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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Police: Two Dead, Six More Injured In Madison, WI School Shooting; RFK Jr. Meets With Senators As Confirmation Battle Looms; Paris Hilton Makes Final Push For Child Abuse Bill On The Hill. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 16, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): --among other things, the judge ordered Dali, to wear an ankle bracelet with a GPS monitor, surrender any travel documents, and told her, she cannot go to airports, or leave the area where she is staying. That includes, of course, jumping on a Greyhound bus to Canada.
Dali had been staying with a roommate. A law enforcement source told CNN, her roommate reported her missing after he saw her GPS ankle bracelet on the floor.
Randi Kaye. CNN. Palm Beach County, Florida.
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JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Unbelievable.
All right. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
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KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Good evening.
As we come on the air, this Monday night, we're awaiting a live update, this hour, from authorities, on that deadly school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin, this morning.
And we're expecting law enforcement officials to hold another briefing around 09:30 p.m. Eastern Time, 08:30 in Madison. That's when we could learn the identity of the shooter, who killed a teacher and a teenage student, at the Abundant Life Christian School, and injured six others, including two students who, tonight, are in life-threatening condition. We're also waiting for word, tonight, about a possible motive, as CNN has learned from a law enforcement source, this evening, that the 17- year-old female shooter apparently planned this attack in advance.
We've learned that investigators have gathered information that suggests the shooter had been dealing with certain problems, and expressed some of them in writing that are in the hands of investigators tonight.
The shooter's parents, I should note, are cooperating with authorities. And earlier today, there was a police presence at a home on the north side of Madison that we are told is related to this investigation.
We're getting firsthand accounts tonight from young survivors of what it was like inside that school, this morning, when the shooting began.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you hear gunshots?
ADLER JEAN-CHARLES (ph), SIXTH-GRADE STUDENT, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: Yes, I heard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me what happened.
JEAN-CHARLES (ph): We heard them, and then some people started crying. And then we just waited until the police came. And then they escorted us out.
I was scared. Why did they do that? Why?
NORA GOTTSCHALK (ph), SECOND-GRADE STUDENT, ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: I was getting ready for lunch, so it was basically lunchtime. And then I just heard shotting (ph), and there was a teacher, and she was screaming like, Ah, my leg, help, help.
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COLLINS: That was a sixth grader and a second grader that you just heard from. The second grader there, holding a popsicle in her hand as she recounted what happened, when there was a shooting at her school this morning.
My investigative sources tonight are:
Former Deputy FBI Director, Andrew McCabe.
Former Boston Police Commissioner, Ed Davis.
As well as the Creator of the FBI's Active Shooter Program, Katherine Schweit.
It's great to have you all here.
And Katherine, let me start with you. Because we're learning new information tonight, from my colleague, Shimon Prokupecz, about what investigators are looking at tonight. And they were saying that at this press conference that's coming up, they're hoping they can reveal a lot more information about this shooter, about what they've learned here.
And what Shimon is hearing is that this person planned the attack in advance, and that they indicated the information that was gathered by investigators suggested that the shooter had been dealing with problems.
What exactly kind of material, and what kind of clues, are investigators looking for in something like this?
KATHERINE SCHWEIT, CREATOR OF THE FBI ACTIVE SHOOTER PROGRAM, AUTHOR, "STOP THE KILLING": Hi. Good evening.
In some ways, that's not -- none of that is a surprise. And we kind of -- we kind of know the framework of what we'll see. This is targeted violence that occurs in schools, is generally an individual who attends that school. Almost in every instance, they attend the school or they just got kicked out or just left the school.
So, what they do is they plan and prepare to do this kind of violence, because they can't find any other solution. And so, their other solution is, OK, I'm going to -- I'm going to do this.
We saw the same thing that happened up at Oxford High School, where the shooter indicated in writing that he had tried to tell his parents he needed mental health care, and he didn't get it. So, I think that's the kind of things that we'll see. A student who is having trouble.
Remember, we're about at exam week for finals in some -- in many of these schools. And break -- and Mondays are a very common day to see this, because students, especially in schools, in middle schools and high schools, they are stressed out over the weekend. And they formulate this plan, and then they moxie up, they get the courage to execute it on Monday.
COLLINS: Well and on -- we don't know the name of the shooter yet. That's what we're waiting to see, if the authorities are going to release that.
But Commissioner, when you look at the profile of what we do know so far that this was a female shooter. When you look at The Washington Post, since 2006, of the 482 deadliest mass shootings in America, just 3 percent are known or suspected to have been committed by a female shooter. What did that say to you when you learned that tonight?
ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Well, Kaitlan, it was a shock to me. It's so unusual to have a female shooter in a situation like this.
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I really am waiting to hear what the backstory is here. Were there signs? Were there things that she was experiencing in school, or that she was communicating to other people around her that should have been a trigger here? But because she was a female, people didn't pay attention to it as much as they would if it was a male.
These are all things that we need to drill into here. And a lot of what we're seeing right now is speculation, because we don't know what the details are.
But I can tell you this. There's a religious community there, and a community government, that needs to provide wraparound services to the kids, and the teachers, that were affected today. It has to go beyond looking at the reasons for it. And also, there has to be a response to make sure that this trauma they've experienced, especially in this season, is properly taken care of.
So, I don't know what to tell you about the fact that it's a female, except that this is extremely unusual.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, just hearing from that second grader there. I mean, for any student that went through this, obviously.
And Andrew McCabe, you're here with me.
When you are looking at this. I noted the police presence that is at the -- what we believe is the home of the suspected shooter. They said the parents were cooperating, when we last heard from the authorities. They were waiting to see what detectives glean from them in that interview.
What are detectives asking these parents?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY FBI DIRECTOR: Well, it's important to go the full length of executing a search warrant at the residence, because you never know what other sort of evidence you might recover.
Obviously, there's not someone, who's going to be facing prosecution here. The shooter, we're told, took their own life. But there's all sorts of pieces of information that could shed light on that question of motive, to help us better-understand the sorts of things, the process, that this person went through before they decided to make this decision, the sort of planning they went through.
What sort of flags or things should we have seen and should have been noticed along the way. And so, seizing that evidence of computer devices, internet-connected devices, writings, all that stuff is very important.
And as a part of that, they're no doubt talking to the parents. And those questions are probably pushing in the same direction, Kaitlan.
They're trying to find out, Let's build a timeline of where your, in this case, daughter has been over, the last 48, maybe 72 hours. And what did you see? What did you observe? And going back, have you -- was your daughter struggling with mental health issues and that sort of thing? And it is all just to build as rich a picture of this event, and the events that led up to it, as they possibly can.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Katherine, I mean, if you're looking at this, and you're sitting down with those parents and talking to them, what kind of questions would you be asking them, and types -- in terms of not just that background on a potential timeline here. But also, the gun, we are told, it was a nine-millimeter pistol, an incredibly common type of gun in the United States.
What other kind of questions would detectives be asking these parents, given they are cooperating with them?
SCHWEIT: Yes, I worked in our FBI office, up in Wisconsin, so I was in Madison plenty of times. And it's not unusual to have guns in the house.
I think the first question is, Was this person -- did this young lady have access to weapons? How did she have the access to that weapons? Because I do think, as Andy was saying, that's something that we have to nail down. What kind of access did she have? Did she have the ability? Is there some state violation or federal violation about her having access to guns?
But in addition to that, I would -- you know, you have to, as an investigator, at this point, you have to say to the parents, who are grieving the loss of their child -- we know that -- you know, maybe you didn't see, but can you think back to things that, in retrospect, can help us to understand, so this kind of tragedy can't happen again.
Because you want to gather and get that -- those facts out of the parents. But you have to recognize those parents. They've also just lost a child.
COLLINS: Yes. And as they're looking at that, and taking all of this into consideration, Commissioner. I mean, we don't yet know how the student got the gun. There is a law in Wisconsin, as Katherine noted, it requires guns to be stored in a way that child -- children cannot reach them. But that's only if the kid is under the age of 14. We're dealing with a student that we are told was 17-years-old here.
DAVIS: Right. And I think that's why it's really important to drill down into whether or not there were indicators, and whether the family had an enhanced responsibility, to isolate those weapons, if they have -- if there's been any suicidal, homicidal ideation in the child. Those are all incidents that may happen that would drive someone to take special precautions.
And I think they'll be looking into all of these issues to see if something could have been done to stop this.
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COLLINS: Yes. And that's something that they were emphasizing earlier, when we were hearing from these officials about, were the signs, were they there? They were saying that that very often is the case. This is a small private school, I should note, Andrew McCabe that we're talking about here.
When the investigator -- or when the authorities give their update at 09:30, it's the fourth update of the day. What are you going to be listening for? What do you think is the most important thing for them to be getting out in that moment?
MCCABE: Well, it's obviously the information about the shooter, which we're still waiting to receive. That will be a big moment, ultimately reveal to the community who's committed this horrible offense.
But I think it's also likely that we're going to start hearing questions to law enforcement, about the security measures that were taken, or maybe not taken, that could have -- had an impact on this -- on this tragedy day.
COLLINS: Yes, there was no resource officer and no metal detectors at this very small private Christian school.
MCCABE: That's right. I don't think that that's uncommon. I mean, there's many schools across the country that don't have those sorts of resources. But no doubt, this community is going to go through a lot of soul-searching on issues like that. How do we better-protect our children? And at what cost are we turning our schools into kind of armed prisons, essentially.
So, it's these are -- these are tough issues for any community to get around. And I would expect that as we get it further away from the tragedy, people will be focusing on those things more intently.
COLLINS: Yes.
Everyone, standby. Because we are going to be taking that press conference live, when it happens. Thank you all for joining with your expertise on this matter.
We'll be awaiting that update in this coming hour. As we do, my next source survived the 2018 school massacre in Parkland. Now, David Hogg is launching a major new political bid, as he remains at the forefront of the fight over gun safety. That's next.
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COLLINS: The numbers are somehow both numbing and chilling at the same time. 83 school shootings in America and counting, just this year alone, on grade school and college campuses. In 2008, that number was 18, by this point. That figure was so disturbing at the time that CNN started to keep track.
This year alone, more than half of the shootings, 56 of them, were on the grounds of an elementary, middle or high school. 38 people went to school one day, and never returned home to their families. Another 115 live with the physical injuries of that day at their school. The number of those who carry the emotional scars is incalculable, and each of those numbers is a person, a name, someone that did not deserve this, a person that lived what has unfortunately become all too American of a reality.
That includes my next source, tonight. David Hogg was 17, when he lived through the murder of 17 of his classmates, at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, in Parkland, Florida. And he joins me now.
And I mean, just to be totally transparent with everyone watching. We had booked you already, on something separate. You announced today that you're running to be Vice Chair of the Democratic National Party.
And just the timing. I wonder what you make of just the frequency of how often this happens, that you're booked here to come on to talk about something else, and a school shooting happens that you're just all too familiar with.
DAVID HOGG, SURVIVOR OF PARKLAND SCHOOL SHOOTING, CANDIDATE FOR DNC VICE CHAIR: It's heartbreaking, to say the least, but it's also enraging. And it's not enraging necessarily, just in the political sense, but enraging, because I know it doesn't have to be this way, right?
After Parkland, many people said to us that it wasn't going to be possible for us to create change, because Florida is a Republican state, that nothing is ever going to change. And we did.
As a group of students, with teachers, with parents like Fred Guttenberg, Manuel Oliver, and so many others, and my classmates, we raised the age to buy gun to 21 and passed a red flag law, with Republicans, that has been used over 19,000 times since the shooting, to disarm people that are a risk to themselves and -- or others. And guess who uses that law the most? Republican sheriffs.
This is a bipartisan issue, and I know that nobody watching, no Democrat, no Republican, wants to see gun violence continue, whether that be a school shooting, a gun suicide or an accidental discharge.
COLLINS: And just given that, I mean, the fact that you've worked so hard to fight this, and you have been successful. But given there's been no major breakthrough in Congress. I mean, how do you look at this, and hear the numbers of how -- how this is only increased since 2018?
HOGG: I mean, it speaks to the need for us to do this work. And part of the challenge with this is that we're not going to hear about the shooting that doesn't happen, right?
For example, we did pass the first gun law in 30 years, just a few years ago, after the Uvalde shooting. Once again, when people said that nothing would change. But it did, in a minor way. We put billions of dollars into fighting school safety, community gun violence that happens on a daily basis that doesn't make it on the news, and on expanding background checks for people under the age of 21. Democrats and Republicans worked to pass that. And part of what made it possible was it wasn't a win for either side. It wasn't a huge win for Democrats, as it wasn't a huge win for Republicans. But it was a win for the American people.
Because over a 1,000 people have been prevented from purchasing weapons like the AR-15 that previously would not have been, had we not had that expanded background check process. But what it took was inventing a new type of policy that wasn't a talking point for either of these parties.
COLLINS: Yes, because we hear from a lot of lawmakers, after a school shooting happened, saying, You can't legislate this problem away, like, This is a bigger issue than that, or focusing on -- you know, a lot of the focus today has been on no metal detectors at this school.
What goes through your mind when you hear that?
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HOGG: Looking at other countries, frankly, right? Other developed countries that just do not have this issue, even the ones with guns.
I've had meetings with the -- you know, some of the ambassadors to some of those countries, talking to them about, OK, like, How do you handle guns in your country? And they talk about how frustrating it is that oftentimes they're used as a talking point by the NRA, to say, Well, the X country doesn't have school shootings, but they do have firearms. When they say, Well, the reason why we don't have those school shootings is because we have a strong system of laws in place to protect people.
And what we need to realize is we need to stop treating this as an either-or problem. We need to stop at saying that, Oh, we just need to focus on how does somebody get the gun? Obviously, we need to focus on that. But we also need to simultaneously focus, on why does somebody want to kill somebody else in the first place?
That means addressing joblessness. That means addressing homelessness and hopelessness that many people have, that caused them to pick up a gun, even if it's here in D.C., and it doesn't make it on the news because it's a shooting that happens all -- you know, there are shootings that happen all the time in this city, unfortunately.
COLLINS: Yes.
HOGG: Or if it's in the instance of a school shooter, like the one in Parkland, Florida who obviously had a mental illness, but at the same time was a self-declared white supremacist that drew a swastika on his AR-15.
We need to realize that hatred is not a mental illness. But realize as well -- I know I'm saying realize a lot. But truly, we need to realize this is not an either-or problem. We need to address both the demand side, the capability -- and the capability. How does somebody get an AR-15 to murder people, or any gun, in this case, or -- and at the same time, why do they pull the trigger?
COLLINS: Well, and you have been using your voice ever since you lived through that experience. I mean, I remember the first interview that you did when that happened.
And now today, you came out and said you're running for Vice Chair of the Democratic National Party. And the reason that's so notable is you're decades younger than anyone else who is going to be running for a similar position to that. What made you decide to do this?
HOGG: Well, I repeatedly talked about how throughout the election, I raised concerns about young voters.
I was on the National Finance Committee with the Harris campaign, as one of the youngest people in that room, I often joke, by several decades. It was probably less than that, but still.
And I got up in front of that room, and I said, Guys, I'm really worried about the numbers that we're seeing with young men, right now. And the response and vitriol that I got back about, What a dumb question that was, and how that was something that we didn't need to focus on, was really telling and sad.
When I even talked about it publicly, saying my concerns about young voters, I got texts from political insiders and consultants, saying, Here you go, saying this dumb stuff all over again, and you shouldn't be saying this.
Mind you, they were 45-plus-years-old and being paid to consult on things like young voters. They want to actually think--
COLLINS: And they were telling you, you were wrong?
HOGG: Yes, exactly. And then telling those campaigns that they had nothing to worry about. Because increasingly, the Democratic Party, as a whole, is a party of consultants and sycophants, frankly.
And we have become the party of the consulting-class and left behind the working-class in that process. Not in terms of our policies, necessarily. I think we've done great things to deliver for working- class people. But we have failed to communicate with those people.
And in politics, the most important thing is that you do the work. But second to that, you need to tell people what you actually did and make sure that they actually feel it. And not tell them, for example, when inflation is high, or people feel like crime is going up, that, They don't understand, because that the statistics say otherwise, right?
When people are feeling these things, our job is to address those feelings, and not just throw a chart in their face. And we need younger voices in that room to bring these things up.
COLLINS: And you're obviously a much younger voice. What would you say to someone, who maybe looks at this, and says, He's not qualified for this, or He's not as experienced as someone else who's running for this. What would you say to someone who said that? HOGG: Well look at the results that we've had so far with the purported people that are experienced, frankly. And if anybody wants to be part of that change and help bring more young voices?
And this is a 50-state and seventh -- territory strategy around the country, where we need to build the party up from the bottom-up. And we need to make sure that we have people at the top that are investing at that level too, in a 50-state strategy, to build up these leaders.
And I've spent the past seven years of my life not only studying the history of the conservative movement throughout college, but working on building a 30-year plan for the Democratic Party of young -- of investment in young peoples, that we build the future of this party and the future this country, with talented and effective leaders that got the experience that they needed young, to become the leaders that we've always deserved, but have never had enough of.
And if anybody wants to support me in that mission and becoming Vice Chair, they can go to davidfordnc.com.
COLLINS: David Hogg, thank you. And I'm sorry that you come on, and it's a school shooting that we start out talking about.
HOGG: You too.
And I hope, one day, it will be history and not headlines, and I know it can be.
COLLINS: Yes. David Hogg, thank you so much.
And as we noted, we're waiting for that update from officials, in Wisconsin, on the school shooting there. We'll bring that to you in minutes when it's expected to happen.
There was another news conference that also happened today, in South Florida, by President-elect Donald Trump, actually, for the first time since he won reelection, talking about vaccines, among many other pressing questions.
As RFK Jr. was on Capitol Hill today. What he just told reporters about how he feels about the polio vaccine.
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COLLINS: Tonight on Capitol Hill, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is kicking off a series of meetings that will be crucial to his potential confirmation as the nation's next Health secretary. As he is also seeking to downplay his own anti-vaccine sentiments before his meetings with Republican senators.
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REPORTER: Should the polio vaccine be revoked?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are worried you're going to take away their vaccines, Mr. Kennedy.
REPORTER: Should -- should the polio vaccine be revoked?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT TRUMP'S PICK FOR SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: I'm all for the polio vaccine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Meanwhile, at his first post-election press conference, we heard from President-elect Donald Trump, defending his pick to run the Department of Health and Human Services.
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REPORTER: Do you believe there's a connection between vaccines and autism? Do you believe there's a--
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: Well I don't. Look, right now, you have some very brilliant people looking at it.
I think everything should be looked at.
You're not going to lose the polio vaccine. That's not going to happen.
REPORTER: Do you think schools should mandate vaccines?
TRUMP: I don't like mandates. I'm not a big mandate person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are here tonight.
And Kevin Madden, let me start with you.
Because one of those meetings that RFK Jr. had tonight was with Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma. He's been a pretty ardent defender of most of Trump's picks.
And he said that they did talk about questioning the science of vaccines. This is what he had to say.
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MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He talked about how there's increasing autism--
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Yes.
RAJU: --among children, here in the United States.
MULLIN: Yes. RAJU: Did he specifically link that--
MULLIN: No.
RAJU: --to the use of vaccine?
MULLIN: No, he said, We got to question that, what's causing that? He says, as being over at HHS, he said, I'm going to question that. We need to find out what's causing this.
Questioning it isn't an issue. We should question science.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, there's questioning science. But there's also science debunking this myth that vaccines are linked to autism, which they're not. And that's been studied and proven.
What do you make of what you're hearing from Republicans, coming out of these meetings?
KEVIN MADDEN, ADVISER, MITT ROMNEY'S 2008 & 2012 CAMPAIGNS: Well, I think their skepticism is also a product of a lot of the information and the perspectives that they get from their constituents. I think, look, not all vaccines and not all mandates are the same. And I think that's a reflection of what people -- there's a lot of people around the country that believe that.
And I think when they communicate that to their senators, and their senators communicate that to incoming Cabinet Secretaries, as well as an incoming President at the White House? I mean, that's part of the process. I think you're going to see more of that.
I know there's been a lot of skepticism about -- from critics of the Republicans, that everybody's going to fall in line and sort of move with whatever Trump does, or whatever his Cabinet Secretaries say. And I just don't think that's the case.
I think Markwayne Mullin, Senator Kennedy from Louisiana, who has a background as a physician, these are folks that are going to have a lot of things to say. They recognize their role in the process.
Senators like their jobs. They want to keep them. And they also want to be -- make sure that people know they're important. And so, I think they're going to use this process to establish all three of those credentials, and make it very clear that that this is not something that is going to -- that the process of talking about all these issues is going to be one that they're very involved in.
COLLINS: As a critic?
MADDEN: Yes.
KAREN FINNEY, AMERICAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT AND SPOKESPERSON: I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. No. Look, I think, a couple of things. Number one, you have members of Congress who are going to have to face voters in a couple of years. And of course, they're going to be listening to what their constituents are saying.
And I think there's going to be a tipping point of people, who say, Wait a second. Are we really talking about not vaccinating people for polio? And -- like you heard that question. Because that's the disinformation that gets out there as well. So I think it's -- there's a balance.
But the main thing is, I think we have to stay focused on the big picture. None of this means--
COLLINS: Standby, Karen.
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: Sorry.
But we do have to go to Madison, Wisconsin now, where we are getting a live update on today's school shooting.
SHON BARNES, MADISON POLICE CHIEF: --and include some new information that was not available earlier, as I promised.
The Madison Police Department responded to a mass shooting at the Abundant Life Christian School, today. Officers were dispatched to the school, which is located on the City's east side at 10:57 a.m. They arrived to find multiple people suffering from gunshot wounds. Three people, including the shooter, are dead.
The shooter has now been identified as 15-year-old Natalie Rupnow, who went by the name, Samantha. She was a student at the school. And evidence suggests, she died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The official cause of death will be released by the Dane County Medical Examiner pending the conclusion of their examination. She was pronounced deceased, while in transport to a local hospital.
A teacher and a teenage student were pronounced dead at the scene, at that school. Six other students and a teacher were injured and taken to area hospitals. Two students remain in critical condition, and have life-threatening injuries. A teacher and three students were treated for non-life-threatening injuries. Two of these have been released and discharged from the hospital. The other two survivors are considered to be in stable condition.
At this time, we believe there was only one shooter involved. We are still working to determine a motive. Detectives have talked to her family members, this evening, as well as conduct a search of the shooter's home, here in Madison.
[21:35:00]
The shooting happened inside a classroom, in a study hall, of students from mixed grades. A document about this shooting is circulating, this time, on social media. But we have not verified its authenticity.
The Abundant Life Christian School is being monitored by police overnight. At this time, no one is allowed inside or on the school property. The Madison Police Department is aware that people are hoping to hold a vigil at the school tonight. We're asking you not to do that, as this is still -- as this location is still an active crime scene.
So, I'm going to go over the timeline of events for you.
At 10:57 a.m., a second grade student called 911 to report a shooting had occurred at school. Now, let that soak in for a minute. A second grade student called 911 at 10:57 a.m., to report a shooting at school.
Officers were dispatched to the school at 10:57. A deputy with the Dane County Sheriff's Office was the first officer to arrive on the scene at 11:00 a.m. 24 seconds later, the first Madison police officer arrived on the scene at 11:01, and immediately entered the school.
Officers bravely entered the building as soon as they arrived, not knowing what they were going to encounter. At 11:05, officers inside the school alerted people that the shooter was down, and that a gun had been recovered. At 11:05.
The Madison Police Department also began setting up for parents and guardians, and what we briefly described earlier for you as, a reunification center. That occurred at 11:05.
The Madison Fire Department was dispatched to the scene, at the same time. They arrived at 11:05 and began linking up with officers who were also inside. And they were instrumental with providing aid to victims, who were suffering from gunshot wounds, potentially saving lives.
The first public notice about the shooting was posted on the Madison Police Department Incident Report website at 11:13 a.m. Officers began clearing the school building at 11:14, and bomb dogs started to clear the facility at 11:23 a.m.
The Madison Fire Department began transporting patients at 11:26. Again, we want to stress that EMS arrived on the scene at 11:05, immediately connecting with officers to enter the scene, not knowing what they were -- what they were going to experience.
Press briefings occurred at 12:15, 12:30, 05:30 and now at 08:30 p.m. Central Standard Time.
Let's talk a little bit about our law enforcement and our community partners. Multiple agencies assisted with the response to the shooting. The Madison Fire Department, and several other Dane County and EMS agencies, the Dane County Sheriff's Office, the University of Wisconsin Police Department, the FBI, the ATF, all have played major roles in our response and in our investigation.
We also want to acknowledge UW Hospital, as well as St. Mary's Hospital, for their work in treating the survivors of today's school shooting.
Community resources. There are resources available to anyone needing help or needing someone to talk to.
The Crime Response Unit with the Dane County District Attorney's office have been mobilized. This is a group of people, who are trained to help victims of mass violent incidents. This group is made up of social workers, attorneys, victims, professionals, former law enforcement, and other stakeholders in our community.
If you need assistance, you can contact the Crime Response Program between 08:00 and 05:00 during the day time. I'll give that number again. 608-284-6908. And you can reach them after-hours at 608-376- 0164. 608-376-0164 after-hours.
[21:40:00]
The Wisconsin Department of Justice's Office of School Safety and Office of Crime Victim Services are also providing resources during this critical time. Their Critical Incident Response Team program is designed to minimize the psychological impact of a school critical incident, and helps to provide long-term mental care, long after this is over.
And I don't know how we can minimize what has happened today. But we're going to do the best we can to provide services, for all of these children and staff. We cannot forget the staff, who bravely, bravely, took care of their students, during this harrowing time.
We also want to thank employees of the Dane County -- I'm sorry, of Dane Healthcare, which we spoke about before. Again, the clinic shut down for the day, and employees assisted with our unification process.
We've also seen an outpouring of support from various community groups and businesses. Twisted Grounds Coffee, Greenbush Bakery, Ian's Pizza, Culver's, Mission BBQ, Starbucks--
COLLINS: You have been listening to the Madison Police Chief, Shon Barnes, giving an update, to reporters, the fourth one of the day, on the school shooting that happened today, in Madison, Wisconsin.
A few headlines that we got from him there, including it was a second grade student who called 911, at 10:57 a.m., this morning, local time, to report A school shooting was happening at the Abundant Life Christian School. That student called at 10:57. By 11:05, police were on the scene, and the shooter was down.
We have now learned, from authorities, for the first time, confirming the name of that school shooter, that was 15-years-old. Her name was Samantha Rupnow -- Natalie Rupnow, but she went by Samantha. She was 15-years-old, not 17, as previously reported. She died of a self- inflicted gunshot wound at the scene. So of course, two others were also killed at that shooting today, earlier.
We have heard that police searched her home, earlier tonight. They are still working to determine a motive, and said a document that has been circulating online that has been attributed to her has not yet been verified by the authorities.
I'm joined now by the former Deputy FBI Director, Andrew McCabe.
As well as the creator of the FBI's active shooter program, Katherine Schweit.
It's great to have you both back with me.
We are listening into that press conference to see if there is new information coming out, as we're hearing from officials.
Andrew McCabe, let me start with you, though, just on what we're hearing here about the profile of this shooter.
MCCABE: Well, I mean, you've got to be shocked by the age, first of all. You have a 15-year-old child who somehow gets their hands on a nine-millimeter semi-automatic pistol, takes it to school and wreaks this kind of havoc. And the fact that the shooter is female, that is remarkably rare. I think 3 percent was the fact -- the statistic you quoted earlier this evening.
But to me, the fact that it's a -- female is less significant. I think when we get into the writings and into the motive and understand more about this person's life, I think the commonalities between this shooter and the shooters that we've seen in other places are going to start to emerge.
We typically see a pretty -- I don't want to call it a standard profile. But there are some distinctive elements that are common among shooters across generations, particularly school shooters, Kate can give you the details on those. But there's these isolated, tormented, oftentimes bullied, young people sometimes find themselves in making this decision.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Katherine, the other thing that the Police Chief revealed there, just about the scene and what this looks like. Obviously, one, we're seeing how quickly the police officers arrived, and how quickly the shooter was down, as they were there, recovering that nine-millimeter pistol.
He also said that the shooting took place in a classroom study hall, that it was mixed grades of students. It's not clear if the second grader was in the room or whatnot, when they called 911 to report that a shooting was happening at their school.
But when you hear that, and you hear that they are searching the home of the shooter in Wisconsin. What are they looking for in that home, in addition to the writings that we know they already have their hands on?
SCHWEIT: I think, just like Andy said, they need all of the information to know what really the background was.
But there will be a long trail behind that shows, and those things that show that she was planning this will include an internet search history that will probably be pretty vivid about how to -- how to accomplish this and why she wants to accomplish it, and maybe other people, copycat sort of things.
But also, we find a lot of writings, and -- and, again, as Andy says, we have so many situations, where they have all these behaviors of concern. Some of them are physical. So, they'll purchase clothing, or they'll give away material, they'll send text messages to their friends. That's called leakage. We're going to look for all of that, not only in a computer, but in a phone.
[21:45:00]
But, very often, just like the shooting down in Georgia, not too long ago, you open -- after the search, they opened up the center drawer of the kid's desk, and there's the shooting plan. And I think that's the kind of stuff that you see--
COLLINS: Yes.
SCHWEIT: --and we see, routinely, not just in schools, but in other locations.
COLLINS: Well, and Katherine, just given your experience, one, in Wisconsin, but also just with the FBI's Active Shooter Program. A 15- year-old female student. How often do you come across that profile of a shooter?
SCHWEIT: Rare, very rare, of course, as everybody acknowledges. But we do see more female shooters in the education environment than other environments. More often, when you count those up, they might be at the university level.
And then females often are in a dual situation, those handful of shootings where there's a husband and a wife, or a boyfriend and a girlfriend, you just don't have a lot of situations where a female kind of comes to the table and outwardly emotes that kind of anger and violence.
Oftentimes, that's the -- the suicide is what you see in a female. In a male, you're more apt to see that outward expression. And historically, we've got decades now, unfortunately, to indicate that that's the fact.
COLLINS: Yes.
Katherine Schweit. Andrew McCabe. Thank you both for joining us on this breaking news this hour.
We'll continue to monitor that press conference as we learn more, including just the chilling fact that a second grade student had to call 911, this morning, to report a shooting at their school. We'll continue to follow that.
Also, new reporting ahead that you learned about here, first on CNN, what happened behind closed doors today at a meeting at Mar-a-Lago, as Trump sat down with the CEO of TikTok.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok, because I won youth by 34 points. There are those that say that TikTok has something to do with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: With his company facing the threat of an imminent ban, in the United States, and an appeal now pending at the Supreme Court, tonight. I have new reporting that the CEO of TikTok, Shou Chew, made the journey to Mar-a-Lago today, sitting down with the President-elect Donald Trump, for the first meeting that the two have had, since Trump won reelection in November.
TikTok and its parent company are trying to convince Trump, and the courts really, to stop the company from getting banned in the United States, unless its Chinese-based parent company agrees to sell it.
A federal law that was passed by Congress, because of national security concerns, would shut down TikTok in the U.S., on January 19th, unless there is a sale.
Donald Trump once supported that ban. But today, said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We'll take a look at TikTok. You know, I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok, because I won youth by 34 points. And there are those that say that TikTok has something to do with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: While he did win the election, I should note, CNN exit poll showed that the youngest age segment of voters that Trump won were 50 to 64. It was not by 34 points. But Trump did make big gains with young voters, especially compared to past Republican presidential candidates.
My source tonight is CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.
And Elie, it's great to have you here.
Because even if Trump were convinced during this meeting, with the CEO of TikTok, this is a ban that takes effect the day before he's sworn in. As president, he would not be able to just singularly overturn it outright. What options would he have as president?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Exactly. So, the president can't just undo this law. It was passed by Congress, earlier this year. The only way to undo the law is if Congress decides to undo it. That's not happening. They passed it by a good margin.
The only things that Donald Trump can do. First of all, he can order his Justice Department to switch sides. At this point, the Biden DOJ is defending the law you referenced. Trump could say, No, we're switching positions, we're now going to attack the law. It's not going to necessarily make a difference, but you'd rather have DOJ with you than against you.
The other thing that Trump might choose to do is decline or refuse to enforce this law. The Executive branch does have some discretion there. But if he does that, Kaitlan, count on another round of lawsuits trying to make him enforce it.
COLLINS: Yes, and Elie, as I was reporting today that they were meeting at Mar-a-Lago, it came out that TikTok was going to the Supreme Court, and which now has 34 days to step in before this takes effect.
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: What could the Supreme Court do here? What are the scope of possibilities there?
HONIG: Yes, this is such a huge, high-stakes legal battle. So, TikTok just lost, last week, in the Court of Appeals. The Court of Appeals said, Yes, this law does involve your First Amendment rights, and the rights of your 170 million users, but there's a compelling national security interest.
Now the Supreme Court has to make the next move. Either they are going to say, Yes, we will pause this, meaning the whole law does not go into effect, until the whole case is briefed before the Supreme Court. Or they will refuse to pause it. And if they refuse to pause it, Kaitlan, then this law goes into effect on January 19th of 2025, with enormous consequences for this huge social media company.
COLLINS: Yes, and a lot of upset younger users, probably.
HONIG: For sure.
COLLINS: Elie Honig, thank you for breaking that all down for us.
And we'll keep track of that.
COLLINS: Also tonight, here in Washington, Paris Hilton is bringing her star power here to get a bill, that has been years in the making, across the finish line before it's too late.
The reality star-turned-entrepreneur was back on Capitol Hill, urging the House of Representatives to pass a bill that would help protect children from institutional abuse. It passed unanimously through the Senate, last week. But now the House has less than a week to act on this.
[21:55:00] Hilton has been advocating for this bill and for victims of child abuse for years now, after sharing that she physically and emotionally was abused at a boarding school for troubled teenagers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS HILTON, ENTREPRENEUR & ADVOCATE: I was force-fed medications and sexually abused by staff. I was violently restrained and dragged down hallways, stripped naked, and thrown into solitary confinement.
I am here to be the voice for the children whose voices can't be heard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And Paris Hilton is here with me now. She is the Author of "Paris: The Memoir."
Along with Republican congressman, Buddy Carter, who is co-sponsoring this bill.
And it's great to have you both here.
And Paris, when you talked, you've said how difficult it was to speak so personally about something that happened to you, and what you went through.
When you look at what the stakes are of getting this bill passed, what would you say?
HILTON: I'd say the stakes are high. There's been hundreds of children who have died in these places, and 20 within the time that I have been fighting for this bill. So this is extremely important and extremely personal to me as well.
COLLINS: And you have made so many trips here to Washington, to advocate for this. And people seeing you in a role that maybe they're not used to seeing you in, and talking about just what you went through, and the effect that that had on you.
HILTON: Yes, it's been very emotional to come and speak, because it is very difficult and traumatizing to talk about so many things that I just tried to forget.
But just knowing that there's hundreds of thousands of children being sent to these places, every year, including foster youth and children with disabilities, and to know what's happening behind closed doors, is so heartbreaking. So, I'm going to do everything in my power to make a difference.
COLLINS: As a mom, has that changed how you view this even more so?
HILTON: Yes. I brought my son, Phoenix, with me here, to D.C., so he's on his first trip here. And just looking in his innocent eyes, I can't imagine sending him to a school, and the things that happened to myself, and so many others, happen to him. So, I will just continue fighting even harder for the future of my children and all the children in the world.
COLLINS: Congressman, what does this look like, the future of this in the House? Because it's so rare for lawmakers to agree on anything. Obviously, we saw it come through the Senate. What is going to happen in the House with a bill that means so much to her?
REP. BUDDY CARTER (R-GA): Well, we're very optimistic that it's going to be on the floor, this weekend, that we're going to get it done before we leave Washington, and very excited about that. I think it has the votes. I think the votes are there to get it passed, and pass the Senate unanimously.
And after all, who wouldn't vote for this, protection for our children? We all love our children. We all want what's best for them. And this legislation will give accountability, will give oversight. It will give parents the tools that they need, to make an informed decision, about whether they want to send their children here or not.
COLLINS: Yes, and you say that, and it sounds like commonsense, and maybe people are at home, saying, well, yes, why can't that happen?
But we know how Washington works. You do as well as I do. Things that seem logical do not always happen.
CARTER: Well, when it involves children, a lot of times it does, though. I still have confidence in Congress, and in members of Congress. And I have confidence in this legislation. And if it is brought before a vote, and I think it will be, I'm very confident it's going to get passed.
COLLINS: You two are clearly in agreement on this, and both advocating for it, and fighting for it.
What have your conversations been like with other lawmakers, when you're -- maybe they're not familiar with a story, like yours? I think a lot of people probably aren't. And how do you just get across to them the effect that it did have on you, and what it means?
HILTON: I've been coming back and forth to D.C., telling my story. And everyone who I've spoken to is just in shock. They can't believe that these types of things are happening to children. And, I think, hearing from someone who's had lived experience makes all the difference.
And every time I come, I also bring so many other survivors, to tell their stories, to say, it didn't just happen back when I was a teenager. It's still happening today. And now it's boomed into a $23 billion a year industry with taxpayers' money. And people just need to understand what's happening in these places. And I'm so proud to be able to be the voice for the voiceless.
COLLINS: How does that feel to have gone through something that was so devastating, but to find yourself using that experience to try to stop anyone else from going through that?
HILTON: It's been the most healing and empowering experience of my life. And even though it was the most horrific and horrible thing that anyone could go through, I feel that maybe God made me go through it, and gave me this special gift, and this platform to be able to be the hero that I needed when I was a little girl.
COLLINS: And is Mike Johnson going to bring this to the floor?
CARTER: I'm very optimistic that he will, yes.
[22:00:00]
HILTON: Actually, I got a call from Leader Scalise, and he said they're going to be bringing it to the floor tomorrow.
COLLINS: Wow.
HILTON: For 05:30 p.m.
COLLINS: That's some news that you just made here, Paris Hilton. Thank you so much for making that news, and for sharing your story. I know it's difficult, but I really appreciate it.
HILTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Congressman, thank you as well.
CARTER: Thank you.
COLLINS: Great to have you both here.
Thank you all so much for joining us here on THE SOURCE. We'll see you here, back tomorrow night, from Washington.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
