, it still -- would it amount to what he ultimately owes them?
STRICKLAND: Not even close. He doesn't have anywhere near that amount of money.
COLLINS: What was it like in court? Can you just kind of -- I mean, there was that hearing on Wednesday, we reported on, where the judge muted, or threatened to mute Rudy Giuliani's microphone. He was appearing virtually. Because of how he was acting.
I mean, can you just kind of describe what it was like in the room?
STRICKLAND: Sure. It was completely bizarre.
We were making an argument that the judge totally agreed with that the former Mayor has acted in bad faith since the very beginning. He filed this case, really moments after he learned that Miss Freeman and Miss Moss were going to be able to go and seize his assets. So, he did it as a defensive measure. And since that time, he really has done nothing honest, or straightforward, in the proceeding.
And the judge has observed over and over again, yet again, how Giuliani would just be gaming a judicial process, and he wasn't having it.
So, while I was making my argument, Giuliani started piping in over the phone, and screaming. He was completely unhinged.
The judge said, you're not allowed to speak, right now.
Mr. Giuliani said I need to speak to my lawyers. I need to take a break. He accused me of defaming him.
And the judge wasn't having it--
COLLINS: He accused you?
STRICKLAND: --and said, if you want to take a break?
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Of defaming him?
STRICKLAND: It was rich. But he did.
The point I was making that got him really upset was that one of the arguments that was being made, about whether he should stay in bankruptcy, was about whether or not he should stay in, and have a trustee, oversee his assets, effectively take control of his wallet from here on out. And I pointed out to the judge, that if that happened, and he once again refused to comply with the law, that not only would we have the option of seeking fines, but we would actually have the ability to go in and seek jail time of up to five years.
And in making that totally factual statement, he lost his mind, and started screaming.
So, it was pretty interesting and bizarre.
COLLINS: What did your clients think of all this?
STRICKLAND: Well, look, I mean, these are two unbelievably heroic women, who were doing their civic duty, that were really part of the democratic process, who had their lives upended by this man.
Really, four generations in their family have been impacted. Ruby, her daughter, Shaye. And her grandson was getting phone calls on his cell phone, using the N-word and threatening him. Her elderly mother was getting threatened. They had the FBI call them and say, you need to move from your home, you're in danger.
So, it's good to see that powerful people have consequences. And today was one of those days. So, they're very pleased. And they're very strong.
COLLINS: Rachel Strickland, I mean, it's remarkable to see where this story has ended up. Thank you for joining us.
STRICKLAND: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. You might have missed it. But there was a stunning twist today, as that involuntary manslaughter case that was happening against Alec Baldwin was abruptly dismissed by the court, and cannot be retried. We'll tell you the details, including where the judge put on latex gloves. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:56:29]
COLLINS: A remarkable legal victory, for Alec Baldwin, as the involuntary manslaughter case against him, was abruptly thrown out of court today, with the judge finding that the prosecutors failed to disclose key evidence, to Alec Baldwin's attorneys.
He, of course, was facing up to 18 months in prison, for the 2021 death of the cinematographer, Halyna Hutchins, on the "Rust" movie set.
The actor, seen sobbing, as the judge read her decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY L. MARLOWE SOMMER, JUDGE, FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO: The sanction of dismissal is the only warranted remedy. The jury has been sworn. Jeopardy has attached. And a mistrial would not be based upon manifest necessity.
Further, the sanction of dismissal is warranted in this case. The State has repeatedly made representations to defense and to the court that they were compliant with all their discovery obligations. Despite their repeated representations, they have continued to fail to disclose critical evidence to the defendant.
(ALEC BALDWIN CRIES AFTER JUDGE TOSSES CASE AGAINST HIM)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson, joins me now.
And Joey, there was this crazy moment, in court, where the judge herself put on latex gloves, cut open this manila envelope--
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
COLLINS: --that was filled with ammunition, and then came down from the bench to examine it. You can see her there, prosecutors, defense all around her.
I mean, are you shocked by this?
JACKSON: No.
COLLINS: As I am?
JACKSON: No. As it should be.
So, there are certain rules of engagement, Kaitlan, right? When you have a trial, we don't play trial by ambush. You have responsibilities. Those responsibilities run deep. You're dealing with someone's liberty. And so, it's basic. It's called discovery.
The prosecution collects the evidence. They give it to the defense. The defense tests it, analyze it and prepares itself for trial.
The judge's issue here is that it's willful. You don't get live rounds that are turned over. It happens to go in another file, not the file it should be. And then, the prosecution says nothing to see here. It's irrelevant. And it makes a unilateral decision, Kaitlan, oh, they're not identical.
That's not your decision to make. You hand it to the defense. They subject it to analysis. And it's either relevant or not.
And so, because of the discovery violation, and because we want to protect the integrity of the process, case has to be dismissed.
COLLINS: I mean, a prosecutor got on the stand, at one point, to try to kind of defend that.
JACKSON: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, it clearly didn't work. JACKSON: So, no. What happens is the lead prosecutor got on the stand, because there's a hearing. The judge held a hearing to determine how we got here. Right?
You indicated discovery was sent over. You said everything was compliant. And you know what? You acted in bad faith. And that's something you cannot do. You can't make representations to the court, with respect to discovery, with regard to your unilateral decisions, saying I just saw a picture of it. I didn't really analyze the ammunition.
The judge not too pleased. And I think this was beyond appropriate. This is what we do. This is what the integrity of the court system looks like. And the judge has to fashion remedy.
Sometimes -- not all the time, will a judge dismiss. The judge will do a number of other things, not allow the evidence in, right, sanction counsel, et cetera.
In this case, the judge said it's just -- it's too much. It's an intentional violation. We're going to throw the case out. Right call.
COLLINS: Basically, there was no way to remedy it in court.
JACKSON: Right.
COLLINS: But he can't be retried for this now.
JACKSON: That's exactly right. And so it's -- it was dismissed. This thing called very technically, prejudice, right, with prejudice and without prejudice. And so, this was dismissed without prejudice.
The reality is -- with prejudice, excuse me, which means that it cannot come back up again, double jeopardy attaches, the case is over. Twists and turns in this case. This is the last twist and turn. The case is done. And I think the other one may unravel too, with respect to the other conviction, so.
COLLINS: Remarkable. Joey Jackson.
JACKSON: Without question.
COLLINS: As always, great to have you.
And thank you all so much for joining us.
Make sure, on Sunday night, that you join us for a special edition of THE SOURCE. We're going to be live from Milwaukee, ahead of the Republican Convention, at 9 PM Eastern.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts now.
