Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
FBI Director Chris Wray To Resign, Clearing Way For Trump Pick; Trump Says Kari Lake Will Be Next "Voice Of America" Director; NYPD: Gun Found On Suspect Matches Shell Casings At Crime Scene. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 11, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: No, I would never do that. I just want to be with you. I haven't been with you for a while.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes, no, I appreciate it.
ENTEN: But what's so interesting--
COOPER: I like the personal connection to the direction (ph).
ENTEN: Thank you so much.
COOPER: And I appreciate Nancy's video.
ENTEN: Thank you. And what I will note here, because I have to bring it back to some of the (ph) Google searches in New Jersey for drones.
COOPER: You got 20 seconds to eat up.
ENTEN: I can -- I can -- I can do it. Look at the Google searches for drones this month. Up, get this, over 6,000 percent from the 10-year average.
COOPER: All right. You--
ENTEN: So people are really interested.
COOPER: You did bring some data. Thank you.
ENTEN: I always bring data for you.
COOPER: All right. Appreciate it. Thanks, Harry Enten.
ENTEN: Thanks, buddy.
COOPER: The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight. Aftershocks here, on Capitol Hill, as the FBI director says he's resigning, while the candidate that Trump wants to replace him was here interviewing with senators today, and pledging to be ready to roll on day one. I have new reporting tonight, about why Chris Wray chose to make this move now.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, President-elect Donald Trump is one step closer to dramatically reshaping the FBI in his image, and into an agency that is fully under his control.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPHER A. WRAY, DIRECTOR OF THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: After weeks of careful thought, I have decided the right thing for the Bureau is for me to serve until the end of the current administration in January, and then step down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That announcement by FBI director, Chris Wray, before a room full of FBI employees, this afternoon, was really an acknowledgement of the reality that was facing him.
Trump had already announced that the person he wanted to replace Wray with. Kash Patel. Even though I should note, he handpicked Wray to lead the agency just seven years ago after he fired the last FBI director, James Comey.
You will remember that seven years ago, not far from where I'm sitting tonight, Wray was confirmed with a total of 92 votes in the Senate. The only five votes that you see there against him, the no-votes for his nomination? Those were all Democrats. That means every single Republican, who was present, voted for him. But that was 2017. And of course, this is now.
And this was Trump when he selected Wray initially in 2017. Compared to Trump's view of him just a few days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: I believe that we will have a great FBI director. I think he's doing really well, and we're very proud of that choice. I think I've done a great service to the country by choosing him. He will make us all proud, and I think someday we'll see that, and hopefully someday soon. So, we're very proud of him.
Well, I can't say I'm thrilled with him. He invaded my home. I'm suing the country over it. He invaded Mar-a-Lago. I'm very unhappy with the things he -- he's done. And crime is at an all-time high. Migrants are pouring into the country that are from prisons and from mental institutions, as we've discussed. I can't say I'm thrilled.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Now I should note, Chris Wray, of course, did not personally invade Mar-a-Lago. The FBI did execute a court-approved search warrant there, two years ago, after Trump repeatedly refused to turn over classified documents.
Though Trump had several issues with Wray, and wanted to fire him, actually at the end of his last term, it was that search, once he was out of office, that really cemented his animosity toward him.
I also have new reporting tonight that as Chris Wray was wrestling with his decision to resign or not, before Trump took office, one thing stood out. He wanted to leave the agency on his own terms.
Once Trump had won the election, back in November, it was clear to the Director that his time at the FBI was likely over, and he wanted the chance to have to say goodbye to the thousands of employees that he's led, for the last seven years, instead of being summarily fired, once Trump regained power.
The source that told me this, said the decision exemplified really how Wray feels about the rank-and-file work force inside of the FBI. He was described as sad about his premature exit, but approaching it with an attitude of resolve.
Now, that announcement came as his expected replacement, the long-time Trump loyalist that I mentioned a few moments ago, Kash Patel, was here on Capitol Hill, roaming these halls today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR FBI DIRECTOR: We look forward to a very smooth transition, and I'll be ready to go on day one. The senators have been wonderful, and I look forward to earning their trust and confidence with the advice and consent process, and restoring law and order and integrity of the FBI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: For his part, Trump described Patel as the, quote, "Most qualified Nominee to lead the FBI in the Agency's History."
If confirmed, he's vowed to fire other FBI leaders and root out Trump's perceived enemies in what he calls the Deep State.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: We got to put in all America patriots top to bottom.
I thought it would be fun to go on a manhunt of government gangsters together.
Your civil liberties are taken away from you and you're sent to prison.
We will go out and find the conspirators not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media. (END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: My lead source tonight found himself running the Bureau, the last time Trump had an FBI director vacancy. CNN's Senior Law Enforcement Analyst is Andrew McCabe, and he joins me here on Capitol Hill now.
And you actually were fired the day before you were set to retire from your role. When you look at Chris Wray's decision, tonight, to announce that he's stepping down, not today but before January 20th, do you think he did the right thing? Or do you think he should have made Trump fire him?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: I think -- I think Director Wray did an honorable job of leading the FBI through some very tough times. And I'm sure he has his own reasons for going in the way that he announced today.
But I believe very strongly that the principle of FBI independence is worth defending. And in this moment, the way to best-defend that principle, this post-Watergate reform that has been the core of the FBI for the last 50 years, the FBI that the American people rely upon, the FBI that's independent from politics, the best way to defend that principle would be to remain in his position, and force the president to fire him.
COLLINS: So you think he should have stayed?
MCCABE: I do, yes, I do.
COLLINS: And what does it mean now that he didn't?
Because I was talking to someone today who said, This idea of independent FBI directors, or the next president leaves the former FBI director in place--
MCCABE: Right.
COLLINS: --is over. Because I mean, if Kash Patel is confirmed, if a Democrat's elected in four years, I think it's hard for people to see that they would potentially keep him in place.
MCCABE: It may very well be over, and that's really a crushing thing to FBI people. The culture in the FBI has long seen itself, and for good reason, as being very different than every other government agency.
And one of the reasons for that was because of their storied independence, independence that's really was legislated by Congress with the 10-year term for the FBI director. And I fear that what we're on the precipice now is the complete walking back of those 50 years of reforms in the post-Hoover FBI.
COLLINS: And I was thinking of what has led to these two FBI directors being ousted. The last time an FBI director was ousted, it was because of an investigation into Trump. The Russia investigation--
MCCABE: That's right.
COLLINS: --angered Trump.
MCCABE: That's right.
COLLINS: And he fired James Comey.
Now, it's this investigation into Trump, the classified documents, really that--
MCCABE: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, he was already mad at Chris Wray. But that was really a huge part of this. And it's just notable, given, typically, FBI directors would not be pushed out before their -- before their term. I think before James Comey, it only happened one time.
MCCABE: Only one time, William Sessions. And that was really the result of an investigation that had begun under the Republican administration of George Bush, and then kind of got handed off to the Clinton -- and the results of which got handed to President Clinton after he was inaugurated.
So yes, the things that cost Chris Wray and James Comey their jobs were not wrongdoing, was not corruption, was not a failure of performance. It was a failure to exhibit the requisite amount of loyalty that Donald Trump demands. And in Kash Patel, he's found the perfect FBI director for Donald Trump.
The question is, because he's got -- Kash Patel has that loyalty in spades, that's basically all he has to bring to the FBI. The question is, what sort of FBI director will Kash Patel be, for the FBI and for the United States.
COLLINS: Well, and looking at that. Trump wanted to fire Wray at the end of his last term. Bill Barr threatened to quit if he did.
MCCABE: That's right.
COLLINS: So, he ultimately did not.
But when you look at this, and what an FBI would look like with Kash Patel, what does that look like for people who are curious about this?
MCCABE: It's a great question, because Kash's background and his qualifications aren't anywhere close to any preceding FBI director, right?
COLLINS: Take out -- take out what he said about the media--
MCCABE: Yes.
COLLINS: --and the Deep State, which all are important. We're not ignoring that. MCCABE: Sure.
COLLINS: But if you are ignoring all of that, just looking at his qualifications, would you feel comfortable with him running the FBI?
MCCABE: Absolutely not. I mean, he can't. He's not even -- he doesn't have half of the leadership experience, the law enforcement experience, the legal career that any previous FBI directors had.
And for one example, Kaitlan, I'll have you focus on the few things he said about reducing the size of headquarters. OK, he says it in hyperbolic, somewhat non-sensical terms on podcasts. But basically what he's said is he's going to empty out FBI headquarters, send everybody back to the field. That's exactly where we were before 9/11.
FBI headquarters has grown in the post-9/11 era, because we realized we needed to centrally manage our national security programs, in a way to process and handle and disseminate intelligence better. It's one of the reasons why we failed to connect the dots leading to 9/11. It's been one of the best reforms that the FBI has gone through in this period.
[21:10:00]
And so, what he's talking about basically, is winding the clock backwards, taking that centralized management structure, kicking it out to the field offices, and maybe putting us back to a time when we don't have the sort of centralization that allows us to see those dots.
COLLINS: We'll see if he gets confirmed. Obviously, that is something that's up to the senators, here on Capitol Hill, right now.
Andrew McCabe, great to have you here.
MCCABE: Thanks.
COLLINS: And also joining me tonight is my next source, who was the Deputy Director of the FBI under Presidents Bush and Obama, and he was also the other finalist for the Director job when Trump was eventually choosing Chris Wray.
John Pistole, it's great to have you back here on THE SOURCE.
Because we had been talking about this very scenario, what this was going to look like. And as we were just saying, there was only one FBI director who had ever been fired before, before James Comey.
Do you agree with Andrew McCabe that he should not have resigned?
JOHN PISTOLE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: No, Kaitlan, I think that Director Wray did the right thing by announcing his retirement at the end of this administration.
I think we're at an inflection point in the Bureau's history, and U.S. history, perhaps even more broadly, where the FBI director is becoming a political appointee based on who's currently in office versus the 10-year term that you've been mentioning and discussing, to outlast any two-term president. That's consecutive terms, not two terms intersected by somebody in between.
So, I think it's -- the challenge is to how do you provide the continuity for the outstanding work that the men and women of the FBI do, every day, to protect national security, cybersecurity, terrorism, spies, criminal gang, all those things that the FBI is known for doing, and which I think most people would give high marks to for the vast majority.
99 percent of the FBI agents, analysts, professional staff, I think most people say, They're doing a great job, they're keeping us safe, and they're allowing us to go about our work without worrying about, OK, what's going to happen when I walk out the door? Or unfortunately, like the UnitedHealthcare CEO being shot down in Manhattan. Things like that, bad things are going to happen.
The question is, is the FBI best-positioned to help mitigate risk? Can't eliminate risk ever. But how do you best-mitigate risk in a way that allows the American people go about their business?
And so, I think what we were setting up now in this inflection point is that in four years, if there's a Democrat who comes into the Oval Office, then there's clearly going to be a new FBI director, assuming this nominee makes it through four years, which is another question.
COLLINS: Yes. So you just think the whole, the 10-year norm, which is designed to insulate the role from politics, you think that's essentially over at this point (ph)?
PISTOLE: Well, I think it is clearly under this president nominee and coming in. So he's made it very clear that he wants loyalists in positions typically reserved for cabinet officials.
Of course, the FBI director is not a cabinet official. So it's one thing to have -- clearly, you want your people who have your agenda and everything at the cabinet level, and maybe even just a sub-cabinet level, the deputy secretaries and things like that.
But to get down to an actual, an agency that is clearly sub-cabinet level, that's a whole different paradigm, and it -- I think the question becomes, does that undermine the effectiveness and the efficiency of the FBI going forward, if they're not sure what their leader is going to be doing--
COLLINS: Yes.
PISTOLE: --with the sensitive information that they are gathering and collecting as they're supposed to do?
COLLINS: Yes.
And Chris Wray is someone who really went out of his way to not be political in this role. I mean, I just talked about all the Republicans who overwhelmingly voted for him. There were only five Democrats who voted against him, when Trump picked him in 2017.
And so, when you -- when you look at Chris Wray, and we talk about the investigation into -- in the classified documents. But the other things he oversaw during his time. These high-profile criminal investigations. Hunter Biden was also on there, Democratic senators. There were the two attempted assassinations of Trump. Cyberattacks. Threats from China, Iran and Russia. Mass shootings.
Do you worry that the United States is more at risk for some sort of attack, if the FBI director is someone, who's talking about rooting out the Deep State and focusing on that, and not the other things I just listed?
PISTOLE: Well, I think you're spot on, Kaitlan, in terms of, what are the -- what's the core mission of the FBI, is to protect the American people, to uphold the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
[21:15:00]
And so, if they're focused on trying to please the boss in the White House, as opposed to doing what they have taken an oath to uphold, then that makes it problematic. In case there is intelligence information development, in a criminal investigation, whatever it may be, that indicates that there's something happening, and the President says, No, we're not going to go after that because of X.
The president should never be involved in investigative decisions, policy decisions, as relates to what the FBI is investigating, how they investigate and what they do.
There's some -- there's an old adage that the FBI is an equal opportunity investigator. It doesn't matter whether Democrats, Republicans, Independents. If there's a credible allegation that somebody has broken the law, one of the 300-plus federal statutes on the books that Congress has passed, to say, Yes, this is a criminal violation of Title 18 such and such section? Then they will investigate if there's probable cause. If there's not, then they will assess that and not pursue it.
To have a president direct the FBI, whether directly through the new director, or through the attorney general--
COLLINS: Yes.
PISTOLE: --or the Deputy Attorney General, then that's problematic, in my mind.
COLLINS: John, but can I just ask you? Because I double-checked with someone today. And I was told, it came down to you and Chris Wray, when Trump was picking a new FBI director. I mean, it's got to be interesting for you to look at that tonight, to think this could be you in that position.
PISTOLE: Well, interesting is an understated word, Kaitlan. Yes, it's fascinating. And I think of God's grace, and I just how -- how -- yes, Chris has, I believe, done a really good job.
Yes, when I got to the West Wing of the Oval Office, and there was Chris Wray going into interview right before I did, I felt relieved, because I was concerned that he was going to appoint -- nominate a political hack. And I knew Chris Wray was not. He was an independent thinker, brilliant lawyer, and was going to keep the FBI out of the news, other than for its great work, rather than being out there trying to propagate, Oh, you know, the FBI is doing all this great stuff.
Let the FBI actions speak for themselves, as opposed to, We're doing all these great things because of the White House is directing us to. I think that's the completely wrong path to go down. And hopefully, that won't be the case that when the FBI director nominee, Patel gets -- if he's confirmed, gets in--
COLLINS: Yes.
PISTOLE: --he will realize that the men and women of the FBI are doing the right thing for the right reasons.
COLLINS: John Pistole, thank you for your time tonight.
My next source tonight was Kash Patel's boss on the National Security Council inside the White House. He's arguing, even before Chris Wray resigned today, that he is -- that Patel is unqualified to take over the FBI.
Coming up, also this hour, we have new details about the CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione's mom, what she told police in recent weeks about her son.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Some of the loudest warnings about Kash Patel potentially leading the FBI are actually coming from those who worked alongside him in the last Trump administration. That includes a new Op-Ed that was written by Trump's former National Security Adviser, with the headline "Kash Patel Doesn't Belong at the FBI."
Ambassador John Bolton writes that while Kash Patel worked at the National Security Council, he, quote, "Proved to be less interested in his assigned duties than in worming his way into Mr. Trump's presence."
He also writes that "His conduct in Mr. Trump's first term and thereafter indicates that as" the "FBI director, he would operate" like a secret police chief for Joseph Stalin, who once said, "'Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime.'"
Ambassador Bolton is with me tonight on this breaking news.
It's great to have you. Ambassador, I mean, you wrote that Op-Ed before Chris Wray announced that he was resigning today. What is your reaction to him resigning?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CIVIL DIVISION, DOJ, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, it was undoubtedly a very difficult decision. I can say that as somebody who has resigned from a senior government job.
I think he probably made the right decision for himself and for the Bureau, because he's taking him -- himself and his performance out of -- out of the area of consideration.
That's -- the point is not, would a replacement do better than Chris Wray? The question is, we've got a vacancy, who should be filling it. And that, really, I think, prevents more harm to the Bureau. There's going to be harm to the Bureau, if Kash Patel is confirmed. This may lessen it, I think. So, I think Chris Wray did the right thing by his lights, and the honorable thing by his loyalty to the Constitution.
COLLINS: In a statement commenting on Wray's announcement, Trump said, quote, Kash Patel is the most qualified nominee to lead the FBI in the agency's history.
What do you say?
BOLTON: That's ridiculous. I mean, this is typical Donald Trump. If you have an agency -- let's take Trump's assessment for granted, that it's true, you have an agency in trouble. Who do you appoint to head it?
Jimmy Carter, of all presidents, faced this choice, when he was president, after Watergate. And he nominated William Webster, a sitting Federal Court district judge, a Republican, but a man of unquestioned integrity, somebody who had demonstrated he was learned in the law, as they say, from his performance on the bench.
That's the kind of FBI director that you name at a time of crisis, not somebody like Kash Patel. You know, his -- the word, loyalty, is the wrong word here. He shows what Trump really wants, which is fealty to Trump.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: What I've been surprised by is the Republican reaction to this. Because, I mean, I remember, in 2017, when Chris Wray was up here, he was being -- he had been nominated by Trump. He was confirmed by 92 Republicans. Only five Democrats voted against him.
And today, listen to what Republican senator, Kevin Cramer, said about his resignation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): I'm glad he did it, to be honest. Because clearly, when it comes to his relationship with Donald Trump, it was tainted by the fact that he authorized the FBI to raid his home. And to think somehow he could survive that and maintain his job, while Donald Trump becomes president, would have been untenable. So, I'm glad he did it before he got fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: When he says that it tainted the relationship between Trump and Wray, when Wray -- and a court approved that search warrant of Mar-a-Lago, after Trump refused to give back the classified documents. When -- you know, I reported on this at the time, they asked repeatedly to get them back.
What do you make of a Republican saying, Wray ruined that relationship by having that happen?
BOLTON: Well, I'm not sure that's exactly what he meant. But the point is, you take the adjectives away, is correct.
When Trump was asked just a few days ago, what was wrong with Chris Wray? He said, He raided my beautiful home, invaded my beautiful home, Mar-a-Lago. And implied that, Maybe I didn't get hit by a bullet, but by a piece of shrapnel in the assassination attempt in Pennsylvania.
That's not a reason to remove an FBI director. What Trump wants is a yes-man in that job. And in Kash Patel, I think he's found one.
There's a scene in the coronation ceremony for King Charles, where his son, Prince William, kneels before him and says, You are my liege lord, and I am your liege man. Very medieval and kind of touching.
But when an FBI director kneels before a president, and says that? Still very medieval, it's not touching,
COLLINS: That is quite the scene that you just painted there.
And I was thinking about this, because the Republicans' reaction has really been not as, you know -- even Trump thought it would be controversial to pick Kash Patel. He wasn't really sure he would get confirmed, based on what I heard from people around Trump.
But you write in your Op-Ed that, speaking of when you had to hire him at the NSC, "I regret I didn't fully discern Mr. Patel's threat immediately. But we are now all fairly warned. Senators won't escape history's judgment if they vote to confirm him."
What would you say to fellow Republicans, who are maybe kind of in the position you are, considering whether or not they should confirm this person?
BOLTON: Well, I think the evidence is already considerable enough to rejecting. But remember, we still are going to have a -- we should have here, a full-field FBI background investigation. Who knows what that will turn up?
And we're going to have a confirmation hearing. And the Democrats and at least some Republicans are going to ask some tough questions. So, I think a lot of Republicans, right now, just wish Kash Patel, Tulsi Gabbard, and a number of other Trump nominees, would just go away, and so they don't have to stand out in the rain and vote one way or the other.
There's been reporting in the press, this thing is moving very quickly toward a confirmation of Kash Patel. No, it's not. Slow down. Take it easy. Let's look at what the real facts are, and see what comes out in the rest of the confirmation process, which has barely begun.
COLLINS: We will see if that bears out. We'll know in just a few weeks from now.
Ambassador John Bolton, as always, thank you for your time tonight.
BOLTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. We are seeing more reaction from other lawmakers, here on Capitol Hill, to Chris Wray's resignation. We'll bring that to you after a quick break.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're back live, on Capitol Hill, where Republicans, tonight, are lauding FBI Director Chris Wray's decision to resign, before Trump takes office again. Senator Chuck Grassley, who is the incoming Judiciary chair, said that Wray's exit is, quote, Good for the country.
But we've heard from a lot of Democrats feel like Senator Peter Welch, who told CNN, It is regrettable to see Wray go three years before his term is up.
My political sources joining me here tonight are:
Democratic congressman Ro Khanna of California.
And Shermichael Singleton, who is a Republican strategist.
It's great to have you both here, on this very chilly evening.
Congressman, let me start with you, though. Because what we have seen is all of these Republicans saying, This is great, it's time for him to go. How do you personally feel about Chris Wray saying, he's going to leave before Trump takes office.
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): It's sad. Because he's an honorable public servant. I got to work with him with the China Select Committee. He was so committed to stopping fentanyl from coming in. He worked in a bipartisan way. And he's someone who put the country first. So, I think he should have finished his 10 years.
COLLINS: Shermichael, what do you say?
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, I think the President-elect has an obligation, I would argue, to do things a little differently. And a part of doing things differently is to come in, with new individuals leading these agencies, to deliver on the promises he made to the American people.
Now, clearly, we all know his distrust of the FBI. And we've seen, if you look at recent data that their approval rating is at an all-time low in recent times. And so, I think to appoint someone else to move the agency in a different direction, to restore that trust among the American people, makes all the sense in the world.
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: But is it manufactured distrust? Because I was just talking to some sources, today, who were saying, actually, people who were signing up to be agents is at an all-time high, that over the seven years, they have -- the rank-and-file have viewed it as a less- political organization.
SINGLETON: Well, I think it depends on one's vantage point.
I think if you're a conservative, and maybe you're a gun guy, or maybe you're one of those moms during COVID who wanted your kids to still be in school, you may have a different vantage point and perspective on this.
I think if you're a person of color, particularly an activist, who had experiences with the FBI, maybe doing things that were a bit nefarious, some would argue, you would also probably look at this a bit different -- differently, Kaitlan.
And so, I think it depends on where you sit -- the perch you sit on, I should say.
But again, back to my original point, I think if the expectation is that Donald Trump is going to lead and do things differently, this time around, you can't do that with the same people.
COLLINS: With, speaking of the other people who have been up here. I mean, I was walking around yesterday for some meetings. I saw Kash Patel, I saw Pete Hegseth. It's basically swarming up here with these cabinet-hopefuls, meeting with senators, trying to talk to them, convince skeptical ones that they should vote for them.
Congressman, I just wonder how you view Pete Hegseth's situation right now. He met with Todd Young, tonight, a senator from Indiana, for over an hour. Todd Young came out of that and said he wasn't ready to say yes, he is going to back him.
Do you think he still has got a few obstacles ahead of him?
KHANNA: I have real concerns, I mean, given the police report and the allegations. Now, obviously he's innocent until proven guilty. But that doesn't mean that you make him the head of the Defense department. What message is that sending to young girls, young men across America?
I do want to say one thing about the FBI that I hope doesn't get lost. There may be issues about the political investigation. That's not 99 percent of what the FBI does. There are honest, hard-working agents, who put their lives at stake, every day, to fight sex trafficking, to fight drug trafficking, to fight terrorism. And I just think we should appreciate what that agency does.
COLLINS: It's a lot of ex-military, and the rank-and-file, when you look at them. I was thinking about what Kash Patel has said he wants to do with it, which is, is send them out into the country, and to go fight crime in other cities. But, I mean, obviously that's what local--
SINGLETON: Well, local police, yes, yes.
COLLINS: --police do.
SINGLETON: I mean, look, I would--
COLLINS: FBI is doing totally different investigations.
SINGLETON: First of all, I agree with everything the Congressman said. There are many great agents, and we should acknowledge that and enable them to do their job and do it well.
But what I would personally, as a conservative, like to see Kash Patel do at the agency is clean up where necessary.
If the critique from conservatives have been to the American people, We don't believe that certain departments or division within the agency writ large are operating in a manner that we believe are functional to prove or give the best results for the American people? Then change that.
Figure out where those issues are and change them. Figure out how you can restore that trust with the American people.
COLLINS: You think Kash Patel is that person to restore trust?
SINGLETON: I think Kash Patel should be given the opportunity, if ultimately confirmed from the U.S. Senate, to do that job. I think that's the only expectation that anyone could have at this point, Kaitlan, because we simply don't know. But I think to cast aspersions, this early on, I think it's a bit short-sighted.
COLLINS: We'll see what happens there.
I do want to note, Congressman, because I'm going to read this off my phone, because Trump just posted it on Truth Social that he -- for Kari Lake. She had been rumored for a job. It wasn't totally clear where he was going to go.
And he said he's pleased to announce that she will serve as the next Director of Voice of America. And in that position, that she will work closely with the head of the U.S. Agency for Global Media, and that they will ensure the American values of Freedom and Liberty are broadcast around the world fairly and accurately, unlike the lies spread by the Fake News Media.
That is a Senate-confirmed position, I believe. What do you make of that selection for Kari Lake?
KHANNA: Of all the places, that's fine, I mean, if she wants to go to Voice of America.
Here's what I'm really concerned about, and hope they will ask Kash Patel, or if he comes here, in the hearings. Just don't engage in political retribution. We've got to end that. We've got to end it, on either side.
I was -- I saw Jamie Raskin and Zoe Lofgren in the elevator, and I joked, I said, It's a good day in America, you're still free. I mean, but we can't be joking about these things.
We've got to end political prosecutions. Now, I get that the other side may say, It happened on -- to President Trump, or other folks. But we've got to, at some point, move on. And I hope whoever the FBI director is, will make that commitment.
SINGLETON: Look, I think the American people expect Donald Trump and Republicans to move on.
And by moving on, that means proving results. Results on the economy. Results on economic dislocation. Results on the cost of living. Results as it pertains to cleaning up our immigration crisis. And results of cleaning up the crisis we see across the globe, China, Israel, Iran, Syria, Russia. What are the answers to those problems, Kaitlan?
And I think if Donald Trump and this Republican majority can deliver on that, then that is moving on, I would argue, Congressman.
[21:40:00]
KHANNA: I appreciate you focus on the issues. I hope they'll take your advice on that. Focus on the issues.
COLLINS: FBI Director Shermichael Singleton, we'll see.
KHANNA: Yes. I'll support him.
COLLINS: Great to have you.
KHANNA: I'll support him.
COLLINS: Bipartisanship.
Congressman Ro Khanna, great to have you here as well.
Up next. We are going to get back to that investigation that's underway, because now we're hearing they have hard evidence in the case against the CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione, as we were also hearing from what his mom told police.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:00] COLLINS: Tonight, police have damning new evidence against the CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione. As the NYPD Commissioner says, that 3D-printed gun that he had on him, when he was arrested, at a McDonald's on Monday, in Pennsylvania, matches the three shell casings that were recovered at the scene of the crime, outside the Hilton hotel in New York.
Police have also matched his fingerprints to a water bottle and a granola bar that were recovered near the scene as well.
I want to get right to my investigative source tonight. The former FBI Assistant Director, Chris Swecker.
And it's great to have you here.
Because investigators already had a lot of circumstantial evidence that we were looking at.
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION: Yes.
COLLINS: But now that they have this critical forensic evidence, what do you make of the case that they are building against him? Because I talked to his lawyer, last night, who sounded very skeptical of what they had so far.
SWECKER: Well, he's being paid to be skeptical. But I -- you know, to how many years--
COLLINS: Yes.
SWECKER: --40 years in law enforcement, as a prosecutor, as an agent, as an attorney, I've seen few cases that have more slam-dunk evidence than this one right here.
And I think the only hope that attorney has is to suppress some of that evidence. For example, his notes from the search of his person at the McDonald's.
But you got DNA match. You got the bullet -- the gun match to the shell casings. You've got fingerprint matches. You've got a confession written out in his notes, in a three-page -- basically a -- what people are calling a manifesto. You've got booked (ph) video, all over New York City, showing him, his movements to the execution site and from the execution site, and all this preparation.
Really, I don't think there's going to be any trouble convicting this young man, when he -- if he goes to trial.
COLLINS: Well, and we've been looking at that six-month period, before this shooting happened. And what we -- we knew that he had cut off communication with friends and family, around then.
His mom reported him missing, on November 18th, in San Francisco. And we've learned tonight, the last time she says she spoke with him was July 1st. And she said she had been calling his phone repeatedly. His voicemail was full. It wasn't taking any more messages.
What are investigators looking to, when it comes to that six-month period, and what Luigi Mangione was doing?
SWECKER: Yes, well, first, let me say, they don't have to prove motivation. This is premeditated murder. But it's good to have that as a case study and to, you know, just as additional evidence at the trial.
But clearly, he had something, some life events, and -- that affected him. Whether it's his back injury, whether his insurance got canceled or denied. And he began reading. I guess he had -- he was laid off from his job, which was a fairly mundane job for someone with his educational background, and he had time on his hands, and he was in a lot of pain.
So, I think he met some sort of life crisis. And like a lot of lone radicalized people do, mass shooters and terrorists, he sort of radicalized himself, with his readings, and convinced himself that killing in the name of his ideology was a noble thing to do.
COLLINS: You talked about maybe attempting to suppress evidence.
What defense options would his attorney have here? I mean, I talked to one attorney, last night, who said--
SWECKER: Right.
COLLINS: --maybe they're setting themselves up to plead an insanity defense or something. His outburst outside of court, they said, could contribute to that.
What's your view of that?
SWECKER: Yes, I think that's in the -- I think they're looking at that very closely.
I think this attorney in Pennsylvania is a placeholder, and I think their resistance to the extradition is just buying time, so that they can get a -- they can hire a high-powered attorney in New York City.
So, another strategy may be to try to suppress evidence. I mean, when you walk up to somebody in a McDonald's, and you know that you're going to arrest them, as soon as he pulls down his mask, and then start asking questions and doing searches? They'll make an issue out of it and try to suppress it. I don't think they'll be successful. But defense attorneys are paid to do just that and muddy the waters.
COLLINS: Yes. We'll see what that strategy looks like, and if it is still the same attorney.
Chris Swecker, thank you.
SWECKER: Thank you.
COLLINS: We're also following a disturbing new trend that has come about after that shooting. There were Wanted posters going up in certain cities, like New York, targeting other top CEOs. We'll dig into that next.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: New tonight, New York City's top prosecutor says there could be more charges against the suspected killer of the UnitedHealthcare CEO. And he's also denouncing the growing support that we have seen from some circles for Luigi Mangione.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Celebrating this conduct is abhorrent to me. It's deeply disturbing. And what I would say to members of the public, people who, as you described, are celebrating this, and maybe contemplating other action, that we will be vigilant and we will hold people accountable. We are at the ready.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: The Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin Bragg, there, making that promise, after Wanted posters, targeting other health care executives, were seen posted around New York City today.
Joining me here tonight, Nicholas Florko, Staff Writer for The Atlantic, who argues in a new post, quote, "Murder Is an Awful Answer for Health-Care Anger." And he joins me now.
And it's great to have you. Because you also used to work for STAT, which is a health care publication, covers UnitedHealthcare previously. So, I understand you probably are deeply familiar with the anger that so many people feel towards the health care industry.
But the idea that people are using that to celebrate the murder of a father of two children is just kind of stunning.
NICHOLAS FLORKO, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: It really is. I mean, I'm used to people being angry about health care. My entire career, people have been angry about health insurance, about health care prices. I've never seen anything like this. I mean, the amount of outpouring of support for Luigi Mangione, and the amount of hate going to the United CEO is just, it's unprecedented.
COLLINS: Yes. But we've seen some people say, Well, the reaction that we've seen to beef up security for these CEOs, or to focus on that, is them focusing on the wrong issue. But in looking at that, I mean, we're also seeing people put up Wanted posters with their faces.
I just want to show some people, who maybe aren't as prolific on social media as others, the reaction that we've seen towards the suspect here, online.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This Ivy League hottie, named Luigi, is the Robin Hood that we never knew that we needed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I listened to Luigi's manifesto, this morning, three times, and I cried. Honestly, it's beautiful, and I agree with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At least, he left a very powerful message, and he highlighted how terrible the health care system is in America. I think he'll go down as a hero in history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What does that say to you?
FLORKO: I mean, it tells me that people are really angry about the state of health care in this country, and that they're feeling kind of hopeless. I mean, to me, what it symbolizes that people are moving towards this glorifying violence, because they feel like something can't get done otherwise. I mean, I would argue, frankly, that that is the absolute wrong way to go, in every way possible.
We know that non-violent protest is more effective than violent protest. And I think we all should agree that killing a CEO isn't going to change anything to make our health care system better.
COLLINS: Yes. And Senator Elizabeth Warren was facing some blowback today. Because when she was asked about this, she told The Huffington Post, "The visceral response from people across this country who feel cheated, ripped off, and threatened by the vile practices of their insurance companies should be a warning to everyone in the health care system... Violence is never the answer," she said, "but people can" only be pushed so far.
I saw some people saying, That should end at, Violence is never the answer.
FLORKO: Yes. I mean, I think that Senator Warren has struggled with, a lot of us that have been talking about this, been struggling with, which is balancing both the fact that our health care system causes real harm and real suffering, and that murder is absolutely incorrect.
The thing that I think is important to highlight is, unfortunately, Senator Warren is right in a lot of ways. We know from history that societies devolve into political violence, when people feel like they are the victim, they see very clear inequality, and they lose faith in our democratic institutions.
So, I think the point that Senator Warren is making is, is right, that this -- these factors can lead to violence. But I just think it wasn't said in the right way.
COLLINS: Did you hear from people that used to speak with, in the health care industry, after you wrote this, or just given your past, where you worked, what people inside that industry have said about this?
FLORKO: I mean, I think people are just scared. I mean, we're seeing the insurance companies taking their CEOs' photos off of the internet. We're seeing companies working from home. I mean, we've never seen anything like this.
And when you have people putting up Wanted posters in New York City, with people's faces on them, you have to wonder if they're right, they have to be careful.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, to see the Wanted posters is quite something too, if you are one of those health care CEOs, to see that and targeting in that way.
FLORKO: Yes. I mean, I don't know how you see it, as anything but intimidation. And I mean, frankly, I think and I hope that people will see those and think, This is awful. But it only takes one person to cause chaotic trouble.
COLLINS: Yes. It's an important piece. I'm glad you wrote it. And thank you for coming on here to talk about it tonight. Nicholas Florko, it's great to have you.
FLORKO: Thank you so much.
COLLINS: And I do want to note, before we go tonight, a passing to note. Bill Hennessy is the veteran sketch artist who, for years, gave us a look inside the country's most memorable legal dramas, has now died.
With cameras not allowed in the Supreme Court, it was his sketches that are the only visual record of key moments that have shaped the law of the land.
And when access was restricted, like in the Senate chamber, during Trump's 2020 impeachment, it was Hennessy's work that allowed us to see all of that history unfolding.
[22:00:00]
And I remember, in 2017, when then-White House press secretary, Sean Spicer, barred TV cameras from the briefing room, the Virginia native, Hennessy, was there to set the scene, for those who could not see it for themselves.
Bill died on Monday, on his 67th birthday. He is survived by his wife, seven children (ph), and 13 grandchildren. We will miss him and his work. And may his memory be a blessing for those who loved him.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight, live here on Capitol Hill. I'm Kaitlan Collins.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
