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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
New GOP Spending Bill Fails After Trump, Musk Sank Bipartisan Deal; CEO Murder Suspect Faces Federal Murder, Stalking Charges; Georgia Appeals Court Disqualifies Fulton County D.A. Fani Willis From Prosecuting Trump. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 19, 2024 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: --Jim, we've reached out to the school, as well as the police department, to find out more details about those children who remain in the hospital. We have not heard any further detail, other than to say that, Yes, they are still in the hospital.
Jim, back to you.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes, those poor people and their families.
Whitney Wild, thanks so much.
And the news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE, tonight.
We are live on Capitol Hill, where it is in total chaos, at this late hour, as we are one day away from a government shutdown. And not only is there no deal. No one seems to know who is in charge.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
And here on Capitol Hill tonight, things are quickly lurching toward disaster, or very well may already be there.
38 Republicans just bucked President-elect Donald Trump, voting no, alongside all but two Democrats, to torpedo a spending deal that Republicans cut not with Democrats, but among themselves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We will regroup and we will come up with another solution. So stay tuned.
Very disappointing to us that all but two Democrats voted against aid to farmers and ranchers, against disaster relief, against all these bipartisan measures that had already been negotiated and decided upon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: If you listen closely there, Speaker Johnson did not mention the more than three dozen Republicans who also voted no, alongside those Democrats. And yes, those were bipartisan measures that were agreed upon, in Johnson's deal that he had with Democrats, that Trump and Elon Musk blew to pieces, about 24 hours ago.
Tonight, Speaker Johnson is scrambling to satisfy Trump, and his very powerful wingman, and also to potentially save his job.
Democrats are pointing the finger directly at Trump and Musk, some even referring to President Musk and Vice President Trump.
Though the actual incoming Vice President, Senator JD Vance, is blaming Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JD VANCE (R-OH), U.S. VICE PRESIDENTIAL-ELECT: They would rather shut down the government and fight for global censorship bullshit. They've asked for a shutdown, and I think that's exactly what they're going to get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: One thing that every lawmaker can agree on, right now, no one has a clue what is going to happen next. And if a spending deal isn't reached, the money that is keeping the lights on here, and the government funded, lapses at 12:01 a.m., Saturday.
I want to get straight to CNN's Chief Congressional Correspondent, Manu Raju, who has been here on the Hill, working late tonight.
Manu, what are you hearing? What's going on right now with Republicans?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, right now, in fact, Congress is gone, Kaitlan, and we are inching closer and closer to a government shutdown, potentially with no end in sight, given that there is no pathway to reach a deal, because of Donald Trump's late demands here in the process.
Remember, this was all on a glide path to pass, and to avoid a government shutdown, to keep the government open, up until mid-March, until Trump intervened late, and demanded that Congress include an increase of the national debt limit, to avoid dealing with that next year.
Even though they can wait and deal with that next year, he wanted that off the table now. Well, that caused a major problem within his own ranks. 38 Republicans voted against him, in large measure, because they don't want to suspend the national debt limit. They want tax -- they want spending cuts instead.
And Democrats say, they didn't want to give him that issue, because they want to use the debt limit as leverage, to try to push back against Donald Trump's efforts to push through tax cuts, next year. They believe this could help them fight that effort.
Now, Speaker Johnson, as he walked off the House floor, came out and he attacked Democrats. But he did not say what is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Just last spring that the same Democrats berated Republicans and said that it was irresponsible to hold the debt limit, the debt ceiling, hostage. What changed?
It is, I think, really irresponsible for us to risk a shutdown, over these issues, on things that they have already agreed upon. I think you need to be asking them the questions about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And it's really just unclear, Kaitlan, what that actually may look like in order to avoid a government shutdown.
Will Donald Trump, and JD Vance, as you heard there, back off their demands to raise the national debt limit? Will Speaker Johnson break ranks with Donald Trump to cut deal with Democrats? All huge questions.
But one thing is certain. Congress is getting ready for a shutdown. And how could they get out of the shutdown remains another huge question in the days ahead.
Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes, the shutdown before Christmas.
Manu Raju, thank you for that report. Keep us updated on what you're hearing this hour.
And of course, any deal in the House would need to also pass the Senate, where Democrats still hold the majority for a few more days.
My Democratic source tonight is Massachusetts senator, Elizabeth Warren.
And Senator, it's great to have you here.
[21:05:00]
Hakeem Jeffries is the Democratic Leader in the House. He said earlier that not only was he a no, on this new deal that failed tonight, he was a hell no. What's--
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Yes.
COLLINS: Are you a hell-no? What's your view of this?
WARREN: Look, Leader Jeffries is exactly right on this.
And I find it just laughable that the Republicans are saying, Well, actually, the Republicans couldn't come together and cut a deal, but the Democrats should have gotten out there and saved their sorry butts, and actually pushed through a deal. That's just nuts.
The Republicans can't come together because they can't stick to the deal they originally negotiated. And this is on them.
And it really is the reminder who now runs the Republican Party, and it's Musk. He is the one who started tweeting at 04:30, this morning, about what a bad deal this was, and how terrible it was.
And Donald Trump trails along much, much later, and says, Yes, terrible deal. And then Donald Trump is the one who says, You know, maybe we should get rid of the debt ceiling altogether.
But is that what the Republicans proposed? No. What the Republicans say is, Let's just do a little period of time of getting rid of it, long enough to be able to grease the skids to be able to pass a big, big tax giveaway to billionaires.
COLLINS: So you don't think Democrats should step in to help Republicans here.
But on the debt ceiling--
WARREN: What, this deal? No.
COLLINS: On the debt ceiling, which is the max that the government can borrow. It's something that, we almost saw how catastrophic that could be, not long ago, when they went -- over defaulting on the nation's debt.
You said that you agreed with Trump--
WARREN: I do.
COLLINS: --when he said that Congress should terminate the debt limit, not have to govern by hostage-taking, as you put it.
WARREN: Right.
COLLINS: But then, when Republicans put forward this idea of raising it for two more years, you said that that would be -- it would grease the wheels for his tax handouts for billionaires in a terrible deal.
What do you want to see happen here?
WARREN: So, look, I want to see us get rid of the debt ceiling. I've wanted that for years. Because year after year after year after year, the Republicans have used the debt ceiling, in order to hold our economy, and our nation, and our good name around the world, hostage.
And when Donald Trump says, Just get rid of it, it is not good for our country? Boy, I think he is exactly right on that.
But that is not what Elon Musk and the Republicans went for in the House. What they said is, Let's preserve the debt ceiling, to be able to use it as cudgel whenever we want. But let's just open up this narrow path. While the Republicans are trying to pass a $4.5 trillion giveaway in taxes that will mostly be sucked up by millionaires, billionaires and giant corporations. Let's just open a path for them to be able to do that, without ever having to worry about the debt ceiling.
COLLINS: Yes, but there are some Democrat colleagues of yours who seem to say, We do kind of want to hold on to the debt ceiling. Because it may be the only point of leverage your party has in a few months from now.
WARREN: Look, the way I see it is we have watched over and over and over as the Republicans have held our economy, hostage.
And when Donald Trump says, Let's just make a deal and get rid of it altogether? I hear him on that.
When Elon Musk and the rest of the Republicans say, Let's just create a little path, so we can pass a $4.5 trillion tax cut? That's a terrible deal, and nobody should go for that.
COLLINS: And so, your view here is that Elon Musk is in charge, not Donald Trump.
WARREN: I think that's pretty clear. Look at the timeline on how this unfolded, and look at what was ultimately proposed. It was not Donald Trump's proposal that went to the House. It was Elon Musk's proposal. Looks like to me that Elon's number one.
COLLINS: But Trump did throw in the demand there for the debt ceiling, which was not something that Elon Musk -- they had -- they opposed, essentially the deal that Mike Johnson had negotiated with Democrats, but for different reasons.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: Elon Musk didn't like everything that was included in it. Trump wanted to add the debt ceiling to that.
WARREN: But we actually are now getting our first taste, this is it, live and in living color, about what it means to have this DOGE, right out here, and what that's going to mean. And that's where Elon Musk's fingerprints are all over this.
Because, for example, what this bill says is, Oh, let's get rid of funding for research on pediatric cancer. Let's get rid of funding for research on early detection of cervical cancer and breast cancer. Let's get rid of funding for research on children with Down syndrome and on sickle cell anemia. Let's get rid of those things so that we can make way for tax cuts for billionaires. That is Elon Musk's notion of efficiency.
COLLINS: Is this what -- you know, we talk about what it looks like when Democrats are in the minority, and Republicans are about to have total control of government. How does that look different, now that Elon Musk is part of this, and is something that is going to be in this in your view.
[21:10:00]
WARREN: So, I think the dynamic has now changed. We've never seen this before, in American history, where a billionaire who obviously contributed a lot to the campaign, a billionaire donor, is now calling the shots with the majority party, and telling the majority party that they will do what he wants.
And if they don't, implying he's going to spend his money, and encourage people to run against them in the primaries.
COLLINS: I don't think he implied. He outright said that he would primary them. That they--
WARREN: OK. Fair enough. I'm trying to be diplomatic.
COLLINS: --that they would face political ruin if they did not.
WARREN: I will stop them.
COLLINS: Can I ask you, though. Because we're talking about the leader of the Republican Party. We're talking about Donald Trump, Elon Musk. We're hearing from Democratic leaders here.
President Biden has been very quiet on this.
WARREN: Yes.
COLLINS: Are you surprised that he has not weighed in more?
WARREN: Right now, he's just watching the Republicans eat each other alive.
And that's what -- that's -- the Republicans are in charge in the House. They have to initiate the spending bill that gets us this ongoing resolution to keep the government open. Those are just the laws. And right now, the Republicans can't get their act together to make that happen.
COLLINS: And you don't think President Biden should weigh in?
WARREN: Do you think he's going to help the Republicans negotiate a deal? I just don't see where that comes from.
COLLINS: Well, just necessarily more on like what his party should do, how Democrats should handle this, their view of this.
WARREN: Yes, we are handling this.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Stand of (ph) the President.
WARREN: We are saying to the Republicans, We've spent months negotiating a deal with you. And there are parts in it that we didn't like. There were parts in it you didn't like. That's the nature of legislation in this place.
But we actually cut a deal that's going to be the continuing resolution, keeps the government open until next March, so you can get yourselves organized, when you own the House, the Senate and the White House, and you can put the full budget on the table.
That sounds, to me, like a pretty damn good deal that was available to the Republicans.
And yet, here it was going forward. We were all talking about, Oh, the vote, will it be at 11 o'clock this morning, or 2 o'clock this afternoon. We'll get this done.
And the answer is, Elon Musk gets on X at 04:30 in the morning, and the whole deal shatters.
COLLINS: Is it clear to you who Senator Schumer should be calling and negotiating with, at this point? Is it Speaker Mike Johnson? Is it Donald Trump? Is it Elon Musk?
WARREN: Let me say this one more time. There is no one, for Leader Schumer to negotiate with. The Republicans can't get their own act together. And until they can, there is nothing for us to do.
We have a deal. There is a deal sitting on the table. You know what? The Republicans, right now, could go back over there and vote. Send the deal that had been negotiated. Which would pass, because it would have bipartisan support. Send it over the Senate. I predict, it would pass the Senate, and we would be done. Crisis averted.
But the Republicans would rather have a crisis, would rather blow this up, because they're all doing whatever the great and powerful Mr. Musk wants them to do.
COLLINS: Do you think there's going to be a government shutdown?
WARREN: Ask Elon Musk.
COLLINS: Senator Elizabeth Warren, we'll see if he joins us out here on the balcony. Thank you for that.
Up next. We're going to talk to two House Republicans, out here, following their votes tonight. One voted for, one voted against, the Republican spending bill. We'll talk about why.
Plus, there was an extraordinary scene today, as that alleged CEO killer returned to New York, facing additional federal charges. Why Luigi Mangione could now be facing the death penalty. That's ahead.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You once said that using the -- that using the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge just could not happen. You -- you said that when you were in the Oval Office.
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: Sure, that's when I was president.
COLLINS: So why is it different now that you're out of office?
TRUMP: Because now I'm not president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was Donald Trump, when the U.S. was on the brink of defaulting on its debt for the first time ever, not only downplaying the severity of that, but also making clear, his view depends on whether he is in office or not.
It's exactly that shift on something that has long been a pillar of fiscal conservatism, that has prompted this sort of frustration, that we have heard from fellow Republicans tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): You can't lift the debt ceiling or suspend the debt ceiling without actual, structural reform to save money. That's the bottom line. If you're just going to go add... it's like limiting, you know, increasing your credit card limit while you don't do anything to actually constrain spending.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources tonight, a pair of House Republicans.
Georgia congressman, Rich McCormick.
And New York congressman, Mike Lawler.
Great to have you both here.
We saw this spending deal that was voted down earlier. You voted no, on this deal, defying Trump and Musk, who've said that Republicans should vote for it. Why did you vote no?
REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): It's still an omnibus. You take a continuing resolution, you add money to it. I've always voted against a continuing resolution. I'm staying consistent with my thought process.
We promise to do something new in this Congress. Since I've been in Congress, for two years now, we still have money. You want to know why FEMA went bankrupt, couldn't afford these hurricanes? Because 40 percent of it, in 2024, went towards COVID relief, 40 percent in 2024.
And guess what we just voted to do again? Put another 40 percent in 2025 towards COVID. The pandemic's been over for three years, and we're still misappropriating funds to the wrong places.
That's why we have to emergency bailout. That's why SNAP consumes most of the agriculture budget, because we don't have a spine to do what's right.
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: And so you voted yes, on this deal, saying that it was worth it to keep the government open, even though it did have things that Republicans typically would not vote for, without having some negotiations first, including raising the debt ceiling for two more years.
Why did you vote yes?
REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, first of all, I have always been very clear that I am not for shutting the government down. It doesn't actually save us money, and, in fact, would cost us money.
I agree with my colleague. We do need to rein in the size and scope of the federal government. The problem right now is Joe Biden is the President of the United States. And by the way, where is he? Has anybody heard from him? He has not even weighed in on this subject matter. The fact is--
COLLINS: Well Elizabeth Warren just said, it's Republicans who can't get in on the same page--
LAWLER: The fact is--
COLLINS: --so, it's Republicans who should be making that decision.
LAWLER: Well, laughably, Elizabeth Warren is in the majority of the United States Senate for another month. The Senate Democrats have not passed one single appropriations bill, which is why we're dealing with the CR in the first place.
So all I would say is, look, we have a responsibility to keep the government open. Democrats can act as though this is not their problem. They still control the White House and the Senate, as of this moment.
The fact is, we do have to keep the government funded. Democrats, today in the House, voted to shut the government down. They voted to block disaster relief. They voted to block aid to our farmers.
The fact is, we have Republicans who have never voted for a CR, never voted to lift the debt ceiling before.
The reality of the debt ceiling is this. It has been used as a political weapon for the party out of power. They try to use it to extract things that they want, whether it be spending cuts, whether it be spending increases. Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer fought to get spending increases, while Donald Trump was president.
President Trump is saying, very clearly, Look, we have a lot of work to do. I do not want the debt ceiling being used as leverage.
That's why House Democrats voted no, today. Not because they objected to a clean CR. Not because they objected to disaster relief. No. They objected to their leverage being taken away from them in future negotiations. That's why they voted no.
COLLINS: But can I say?
LAWLER: And that's wrong--
COLLINS: One--
LAWLER: As we head into the holiday season.
COLLINS: --the House does not have a very good track record on passing its appropriations bill. So, I wouldn't really--
LAWLER: We passed a number of our appropriation bills through--
COLLINS: I think half of them initially.
LAWLER: --through the House floor.
COLLINS: OK.
LAWLER: We passed every single one through committee.
COLLINS: I'm just saying, you don't have a very good--
LAWLER: Senate Democrats have passed zero.
COLLINS: I'm just saying, you don't have a very good track record on that.
But you're talking about Democrats and how they feel about the debt ceiling.
LAWLER: We passed more than the Senate Democrats.
COLLINS: We just spoke to a Democratic senator about that.
But you're two Republicans here. We're 24 hours away from a shutdown. You voted differently on a bill tonight that would have saved this. The question is, those Republicans not being able to get on the same page here. So do you -- what happens next? Have you heard from leadership about what the plan is, going forward?
MCCORMICK: That's been my big frustration, to begin with. We brought this yesterday. Everybody said, Oh, this is a horrible bill. We didn't bring it to the floor, because everybody knew it was going to be defeated.
Then today, we launched this bill without talking to really anybody in the Conference about what we changed. And then, I was accused of surprising people, of blindsiding people, by my opinion, when I was never consulted in the first place.
This is a leadership challenge that Mike Johnson has to define himself with. Are you going to get the right input from the right people to get this bill passed? Because, quite frankly, you can't do it in a vacuum. And it doesn't matter because, quite frankly -- last time I checked, Elon Musk doesn't have a vote in Congress. Now, he has influence, and he will put pressure on us to do whatever he thinks the right thing is for him. But I have 760,000 people that voted for me, to do the right thing for them, and that's what matters to me.
COLLINS: Elon Musk is not an elected official, which people have pointed out. And he's kind of been downplaying his influence here. But it's pretty obvious.
Are you comfortable with how much influence he's had on how House Republicans have voted here?
LAWLER: Look, he obviously, as owner of X, has a very big platform to have a voice and an opinion in the process. And obviously, given his relationship with President Trump, is certainly going to utilize that.
But to me, at the end of the day, as Rich just said, we're all elected in our own right, and our job is to represent our constituency and our district. My district is a district Joe Biden won by 10 points. Kamala Harris won. I'm one of only three Harris-won Republicans in the House in the 119th Congress.
So, I will always do what I think is right, which is why, to me, the right answer here was to keep the government funded. And why I find it so jarring that every single Democrat, except two, voted to shut the government down, not because they didn't agree--
COLLINS: But so did 38 House Republicans.
LAWLER: --not because they didn't--
COLLINS: Including the one sitting right here.
LAWLER: Yes, Kaitlan.
MCCORMICK: Totally different reasons though.
LAWLER: Kaitlan.
MCCORMICK: Totally different reasons.
COLLINS: But--
LAWLER: Totally different reasons.
COLLINS: But you still voted the same way.
LAWLER: Yes, but Kaitlan, here's--
COLLINS: There's 38 House--
LAWLER: --here's what I think you're missing. Here's--
COLLINS: I know. But 38 House Republicans voted against this.
LAWLER: Yes, but -- Kaitlan, here's what you're missing.
COLLINS: You're counting on the Democrats.
LAWLER: Right. And a 197 Democrats voted against it.
COLLINS: But the deal that they had negotiated--
LAWLER: And the reality is--
COLLINS: --was blown up yesterday.
LAWLER: Well they -- they negotiated a deal that included a lot of pet projects that they wanted. The fact is--
COLLINS: But isn't that your problem with Speaker Mike Johnson, who negotiated--
LAWLER: The fact is--
COLLINS: --that deal with them?
LAWLER: No, look, the--
COLLINS: Yes, though?
LAWLER: When you have a House Republican majority--
COLLINS: But a Republican House Speaker negotiated that deal.
LAWLER: Let me answer it, please?
COLLINS: Right?
LAWLER: When you -- would you like me to answer, or you want to debate it?
[21:25:00]
House, Republican majority. Senate, Democrat majority. Democrat in the White House. Where has Joe Biden been in any of these discussions? What did Chuck Schumer do in any of these discussions? Nothing.
So, you want to just focus on House Republicans. We put a bill on the floor today to keep the government funded. Yes, some of my colleagues voted no. Some of my colleagues have never voted for a CR, and never voted to increase the debt ceiling. That's their right.
But the fact is, many Democrats have always voted to pass the CR, and increase the debt ceiling. And the reason they didn't do that today is because they don't want to lose leverage in the new Congress.
COLLINS: Can I ask you though--
LAWLER: That, to me, is absolutely pathetic.
COLLINS: But also, part of that was this deal that was negotiated today, was only negotiated among Republicans, and not even among all Republicans, as you noted there. Which has raised the question tonight, about Mike Johnson's future as the House Speaker.
I mean, if the vote were tomorrow, would you vote for him?
MCCORMICK: There's no consensus. I got to see what the plan is. Quite frankly, this is just a step. This is going to be resolved. I think it'll be resolved in short order, maybe tomorrow, maybe in a couple weeks.
COLLINS: How though?
MCCORMICK: Because we're going to sit down and talk as a party. Obviously not tonight. I thought it was going to be done tonight. But there was some negotiation to be done at the top levels that I wasn't privy to, that you weren't privy to. But soon, we'll all be read into it, and then we're going to have to come to some sort of consensus. So, we're not going home.
COLLINS: But what does that look like?
MCCORMICK: Or at least we shouldn't go home.
COLLINS: Does that mean, you know, does -- does talking Trump out of his demand to raise the debt ceiling, which is the maximum limit the government can borrow? What--
MCCORMICK: I would love to see that happen too, by the way.
COLLINS: What does that look like?
MCCORMICK: That's not my objection. Because, I agree, that's a leverage point that's going to hamper us to pass some very good legislation in the future.
But I'm also a guy, who made a promise that we're not going to pass any more omnibus. I'm not voting for an omnibus. I will not do it. Never have. Never will. There's not going to -- you can't give me another promise. For two years, I've been promised that, As soon as this is over, As soon as the election is over.
The election is over, by the way. Now we got to do the right thing. No more -- and only in the first year. Because guess what, we're not going to get more bold next year, when it's election year again.
We have one year to fix this. One year. That should be shocking. If you eat into that three months-wise, with a promise to do the right thing? And I've seen promises fall apart already. Then you have nine months to fix all the world's problems. I'm not down with that.
COLLINS: And your view on Mike Johnson?
LAWLER: Look, Mike Johnson is Speaker. I support him. I will support him on January 3rd.
We don't have the good fortune of having a large majority, all right? We have a 220-seat majority that will go down to 217 at some point. We have to work together, as a team, to get the job done on behalf of the American people. As I've said many times, anybody who's ever been married knows, you have to find compromise. You're not going to get everything you want. So, all of us have a responsibility to work together. That is my commitment.
I think the fact is, we have to focus on the border. We have to focus on the economy. We have to focus on energy, and the international crises that have exploded around the globe--
COLLINS: Yes.
LAWLER: --because of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris' failed policies.
COLLINS: I think this would be described as an arranged marriage, at best. And it's not -- doesn't seem to be going well.
Congressman McCormick and Lawler, thank you both for joining us tonight.
We also have another major story that we're following for you this evening. CEO murder suspect, Luigi Mangione, was flown to New York today. Quite the perp walk that we saw, as he is facing federal charges now. We're learning new details of that notebook that was found on him during his arrest, and what he had written inside of it.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Luigi Mangione, the suspect in the murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson, is being held in a notorious federal prison in New York. It's the same one that Diddy is actually being held at right now, as he awaits his trial.
But it's been a whirlwind day for Mangione. As you can see here, he had cameras tracking his every move. He was surrounded by dozens of heavily-armed officers, during a two-state courthouse tour today that ended ultimately in New York, where he was hit with four new federal charges, including murder.
The new federal complaint also includes new revelations about that notebook that officials say he had on him, when he was arrested at McDonald's, in Pennsylvania, including one entry in the notebook that stated, quote, The target is insurance because, quote, It checks every box. And another that went on to describe an intent to wack the chief executive of an insurance company.
My sources tonight are:
Former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.
And the former FBI Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe.
Can we just talk about that video that we're seeing there, Andrew, where you're watching Luigi Mangione being escorted in, from the helicopter, after he -- had taken the trip to New York. He gets off. It's a long walk before he gets in.
Don't people normally go out of their way to avoid kind of a dramatic perp walk, like this one?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY FBI DIRECTOR: Totally. Totally. So perp walks have been disfavored for many years. They're considered to be prejudicial to the defendant.
Now, this is an odd situation. It's not every defendant who gets flown in from another state, and then taken by helicopter to the heliport. And then, he's a high-profile guy. He's a highly dangerous individual. He's got attracted a lot of attention online. So, you want to do that very carefully.
But you got a really hard argument to make that you need the Mayor and the Police Chief there. This was something beyond just a prisoner transport. This was a statement of what, I'm not sure. But yes, I don't expect you'll ever see that again.
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: Well, and there's questions about -- you know, he already has popularity and support in several corners of the internet that we've seen. He's getting deposits in his commissary accounts. One of his attorneys said that they were getting public donations or offers to help pay for his legal bills.
But is there a reverse side of this, where the defense can say, Look at how prosecutors are treating him, and how this is being handled, compared to a typical defendant?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: They could say that. The jury pool is being tainted by the fact that they are trotting this defendant, out in public, and allowing the public in New York that's going to have to hold him in judgment, to come to conclusions about him and his conduct.
So certainly, they could say, you know, Andrew talked about this idea of prejudicial to the defendant, meaning that inviting people to bring in negative ideas about him and his potential conduct. So, it's very problematic.
It's also -- there's also a risk of harm to the individual. When you have a high-attention defendant, part of the reason why you don't want them to be getting publicity is you don't want them out in public and walking the streets. Now, yes, he had law enforcement or a phalanx of armed officers around him. But there's still a safety risk to this person before he goes to trial.
COLLINS: Brynn Gingras said there were tourists who were out there, because this is a pretty--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --public part of Manhattan where he was.
MCCABE: It's very public.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: There were tourists out there with their phones out, watching this.
But on this federal complaint that was unveiled today, which I do want to talk about in terms of just the charges.
But there were notes from him, including the one where he said, talked about whacking an executive, allegedly. Another one that said, details are finally coming together, and I'm glad - in a way - that I've procrastinated, because it's allowed me to learn more, about the company he was targeting.
That sounds like a real problem for his defense team.
MCCABE: Devastating evidence. Devastating evidence. It goes right to his state of mind. It shows him to be engaged in this premeditation from a long period, talking about months and months, right? You've got August and October are some of the dates of those statements in the complaint.
So, to that piece of the crime that's always the hardest to prove, that is the defendant's state of mind? All of these statements are terrific evidence for the prosecutors, in that regard.
COLLINS: Can you -- the defense team, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, who is his attorney, representing him today, seemed very confused, while she was in court, about this sudden appearance of federal charges that happened today.
Obviously, where he was, and where he was being fingerprinted, is exactly where Donald Trump himself was actually fingerprinted for the courthouse that everyone was paying attention to.
But it apparently took not just Mangione's attorneys by surprise, but also the Manhattan District Attorney, Alvin Bragg.
WILLIAMS: Right. Well, most crimes are state and local crimes. Somebody does something against somebody else, they're usually violating some state or local law. It gets bumped up to a federal law, when any number of factors happen.
Here, prosecutors found, or at least are alleging, evidence, of crossing state lines, using telephones, using cell phones, stalking at the federal level.
Look, defense attorneys are surprised all the time, when charges come. As long as they make the defendant aware of them, and he has an opportunity to respond to them, his rights are being protected, so.
COLLINS: And this means that they could see the death penalty against him.
WILLIAMS: Yes. COLLINS: But it's not clear, if they -- they haven't said yet that they are going to do that.
MCCABE: They can. The statute makes it eligible. But that is a very long process.
And ultimately, it comes down to a conversation between the U.S. Attorney. Here, it would be the Southern District. And the Attorney General. If the U.S. Attorney requests that the Attorney General authorize it, then it's entirely in their hands to determine.
And a big factor there will be, which U.S. attorney are we talking about? Likely an attorney -- U.S. attorney under President Trump.
COLLINS: Yes, a fascinating development. We'll continue to keep an eye on it.
Andrew McCabe. Elliot Williams. Great to have you both here to break that down.
Meanwhile, tonight, as the building behind me is hurtling toward a government shutdown, at least in part, instigated by Elon Musk, there is one Republican senator, who is suggesting maybe Elon Musk should become Speaker of the House.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we're hearing a lot of blame from Democrats, up here on Capitol Hill, for the world's richest man, Elon Musk, saying that they are putting the government -- that he is responsible for putting the government on the brink of a government shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D-VA): I didn't vote for Elon Musk, and neither did the American people.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): The Senate Democrats, the Senate Republicans, the House Democrats, the House Republicans, everybody agreed. And then it was blown up by Elon Musk, who apparently has become the fourth branch of government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: This is coming, as we are hearing from one Republican senator, Rand Paul, with another idea to break the Republican logjam that we are seeing. He posted tonight, quote, "The Speaker of the House need not be a member of Congress . . . Nothing would disrupt the swamp more than electing Elon Musk."
My source tonight is Kara Swisher, who is the veteran tech insider and host of the podcasts, "On with Kara Swisher" and "Pivot."
Kara. I mean, it might sound crazy. KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, HOST, "ON WITH KARA SWISHER" & "PIVOT" PODCASTS: Yes.
COLLINS: But is House Speaker Elon Musk, really that far out of the realm of possibility here?
SWISHER: It's out of the realm of possibility. I mean, it's just -- this is just them doing this. And he likes the attention, I suppose. The members that were suggesting it are far out to the right. And so, it was just a suggestion. He also couldn't be third in line for President, I think, correct? Because he's not in America -- he wasn't born in America.
But I don't know, it's just silliness. The whole thing is silliness and chaos, which is what he's well-known for, in Silicon Valley. So welcome. Welcome to Silicon Valley, Washington, D.C.
COLLINS: I had actually just asked those two House Republicans that I had here with me, if he could actually be in line for the presidency. And they all -- we all came to the same agreement, no, because of where he was born.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: But on the just influence that he is having, overall in this, I mean, that is undeniable.
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: And he's saying--
SWISHER: Yes.
COLLINS: --the deal was brokered by Trump and Johnson. But he's obviously had a very big role here.
SWISHER: Yes.
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: And I wonder what you make of the Democrats' efforts to say, Vice President Musk, or even President Musk, to clearly try to get under Donald Trump's skin.
SWISHER: I think it's a good idea to do that.
And you can see the power here. He's threatening Republican lawmakers. He said he's going to primary them. His money is -- he's doubled his fortune in just a short time since the election, from around $200 billion to $400 billion or more. He has the means to do it. And so, he's making not very underhanded threats. They're very explicit threats to these congresspeople, who go against him, or go against Donald Trump.
I'm not sure if they're working in concert together. There were about a 150 tweets, I think, he did, starting in the early morning, which seems strange. But there it is. That's what he does. He does a volley of them in sort of a manic way. And we'll see if it works.
It's a different way of doing politics, that's for sure. It's not subtle. It's like -- it's like a hammer. And we'll see if this kind of hammer will work. I don't think it will, because that's not how Washington works. But maybe, you know, these people are -- there's an expression in Silicon Valley called Chaos Monkey. Well, welcome to the Chaos Monkeys.
COLLINS: Chaos Monkey?
SWISHER: Yes, it means disruptive.
COLLINS: And what does that entail?
SWISHER: Disruptive.
COLLINS: Doesn't sound good.
SWISHER: It means a lot of different things. There's been some -- yes, it doesn't sound good. Think about a monkey with chaos. Monkeys are already chaotic, but a particularly chaotic monkey is a Chaos Monkey. That's just an expression about sort of disrupting. And that's the idea in Silicon Valley, is constant disruption, and that's what you're seeing here.
COLLINS: When you started covering Elon Musk, at the beginning, and you've interviewed him a million times, did you ever think that you would see it in the situation and the dynamic that we're seeing now? Where, if you talk to Trump folks, they love him. I mean, he's at dinner with Trump and Jeff Bezos.
SWISHER: Sure.
COLLINS: He's around him all the time. Trump certainly, obviously cares what he thinks.
SWISHER: Sure.
COLLINS: Were you surprised by him?
SWISHER: He's changed quite a bit. Those who have known him for a long time, it's not the person any of us dealt with a while -- not too long ago, in fact, actually, just in the first Trump administration, it was.
He could be off-hand. He could be difficult and everything else. And I'm talking about -- I didn't know some of the earlier things he was doing around his kids, and things like that. But he could be like that. But it's not like this. This is a whole another level. And seems manic to me. It seems megalomaniacal. But this is the way he operates. He does think he's Tony Stark on some level, I guess, the Iron Man or something like that, and so.
That thing with Bezos was pretty funny, yesterday. I don't think Bezos was expecting for him to show up. And they have a very rough relationship, I'd say. And so, he looked like he swallowed his tongue, when Elon showed up. But I don't know.
COLLINS: Chaos Monkey. I'm going to start using that term.
Kara Swisher, thank you for joining tonight.
SWISHER: There's a whole book. There's a good book about it. It's a good book. You should read it.
COLLINS: I'll get it. Perspective now -- thank you, Kara.
Perspective now, from my political sources.
Maria Cardona is here. She is a Democratic strategist.
And also Jonah Goldberg, who is the Editor-in-Chief of The Dispatch.
Chaos Monkey. Welcome to Washington.
I mean, Jonah, your thoughts?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE DISPATCH: Yes, I think escape monkey from a cocaine study is a better image.
But, look, I mean, the thing about being a disrupter is, in Silicon Valley, is you're not actually violating laws, right? You're not violating proceed -- you can set the procedures by overturning the apple cart, and no one can correct you if you're the CEO of a company.
Congress has, like, rules. It cannot change on a dime. They're codified in law. And this whole idea of doing it this way? I mean, look, it's axiomatic. We can't be for -- we can't be sure about what they're doing, if they don't know what they're doing. And I'm not sure that they know what they're doing.
The idea to do all of this, at the moment when the Democrats have the last bit of actual institutional power? They control the presidency. They control the Senate. Seems insane to me. But maybe they've got a plan that I just cannot see.
COLLINS: Maria, I mean, obviously -- oh, I'm not sure about that. But we'll see.
But obviously, there are people who like Elon Musk, who like his influence, and think, Maybe that's a good thing to bring into Washington and to inject into this. I mean, what would you say, as a Democrat, to those voices?
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: That the people who voted for Donald Trump, who are not MAGA, voted for him because they believed that he was going to prioritize bringing down grocery prices, working on housing issues, and bringing down inflation. This is the furthest thing from any of that.
That Donald Trump and Elon Musk, and Vivek, and the whole billionaire class, the oligarchs that are now going to be in power when Donald Trump gets inaugurated? They don't care about that.
And in fact, you can kind of see it. Some of those people might like Elon Musk, some of the MAGA people who voted for him. But look what he did just now. He blew up a bill that had been negotiated, in a bipartisan way, between Democrats and Republicans, in an incredibly divided Congress, right?
[21:50:00]
This was going to be signed, and we were going to be OK on a government shutdown. Elon Musk essentially tweeted, or posted, on X, that it's OK if we shut down the government, it won't matter. That is somebody, who doesn't understand what a government shutdown means, both economically to the country.
When the government shut down in 2018 to 2019, for five weeks, it cost the government $3 billion. People, working people, will not get paid over the holidays. Elon Musk doesn't care.
So, to me, it demonstrates, and I think it gives Democrats a great messaging opportunity, to underscore how Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Vivek, and again, the whole oligarch class, the billionaires who now are going to run the government, don't care about governing, are clueless about how to do it, and that is not in the best interests of the American people.
COLLINS: Jonah, what is your reaction when you hear the Republicans who are out there, who are looking at this and saying, OK, well shut the government down. Like, there is this kind of a cavalier attitude from some foreigners (ph), not from the Mike Lawlers of the world, who was just here. He's always, to his credit, when we've had him on at these moments that, We shouldn't shut down the government.
But there are some who say, OK, do it. It doesn't actually make that big of a difference.
I think Elon Musk himself actually articulated that argument.
CARDONA: He did.
GOLDBERG: Yes.
COLLINS: On Twitter.
GOLDBERG: I mean, there's a long tradition of some Republicans thinking, This time it will work for us. Right? And it virtually never does.
I think sort of the political -- the interesting political story, to me here, is that this is the first time in the Trump era, where Elon Musk -- whether you want to call him President Musk, or all that kind of stuff. I mean, the trolling is smart from Democrats, but it kind of misses the point.
This is the first time that Donald Trump has been out-populisted, out- MAGA-ed, by somebody else. CARDONA: Yes.
GOLDBERG: He -- Musk grab the spotlight on social media. He drove the agenda with Trump's base, in a way that has never happened before. Marjorie Taylor Greene couldn't do that. Matt Gaetz couldn't do that. None of them could do that. All of their power are derived from Trump. Even Tucker couldn't do that.
This is the first time somebody said, Shine the spotlight on me, I'm driving the agenda. And it worked. And I can't imagine Trump is going to love that.
COLLINS: That's a really interesting point, in the sense of just what his influence power is.
And given that, I mean, Democrats are about to be in the minority. They'll still clearly have a hand here, as we're seeing with Hakeem Jeffries tonight.
CARDONA: Right.
COLLINS: And a very small majority that Mike Johnson will have.
How do Democrats handle something like that, and someone who can so easily disrupt the best-negotiated plans they have with the Republicans?
CARDONA: I think by pointing it out, and by pointing out how uninterested they are, in actually helping the American people who voted them into power.
And so, I think, moving forward, it is going to be interesting to see how they do -- they, the Republicans, deal with this, because they are the ones who are in a debacle themselves. They can't agree amongst themselves. Let's remember, Democrats were ready to vote for this bipartisan approach. They blew it up. Elon Musk blew it up. It's going to be on them, if the government shuts down.
COLLINS: Maria Cardona. Jonah Goldberg. Lot of great visuals this hour. Thank you for that.
Up next. There is major news in that only criminal case that was left standing against President-elect Trump. The Fulton County District Attorney, Fani Willis, just disqualified from the case, by an appeals court. Does this mean the end of Trump's prosecutions?
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Another one bites the dust. That is how Donald Trump reacted after notching a major legal win, today, following news that an appeals court was disqualifying the Fulton County District Attorney, Fani Willis, from the Georgia election case.
It is the only criminal case left undecided, against the President- elect, and the appeals court found it was tainted, quote, By a significant appearance of impropriety. That is, in effect, reversing an earlier decision, allowing her to stay on the case, despite her relationship with Nathan Wade, the prosecutor that she hired to work on that case.
Willis is responding, tonight, by asking the Georgia Supreme Court to overturn this ruling.
But if they don't, for the case to continue against more than a dozen defendants here, including the President-elect, a new special prosecutor would have to be appointed.
Which Nathan Wade, that other special prosecutor, and I talked about, when I interviewed him a few months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What happens to this case, if Fani Willis is removed, as the prosecutor here?
NATHAN WADE, FORMER FULTON COUNTY SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Well, the case has to be reassigned to another prosecuting entity. Now, whether or not that entity decides to proceed? I don't know.
COLLINS: But do you think there's a chance that it would be potentially dead, if no other prosecutor is ready to step up to the plate and take this case?
WADE: Well, we're talking about a threat to democracy. This case is about democracy. It's very important to you, to me as an attorney. The rule of law is something that we all should take seriously.
[22:00:00]
I couldn't tell you whether or not there are other prosecutors that are willing and waiting, and excited about accepting this task, particularly, particularly in light of the threats that I've been getting, and the threats that District Attorney Willis had been getting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I should note, CNN spoke tonight, with the person responsible for appointing a new attorney to oversee that case, who said, quote, It won't be an easy lift.
We'll keep you updated on how that develops, and how her appeal turns out.
Thank you all so much for joining us, live on Capitol Hill, for a very busy hour.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
