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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Source: Backpack Found In Central Park May Belong To CEO Killer; Trump Defends Hegseth In First Network Interview Since Election; Elon Musk Behind Mysterious Pro-Trump Group That Invoked RBG. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 06, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:01]
GEORGE GRASSO, RETIRED NYC CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: And I was watching the guy out of the side of my eye, and having to think if he acted, and I was going to act that I would have been in this situation, but I didn't, and he followed me on the escalator, and got into my face and threatened to do that to me, but ran off. But that's what we're all dealing with. And that was my personal experience, a week after this case.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Right. Judge Grasso, great to have you here. Joey Jackson as well.
GRASSO: Thank you.
COOPER: Just a reminder. Be sure to tune in to Laura Coates at 11 o'clock for "Manhunt: The Search for the CEO Killer."
News continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Good evening and welcome to THE SOURCE.
There is breaking news, on this Friday night, in the massive manhunt for a killer.
I want to get straight to CNN's Senior Crime and Justice Correspondent, Shimon Prokupecz, who is joining me now with new reporting.
Shimon, tell us what you're learning, this evening, as this manhunt is very much still underway.
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kaitlan, we're just learning now, my colleague, our Senior Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez, and I, that the investigators in this case have been homing in on a possible identity of a suspect.
Now, this doesn't mean that this is in any way, some person that we can identify, or that the police are ready to identify, for many reasons, as they continue to work through this investigation, and trying to both locate the person and identify the person. But they have been spending some time, trying to learn about this person, gather more information. But Kaitlan, they are not yet at a point where they can say that this person is the suspect, that this person is the one that they want to bring in and question.
But based on two sources, what we're told is that they have been homing in on an individual, trying to learn that individual's identity, more information about that person. And the search here really just goes on.
We now know that this individual has left New York City. That is what police told us today. They believe this individual has left New York City. And this manhunt has now all over this country, as police investigators are trying to locate him.
COLLINS: Yes. Obviously, a huge development, especially given just how much has happened since your major interview, earlier today, with top officials, here in New York, on the state of this investigation.
Shimon Prokupecz, on the ground, reporting for us. Thank you for that.
We're going to show you much of that interview tonight.
Because right now, police in New York City, in addition to what Shimon just reported there, as they are appearing to get closer to identifying this potential suspect here, they have also discovered what they believe to be is the backpack that that gunman was wearing, when he executed the UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson, outside the Hilton hotel, in the heart of Manhattan.
Here is the bag that was found on the left, and a look at what the shooter was wearing during the crime, on your right. Now, that bag on the left, right now, is undergoing forensic testing right this minute.
And here's what we know so far. A law enforcement source tells CNN, that backpack was found during a second sweep, tonight, in Central Park, between some of the boulders close to where that famous carousel is, that many of the tourists will recognize.
Shimon got the first interview with the top NYPD officials, earlier today. And here's why, the Chief of Detectives said, an item like that backpack is so crucial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH KENNY, NYPD CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: We were hoping would have other items in it that maybe he had forgotten to discard, but also we would want to process that forensically for fingerprints and for DNA.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, we're told that investigators are treating this backpack like it is a dead body, meaning that they are being absolutely meticulous not to damage any of the potential evidence.
No officers even touched this backpack. It was removed actually using an excavator, along with anything that was around it. That precaution was taken, we are told, given there could be DNA evidence near the bag, like maybe the suspect spit in the dirt on the ground around it. That's how careful they're being.
Our sources say even the straps of the back could be carrying the sweat from the shooter. And so, they are testing everything, right now, to gather as much as they can.
And this comes, as Shimon mentioned there, this manhunt has moved well beyond New York, as the Chief of Detectives, and the NYPD Commissioner, say that they believe he is no longer in the city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY: We have him in a taxi cab, and the taxi cab takes him up to 178th Street and Broadway, which as we know is a Port Authority bus center. Those buses are interstate buses. That's why we believe he left -- he may have left New York City.
JESSICA TISCH, NYPD COMMISSIONER: So we ask that your audience, in other parts of the country, take a good hard look at that photo that we released, and call 800-577-TIPS, if they have any information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My investigative sources tonight are:
Former New York City Police Lieutenant Darrin Porcher.
John Monaghan, the retired New York City police Captain, also the Author of "The Guns of Antwerp."
And CNN Law Enforcement Reporter, Mark Morales. Who are all joining me here at the table.
[21:05:00]
And obviously, Mark, you've been reporting on this all day. With Shimon and Evan's reporting that they just got that they are at least close to identifying someone. They were telling Shimon earlier that they didn't even have a name yet, at this point, so that's why they were widely circulating that photo.
But you've also been hearing what they were doing with this backpack, and this finding that could be crucial to all of this, this afternoon. What have you learned?
MARK MORALES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT REPORTER: Well, things move very fast, right? Just with Shimon and Evan's reporting, the ID is coming fast.
This backpack is a crucial piece that's like a lot of other crucial pieces of evidence. We could have DNA, anything could be in there that could help police identify who this person is. Because that's what the big deal is right now. They're trying to find out who they are. It's not so much a concern as whether or not he's within the city limits. That's what somebody told me. It's about that identification, because once they can get that, they can take that name and put it on a no-fly list, for instance, right? The face that we've seen so far is not enough for that.
But once they have the identification, now you can get U.S. Marshals involved. Now you can get the Regional Fugitive Task Forces involved. Now you have a nationwide manhunt where everybody can zero in on him.
COLLINS: Yes, and I was showing that picture of the park where he exited. They believe he took a taxi from there, then went to a bus terminal. And that's really the question. I know they're looking through bus manifest with this.
But on this backpack for a moment, and what it could produce. I mean, obviously the question is, what's inside of it, the DNA as well, in addition to being able to help identify. What do you think is the most critical part of this?
JOHN MONAGHAN, RETIRED NYPD CAPTAIN: Well, I think it's the DNA and the prints. Because this kid, or this shooter, has shown enough thought into this process that I doubt he would have left anything inside that's going to help us identify him.
He's taken so many different measures to lose us and whatever tail, and the cameras. He made a left and went for an alleyway. The bike was right on the next corner.
He keeps, you know, he's told us something about himself that he doesn't realize he told us. He goes left, then he ends up right. He's done that a number of times. Biked into the park, got out 75th Street, 85th Street. But his destination was 104. He keeps going one way and ends up going the other way. He's told us that about himself. We need to listen to him. I doubt he left anything in that backpack that's going to help us to identify him, other than prints or DNA.
That bus terminal. Now, I almost jumped out of my car on the way down here because it was breaking news, this afternoon. That bus terminal, they've said they saw him in a video going in, but he's not on the video coming out. I worked patrol up there, many years ago. There's a tunnel that goes for the basement, to that bus tunnel, to the New York City subway system on the 175th Street. He could have went in.
This is that -- he's told us that he does things like this. He made a left, went to an alleyway. We didn't have to. The bike was on the very next corner. He went in the park, came out at 75th Street. He's going to 104th Street. He keeps doing these different things.
He went into that bus terminal. I'm sure he left the city. But maybe, he could have doubled back the Port Authority. And if he's to Greyhound, you know, he took the Greyhound in here from Atlanta. Greyhound only goes to three cities out of that bus terminal, George Washington Bridge. Boston, Philly and D.C. There are other bus terminal -- companies working out of that terminal. He could be anywhere, that's true. But the backpack, I don't think that there's going to be a lot in there, other than DNA. And the sweat, I doubt it. He had a heavy coat on underneath the backpack.
COLLINS: Yes, is DNA guaranteed on a backpack like that? Or even, I mean, the fact that they used an excavator to pick that backpack up, and to bring it in and send it to Queens for testing. What could they find surrounding it?
DARRIN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT: Well, I understand the fact that they used an excavator because they didn't want additional contamination to that bag.
And when we look at the backpack, it looks like it's populated with items, because when you look at the puffiness, it makes me think that there's something in that backpack.
We're looking for this firearm. I don't think that the perpetrator is going to travel the streets of New York with this firearm. And this is a very specific and unique firearm. It's a B&T SIX nine-millimeter. There's not a lot of those out there. NYPD is even going up to Connecticut to speak to gun dealers, because the chances of getting a hit on this would determine an ID.
But when you mentioned, taking this out to Queens, that's where the crime scene lab for the NYPD is, and that's when they'll do the assessment for the DNA. It's an arduous task. But I genuinely believe that the NYPD is fit for the challenge, and it's just a matter of time before we take him into custody, because he's blinked one too many times.
COLLINS: Well, and I'm so glad you brought the gun up.
Because we were actually talking about this, last night, when you were here, off-camera, and I regretted that today, because I wanted you to share that.
Because you noticed something about that gun and speculated, which is The New York Times is reporting, they were talking to the Chief Detective for the NYPD, also tonight, saying maybe it is one of those veterinary guns, which is something used to put down animals that's needed. It's quite rare, and wouldn't be something that someone would typically have.
MONAGHAN: Right. It's nicknamed the Assassin's Pistol, because it's one of the quietest nine-millimeters on the market.
It has a -- it's not a silencer. It's a compressor. We call them cans in the street, right? It's integral to the gun, that was built into the gun. It's very unique, in that a semi-automatic pistol, before you can fire the first shot, you got to rack the slide. Once you've done that, fire away.
[21:10:00]
That gun, and it's the only one on the market that I know of, you pull the trigger and shoot, fire the gun, you have to rack the slide every single shot.
COLLINS: Which he does.
MONAGHAN: He does. The gun does not jam until he's fired his second shot. If you see, we don't -- we're not going to look at the whole video here, I understand why.
COLLINS: Yes, yes, I can have them pull it up in the control room to show the--
MONAGHAN: Well--
COLLINS: --video of him, where he's -- the crime is actually being committed.
There it is.
MONAGHAN: OK.
COLLINS: OK. So, walk us through what you're--
MONAGHAN: Well we have to -- after the first shot, see -- we're not going to go past that, right? You don't want to see the man getting shot, I understand?
COLLINS: Yes, this is where they've went in--
MONAGHAN: When he fires that shot, the next thing that happens is not him trying to fire his second shot, and having a gun jam. That's not what occurs.
He fires a shot, and he racks the slide. Then he fires a second time. Then he racks the slide. Then the gun jams, and you see him racking to clear it. So that gun is built to be racked after every shot. It's a very unique weapon.
The length of the barrel in that video, right there, tells us it most probably is a Veterinary Pistol, the VP -- I forget what the numbers are. It's a VP.
PORCHER: B&T.
MONAGHAN: It's a -- well it's a Veterinary Pistol.
PORCHER: B&T SIX.
MONAGHAN: Right.
PORCHER: Right. Well, the title is A B&T SIX nine-millimeter.
COLLINS: And so, with that, I mean, they haven't found the gun yet.
And you've been talking to law enforcement officials. Where -- how do they feel about that? And also, to what you were alluding to, that this could be, given what they found, now the backpack, water bottle, phone, this, and the close movements on him, that they could be close to finding him.
MORALES: Right. Well, everything's on the table in terms of a gun. And as people always say, until you have the gun, until you can actually see it and test it and run through everything, you can't be certain.
But there are, as you say, a lot of educated guesses. Because it's clear, like he's good, and he knows a lot of things. But as we've all known, in the lot of these cases, no matter how good somebody is, there's always that one little slip-up that happens. Maybe it's something more than just taking the mask down, and then something else happens, and they get caught.
Because it's so developing at such a pace, every little detail, every minute piece of evidence, is critical right now, because it just comes back to identification, because that's really what they need.
COLLINS: And he was being so careful.
MORALES: Super-careful.
COLLINS: I saw The New York Times' reporting tonight that when he was staying at that hostel, he was -- he wasn't even really pulling his mask down--
MORALES: Right.
COLLINS: --to eat food, while he was there. He'd been here for 10 days.
And so, to the theory of he goes into this bus terminal. I mean, where do investigators go from there, when he walks into a bus terminal and doesn't walk out?
PORCHER: Well, that's the million-dollar question. What's interesting about this bus terminal is you have cameras in the front, but you don't have cameras that display an individual boarding a bus. And because we don't have that, that's when I can lend deference to my counterpart, as he mentioned that there's an underground tunnel that possibly would allow him to escape.
But just going back to that hostel. He had two roommates there. So, those two roommates can be germane, in introducing evidence that can assist in an identification. Granted he had fake ID.
But we want to run that room with through crime scene. When I say run that room through crime scene, meaning we want cops with Tyvek suits, those are the white suits that come in there, and do a complete assessment of that room for DNA. And I think that that would be telling.
Because if he's sleeping in that room? Remember, he was there 10 days prior to the shooting. So, if he was sleeping in that room, spending any amount of time in that room, he's destined to leave some level of DNA. Because it's impossible for you to enter and exit a room without leaving a trace, such as a hair follicle, skin follicle, or any DNA in from any -- any -- excuse me, anything of a DNA nature, from your body.
COLLINS: What about traces of finding him getting on the bus, in terms of -- I mean, you have to buy a ticket to get on the bus. Typically, people do that on their phones, these days. He doesn't have one presumably, because he dropped one at the scene.
I mean, what does that look like in terms of, we've seen how carefully they're tracking, by camera, and where he is. What does that next step look like, going through bus manifest, if you don't know what his name is, at this point.
MONAGHAN: Well, again--
COLLINS: Or he's using a fake name.
MONAGHAN: Right. Technology takes us so far, brings us to the door. Shoe leather brings us in.
You got to go up to that bus terminal, with a whole team of experience detectives, and talk to every single person that works there. Go and get the busses that left shortly after, whether you think he's on it or not. Speak to everyone that was in that terminal. So, we're going to have detectives chasing busses all over the Tri-state area. Hopefully, we'll catch up to them within the day.
COLLINS: Because they believe he got on the bus, Wednesday morning by--
MONAGHAN: If he -- again, if he got on the bus.
COLLINS: If he got on the bus.
MONAGHAN: He went in that tunnel, is all we know. He could have went down to that tunnel, went to 175th Street, got on the A train, went down to the Port Authority. He's done things like that in the past. He's telling us, this is what he does. I wouldn't trust that he got on the bus there. You got to chase that lead down.
You got to find out which buses left, within the hour or so after he went in there, find the buses and talk to every single passenger on every boss, every driver, everyone that works there. Someone noticed him, as you said, someone saw him in that terminal.
[21:15:00]
Let's hope it's one guy, because he can't -- he's popping up all over the place. And when he has the mask down? I said this to you, the other day, Kaitlan. And John disagreed with me. I'm not a 100 percent convinced--
COLLINS: John Miller, who was here last night.
MONAGHAN: I'm sorry, John -- yes, Commissioner Miller.
I'm not completely convinced that it's the same guy.
COLLINS: But John Miller said that they had -- he had talked to them.
Because you're -- because I've actually heard this all day, today. Because you see the photo on the left. That's when he's checking into the hostel. You see the photo on the right.
MONAGHAN: Yes, it's the perfect--
COLLINS: That's at Starbucks.
But John Miller was saying that they were kind of attributing that to lighting differences, and whatnot.
MONAGHAN: Right.
COLLINS: They do -- officials think it's the same guy?
MORALES: Yes. There is no indication at this point that there is -- that there is more than one person. This is the person they're looking for.
And all the while we're having this discussion, with the backpack and all these other parts of evidence, his face, that face is out there. And somebody, at some point, is going to recognize that face, whether it's a friend, or a cousin, or somebody that lives somewhere else, they're going to say, You know what, I'm going to make this phone call.
And that's significant. Because right now, ever since they released this, the NYPD has been getting more and more tips, and they've been sifting through them. And some of them are--
COLLINS: Do they run every single tip down?
MORALES: They check everything, because you just never know. And some of them are easier to bat down than others, as they start coming in. But it just takes those right tips to come through.
COLLINS: Yes.
MONAGHAN: Can we talk about that picture?
COLLINS: Yes, go ahead.
MONAGHAN: The one on the left, I'm going to say this, he looks pretty in that picture. Look at his eye lashes. And look at the man on the right. Is he possibly disguising himself in some way?
That call that you just mentioned, we should have had it by now. That picture has been out there for almost two days. There's 10 people in the world are looking at that picture that know that man and haven't called. I don't understand why that call hasn't been made yet.
COLLINS: What's your view of that?
MORALES: It's up to those 10 people. Every time they want to--
COLLINS: Yes.
MORALES: --make that actual phone call, it's--
MONAGHAN: Yes.
MORALES: --it's up to them.
MONAGHAN: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, what's your -- I mean, they're putting this picture out there. They said to Shimon earlier, The reason we're giving you this is because we don't believe he's in New York, and we want you to share it very widely so people can make those phone calls.
PORCHER: The eyes are the same in the video or in the picture rather. The eyes do not change. When you look at the triangulation of the eyes, the mouth and the nose, when the mask is down, it seems as consistent in both pictures. So, I think it's just a matter of time.
The facial recognition is something that will also enhance or assist in the -- in the -- in looking for this individual. Because traditionally, it's, we have a database, here in the NYPD, that only consists of people that are arrested. However, the NYPD does have the ability to access social media posts. So, I think that would be an assistance, and it can be quite telling to bring this person into custody.
COLLINS: Fascinating conversation, as we're watching this very closely.
Mark Morales, great reporting today.
Much more ahead, including more of that exclusive interview with the NYPD Commissioner. What she is calling the money shot in this case.
Plus, a new interview with President-elect Donald Trump tonight, one of the rare times we've actually heard from him, on camera, since he won the election, tonight, weighing in on his embattled Defense secretary pick.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking news, as police appear to be closing in on the identity of the suspected CEO killer. Our sources tell us tonight that investigators are using thousands of leads, including facial recognition technology, to try to track him down. Police say that will be critical in the killing that appeared to be so well-planned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNY: He definitely planned this out. He arrived in New York City, obviously before the incident took place. We have him on video, prior to the incident, for almost a half an hour, walking and wandering around the hotel area before he committed this act. He knew what time the victim was going to be walking by. He knew what hotel this conference was going to be in.
TISCH: And he has been traveling and walking around the streets of New York City, largely in a mask, with his face covered. We had to go through lots of video evidence to get that one money shot of him with the mask down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My investigative sources tonight are:
Mary Ellen O'Toole, former Senior FBI Profiler and Special Agent.
And Charles Ramsey, who is the former Washington, D.C. Police Chief and Philadelphia Police Commissioner.
It's great to have both of your expertise here.
And Mary Ellen, I mean, you're an expert at profiling. And you see what she referred to there, as the money shot. It's that picture of the suspect smiling, for a brief moment, as he was checking into the hostel, as John Miller was told yesterday, because he was flirting with the woman at the front desk.
Now that we've learned, he kept his mask -- he was so meticulous about keeping his mask on, that he had it on even when he was eating meals at the hostel.
What stands out to you, as you look at this suspect?
MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER SENIOR FBI PROFILER & SPECIAL AGENT: Well, I think for me, as I follow this case, the thing that is really important, at least for me to understand, and I've seen it in so many other cases, is you never have a perfect offender. Never. No matter how well prepared they are, or how practiced they are, or how well they thought it out.
If he was perfect, NYPD would not have all the evidence that they have, right now. And when he took down that mask, to have a conversation, with the woman at the hostel, that was indicative of him letting his guard down. And then, on top of it, again, we see him going into Starbucks, possibly touching a water -- water bottle and two candy bars, and possibly leaving forensic evidence. And then, of course, finding the bag that he wore on his back.
So, these offenders can look like they are almost perfect, in how they carry out a crime, but they're really not. They do make mistakes. He's made mistakes.
COLLINS: Well, and Chief Ramsey, Shimon just reported, as we were coming on air this hour, that investigators believe they are closing in on the identity here. What does that look like, when you are at that process of getting close to being able to identify someone.
CHARLES RAMSEY, FORMER WASHINGTON, D.C. POLICE CHIEF, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER PHILADELPHIA POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, first of all, I believe they are getting close.
[21:25:00]
But you're in a race with a case that is this high-profile, because it's intense media attention. Everyone is paying attention. You're trying to avoid leaks. You want to put information out that you want to put out, that you think will help you in the case. But there's other information you don't want to have out.
So, they may very well have a name of a person of interest. But knowing who a person is, is not the same as knowing where they are. And so, they still have to get their hands on them.
So, I think eventually they'll solve this. They're taking their time. They're gathering all the evidence that they possibly can gather. Eventually there will be a trial. So, they're doing everything by the book, very carefully, as they should be doing.
But as your other guest said, he's made some mistakes, and those mistakes result in evidence. And evidence is what's ultimately going to convict him, once he's captured.
COLLINS: Well, and that's a great point, Chief. Knowing who he is doesn't mean you know where he -- where he is.
And so, on that Mary Ellen, we know police are trying to find where he was. They're trying to rule out that he fled via a plane. They saw him going into that bus terminal, earlier. As the Captain was raising earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean he got on one. We're still looking at that.
From previous suspects you studied. How did they craft a getaway plane? Is it something that kind of happens as they're going? Or is it something that's typically premeditated?
ELLEN O'TOOLE: It can be either, and it really depends on -- for me, it usually depends on how well the crime is put together in its totality. So, people that plan well might tend to have a better plan at the end. Those who don't plan at all don't have a good plan at the end.
But I think here's what's important. There's so much media attention to this case that even though he may have planned out the perfect ending, he's also under a lot of pressure right now.
The enormity, when you think about it, the enormity of having nearly the entire NYPD looking for you, is going to interfere and is going to compromise the best of plans, which means he's going to be have increased paranoia. It means that his ability to think critically, and decide step by step what to do next, that is going to be very much hampered.
His decision-making is going to decrease, in terms of what -- what is the best thing for me to do next. And that also is going to be complicated by the fact that people who do know him, at least some of them, are going to say, Don't call me for help, because I don't want you to get me in trouble. So, his plan is starting to fall together, no matter how well-planned it was in the beginning.
COLLINS: Chief Ramsey, given that, and given the photo we've now seen of his face, that we can, are you surprised -- and all the images of where he was and where he went? Are you surprised that they have not found him at this point yet?
RAMSEY: Not really. I mean, it's not that easy to find people. I mean, this isn't television. This is real life here. And it's trying to find that needle in the haystack. Sometimes you get lucky and you can do it relatively quickly. Other times, it's very difficult.
When I was Chief of D.C., we had the D.C. sniper case. It took three weeks. And most of that time we didn't even know who we were looking for. It was the last couple days that we actually had an ID on who we believe was responsible for the crimes. And so, you just never know. Each of these cases are going to unfold differently.
And you talked a little bit about the pressure that's on this individual with all of NYPD looking for him. Well, right now, you got the whole country looking for him, because they believe he's no longer there. So now, this is going nationwide. And so yes, there's a lot of pressure. How do you change your appearance? How do you do this? How do you do that?
And, quite frankly, he's getting a lot of publicity, perhaps he wants. When you look at social media, I mean, there are a lot of things that are being said on social media that aren't exactly showing a great deal of--
COLLINS: Yes.
RAMSEY: --of sympathy to the victim at all. So, who knows what's on his mind right now?
COLLINS: That's a great point there.
Obviously, we're tracking this all closely.
Chief Charles Ramsey. Mary Ellen O'Toole. Thank you both for your expertise tonight.
In other breaking news this evening, the President-elect Donald Trump is now speaking out about his Defense secretary nominee, Pete Hegseth, weighing in after directly asked whether or not he believes he has a drinking problem. We'll show you that interview next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President-elect Donald Trump, in his first major network on TV interview -- TV interview, since winning the election, is now going to bat for his embattled pick to lead the Pentagon, Pete Hegseth.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: It looks like Pete is doing well now. I mean, people were a little bit concerned. He's a young guy with a tremendous track record. Actually, went to Princeton and went to Harvard. He was a good student at both. But he loves the military, and I think people are starting to see it. So, we'll be working on his nomination, along with a lot of others.
KRISTEN WELKER, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS," NBC NEWS: Since you bring him up, do you still have confidence in Pete Hegseth?
TRUMP: Yes, I do. I really do. He's a very smart guy. I've known him through Fox, but I've known him for a long time. And he's basically a military guy. I mean, every time I talk to him, all he wants to talk about is the military. He's a military guy.
WELKER: Have you gotten assurances from senators that he's going to be confirmed?
TRUMP: No.
WELKER: Do you think he can make it?
TRUMP: No. I think he will, yes. I've had a lot of senators call me up saying he's fantastic.
WELKER: You don't drink yourself.
TRUMP: No.
WELKER: You've talked about how devastating drinking can be.
TRUMP: Yes.
WELKER: How concerned are you that the person who you picked for this top job, at the Defense Department, at least according to those who have worked with him, has struggled with drinking?
[21:35:00]
TRUMP: But I have spoken to people that know him very well, and they say he does not have a drinking problem.
WELKER: Right.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: My political sources tonight are:
The former Communications Director for Vice President Harris, Jamal Simmons.
And Republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton.
Shermichael, what did you make of what Trump had to say? I mean, he posted a Truth Social thing this morning in support of Pete Hegseth. SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
COLLINS: That was notable, obviously.
What did you make of his comments, tonight?
SINGLETON: Well, the first thing I want to say, Democrats, throughout the campaign cycle, said that Donald Trump doesn't respect institutions. He doesn't respect anything. He believes or expects that Republicans are going to rubber-stamp everything. And that's not what he said in those statements.
It was very clear that the President-elect respects the system, and respects that senators have Advise and Consent authority. It's mandated by the Constitution. And he's going to allow the process to play out.
But he still supports him. And I think this is very important for Pete, and it's also important as he's meeting with many of those Republican senators, who understand that the President is still in his corner.
I think a lot of Trump supporters have been calling their senators, saying, Look, we think Pete should be given an opportunity. Joni Ernst released a statement, today, saying, at a minimum, he should be able to go before committee and defend himself.
Someone has made an allegation. That's fine. But you also should have the authority and the right to defend yourself against said allegations. It doesn't necessarily mean things are true, because they're out there.
And so I say, give the guy an opportunity, see what his plans are to booster our military capabilities and increase our numbers, which are struggling, right now. And let's go from there.
COLLINS: Jamal, with you--
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What evidence do we have that he can do that, right? That's the problem for me, is, what do we get for having Pete Hegseth in the Defense secretary's office?
So, we know all the things that we have to manage, right? We know that he's got some trouble with alcohol. We know he's mismanaged his last job, leading an organization. We know that he's got some troubling views about women in the military. And people have questions about some of his other personal choices.
At some point, though, what is the purpose of having him there? He's not a big thinker on military, and national security. He's not somebody--
SINGLETON: How do you know that? We haven't -- we haven't heard the guy.
SIMMONS: Because if he had it, we would know. He's--
SINGLETON: We haven't heard the guy deliver his plans and strategies--
SIMMONS: And then now--
SINGLETON: --for the military, if he becomes Secretary of Defense.
SIMMONS: Because if we -- because if he had it, we would know about it, because they're trying to get this guy across the finish line. And now we find out that we got to get mommy to come and try to save him with the other senators. And I can't believe the manosphere feels good about having somebody's mom have to show up--
SINGLETON: OK. So--
SIMMONS: --to help him get a job.
SINGLETON: So let's make two points here. We already know for a fact the Pentagon cannot pass an audit. That's what competent people, according to you.
We know, number two, that our military numbers are down. That's because of competent people, according to you. You find competent (ph).
SIMMONS: And he doesn't -- and he doesn't--
SINGLETON: We know that we're behind, where hypersonic technology, missiles, Russia, China is ahead of us. Why haven't these competent people that you're saying Pete is not, does not fit that category, why haven't they accomplished any of those things?
SIMMONS: We're having -- we're having trouble--
SINGLETON: So-called competent people?
SIMMONS: We're having trouble recruiting people to come into the military. He doesn't want women to serve in combat. That's going to be a -- that's going to be a disincentive for women to join the military. How do you have somebody who doesn't want half the population to participate in the defense of our country, be responsible for recruiting people into--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: And speaking of women--
SINGLETON: But what about bringing incentive under the current leadership?
COLLINS: But speaking--
SINGLETON: Or the past leadership?
COLLINS: I think that's a good point, because I think that is what a lot of these Republican senators, who are supporting him have been arguing, well, he will change things, shake it up, see what that looks like.
But on women who have served in combat, the first female combat veteran elected to Congress is -- to the Senate, is Joni Ernst. And she posted that today. That was so crucial. It came late tonight. A lot of people may not have seen it. She said that she does believe Pete deserves a hearing, as she says there, he deserves the opportunity to lay out his vision at a fair hearing.
That does not mean she's going to vote for him.
SIMMONS: That's right.
COLLINS: But they did have a conversation after she said yesterday, their first meeting did not get them to yes.
SINGLETON: Yes, but what this suggests to me is that the door is still open. She wants to hear more. He has an opportunity to lay out his vision, that the so-called competent people that Jamal loves to cite, have not been able to accomplish, in terms of confidence in our military capability -- capabilities or the Department of Defense.
SIMMONS: Hey, I'll just say, I'm also concerned that he might be compromisable by foreign governments, because we don't know what else--
SINGLETON: What are you basing that off of, Jamal?
SIMMONS: Because we don't know what else there is to know about Pete Hegseth. And what we do know right now--
SINGLETON: Oh, come on, Jamal.
SIMMONS: --is causing us a lot of trouble.
SINGLETON: So now, you're just throwing out anything out there into the ether, and hoping it sticks to the wall.
SIMMONS: I didn't throw it out. People are suing--
SINGLETON: Well you did in this floor (ph).
SIMMONS: I'm not throwing it out.
SINGLETON: Who's saying that?
SIMMONS: Pete--
SINGLETON: What reporting supports that claim?
SIMMONS: There's reporting coming in that he drinks too much.
SINGLETON: From where?
SIMMONS: There's reporting coming in that he--
SINGLETON: So that-- SIMMONS: --mismanaged his last organization. There's reporting coming in that he's got tattoos--
SINGLETON: So--
COLLINS: But luckily--
(CROSSTALK)
SIMMONS: --trouble about what's going on--
COLLINS: No. Hang on--
SINGLETON: There are people who worked with him--
COLLINS: Hang on, Shermichael.
(CROSSTALK)
SIMMONS: That's what we don't know.
COLLINS: Luckily, all of this is going to be solved, because there's a background check by the FBI going underway as--
SIMMONS: Finally. Thank you.
COLLINS: --Pete Hegseth's attorney broke here, last night, on THE SOURCE.
Jamal Simmons. Shermichael Singleton. Thank you for a feisty Friday night.
Up next. Speaking of the Cabinet, Trump's Health secretary pick, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is expected to also be making the rounds on Capitol Hill, next week. He could be facing an uphill battle on his confirmation. He's got vaccine skepticism in his history and more.
But my next source is a Democratic governor who is supporting him. We'll talk about it next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Breaking news tonight as the USDA has now ordered more testing of the nation's milk supply, as federal officials are stepping up their efforts to track the spread of the bird flu virus in dairy cows.
Officials now say that it has spread to at least 15 states, as you can see here. At least 58 people have been infected, mostly farm workers, who I should note, have mild symptoms.
The testing is going to begin with raw or unpasteurized milk from dairy farms and processors. Pasteurization, of course, does kill the virus. But the growing popularity that we are seeing these days, of raw milk, could leave people unprotected.
One of the biggest proponents, I should note, of raw milk is President-elect Trump's pick to be the next Health secretary. That is Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He's expected to be on Capitol Hill, next week, meeting with senators, ahead of a confirmation hearing that could potentially be contentious.
But even before he gets those meetings, a prominent Democrat says that he is excited about the RFK pick, and is ready to work with him.
[21:45:00]
My source tonight is the Democratic governor of Colorado, Jared Polis.
And I should note, Governor. You're not a senator. You don't have a vote on his confirmation hearing. But you did come out.
And just given what I just laid out there, and we've heard from experts saying that there could be this bird flu outbreak in people as well, why do you think someone, who's questioned life-saving vaccines belongs in the nation's top role?
GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): Well, as you know, I supported Kamala Harris for President, and I hoped that we would be celebrating her Cabinet appointments, including this one.
We've seen a lot of Cabinet appointments that are very dangerous and threatening to the country, from the incoming President. And I always try to look at the glass as half full. So, with regard to Kennedy in particular, he said some false and outright dangerous claims about vaccines. And vaccines have saved millions of lives.
At the same time, we have to remember, the last time Trump was president, he appointed a pharmaceutical lobbyist as the head of this agency, literally the fox guarding the henhouse.
I truly believe that RFK is not beholden to Big Pharma. I think he's an independent voice. And I think he's somebody who means what he says, when he cares about reducing chronic disease through better nutrition. And if you look at many of the conditions that affect Americans, whether it's diabetes, heart disease, or even cancer, a lot of it is caused by diet, nutrition and behavior. And if he focuses on that, he can do some good for public health.
And we have to make sure that as he goes before Congress, they question him on that, to talk about what his intentions are--
COLLINS: So you're--
POLIS: --as the next HHS secretary.
COLLINS: --you're kind of grading him on a scale. Is that how you would put it?
POLIS: Well, none of these are President-elect Kamala Harris' appointments, right? I worked very hard, to try to get Kamala Harris to be president, and I was hoping we'd have wonderful appointments at the agency level.
We have some that are outright threats to national security. You covered the potential Defense secretary. Doesn't seem to be qualified. That's not my area of expertise. But again, hasn't run large organizations.
COLLINS: Yes.
POLIS: And has seemed to have failed in the organizations he has run.
With regard to RFK, I think the question that I asked when I heard about this appointment, Is it better than a pharmaceutical lobbyist? And I believe, unequivocally, the answer is yes.
COLLINS: Have you heard--
POLIS: We experienced that for four years, and we got nowhere on taking on Big Pharma.
COLLINS: Have you heard from RFK Jr., since you came out and said that you were excited about his selection?
POLIS: No. Other than a public tweet thanking me, I haven't heard from him, personally. Would obviously be happy to talk to him, if he called. I've certainly let our senators know my opinions.
COLLINS: Yes.
POLIS: But I think, look, a lot of senators are going to have good questions to ask, both of him, as well as the other Cabinet nominees, to try to find a way to move forward with our country.
COLLINS: Yes, well, my question for you, given what you just laid out there, saying, you're essentially hoping he'll push some of the things that he's been talking about, and not what he's said about vaccines.
You tweeted on August 25th, and said, Not sure how bringing back Measles and Polio makes anyone more healthy.
What changed from August 25th to now, in your view of RFK Jr.?
POLIS: Well, obviously, I would strongly oppose RFK or anybody trying to get in the way of Measles or Polio vaccines. And I don't think he will. Those are good questions for senators to ask him, to confirm, in fact, that that's not what he's going to use that office for. But I would be strongly opposed to that.
And if he were to state that he were to use the office to end vaccination? And he's actually quite said the opposite. He's not going to take on vaccinations. But if he were, that would be stuff that would hurt the public health.
COLLINS: Right. But he has this very lengthy history of not just questioning vaccines. He's outright said, at times, that he doesn't think people should get vaccinated. Or, he said that there's no safe and effective vaccine, as he was quoted on a podcast, once saying. POLIS: Well--
COLLINS: So, I guess, people will look at this and say, Why do you think he's changed his views now? I mean, he's a grown man. And I don't think just because -- maybe if he goes in front of these senators, and doesn't spout his conspiracy theories, that he's pushed before, that doesn't mean he doesn't still believe them, or would echo them from the nation's top--
POLIS: Well, look, I'm not--
COLLINS: --health role.
POLIS: I'm not here -- we're not going to relitigate the election. My candidate lost. The candidate who won, President-elect Donald Trump has said many bizarre, untrue things. We can talk about them for hours, the things he said. He--
COLLINS: But you are the one who said you're excited about RFK Jr. That's why I'm asking.
POLIS: Oh, sure. Well, again, compared to the pharmaceutical lobbyist, he appointed last time, this is somebody who will take on Big Pharma, and is absolutely not a fox guarding a henhouse.
This is somebody that we have great opportunities to work with, on improving nutrition, on addressing chronic disease, and of course, somebody who is pro-climate, pro-choice, essentially shares our Democratic values. Obviously, was a Democratic candidate for president as well, running in the primary against Joe Biden.
COLLINS: But you advocated for people to get the vaccine when you were governor or -- of course, you're still governor. But during the pandemic.
Do you believe that Secretary RFK Jr. would advocate for people to get the COVID vaccine if there was a -- if we were back in 2021?
POLIS: Well, I was -- I was vaccinated with my boosters recently as now about a month ago, for COVID as well as the flu.
[21:50:00]
And I would hope that HHS Director Kennedy would also continue to make sure to support vaccinations, to help give people the tools they need to protect themselves.
He's really talked about something, which I also agree with, which is choice. And of course, it should be people's choice to get vaccinated. But when you present them with the facts, the overwhelming science, and it substantially reduces your risk of severe illness or death? People, by and large, make the right choices. I have, as my family has, and as most Americans have.
COLLINS: Yes. We've seen a lot of them, who also chose not to.
But obviously, a lot more to discuss, as we will, during the confirmation hearings, going forward.
Governor Jared Polis, as always, thank you for your time. Thanks for joining us.
Up next. We now know who was behind a mysterious Super PAC that used Ruth Bader Ginsburg's name and her legacy in advocating for Donald Trump. It was Elon Musk.
We're going to speak to RBG's granddaughter, live, after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: We knew that the world's richest man, Elon Musk, had spent a lot of money to help Donald Trump get elected. But now we are learning just how much. It was over a quarter of a $1 billion.
And $20 million of that went to prop up a mysterious group that was named after the late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. It's called the RBG PAC. And until now, we didn't know who was funding it. But it tried to convince voters that the famously liberal justice and Trump actually agreed on abortion.
They did not. She actually despised Trump. But it was the 11th-hour effort to help Trump win, on a vulnerable issue, and it was one that infuriated her family.
My source tonight is Ruth Bader Ginsburg's granddaughter, Clara Spera, who called the Super PAC quote, Nothing short of appalling.
And that was before you knew who was funding it.
CLARA SPERA, RUTH BADER GINSBURG'S GRANDDAUGHTER: Yes.
COLLINS: What went through your mind when you found out this week that it was -- Elon Musk was the sole funder of this entire PAC?
SPERA: Yes, I mean, it was both surprising and not. Elon Musk put so much money into Donald Trump's reelection campaign that it's not surprising that he was behind this.
I do think it's interesting that the PAC was set up and funded in such a way that the funder wouldn't be revealed until after the election. I think if you stand so firmly behind your man, why are you hiding that you're funding this aspect of the campaign well?
COLLINS: And I was just thinking, you know, if you went to the website, you could see it's an image of Trump and your grandmother side by side. It has this text in all-caps that said, GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE.
I mean, Trump did put the three justices on the Supreme Court, who were responsible for making the court overturn Roe versus Wade.
What do you think your grandmother would think of seeing an image like that?
SPERA: Yes, well, he wasn't just responsible for putting them on the court. He gloated about the fact that they did overturn Roe v. Wade, and that was part of the reason that these three were selected, was for that very purpose.
And so, I think that my grandmother, much like her family, would have been appalled and, frankly, disgusted that she would be placed, in such an image, and there was this false equivalency created between them, because they did not agree on many things, including abortion.
COLLINS: So safe to say, great minds do not think alike in that situation?
SPERA: And I'm not sure how many -- I don't know that there's more than one great mind in that image, to be honest.
COLLINS: CNN had this amazing documentary on her life. And just all of the obstacles she overcame, the adversary, the challenges that she faced, in just her life, to go where she was, and make it to the Supreme Court. You're featured in that you know. She's not just this liberal icon to you. She's your Bubby.
And I just wonder what it is like for your family, on a personal level, to see people using her name and her likeness in this way.
SPERA: It's upsetting, but it is the exception, not the rule.
For the most part, people who invoke my grandmother do so with great respect. They revere her, and they recognize that her advocacy, which was built off of the advocacy of women who came before her, really helped establish gender equality in this country. And that's what makes me really proud. So, I try to focus more on that, than on these types of instances.
COLLINS: Well, and just looking at this. I mean, you're an attorney, a lawyer yourself. How do you think she view the Supreme Court? I mean, the way we talk about its influence on politics--
SPERA: Yes.
COLLINS: --and from the immunity decision to where we are now, how do you think she'd see the Supreme Court as it stands today?
SPERA: It's changed so fundamentally since her death, both in terms of the makeup of the court, but also how political it has at least been perceived to become.
And I think that would upset her greatly, because she was really an institutionalist, and believed in the independence of the court, and believed in justices' ability to divorce their own personal views from the outcomes in cases. And I'm not sure how true that is anymore.
COLLINS: Yes, and believing in it in this institutional sense, I mean, it didn't mean she had agreed with everyone on the court. But she had close relationships with people, who fundamentally they had completely different ideologies, on the law, and on the cases before them at times.
SPERA: Yes. And to be fair, I do think that is somewhat still true within the court. My understanding is that the justices today do tend to get along, even those that don't align ideologically. But their -- the political perception of the court can't be denied.
COLLINS: Does it worry you that with Trump's reelection, I mean, he could very well be able to appoint more justices to the Supreme Court.
SPERA: Certainly. And the conservatives have a super-majority already on the court, and the havoc that they can wreak, not just on reproductive liberties and rights, but civil rights more generally, is extremely concerning for an attorney in my position, and should be concerning for the whole of the country.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Clara Spera, it's great to have your expertise. And thank you for coming on to talk about something that's just so personal for you and your family. I appreciate that.
SPERA: Thanks so much for having me.
COLLINS: It's great to have you.
Thank you all so much for joining us on this very busy hour.
We'll continue to track the latest updates in the search for the killer of the CEO, as authorities now say he has left New York.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" is up next.
