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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Sources: Suspect Traveled To NYC On Bus That Started In Atlanta; Hegseth: Whistleblower Report An Email From "Disgruntled Employee"; "You Are Out Of Line": Hearing Devolves Into Shouting Match. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 05, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: --so that's really the kind of world we're living in, right now.
I should say that a lot of the time that Patel went on these shows, it was to promote something, it was to sell something.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Right.
Donie O'Sullivan, as always, thank you.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Appreciate it.
Just a reminder. Be sure to tune in at 11 o'clock, for a Special Edition of "LAURA COATES LIVE," "MANHUNT: THE SEARCH FOR THE CEO KILLER." Again, that's 11:00 Eastern, right here.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.
Brand-new images and breaking new details in the manhunt for a CEO's murderer. Where the suspect is now believed to have traveled from to New York City, and the cryptic clues that could point to a motive.
Meanwhile, Trump's embattled Defense secretary pick is lashing out at the media today, over a whistleblower report, amid new allegations about alcohol. Pete Hegseth's attorney will join me live.
And a grilling on the Trump assassination attempts erupted into a jaw- dropping screaming match, on Capitol Hill today, between a Republican lawmaker, and the acting head of the Secret Service. We have the tape that you have to see.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, there's a flurry of new information, new video, new images and new clues that are coming to light, about who the man behind the mask is, who, calmly in cold blood, executed the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, on a sidewalk in front of the Hilton hotel, right here, and in the heart of New York City.
This is a man the police are calling a person of interest, until they say they can identify him and either confirm or eliminate him as the suspect. New York Police released this photo of a man, seen lowering his mask, revealing more of his face than we've seen before, smiling here.
Our John Miller, who we're going to speak to in just a moment, is told by his sources that the man pulled down his mask because he was flirting with a woman at the front desk of a New York City hostel that he was staying in. We're also learning tonight that authorities believe he used a fake ID from New Jersey, when checking into that hostel.
This is new and exclusive video from inside that you can see here.
A law enforcement source also telling us that he arrived in New York City by traveling on a Greyhound bus, at some point, along a route that started in Atlanta, Georgia. When he arrived here in New York, he went on to case that Hilton hotel that was later the scene of the murder.
In even more surveillance that was obtained tonight, you see the man leaving a subway station, shortly before the murder occurred. Then, after a stop at Starbucks, as we've seen before, including where he bought a bottle of water, as his face is covered, he's seen again in a video, just into CNN, on a side street near that Hilton hotel, just about 25 minutes before he opened fire.
After carrying out the killing, he then hopped onto a bike north into Central Park, which obviously is expansive. From there, he disappears.
But in a city that is crawling with surveillance cameras, there is new footage of the man leaving the park. You'll notice here, from this video, he's no longer wearing the backpack that he had on, during that shooting. That video set off a massive scramble to look for that missing backpack, hoping that it could yield some clues to his identity.
Now, what may have already yielded some of those clues is that water bottle, which authorities say contains a smudged fingerprint. And a dropped cell phone that authorities, right now, are still trying to unlock tonight.
I want to get straight to CNN's Shimon Prokupecz. He's at the hostel, where that gunman is believed -- where that person of interest is believed to have stayed.
And Shimon, you're getting new information about how the person arrived to New York City. What can you tell us tonight?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. So, CNN is learning that on November 24th that the alleged gunman arrived in New York City, via a Greyhound bus, at the Port Authority Bus Terminal that came from Atlanta.
So right now, what police know is that he arrived here. It was on November 24th. It was a bus that left Atlanta. Got to New York City. And he would stay here, obviously, for all those days, why and perhaps what was happening during that time period.
But at least police, for now, have been able to backtrack as much as possible, gathering as much information as possible. And a lot of that is being done because of video that they have been able to gather, all across this city, and backtrack and go back to some of the time period of where he was, leading up to the shooting.
But the big question obviously remains, what happens after the shooting? Where did he go? Even tonight, Kaitlan, I can tell you, police are out, back at one of the locations, about 20 blocks away from here, looking for video. Just about an hour and a half ago, they were back out, looking for more video, to try and pinpoint and figure out where he went.
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: Yes. And Shimon, if you hear any more about new video that they do see, it seems to be kind of coming in by the moment here, with these developments, please keep us updated.
Shimon Prokupecz, thank you for that.
My other sources on the manhunt tonight are:
CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller.
And also, retired New York City Police Captain, John Monaghan, who is also here.
It's great to have you both here, two experts, in this.
And John, you've been doing reporting on this. I think the one -- the part that I'm the most struck by is what you reported on the clearest picture yet that we have of this person, where his mask is pulled down, he's smiling in the image.
I was kind of wondering when New York -- the New York Police Department released this today, why he was smiling. And you're hearing that it was because he was flirting. How did the police know that?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, they went to the hostel, and they went through the dates. When did he check in? When did he check out? When did he check back in and check out again?
And they want to interview the people who interacted with him. And a woman who works as a desk clerk there said, Oh, he was checking in, I got the driver's license. There's a question here as whether she looked at the picture on the driver's license, and saw a guy with a hood and a mask and said, Do you really look like this, and lower the mask.
But she said, we were flirting back and forth, and I said, Let me see what you look like, lower the mask.
And he lowered the mask, and gave this big smile.
That moment where he had to weigh, Do I act suspicious enough to leave my hood up indoors and keep the mask on and send alert signals that there's something wrong with me that I won't show my face? Or, did he just engage in that moment?
Whatever it was that made him pull the mask down, their flirtatious moment, has resulted in what is the single most important clue so far that could lead to him being identified.
COLLINS: Yes, and he seems to be pretty camera-savvy, or pretty just savvy, period, in terms of avoiding cameras, or keeping his mask on.
What have you picked up on, in seeing the images that are released, and also just about that moment that could potentially be quite telling and revealing for him?
JOHN MONAGHAN, RETIRED NYPD CAPTAIN: Well, his face has been all over the news, all over this country, for a good day now. And if it's not him, and there's a chance it's not, what we think it is, either way, there's a handful of people in this world that know that man. And a bulb went off in their head said, Oh, that's so and so, and we haven't heard from him yet.
You look closely. I compare that video to the photos taken from the Starbucks. They don't match completely. I'm not saying, I don't think it's him. But--
COLLINS: You and I had the same thought on that.
MONAGHAN: We did.
COLLINS: That it looked a little different.
MONAGHAN: Yes, they did. It's a different jacket. It's a different backpack. And John brought up the other day that, well, yesterday, that backpack is gray, the one in Starbucks. I mean, that one's gray. The one in the hostel is black.
Did he ditch the backpack? And you know what? If he did? And you said this. We'd have found it. We put a 1,000 cops in that park. They scout every blade of grass in that park. If he ditched it in the park, we would have found it.
And that bike coming across 85th Street, I'm not sure that's him. From 59th and sixth to go to 104th Street and Amsterdam Avenue, best way to go is through Central Park on a bicycle. Well, you wouldn't exit at 85th Street. There's an Exit 96. There's an exit at 100th. And that doesn't look like a Citi Bike to me.
So, I mean, is this the guy? If it wasn't the guy, we'd know--
COLLINS: Well--
MONAGHAN: --because he himself would have come forward.
COLLINS: That's a great point. And I mean, what are -- you've been even talking to these sources today, John. I mean, what's their sense? Are they still not sure if it's him?
MILLER: They are all but certain it's him. But until they know who he is, and are able to match his fingerprints to one they found at the scene, or his DNA to DNA that they may recover from the evidence they have, they can't be certain.
But they know that the backpack he used on the hit is not the backpack he has on his shoulder, when he's checking in. The backpack he dumped in the park. And Captain Monaghan described it correctly. They used a mobile field force. They did a grid search. But it's a big park and complicated terrain.
But it's also New York, which is, you throw away a perfectly good backpack in Central Park, there's a good chance somebody's going to pick that up and walk away with it.
COLLINS: Yes.
Can we talk about the 10 days, the idea of how long he's been here?
Because you had said something really interesting about, how did he know what door the CEO is going to -- going to be walking in at the Hilton hotel. It's a giant hotel, for people who haven't ever been there or seen it. And it has a pretty expansive entrance. He knew what door he was walking in.
But also now we're learning, he was here for 10 days before the shooting actually took place, long before this conference was supposed to happen.
MONAGHAN: You would think that he did surveillance on the man himself. But Mr. Thompson has only been here since Monday. That's two days. So did he watch the CEO -- he left the hotel by that door at that time on Monday and on Tuesday? I doubt it, because what would have him leave that hotel at that hour on a days when it wasn't a conference.
And also, the conference was scheduled, I believe, for 9 o'clock. Why was he leaving so early?
[21:10:00]
The kid's on the phone just before the shooting. He's getting information. There could be a lot of backstory on that, who's calling him. But it could be something as mundane as -- you know, I'm sure while the detectives are talking to every employee in that hotel. It could be simply, Here's $100, tell me when the man in room X leaves. Because he's on the phone immediately prior.
How did he know what door he's leaving by and what time. It can't be that he came and cased the man. The man wasn't hardly here long enough to develop a routine of his own. Certainly, he was only going to the conference that one day. So, it really doesn't add up.
Who he was on the phone with is a big point. Might have been a hotel employee. Might have been whoever may have put him up to this. We banded around that word, professional. He's not a professional. You see the mistakes he's making. But was he hired? Could possibly do that. I really think that that's the case.
COLLINS: And why do you think that?
MONAGHAN: His mannerisms. We're not going to show the whole shooting. You don't want to see a man being shot to death on TV. I understand that.
COLLINS: Yes, but let's show the video of where he is walking up to him, when he has the gun in his hand, and he's walking up to the CEO. Because this is a point that you were making that I thought was a really smart one about what it looks like.
MONAGHAN: When he's fired -- well, after he fired, well, that's the first shot going off.
There's a lot to be said about that gun, and John could tell us more about that. That's a very specific type of weapon that he's racking every shot. The gun did not jam. He racked it not to clear a jam. He racked it to be able to fire the next round. It didn't jam until after the second shot.
But when he's finished shooting -- can you get to the end after the shooting is done? When he's finished shooting, just prior to it, he does not -- the man's crumpled by the building line, and he does not approach him. He just walks, right by. He's walking. He's not even running. He just walks by.
If this was personal to that shooter, he would have leaned in and delivered his message, or take that final kill shot. He didn't have a personal, heartfelt, viral interest in shooting this man. I really don't think so. It was that final moment. He's about three feet away, and he just kept walking, like nothing happened.
COLLINS: And so, they don't have the gun yet. They do have these casings that--
MILLER: The shells, yes.
COLLINS: --they're looking at the shells, with the inscriptions on them.
But John, on the gun itself, they're looking at that. They're looking at the 10 days that he's been here, which I would assume provides them, potentially, a lot of video that they can look at. And he had to buy things to eat, and go places. Where does that stand, right now? What's the latest on that?
MILLER: So, that's a build, right? Once they identified, yesterday, that there's this hostel? That gives them something they didn't have before, which is, OK, we have a starting point for this individual, every day.
So, if they go back in the video of that hostel, and say, What time does he leave this day? All right, so starting at that time, we're going to expand our canvas, south, and see which way he goes, and continue that. So, it will take them weeks to -- and they will do this. They will build out every step of his trip that's on video. They will create a movie of his every move.
And they're going to want to know when he went this -- the first thing that they know he did was he came in on this bus, that originated in Atlanta. They're still trying to figure out, where did he get on? And then, he went right to the Hilton hotel, and started his reconnaissance, apparently, on his first day.
He checks into the hostel. He checks out for a day. Where does he go that day? They don't have that yet. They're going to need to build that day, because it doesn't start at their normal video start point. But they're going to do all that.
And they're going to be looking for what Captain Monaghan is talking about. Does he meet with someone? Does he see a person? Is there this interlocutor or a second person?
But it's going to take a lot of work. Still waiting for that phone call. Because in all that video they have found, he goes to McDonald's. He hops a cab. What they don't have is him taking that hood down, and taking that mask down, which means he's on alert, the whole time. He knows he's on camera. It's New York.
COLLINS: Yes. Commissioner. Captain. Great to have you both here.
MILLER: Thank you.
COLLINS: We'll continue to follow this.
We're going to have more on this breaking news tonight. We're going to speak to New York City's former Police Commissioner, Ray Kelly, right after a quick break.
Also, we're following developments out of Washington, where Trump's Defense secretary pick, Pete Hegseth, is on defense, as he's struggling to overcome misconduct allegations, more that have surfaced. His lawyer is going to join us live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY: This will not be a process tried in the media. I don't answer to anyone in this group. None of you. Not to that camera at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking news as police are hunting for the gunman tonight who killed the UnitedHealthcare CEO, and have new information on how he made his way here into New York. With a source telling us tonight, that he traveled on a Greyhound bus that started in Atlanta. And later, checked into a hostel with a fake ID, when he arrived, here in New York.
My investigative source tonight is former New York Police Department Commissioner, Ray Kelly.
It's great to have you here, Mr. Commissioner.
RAY KELLY, FORMER NYPD COMMISSIONER: Good to be with you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: When you look at just where this stands right now, and what we've learned, between the smudged fingerprint on the water bottle, the phone, the surveillance footage, what's the most important lead to them right now?
KELLY: I would say the most important lead is the picture of this individual without a mask on. Facial recognition is really sophisticated these days, and I think it's going to help greatly. And of course, the picture itself, because, as your expert said, this has been all over the country, his picture, and somebody may very well recognize him.
[21:20:00]
But they got an awful lot of information, and I think they've done a very good job so far. And I think it's just inevitable that in short order, this individual will be taken into custody.
COLLINS: So--
KELLY: And it's clearly, the words on the shell casings indicate that it's solely about the business that the victim was in. There's no question about that.
There's some strange things about it. I don't think he was a professional. Certainly he -- the one shot was a kill shot, and it was only another shot that hit him in the calf and a third shot missed. That's not what professionals do. You shoot him in the head, if you want to make certain that it's going to finish the job.
So, I think -- I think they're on the right track, and we're going to see results fairly soon.
COLLINS: Well, so now that they have that image, where he has pulled his mask down, and you can just get the clearest look yet at his face, what are they doing with that as of this moment? Since it's 09:30 here, almost in the evening in New York. What are -- what are investigators go -- how do they take this from point A to point B, basically?
KELLY: Well, they take this photograph and bring it through a facial recognition system. Now, I'm sure they've already done that, and it may not have had a hit. But there are other systems. And there are literally over a billion photographs that are in the facial recognition systems. So, it's a good chance that they're going to have a hit here. But that -- that's job number one.
And obviously, they're doing everything they can to circulate this picture, because, as I said, you want to -- you want a recognition, a live recognition, of this individual would be the most helpful.
And they're looking at the phone. The fact that he left the water bottle is strange. He looks like he did a lot of preparation beforehand. He was scouting the hotel. He was there early in the morning.
What I would like to know, though, is the speech, if there -- if there is a written speech by Mr. Thompson, as to what he was going to say at this -- at this meeting, at this convention. Because this individual looks like he wanted to stop him from making that speech. And was it, he going to reveal something.
We know that the company was under an investigation for insider trading. Was there any recognition or revelation in that speech? Because he was intent on being there before the speech was given. So, I'd like to see that if it's around.
COLLINS: Yes. What about given -- you know, he was here 10 days before the shooting actually occurred. Obviously, a lengthy amount of time, mostly staying at that hostel, though he did check out for one night.
I mean, how many cameras are there in New York? I mean, obviously there's a lot. But from -- how many are there, in the sense of how they're charting, he took a left here, he went straight a few blocks this way. How do they piece that together?
KELLY: In the, say, Manhattan, it's so concentrated, there're so many cameras that you can do that. And I think that that's what they've done. They tracked him with these pictures of different cameras.
There's almost 18,000 cameras in New York City, and the vast majority of them are, frankly, they're in Manhattan. So, yes, it can be done. Now, some of the neighborhoods, of course, don't have the density that the Midtown -- Manhattan has. But there's an awful lot of cameras in New York. Came about right after 9/11, and they continue to put them in, and they've been very effective in--
COLLINS: Yes.
KELLY: --in solving a crime.
COLLINS: Well, we'll see how effective they are here.
Commissioner Ray Kelly, as always, thank you for your expertise. And thanks for joining me tonight. KELLY: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: We're going to continue to monitor all the live developments here.
There's also going to be a Special Edition of "LAURA COATES LIVE," this evening. Laura and her team are going to take you through the dramatic hunt and the search for the gunman and his motive. That's tonight live, at 11:00 Eastern. Don't want to miss it.
Up next here ahead. Trump's embattled defense secretary is angry at the press today. The word, whistleblower, in a question that set him off about allegations of workplace misconduct.
Pete Hegseth's attorney is going to join me with the latest, live after this break.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Pete Hegseth marched to Capitol Hill for a fourth consecutive day, fighting to save his nomination to lead the Pentagon, which is essentially hanging by a thread, up to a few senators at this point. And amid multiple allegations, including from a whistleblower report, in which former colleagues of his accuse him of being intoxicated at work events for a veterans advocacy group, while also pursuing women staffers.
I should note, CNN has not independently reviewed that report. It was first reported on, by The New Yorker.
And when he was asked about those allegations today, Pete Hegseth was defiant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Will you support the release of that whistleblower report from the Concerned Veterans for America?
HEGSETH: It's very interesting what the press likes to dub a whistleblower report, which some others might clarify as an email from a disgruntled employee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: My source tonight is Pete Hegseth's personal attorney, Tim Parlatore, a more familiar source of this show, I should note, during his time when he represented the former President of the United States.
And so, it's great to have you here, Tim. Clearly, Pete Hegseth does not like the term, whistleblower report. We'll call it a complaint, or whatever you would like. But if the committee wants to see that, which the incoming Chair, Roger Wicker, has indicated that he does, will it be made available to those senators?
TIM PARLATORE, ATTORNEY FOR PETE HEGSETH: Oh, absolutely.
And just to clarify Pete's point there. When we call it a whistleblower complaint, that makes it sound like several employees put this thing together and sent it to the organization. That's not what happened.
What we're talking about here is an email from a single employee, who was terminated, couple of years after the fact, that was sent to Fox News, to try and get him fired. It was -- it was investigated, then. It was found to be baseless.
And this document, we have no problem sharing it with the committee, because, I mean, quite frankly, there's nothing in there that they didn't read in The New Yorker already, and there's nothing in there that hasn't already been debunked by all of the other employees, who are willing to put their name on the record.
COLLINS: Who investigated it?
PARLATORE: It was something that was done by Fox News legal at the time.
COLLINS: Have you personally seen this complaint?
PARLATORE: Oh, sure, absolutely.
COLLINS: And so you would -- you haven't made it available to the committee yet, I'm assuming. Tell me if that's wrong. But you are prepared to make it available to them.
PARLATORE: Sure. Sure. If they ask, I'll send it right over to them.
COLLINS: OK. Good to know.
The other thing that today that Pete Hegseth has done is denying that allegation of sexual assault. That was kind of one of the first things that came up after Trump picked him to be his Defense secretary. He has denied it fervently. It was settled in an agreement with this woman, in 2017.
Yesterday, when you were talking to Jake Tapper, you said that you believed it's extortion. But of course, as you know, extortion is also a crime. So, if you felt that it was extortion, why not go to the police at the time?
PARLATORE: Well, it was a decision that we made. And the email from the attorney, I don't -- yes, it was something that I don't know if it quite rises to level of a criminal extortion, that the police would take it on. But I think it certainly does meet the definition under the California law for civil extortion, and it was something that we're considering at the time.
And quite frankly, with the violation of the -- of the agreement, if he is not confirmed as a Secretary of Defense, we may still bring a civil extortion claim against her.
COLLINS: So, if he is not ultimately confirmed, because of these allegations, you may take legal action against the person at the center of that agreement?
PARLATORE: Absolutely. If the false claims of somebody that was part of an extortion that was then -- that was then put out, in violation of a settlement agreement, ultimately causes him to lose his future employment opportunities, then yes, that is something that is worth bringing a lawsuit against her, and her friend, and potentially even the attorney for her, yes.
COLLINS: We've heard some people say that she should be released from that non-disclosure agreement that was part of the settlement agreement. Is there any consideration between you and Mr. Hegseth of doing that?
PARLATORE: Well, so first of all, it's not a -- a non-disclosure agreement is something where one party agrees not to disclose.
This was a confidential settlement agreement that had confidentiality on both sides. That agreement has since been breached by her. And so, as a result, I sent notice to her attorney that that agreement is no longer has any force and effect. That's one of the reasons why I can talk about it here. Because prior to that, the agreement prevented Mr. Hegseth from talking about her conduct.
So, there is no NDA to release her from. And if she wants to go and talk about it, she can do it. I mean, certainly she would do it at her own peril of a further defamation lawsuit, but. And additionally--
COLLINS: Well that's news. We didn't--
PARLATORE: --NDAs, you know--
COLLINS: People have been calling for her to be able to speak. And you're saying, I mean, you're his attorney, you're saying that from the agreement which you negotiated, that she can come out and speak on CNN, or wherever she chooses?
PARLATORE: Of course. Of course. However, if she doesn't tell the truth, if she repeats these false statements, then she will be subject to a defamation lawsuit. But no she -- and she's well aware of that. Her attorney was well aware that because of the breach of the agreement, that is no longer in any force, in effect, she is free to speak if she wants.
I've heard people saying we should release him -- release her, so that she can testify before the committee. There is no such thing as an NDA--
COLLINS: OK. PARLATORE: --that prohibits somebody from complying with a subpoena.
COLLINS: OK. So, you're saying that she could be--
PARLATORE: So, that's not us.
COLLINS: --you're saying she could be released.
In terms of settlement agreements, is that the only settle--
PARLATORE: No, I'm saying she's already been released. She released herself.
COLLINS: Right. Is that the only settlement agreement that Pete Hegseth has signed with the woman?
PARLATORE: Yes.
COLLINS: So no--
[21:35:00]
PARLATORE: I mean, obviously, divorce -- divorce settlements. But -- but no, this is the only one.
COLLINS: OK. Well, I just wanted to check. Because obviously, we've seen meetings that he's had with people like Senator Joni Ernst. She was out today, I'm sure you saw this interview on Fox News, where she declined to throw her support behind him. She said that she has not gotten to a yes yet. No one has said they're not voting for him. But she said she's not there yet.
She said one thing that she wants is more vetting, to continue with the vetting process. She said, I think that is incredibly important.
Has the Trump team submitted Pete Hegseth's name to the FBI yet for a background check?
PARLATORE: Oh yes. He received the forms yesterday from the FBI. And we're working on them right now.
COLLINS: And we've heard from others who -- Kevin Cramer, who said, he does feel like he's leaning towards supporting him, barring any surprises.
Are you confident that no surprises are going to come out as a result of that background check?
PARLATORE: Oh, I am expecting that the background check is going to take a lot of the false stories that have been circulated in the media, and it's going to put them completely to bed. I think that the surprise you're going to find is how false all the reporting has been.
COLLINS: OK. So, a lot of news just made here. I just want to say.
The background check name has been submitted. So that means the FBI will start that process.
You're saying that this woman could speak publicly about this, the center of that 2017 complaint.
And that you are willing to turn over that complaint, from where he previously worked, to the Armed Services Committee.
Tim Parlatore, thank you very much for your time tonight.
PARLATORE: All right, thank you.
COLLINS: Of course, on this note, I should note, a responsibility of U.S. senators for any pick by a president is to be a check and balance on their appointments. It is in the Constitution.
We did hear from one Republican senator today, though, who had a very different take on that. One of his Democratic colleagues, Senator Richard Blumenthal, will join me live.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As Pete Hegseth's nomination to lead the Pentagon hangs in the balance tonight. One of the President-elect's staunchest allies, Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama, raised eyebrows today when he insisted that vetting the Cabinet picks is not his party's responsibility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): Donald Trump did all the vetting they needed to do on Pete Hegseth. And I just can't believe we even have people on our side, they're saying, Well, I've got to look at this, got to look at that.
What they're doing is they're throwing rocks at Donald Trump. They're not throwing them at Pete Hegseth. They're throwing them at Donald Trump, because they're saying, Well, we don't believe you did the right vetting, and we don't believe he can do the job.
Wait a minute, that's not our job to do that. That's the Democrats'.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Constitution might beg to differ.
Joining me tonight is Democratic senator from Connecticut, Richard Blumenthal.
And it's great to have you here, Senator.
First, just let me get your take on Tuberville, saying it's your party's job to vet -- to further vet Trump's nominees than the vetting he says Trump has already done. SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I'll tell you, Kaitlan, I don't say this lightly about a colleague, but that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen or heard. And the reason is, quite simply, the Constitution does beg to differ.
The Constitution says that every one of us must advise and consent on every nominee made by the president, coming before us. Individually, we take an oath not to a president, but to the Constitution. And I think that any senator who says, I'm just going to vote in favor of whoever the president sends up, because the president has vetted him enough, is really violating their oath of office.
And Donald Trump, by the way, has said, essentially, he hasn't done any FBI investigation yet. Apparently, there may well be one on Hegseth. There has to be one. The committee should insist on it. But so far, hasn't been done.
COLLINS: Yes, and we just heard from Hegseth's attorney, Tim Parlatore, telling me that he has gotten the FBI paperwork. They are starting that process.
What did you make of what he said about where this stands? I mean, Pete Hegseth has been very defiant here. He's vowing to fight.
He was just saying there that the settlement agreement in 2017 that was struck between the woman who accused Pete Hegseth of sexual assault, which he denies, Tim Parlatore was saying, this woman at the center of it has violated it, in their view, and that she therefore can speak publicly. That there's nothing barring her from speaking.
BLUMENTHAL: What they're doing essentially is threatening or intimidating a potential witness. I think they have to formally waive any non-disclosure agreement. Let's not be too technical here. It's part of a settlement, but it's still a gag order. And give her the right to tell us, the Armed Services Committee, all she knows, all the truth that she will speak to power. And this threat of a lawsuit, I think, frankly, is reprehensible.
And it's more than just sexual impropriety or sexual abuse that's involved here. It's alcohol abuse, and lack of management experience, in fact, mismanagement.
I wrote today to my colleagues, the Ranking Member and the Chairman at the Armed Services Committee, saying the committee should get records of the financial mismanagement by Hegseth, who ran those two organizations, Concerned Veterans for America and Veterans for Freedom, ran them into the ground, used them as his personal expense account.
COLLINS: Have you gotten a response on that request that you sent to the incoming Chair?
BLUMENTHAL: Not a formal response. But I think they'll be very favorable to that idea.
[21:45:00] And moreover, I'm going to ask the incoming Chair, Senator Roger Wicker of Mississippi, that we get whatever financial audits there are, the forensic reports of that mismanagement, because he really spent like a drunken sailor.
COLLINS: Well, and he said there that they are willing to turn over -- Tim Parlatore said, they are willing to turn over that complaint from when he was running one of those organizations. They were dismissing it as just as written by one employee. But he said they are willing to give it to the committee, if they formally request it.
You made headlines though, yesterday, when you said five to 10 Republican colleagues of yours had privately expressed they were against Pete Hegseth.
No one has said that publicly yet, by my count.
What have you heard from those people in the 24 hours since then?
BLUMENTHAL: Those five to 10 are more deeply troubled than ever. And I am hopeful that they will come forward. I think they have an obligation to come forward to their constituents, to the American people, because their fears go to our national security.
A man who has this record of alcohol problems? Sympathetic as I am to people who may have those problems, we don't want them at the top of our national security structure. It is a threat to our national security.
This official is the one who's called in the middle of the night, like Secretary Austin was, There's a Chinese balloon going over America. Should we shoot it down? You don't want someone who is impaired or incapacitated in that role.
The Department of Defense has 3 million employees, a budget of $850 billion. He's never run anything with more than 10 or 15 people. And every organization that he has run actually has lost money, almost every year.
COLLINS: Yes.
Let me ask you, before we go, President Biden at the White House is apparently considering pardoning other people, who aren't necessarily or aren't charged with crimes, but are people that they are worried could be targeted by the incoming Trump team. Names like Dr. Fauci and others were mentioned in reporting from Politico, and now The New York Times as well.
Would you support issuing pardons for people who haven't necessarily committed any offenses but are worried they could be targeted by Trump?
BLUMENTHAL: I would oppose, in fact, strongly oppose, this kind of blanket, broad immunity. The way to stand up to a bully, like Donald Trump, is not to run and hide. It's to confront him. And that's what we ought to do if they misuse the Department of Justice. I was a prosecutor, U.S. attorney, and then State Attorney General. And I believe the way to confront Donald Trump is to put together a defense team, and a defense fund. I'd be happy to join it. And what we should do is support those people, who are potentially in jeopardy.
But there's no way to offer this kind of immunity to everyone who may be a target of Donald Trump, because they will go after whoever doesn't have that kind of pardon. And there are plenty of targets that they can assail.
COLLINS: That's news, you are opposed to that.
Senator, as always, great to have you here on set, in-person. Thank you so much.
BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. There was quite a shouting match on the Hill, the Senator was not involved in it, between the Secret Service chief and a U.S. lawmaker today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAT FALLON (R-TX): I'm asking you if you were the--
RONALD L. ROWE JR., ACTING DIRECTOR OF THE UNITED STATES SECRET SERVICE: I was there, Congressman--
FALLON: Are you the special agent in charge?
ROWE JR.: --I was there to show respect--
FALLON: You are not.
ROWE JR.: --for a Secret Service member that--
FALLON: Oh, that's a bunch of horse hockey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A shouting match erupted on Capitol Hill today, during what had, until this moment that you're about to see, been a pretty substantive hearing on Secret Service shortfalls, surrounding the assassination attempts on President-elect Trump.
Things became heated when a Republican congressman showed this picture of the acting Secret Service Director, Ronald Rowe, at a 9/11 ceremony, questioning why he was there, and accusing him of attending it for publicity and a job audition.
Accusations that Rowe did not take kindly to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROWE JR.: That is the day where we remember the more than 3,000 people that have died on 9/11. I actually responded to Ground Zero. I was there going through the ashes of the World Trade Center. I was there at Fresh Kills.
FALLON: I'm not asking you that.
ROWE JR.: I was there, Congressman--
FALLON: I'm asking you if you were the -- are you the special agent in charge?
ROWE JR.: --I was there to show respect--
FALLON: You are not.
ROWE JR.: --for a Secret Service member--
FALLON: Oh, that's a bunch of horse hockey.
ROWE JR.: --that died on 9/11.
FALLON: Oh that -- you're trying to be--
ROWE JR.: Do not invoke 9/11 for political purposes.
FALLON: Oh, that I'm not. I'm invoking this--
ROWE JR.: You are, sir.
FALLON: No, I'm not.
REP. MIKE KELLY (R-PA): Gentlemen.
ROWE JR.: You are out of line.
KELLY: Gentlemen.
FALLON: Mr. Chairman.
KELLY: Gentlemen.
FALLON: I would like to ask him a question--
KELLY: Please. Order.
ROWE JR.: You are out of line, Congressman.
KELLY: Order.
FALLON: Don't try to bully me.
ROWE JR.: Way out of line.
FALLON: Don't try to bully me. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources tonight are:
CNN Political Commentator, S.E. Cupp.
Ashley Allison, who worked in the Obama White House.
And CNN's Harry Enten.
Hopefully, no shouting here.
But S.E., I mean, I think you have the look on your face right now, kind of says how everyone felt watching that.
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That was a lot. And it seemed -- it seemed sparked by real emotion and passion. And these are emotional, passionate things we're discussing, right? 9/11 is an emotional issue for me, too.
[21:55:00]
But that said, and I don't mean to be cynical, it seems increasingly, like if things are not at a fever pitch, in these hearings or in Congress, the stakes somehow aren't high enough. And you have to match this moment with this overheated, performative kind of rhetoric and exercise and display.
And I just think we'd love cooler heads to prevail, in these kinds of settings, where adults are supposed to be making really important, big decisions.
COLLINS: I think we would love that.
And what I was thinking about today, after that moment happened, was the House majority. Now we -- all the races have now been called.
CUPP: Yes.
COLLINS: We now know what it's going to look like, Harry.
And if you're Speaker Mike Johnson, he's used to dealing with these kind of small margins. But it just got a lot smaller for him.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL DATA REPORTER: Yes, a lot smaller. I mean, historically small.
What are we talking about? Republicans at 220 going in to the next Congress. Democrats at 215. It's the smallest majority after November elections since 1930 -- 1931. I mean, when you're going back to the Herbert Hoover administration, you're talking really, really small.
I mean, I count the number of people that we have on this set currently. One, two, three, four. We got a studio floor manager here. We got a camera person here. We got another person back there. When you have more people in the studio than the size of the Republican majority, you know it's really small.
And that, of course, doesn't even take into account the people who are going to resign the Congress, or not going to take their seats, because they were appointed by the Trump administration. We could be talking about a two-seat majority, once all that's said and done before the special elections.
That's the smallest majority in over a 100 years. That's what we're talking about, historically small majorities.
And fights like that, I think you're going to see plenty more of that, because the blood levels are going to be sky-high.
COLLINS: Because once Elise Stefanik and Mike Waltz resign--
ENTEN: Yes.
COLLINS: it's going to be 217-215, right?
ENTEN: Right. Plus -- and Gaetz not taking a seat. Exactly right.
COLLINS: Right. So having that, I mean, for a banner Congress, I mean, they just had the least productive Congress in modern history in the last one that's about to finish its term.
As someone who knows Washington really well, what do you think this is going to look like? Because Mike Johnson had to work with Democrats, this last time, with that small margin. That's not really going to be politically as much of an option for him, with Donald Trump in the White House.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, OBAMA WHITE HOUSE SENIOR POLICY ADVISER: Yes, I think Mike Johnson being the Speaker, when the Republicans didn't have the Senate is also different types of leadership.
There now is a trifecta. So, there is an actual expectation from people, who voted for Republicans, for people to govern, to pass laws that improve the quality of their lives.
Many voters said that they -- the cost of living was too high. So, it is now on the Republicans' footsteps to fix it. And with that slim majority, you're not going to be able to fix it with drastic cuts to Social Security or Medicaid and Medicare. You're going to -- those are -- those are third-rail issues, almost.
And so, you may have run on a very extreme agenda. But when it comes time to govern, it's going to be slim. And then, even if it gets to the Senate, their window is -- their margin is pretty slim as well. They don't have enough to get over a filibuster, 60-person vote.
So, the question is, are they actually going to get a lot of things done? And if they can't, it's going to end up back at Donald Trump, doing executive orders that then gets challenged in the courts. And so, it's just going to be this vicious cycle that -- you said, I know D.C. well. I don't want to wear that as a badge of honor, right now. COLLINS: I'm sorry.
ALLISON: Because of the candidates -- D.C. means--
COLLINS: I'm sorry.
ALLISON: Yes, I mean, it is what it is.
CUPP: Remember, Mike Johnson needed Democrats--
ALLISON: That's right.
CUPP: --to avoid a government shutdown, to pass Ukraine aid bills, like this is--
COLLINS: Well what about the powerful Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Thomas Massie, and those unusually--
(CROSSTALK)
CUPP: Well -- well -- exactly.
ALLISON: They'll need them again.
CUPP: They will need them again, because there're still Republicans in the Freedom Caucus that could be a problem for Mike Johnson too.
But no one is going to be more important on the Hill than Tom Emmer, the Majority Whip, right, at counting votes, and getting his people, not only to vote the way that Mike Johnson wants them to vote, but to get their butts to Washington to vote.
You've been around the Hill. When someone misses a vote, their plane is late, they're out sick, none of that's going to be OK in this new Republican reality.
ENTEN: I just -- you know, Democrats are so down, after this past November election. But I got to tell you, Hakeem Jeffries has got to be looking at this divided Congress and -- you know, look, we know what midterm losses generally look like. They're usually pretty big. I think Hakeem Jeffries, at this point, is licking his chops because he knows how difficult it is to govern.
CUPP: How ugly it's going to be, yes.
ENTEN: How ugly it's going to be.
CUPP: Yes.
ENTEN: And very likely, Democrats right now may not be looking -- things might not be looking too bright, but very likely is going to be the next Speaker, come 2027.
ALLISON: Especially -- right. Because in 2026, there still are these districts that might have voted for Donald Trump, might have voted for a Democratic senator, and then voted for a Republican House Representative.
CUPP: Yes.
ALLISON: You cannot go to the extreme right of your party if you expect to win in another election. And some of those senators that aren't going to be up for reelection in 2026 don't have to be as conservative as some of these House seats over the next two years.
COLLINS: Yes.
ALLISON: It'll be interesting.
COLLINS: And as far as legacy-making comes into play, the Trump team is watching these next two years, because knowing they could lose this--
ALLISON: That's right.
COLLINS: --after two years.
[22:00:00]
CUPP: But because of Trump. There's a reason you don't pick Cabinet members from the House. President Obama chose no House members to go into his cabinet. He is shrinking his own--
ALLISON: Oh, yes.
CUPP: --his own ability to get stuff done.
ALLISON: Come on.
CUPP: Yes.
COLLINS: It is going to be one to watch.
CUPP: Yes.
COLLINS: Everyone, thank you for that.
Thank you all so much for joining us, on this very busy hour.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
