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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Transition Team Caught Off Guard By Hegseth Allegation; Trump Weighs Fierce Loyalist Kash Patel For FBI Chief; Trump's "Department of Government Efficiency" Seeks "Super High-IQ" Staff For "Tedious" Unpaid Work. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 15, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
New reporting on the concerns inside Trump's team, after they were caught off-guard by a sexual assault allegation made against the President-Elect's pick to lead the Pentagon.
Plus, we'll speak to a source who worked inside the first Trump administration. What she saw then, and why it's even more relevant this time around.
And Elon Musk, now hiring for the Department of Government Efficiency, the outside group that Trump has likened to the Manhattan Project of this era. Are you in the top 1 percent of super high-IQ candidates, willing to work 80-plus hours per week? Oh, and did I mention, you'd be working for free?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
From the halls of Mar-a-Lago, this evening, several candidates are still milling about, as President-Elect Donald Trump is slated to announce even more Cabinet picks in the coming days. But news and a sexual assault allegation about one of his most controversial choices is roiling his senior staff, tonight.
I have new details on how there are real questions, inside Trump's team, about Pete Hegseth's future as the next Secretary of Defense. He was already facing questions about his ability to be confirmed by the Senate. That was before Trump's team learned, this week, of a sexual assault allegation, against Hegseth, from seven years ago.
It had only been about 48 hours, since Trump announced his pick, when the transition team was brought information that aligns with what Monterey, California Police describe as an investigation into an alleged sexual assault involving Hegseth, on October 8, 2017.
Hegseth had been slated as a speaker at a conference that was held by the California Federation of Republican Women. That was at a hotel, during the time when that alleged assault took place. That's according to photos that were posted on Facebook and confirmed by CNN.
Now, I should note, Hegseth has not been charged in any criminal case. His attorney denied any wrongdoing here.
But the information was serious enough that Trump's incoming Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, questioned Hegseth, about it, during a call, this week, we're told. Wiles also asked Hegseth, if there were any issues that the team should be aware of, moving forward. That's one concern that I've heard from other sources in this world, as that there could be more information to come out.
Now, it's important to recall here, just how fast Hegseth was chosen for this job. He had not been on any initial shortlist for Pentagon potentials. He was given the gig, about 24 hours after he had been summoned to Mar-a-Lago for an interview. He was never vetted by an outside firm. And I'm told, he had very little internal vetting.
The Trump transition team has not signed ethics agreements with the federal government yet. That's an important part of the transition process that typically happens, when one candidate wins the election, and still works with the current administration. But what it means by not signing those agreements means that no FBI background checks have occurred.
Even though Trump's Transition Co-chair was here, just a few weeks ago, on this set, saying that they would soon sign those agreements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, CO-CHAIR, TRUMP-VANCE TRANSITION TEAM: It's not going to be an issue. We are ready for the transition for Trump-Vance. We are so ready.
COLLINS: But do you think you'll ultimately get them signed, after that jostling behind-the-scenes? Or do you think maybe you won't sign them at all?
LUTNICK: Oh, we'll probably get them signed. But it's, as I said, it's up for the lawyers to work it out. But these are not important issues. This is sort of a low-grade issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, it clearly is shaping up to be an important issue.
And I should note, this comes as Trump's other Cabinet picks are also shaping up for divisive nomination fights.
House Speaker, Mike Johnson, today, changing and flip-flopping on whether or not the report from House -- the House ethics investigation into the former Congressman, and now Trump's Attorney General pick, Matt Gaetz, should be released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The Speaker of the House is not involved in that. Can't be involved in that.
I'm going to strongly request that the Ethics Committee not issue the report.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are here at the table tonight, including:
Former New York City Mayor, Bill de Blasio.
Republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton.
And the host of Spectrum News' "The Big Deal With Errol Louis," CNN Political Commentator, Errol Louis.
Shermichael, if you were on the Trump transition team, how would you view the vetting process, that's clearly not really happening, or not happening in a fulsome enough way, right now?
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: So, look, I used to be an opposition researcher, a couple years ago.
And usually, when Republican candidates would hire the firm, you start off doing opposition research on the candidates themselves. You want to be prepared, for anything that could potentially come out from their opponent, or groups supporting the opponent. So that's the first thing that I would do.
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If there are some questionable things, and you begin the process of working on messaging, trying to figure out, Well how to respond to these things? Are they serious enough where we can't move forward with this person? Or do we think we could potentially weather the storm without losing enough of those Republican senators, one, to get the person out of committee, and obviously, to get them confirmed before the full Senate? So, that's how I would approach this.
I think when you're looking at someone like Gaetz, in particular. We've seen a lot of Republicans in the Senate say, Hey, I want to see more. I want to see the ethics report from Ethics Committee in the House.
I think the question for the team, advising the President-Elect is, how much political capital, this early on, do you want to expense, to try to defend him? Or in a couple weeks, you say, Look, we have more priorities to focus on. Let's throw someone else out there. That's up to the President-Elect to ultimately make that decision.
But if I were advising him, I would say, Mr. President, here are our steps here. You decide which one you ultimately want to take. We'll back you. But this is a tough place to be. It really is a tough place to be, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Mr. Mayor, it's obviously another nominee now that is under scrutiny for this, in a very different sense, but Pete Hegseth with this.
I remember, in Trump's first term, he was actually -- his name was thrown around for a potential Veterans Affairs cabinet position. It was quickly withdrawn in, in a sense (ph), where people didn't take it seriously.
I spoke to someone, today, who was working for Trump, at that time, and said there were rumors about this. Not substantiated. They don't know.
But that's something that would have been a discussion, right, when you're deciding who to put in this cabinet role?
BILL DE BLASIO, (D) FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Yes, this is really even shocking for the Trump-world, to have had no real vetting, to move this quickly. And I think it's a sign of sort of an impending recklessness.
In the first Trump administration, to be fair, he chose a lot of very well-established figures, for key posts, folks who had very distinguished records, and had gone through vetting before.
This time, it seems to be go as fast as they can, be as reckless as they can be, as extreme as they can, and it's coming back to bite them.
And I think what is perhaps being forgotten here is now the public is forming their opinion of Donald Trump as a leader, not as a candidate, as a leader. This is not a good start, especially when two major figures have sexual assault or sexual misconduct allegations, or facts against them from jump. I think, particularly for the women of this country, that's going to raise questions anew about what this President is going to be all about.
COLLINS: Well, and both of which I should note that they have denied, either themselves, or through an attorney.
But on that front, with Pete Hegseth, Errol, Trump's team seemed worried, people I was talking to, that more could come out, that if this was just it, maybe they could deal with this and move on. But they were -- they're worried more would come out.
But I think the question is, ultimately, not just that Trump's team cares, but does Trump himself care?
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST, "THE BIG DEAL WITH ERROL LOUIS" ON SPECTRUM NEWS: Well, look, Donald Trump jumped out here with sort of a speed and energy that are actually just reckless, right? I mean, there's no reason that he needed to name all of these people, in the first 10 days, right? It could have been 10 weeks. It could have been spread out.
You could have put a process in place, even if it was clear, who the President wanted. He could have told the transition team, Here's who I want, but let's go through the particulars, make sure that there's nothing out there embarrassing.
The question that you say Susie Wiles asked, is a question that you're always supposed to ask, when you're vetting. Is there anything out there that we haven't talked about that could embarrass this administration--
DE BLASIO: Before the announcement.
LOUIS: --or this President-Elect.
DE BLASIO: Before the announcement.
LOUIS: And let's do that before the tweet goes out.
DE BLASIO: Not afterwards.
LOUIS: Right. So, but -- so, he's made a decision.
If the style and the speed is, Let's get in fast and break stuff, he has succeeded at that. But there's a lot of chaos that comes with that. And if that's what we're in for, for the next four years, if he's decided that that will be the governing style? I suppose, he might as well get on with it.
SINGLETON: Yes.
LOUIS: But I don't know if that's the image that he wanted to portray, even before taking office.
COLLINS: Well and--
LOUIS: That it's going to be chaos, all over again.
COLLINS: But this is also highlights why the confirmation process, by the Senate, is so important, is to be able to ask questions of these candidates. Trump obviously has talked about sidestepping it.
Speaking of what the administration is going to look like, when it takes office. Trump announced tonight that Karoline Leavitt is going to be his press secretary, inside the White House briefing room. Not a surprise. She's often out there, representing Trump on television.
SINGLETON: Yes.
COLLINS: She has the style that he likes. She can be combative and do interviews.
But I was flagged by our KFILE team, tonight, of when she was running for Congress, in 2022, this is what she said about what it's like to speak for Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY PICK: Oftentimes, we were dealt with defending some of the things that he had said or done, and it made it difficult.
There were oftentimes, when I was working in his White House, as a spokeswoman, when he said or did things that we did not agree with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SINGLETON: I think that's OK. I mean, look, he chose Marco Rubio, and others who were critical of him in the beginning, who have now had a change of heart. JD Vance has admitted honestly that, Hey, I had some different views in the past.
DE BLASIO: Big difference. Big difference.
SINGLETON: He's changed his mind.
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Look, Karoline is incredibly talented, as a communicator. She's well- respected by folks within the orbit. Many Republicans on the Hill know her. I think she does a pretty good job of articulating MAGA-ism, if you will, the sort of Trump's populist nationalist message, to people who sort of aren't members, or ardent, rather, followers of the former President.
And so, I'm not surprised that he chose her. I think she has a bright future in Republican politics. And it also showcases that Donald Trump does have strong women behind him, just like Susie Wiles.
COLLINS: It is a difficult job, though, speaking for Donald Trump. Anyone who's done it will tell you that.
I mean, Howard Lutnick, that you were just listening to, the Transition Co-chair, he was in this chair, just a few weeks ago, saying, RFK Jr. will not be HHS Secretary, he doesn't want it. And, of course, last night, he was named HHS Secretary. It's just a sign of you can never really speak for Trump.
DE BLASIO: Yes. And Howard Lutnick was right. I mean, I think that represented a faction in the Trump-world that was trying to actually protect Trump from the problems that will come from RFK Jr. being in that position.
I think some what we're seeing here is, yes, the difficulty of speaking for or representing someone, who is changing the play all the time. But I also think every administration has sort of factions within it. And I believe there is a part of the Trump-world that recognizes the dangers of what's being done right now.
When RFK Jr. gets out there and tells people to do something that is proven to be unhealthy, and bad things happen as a result? People lose their life as a result? Or if it is Hegseth, for example, and he can't handle the managerial reality of the Pentagon, because he's never been close to that level of management? Or if Tulsi Gabbard does something that seems to favor Russia? You go down the list, these are all vulnerabilities that will all come back to haunt the Trump administration.
So, I think some of this is people inside, trying to say, We have to be more careful than what we're actually seeing here.
COLLINS: Yes, and we actually heard something, a rare statement from former Vice President Mike Pence, today. He doesn't -- he hasn't really spoken out much since the election. He congratulated Trump and JD Vance.
He came out against RFK Jr., as the HHS pick. Maybe not for why people think. He said, "I believe" that "the nomination of RFK Jr. to serve as Secretary of HHS is an abrupt departure from the pro-life record of our administration and should be deeply concerning to millions of Pro- Life Americans who have supported the Republican Party and our nominees for decades."
And then, he went on to say, basically, Senate Republicans, if you're listening, you shouldn't confirm this guy.
LOUIS: Yes, it's very interesting. Because, having never run a trillion-dollar agency? Not a deal-breaker, right? Advocating for the use of unpasteurized raw milk? Not a deal-breaker. Saying that he doesn't think HIV causes AIDS? Not a deal-breaker. Calling COVID vaccine the most deadly vaccine in the history of the world, or something like that? None of that's a deal-breaker. But if you're not right on abortion, well, now we've got a problem. That's what Mike Pence is saying.
It's extraordinary. A lot of people are going to have a lot of different perspectives to bring to the table. Hopefully, if there is a Senate confirmation hearing, all of this will come to light. And some of the more important matters, far more important than where you are on abortion, which has been settled by the Supreme Court, at least for now, I hope will be more front and center.
COLLINS: Yes, but you don't want -- the view inside the Trump-world with what's going on with Pete Hegseth and Matt Gaetz. I heard from someone today, it was like, I think RFK will be one of the easiest confirmations that he'll be able -- that he will be more amenable, the Senate will be more amenable to him. I mean, I don't know if that's true, because Murkowski and Collins are on that committee that has to get him out. But.
SINGLETON: Look, if you go to the entire Senate, you can't lose any more than four votes. You lose three, the Vice President obviously can get you to 51.
I think some of the other names are going to be easier. The thing with the others that are a bit troublesome is what else is out there.
I mean, this goes back to being an opposition researcher. I would immediately want to say, Hey guys, let's sit down. Let's have a conversation. I need to ask you 50 questions. We need to do a deep- dive on you, because you can't embarrass the President-Elect, like he has a lot of momentum right now. We want him to hit the ground running hard.
DE BLASIO: And RFK Jr.--
SINGLETON: This doesn't help.
DE BLASIO: RFK Jr. is erratic by nature, and that you don't know what's going to happen.
SINGLETON: But he can get confirmed, though, Mr. Mayor.
DE BLASIO: Yes, I'm saying. But there -- it's a ticking timebomb, and they have to be thinking about what they're buying into with that.
COLLINS: Everyone, thank you for that. We still a few more Cabinet picks to come.
Up next. Trump allies, speaking of people who can get confirmed by the Senate, his allies want him to fire the FBI Director, yes, the one that Trump hired, after he fired the last FBI Director, and instead install the ultimate loyalist. We're going to speak to the former Deputy FBI Director about that.
Also tonight. Rudy Giuliani has just turned over his luxury watch collection and that 1980 Mercedes that he went to vote in, last week, over to the election workers he was found guilty of defaming.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A lobbying effort has been underway, at Mar-a-Lago, by Donald Trump's far-right allies, who want him to fire the current FBI Director, Chris Wray, who is in the middle of his 10-year term that Trump nominated him for, in 2017, when he had fired James Comey, the former FBI Director. But now, they want him to fire Chris Wray, and nominate Kash Patel to take his place.
Now, Kash Patel may not be a household name, to a lot of people. But his loyalty to Trump runs very deep, through his time in office and beyond.
During the Robert Mueller investigation, Kash Patel helped run the Republican response, in the House.
During Trump's first impeachment trial, we heard from witnesses, who testified that Kash Patel was running a secret back-channel to Trump on Ukraine, even though he had no official responsibility related to the country.
[21:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FIONA HILL, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT: Initially, when I was thinking about it, but I had to search my mind, and the only Kash that I knew at the National Security Council was Kash Patel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Kash Patel also went on to play a role in the classified documents investigation. Trump, at one point, named him as a representative for access to Presidential records of my administration.
When Trump was later charged in that case, Patel was questioned by investigators, after he made claims, like this, on television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, FORMER TRUMP ADMIN. OFFICIAL: What I can tell you definitively is that President Trump was a transparency president.
President Trump, on multiple occasions, at the White House, declassified whole sets of documents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Patel eventually landed at the Pentagon, after a sweeping purge of defense officials.
The Washington Post reported that he pushed the conspiracy theory about an Italian military satellite, helping steal the 2020 election, which, of course, did not happen.
He also championed causes of January 6 rioters.
And he was in court, earlier this year, when Trump was convicted, in Manhattan, in his criminal hush money case.
Trump, at one point, considered putting Patel on a key intelligence post, the last time he was in office. He even floated as an option -- Patel as an option for CIA Director. It was Bill Barr, who also talked Trump out of giving him the number two job at the FBI.
Patel's loyalty has won repeated praise, though, from President-Elect Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: Kash Patel. Where's Kash?
Do you mind if I introduce two? Kash.
Kash Patel is here, one of our real warriors
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE) TRUMP: A real warrior.
Kash is fantastic.
TIM POOL, AMERICAN COMMENTATOR: Yes, absolutely.
TRUMP: He's an example of a good one.
Thank you, Kash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The devotion to Trump runs to the core of what he hopes to accomplish, in a second term.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: We got to put in all America patriots, top to bottom.
I thought it would be fun to go on a manhunt of government gangsters together.
Your civil liberties are taken away from you, and you're sent to prison.
We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Kash Patel has described the media as, quote, The most powerful enemy the U.S. has ever seen.
And as for those who served in Trump's administration, he is very clear about those that he would like to also go after.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: Brennan, Clapper, Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Barr, Haspel, Esper, what have you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: One of the names you heard there is my source tonight. Former FBI Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe.
Andrew, can we just start on Chris Wray in and of itself? We'll get to you in a moment, since you were mentioned here.
But on the 10-year term that the FBI Director gets, it's there to insulate the job from politics. Do you think, though, that Trump would have any hesitation about firing Chris Wray?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Not at all. Not at all. And to be clear, the 10-year term is there to insulate the Director from politics. And it's worked that way, for decades. But it's also there to protect the American public, from a Director staying longer than that, like we had with Hoover, which is obviously a terrible situation. So, it's got dual roles.
But, essentially, President after President have respected that apolitical nature of the FBI Director, until, of course, Donald Trump. And I don't think there's any reason to believe that Donald Trump will allow Christopher Wray to continue to serve out the rest of this term.
COLLINS: Well, and the push, it's not clear that Trump is totally receptive to this, that he's going to do this. I mean, it hasn't happened yet, I should note. That doesn't mean it won't happen.
Because I remember, the last time, when Trump was in office, there was this plan, where they were going to force out Gina Haspel, the CIA Director's deputy, believing that that would -- that would, in the end, make her leave, and then they could put Kash Patel in, in place, at the CIA, in one of those positions.
What would it look like if he is the FBI Director, in some realm?
MCCABE: Yes, I think that's really interesting, Kaitlan.
Like, I think those examples from the -- his prior administration, where he seems to have backed off a plan like this, likely because he felt like it would ultimately make him look bad in the long run. I think it's going to be really interesting to see if that continues into the second administration. My guess is probably not so much.
But in this case, moving forward with a nomination of Kash Patel as FBI Director, really will provoke, I think, a massive amount of backlash.
Now, you can make the argument that that's what he wants. He wants to disrupt. He wants to provoke the ire of people, like me, and others, who feel strongly about the institution, and what it takes to run it, faithfully and ethically and legally, none of which I think Kash Patel can do. But we'll have to see.
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I think, at the end of the day, Kash Patel is profoundly incapable of running the FBI. He is absolutely unqualified for that position. He's never run anything in his life that I'm aware of. He's never managed or led an organization of any type. His entire experience in the federal government is limited to about three years as a line attorney in DOJ headquarters.
The idea of him taking on the mantle of leader, essentially, of the American law enforcement community, running an organization of 37,000 people, 400 vocations in the United States, people serving all over the globe, in incredibly sensitive capacities, working with the intelligence community, and really standing as the representative of law enforcement in this country. The idea that Kash Patel would walk into a room of police chiefs, and sheriffs, and command any level of respect and recognition is absurd.
COLLINS: Yes. But I mean, a lack of conventional qualifications has clearly not stopped Trump in these other positions. We'll see what happens here.
MCCABE: That's right.
COLLINS: Andrew McCabe, thank you, as always.
MCCABE: Thanks.
COLLINS: Also tonight, Rudy Giuliani just had to turn over the keys to that 1980 Mercedes-Benz Convertible, the one we saw him riding in, in Florida, in recent weeks. He now has to turn it over to the two Georgia election workers that he defamed. You saw it at that polling place, in Palm Beach.
Also, the former New York City Mayor's luxury watch collection, and a diamond ring that he owned, have also been handed over to Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss. This is all, as they are beginning to collect on the nearly $150 million that he owes them.
His spokesperson posted this video, while he was packing the watches, yesterday, at a FedEx store in Florida. One of them is from Giuliani's grandfather. Two were gifts from European leaders, after September 11th.
The court-ordered deadline for Giuliani to surrender his most valuable possessions expire today. Of course, these women are still fighting in court for his $3.5 million Palm Beach Condo, and also four Yankees World Series rings. We'll keep you updated on that front.
But also tonight, we have new reporting about what one witness told the House Ethics Committee, about Matt Gaetz, Donald Trump's pick to be the Attorney General.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking this hour, as CNN has now learned that an attorney, who represents two of the women, who were witnesses in the House Ethics Committee probe into Matt Gaetz, confirmed that one of his clients alleges she saw the Congressman having sex with a minor.
Gaetz has previously denied any wrongdoing.
His spokesperson responded, tonight, to that comment, by pointing to the Justice Department's years-long investigation that ended without any charges. Saying in a statement to CNN, quote, "Merrick Garland's DOJ cleared Matt Gaetz and didn't charge him. Are you alleging" that "Garland is part of a cover-up?"
The question remains, tonight, though, about what happens to the House Ethic Committee -- House Ethics Committee's investigation, and whether or not its report will be released, now that Gaetz is no longer a member of Congress.
Joining me now tonight:
Julie Roginsky, founder of Lift Our Voices, the non-profit which advocates for survivors of sexual assault and harassment.
And Elie Honig, who's the former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York.
Elie, DOJ did decline to pursue charges. And the question that Speaker Johnson was saying today, after saying initially, they don't get involved in this, and then saying today, he would advocate for no release, was, he's not a member of Congress anymore, so why would this get released?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: So, it's up to Congress whether they release that report. There's nothing particularly privileged about the report. It's just a matter of what Congress wants to do.
We've actually seen them change the rules. For example, you probably remember, a few years ago, Congress voted to release Donald Trump's tax returns. Now, ordinarily, those don't get released. But they took a vote, and that's how it came out.
But really important to know, whether or not that document, the actual House Ethics report gets released, the facts that are contained therein are open game, as we're seeing now with this new reporting. People who were interviewed, witnesses, lawyers, they're free to come forward. And if Matt Gaetz's nomination moves forward? I don't know about all of this. But a lot of this could well come out, and it's going to cause him problems upon problems.
COLLINS: But you don't know that the report itself would come out. You're just saying that the people, who are part of it, could come forward of their own volition?
HONIG: Exactly. So, the actual report itself, that's just up to the House.
I should say one thing, also just about the denial from Gaetz's attorney that you just showed. It is true, DOJ chose not to charge him. But the attorney used the word, cleared. Said Merrick Garland, cleared Matt Gaetz. That is not true.
DOJ -- all the time, as a prosecutor, you will have situations where you maybe have no evidence, maybe some evidence, maybe something more than some evidence, but you choose not to charge. So the fact that DOJ chose not to charge him does not mean they cleared him. There's a difference there.
COLLINS: Right. But it says that they didn't go anywhere with it, didn't feel like they could--
HONIG: They didn't charge him.
COLLINS: --prosecute that case.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Julie, when we were talking about just the Cabinet selection overall, and what we're seeing play out here. We started this hour with our new reporting, on Pete Hegseth, who is Trump's pick to run the Pentagon.
And I know you know Hegseth, personally. You worked at Fox with him, previously. I wonder what you make of the allegation against him. Which I should note, he's also denying. He has not been charged in this situation. But it's something that's a real concern, from what I've heard to Trump's senior staff on his campaign team.
JULIE ROGINSKY, CO-FOUNDER, LIFT OUR VOICES, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, look, whether we know what happened with Pete Hegseth, or whether we know what happened with Matt Gaetz or not, I'll tell you who does know. And that's America's adversaries.
[21:35:00]
They obviously don't have to rely on the House investigatory powers to find out what's going on. They have assets all over the place, and intelligence assets, to find out everything about our most high- ranking top-level administration officials. Both of whom, Pete Hegseth and Matt Gaetz would be.
And that's something that should be very troubling, because it becomes an intelligence issue, and it becomes something that our own enemies will have feel to exploiting, if there's any iota of truth in.
I did know Pete. I did work with him at Fox. I personally, obviously, never saw that side of him.
But if it exists, despite his denials, and despite Matt Gaetz's denials, it's not that we're going to find out. It's that they will find out. And they will be compromised, and what the Russians call Kompromat, and that is actually a really huge national security risk, is something that I think all of us should be worried about, having people at the very highest levels, with top-secret security clearance, having potentially this kind of scandal hanging over their heads that they don't want anybody to know about.
COLLINS: Yes, well, on this front, Elie, I mean, when you look at this, in the sense of the FBI background checks that she mentioned there that are not happening. I mean, that is something that was a major issue, actually, during the Trump first term.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Because Trump can supersede that. He can essentially wave any of those issues that were red flags or issues. This was happened with his staff secretary, a very important position, the person who handles key documents that are going in and out of the office, when he was in office the first time, who had stuff that came out that was essentially ignored, or not paid enough attention to. HONIG: Yes, there is no statute, there is no hard law, saying, Thou shall be subject to a background check. But it exists for such crucial reasons.
Like Julie said, first of all, there's a national security, there's an Intel -- counter-Intel risk, if you don't do background checks.
Second of all, just politically, you have no idea what's going to come up. I mean, here we see allegations about Pete Hegseth, about Matt Gaetz, coming up, almost every few hours. And normally, what you're supposed to do is vet first, nominate later.
But these background checks. I went through a background check, when I was a baby prosecutor. I was 29-years-old. They want to know everything about your finances, your family, drug use, alcohol, do you owe money? And it's extensive.
And to think that someone who could become the Attorney General, or the head of the Department of Defense, wouldn't go through that, is an enormous risk to take with America's security.
COLLINS: Yes, Julie makes a good point there, of what that could mean, especially for someone who's the head of the Pentagon.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Elie Honig. Julie Roginsky. Great to have you both here tonight.
Coming up. Someone who had a front-row seat, the first time Trump was in office, including working with Stephen Miller, and his calls to the Department of Homeland Security. We're going to have an inside source here next, with her thoughts on what round two could look Like.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President-Elect Donald Trump says he only wants the best people.
He tapped Army veteran and Fox News host, Pete Hegseth, for Defense Secretary. Remember, eight years ago, he had first chosen retired four-star General James Mattis.
South Dakota governor, Kristi Noem, has been named for Homeland Security. Eight years ago, for that position, he had chosen retired Marine Corps General John Kelly.
My inside source had a front-row seat, working in the first Trump administration, under John Kelly. The former Deputy Chief of Staff for the Department of Homeland Security, Elizabeth Neumann, joins me now.
And it's great to have you here, Elizabeth.
Because you were there for three years. And Trump went into it, the last time, with this outlook that he didn't know Washington, like he knows it now. What do you think will be different this time around?
ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER ASSISTANT HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Well, I can tell you some of what will definitely be the same, which is the chaos. But that chaos will be not managed as well.
I have been impressed with Susie Wiles. She does run a tight ship, which is quite impressive. But there's only so much discipline you can bring to the chaos style that Donald Trump loves. He enjoys causing his own people to fight amongst each other.
He enjoys making a decision, after the policy process, the interagency has worked on something for months, and then somebody else calls him, often a TV host, and they talk him out of the decision, and you find out about that through a tweet. And then you spend hours trying to figure out, Is this now the U.S. government position on this really important national security issue that we spent months on? It is going to be chaos.
And what is really different when you compare the previous term to this term is that at least in the first term, you had credentialed subject-matter expert, experienced people, who were at least at the helm of those cabinet agencies, and they were strategic enough to figure out how to -- how, in the most important circumstances, convince Trump to make the right decision.
Now, he's hired people who like to go on Fox News, and talk.
COLLINS: Yes.
NEUMANN: And they don't care about governing, and they don't have the experience. It's going to be a very, very different type of chaos, this time around.
COLLINS: Well, speaking -- speaking for Trump has always been a difficulty. And he's always liked people, who go out on television, and speak on his behalf.
But we talk about his cabinet a lot, and whether or not they can get confirmed. Let's say they all get confirmed, and they're all in position. What from your view, is it like to be, either in Trump's cabinet, or working directly for someone in his cabinet?
NEUMANN: It's funny. Even in the first term, there were a lot of people that came in, thinking that they could fix him or constrain him.
[21:45:00]
I do think the Cabinet members that are coming in are probably a little bit more clear-eyed that he doesn't want to be fixed or controlled. That there's still going to be a habit.
You think of some of these personalities that are used to, whether they're governors, or senators, congressmen, they're used to being the principal. They're used to being the A-list character in their own show. Now, they're going to need to be the backbencher. Now, they're going to not get to set their own schedule. You're going to end up in a scenario, where you think your agenda is one thing for the day. And then, it all gets blown up, when you get a call from Trump. And now, you have to run to the White House and fix something that he wants you to fix.
So, the chaos, like, trickles down to the cabinet secretaries themselves, and the way that they get to run their own agenda, or run -- even run their own daily calendars. It is -- it is quite--
COLLINS: Yes.
NEUMANN: It's quite an experience. And for those who didn't experience the first time, I think they're in for a bit of a rude awakening.
COLLINS: Well, and for the Department of Homeland Security, where you served, I mean, it saw so much turmoil, when Trump was there, in terms of so many different leaders, only two of them were ever Senate- confirmed. It was a lot of acting secretaries, in charge of such an important and sprawling agency.
I wonder, operating there with General John Kelly running it, what you make of South Dakota governor Kristi Noem being named to that position, this time around?
NEUMANN: It really seems like she's a figurehead to go on TV, so that Stephen Miller and Tom Homan can run everything. And of course, their primary focus is immigration. And you can make a strong argument that the American people voted for that.
The problem is that the Department of Homeland Security has way more missions than immigration. Cybersecurity, natural disaster through FEMA, Secret Service, which is an agency in turmoil and definitely needs to be addressed.
And so, it's a little concerning for the agency itself that you have somebody coming in that really knows nothing about Homeland Security, and hasn't had that much experience, actually. I know she's a governor of a state. But it's a relatively small state. Hasn't been in office for that long. So, I'm a little concerned for the agency itself that they won't have the kind of leader that they deserve.
COLLINS: Yes, a lot of questions about what it's going to look like. We'll see who gets confirmed, and who ends up where.
Elizabeth Neumann, thank you for your perspective tonight.
NEUMANN: Thanks for having me, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Tonight, it also looks like the world's richest man is asking people to work at his new government, not really a department, it's outside of government, wants them to work there for free. The question is, what it's going to look like, in terms of reducing bureaucracy. Elon Musk says he is only hiring super high-IQ candidates.
Kara Swisher knows how, better than anyone almost, how Elon Musk runs his companies. We'll talk to her next.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Donald Trump's Department of Government Efficiency is already hiring. And the job description that it lays out is a pretty remarkable ask.
DOGE, what it is being called, for short, posted on X, quote, "We need super high-IQ small-government revolutionaries willing to work 80+ hours per week on unglamorous cost-cutting... Elon & Vivek will review the" top 1 percent of the "applicants," of course, referencing Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, who were named to run this outside-of- government group by President-Elect Trump.
Musk added that it will be unpaid, writing, quote, "Indeed, this will be tedious work, make lots of enemies & compensation is zero. What a great deal."
My source tonight is Kara Swisher, who has covered Elon Musk, in- depth, for the past two decades, and has interviewed him personally many times.
Kara, I assume that you are not signing up for this endeavor.
KARA SWISHER, AMERICAN JOURNALIST: No.
COLLINS: But you do obviously--
SWISHER: No.
COLLINS: You know a lot about how Elon runs his businesses. What do you make of this proposal?
SWISHER: No, it's chaos. I think this is -- sorry, I have a bad voice. But -- excuse me. I think it's probably just a stunt.
I mean, there's been these commissions before, in presidency after presidency. The GRACE Commission, if you recall, in Reagan administration, where they were going to drain the swamp. And the swamp just got bigger. Under Trump, the swamp got bigger.
And so, the question is, is it just a lot of hand-waving and finding the $600 toilet or the $20,000 wrench, and then putting them online, and mocking them, and then doing nothing about it.
They'll make -- he does this a lot. He did this with the Twitter Files, which yielded almost nothing, in fact, nothing, and other things. And so, he likes to do it this way, where he's going to be transparent, and show everybody -- you know, show everybody what he's done.
But in the end, it has to be passed by Congress, these cuts. And Congress isn't going to cut itself, and especially in their districts.
COLLINS: So, you think it's essentially, we get to the end of this -- I think the expiring date is 2026, that we get halfway through 2026--
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: --and there's not really -- there's not this massive cut that has happened.
SWISHER: Not the 2-point -- what was it, $3 billion that he said he was going to cut? Elon Musk just off the top of his head, which I'm certain he made up, said that off the top, this is going to cut it.
Are you kidding me? That's crazy.
And I think there's a lot of people -- like, I like the idea of looking for waste in government--
COLLINS: That's right.
SWISHER: --and figuring out ways to be innovative. But this is kind of just a gameshow, as far as I can tell. And this idea that people will work for free. How do you vet them? How can they look at things?
[21:55:00]
Like, the whole thing seems chaotic, which just sounds like an Elon Musk experience at some of his companies. Some of them are very well- run, usually by other people, like Gwynne Shotwell at SpaceX, does a terrific job, running that operation. But he's got behind-the-scenes people, like that, that you don't see. While, he acts like the wizard in front of it all.
COLLINS: Well--
SWISHER: And so.
COLLINS: That's a great point, because, he also notes that he is not being paid here. And he--
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: The question, though, that I had was about--
SWISHER: Oh, he's--
COLLINS: --conflicts of interest.
SWISHER: --he's--
COLLINS: Because he--
SWISHER: He's being paid. He's being paid.
COLLINS: Yes.
SWISHER: The value of all his companies has gone up substantively since -- since he's become Trump's best buddy. The value of Tesla has, I think, $255 billion on no fundamentals. Nothing's changed. But it's because he's the friend of -- he's got -- he's doubled the value of xAI, because people are attracted to, because they think he's not going to be hindered by regulation. SpaceX, $250 billion valuation. That is a very good company. But that's a high valuation for this company.
So everybody thinks he's going to have smooth-sailing with Trump. So, he's been paid already, many times over.
COLLINS: Well, and I also wondered about conflicts of interest, just because SpaceX does have so many federal contracts.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: But also, there's a lot of lawsuits by federal agencies into his companies--
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: --that are underway.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, how does that factor into all this?
SWISHER: I guess he'll just cut their jobs. I don't know. It's craziness.
I think, the thing is, it's always good to have these commissions. I wish I could stress that over and over again. And there is not nearly enough innovation in government. But that's why the private sector exists, for innovation.
And we should do a lot more public-private partnerships, and rely on the -- rely on private companies, which are often more innovative, including SpaceX, and then have these great partnerships, where we all can improve.
Instead, this looks like a, you know, it looks like crony capitalism, what happening here? And I don't think leaders like this should be running these programs. The conflict of interest is huge. But Donald Trump doesn't care. You know this from covering, he doesn't care. He likes the showmanship of it.
And that's a lot of what it is, is this -- you know, we're going to have a show every day, talking about government waste. I don't know. I'm not going to tune in. But maybe someone will.
COLLINS: What do you -- on the Trump-Musk relationship?
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: What's your expectation for where that goes?
SWISHER: I have said many times that it's going to fall apart, at some point. Elon loves the attention. And guess who loves attention more than Elon Musk, is Donald Trump. And so, at some point, a lot of the hand-waving is going to probably irritate him.
But at this point, it's good for Trump to have this around. And it's a great, you know, it's a -- he's almost like a prop that he brings out and shows, Look, I have the world's richest man staying at Mar-a-Lago.
So, we'll see. I don't -- I don't think they'll get along in the end.
COLLINS: We shall see indeed.
Kara Swisher, feel better, and thank you for coming on.
SWISHER: Thank you. Sorry about my voice.
COLLINS: It's OK. We still like to hear from you.
SWISHER: Thank you.
COLLINS: Before we go tonight, I do want to take a moment to highlight something that is very special here, at CNN.
The 8th Annual Charity Auction that is underway right now, organized in part by our friend, Jake Tapper. It's for Homes For Our Troops, which is a very special organization. All the money that they raise helps build specially-adapted custom homes for severely-wounded 9/11- post veterans.
I can't think of a better cause, and I would love for you to donate to Zoom with me, in order to help out this group that does so much. Bidding is open, right now, for a few more days. You can check out all the items. They have a lot of amazing ones. It's on ebay.com/hfot. I've also posted it on Twitter and on Instagram. This auction is open until next Thursday, November 21st. I hope you'll join us.
Also, this Sunday, here on CNN, the Original Series, "How It Really Happened," is going to take us back to the fall of 1982. That was when seven people, in the Chicago area, died under seriously -- under mysterious circumstances.
And at first, doctors were at a loss for an explanation. But they soon discovered a sinister connection. All the victims had recently taken cyanide-laced Tylenol capsules.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HELEN JENSEN, RETIRED ARLINGTON HEIGHTS VILLAGE NURSE: I went over to the hospital, immediately. I saw Theresa Janus, that was Adam's wife, standing to the side. She told me what had happened.
After Adam died, the family had gathered to discuss the funeral. And the brother, Stanley, had back pain, chronic back pain. So, he asked his wife to go get him a couple of Tylenol. And then, a few minutes later, she took two Tylenol, and he went down, and then she went down. Both collapsed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard Helen Jensen interviewing these people, and I know they all took Tylenol.
JENSEN: I felt very strongly that I had to go and look at that house. And two police officers and I went out, and looked through the house.
[22:00:00]
I went into the bathroom, and found a bottle of Tylenol. And then, I took it out to the kitchen, and emptied the container, and counted the pills. And there were six pills missing. And there were three people dead. And I said, It has to be the Tylenol, something's wrong with the Tylenol.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Tune into "How It Really Happened," this Sunday, 09:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, right here, on CNN.
Thank you so much, for joining us, tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
