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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Administration Fires Top General, Navy Chief In Unprecedented Purge Of U.S. Military Leadership; Trump & Maine Gov. Spar Over Trans Rights & School Funding; Trump Suggests Zelenskyy Not "Important" Enough For Talks. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 21, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Wait, the therapist told you, you're going to win?
BILL GATES, FORMER CEO OF MICROSOFT: Yes. At the end of the second session, he's like, What are you after here? Isn't it, kind of more being recognized or succeeding, and aren't they really on your side? And he refocused my energy utterly that giving my parents a hard time was not the path to anything.
COOPER: He appealed to your logic.
GATES: Exactly.
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COOPER: "THE WHOLE STORY" airs this Sunday night, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. Have a great weekend.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.
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KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: As we come on the air this Friday night, a major purge at the Pentagon is underway. President Trump has just fired the highest-ranking military officer in the country, who still had years left on his term, along with several other top military officials.
Air Force General Charles "CQ" Brown, who was serving as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was just dismissed publicly, at least, via a social media post by Trump. That's how we found out that Brown's 40-year distinguished career in the military was over, in a long- rumored move that may be shocking, but is not exactly surprising, based on our reporting.
Just hours ago, General Brown was at the southern border, assessing the military's progress, and fortifying sections of the border wall.
He was the successor in this role. You'll remember the person who served before him, General Mark Milley. That was who Trump handpicked, actually, to be the Joint Chiefs Chairman, in his first term in office. Things deteriorated from there. But Milley continued on in this role under President Biden.
Now, in this post tonight, when we read it closely, the President gave no reason for why he is ousting Chairman Brown from this role, only thanking him for his service and announcing his replacement. More on who that replacement is, in a moment.
But behind this decision, we know Trump had been weighing, replacing CQ Brown, for months.
Last November, then-Fox News host, and now the current Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, gave this reason for why he thought Brown should be fired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, first of all, you got to fire, you know, you got to fire the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and you got to fire this -- you know, I mean, obviously you're going to bring in a new Secretary of Defense. But any general that was involved, general, admiral, whatever, that was involved in any of the DEI woke (bleep) has got to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, that was before Hegseth had been nominated to be the Defense Secretary, accusing the four-star fighter pilot as being, quote, involved in any of the woke DEI.
Was quite a contrast to what we saw, and heard from Secretary Hegseth, weeks later, when he said he was looking forward to working with Chairman CQ Brown, who saluted Hegseth's motorcade upon his first arrival at the Pentagon in January.
Now, to put this in perspective to you, for you tonight, of this -- of this firing, and what this means, and how unprecedented this is. A prominent, retired four-star general expressed serious dismay over this to me, given the top military adviser has traditionally remained in place, despite how administrations change, from party to party. This general told me tonight that this move, firing CQ Brown is, quote, Sadly political and tragic for our nation.
I have a team of sources here on this breaking news.
Chris Meagher, who was an assistant under the former Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin.
CNN's Pentagon Correspondent, Oren Liebermann. CNN Military Analyst, Colonel Cedric Leighton.
And also, CNN Military Analyst, retired Major General, James "Spider" Marks, is also here with us.
Great to have all of our experts.
Oren, what can you just tell us? Because it is much more than just CQ Brown that is being ousted here.
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The firing in this way, on social media, on a Friday night, of General CQ Brown, the top U.S. military officer, is, in and of itself, unprecedented, even if, as you point out, it had been expected.
The right-wing had had it out for Brown, for quite some time. Frankly, we thought the firing might come earlier. But it's worth remembering that Trump and Brown met at the Army-Navy Game. That seemed to be a bit of warming of relations. That, as we see, didn't last all that long. Brown fired, on social media.
Trump hinted there would be more firings to come. And just a few moments later, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced that Admiral Lisa Franchetti, the Chief of the Navy, and the first female on the Joint Chiefs of Staff had been fired, as well as the Vice Chief of the Air Force.
And he hinted or indicated that the JAGs, the Judge Advocates Generals, would be replaced for the Army, Navy and the Air Force. That too is unprecedented.
According to a former JAG we spoke with, the JAGs are the conscience of the military. They tell you what's right and what's wrong. They defend and they prosecute troops. They are essentially the guidance, the moral and ethical guidance for how you act as a member of the Armed Services.
And yet, Pete Hegseth has had it out for them. In his book, last year, he called them Jagoffs? And he even questioned the value of the Geneva Conventions, which is the international law on how to fight a war. So he's had it out for the JAGs. And the question, of course, who's going to replace them.
COLLINS: Which he was asked about at his confirmation hearing.
Have we ever seen two members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff fired at once?
LIEBERMANN: Not that I know of.
COLLINS: I'm not even sure we've ever seen a--
LIEBERMANN: And that's part of what makes this--
COLLINS: --a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff fired.
[21:05:00]
LIEBERMANN: They've been -- they haven't been renewed when -- back when it was two-year terms. And there have been dismissals of four- stars. But the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, moments before the Chief of the Navy, is beyond extraordinary.
COLLINS: Chris Meagher, I mean, you were just working at the Pentagon when President Biden was in office. You worked with Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin. But you also worked with Chairman CQ Brown. What can you tell us about him?
CHRIS MEAGHER, FORMER ASST. TO THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Yes, Kaitlan, Chairman Brown is exactly who you want in this position.
He's calm. He's steady. He knows his stuff. He advises the Secretary, and the President, on the most critical national security matters that are going on in the world, and allows for them to make informed decisions. Not only that. He's an experienced war fighter.
We're kicking to the curb somebody who served his country for 40 years, as a fighter pilot, as somebody who commanded forces, overseas, in war zones. He brings that experience to the table, when he's making this -- these recommendations to the Secretary and to the President.
COLLINS: Yes, it's a good point about the experience there.
But also, this is just -- it's a role that's typically insulated from politics. I mean, Trump had picked Chairman Mark Milley, and Biden kept him on. Typically, they stay on, and that's why they have that now-four-year term.
But what does this say about the move here, and putting politics into this role?
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Yes, Kaitlan, this is a very dangerous moment. Because once you put politics into this, it really inflames the military body, the people that are in the military.
And one of the key things, you pointed out what a war fighter, General Brown actually is. And he has -- he had experience not only in the Central Command theater of operations, in other words, the Middle East, but also in the Pacific Theater.
He was Commander of Pacific Air Forces. And that is where the country says it's going, when it comes to force projection against China, defending Taiwan, those kinds of things. And whether we defend Taiwan or not, of course, is another question.
But the key thing here is this. You've got a person, who has a vast amount of experience that you're kicking to the curb, and it has a significant impact, not only on the force itself, but on specific components of the force.
I was in contact with one of my friends from the Air Force, who happens to be African-American. They are looking at this in a very, very negative light, and that's going to, I think, be a real problem for morale in the force, and for the ability to carry this force forward in a non-political way.
COLLINS: Spider Marks is also here with us.
Spider, just your takeaways.
As we had -- we had heard that this was coming. There was word that there was a list being sent to Capitol Hill. But Republicans, the top Republicans on the Armed Services Committee in the Senate, were telling us, yesterday, they hadn't heard anything about this, they didn't know. But now it has actually come to light.
MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, U.S. ARMY (RET.), HEAD OF GEOPOLITICAL STRATEGY, ACADEMY SECURITIES: Yes, I think we need to realize, and we can take this off the table, both CQ Brown and Lisa Franchetti are war fighters. Their credentials are bespoke. I mean, that's without debate. A 130 combat hours with CQ Brown. And then Lisa Franchetti has commanded the 6th Fleet, which is Europe and Africa. So let's just put that to the side.
But I think we have to realize, look, you serve at the behest of the President of the United States. Absolutely, there are a number of things here that are unprecedented. But we do have some precedent in terms of the length of the terms.
Pete Pace was the Chairman for two years. He left during the Bush administration.
Pete Schoomaker was a retired four-star, was then brought back out of retirement by Rumsfeld to be the Chief of the Army.
John Vessey, back in the 1980s, was the Vice Chief of Staff for the Army. This incredibly, deeply-experienced soldier from a -- you know, a Sergeant World War II, Korea, Vietnam, and then he's the Vice Chief. And he's just beavering away doing his job, and Reagan reaches out and he says, I want this guy in charge. Everybody kind of put their hands up and went, Whoa, OK, boss is in charge now.
So, I get all that. We have to be able to, and it's very difficult in these days, to suck the politics out of this. So, I'm not going to get into any political discussions.
I'm just going to tell you that you've got two very talented folks that are now going to go. I disagree with Cedric. They weren't kicked to the curb. They served. They served honorably, and they have been told, It's time to retire. You salute, and you say, Thank you very much for the honor to serve. And then somebody else is going to come in. And I hope we won't miss a beat. I'm betting we won't miss a beat.
COLLINS: Yes, questions, of course, about readiness, with two members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff leaving.
MARKS: Yes. COLLINS: But on this note, Oren, in terms of Chairman CQ Brown. He had to know this was potentially coming. I mean, after seeing that Pete Hegseth was picked to be Defense Secretary.
He not only made that comment. He actually wrote extensively about CQ Brown in his book, and was complaining about DEI and initiatives that -- comments that Chairman Brown made, before he was picked to be Chairman, after the death of George Floyd.
[21:10:00]
I mean, this must have been a kind of few months where you don't know if you're going to be fired or kept around.
LIEBERMANN: I think that's a fair way to describe it. He was well- aware of the rumors. He was certainly well-aware of what Pete Hegseth had said, just days before he was picked to be Defense Secretary. And yet, and this speaks to Brown's professionalism, they worked together. They held daily meetings, or near-daily meetings.
Brown knew what the mission was. The priority was the southwest border. He was just there, earlier today, before he was fired. And I think that speaks to his professionalism, as somebody who knows what his job is.
He's the top military adviser to the President, by law, and he did that to the best of his abilities, knowing full-well what the rumors and the speculation was behind, the security or lack thereof, of his job.
COLLINS: And the question -- you know, just for someone who doesn't know what this role looks like, on a day-to-day basis, I mean, what is this in terms of their interactions with the White House?
I don't know that we have seen Chairman CQ Brown at the White House, since Trump took office. I was texting someone tonight, asking if they had been there. They weren't sure either. But he has not been a constant or regular presence there in any way.
MEAGHER: Well, I can tell you, in the past administration, in the last administration, under President Biden, CQ Brown was at the White House all the time, along with Secretary Austin.
They had meetings on Russia-Ukraine. They had meetings on Hamas and Israel. They were constantly shuttling back and forth across the river. And when they weren't, they were on the phone with the President, they were on the phone with each other.
We were in meetings every single week. We had a meeting every Tuesday, on Russia-Ukraine to talk about the latest on the ground. Chairman Brown and his team would brief the Secretary, on the latest, what they're seeing in the intel, what they're seeing in reports from the team out in Europe. So, they were very closely linked. They had a really good working relationship.
Again, CQ Brown was exactly the type of person that you needed in this job. He knew his stuff. He knew exactly what the President needed, to make his decisions, and he provided that information.
COLLINS: And Trump announces that he's picked Air Force Lieutenant General Dan "Razin" Caine, as he's known. Was he retired, or?
LIEBERMANN: He was. He had just recently retired. He was a three-star, a Lieutenant General. He had served in a number of different roles.
The role for which it seems Trump knows him, is back during Trump's visit to Iraq in 2018. Caine was serving as the Deputy Commander of Operation Inherent Resolve, the campaign to defeat ISIS. And Trump has kind of raved about him, quite openly, since then.
COLLINS: He was just talking about him in Miami.
LIEBERMANN: And he's talked about him for five years -- six years. He talked about him back in 2019. And then in nominating him, or picking him today, he said, he was instrumental in the complete annihilation of the ISIS caliphate. So, he has had this, call it, a fascination with Caine for years. And here it is.
COLLINS: I want to play that sound bite, because we do -- we do have that moment, where just this week in Miami, clearly with this on his mind, Trump was talking about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I'm standing on the top, and I look down and there's these handsome people. Everybody is like from a movie set. Good-looking guys.
I get down the stairs, and "What's your name?" "My name is Caine, sir." "What's your first name?" "They call me 'Razin.'" I say, "Wait a minute. Your name is Razin Caine? I love you. I've been looking for you for five years. You are the grea-"
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: "This is what I want."
And there was a general next to him. There was a colonel. There was a drill sergeant, a master sergeant. They were all, like, people -- I could make a movie right now. I'd have the best-looking people ever. And they were great.
And then I went in, and "Sir, would you like to rest before the me-" -- "No, I don't want to rest. I don't want to rest."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What should we expect from him? I mean, this is a Senate- confirmed position.
LEIGHTON: Right. So, one of the things, Kaitlan, to keep in mind is that all three- and four-star positions are Senate-confirmed positions. Actually all officers are Senate-confirmed. But it gets name-specific, when you get to three- and four-stars. And it is unusual, because General Caine, when he retired, was a three-star general, as you mentioned. And in a retired role, you don't expect to be called back to active duty, but it can happen. And there were a few instances of that.
And one of the interesting parts of that is they actually, in the past, at least, when this type of thing happened, with the Chief of Staff of the Army that you mentioned earlier. What they had to do was they had to declare him dead, from a financial and retirement perspective, to then bring him back on the active-duty list. So, that's the kind of paperwork--
COLLINS: Wow.
LEIGHTON: --that actually has to happen for somebody like General Caine to assume not only the four-star position. But now he is, if he becomes Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, as President Trump wants, he's going to be the Principal Military Adviser to the President.
COLLINS: Remarkable moment. We'll continue following it all.
Great to have all of our experts here. "Spider" Marks as well. Thank you all so much.
More on this purge that is underway at the Pentagon.
Up next. We're going to get reaction from President Obama's former National Security Adviser, Susan Rice, next.
Also, President Trump, again, talking about Putin today, as he is dressing down Ukrainian president Zelenskyy. The latest on what he said, and where that deal, they wanted Zelenskyy to sign, stands.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: More on the breaking news that is reverberating across Washington, right now, with an unprecedented purge of senior military leaders at the Pentagon, after President Trump ousted the nation's top general, Joint Chiefs Chairman, Charles "CQ" Brown, along with the Chief of the Navy, and the Vice Chief of the Air Force.
I'm joined tonight by the National Security Adviser under President Obama. Ambassador Susan Rice is here.
Ambassador, just your initial reaction to this long-rumored news, but now confirmed, that the President has ousted the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
AMB. SUSAN RICE, FORMER OBAMA NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, Kaitlan, this is a very dangerous moment. This was an unprecedented action by the President.
[21:20:00] Recall that General CQ Brown was appointed by President Trump to be the Air Force Chief. He's got 40 years of experience. He served in three critical theaters, Europe, the Middle East, Asia. He's highly qualified, and been highly effective.
Admiral Franchetti, the Chief of Naval Operations, a highly, highly qualified general officer, had served as Vice Chief, and ousted for no reason.
There's a pattern here. And Frank -- and Pete Hegseth said the quiet part out loud. These people are being fired simply by virtue of being female or people of color. And it's outrageous. It's dangerous. It's an unprecedented politicization of the military. And it's going to have very, very serious ramifications for the integrity of our republic.
Let me say one other important thing here. There is not a precedent for the President to fire a Chairman, and replace him with somebody who is not only not a sitting current active-duty four-star general, but a retired person and a three-star general. I'm not saying it's illegal, but it is unprecedented.
And when you consider that, we have service chiefs, we have combatant commanders who are four-star generals or flag officers, admirals, and very highly qualified, they have all been passed over in favor of somebody who has somehow managed to curry Donald Trump's favor. This is a very dangerous situation for our military, for civilian control of our military, and for our constitutional republic.
COLLINS: Yes, and on Air Force Lieutenant General Jon -- Dan "Razin" Caine, as he is known. When it comes to him putting him -- Trump picking him to take over and succeed CQ Brown in this role? If someone from the administration heard your answer there, and said, Well, the President has the right to install the people he wants in this position, what would you say to that?
RICE: I'm not arguing that he doesn't have the right.
I'm arguing that it is very bad precedent, and it doesn't enlist the support and the competence of the other chiefs of -- the service chiefs, the other combatant commanders. Imagine how they are thinking about this. They have served their whole careers. They are active duty. Many of them have served decades. They've earned four stars. They've served in combat. And they've been passed over?
It's bad enough, it's outrageous, to fire General CQ Brown, who has served honorably with integrity, and he is a first-class intellect, and a first-class officer. But then to couple that with passing over all the sitting four-stars? There is no more clear message that he is sending to the military that the President of the United States does not respect the senior-most commanders that we have. That is very dangerous.
COLLINS: I was talking to a retired four-star general tonight, just to get their perspective on this. And when you say unprecedented, it's because this is a role that's supposed to be insulated from politics. This person called it tonight, Sadly political and tragic for the nation.
RICE: Yes.
COLLINS: What does it mean now that -- that if politics is playing a role, in determining who is the Joint Chiefs Chairman now?
RICE: Well, Kaitlan, we have always had an extraordinarily apolitical professional military. It's one of our greatest strengths as a democracy. We have civilian control, but we have men and women in our military of all backgrounds, who are super-highly-qualified, and who serve with honor, and serve with integrity, and without politicization.
And now, suddenly, Donald Trump is bringing politics into the process of determining who should be our military leaders. That is dangerous. It's unprecedented. And it does not bode well for our integrity as a democracy. What is it that he expects that General Caine will do that one of the sitting four-stars would not do? That's the question we all need to be asking ourselves.
[21:25:00]
They all take an oath to the Constitution of the United States. Not to any individual president or any individual leader, but to the Constitution. And one has to hope that anybody serving in the role as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs takes that oath very, very seriously, as CQ Brown did, as Lisa Franchetti did. And here we are, in unchartered territory.
COLLINS: Ambassador Susan Rice, thank you for your time tonight.
RICE: Thank you.
COLLINS: My political sources and White House insiders are also here.
And Zolan, what are you hearing from sources, about this tonight? Because, as I said at the top of the show, this isn't a surprise.
ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes.
COLLINS: Maybe it's shocking to people or unprecedented, as Ambassador Rice said there. But it's not a surprise that this is happening.
KANNO-YOUNGS: Particularly when you look at Pete Hegseth's previous comments, right, saying, using words like, woke, and criticizing Brown as well.
But it's not a surprise, in the sense that I don't think you should look at this in isolation. We've seen that President Trump has come in, and not hesitated to try to reshape the entire federal bureaucracy in this administration, with loyalists, with people that will not -- that he sees as being aligned with him politically.
And you look at General Caine. He first impressed Trump in 2018, when he said that the Islamic State could be defeated within a week. And then, last year, our reporting suggests that he also impressed President Trump by putting on a Make America Great Again hat as well. So, there's other -- yes, there's other credentials there, and obviously more background.
But you are seeing a throughline here, of those who are aligned with the President politically are coming in. It's also we should note that, just throughout the government, this is an administration that has conducted loyalty tests for people coming in. See this as a piece of that.
COLLINS: Well and before, I feel like in the first term, when if someone had gone to Trump and said, You can't fire the Joint Chiefs Chairman. That's unprecedented. No one's ever done that. It's not political? He might have listened.
It does also speak to how Trump is viewing his presidency now, that he moved forward with this within a month of taking office.
LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, PBS NEWSHOUR: Yes, I don't -- I'm not sure that there's anyone there that is necessarily telling him, No, don't do this, you can't do this.
I mean, especially since who he nominated, Pete Hegseth, wanted to do this. I mean, explicitly, was saying that, was asked about it, during his Senate confirmation hearings, and kind of side-stepped the question, saying that they would do a review for senior officers, and it would be -- any removals would be based on meritocracy and standards and lethality.
But it doesn't appear like any kind of review was actually conducted with these firings. And that's also what you saw, to Zolan's point, across the board. I mean, institutions that are supposed to be apolitical, which that is what the military is supposed to be, these -- an apolitical force, and the leaders are apolitical. Same with the fired inspectors general. They're not supposed to be partisan. They're incredibly independent, and have always been.
And so, that's what you're seeing, where, instead of allowing these institutions to be independent, apolitical, it appears as though he's trying to put loyalists in there, across the board.
COLLINS: T.W., your thoughts?
T.W. ARRIGHI, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS AIDE TO LINDSEY GRAHAM & MIKE POMPEO: Yes, look, I want to say it's been unprecedented in the last 78 years since the Joint Chiefs were created. It is not uncommon that presidents have -- are critical of their military leadership, and it is well within their rights to change it.
And if you go back throughout our history, there's been tons of talk of removing generals by presidents, but none of them ever went through with it pre -- or many went through with it pre the beginning of the Joint Chiefs becoming a thing.
And I want to thank all of them for their service. And I was glad to see Donald Trump sort of give a hat tip.
But I think, to your point. When it comes to your closest military adviser, and that person who is sort of running the military, sort of, strategy for you, I do think it's important to have somebody that shares your world view, that shares your vision. I think he missed that, or thinks he missed that in the first term.
I understand it. I do not think it's a detriment to those people's service. I think very highly of all of them.
ALENCIA JOHNSON, SENIOR ADVISER, BIDEN 2020 CAMPAIGN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, I mean, I -- it might not be a detriment to their service. But I think there's an alarm that people are feeling with these firings happening for, again, as this panel is talking about, these apolitical positions.
And I'm thinking about what has been happening in response to broadly what Donald Trump has been doing, right?
We've been -- we were going to talk about tonight, a lot of these town halls that are happening, these constituents, these self-identified Republicans and conservatives, who are extremely frustrated with Trump's push to expand the executive power. And I actually don't think this is going to qualm those concerns.
And I do believe that more constituents who have voted for Donald Trump, and Republicans, are going to get even more frustrated with these types of firings, and that's actually going to not bode well for them, in the midterms.
And so, it is interesting to see them continue to barrel down this very extreme way of governing, knowing that the people that put them in office, him in office, do not agree with this.
KANNO-YOUNGS: On that note too, this -- the focus will rightly be on, on the leadership. But as this happens, 5,000 probationary workers, at the Defense Department, were also put on leave today as well.
COLLINS: Yes.
JOHNSON: Exactly.
COLLINS: As Hegseth has instructed them to also make major cuts to the budget. We'll see what this looks like, this reshape of -- reshaping of the Pentagon.
[21:30:00]
Thank you all for being here. It's great to have you.
Up next. As we mentioned, the backlash that's been happening across the country. Here in Washington today, there was a meeting with governors in the White House that went south quickly, at least one moment, as Trump and this Democratic governor were openly sparring with the words, quote, "See you in court."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Are you not going to comply with it?
MILLS: I'm complying with state and federal laws.
TRUMP: Well, I'm -- we are the federal law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: There was remarkable moment in the White House, today, when President Biden (ph) asked Janet Mills, who is the Governor of Maine, if her state was going to follow his executive order, banning transgender athletes from competing in women's sports or risk losing federal funding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Is Maine here? The Governor of Maine? Well--
GOV. JANET MILLS (D-ME): Yes, I'm here.
TRUMP: Are you not going to comply with it?
MILLS: I'm complying with state and federal laws.
TRUMP: Well, I'm -- we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it, because you're not going to get any federal funding at all if you don't. And by the way, your population, even though it's somewhat liberal -- although I did very well there -- your population, it doesn't want men playing in women's sports. So you better--
MILLS: We'll comply with the law, sir.
TRUMP: --you better comply because otherwise you're not getting any, any federal funding.
MILLS: See you in court.
TRUMP: Every state -- good, I'll see you in court. I look forward to that. That should be a real easy one.
MILLS: Should be for me (ph).
TRUMP: And enjoy your life after governor, because I don't think you'll be in elected politics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It was tense, to say the least.
My source tonight, was in that room. Democratic governor, Matt Meyer, of Delaware. Governor, thank you for being here.
GOV. MATT MEYER (D-DE): Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: What was -- I mean, it's crazy, even watching that on camera. What was it like to be there, in-person?
MEYER: Well, it was unexpected, to say the least. It was supposed to be a short speech by the President. I think it went on close to an hour and a half in all. But yes, it was -- it was a strange moment. That's for sure.
COLLINS: Did you talk to Governor Mills after, for her reaction? How did she--
MEYER: Sure, I talked to Governor Mills, a little bit. I think she believes strongly, in what she said, that the law and the Constitution needs to be followed. And we'll see how it goes.
COLLINS: And so what's the issue here, is that Trump signed this executive order, after he took office, which he said was aimed to keep transgender athletes from competing in women's sports. And basically, if a state doesn't follow the executive order, they're going to instruct the Department of Education, through Title IX to withhold federal funding.
And after that happened, the Department of Education Civil Rights Division announced it's launching a Title IX investigation into Maine's DOE.
MEYER: Yes. Listen, I'm the Governor of Delaware. It's my 32nd day as governor. 15 years ago, I was a U.S. diplomat in Iraq. Was the sixth and seventh grade math teacher, that's why I got into this business.
Our schools are struggling across this country. We're not getting the educational outcomes we -- that our kids and our families deserve. I think when I went to the White House today, I was hoping I'd hear more about that. I was hoping I'd hear more about how to bring down the cost of eggs. The cost of housing across our country and in Delaware is too darn high. The accessibility and availability of health care, the cost of health care is too high.
I think those are the things, as a country, Democrat, Republican, urban, suburban, rural, federal government, state, and local government, those are the things I want us to be focused on. And so, I was a little disappointedly -- I know there's a lot of attention on that interaction with Governor Mills.
More than anything, I think we, as a nation, need to decide what we want to be. And this is a tremendous opportunity for us to come together, very different opinions, on how to achieve the outcomes we need. And that's where we need to really be focused on.
COLLINS: How is your state handling this executive order? Because Maine feels it conflicts with their own state laws. They have a Human Rights Act that prevents discrimination. How does -- how does a state deal with this? Do you view an executive order from the President as the law?
MEYER: I'm a big sports fan. I am not a big fan of the designated hitter in baseball. I don't tell little leagues whether to have their designated hitter or not. If it was up to me, I'd say no designated hitter. But I think leagues, schools should make their own choice. I think it's true of this issue. Let leagues and local -- you know, local community groups decide what they want to do.
I didn't like it as a school teacher, when they mandate all this stuff about this and that. I think we need to, as governors across our country, often in this day and age, especially we're the last line of defense, we need to govern with compassion. We need to protect the most vulnerable. But we also have to give some modicum of local control, certainly on these difficult issues.
So, I don't -- the President's mandating this and that, and we'll see what we can do. I mean--
COLLINS: You believe it shouldn't be handled essentially at a federal level?
MEYER: Yes, I think why -- I mean, there're very different opinions about this, across the country. And we're talking about, I don't know, the less than 0.2 percent of the population of our country. And we're spending all our time talking about this, when our schools are really struggling, when we're really struggling, as a society, to adjust to a 21st Century global economy.
COLLINS: This was your first interaction with President Trump today, I believe, right, at the White House?
MEYER: Right, yes.
COLLINS: Did you talk to him? What was that like?
MEYER: I didn't--
COLLINS: Between--
MEYER: I didn't talk to him directly. We had opportunities to speak to some of his senior leadership. And some of those conversations, quite frankly, were productive. Had great interaction with Secretary Collins -- Doug Collins of Veterans--
COLLINS: The VA.
MEYER: --VA. He assured us, Democrats and Republicans, that there would be no cuts to Veterans Services anywhere across the country.
[21:40:00]
If we heard anything to the contrary, he actually gave me his cellphone number. I'm tempted to give it out here. Out of -- you know, to maintain my relationship with Secretary Collins, I probably won't do that. But it showed how sincere he was. And I appreciate that collaboration. COLLINS: But how do you, as a Governor, feel about working with the White House, overall? I mean, given that, that's a positive note.
MEYER: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, the last President spent a lot of time in your state.
MEYER: Right.
COLLINS: How do you feel when it comes to being able to call up this administration to talk to them?
MEYER: The last president is also a Delawarean, who warned me that if I didn't do my job right, he's running against me in four years. So, I keep that in mind as well.
No, but honestly, jokes aside, we are -- we have a unique -- Democrat, Republican governors across the country. It's National Governors Association this weekend. We were at the White House today with the National Governors Association. We need to deliver for our people.
When you talk to the leaders of nearly every state, we're eager to work with the White House. We are often the first line, the last line, of defense, in protecting vulnerable populations. In Delaware, we're taking a leading role in making sure we do that.
But every opportunity we have, to bring down costs for Delawareans, to bring down costs for Americans, to provide educational opportunity -- the outcomes Delawareans are getting in their schools are not acceptable in public schools. It's a complex problem, a hard problem to solve.
There are teachers across our country, who are struggling with that problem. They need support. They need smart investment. And I'm hopeful that we'll be able to partner with the White House, and maybe even a department -- federal Department of Education, maybe not, to deliver on those outcomes.
COLLINS: Yes. Trump says he wants to shut it down. We'll see if he's successful.
Governor, it's great to have you. Thank you for coming in, Matt Meyer.
MEYER: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. There's a new ruling that's in tonight from the Supreme Court. It's a setback for President Trump in his effort to fire a key agency leader, who is going to stay on the job for now. We'll tell you more, ahead.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we are getting the first word from the Supreme Court, in the many legal fights that have been building over President Trump's second term, and second-term agenda. This is the first setback, at least temporarily, when it comes to the President's efforts to fire whomever he wants, whenever he wants, from the federal government.
The justices ruled here that the head of that watchdog agency that protects government whistleblowers can stay in his job, for now, despite the President already giving Hampton Dellinger, who you see there, the pink slip.
I want to bring in two of our top legal sources that are joining me tonight on set.
CNN Legal Analyst, Elliot Williams.
And Tom Dupree, a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General.
This is an unsigned order that basically is pausing this case until till next week. So Hampton Dellinger will stay on the job--
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes.
COLLINS: --but until next Wednesday is my -- what I read.
But we were seeing essentially the justices not totally answer the questions that we have here of what this looks like.
WILLIAMS: Right. And a lot of this, if you notice, a number of the cases that are coming up, right now, are at the preliminary injunction or temporary restraining order stage, to pause things that are moving very, very quickly.
It's because of the pace at which the Trump administration has moved, a lot of these lawsuits are just to ask them to pause things. So either, the people can file lawsuits or courts can act. I think that's what's happening here. The justices need to take a closer look at it. But right now, they're just saying, Hold on.
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, and that is true. Look, I mean, the fact is, is that Trump moves at light speed, and courts typically move at a glacial pace.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
DUPREE: And this is their way of saying, Look, let's pump the brakes on this. They will address this in due time. But that means months, maybe years, before they finally get to it.
But this issue, Trump's power to fire people at will, huge constitutional issue. It's one the Supreme Court has been mulling and circling around for many, many years. My suspicion is they probably are going to rule, generally, in favor of Trump, and give him pretty wide power, when they ultimately rule on it, which, again, could be months away or years away.
WILLIAMS: Yes. COLLINS: And so, what does this look like for -- for -- I mean, there are multiple individuals who are filing these suits. But for Hampton Dellinger, who's told he can stay on the job till next Wednesday. I mean, if you're in that position, what do you -- how are you handling your job here?
WILLIAMS: Keep your office (inaudible) decorated because you don't quite know when you're going to have to take off the walls.
But no, I mean, I think you operate as if you're going to stay in the job. I wouldn't be shocked if prior to Wednesday they issue -- somebody issues another order, extending it even further. It would be odd to have him stay until Wednesday, then kick him out, despite the fact that the -- sort of the legal background behind his job hasn't even been resolved yet.
DUPREE: I still have all my personal stuff packed in a gym bag, ready to go.
COLLINS: Interesting phase. You never know.
DUPREE: Because that order could come at any time.
COLLINS: You never know.
DUPREE: Any time.
COLLINS: Smart tactic.
Separately, at another legal front today. What we were waiting for last night was, what is the judge in New York going to decide about Eric Adams. And what Judge Ho came down with today was essentially vacating the case, but not totally killing it. I mean, what does this mean, and what does it say about what the judge heard from the Justice Department?
WILLIAMS: Right. Vacating the case makes total sense, because as a practical matter, who's going to prosecute this case if -- and you know, just to back up a little bit. The Justice Department wanted to not -- had said that they wanted to pause the case. The judge had the ability to pause it, and step in, and allow that.
What -- the Justice Department would be the only entity that could prosecute Eric Adams. So, if they're not going to, who is? So, in practice, this trial is not going to happen.
Now, why he brought in a third-party to make a decision--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Can we talk about this? OK, so this is--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
DUPREE: Yes. COLLINS: --this is President George W. Bush's Solicitor General. His name is Paul Clement. And he is going to be arguing the case against the DOJ?
DUPREE: Yes. So, this is actually something that happens rarely, but it does happen.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
DUPREE: The United States Supreme Court. If you have a situation where, for whatever reason, the government wins in the lower courts but no longer wants to defend its victory? The Supreme Court will appoint a third-party, an amicus, a friend of the court--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
DUPREE: --to come in and defend that position. That's what Judge Ho did here. He chose Paul Clement, which, from my perspective, I think, is great. Paul Clement, as you note, he was George Bush's Solicitor General. I think he will infuse Judge Ho's decision with some conservative wisdom.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
DUPREE: He will say, Here is how you handle the situation. And the judge expressly was looking for guidance. He sent out like a law school exam with five questions.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
[21:50:00]
DUPREE: Saying to Paul, Please give me the answers, tell me what to do here.
WILLIAMS: And it's not just infusing conservative thought. It's also what, the judge reads the same newspapers, you and I -- we all do, and the judge knows that there's a -- there's political eyes on this too. Having a stalwart conservative--
DUPREE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: --be the one to weigh in is just good for the judge--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: But if you're Eric--
DUPREE: A reason for cover (ph).
COLLINS: If you're Eric Adams, what does this -- what does this period look like while they wait for this to happen?
DUPREE: Well, it's like Hampton Dellinger.
COLLINS: You stay on the job? DUPREE: There's uncertainty.
DUPREE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
DUPREE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Get his duffel bag (ph).
COLLINS: I don't know if Hampton Dellinger wants that comparison necessarily.
DUPREE: Yes, yes. Look, I think at the end of the day, Judge Ho is going to realize that his hands are somewhat tied. He has limited options at this point. To Elliot's point, he can't force the Justice Department to undergo a prosecution that they don't want to do. So, he has limited options. But he's going to hear what he can do.
COLLINS: Tom Dupree. Elliot Williams. Keep your gym bags packed, I guess, is the lesson of this. Thank you so much.
Up next. We heard from President Trump, tonight, on Ukraine, as top officials say they are closing in on potentially having a deal. Trump, meanwhile, says he's sick of hearing about Zelenskyy's actions. We'll tell you more, ahead.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In a week where President Trump accused Ukraine of starting a war with Russia? Which they did not start. Attempted to pressure President Zelenskyy into signing away nearly half of his country's rare earth minerals? Which may happen soon, but that deal has not happened yet. And also labeled him a dictator? Which Zelenskyy is not.
Today, the President argued it's important for Zelenskyy to be at the -- that it's not important for Zelenskyy to be at these meetings, where his country's fate could be decided.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So I've been watching for years, and I've been watching him negotiate with no cards. He has no cards. And you get sick of it. You just get sick of it, and I've had it.
So I don't think he's very important to be at meetings, to be honest with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In that same interview, this is how Trump talked about President Putin. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He wants to make a deal.
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: But here's the thing. They have taken--
TRUMP: And he doesn't have to make a deal.
KILMEADE: Right. They--
TRUMP: Because if he wanted, he'd get the whole country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My next source was CNN's Moscow Bureau Chief for nearly a decade. Jill Dougherty is here.
And it's great to have you here.
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Hey, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: That comment there at the end, he said he could have had all of Ukraine if he wanted to.
Arguably, not true, because that was Putin's goal when he invaded, and he did not succeed in taking Kyiv.
DOUGHERTY: Precisely. And he still hasn't.
However, right now, we're involved in this, really, I think, unbelievably personal spat. And I'm not quite sure where it's coming from. But when he -- when President Trump, said, I'm sick of this? That, to me, indicates something more than policy. It has to be personal, because nobody would talk that way unless maybe you had some objective. But why? Why?
COLLINS: You don't think it's some grand strategy that we've heard from some people, that he's just trying to set the bargaining table and make sure Putin's there? You don't read into that when you hear him talk--
DOUGHERTY: I think it goes beyond that.
COLLINS: --how Zelenskyy's doing (ph)?
DOUGHERTY: I really do. I think it's personal.
And you can see the -- I mean, if it isn't? If this is strategy? It's not a very good strategy, because Putin is sitting over here watching this, with all the praise coming from Trump, and not having to do much of anything.
I mean, Putin, at this point, has not had any demands on him, and he's not offering anything, except for what he offered at the beginning, right before the invasion, which was demands. No NATO territory, denazification, which means get rid of Zelenskyy. So--
COLLINS: Even though he's Jewish.
DOUGHERTY: You're right.
COLLINS: Well, it's interesting to hear Trump say -- Trump told me, in the Oval Office, last week, when I asked him, Will Zelenskyy have a seat at the table? And he said, Of course he will, he will be part of these negotiations.
There, he's saying, I don't really think it's important for him to be at this table.
We've heard from advisers talking about, Zelenskyy needs to show up. But they're showing up to different tables. I mean, Zelenskyy is not invited. Senior Ukrainian officials weren't invited to the meeting in Saudi Arabia. Now, we heard arguments for why that is.
But what does this look like for Ukraine in the end, if they are not part of the negotiations?
DOUGHERTY: Oh, I think it's a disaster, really. They will be dictated to. And if it's existential, then Zelenskyy will have to do a deal. But basically, it will be dictating what Russia and the United States come up with. And even in that, I think we have to look at this in kind of a different way.
Putin is fixated on Ukraine, right? And he always has been. But he is, I think, more fixated on Russia and the United States. Putin wants to get back in the game. He wants to be at the table. He wants to be a decider. And so, getting that relationship, even the fact that he's talking with President Trump, that is a big deal. That's what he wants, and that's his ultimate aim. So, you know--
COLLINS: Especially for one -- a leader who has been so isolated, as Putin has.
DOUGHERTY: Precisely.
COLLINS: By the West.
[22:00:00]
DOUGHERTY: Yes. Yes. And now he's not isolated. President Trump is talking about, Let's get him back in the G7, you know? So, he's back on the stage.
And again, I think the worst thing is that President Trump is pushing Zelenskyy without pushing President Putin.
COLLINS: Yes.
DOUGHERTY: And you would think that he'd kind of put pressure on both. We said -- he may still. He may still do something. But I don't see it yet.
COLLINS: Jill Dougherty, always great to have your expertise. Thank you for joining us here on set.
DOUGHERTY: Sure.
COLLINS: Thank you all so much for joining us on a very busy hour.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
