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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Source: Biden "Seething" At Pelosi Amid Calls To Drop Out; Zelenskyy: Working With Trump Would Be "Hard Work"; Global Tech Outage Cripples Airlines, Businesses, Banks, Hospitals. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 19, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: CEO says that it will be a lengthy process, before things get back to normal. He promised full transparency, into how all of this happened. He also says the company will take steps, to prevent something like this from happening again.
Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Jason Carroll, thanks.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. Have a great weekend.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
We have new reporting on President Biden seething at Nancy Pelosi, as she maneuvers behind-the-scenes, and a new avalanche of Democrats calling on him to drop out.
Also, inside that phone call today, between President Trump and Ukrainian president Zelenskyy, the same leader, who was on the other end of the line, during the call that got Trump impeached.
And we're also learning about a big change that is coming to Trump's rallies, as the Secret Service is preparing to protect the nominee, in his first rally, since his attempted assassination, tomorrow, in Michigan.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, President Biden is in isolation, as he's fighting off symptoms from COVID-19. But he's also on isolation in the figurative sense, as he is now fighting off new calls, from his own party, to get out of the 2024 race.
The party that Biden has devoted his life to is unleashing a new and really public effort, to push him out of challenging Donald Trump for the White House. A slew of House Democrats have joined two more prominent Democratic senators tonight, in calling for Biden to step aside.
All of it, we are told, has President Biden seething, tonight, with much of his anger directed at Nancy Pelosi. That's because some of the names that are calling for him to drop out of the race are her close allies.
And in the view from Rehoboth Beach, Delaware, tonight, where President Biden finds himself, that is no coincidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, THE SITUATION ROOM WITH WOLF BLITZER: Did you consult or coordinate with her on your statement?
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Did not. I did not. I gave a heads-up after I made a decision to leadership. But I did not coordinate and did not ask permission. I reached this conclusion with, really, an agonizing decision, based on what I'm seeing in the data.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That is Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren. You'll remember her from the January 6 Congressional Committee. She is one of Pelosi's closest allies. That's why Wolf was asking if she coordinated her call, for Biden to get out of this race, with the former House Speaker.
And all this comes as The New York Times is also out with a doozy of a report, tonight, that says President Biden is also irritated with former President Barack Obama, seeing his former running mate, and I'm describing -- quoting The New York Times now, as the puppet master behind-the-scenes of all of these calls, for him to get out of the race.
Biden has not said he is going to do so. He's not moved an inch on that. He says he looks forward to returning to the campaign trail, next week, once COVID is behind him.
But we are closely monitoring what has developed into an intense and fluid situation, tonight, seemingly changing by the hour, at this point, as Democratic donors are also certainly feeling it. That's why Vice President Harris had to get on the phone with them, today, from the West Wing, as many of them say that their wallets are closed, until this matter is resolved.
Joining me tonight.
Bakari Sellers, a former Democratic State Rep from South Carolina.
Former New York City Mayor, Bill de Blasio.
And Republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton.
And Bakari, I mean, to see this reporting, from Carl Bernstein, tonight, on CNN, in the last hour, saying that how Biden is feeling, as he is lashing out and seething at Pelosi, and Obama, is pretty stunning to see such a break between three figureheads in the Democratic Party.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. But I actually think, in this particular situation, the President of the United States is right. I mean, I have even echoed on X or Twitter, or whatever Elon Musk calls it today, my disappointment with the leaders of the party, for the way that they're handling the situation. People I respect, people that I have a great deal of love for.
But Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, they're committing political malpractice. More harm has been done to Joe Biden, since June 27th than Joe Biden did to himself on June 27th.
And I think everyone knows that public pressure is not going to be the way that Joe Biden bows out of this race. But the fact that they've allowed this to boil over in public.
And at the end of the day, it's -- and there are two things, and I want to be -- we'll address it later. But there're two things.
One, the way that a lot of my friends, on the left, are handling this situation, by simply saying that we want Joe Biden to gracefully leave the stage. But the fact is, we know donors, we know leadership, we know other people, not only want donors to leave the stage, but they want Kamala Harris to leave the stage. It shows that either you're out of step or out of tune where the base and voters are, or you just don't give a damn anymore.
[21:05:00]
And what I am concerned about is the fact that Nancy Pelosi is probably the greatest Speaker we've ever had, in the history of the United States of America. And I don't want this to be her legacy.
COLLINS: Mayor, how do you see it? I mean, you're familiar with all of these figures in your party. It's pretty remarkable to see this break between them.
BILL DE BLASIO, (D) FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: It is. I mean, first, you know, I've talked with you about the fact that I feel for Joe Biden. It's an incredibly difficult moment, incredibly difficult decision.
I had to make a much more humble version of this decision myself, when you -- when you have to think about stepping away from the stage. And I understand why that brings out anger, frustration, et cetera.
But I want to say, ironically, in a group of 8-year-olds, I think Nancy Pelosi is being the adult in the room. I think Nancy Pelosi is actually talking to people about what they're feeling, and encouraging people to express their feelings, so that we can figure this out together.
I have never -- you know, I don't believe this is inside-the-family behind-closed-doors kind of thing. I think this has to be out in the open, and we have to deal with it once and for all, because the stakes are so high.
And in the end, this is an organic problem. This is not a creative problem. I respect Bakari a lot. I don't think this comes from the left. I don't think this is artificial. It predates the debate. It's an organic problem.
And so, for a lot of people, this sort of, it's the time to say the emperor has no clothes, and we have to decide what we're doing here.
And I got to tell you. I would follow Nancy Pelosi anywhere, because she can count votes. And I think her singular concern, right now, is how do we win? And that's what every-day Democrats, everyone I'm talking to, is obsessed with one thing. How do we win? And they don't feel like we're winning, right now.
COLLINS: Yes. And she had that really blunt call with Biden, where he was saying, well, that's not what the polls I'm seeing, and she's like, OK, well put--
DE BLASIO: Show me the polls, she says. Right.
COLLINS: --put Donilon -- Mike Donilon, one of his most trusted advisers, put him on the phone.
DE BLASIO: Right.
COLLINS: And Carl Bernstein has been talking to a lot of Democrats, about what is happening with Biden, who obviously is not surrounded by a lot of people, right now. He's got COVID. He's isolating. And this is what Carl said, just the last hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARL BERNSTEIN, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: Well, the President himself has now moved from being what was called contemplative, about his situation, to recognition that it is very unlikely that his candidacy can be sustained. And it's true of his family as well.
The President is angry. He feels abandoned. The word, abandoned, was used several times, in discussions I've had with people in the White House. The people that he had supported through his political career, and helped advance through the ladder of leadership in Washington, have now turned their back on him, in his view, and in a really ugly way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, the last time, Shermichael, that we saw discord between the candidate and the party's leaders this obvious, right before the election, was 2016--
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
COLLINS: --when all Republican leaders were essentially abandoning Donald Trump, and a very different situation.
SINGLETON: Yes, he ended up winning.
I think this is a little different, though. From a Republicans' perspective, strategically speaking, we're loving this. Every day that this lingers, and I think Bakari does have a point, the more of this infighting continues, in the public display? I think Democrats are running the risk of forcing a lot of their voters to become discouraged. I think political disenchantment will eventually set in. And many people that they need, particularly considering that this is an Electoral College race, four states, right? They're going to stay home.
So, Republicans are looking at turning out Trump's voters. They're looking at low-propensity voters. And they're saying if we can maximize and maintain 2020 levels, and maybe increase 2 to 3 percent, in a state like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, there is a mathematical path to beyond 270.
And so, I think just being objective here, Kaitlan, I think Democrats are making a catastrophic mistake, at this point. And not--
COLLINS: By trying to get Biden out?
SINGLETON: Absolutely.
COLLINS: But--
SINGLETON: And I don't know how you put this genie back at this bottle.
COLLINS: But what about that? Because it's not just through a political lens. I mean, The New York Times also says that Obama was shaken, when he saw Biden at the fundraiser in June, by how much he's aged, and how disoriented he seems.
Seth Moulton came out today with an Op-Ed, saying that when he saw Biden in Normandy, last month? He's known him for 10 years. That he says that -- he says that Biden didn't seem to recognize him. He didn't put that in his July 6th call, for Biden to get out of the race.
I do think it raises questions, though, if people are seeing things and not saying it publicly.
SELLERS: OK. I mean, I hear you. And we are running for President of the United States now. Seth Moulton has wanted to be President of the United States for a very long period of time. And I think he's polled -- he's gotten less votes than I have.
COLLINS: OK. But what about Obama being shaken by it?
SELLERS: But -- so -- but I -- but I hear you. I mean, that -- I don't -- I was being flippant with Seth. And I'm not going to be flippant with the former President of the United States. So, I hope viewers see this.
COLLINS: He appreciates that.
SELLERS: But one of the things I will say is, so what, all right? We are in the middle of July. First of all, elections aren't won and lost in July. But we have a decision to make. Either we can continue to try to fall in love, with my -- like my good friend, Mayor de Blasio, or we can fall in line. And that's what I'm trying to get people to do.
[21:10:00]
There's only one person who can determine whether or not he's going to be the nominee of the Democratic Party. And it's not Dr. Obama. It's not Dr. Schumer. It's not Dr. Pelosi. It's not Dr. de Blasio. It's Joe Biden. And so, allow the man the space to make the decision. He says he's in the race. If things change, if he evaluates things differently, so be it.
But what we're doing in public, right now, the George Clooney Op-Eds, the Adam Schiff. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, to see that these things aren't done in a vacuum.
COLLINS: But you think he should stay in?
SELLERS: What I think he should do is make a decision himself. And so, I'm very clear.
COLLINS: But he's made the decision.
SELLERS: Exactly. I'm very clear. If Joe Biden makes the decision to get out the race, there's only one person who can be the nominee.
But I will tell you this. The person who performs the best with White college voters, White suburban voters, White women voters, the person who puts us at 50 percent, with White voters, which is 70 percent of the electorate, his name is Joe Biden.
If we start with anybody else, we're probably at 38 percent, 40 percent of White voters, which we started with in 2012. And that means we have to have grows (ph) rain from the sky. We have to have a huge output of Latino voters. And we have to have young voters perform at rates that we haven't seen in a very long period of time.
And so, if we want to talk numbers? I would challenge Nancy Pelosi and anybody else to show me the numbers, get Donilon on the phone, and let's figure this out.
COLLINS: It's a huge risk.
SINGLETON: Well the numbers.
COLLINS: It's a huge risk.
DE BLASIO: Yes, I don't.
COLLINS: But also, knowing Biden, he's very stubborn, and he doesn't like to have his hand forced. I think anyone, people who love him, would describe him that way. Is there a chance he's more dug in, by seeing these--
DE BLASIO: No. I--
COLLINS: --the growing calls to get out?
DE BLASIO: I think there's a couple of different things here.
First of all, I think he was given some space, initially. Some of the media outlets got involved. But the party folks generally hung back the first week or two. He had that space.
Now, it's an organic feeling coming from people all over the party. And we've seen situations, where the leadership speaks from all different angles, and you've got to pay attention to that.
SELLERS: Who do you want -- who would you want to replace them?
DE BLASIO: We're going to come -- sure, we're going to come to that. But let me stay on this, though. Certainly, happy that you've talked about that. Let me talk about this.
Here's the bottom line. I disagree respectfully, with the notion that Joe Biden has this lock on White people, and the race is static, and the numbers are static, and everything's OK. I think what we've seen is a steady deterioration. And I'm very sad about that.
If you asked me a couple of months ago, I had a lot of hope that Joe Biden would be the person, that could pull it out again. But a lot of things have changed. And unfortunately, they've played into, I believe, the Republicans' hands.
Now, I think when you talk about the kind of rejuvenating dynamic of a new candidate. And I really strongly believe this. This is a country that loves new things. This is a country that pays attention--
COLLINS: Can I just be clear?
DE BLASIO: --to something different.
COLLINS: We've talked a lot about this. Do you think that Biden should get out of the race?
DE BLASIO: I am one of those people, who wants to give him the space. I'm not going to say those words. I think the facts are becoming increasingly clear. I think the facts are become increasingly clear.
But here's my point. You bring out a new person, you bring out a new campaign, you revitalize--
SINGLETON: In that case--
SELLERS: And that -- and that -- and respectfully, Shermichael, let me just say.
DE BLASIO: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
(CROSSTALK) SELLERS: Let me just say that's the rub -- that's the rub, in our party, right now. Because I would -- I would sit back and say, I would sit back and say, Mayor de Blasio, you have served this city admirably, and to be Mayor of this city not once, but twice shows that you have some chops that not most people have.
DE BLASIO: Sure.
SELLERS: And I would also follow up and say, well, who do you want?
DE BLASIO: And I'm staying here for a moment because I think we have to settle this first question. We really do.
SELLERS: But I can't -- I can't allow you, respectfully--
DE BLASIO: No, I--
SELLERS: --as a Democrat, in the party, to sit here and be like--
DE BLASIO: I can say this.
SELLERS: --be like -- be like, well, I like kind of Gretchen or I like.
DE BLASIO: I think we have a group of senators and governors--
SELLERS: See? That? That? No.
DE BLASIO: --who any of them--
SELLERS: No.
DE BLASIO: Any of them.
SINGLETON: I mean, guys.
DE BLASIO: And I think this is the point. Any of them give us a new chance.
SELLERS: The answer is not.
DE BLASIO: And right now--
SINGLETON: But Mr. Mayor?
DE BLASIO: --we need -- we need a reset.
SINGLETON: Mr. Mayor?
SELLERS: Why can't you -- why can't--
SINGLETON: Mr. Mayor? Just like, as the Republican here, and I want to take off my Republican hat--
SELLERS: Dude, why are you even on this show, Shermichael?
SINGLETON: --just as a strategist.
SELLERS: Why are you here?
SINGLETON: As a strategist, I'm working on three Republican presidential campaigns.
SELLERS: Which--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Well he says Republicans love this. Republicans are nervous Biden's going to get out.
SINGLETON: A ton of other campaigns, federal up and down. Mathematically, all of some of the names that I've seen circulated, on your side, they do not perform better than the sitting President, respectfully. And just being objective here. I have seen no evidence, even as a Republican, that Whitmer or Newsom or anybody else can somehow improve their numbers in 90 days.
DE BLASIO: Doesn't your candidate--
SINGLETON: That doesn't make any sense, Mr. Mayor.
DE BLASIO: --and your party, want Joe Biden to be the opponent?
COLLINS: Exactly.
DE BLASIO: Just -- just point-blank?
SINGLETON: I'm being objective. I am not being a partisan.
DE BLASIO: Point-blank?
SINGLETON: I'm purely being objective here.
SELLERS: But can I ask you?
DE BLASIO: Wait, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: But it is convenient.
DE BLASIO: We're all challenging each other. Don't we?
SELLERS: I know. But I'm trying to figure out--
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: --I'm trying to figure out why my Mayor -- why my Mayor can't say Kamala Harris.
DE BLASIO: Oh, I can say Kamala Harris easily.
SELLERS: OK. So, my point to -- my point to Tommy Vietor, and Jon Favreau, and Jon Stewart, my point to Barack Obama, and Clooney, and Nancy Pelosi, and Chuck Schumer, is the audacity, right, to simply say that Joe Biden should step out, without saying that Kamala Harris is the rightful choice, is a problem.
COLLINS: OK. And I want your response to that.
[21:15:00]
DE BLASIO: I know we're going to talk about it.
COLLINS: But we're going to talk about it after the break.
DE BLASIO: Yes.
SELLERS: That's called -- that is called a transition.
COLLINS: For everyone who wants to know--
DE BLASIO: We'll do that.
COLLINS: --what the Mayor was going to say?
DE BLASIO: That's not a transition.
COLLINS: He'll say it right after this break.
DE BLASIO: I get first dibs afterwards.
COLLINS: He does get first dibs.
Stay tuned. Because we'll hear from the Mayor, on what this could look like because it is a tense dynamic playing out between two leaders of the Democratic Party.
And what we're hearing tonight from Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez, who is warning about enormous peril, if her party does push Biden aside.
Plus this, Biden just -- excuse me, Donald Trump just got off the phone President Zelenskyy. What these two had to say to each other, in one of their first conversations, since Trump was impeached for their other phone call.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:13]
COLLINS: As the rebellion continues to grow, inside the Democratic Party, tonight, over President Biden's reelection bid, and right here at this table, as you just saw play out. Politico is reporting that the former House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi, wants there to be an open process to choose the nominee, should Biden step aside.
Now, emphasis on the should, there, given Biden has said he's not dropping out, and he hasn't done so yet. But one of President Biden's most ardent defenders, in the three weeks since that debate in Atlanta, that's Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, says she thinks the idea of having an open convention, where candidates would compete for the nomination is crazy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): And I have said, game out your -- your actual plan for me. Game it out. Have you looked in, like, what are the risks of this going to the Supreme Court?
I have stood up in rooms of folks making these decisions. And I have raised these questions. And no one had an answer for me.
I am not an open convention person. I think that is crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Bakari Sellers, and the former New York City Mayor, Bill de Blasio, are back here with me.
Also joining our conversation is David Gura, Bloomberg correspondent, and the host of Bloomberg's daily podcast, "The Big Take." Make sure you listen to that.
Mr. Mayor, that is a good question. And to the point that you were just making, and that what Bakari was making, what are they going to do? Because no one has articulated that.
DE BLASIO: OK. Well here's why I'm confused. We have a convention coming up. The convention is the formal mechanism, for determining a nomination. So, I don't know quite why everyone is so convinced, it's impossible to come up with a candidate, between now and a convention, one bigger point.
Second, to the open process. The virtue of the open process is we dominate the news for those weeks. And the winner is given the strength of having been the winner. In other words, there's no coronation. There's no inside job. They earned it. They showed their chops. They prepped for the general election campaign. I think there's -- just like I believe primaries are often the best way, to create a strong general election candidate.
Kamala Harris, undoubtedly, is in the strongest position. I think she'd be a great candidate. She's in the strongest position. I think she'd be a stronger candidate, if she went through an open process.
COLLINS: And emerged that.
DE BLASIO: Correct.
COLLINS: And Bakari, before I get to you.
It is a complicated process, David Gura, of what that would look like, and how it would play out. And that's the concern that you do hear from people, that's a real one, not just people who want Biden to stay in.
DAVID GURA, CORRESPONDENT, BLOOMBERG: Absolutely. And we're in this very difficult vacuum, Joe Biden is at the center of that, as this continues, and through all variety of circumstance, he's been unable to fight back in the way that one would assume he wants to, and the campaign wants him to be able to do that.
But yes, we have time. Conventions were hashed out on the floor in the past, with disagreements and arguments, the likes of which that we're having here. That could happen again. I mean, I think, going into this, before that debate, there was a sense that this was going to be a fragile and fractious convention, as it was.
You know what -- what I've been thinking a lot about is the signs along the way that could have prompted the campaign, and the party, to think through what might have happened, if this eventuality did. And I think back to that David Ignatius' column that was written in September of last year, almost a year ago.
And that was a seismic thing on this network, broadly speaking here, one of the President's favorite columnist, coming out and saying, with this format that we've now seen over and over again: Thank you, for all you've done, look at all of the achievements that you've had. Now, it's time to step aside. You floated this yourself during the campaign. Do it.
One would have thought, I think that during that moment, this process could have gone underway, what would this have been like, play out this counterfactual of how does the party deal with this, how does the campaign deal with this, going forward, if this became a bigger deal.
COLLINS: Yes.
Bakari?
SELLERS: His podcast is amazing, by the way. And I hope everybody listens to it.
COLLINS: We didn't even tell him to say that.
GURA: I appreciate it.
SELLERS: No, it is. It's quality.
DE BLASIO: He's a gentleman.
SELLERS: The--
DE BLASIO: He's a gentleman.
SELLERS: I'm trying to build colleagues.
DE BLASIO: That's why--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: He's trying to build in goodwill--
(CROSSTALK)
DE BLASIO: Yes. And an ally.
COLLINS: --teams up with you (ph).
SELLERS: Even let me just tell you why Mayor de Blasio's point is awful. OK. So, listen. So, where we are is that we -- Joe Biden can't get out the race today. Because tangibly speaking, what happens is, you go weeks without having a ticket. You go weeks without having a nominee. You go weeks without having somebody at the top of the ticket that's able to campaign and fight back.
COLLINS: That's a good point.
SELLERS: So, not only that. Thank you. Not only that.
But the other thing is that Kamala Harris, who is, as you say, well- suited, will not only take arrows from the Republican Party, but she will take arrows from those people, who want to dethrone her, in the Democratic Party. And so, you create what we were trying to alleviate, which is this circular firing squad.
And so, what I'm telling my friends, on the left, is that -- and thirdly, look, I mean, let's just -- let's just be completely honest.
[21:25:00]
You are not going to have the first African American woman, who is the Vice President of the United States, who stood behind this President, who actually as everybody has said, objectively, gotten meteorically better than she was, when she started, is a more than quality candidate, who performs well, on different tickets.
COLLINS: Also, she was elected--
SELLERS: And that was--
COLLINS: --as part of the Biden-Harris ticket.
SELLERS: I was getting to four. I know. That's what I'm saying. They won -- they won 14 million primary votes, and have $240 million in the bank. And you want to tell me that you do not -- and you want to have an open convention?
And what that looks like. And I know that Mayor de Blasio is not saying this. And he's not even intending for this to be the message at all. But what it feels like at home to viewers is, damn, we got to go through this again, like we just got to keep going and going for even people who have earned this?
And so, it puts a sour taste for those individuals, who have been there, day in and day out, who are going to have to show up in numbers that we can't imagine on Election Day.
DE BLASIO: Not when she wins, it doesn't.
And this is the point. She becomes a much stronger candidate by going through a process. And she gets to separate from Joe Biden, if it comes to this.
Look, we all agree it's Joe Biden's decision. We all honor Joe Biden. And I've said, I have a personal sympathy, having been in a similar situation, once upon a time.
But if Kamala Harris was the nominee, and I think she is by far the most likely nominee, at this moment, of anyone on earth, when it comes to the day in November, when people vote Kamala Harris as the most likely person on that ballot, she has to create some separation from Joe Biden.
Because unfortunately, the Republican indictment is hanging in people's minds. Some of that is penetrating. The public has been frustrated on some issues, like inflation. The public has been frustrated on his age. Kamala Harris needs to make a clean break, and by being a candidate that goes through a process, and wins, she gets to do it.
We dominate the airwaves. There's not going to be a firing squad. People are smarter than that. There'll be debate. But there's not going to be a firing squad.
COLLINS: But then Trump--
SELLERS: We are -- we are not--
COLLINS: But to be fair, if Biden got out tomorrow--
SELLERS: --we are not smarter than that.
DE BLASIO: We are, this time.
COLLINS: --Trump has the airwaves for a whole month by himself until that candidate--
SELLERS: That's right.
COLLINS: --is selected.
GURA: I actually would like disagree with that.
COLLINS: That Trump would be on it by himself (ph)?
GURA: And I think to your point, Mr. Mayor, that for this to be aired publicly, and Democrats be fighting with one another, for this nomination, this new nomination, would at least focus the campaign on Democrats once again, and the Democratic message. I mean, that's been, as I see it, for Democrats, the great catastrophe these last three weeks.
DE BLASIO: Yes. GURA: There was this long period of time after that debate where yes, he had space, as you were saying earlier, to figure all of this out. But it was this, again, yawning vacuum.
SELLERS: May I ask you a question, though?
GURA: Sure.
SELLERS: What prevents us from doing that now?
DE BLASIO: It's not happening. That's what--
SELLERS: That's not what I asked you. I just ask--
GURA: I mean--
SELLERS: --I ask what prevents us from doing that? Right now, you have every single member, whose name I barely know, their number 412, 417, a 170--
GURA: Adam Schiff's voicing it out (ph).
SELLERS: Well Adam--
GURA: I'd just say Sherrod Brown is voicing out as well.
SELLERS: --he's not even the United States senator yet. But Sherrod Brown is actually a name. Jon Tester. That's two of 51.
GURA: You got a quartet.
SELLERS: You're having two -- two of four--
GURA: You got a course (ph) for having to saying it.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: --two of 49. OK. Two of 51. Excuse me. But like that -- but very easily, we could rally. Like, that's my only point. Like, I don't -- I'm not muting the conversation. Have the conversation. But we can rally, like we can talk about these things.
COLLINS: But do we really think that all of -- Harris, I think, obviously, there is certainly an argument, because she is actually the Vice President. She's second in line to the presidency, right now.
But do we think that the other young Democratic governors, lawmakers, who are very ambitious, would just kind of cede the ground to her?
GURA: I think we don't know. And that's the trickiness of this moment.
DE BLASIO: If they--
GURA: Everybody -- every--
DE BLASIO: If they did not, it would be political-- GURA: Right.
DE BLASIO: --it'll be political suicide.
GURA: But I think--
SELLERS: If they cede the ground--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: We'll finish -- let him finish his point.
GURA: --in this moment, and we've seen the steady build of folks, in Congress coming out. But that's taken time and it's taken other people doing it first. None of these young Democrats are going to come out before this happens, and say anything.
There will be no -- we've talked a lot about the expediency of this moment, how little time there is between now and the convention. Time is ticking. I think that there will be an acceleration by which people would come out.
SELLERS: Can I?
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: I mean, but the question -- OK. I mean, I'm going to ask both of you all, and I would love if you answered it.
So, if you were a young Democrat, who was doing this, and you challenge Kamala Harris? The backbone of the Democratic Party, the people who select nominees are my mom and her friends, right? You understand the slight to them. So, how do you repair that? How do you fix that? How do you come out and do this, and have a political future which is successful?
COLLINS: Yes, that would be -- that's a great point. I mean, it would be -- if you're a Josh Shapiro, a Gretchen Whitmer, you're thinking, or I could just wait four more years.
DE BLASIO: Yes, I'm going to--
SELLERS: Unless she win.
COLLINS: And see what happens.
DE BLASIO: I'm going to -- I respect -- we 100 percent know who's--
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: You're respectfully disagreed with me the whole show.
DE BLASIO: Because I do respectfully disagree. I come from the most diverse city on earth. I was elected because of African American women, first and foremost. I think African American women, and everybody else in our party, if a group of candidates came forward and had a real discussion, again, which I think Kamala Harris prevails, and I don't think people think it's a slight or whatever.
But here's the curveball. I wouldn't be surprised if they say open, you know, we can take five candidates, or we can take six candidates, and no one but Kamala comes forward in the end. That's actually the best of all worlds.
GURA: Yes.
DE BLASIO: Have an open process, and she wins by acclamation. Perfectly possible.
COLLINS: Before we go, you're really not going to tell me if you think that Biden should get out?
DE BLASIO: I, again, I'm going to respect his personhood at this moment. I've been in that situation myself. But I think he's got to see all this that's happening, and decide, real quickly.
COLLINS: It sounds like a yes.
DE BLASIO: That's all I've got to say.
[21:30:00]
SELLERS: I don't even know what he said.
COLLINS: Well I tried.
Great to have all of you here. Thank you to everyone watching this debate that just played out, at the desk.
DE BLASIO: It was a friendly warm discussion.
COLLINS: Indeed it was.
Up next, it has now been almost five years since Donald Trump's self- described perfect call with the Ukrainian president, the one that ended up getting him impeached. Well they just spoke again today. We'll tell you what was said.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Something as simple as a phone call really shows the uncertainty that even world leaders are facing about the future of America's role, on the international stage.
[21:35:00]
Donald Trump, and Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, spoke today, in one of their first calls since Donald Trump left office. The now-official Republican nominee described it later, as a quote, "Very good phone call." Of course, he often says their most memorable conversation, the one that ultimately led to his first impeachment, when he was president, was a perfect call.
Now, all of this is happening as President Zelenskyy is acknowledging the challenges that his nation could face, if Donald Trump and J.D. Vance, who is a staunch opponent of sending more aid to Ukraine, are elected to the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: So for us, we have to work with the United States. And if new team will come, we have to work with them. We need their support.
CHRIS MASON, BBC POLITICAL EDITOR, BBC NEWS: It would be hard work, I guess.
ZELENSKYY: Hard work.
MASON: Could be hard work to persuade them.
ZELENSKYY: Yes. But we don't -- I mean, we don't afraid of hard work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source, tonight, has served on the international stage, for every Republican administration, in the last three-plus decades. He was Donald Trump's National Security Adviser. Ambassador John Bolton is here.
And Ambassador, it's great to have you here.
Before we talk about this call, that happened with Trump and Zelenskyy, and what all that would mean for Ukraine. I just do want to get your reaction, given how rare it is, that politicians often get a second look from voters, to Donald Trump's speech, last night.
They promised this message of unity. It was 92 minutes. He called Nancy Pelosi crazy. He said the 2020 election was ridiculous. He praised Hungary's authoritarian strongman leader.
What did you make of that speech?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, it was a Fidel Castro length speech, which Trump loves to do, and a lot of it was about himself, including the attack in Pennsylvania.
There was a bow toward national unity, at the beginning of the speech. But then the rest of it was vintage Trump. I don't think all in all, it had much of an effect.
I will say the convention itself was very well-produced, and at least in typical times, that would give the ticket a bounce. But we'll see what the polls say.
But the Trump speech, I thought plowed no new ground and is really just vintage Trump. COLLINS: Well, and given that call that he had the day after he left Milwaukee, with President Zelenskyy, Trump is describing it as a very good call.
But you just heard from Zelenskyy there, on what a second Trump term could mean, especially given he picked Senator J.D. Vance of Ohio. I mean, it would really kind of seem to seal this isolationist approach that Donald Trump takes to foreign policy, or wants to take in a second term.
What would that look like? And what would that mean for Ukraine, if they win?
BOLTON: Well, I think it's very bad news for Ukraine. Look, I don't think Donald Trump has a philosophy. Doesn't do policy. He does deals. That's how he sees the world.
And he said, in the statement about his conversation with Zelenskyy, I, as your next President of the United States, will bring peace to the world, and end the war that has cost so many lives and devastated countless innocent families.
Now, I'm not a shrink. But I know the technical term, for somebody who says, I will bring peace to the world. This is nuts. He has no idea how he's going to negotiate an end to this war, except I think that his affinity for Vladimir Putin will lead to concessions to the Russian side, that are going to be devastating for Ukraine.
So, I think this is a very dark moment. And it's not just a dark moment for Ukraine. Because we haven't come to their assistance, out of the goodness of our hearts, out of an act of charity.
We have been assisting Ukraine, because it's in the core of American national security interest, to defend against unprovoked aggression, on the continent of Europe, and to try and get peace and stability there, that benefits us in innumerable ways.
We're not doing this gratuitously for Ukraine. I think the way the Administration characterizes it as kind of esoteric fight about democracy, is just wrong. This is about hardcore American interests that neither Donald Trump nor J.D. Vance--
COLLINS: Yes.
BOLTON: --apparently understand.
COLLINS: But, I mean, on top of the foreign policy stuff, when you look at that convention, Mike Pence wasn't there. It's pretty remarkable someone who was the Republican vice president, four years ago, doesn't get invited to his party's convention. Chris Christie wasn't there. And I just wonder how you see the Republican Party overall right now.
Because look at what someone like Utah governor, Spencer Cox, said. He was on this show, last week. Last week. And I asked him if he was going to vote for Donald Trump. And this is what he told me. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SPENCER COX (R-UT): I haven't voted for the top of the ticket, since 2012. I've certainly had my concerns. One of those is what happened on January 6th.
And so, I've said I'm not going to vote for either presidential candidate this year. I'll write somebody in, as I've done in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After Saturday, and what happened in Butler, Pennsylvania, the attempted assassination, he says today, he's going to support Donald Trump. He is going to be voting for him, come November.
And I just wonder what you make of that as you yourself is someone who's not voted for Donald Trump in November.
BOLTON: And don't plan to vote again, this November.
[21:40:00]
Look, everybody's got to make peace with their own conscience. I just say, I don't think there can be a long-term effect of Donald Trump, because ultimately, politics is about philosophy. And he doesn't have one.
The day Donald Trump is sworn in? And given the way the Democrats are acting, I think it's a near certainty, at least as long as Biden remains their nominee, Donald Trump will win. The day he is sworn in, he's a lame duck.
Senators elected, this November, Republican senators will have terms that expire after Donald Trump leaves office. They already begin in a post-Trump world. And the fight for sound national security policy and a Reaganite defense policy, a Reaganite economic policy are going to begin again.
This is far from over. This is Donald Trump's moment. It's not going to last.
COLLINS: But what does it say about principles, for people, who fervently are against Donald Trump, and say they're not going to vote for him, and a week later say that they are? Isn't this just Republicans realizing Donald Trump is your party and that's what it's going to look like at the end of the day?
BOLTON: Well, politicians are that way. People love to talk about the lock Donald Trump has on the party.
You just had a half an hour's worth of show, showing the lock Joe Biden has on the party. Well, we'll respect the President's decision. I mean, if the lemmings want to run off the cliff with Biden, they're perfectly capable of doing it.
I don't accept Donald Trump as the leader of the party. And that was true before. It's true now. It'll be true in the future. The fight goes on. This is not -- there's nothing in politics in America that's ever final.
COLLINS: I think Joe Biden would like more of a lock on his party. But we'll set that aside for now.
Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for joining tonight.
BOLTON: Glad to do it.
COLLINS: And coming up. We have new reporting on the gunman, who carried out that assassination attempt. That was almost a week ago tomorrow. This is as the Secret Service is now scrambling to beef up security, ahead of Donald Trump's next rally, tomorrow night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:46:07]
COLLINS: Tomorrow, we are going to see former President Donald Trump holding his first rally, since last Saturday's terrifying assassination attempt on his life. This time, his new running mate, J.D. Vance, will be there with him.
And sources tell CNN tonight that Secret Service officials are scrambling to increase security, ahead of that Michigan event, which will be held indoors.
Now, we're hearing that all future rallies and events are being entirely rethought, in the wake of what happened, including whether outdoor events should be ruled out entirely.
Now, this comes as investigators, tonight, we have learned, have recovered a drone that belonged to that gunman. A source telling CNN they believe that the shooter flew it over the area the day of Trump's rally, to get an overview of those nearby buildings, and how their rooftops connect.
My source tonight on this is Jonathan Wackrow, the former Secret Service agent, and CNN Law Enforcement Analyst.
I mean, I got to ask you about this reporting.
JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Hi, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Because Donald Trump Jr. tweeted tonight, saying that he couldn't even fly a drone, over his dad's beach house, him personally, them knowing that he is his son. And the fact that this was allowed to happen. What do you make of that?
WACKROW: Well, listen, I think what you're, as the investigation goes on, we're seeing more and more information come out, about the attacker.
What we're seeing is an elevated level of pre-attack surveillance that has been applied. But the challenge for law enforcement is it's with off-the-shelf technology. We're talking about drones, range finders.
We're seeing a level of sophistication though, applied to this attack that the Secret Service really hasn't seen in years, especially when we're now talking about aerial surveillance, while the site is currently secure. Because the reporting is that around 4 o'clock, that drone went up. That means that that site was already secure.
So, now we have another question that needs to be answered by the Secret Service, as to what was -- what was going on, with the aerial surveillance and security program? Was there any? Yes or no? And what's the plan for the future, to mitigate that type of vulnerability?
COLLINS: Yes. It's a big question of how do you miss someone flying a drone overhead? I mean, obviously, that's something they would look for, as a threat level. But also--
WACKROW: But Kaitlan, I'm kind of shocked with it -- how do you miss a man with a gun, on a roof, a 130 yards away from the protectee?
COLLINS: And why did they let -- why did they let him on stage? If they -- we know that they had reports of a suspicious person. Why would you let your protectee get up on stage then?
WACKROW: So, it comes down to, I think, when the investigation is revealed, and the findings from the investigation, what they're going to find is that there were multiple points of failure in communication, and how we're communicating with our local law enforcement partners, internally, with the working shift, because there is a difference between the working shift, the people that arrive with the protectee--
COLLINS: Right.
WACKROW: --and the agents that are conducting the advance, and in protecting the site.
So, you're going to see different levels of communication breakdown. And that's what the Secret Service has to address, right now, in this mission assurance review, is where were those breakdowns?
COLLINS: Yes.
WACKROW: And quickly change and modify their approach.
COLLINS: They're considering rethinking all outdoor events. You think those should be out-ruled -- ruled out?
WACKROW: I think, right now, it's a good call. It's not forever. But why don't we take a pause, with where we know we've had challenges before, and not have them?
COLLINS: Has the Secret Service Director -- you know, I was in Milwaukee. She was there on the ground. She was already there when the shooting happened. And she was chased down by Republican senators, who did not get enough answers, they said, from her, in a briefing they had earlier today.
I spoke to Senator Barrasso of Wyoming. He was very upset with how that briefing went.
Has she been transparent--
WACKROW: No.
COLLINS: --enough?
WACKROW: She hasn't.
There is a level of frustration that is -- that is shared by Senators, members of Congress, but the general public. The silence after the immediate attack is deafening. We have to start getting some answers, or at least some reassurance that our political leaders are safe, that we're not putting them out there in danger.
The Secret Service is known for comprehensive threat analysis and building out security structures.
[21:50:00]
We saw the finest moments of the Secret Service on that day. That's not in dispute at all. We saw the quick reaction, by the agents, around the former President. We saw the threat being neutralized by the counter sniper teams within seconds. So, we saw the best on that day.
But we actually saw the worst. And the worst was from the proactive side, the advanced process. There is a breakdown there. There is some sort of security failure that occurred, that must be identified and then communicated trans -- with transparency--
COLLINS: Yes.
WACKROW: --to the American public that hey, this is the problem. We have now fixed this, and now we can move forward.
COLLINS: Are you surprised she hasn't resigned?
WACKROW: I -- with all of the political activity of the RNC, I understand why not. But I think that potentially those days are numbered.
COLLINS: Jonathan Wackrow, thank you--
WACKROW: Thank you.
COLLINS: --for bringing your expertise to the table tonight.
Up next, a planet today that was paralyzed by mass tech outages. Thousands of people were stranded at airports, many of our colleagues coming back from that convention. Hospitals were forced to cancel surgeries. 9-1-1 calls went unanswered. Packages undelivered. And it's not over yet. We'll tell you why, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:22]
COLLINS: Tonight, government officials, companies and untold numbers of people, around the world, are still reeling from what one expert described as the largest tech outage in history.
CrowdStrike, the software company, that inadvertently published and pushed a glitched software update to Microsoft computers, overnight, says it has now deployed a fix.
But that fix did not come before airports descended into absolute chaos today. Payment systems went down. Hospitals had to cancel critical appointments and surgeries, because of what happened.
A California nurse even told CNN that baby heart monitors stopped working, along with automated medicine cabinets that dispense drugs for them that they rely on so much.
People have been impacted in ways that you may not have expected.
In Arizona, hotel key cards could not be made. Guests had trouble getting into their rooms, while others were using chairs as door- stoppers to prevent lockouts.
The DMVs shut down in Texas and South and North Carolina, because of this.
In San Diego, courts were really brought to a standstill, and jail bookings had to be limited.
And if you were waiting for a package from UPS, or FedEx? Good luck, because you're going to have to wait a bit longer, because of what happened today. They notified that there would be delays in their system, because of this CrowdStrike outage.
I want to talk about this with the former FBI Deputy Director, and cyber expert, Andy McCabe.
And it's great to have you here.
Because this wasn't a hack. It wasn't a breach, which I think it was what a lot of people expected, and kind of feared. But what do you make of how a single flaw, in a software update, took down so many systems and services that we rely on?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Kaitlan, it says a lot about how interdependent our lives are, our culture is, our economy and all the players in it are. And there are a number of really big players in that environment, who most of us rely on. And when one of those big players makes a mistake, it has repercussions, all around the globe.
We've got to remember that software producers, whether they're cybersecurity producers, like CrowdStrike, or others, are in a constant race, to stay one step ahead of the next cybersecurity threat, be that from criminal actors or nation-state actors. So, they are constantly in these cycles of updating their products, and sending those updates out to us, automatically.
If you listen to the FBI, or CISO, or any other government agency, they will constantly tell you, you've got to keep updating your systems, to stay ahead.
So, when one of those players, in this case, CrowdStrike, mistakenly built an error into their update, it has unbelievably broad impact on the entire economy and people's lives.
COLLINS: Well, and it -- it doesn't really seem avoidable? How do you see it?
MCCABE: I personally, I don't see it as avoidable at all, right? This is not a matter of a hack, in which a company was negligent, and protecting itself from malicious cyber actors. This is simply human error.
CrowdStrike built this update, and unfortunately included in it, a corrupted file. That could happen, really, in any company, in any entity, at any time.
I know there is some reporting that CrowdStrike has had this problem once in the past. So, it's possible that their -- this error could cause, you know, could have a real effect on their position in the market. But nevertheless, it's not the kind of thing that really, I think, we can ever completely rule out.
COLLINS: But given the implications of it, the impact, I mean, the scale of it, is being described as historic. And obviously, it wasn't intentional, from what we know.
But for people who are asking, should software firms face consequences, when something in their code can cause major disruptions? I mean, it's not just being annoyed, because your flight was canceled or delayed. I mean, when it comes to hospitals, and jails, and DMV offices, I mean, these are pretty critical parts of life that need to be able to function.
MCCABE: Sure. You would expect that producers, who engage in these kind of -- you know, have these kinds of errors that impact people and businesses, in these sorts of ways, might actually experience some accountability in the civil lawsuit system, right?
That's what -- we have that ability and other -- businesses have that ability to go after companies, who they think have performed negligently or recklessly. I'm sure. we'll probably see some of that here in the aftermath of this outcome.
But I think what we'll also see is the market forces that tend to kind of push consumers towards these big well-known producers, like CrowdStrike, I think you're going to see a change in CrowdStrike's position in this market. It may break open some opportunities, for other companies to come in and say, hey, we can do the job better. [22:00:00]
COLLINS: Yes. We'll see if they do, and what that looks like. I mean, it was majorly disruptive.
Andrew McCabe, thank you for breaking it all down for us.
MCCABE: Thanks.
COLLINS: And thank you all so much, for joining with us, and sticking with us, on this very busy news week. We expect it to continue.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
