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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Biden Pardons Son Hunter Despite Repeated Claims He Wouldn't; Trump Taps Fierce Loyalist Kash Patel For FBI Director; Hegseth Meets With GOP Senators Amid New Allegations. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 02, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): --confident they can hold out in Kursk, less confident of how long the West expects them to.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PATON WALSH: Anderson, you heard about North Korean troops there. Well, there have been suggestions that have, in fact, been integrated into Russian units. And indeed, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said at the weekend that some have been killed in the fighting.
Meanwhile, today, the German Chancellor, Olaf Scholz, in Kyiv. He's been criticized for a phone call to Vladimir Putin, some weeks ago, ending the Kremlin head's isolation. But here in Kyiv, he promised more air defense that Ukraine so urgently needs.
Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Nick Paton Walsh, thanks very much.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.
We are live from the center of the political universe near the President-elect's Mar-a-Lago Club, where there are questions tonight about how Donald Trump will utilize the political gift that he was just given by President Biden.
I'm Kaitlan Collins, live from West Palm Beach, Florida. And this is THE SOURCE.
With 50 days left in his presidency, Joe Biden just set off a political timebomb before leaving for Africa today, and leaving his party behind to deal with the blast radius. Tonight, there are growing questions from some, and growing concerns from others, about how President-elect Donald Trump will use Biden's pardon, of his son Hunter, to his advantage.
Rarely, if ever, have we heard from both Biden and Trump on the same page about anything. But now, it's in print. Their mutual anger at the Justice Department, as evidenced in Biden's announcement that came down, late last night, clearing his son of his convictions on gun and tax charges.
Where Biden said, and I'm quoting him now, "I have watched my son being selectively, and unfairly, prosecuted... The charges in his cases came about only after several of my political opponents in Congress instigated them to attack me and oppose my election... raw politics has infected this process and it led to a miscarriage of justice."
Now, following a statement like that that at times, sounded like something Trump himself could have posted on Truth Social, the Special Counsel who prosecuted Hunter Biden responded saying, quote, there has "Never been any evidence of vindictive or selective prosecution in this case."
Now, regardless of where you view those statements, by pardoning his son, who Biden was seen with this weekend, I should note, over Thanksgiving, some are arguing that he's undercut his own longtime claims that no one is above the law, and his own pledges to restore independence to the Justice Department.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: One of the things I was committed to do, when I ran, was re-establish the reputation and integrity of the Justice Department. It has become the most -- it was corrupted under the last administration.
Did not, have not, and will not pick up the phone and call the Attorney General and tell him what he should or should not do in terms of who he should prosecute.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The most glaring contradiction, of course, is that Biden himself forcefully denied that he would ever do what he just did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MUIR, ANCHOR AND MANAGING EDITOR, ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT WITH DAVID MUIR: Will you accept the jury's outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is?
BIDEN: Yes.
MUIR: And have you ruled out a pardon for your son? BIDEN: Yes.
I said I'd abide by the jury decision. And I will do that. And I will not pardon him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, despite those public denials, we're hearing from several people close to the President, who say, privately they thought that this would happen ultimately. With one former senior White House official who worked for Biden telling CNN, it was because they know how much he worries about his son, Hunter.
My sources tonight to start us off, are:
Former Obama administration official, Van Jones.
Former Trump White House communications director, Alyssa Farah Griffin.
And CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, and former federal prosecutor himself, Elie Honig.
And Elie, given that, you wrote that Biden is making history here, but not in a good way. And as a former prosecutor, what was your view of what Biden said in that statement there, saying that this amounted to a miscarriage of justice?
ELIE HONIG, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Kaitlan, I think that's wild, unfounded hyperbole by President Biden there.
Now look, on the one hand, I do think there are valid criticisms that could be made of the Hunter Biden prosecution, especially on the gun case. I think that case was overcharged, and I think the outcome was unjust.
But there is a chasm, there is an enormous gulf between saying that a case was overcharged, and saying that it's a miscarriage of justice or that it's a political vendetta. There is zero evidence to support that.
And if we look at the relevant players here. David Weiss, he was nominated as U.S. attorney by Donald Trump, with enthusiastic support of both of Delaware's Democratic U.S. senators. He was then kept in office by Joe Biden himself. Joe Biden's Attorney General Merrick Garland is the one who named David Weiss, Special Counsel.
[21:05:00]
And so, I think to go back and second-guess this, and say it's such a miscarriage of justice that it requires a pardon, I think, is completely out of step with reality.
COLLINS: Well, and Van, I mean, I just am curious for your perspective, because you have long time been a leader for -- in criminal justice reform. You've led groups, you founded organizations that help people get pardons. So when you view this, and what Biden said in his decision to pardon Hunter Biden, what do you make of it?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, look, I'm not surprised, and I'm willing to give Biden a pass, because his son is going to be sitting in federal prison, while Trump is pardoning -- pardoning insurrectionists and all kind of stuff. At some point, this stuff just becomes very human.
My criticism of President Biden is different. He's used the power of the pardon more sparingly, for people who are not his son than you would expect from a Democratic president. There have been a -- there's been a lot of frustration in the criminal justice community that a lot more people could use that kind of relief.
In this case, look, he's an elderly guy. He's got to sense there are a lot of trouble. If he wants to do himself a solid, on the way out the door, I'll let other people scream about that.
But what about everybody else, who's sitting there with actual miscarriages of justice, who've had no relief in the Biden administration? That's a bigger problem to me.
COLLINS: Well, yes, Van, I mean, on that point, if you're -- if the point is about concerns that Trump is coming into office, and the people he's appointing might target Hunter Biden even further than this, even though he was found guilty by a jury of his peers, I should note? Why not pardon Andrew McCabe and Gina Haspel and--
JONES: Sure.
COLLINS: --Mark Esper, and all these people that are on their target list, if you say that that's why -- that that's the motivation here.
JONES: Yes, I mean -- I mean, we've gone through this, down this rabbit hole now, where allegations of the justice system being politicized or being thrown around on both sides. I think it's bad for the country. I do think there should be a real process to pardon people. I think the Biden administration has been relaxed on that.
But if you're going to do it, don't just do it for your son. There are a lot of people that the Trump administration might go after. Protect them. And there are a lot of just everyday people, who have sitting there, been begging for relief for years and years. If you're going to do it, don't just do it for your son. There are a lot of American sons and daughters who could use the same kind of relief.
COLLINS: Alyssa, I was covering President Biden when he came into office, and on this notion that he wanted to restore norms, and defend the Justice Department against attacks from Trump, and that this level of independence.
But when he's saying that his son's pardon was politically motivated, as he's arguing, I mean, how do you expect Republicans to use this, to defend their own actions now? ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, Joe Biden handed Donald Trump and Republicans political gold.
With this statement specifically -- listen, I think every one of us knew that Biden was ultimately going to pardon Hunter. I don't know why he repeatedly lied on the record, and said otherwise, and didn't just give himself some leeway, and say he was considering all options, or he hadn't ruled it out. He is on the record, as is the White House press secretary, multiple times, saying he wouldn't do this.
But the language he chose that you highlighted in the open? That is detrimental at a moment when trust at the Department of Justice is so incredibly low, in part because Donald Trump has raised real doubts in the institution.
But now, Joe Biden seems to be echoing his language when in reality, whether these charges would have been brought or not, this was not a result of a political prosecution within the DOJ.
It seems like they're trying to message Well, Trump allies would have come after Hunter if he didn't have this blanket pardon, while leaving office. Perhaps FBI Director Kash Patel would have gone after him.
But that's not what his language is saying. His language is talking about the process that Hunter Biden went through.
I think for somebody, who kind of ran on this morally superior, it's about the norms and the trust in our institutions? I think it was incredibly disappointing. And I think that there are a lot of people, who could face targeting, in the next administration, who are not protected by any actions that Joe Biden is taking, but his son is.
COLLINS: I mean, Alyssa, you're on Kash Patel's list of people that he has put at the back of his book. I don't know if you know that. But I was reading through it earlier.
We'll talk about Kash Patel in a moment.
But Elie, to Alyssa's point about what Biden said about this, also looking at the pardon itself, the scope is huge. I mean, with the exception of Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon, have you ever seen a pardon for crimes that were not actually, or offenses, that were not actually charged?
HONIG: No, this is now a list of two that I'm sure Joe Biden doesn't want any part of, and Hunter Biden doesn't want any part of, which is this pardon and the Nixon pardon. Both of them were blanket pardons. They didn't just say, I hereby issue a pardon in the case of United States versus Hunter Biden. But all conduct dating back to a certain set point in time. And so, the breadth of this is historic.
[21:10:00]
And Kaitlan, I should add another list that Joe Biden is now on, that I'm sure he doesn't want to be on, is a list of pardons who have issued -- a list of presidents who have issued pardons to family members.
He joins Bill Clinton, who pardoned his half-brother, Roger Clinton.
He joins Donald Trump who pardoned Charles Kushner. And if that name sounds familiar, yes, the very same Charles Kushner, who's now being nominated as Ambassador to France.
But there's a difference. In those two cases, Roger Clinton and Charles Kushner, they had finished serving their sentences, and later were pardoned, mostly as symbolic acts. Here, Hunter Biden is being spared from serving his almost certain prison sentences. So, in a sense, this pardon from Joe Biden is different and worse than those previous ones we've seen.
COLLINS: Well, and Van, my question here is how Trump uses this, not just for pardons. I mean, we know, he responded saying, Does this now count for the J6 hostages, as he refers to them? A lot of them have been convicted of their crimes.
But look at what Tom Cotton tweeted saying, "Most Americans can sympathize with a father's decision to pardon his son, even if they disagree." He talked about how Biden said repeatedly, he wouldn't do it. But then, he said, "Democrats can spare us the lectures about the rule of law when, say, President Trump nominates Pam Bondi and Kash Patel to clean up this corruption."
I mean, does that change the Senate confirmation? Does it make some Senate Republicans maybe say, Actually, maybe I will confirm them now?
JONES: Well, look, Tom Cotton's going to throw rocks when he can.
This isn't about the Department of Justice corruption. This is just about somebody not liking how the power of the pardon that's being used. That's an executive function out of the White House, primarily so.
But look, the Republicans will make hay of this. And that is a calculation that President Biden obviously made. And I guess he thinks, after 50 years, half a century of service to this country, four years as president, and his economy now shows a successful presidency, getting shown the door by his own party, he's going to take his son with him. And I don't think -- at the end of the day, nobody can be really mad about that.
COLLINS: So, Van, you -- you're fine -- you said you give him a pass. But is your only issue with it--
JONES: Yes.
COLLINS: --that he didn't pardon more people?
JONES: Look, the self-righteous memo, he could have kept that. The -- all the on-the-record stuff that he had himself and his team do, he could have kept all that. He could have just brought his son home, and spared us the lecture, and spared us the smearing of the Department of Justice. But bringing his -- bringing his son home, nobody is surprised. You would do the same thing. Federal prison is no joke. And I just think he could have spared all the nonsense and just done it.
But my concern is, what about the other sons and daughters that are facing real threats from Donald Trump, and they're sitting in federal prison and deserve relief that have not gotten relief from this administration. Those are people who need to be heard from -- who need to be given relief now.
COLLINS: It's a good point. Thank you all for being here tonight.
Up next. I'm going to have more on that controversial pardon. We're going to speak to a Democratic senator for his thoughts on Biden's latest move.
Plus, we're going to take an up-close look at Trump's pick to lead the FBI, the one I just mentioned there, Kash Patel, and who he's been threatening to go after on day one, if he is ultimately confirmed.
And this comes as Trump's Defense secretary pick, Pete Hegseth, was back on Capitol Hill today. You see him here. We'll tell you what he said, when asked about new misconduct allegations.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Republican senators are keeping their cards close, when it comes to President-elect Trump's controversial pick to lead the FBI.
While he was certainly in the headlines in the first Trump administration, Kash Patel is certainly not a household name. He has a lot of thoughts, though, about the place that Trump has now picked him to lead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, TRUMP'S PICK FOR FBI DIRECTOR: I'd shut down the FBI Hoover building on day one, and reopen it the next day as a museum of the Deep State. And I'd take the 7,000 employees that work in that building, and send them across America to chase down criminals.
You go to D.C., and you remove all these positions, right? And you start enacting measures, not of retribution, but of legal consequence.
We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media, who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections, we're going to come after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That is Kash Patel. You can see why Donald Trump was attracted to him like a magnet, at times. Trump and Patel have shared this mistrust of what they often refer to as the Deep State, and a view that they want to blow it up from the inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: I call these guys, government gangsters. These guys that I'm talking about, Chris Wray, Merrick Garland, Lloyd Austin, Mayorkas, everybody that is destroying what Donald Trump built.
You can never bend the knee to these government gangsters.
Going to be a cataclysmic implosion in Washington, D.C., the likes that we have not seen, and the Deep State wants it sunk, cannot be raised.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, there's a lot to unpack there.
And you heard Kash Patel mention Chris Wray. He already is the FBI director, who was appointed by Trump after he fired the last FBI director, James Comey. And Chris Wray still has three years left in his 10-year term.
My source tonight is John Pistole, who served as the Deputy Director of the FBI from 2004 to 2010.
And it's great to have you back.
Because Bill Barr was once quoted as saying that Kash Patel, when this was a rumor, during Trump round one, that he would become Deputy Director of the FBI, quote, Over my dead body.
[21:20:00]
And I just wonder, now that Trump has moved to make him the actual Director, what your reaction was to that news?
JOHN PISTOLE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FORMER TSA ADMINISTRATOR: Well, thanks, Kaitlan.
I think one of the key questions that anybody should have, particularly the President and the Senate, which has the advice and consent function and responsibility, is, is he, or any candidate, qualified for the office for which he's being nominated. And I think we confront it from several different aspects.
One, from President's perspective, and of course, President is given broad discretion, and needs people who are loyal to him. But the question is, is it loyalty over qualifications? And then is it -- is he qualified from the perspective of the Senate, which has their role, of course? And then, is he qualified from the perspective of the American people.
And I think the issue there is, if he comes in and tears down, destroys whatever it might be, the FBI headquarters and dispersing and all those things? What is the impact, for example, on national security? Will foreign law enforcement and intelligence agencies be reluctant to share information with the FBI, or with the U.S. government, because they're concerned that that information would be politicized.
And then, I think it's a question of, is he qualified to lead the men and women of the FBI? For example, if he carries out what he says with the men and women of the FBI, 36 -- 37,000 men and women, if they're given an order to investigate political enemies of the President, and there's no predicate for that, there's no legal basis for that? Then those agents, analysts, everybody who's working for the FBI, they don't have immunity, like the President does.
And so, if they violate somebody's civil liberties or privacy, they subject themselves to civil and criminal possible penalties. And without that immunity that the President has, then, they are at risk--
COLLINS: Yes.
PISTOLE: --not only in terms of their exposure, but the cost and everything going through that. So, lot of issues to be unpacked there.
COLLINS: Well, you raised a great point there. And what does that look like? Let's say Kash Patel gets confirmed, and that he is the FBI director. If he does direct them to investigate people, because Trump doesn't like them, or views them as his political opponents, is there a check on the FBI director? Or if they're given orders from him, how does that work?
PISTOLE: Yes, so if the FBI director gives an order to an agent that would go through the chain of command? Of course, that chain of command then has decisions to make whether they carry out what they may perceive as an illegal order.
And because every man and woman of the FBI take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, they would then be put in that position of, do they carry that out, knowing they possibly violate the law, and risk exposure themselves? Or do they carry it out and -- or not carry it out, then risk being fired because they weren't, quote, Loyal. And I think there might be some real soul-searching going on.
And the question then becomes, is the U.S. at greater risk, both national security, cyber security, spying, the criminal threats, all those things that the FBI stands up for, protecting the men and women of the U.S. every day--
COLLINS: Yes.
PISTOLE: --because of those risks and not knowing.
And so, it's easy to say, Let's go and blow everything up. But you need to have a solution. And that's not a solution, so.
COLLINS: Yes. I think he would also be the first FBI director who had his own merch line, children's books, diet supplements, T-shirts.
John, we'll talk about that much more in the future. Thank you for your expertise on this.
And also joining me is Trump's former Defense secretary, Mark Esper, who worked in the administration, the last time, when Kash Patel was there.
And Secretary Esper, it's great to have you.
Because I was listening to a podcast that Kash Patel did a few months ago, and he actually mentioned you by name. This is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: I think what so many of these guys did -- whether it's Brennan, Clapper, Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Barr, Haspel, Esper, what have you -- I think there's a lot of rule- and law-breaking. And I don't know that it ever gets to the level of treason singularly with any of them. But what you have is a buildup of so many actions by the Deep State that it becomes borderline treasonous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, I guess the good news is that he does not think you singularly committed treason.
But I just -- hearing that, what is your reaction to the idea that he could become FBI director?
[21:25:00]
MARK ESPER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER TRUMP: Well, first of all, he's talked about names before. So, I join dozens of others, I guess.
And he's also spoken about it in terms of wide swaths of the country. The media, the government, Wall Street, Corporate America, departments of the United States government that he intends to go after.
So I think this is, it's very disturbing. It's things that will, if he makes his way to a confirmation hearing, that I think will be top of mind for senators as they question him about what does he mean by this. When he talks about revenge or retribution, who does he intend to go about, go after and why? And what will be his vision for the FBI?
I mean, it raises a lot of questions about the political -- further politicization, I guess, if you talk to both Donald Trump, and Joe Biden now, of the Department of Justice and the FBI.
COLLINS: Yes. And the question not just into what he wants to do. I also was reading where other colleagues, former colleagues of yours, the former Deputy National Security Advisor, said they just don't think he's qualified for this job, much less from what he wants to do.
And actually, he was accused of nearly botching a high-stakes hostage rescue, when he was accused of breaking protocol, inserting himself into this effort by SEAL Team Six, to rescue an American who was being held in Nigeria, when Trump was in office, the last time.
You were directly involved in that. Can you just walk us through what happened, and Kash Patel's involvement?
ESPER: Yes, I describe it in detail in my memoir. This is, I think, October 2020, when we were trying to rescue American in West Africa, who had been captured by, we believe, terrorists, and whose life was in danger.
So, we sent our special operators abroad to rescue that person. They were in the air. We launched them -- I had launched them on the premise that we had airspace clearance into that country to conduct the operation. It was information given by, allegedly, Kash Patel to Tony Tata, who was -- worked for me in OSD policy.
And we found out hours later, as we were about to cross into that territory that it was not true, that the State Department not got that clearance. And so, for a moment in time there, at least an hour, it jeopardized the mission. And if we weren't able to pull it off, could have jeopardized the welfare of that American on the ground.
It's one of those things that the likes of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo and I, never resolved as to what actually happened, because events moved on. The raid was quite successful due to the skill and professionalism of our special operators. But it's one of those moments out there that demanded going back and questioning what happened at the time.
COLLINS: Do you believe it could have potentially put the SEAL Team Six members in danger?
ESPER: It could have certainly risked the mission, forced us to call it off. And that, by calling it off, you would have delayed the rescue of the American, and that could have put that American in jeopardy, because we were concerned that he might have been killed, he might have been passed off to another terrorist group, so forth and so on.
They're all hypotheticals now. And fortunately, it came off well. But it was, again, something I describe in detail in my book that caused a lot of concern, a lot of alarm at the time.
COLLINS: Yes, I can see why.
Secretary Esper, as always, thank you for your time.
ESPER: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: My next source tonight is a Democrat on Capitol Hill, who has a lot of thoughts on President Biden's decision to pardon his son. Well, as another senator is suggesting that Biden should also pardon Donald Trump.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: President Biden is facing bipartisan backlash, tonight, on his decision to pardon his son, Hunter Biden, after saying forcefully, for months, that he would respect the legal process and wouldn't do so.
Democratic senator Mark Warner told CNN that he was disappointed by the move, as his colleague Maggie Hassan of New Hampshire says that she wishes he had kept his word.
And tonight, another senator who has known Biden for decades, Joe Manchin, suggested as a solution to balance out his pardon for his son, this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (I-WV): What I would have done differently, and my recommendation as a counsel would have been, why don't you go ahead and pardon Donald Trump for all his charges and make it, you know, it had been -- would have gone down a lot -- lot more balanced, if you will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source on the Hill tonight is Democratic senator, Michael Bennet of Colorado.
And Senator, it's great to have you here. Because you weighed in on Biden's decision, and you said that it, in your view, it put the personal interest ahead of duty, and that it further eroded Americans' faith that the justice system is fair and equal for all.
What do you think that this move means for President Biden's legacy?
SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-CO): Well, I think it's not going to help. And I believe that he has run his campaigns, and governed, saying that he was helping to try to rescue our democracy from the clutches of Donald Trump, which is a very worthy thing we should be trying to do.
But when you turn around after you say, month after month after month, you're not going to pardon your son, and then you do pardon him, putting the personal ahead of your responsibilities to the American people? It just gives the American people a sense that there's one system for the rich and powerful, and another system for everybody else, which is one of the reasons why we haven't been able to keep Donald Trump from coming back here, again for a second term. It's in that terrible context that this decision was made by the President.
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: Do you believe it basically means Democrats lose the moral high ground on this?
BENNET: I think it's very costly. With respect to that. We have to get out of a politics that says that when a Republican president is elected, the Justice Department is going to do their work. With a Democratic President elected, the Justice Department is going to do their work. That is not how this is all supposed to work in a country that's committed to the rule of law, committed to democracy.
The Justice Department is supposed to stand for the American people, and also provide justice whether somebody is rich or somebody is poor, which doesn't mean that everybody gets it perfectly.
But I think we have somewhat, in my mind, accepted Donald Trump's standard, when we say that the political -- or that the prosecution of Hunter Biden, for example, was political. I mean, that is incredibly unhelpful, when you think about the precedent that it's going to set for Donald Trump.
It's a gift to Donald Trump, because he's going to come here and claim that he's just doing what Joe Biden did, and I think that is hurtful for the American people.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, when you're saying that this is accepting Trump's standard or his view of the Justice Department.
I mean, reading that statement, from President Biden, it didn't just say, I know I've said for months that I wasn't going to do this, but I'm a dad. I just law -- I didn't run, and then didn't ultimately beat Donald Trump, so I changed my mind. I mean, he attacked the Justice Department, which is obviously led by his pick, Attorney General Merrick Garland, and called it a miscarriage of justice.
So, what do Democrats do in two months, when Donald Trump is in office, and he wants--
BENNET: Well -- yes.
COLLINS: --Pam Bondi running the DOJ.
BENNET: I don't think it's--
COLLINS: What does it look like?
BENNET: I don't think this needs to be just up to Democrats. I think this is going to have to be up to Democrats and Republicans. I hear politicians all over the place here, talking to the cameras, and saying, The Justice Department is corrupt, The FBI is corrupt, This is corrupt.
You know what? We have the oversight of all those agencies. And senators that came before us, when presidents were abusing the trust of the American people, found a way to provide the oversight that we now do. I'm part of the -- I'm on the Intelligence committee. That was created to deal with the abuses of the CIA and the FBI around the time of Watergate.
Senators in those days had their act together, and worked as Republicans and Democrats, to ensure that the rule of law would last for the next generation of Americans, and that we were carrying forward a trust that our parents and grandparents kept for us, rather than just pointing fingers and blame, and saying it's all somebody else's fault or that it's all just politics. And a lot of the reason why Trump got elected is because a lot of the people in America think it all is just politics. And they think this place is corrupt. And they think Donald Trump is corrupt, but at least he's being honest about his corruption.
We should do better than that standard in this country. We should do better than that in the United States of America, if we're going to expect to pass something along to our kids and our grandkids that we're -- that we're proud of.
COLLINS: I take it you don't agree--
BENNET: And I don't think that's naive.
COLLINS: --with Senator Manchin's--
BENNET: What -- go ahead.
COLLINS: Yes. I take it -- I take it, you don't agree with Senator Manchin's suggestion that to even this out, Biden should also pardon Trump.
BENNET: I don't think -- this isn't about evening stuff out between politicians in Washington, D.C. That's the Washington game that everybody at home hates.
What people want to understand is what this place is doing to try to create an economy that when it grows, it actually grows for everybody, not the people at the very top.
They like to know -- I know a lot of people in Denver, many of them parents, of kids that have had misfortunes, who'd like to know how their kid could find their way through a justice system to the other side, once they've paid their responsibility, or society, to be able to contribute to the society again, and not be marooned by the world's largest system of incarceration.
But they look at something like this and say, You know what? Justice isn't for people like us. Or, Getting justice isn't for people like us, it's only for the rich and powerful in our country. And I think that's a really, really terrible message to send. And I think that it is going to be a huge benefit to Donald Trump.
COLLINS: In what way? In terms of him -- he can pardon whoever? I mean, he already used it generously. But then he can pardon whomever he wants, because what's the response from Democrats going to be?
[21:40:00]
Or is it more of -- you know what Tom Cotton said earlier, Democrats can spare us the lectures about the rule of law when they say when President Trump nominates Pam Bondi and Kash Patel to clean up this corruption.
BENNET: I think, look, I think it's partly the idea that that we've accepted the narrative that the Department of Justice is a corrupt institution, when there are thousands and thousands of people, all over the United States of America, that are working for that agency, that are defending the interests of the American people, when there are law-breakers, or when there are polluters, or when there are folks that need to be taken on in the rule of law. And it undermines their ability to do their job well.
In fact, I think we're going to see a lot of them leave the Department of Justice. You're going to see a lot of people leave the FBI, maybe even the Department of Defense, which is exactly what Donald Trump wants. Because what he wants is chaos, and what he wants is to destroy these agencies, which we can think of as the federal government, but we can also think of them as our exercise in self-government.
And that's why I would say, again, to my colleagues here, that at a moment when presidents don't seem willing to think about how to preserve the best of American institutions, for the next generation? Maybe we could surprise a lot of people, lift ourselves up, and work together, to provide the kind of oversight that the American people need. That would be a helpful and constructive thing that we could do.
There are only a 100 people in America that have that job. They all happen to work in this building. And we should find a way to do that, instead of just complaining and pointing the finger, which isn't getting us anywhere.
COLLINS: Senator Michael Bennet, I've said it before, we always appreciate your candor. I certainly do. Thank you for your time.
BENNET: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Of course.
Up next. We're going to talk about those very people that, the 100 people Senator Bennet was talking about there, going to be deciding on soon. Trump's Defense secretary pick was up there, on Capitol Hill, behind where he is, as he's facing new allegations of drinking on the job, sexist behavior and racist chants.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Donald Trump's pick to lead the Pentagon is on defense again, facing new allegations tonight, after he spent the day meeting with the senators who could decide his fate, while also dodging questions from reporters in the hallway.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Hegseth, can you respond to these allegations in The New Yorker article that came out, of misconduct allegations in your time at the Veterans?
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Now, this appearance came after a report in The New Yorker that said Pete Hegseth was forced out of two veterans advocacy organizations that he led, over, quote, "Serious allegations of financial mismanagement, sexual impropriety, and personal misconduct."
Among the allegations, according to a whistleblower complaint that The New Yorker obtained, Hegseth was often drunk on the job to the point of needing to be carried out of work events, and that he and others sexually pursued the organization's female staffers.
In response to that report, a Hegseth adviser told CNN, quote, "We're not going to comment on outlandish claims laundered through the New Yorker by a petty and jealous disgruntled former associate of Mr. Hegseth's."
My sources tonight are:
CNN Political Commentator, Margaret Hoover, who was, I should note, hired to give advice as an outside consultant to one of the organizations that Hegseth was reportedly forced out of.
And also, former Trump campaign adviser, David Urban.
And so, Margaret, let me start with you, given your experience. I mean, what can you tell us about the culture at Veterans for Freedom under Pete Hegseth's leadership.
MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST, PBS "FIRING LINE": Yes. Kaitlan, as I -- as you said, I provided strategic advice to Vets for Freedom between 2008 and 2009, and watched Pete Hegseth, who was the Chairman of Vets for Freedom, really mismanage the funds of the organization, so much so that he lost the trust of the supporters of the organization, and was ultimately forced to hand over control of the organization to another entity that was a much more trusted and reliable set of leadership.
The culture, as far as I could tell, I didn't have day-to-day contact with how Pete led the team. Whenever I interfaced with them, there were a lot of men, lot of guys. But I want to say, like these were veterans who were returning from the war.
And this is -- this was a time where Americans, and even I myself, were very sympathetic to vets, who had volunteered to serve in an all- volunteer army, for a mission that was, frankly, very popular amongst Republicans, and that many of us believed needed to be seen through.
So we -- there's a -- I would -- I would say, and I would, just for context, put that there was -- there was a lot of sympathy baked into how people internalized some of the behaviors, I think, at the time.
COLLINS: Yes.
HOOVER: I think what's clear is that those behaviors were not limited to just this one incident or this one tenure for Mr. Hegseth, but apparently, went on for decades, in other organizations as well. COLLINS: Well, and David, the questions here. And everyone should read the full New Yorker story to just understand what the people who worked with him are alleging, as I noted, that they're denying here.
[21:50:00]
But on just running the Pentagon itself. I mean, obviously, David, it has an $800 billion budget.
And when you read the complaint from The New Yorker, it says that under Hegseth's leadership, the Veterans for Freedom group ran up an enormous debt to where it had less than $1,000 in the bank and $434,000 in unpaid bills.
I mean, this is someone who would then be in charge of way more than 10 employees and a way bigger budget than that.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, well, interestingly, Kaitlan, he would -- if he gets confirmed, he'll have a gigantic staff, obviously, that helps run. It's not like Pete Hegseth is going to sit at his desk and manage 3.2 million people, and a budget of $900 billion that you say. There's an incredible infrastructure there that does do that.
And what Pete would be going there for is to for, you know, he has the President's trust and counsel and ear. And so, he'd be going there to be the President's representative.
You have a deputy secretary, lots of undersecretaries, assistant secretaries, deputy assistant secretaries. So, there's a huge infrastructure that helps run the Department of Defense.
But Pete's going to have to answer questions. He's going to have to go, like he's doing now, visit with all those senators. There's going to be a hearing. He's going to have his day. And they'll get an up- down vote. And at some point, well, you'll know whether it's before that or after that, whether he's got enough support in the Senate to get confirmed.
So, I think he needs to be given a chance to answer the allegations that are made in these articles, and have his day in front of the Senate, and let the senators vote and determine whether or not he's qualified or not?
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what they say.
David Urban. Margaret Hoover. As always, thank you both.
Up next. A chief conspiracy theorist, who pushed a lot of lies about the election, very quietly today admitted that his film that is often cited about the election being stolen, was based on bad information.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: An election denier is now admitting that he was wrong.
Dinesh D'Souza wrote and directed the widely-debunked but also widely- cited film, "2000 Mules." It was co-produced by a right-wing election group, known as True the Vote, and claims falsely that so-called mules cast large numbers of votes, drop boxes in 2020.
Trump and his supporters bring it up all the time, when they are asked for evidence about their claims that the election was rigged, as Trump himself did at our CNN Town Hall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: If you look at True the Vote--
COLLINS: Mr. President, back to what you just said there, though, it was not a rigged election. It was not a stolen election.
You and your supporters lost more than 60 court cases on the election. And it's been nearly two-and-a-half years. Can you publicly acknowledge that you did lose the 2020 election?
TRUMP: Now, let me -- let me just go on.
If you look at True the Vote, they found millions of votes on camera, on government cameras, where they were stuffing ballot boxes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But now that he's facing court action, D'Souza is admitting his movie, the part the True the Vote that Trump was quoting there, which worked with him on this movie, was produced on the basis of inaccurate information provided to me and my team.
My next source has done extensive reporting on the movie and its impact. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan is here in West Palm Beach, Florida, in the shadow of Trump's Mar-a-Lago Club.
I'm assuming, Dinesh D'Souza is not just apologizing out of the goodness of his heart, Donie?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: No.
So this documentary, if you want to -- that's what they call it. It's a movie. It's totally full of misinformation. It actually debuted right in Mar-a-Lago here in 2022.
What it claims is that it uses messed-up cell phone data, also surveillance footage, to try and claim that people who were legally voting using vote drop boxes across the country, that they were, in fact, mules, so-called mules, people who were stuffing ballot boxes, who were trying to commit widespread voter fraud.
And one individual, a man in Georgia who was in this movie, he was shown in this movie, his face was blurred, but he was eventually identified. He sued. And that is why Dinesh D'Souza and also Salem Media Group, which distributed this movie, also had to apologize earlier in this year.
COLLINS: Well, and he was just dropping off ballots for his family, that guy.
O'SULLIVAN: For him and his family, yes.
COLLINS: But the -- you know, this was quietly posted on Dinesh D'Souza's website today.
But what about all the people, who've watched this, who cite this? Because I know you talked to a lot of these people, who believe what they saw in that movie.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, this, I mean, this movie is, I can't tell you how pivotal a role it plays in the election denial movement.
I want to play a quick clip for you, because I hear this all the time on the road. Just a few weeks ago, somebody brought up the movie in a conversation we're having. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: Where will you go to get trusted results on Election Night?
DANI KEAR, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, so the mainstream media is one news source. That's not the only news source.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes, yes, yes.
KEAR: We glance through different social media forums for people to post things about results. I mean, that's kind of how a lot of the cheating that was done in 2020 was exposed, right? "2000 Mules," it was very plainly, there was videos showing how it was done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: And see part of it, right, Kaitlan, is that this movie is, it looks so slick. It looks really sophisticated. There's very high budget. There's a lot of money behind the election denialism movement. And that's why it's really stuck. It's stuck everywhere. Trump has spoken about it. You hear it all over the place.
So, and we saw the results of conspiracy theories about these election drop boxes. I was in Arizona, in 2022, just a few months after this movie came out, where there were armed men patrolling -- patrolling and harassing voters using these voter drop boxes. Also, we saw a lot of it in this election cycle as well.
COLLINS: Yes, and people like Dani Kear, the woman you spoke to there, she may never see this statement saying, Actually, it was based on faulty geolocation data, and this guy was never there, doing that.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. It's pretty buried on Dinesh D'Souza's website.
[22:00:00] And we should point out that he and True the Vote, the organization involved in this also, they still stand by the central claims of the documentary, that there is this widespread fraud, using voter mail -- voter boxes. That has been widely, widely debunked.
COLLINS: Yes, and maybe not widely seen.
Donie O'Sullivan, thank you for that. So glad to have you here joining us.
Thank you all so much for joining us tonight.
I'll be back here, in West Palm Beach, tomorrow night.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
