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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Suspected CEO Killer Appears In Court, Held Without Bail; Gabbard: "Wholeheartedly" Agrees With Trump On Syria; Trump: No Special Prosecutor "Unless I Find Something That I Think Is Reasonable." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 09, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are mindful -- we are mindful that there are Americans in Syria, including those who reside there, as well as Austin Tice, who was taken captive more than 12 years ago. We remain committed to returning him to his family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Well, on Friday, before the regime had clearly fallen, members of the Tice family expressed some frustration with the answers they've gotten from the Biden administration. This morning, Austin Tice's sister, Megan (ph), told CNN that the administration is, quote, extremely involved.
We'll continue to follow the latest on Austin Tice.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
We are live on Capitol Hill, where President-elect Trump's top Cabinet picks have been making their cases to Republican senators. One of them who even Trump acknowledged as controversial, is gaining key support this evening.
And we also have breaking news this hour, as the suspect in the UnitedHealthcare CEO's murder was in court tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, we are learning new details about what happened in the moments that authorities captured the suspect in the killing of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
Right now, 26-year-old Luigi Mangione is being held in Pennsylvania, arraigned this evening on five forgery and gun charges.
But it was just after 09:00 a.m. today when he was arrested at a McDonald's, more than 250 miles from Manhattan. An employee there had tipped off authorities after recognizing him from pictures that had been on the news. When police arrived, he was wearing a medical mask, and sitting at the back of the restaurant in front of his laptop.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEPUTY CHIEF DEREK SWOPE, ALTOONA, PA: It was a peaceful arrest, first and foremost. The officer quickly recognized the male as the suspect from the shooting. And within several minutes -- seconds of the first contact, he had asked the suspect if he had been in New York City recently, and that really invoked a physical reaction from the suspect. He became visibly nervous, kind of shaking, at that question, and he didn't really answer it directly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Mangione was found with multiple fake IDs and a firearm. Asked why he initially gave authorities a fake name when they went up to him, he later responded, quote, I clearly shouldn't have.
Now, this is the ghost gun that officials say they recovered from his backpack. Police say it's 3D-printed, and also is consistent with the weapon that was used to shoot Brian Thompson.
New York Police and the FBI both arrived tonight, in Altoona, Pennsylvania to question the Ivy League-educated software engineer, who hails from a prominent Baltimore family.
One thing that is likely to come up, they are his handwritten rant where he rails against the health care industry, and says at one point, quote, "These parasites had it coming." "I do apologize for any strife and trauma, but it had to be done."
CNN's Danny Freeman was in court with the suspect, this evening, and joins me now.
Danny, I mean, there was just a moment, where we saw him being escorted into that courthouse where he was arraigned. Tell us what it was like inside the courtroom this evening.
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kaitlan.
And I was one of only a handful of reporters who was actually inside that courtroom, and we watched as well, as Luigi Mangione was walked in there. He had a blue shirt on, blue jeans as well. He was handcuffed. He was restrained. He seemed distressed, when he walked into that courtroom. But during the majority of that court proceeding, he had his brow furrowed.
And really, Kaitlan, at the heart of this particular hearing was a question of identity. You mentioned that in the complaint, which was read aloud to Mr. Mangione, in that courtroom.
The police officers when they encountered him at the McDonald's, they asked, Why did you lie to us about your name? And he said, as he noted, I clearly shouldn't have. The judge then pressed Mangione in court about a number of things relating to his identity. He made Mangione confirm, that is his actual real name. Mangione also said that initially, his residence was in Maryland. While the judge pushed him even further, and finally, Mangione said, Well, I have various addresses, and said, he also lives in Honolulu.
He said that he worked for three years as a data engineer up until last year. And he also told the court that he has no drug or mental health problems that the court should know about.
But Kaitlan, one last thing that I'll note here is one of the most interesting parts that animated Mangione, inside that courtroom. During the discussion of bail, the prosecutor detailed a lot of things, we've been mentioning. The ghost gun found on him, the silencer found on him. But the prosecutors also highlighted about $10,000, $8,000 in U.S. dollars, and then $2,000 in foreign currency that was found on his person.
[21:05:00]
Also, they claim that he had a Faraday bag, which is basically a bag use to conceal wireless transmission, say, from your phone or laptop. Well, the prosecutor said, that was an indication of criminal sophistication and reason why they should hold him on bail.
Mangione actually said at the end of that speech, by the prosecution, I'd like to correct two things. First, I don't know where any of that money came from. I'm not sure if it was planted. And also, that bag was waterproof. So, I don't know about criminal sophistication.
Again, Kaitlan, just fascinating hearing from the defendant's mouth, about some of these smaller issues when, again, he's looking potentially when this warrant from New York comes, at a potential murder charge.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Danny, what did his -- what did his voice sound like? Was he quiet? Was -- did he -- did he sound confident, you know? What did you pick up from that on?
FREEMAN: Yes, frankly, he did not seem quiet. I think when he came into the courtroom, he seemed timid, like I said, and distressed, as I said earlier.
But he spoke very clearly into the microphone. He made sure that his voice was heard. Nobody had to lean in to hear what he was saying. He wanted his voice to be heard.
It was just interesting, the things that he specifically wanted to say, when he had his moment in front of not only that judge, but in front of the media as well.
COLLINS: Yes, that's fascinating.
Danny Freeman, I'm so glad you were there for us. Thank you for that.
My inside sources to break all of that down tonight are:
CNN's John Miller, who served as the Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism for the New York Police Department.
Also, Darrin Porcher, former Lieutenant at the NYPD.
And Chris Swecker, also here, the former FBI Assistant Director.
So, we have the perfect cast here to break it down.
And John, I'll start with you, because you've been doing so much reporting on this. And you're also learning tonight that he actually mentioned, this suspect actually mentioned, UnitedHealthcare in this handwritten manifesto. Tell us what else was in that document that authorities now have in their possession.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY COMM. OF INTELLIGENCE & COUNTERTERRORISM, NYPD: Well, thanks.
And it's great to be here with Darrin and Chris, my colleagues from the NYPD and the FBI.
But it's really interesting note, because it is a note that takes -- it begins with the tone of resignation, right?
The note is written with a pitch and tone, I am told, from people who have looked at it, on the assumption that he's either been captured and they have found the note, or even that he's been killed, and the note is his telling of the story.
But it starts off with, I'm sorry for any strife or trauma this has caused, but it had to be done. These parasites had it coming.
Note that parasites is plural, and we're talking about a case where he is allegedly behind the killing of one individual. It begs the question, was he on the way to do more or another hit somewhere else, maybe in Pennsylvania.
But the note goes on to really frame the health care industry, and United in particular. He refers to it as United. As growing too fast, making too much money and ripping off too many people.
COLLINS: Yes, and so, I mean, that's what we're learning about what he wrote.
I also just want to note, we just have a new photo of him, of the suspect inside his holding cell. As you can see, he's standing there, his arms by his side, no real expression on his face, as he now is in that cinder block cell. It looks relatively small. One of you please weigh in and tell me if that's standard.
Because Darrin, when you're looking at this. And we see these photos tonight. Initially, they said he had been cooperative, that it was a peaceful arrest. But I noticed, during that press conference tonight, they said he no longer is.
So how are authorities, what would they be doing behind-the-scenes, right now, if he's no longer being cooperative?
DARRIN PORCHER, RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT, CRIMINAL JUSTICE EXPERT: Well, if he's no longer cooperative, there's not that much that you can do.
One may argue that he invoked this absolute right to counsel. When I say absolute right to counsel, meaning he wants a lawyer. And if he, quote-unquote, lawyers up, then there's not really much that you can ask.
We want to try to elicit as much information as possible from these individuals before the actual warrant is lodged. Because once the warrant from the NYPD, or the City of New York, is lodged, against this individual, then he has the absolute right to counsel.
So now, we're kind of conducting this backwards investigation, if you may want to refer to it as that. That backwards investigation consists of when the actual crime occurred, when he shot the CEO of U.S. health care, up to and including this point. We're going to look at all of those components in between, and we're going to unmask as much discovery as possible to present, because we're going to get the probable cause for arrest.
But now the focal point would be the court proceeding, because we want to gain a conviction. And that standard of proof for conviction is beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's the pathway that we're looking towards, at this point.
COLLINS: Well, and Chris, it's also fascinating to learn just more about him. I mean, we obviously knew he was young, from the photos that we had seen. But there was very little, including his name that anyone knew until today.
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I mean, he's 26-years-old. He is an Ivy League grad. He's a former high school valedictorian. You can -- we're going to play some of his speech in a moment. He's from a prominent Baltimore family.
What do you make of the profile of this suspect that we're learning about now?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION: Yes, well, the evidence thus far has already told a story. I mean, before they identified him, we had a good deal of information, a lot of forensic evidence.
What we're seeing now, just coming out, in the aftermath of his arrest, is that the picture of somebody who's intelligent. He's bright. He's got a couple of degrees. He's a true believer. And apparently, he has his cause, like the Unabomber did, and others like him, Eric Rudolph, and others, they always seem to have some deeply- held ideology. And that, as was just mentioned, I mean, we're going to build out his social network, his electronic devices, his friends, his family, and the picture will emerge in greater, in more clarity tomorrow.
But we have an ideologue here, someone who felt so strongly that he went out and killed a human being. And maybe, as John points out, maybe there were other targets. So, I mean, it begs the question, I mentioned it earlier, whether this falls under the rubric of domestic terrorism, whether he's that deeply steeped in his ideology that he wants to go out and commit violence to affect change.
COLLINS: Well, and John, on that, I mean, you were looking at his social media. I think everyone immediately started looking that up, you know? In 2024, that's what people do. And his name comes out.
There was at one point that you found he wrote a book review on The Unabomber's Manifesto. And part of what he said in that review was he said, quote, "He was a violent individual - rightfully imprisoned - who maimed innocent people. While these actions tend to be characterized as those of a crazy luddite, however, they are more accurately seen as those of an extreme political revolutionary."
I mean, I imagine that, officials are combing through everything he's posted online, anything certainly like that.
JOHN MILLER: They are. And that was startling, because that was only January of 2024, where you can see he had come around to the idea that some righteous warrior was the one, who would stand up individually, alone, against greed, identifying with the Unabomber.
But, I mean, if a behavioral scientist, and believe me, they will, from the FBI, was looking at this offender, they would see the kind of -- the kind of things that they've seen in other offenders. The ego and the narcissism that says, This is my responsibility alone to go do this.
And thinking back on that note, it was almost written with the idea of, Once I go on this mission -- or these missions, we still don't know -- I pretty much understand, I can't go home again, I won't be able to resume my normal life. Or maybe he thought he could. But the note seems to indicate he felt that this was a pathway to an end.
COLLINS: Yes, Darrin, can I just get a final thought from you on, authorities said this morning, when, after they had arrested him, that he was not on their radar. Does that indicate to you that no one from his family or his friends saw these photos, recognized him, and called the police? Or can we not read into that?
PORCHER: Well, it's difficult to discern if people in his family knew or they didn't know.
But the reality is, we had tips, and the public is the greatest asset for police, and it was that McDonald's worker that brought this to fruition, based on what they saw in the poster that was plastered out through the NYPD that showed the image of his face when he let down his guard and showed his face. So, that being said, I think that is fortunate that we have that symbiotic relationship with police and community.
And just one quick point. I see strong parallels between Bryan Kohberger, and the suspect in this case, as it relates to the sensationalism of individuals that don't have a criminal record. But they're very bright. But they seem enamored by the aspect of murder.
And I'm hopeful that we can get the full story when this case is presented in court.
COLLINS: Yes, interesting point.
Thank you all for being here. It's been so great to have your expertise on this.
And we have much more, next, on what we are learning about this suspect, including his family. They are a prominent family. They own a nursing home chain in Maryland. We're going to speak to a longtime Baltimore investigative reporter about that shortly.
And also, we're hearing the suspects voice for the first time, from his valedictorian speech at his private high school's graduation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIGI MANGIONE, CEO KILLING SUSPECT: I'm honored to be speaking to you all today on behalf of the Gilman class of 2016.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: This just in. Moments ago, we have the mugshot of the suspect in the killing of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, as you can see him here. That is the 26-year-old that was arrested this morning at a McDonald's, in Altoona, Pennsylvania.
And this comes, tonight, as we are hearing from a former roommate of Luigi Mangione's, the suspect, and the roommate talking about his surprise at his arrest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
R.J. MARTIN, LIVED WITH CEO KILLING SUSPECT LUIGI MANGIONE: Beyond shock. It's unimaginable. You know, I was roommates with him, friends, hiked, went to yoga. He was, you know, did his best to be athletic. And unfathomable, knowing the kind, you know, person that I saw and knew.
Never once talked about guns. Never once talked about violence. He was absolutely a not violent person, as far as I could tell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We should note, Mangione is a young, he's an Ivy League- educated software engineer. He had multiple addresses, as you heard Danny talking about, what he was questioned about in court today.
He hails from a prominent family, well-known near area where I am not far from now, in Baltimore, Maryland. He's the grandson of a philanthropist, who built a real estate empire that included nursing home facilities around Maryland, two country clubs in the Baltimore suburbs area as well.
My next source tonight is Jayne Miller. She is a longtime Baltimore investigative reporter.
And it's great to have you here.
[21:20:00]
Because I think that's the question here, as we're looking at the profile of Luigi Mangione. What can you tell us about his family, and about just the family's presence in Baltimore?
JAYNE MILLER, LONGTIME BALTIMORE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, FORMER CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, WBAL-TV: Well, Kaitlan, the family is somewhat well-known. They have a, as you mentioned, a real business enterprise. But they also have very public facilities. The two of the country clubs that are owned, they're private to a degree.
The Turf Valley Country Club is really a Hotel Conference Center. So a lot of people use it. They are familiar with it. They attend there. There are two golf courses there. And the area around it is now being developed as well. This is in the Ellicott City area of Maryland and Howard County, which is where a lot of the businesses of the family were really centered.
There's also the Turf Valley or the -- the Hayfields Country Club, in northern Baltimore County, which is also familiar to people.
And as you mentioned, the patriarch of the family founded a nursing home. And nursing home, there are several nursing home facilities. I believe there are seven, in the chain, in the Baltimore region. So, this was a family that was -- not only built a business empire, but was also somewhat known.
I can tell you today, when this news broke, and no one could see this coming. Someone on social media said, Jayne, who could see this coming, a Mangione from Baltimore? And I mean, no question about it.
But the family is known, and it has built a business enterprise. It's a large family. They're all involved in, in some of the family businesses. I think there are 37 grandchildren of the patriarch. And so this was a--
COLLINS: Wow. 37?
JAYNE MILLER: This was a shock--
COLLINS: So this is a--
JAYNE MILLER: --to this area. No question. COLLINS: So, this is a really large family in the area. 37 grandchildren?
JAYNE MILLER: I think the patriarch -- yes, Nicholas Mangione is the patriarch of the family. Had 37 grandchildren -- 10 children and 37 grandchildren. And that, like I said, they--
COLLINS: And so, I have--
JAYNE MILLER: It's a sprawling business enterprise. And most of the family members are involved with it in some -- in some fashion.
COLLINS: Yes. Because, obviously we're here in Washington. I was here, for eight and a half years. And there was just total shock today, from a lot of people that I knew, who grew up in the Baltimore area, who were saying, I went to school with him, or worked with him in his early years. And just were having that exact reaction that you heard from there earlier, just total -- total shock over this.
JAYNE MILLER: Well, he also attended Gilman, which is a premier private school. And a lot of people very familiar with it. Obviously, his classmates, a lot of people attend Gilman.
So, yes, all around, I mean, this was just something that was, I mean, I got a -- I think I got a text, as soon as the news broke, from someone who somewhat knows the family. And was just, I was like, What? And, obviously, then, tried to get more information.
But it was clearly a startling piece of information for--
COLLINS: Yes.
JAYNE MILLER: --people in the Baltimore region, who are familiar with the family.
COLLINS: Jayne, obviously, as you're learning more, reporting more, please keep us updated. Thank you for joining us tonight.
And I should note that this evening, as the -- Luigi Mangione is facing forgery and firearm charges in Pennsylvania, it's coming as New York prosecutors are preparing more charges this evening.
My legal source on this tonight is Elliot Williams, who is a former federal prosecutor.
And Elliot, when he was in court earlier today, he was arraigned on those other charges. Why was he not yet charged for the murder of Brian Thompson, if he had a weapon consistent with that, all of the things that went along with the murder that we saw?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: There's a couple of reasons why. So, in New York, they're probably still building the case.
But more to the point, he was arrested today in Pennsylvania. That's what the Pennsylvania authorities were able to charge him with. They can't charge him with the murder, because, as of right now, he's a guy that showed up in a McDonald's with a backpack with a firearm in it.
Certainly, I would think that homicide charges are coming in New York. I think that's just a matter of time, once they get him to the -- back to the state.
COLLINS: You know what's so fascinating, was, so Danny Freeman, who was just one of a few reporters, inside the court this morning, and he said -- or this evening, that the prosecutors were saying, he was found with eight grand in cash, and that he had a Faraday bag, which is basically, if you put your cell phone in it, it doesn't -- you can't pick up, there's a cell phone in the area and it can't -- it doesn't transmit any kind of signal, blocks the electromagnetic data.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: One, he disputed, he claimed the cash was maybe planted on him, and then he argued that the bag was because it was waterproof.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: What did you make of those points?
WILLIAMS: It doesn't -- it doesn't bode well for him. Now, certainly, none of those things are illegal to have. And he may well have had a waterproof bag.
[21:25:00]
But in building cases, those are the kinds of things that prosecutors and investigators will look for, for establishing what might have been this person's state of mind, and was he attempting to take steps to hide or cover those tracks. And things like lots of cash and not using credit cards, but also waterproof products, nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't smell right.
COLLINS: Well, and then he had the 3D-printed gun and the suppressor silencer--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --that they also said, in the complaint, as I was reading through it tonight, was 3D-printed. I mean, what do you -- what does -- how does that hold up? Because typically, criminals, we see them--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --shed incriminating materials that they may have on them, like a gun.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: And in this situation, he has a handwritten manifesto and guns on him.
WILLIAMS: Yes. It's certainly not unlawful, on its face, to have a 3D- printed firearm. The Supreme Court is right across the street from here right now, actually, is weighing that very question right now, how exactly to regulate them.
Now, the simple fact is, the bigger issue for him is that he didn't have a license for it. And he was in Pennsylvania carrying a firearm outside of his home, not having a license. So that, right there is a crime, and he could be charged with it in Pennsylvania.
Also, back in New York, because it was clear, assuming he is the defendant and is charged there, that individual was carrying a weapon in New York, unlawful.
COLLINS: Well, and Governor Shapiro, the Pennsylvania governor, was at that press conference tonight. He was criticizing the ghost gun. Obviously, that has been something that's been very difficult. The White House has tried to fight that issue, as you noted, at the Supreme Court.
But the Governor also weighed in on people who have been praising this suspect, or saying maybe he's got a point because of issues with the health care industry, which I obviously don't think people would dispute health care industry problems.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: But the people who are saying positive things about them.
Listen to what the governor had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): The person, the suspect here, who shot at that CEO and killed that CEO, is a coward, not a hero.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Could that be an issue? Could this fascination with the suspect that we have seen online in a way that I don't know that I've seen in a very long time, could that be something that prosecutors keep in mind when they're assembling a jury?
WILLIAMS: Certainly. And they will ask about it, and try to get a sense of people's opinions. Now, look, you have every right in America to have opinions about any industry. You don't have a right to kill anybody. Prosecutors will probe that, and make sure that they can try to get a jury that's fair, and I'm confident that they could.
COLLINS: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: It's a fascinating case.
WILLIAMS: Fascinating.
COLLINS: Elliot Williams, thank you for joining us on that.
WILLIAMS: Thanks, Kaitlan. COLLINS: And make sure you tune in tonight, because later this evening, here on CNN, there's going to be a special edition of "LAURA COATES LIVE." "CAPTURED: ARREST IN CEO KILLER MANHUNT." Laura and her team of experts will look at how the gunman was -- the suspected gunman was found, and a possible motive. That is tonight, 11:00 p.m. Eastern. You don't want to miss it.
Coming up, here on THE SOURCE. President-elect Donald Trump's pick for Director of National Intelligence is here on Capitol Hill today. She once traveled to Syria to meet with Bashar al-Assad. So what is Tulsi Gabbard now saying, that the dictator's brutal regime is over.
We're live here with an update on those meetings with senators.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're back now, live on Capitol Hill, here in Washington, where, even at this late hour, the place is buzzing with action, as some of the President-elect's more controversial Cabinet picks are trying to lock down support this evening.
Tulsi Gabbard is Trump's pick to be the Director of National Intelligence. She's been facing some renewed scrutiny over her past defense of the now-toppled regime of Bashar al-Assad, in Syria, including a meeting that she had with Assad during an unannounced trip that she took there in 2017.
With Assad now having fled to Moscow, and to the open arms of Vladimir Putin, Gabbard said this about Trump's demand that the U.S. should stay out of the fight in Syria.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TULSI GABBARD, TRUMP PICK FOR DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I stand in full support and wholeheartedly agree with the statements that President Trump has made over these last few days, with regards to the developments in Syria. My own views and experiences have been shaped by my multiple deployments and seeing firsthand the cost of war and the threat of Islamist terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Neither Trump nor Tulsi Gabbard has said anything about the U.S. troops, who are still in Syria. That's a major question, this evening.
I should note, the former Congresswoman, while she was here on Capitol Hill, did not answer questions from reporters, when she was asked about her own relationship with the now-ousted Syrian dictator.
My source here tonight is the newly reelected Deputy Chair of the House Progressive Caucus, Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar of Minnesota.
It's great to have you here.
On Tulsi Gabbard. You obviously served in the House with her. You overlapped briefly for a little bit of time. You have your own history with her.
Given her past, and her meeting with Assad, after he gassed his own people, what she has said about his rule. How do you feel about her potentially overseeing the nation's top intelligence agencies?
REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): I mean, I don't obviously get a vote--
COLLINS: Right.
OMAR: --on her confirmation.
But yes, of course, some of those stances that she has taken are a little alarming. And I think the intelligence community will probably be really worried about having a director that has not always been clear-eyed about where our priorities are, as a country, and the challenges that we face throughout the world.
COLLINS: Yes, and on that, just looking at the remarkable turn of events, over the last 48 hours or so, what's happened in Syria. She said today she agreed with President-elect Trump, and what he said. He said the U.S. should stay out of Syria.
What do you make of the Biden administration's response? The 75 strikes that we've seen on Syria, and its targets there, in the last -- you know, since this happened.
[21:35:00]
OMAR: I mean, this is a watershed moment for the people of Syria. And we know that the Assad regime will forever be known as one of the most brutal and repressive dictatorships in our lifetime.
And I am, as someone who was displaced, because a dictator was overthrown in my own home country of Somalia, and eventually experienced violence, I am really worried about what the future holds for the Syrian people. And I do hope that the international community stands with them, as they try to figure out a path forward, that as they build democratic institutions, as they think about what it means to rebuild infrastructure.
I don't believe it is necessary for us, to militarily be involved. I think that is a detriment to any progress that they are seeking. The Syrian people need to build trust within themselves. They have proven to be resilient and determined, to carve out their own future. And we should guide and help what that future looks like. But I don't think we should be the ones determining what that future should look like.
COLLINS: OK. So, it sounds like you disapprove -- you don't approve of the Biden administration's strikes in Syria.
But you just mentioned your own history. And that -- I thought about that yesterday, when I was listening to Trump's interview that he did with "Meet the Press," where he was talking about a renewed effort to end birthright citizenship. He talked about doing this in his first term. Obviously, he can't unilaterally do this, given it's changing the Constitution, and it's the 14th Amendment.
But as a naturalized citizen, I wonder how you view of Trump -- what your view of Trump's effort to try to get rid of that is?
OMAR: Yes, I mean, it's a cornerstone to who we are, as Americans.
I vividly remember, when we got wind of the fact that we would get resettlement to the United States, in that refugee camp in Mombasa, Kenya, my grandfather saying, We're not going to accept resettlement in any other countries, we want to go to America. Because he said, America is where eventually everyone becomes an American.
And I think that is one of the reasons that we remain to be a beacon of hope. We think of ourselves as a nation of immigrants. Everyone, unless you are Native American or you came on a slave ship, eventually went through a process to become an American. And so, I think this idea that we are not going to allow people that are born in the United States to become citizen, and not give people pathways to citizenship.
And even worse, when he talks about deportation, he is talking about deporting people with their children who were born in the United States. That is, nearly 50 percent of everyone that is undocumented in this country has at least one child, right? Family -- mixed family -- mixed-status families are very common in the United States.
COLLINS: Yes.
OMAR: That is uprooting a 16-year-old that is in -- in high school, planning for the college they're going to go to, and sending them to a country they know nothing about, and have not been. That is what he is planning to do to Americans. And that is not only going to destabilize so many communities, but it will create an outright fear in so many people.
Because how are you even going to find people? How do you create the distinction? Are they going to pull people over that look like they might be an immigrant? Are they going to snatch people from their workplaces? Are they going to snatch people--
COLLINS: Yes.
OMAR: --from their places of worship?
COLLINS: I want people to listen to that comment from Trump, about how you -- what you would do with entire families of mixed immigration status.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: We don't have to separate families.
KRISTEN WELKER, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS," NBC NEWS: Yes. TRUMP: We'll send the whole family, very humanely, back to the country where they came. That way the family's not separated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But Democrats are the minority, a slim minority. But what does your party do about this, if Trump does try to do that?
OMAR: Well, we do what we have done in his previous term. This is why we were warning people we know what he is capable of.
We resist. We work with our attorney generals in states, we work with our governors, we work with our mayors. We have to do everything that we can. In Minnesota, there are so many counties, where the county does not have a relationship with ICE, where they are not identifying folks through that system.
[21:40:00]
So, we have to find ways to implement programs, and carry out protections, and boost advocacy, and fight like we've never fought before, to make sure our communities remain safe and stable.
COLLINS: Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, great to have you, on set here tonight. Thank you.
OMAR: Yes. Thank you very much.
COLLINS: Moments ago, we also heard from another one of Trump's picks. Pete Hegseth just did an interview. As a key senator is weighing in on a meeting that they had, today, on Capitol Hill. We'll bring that to you, live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're back live, on Capitol Hill, tonight, where Pete Hegseth was here today, again, making his case to Republican senators, behind closed doors.
Moments ago, we heard Hegseth making his case, on Fox News, saying that he wants an FBI background check, because of the allegation of sexual assault that he has denied in his past.
[21:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, TRUMP PICK FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is what the left does, Sean. It's the anatomy of a smear. They take something, and then they add anonymous sources, and contortions, and flat-out lies, and then they try to try you in the media before you can get -- even get into the doors with senators.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I should note, his now -- confirmation chances are still up in the air tonight. But I should -- a number of Republicans that we've heard from, top Republicans, have seemed to be signaling that the door is still very much open to confirming him, despite those allegations involving sexual assault, which, as I said, he's denied, and alcohol use.
At the same time, there are signals that many of those same senators firmly support the President-elect's plan to fire the FBI director, in favor of a controversial Trump loyalist Kash Patel.
My source tonight has spent a career inside some of those bruising fights in politics, confirmation fights, certainly. He was Trump's longest-serving National Security Adviser. Ambassador John Bolton is here.
And Ambassador, I wonder what you make of what we're seeing on Capitol Hill today.
Whether it's from Senator Joni Ernst having another meeting with Pete Hegseth, where she came out of it sounding more positive on his confirmation.
Or, the -- even Trump himself, in an interview, said he thought Kash Patel would be quite controversial, but he seems to be gaining a lot of support from Republican senators.
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, he's gained report from some -- support from some Republican senators, including some who opposed Matt Gaetz. So, I think there's a temptation, unfortunately, for some, to try and appease Trump, after they've opposed Gaetz, by supporting some of his others.
I think what a substantial number of Republican senators want is for these nominations just to go away, so that they don't have to announce or actually come to a vote to support or oppose them. That's what happened with Gaetz. It could happen to some of the others as well.
COLLINS: Well, there was a massive pressure campaign, certainly online, on when it comes to Joni Ernst, because we were talking about how she had seemed to have a lot of reservations about Pete Hegseth. She was on Fox News, last week, saying, I didn't get to a yes yet on him, after meeting with him.
And what do you make of, of the pressure campaign that we're seeing, from Trump's allies, to go after these senators who are even expressing hesitation about confirming some of these picks?
BOLTON: Sure. Well, that's what it's designed to do. And some people are susceptible to pressure. Other people are in better political circumstances. Let's put it that way. Some are retiring, and therefore don't have to face the electorate again. Some are not up for another four or six years, so that pressure isn't as going to be as effective with them.
And that's -- but I think bottom line is, to avoid both the pressure and the risk of shaming themselves by voting for unqualified candidates, people are hoping that information will come out that either disqualifies them, or shows that some of the criticisms that have been made are inaccurate.
And I think that's where the FBI background checks become important. Let's see what comes out in those full-field investigations. That could be very relevant to a number of nominations--
COLLINS: Yes.
BOLTON: --that the President's made -- President-elect has made.
COLLINS: Yes, I noticed Trump very rarely even said Chris Wray's name in this interview, if at all, the current FBI director that he picked.
But he also was asked about his past threat to have a special prosecutor -- special counsel for President Biden. Listen to what he had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELKER: You wrote on Truth Social in 2023 that you're going to appoint a real special prosecutor to go after Joe Biden. Now you're saying you're not going to do that.
TRUMP: I will say this. No, I'm not doing that unless I find something that I think is reasonable. But that's not going to be my decision. That's going to be Pam Bondi's decision, and, to a different extent, Kash Patel, assuming they're both there, and I think they're both going to get approved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you think it will be Pam Bondi's decision?
BOLTON: Well, I think he just made the decision for her. He said, I'm not going to make the decision unless there's something there.
So she's sitting in the Oval Office, one day, and he says, Pam, I'm not making this decision for you, but I think there's something there. What do you think she's going to do?
COLLINS: Yes. Ambassador John Bolton, reading between the lines, thank you very much.
BOLTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Much more, still live, here from Capitol Hill ahead, where there is a new and unprecedented pushback to one of Trump's Cabinet picks. We'll tell you what, right after a quick break.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The confirmation battle for Trump's picks is playing out right here on Capitol Hill, where tonight, more than 75 Nobel Prize winners are urging senators not to confirm Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as the Health and Human Services Secretary.
The New York Times obtained this letter that was signed by the usually apolitical Nobel Laureates. They cite Kennedy's opposition to vaccines, his promotion of AIDS conspiracy theories and his quote, lack of credentials or relevant experience, warning and I'm quoting from the letter now, "Placing Mr. Kennedy in charge of DHHS," the Department of Health and Human Services, "would put the public's health in jeopardy."
This is all coming, as Trump is hinting in a new interview that if confirmed, RFK Jr. would look at the long, debunked link between vaccines and autism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think somebody has to find out. If you go back 25 years ago, you had very little autism. Now you have it.
Something is going on. I don't know if it's vaccines. Maybe it's--
WELKER: Yes.
TRUMP: Maybe it's chlorine in the water, right? You know, people are looking at a lot of different things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Studies have repeatedly shown that there is no link between vaccines and autism, I should note.
My political sources are here with me tonight. Sarah Matthews and Ramesh Ponnuru.
It's great to have you both here.
I mean, this is something, it's not surprising. Because it's something even as recently as August, RFK was pushing in interviews. But to hear Trump also kind of hinting at it, saying, Well, I'm just raising these questions.
What we've heard from a lot of Democrats here, who are even supporting him have said, Well, I'm hoping he'll focus on what he said about the FDA and healthy food, and not so much on the vaccine conspiracies. But that's very much still part of the ethos here.
RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW: The vaccine conspiracies are troubling in themselves. The fact that he has repeated things that are debunked, he has relied on studies that have been shown to be fraudulent, and he didn't -- it didn't faze him. He just kept on going with it.
But it's not just troubling in itself. It tells you something about how he processes information. If you're not able to make the most, the simplest deductions about the evidence that's presented to you, it's telling about whether you are good at thinking.
COLLINS: Yes, but when we look at the array of Cabinet picks who are up here, kind of fighting for their confirmation, he does not seem to be one of them, Sarah. I've heard a lot of confidence from Trump's team about -- I mean, we spoke to a Democratic governor, on Friday night, Jared Polis of Colorado, who was very supportive of RFK Jr.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER TRUMP WH DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: Yes, I think with Matt Gaetz, he was the one taking all of the heat off of all the other nominations. Now it seems like, now that he's withdrawn his nomination, it's Pete Hegseth, who's taking all of the heat for these other nominations, who might have faced a little bit more scrutiny in a normal administration.
But given that, I think that senators want to preserve their political capital. They don't want to push back on too many nominees. And so, someone like RFK Jr. is going to squeak through.
But I will say, the vaccine debate is a little alarming, considering one of the things I was proudest of, during my time in the first Trump administration, was Operation Warp Speed. He was the one, who championed this, got us a vaccine in record time.
And then to think that now, in a second Trump term, there might be a reversal on shying away from vaccines or whatever RFK Jr. might do. It just goes to show how different a second Trump term is going to be.
COLLINS: Yes, and Trump has been laying out that that agenda early on, at least. And one other thing that he seems to be reprising is trying to end birthright citizenship. And this is the interview where he was talking about what that would look like with executive action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Do you know if somebody sets a foot, just a foot, one foot, you don't need two, on our land, Congratulations you are now a citizen of the United States of America. Yes, we're going to end that because it's ridiculous.
WELKER: Through executive action?
TRUMP: Do you know we -- well, if we can, through executive action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I think some attorneys in Trump round one would say, Well, you can't do that. You can't do this constitutionally. You can't do this alone.
But in round two, do you think they would try to make that court argument, at least?
PONNURU: They might try to do it, but it's hard to see the courts actually entertaining it, including people that Trump himself has appointed to the courts. Because it's an outlandish theory. The idea that -- the idea that it's even constitutional to do this is debatable. But the idea that you can do it through simple executive action, I think, is just outlandish.
COLLINS: And what did you make of what he said about deporting entire families together? Because that's what Tom Homan, who is going to be one of his top advisors on immigration in this -- in this second administration, had said previously to "60 Minutes."
Now, Trump was saying, Well, the way to avoid family separations is you would deport entire families together.
MATTHEWS: I think that this is something he plans on following through on. Look, it goes to show with Tom Homan being appointed in this role that they're very serious about this. I mean, at the RNC convention, during the summer, they were holding up signs that said, Mass Deportations. This is their plan.
They're following through on a campaign promise. And I think that they got a lot of heat for family separation in the first term. So, Trump is saying, Hey, look, the solution is, and if we're kicking one person out, the whole family is welcome to leave as well. And so, I think that they're just following through on their campaign promise.
COLLINS: But how do you balance that with him saying, Well, they want to try to come up with a plan for DREAMers, people who are brought here as children, and what that looks like.
While also saying, you know -- you know, what we've heard from a lot of senators about this plan, defending it, is, We're going to start with, with criminals. But they were just saying -- violent criminals. They were just saying, If someone's father is here illegally, that they will be deported.
PONNURU: Yes, I think that that is a real tension in the rhetoric, because the most defensible version of it is, We're going to start with the violent criminals. That's something that you could see being administratively feasible, for one thing.
Whereas this mass deportation of all illegal immigrants, you do begin to wonder whether the federal government is even equipped to be able to do that.
But you do also have this broader ambition, and Trump himself, characteristically, I think, sort of toggles between the two.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: Yes, Sarah, just being there for the first term. Do you think Trump will actually follow through on these pledges that he's been making?
MATTHEWS: Look, in the first term, one of the things that we would do, often to dissuade him from some of the more controversial policies or his rhetoric would be, Look, you can't do that. He's going to -- you're running for reelection, you can't do that. That's not an issue for him, moving forward
COLLINS: Yes, it's a fascinating theme to see. Because, obviously, what they're doing behind-the-scenes, right now, is making those plans, to carry that out.
Great to have both of you here, joining us, on Capitol Hill. Sarah Matthews. Ramesh Ponnuru. Great to have you both.
Thank you all so much for joining us. We'll be back here, tomorrow night.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" is up next.
