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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump Backs Musk, As His Administration Backs Off Musk's Demand To Federal Workers To Justify Jobs; Macron Corrects Trump On Assistance To Ukraine; Trump Picks Podcaster, Ex-Secret Service Agent & Loyalist Dan Bongino For FBI Deputy Director. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired February 24, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: He was the Secret Service agent, who risked his life in Dallas, almost 62 years ago, jumping onto the limousine, carrying President John F. Kennedy, and first lady Jacqueline Kennedy.

Hill never forgave himself for being unable to save the President. He talked to "60 Minutes'" Mike Wallace in 1975.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINT HILL, SECRET SERVICE AGENT WHO JUMPED ONTO LIMO AFTER JFK WAS SHOT: It's my fault.

MIKE WALLACE, AMERICAN JOURNALIST AND GAME SHOW HOST: Oh, no one has ever suggested that for an instant.

HILL: I--

WALLACE: What you did was show great bravery and great presence of mind. What was on the citation that was given you for your work on November 22nd, 1963?

HILL: I don't care about that, Mike.

WALLACE: Extraordinary courage and heroic effort in the face of maximum danger.

HILL: Mike, I don't care about that. If I had reacted just a little bit quicker -- and I could have, I guess. And I'll live with that to my grave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.

Elon Musk says federal workers will now get a second email to justify their jobs, and failures to respond a second time will result in termination. The ultimatum that led to chaos across the government.

And more Republicans are now getting an earful from their constituents, worried about how DOGE might affect them. One of those lawmakers, who faced part of that backlash, will join me live to talk about it.

And tonight, one of the nation's most well-known conspiracy theorist, who has never worked at the FBI, but has spread false information about it, was just selected to be the second-in-command. A former Deputy Director of the FBI is here to weigh in, on two people, who have never worked there, now running it.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Good evening from Washington, where whiplash seems to be the word of the day, especially when it comes to federal workers.

First, they got a midnight deadline to essentially justify their jobs via email, or lose them if they didn't reply.

Then, after days of confusion, even among some cabinet secretaries, suddenly replying became voluntary, and their jobs were also no longer at stake.

But tonight, we are hearing from Elon Musk, who says it is back, and that another email could soon be on the way to them.

Now, this all started when he first issued an ultimatum over the weekend. It came via the Office of Personnel Management, in an email, titled, What did you do last week? It contained an order to list at least five accomplishments, as you can see here, and federal workers were given a deadline of 11:59 p.m. Eastern, tonight, to respond.

What followed was disbelief, a lot of confusion, some frustration, not just from these employees who got the email. Even their bosses seemed unsure about what they should do. Multiple federal agencies, including the Pentagon, the FBI, the State Department, told their employees just to ignore the ultimatum, that they didn't have to respond.

Then today, around 1 o'clock, this afternoon, we learned where President Trump stood on all of this. 100 percent behind Elon Musk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I thought it was great, because we have people that don't show up to work, and nobody even knows if they work for the government.

So by asking the question, Tell us what you did this week, what he's doing is saying, Are you actually working? And then if you don't answer, like you're sort of semi-fired, or you're fired, because a lot of people are not answering, because they don't even exist.

I think it was actually, there was a lot of genius in sending it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The President praising it, as he also downplayed any notion this idea of a disconnect between what Musk was telling federal employees to do, and what they were hearing from agency heads.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: No, no, no. That was done in a friendly manner. Only things such as perhaps, Marco at State Department, where they have very confidential things, or the FBI where they're working on confidential things. And they don't mean that in any way combatively with Elon. They're just saying there are some people that you don't want to really have them tell you what they're working on last week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That's what we heard from the President today, around launch, inside the Oval Office.

It was around then, early this afternoon when we also heard from Trump's own government that clarified that email was all -- was optional, potentially because of the national security concerns that you heard the President cite there that got in the way.

Look at what the Department of Health and Human Services warned to its employees, saying, if they did respond, again, given this was voluntary, that they should, quote, "Assume that what you write will be read by malign foreign actors and tailor your response accordingly."

Then tonight, we heard from Musk on social media, who said this. Subject to the discretion of the President, they will be given another chance. Failure to respond a second time will result in termination.

[21:05:00]

Now, all of this has begged the question about who is exactly in charge here, who federal employees should be listening to when it comes to Trump. Elon Musk? Cabinet secretaries?

That seemed to be the same question that a federal judge had today, when they were grilling a Justice Department attorney who couldn't say who the, quote, Administrator of DOGE is.

The judge here was asking, quote, Where is Mr. Musk in all of this? At this point, you can't tell me what role he has. A DOJ attorney who was in that courtroom responded, and said, He is an adviser to the president.

She asked, Is there an administrator of USDS at the present time. That is the agency that they turned into what is now known as DOGE. The attorney responded, quote, I don't know the answer.

The judge then encouraged the rest of the lawyers, at the counsels' table, to speak up if they knew. None said they did.

My lead source tonight is veteran journalist, and historian, Garrett Graff.

And Garrett, it's great to have you. Because I just think if you are this federal worker, and you're hearing what the President said in the Oval, you're seeing what Elon Musk is saying tonight on Twitter, and this email telling you that this is voluntary. The question is, what you do, going from there?

GARRETT GRAFF, JOURNALIST & HISTORIAN, AUTHOR, "WATERGATE: A NEW HISTORY": Yes. And I think one of the things that's been interesting is it's taken the federal agencies, a while, to clarify that this email is, in fact, voluntary.

But one of the things remember, when Elon Musk sort of first emailed the entire federal workforce, a couple of weeks ago, it forced OPM to put out a privacy impact statement that made clear that all emails from Elon Musk, to the federal workforce, are voluntary, and that there is no adverse action that will be taken for people who do not comply with them or do not respond to them.

And what I think you really saw a lot over the last 48, 72 hours, as this particular controversy has played out, is this divide between Elon Musk and the national security establishment.

That it is clear that you have the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, the Justice Department, the Pentagon, all saying, No, no, no, we're the people who manage our own workforces. You don't get to decide who works for us, and who actually is doing jobs that we want done.

And to me, that's going to be a very interesting, I think, sort of potential fracture in this weird power-sharing agreement that Trump and Musk and the various cabinet departments have appeared to settle into, over the last couple of weeks.

COLLINS: Yes, that was the question given, you know, we have not seen Cabinet Secretaries come out and openly, say, You don't actually have to do this. And this isn't, you know -- these are all people like Pam Bondi, Kash Patel, I mean real Trump loyalists that are saying, that this caused a lot of confusion for them, about whether or not to respond.

And on that HHS email, when they said that anything that they -- that they could send of Hey, here's what I did this week, that it could be read by a malign foreign actor. What do you think is the biggest risk here, in terms of emailing out that information, if you're answering the email genuinely and earnestly?

GRAFF: I think that there are a couple of different sort of sets of concerns here.

One is what people might actually say in the email. The original email from DOGE, from OPM said, Don't send any classified information in here. But there's a lot of activity that someone who is reading these emails, could actually discern, to be classified and sensitive, even if it's not technically classified.

Secondly, though you have just who is replying to this. Are there people who were receiving this email, or are replying to it, who are in jobs in one part of the government, but are saying that they are doing a different type of job, different type of work. I mean, are these people in sort of undercover positions, elsewhere, in government? So that's a sensitive set of concerns.

And then I think the third, and just the strangest bit of all of this, is this technical disconnect, where Elon Musk has set up authority for himself to email the entire federal workforce, apparently without coordination with the cabinet departments, and without having, seemingly to have to authorize those communications to the federal workforce with anyone in advance.

[21:10:00]

I mean, that alone is sort of a stunning set of phishing concerns from a cybersecurity standpoint. I mean, if employees just sort of start getting these emails from hr@opm.gov, if it says, Click on this link or you will be fired by midnight? That's like the most basic set of phishing cybersecurity pests that any company in the world is trying to erase.

COLLINS: Yes, it's a great point there. Garrett Graff, great to have you. Thank you so much for that.

Also joining me tonight are my political sources.

We have Democratic strategist, Ameshia Cross.

National Review Editor, Ramesh Ponnuru.

And a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.

All here with us.

Ramesh, what do you make of the fact that this has kind of gone back and forth. I thought it was really notable in the Oval, when Trump stood by Elon Musk. Elon Musk seemed to also think that, because he tweeted out that comment, and shared it pretty quickly after it was made.

But now, Musk is saying tonight that a second email could be on the way at Trump's discretion.

RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, it's just pretty simple. These -- responding to these emails is voluntary, but it's also mandatory. And if you don't do it, you might just get semi-fired, and you may or may not exist. I don't -- I don't know why people--

COLLINS: But what is semi-fired?

PONNURU: --are so confused?

COLLINS: That was quite confusing.

PONNURU: I mean, semi-fired. And we've all been semi-fired from time to time. Look, this administration talks much more than most administrations about a unitary executive. The executive has one will, speaks with one voice, but it acts like it's completely disorganized mess. And we're seeing that inaction. We saw it in the first administration. Up until recently, we hadn't seen that level of disorganization from this administration. But now, we're beginning to see it.

COLLINS: Yes, and we've heard a lot of people say, Give DOGE a chance. The federal government is bloated. It is way too large. Let them try to make this work.

But I think the criticism that some people were noting was, it supposed to make government more efficient. The chaos from this, and how this, was leaving Cabinet Secretaries even in the lurch, was not efficiency. It was inefficiency.

AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Oh, absolutely. And I think it was inefficient. It was confusing. It is taking a sledgehammer. It is not really paying attention to how government actually works.

And the problem with somebody being in charge of government efficiency, who has never actually worked in government, who has never been in any of these agencies, who has never held an elected office, is that the basic functions of what it takes to get anything done, he is going around. And he's not -- and he's going around it, but also not being informed by the people who do this work every day.

So, I think that it's a very stark contrast when we hear from department or agency heads who are speaking out, because that is even in stark contrast to what's happening in Congress. Because Congress thus far, has not said anything extremely substantial, when it comes to leveraging any level of pushback.

And I think that it can be said that across multiple sides of the political spectrum, people want to see government more efficient. They want to get rid of certain levels of red tape. They want the bureaucracy to work.

However, we've seen certain changes before. The Clinton administration did this, but they did it in the right way. They went through Congress. They did not shake everything up, see what breaks, and then try to figure it out, years later and down the line.

What we're seeing, right now, is that DOGE doesn't really have a plan. The plan is to get rid of as many federal workers as possible, without any real understanding of the systems that are going to be affected, and honestly, no real concern.

COLLINS: Well, and that's why the judge grilling the DOJ lawyer today, about what is his title, or who actually is in charge, that could actually have a huge impact on the lawsuits that a lot of these fired federal workers are bringing in court.

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: It absolutely could. I mean, it's remarkable to me that you see the federal judges basically going down the line, asking each Justice Department lawyer, Do you know who is in charge? Do you know who is -- if anyone knows, speak up.

I also can't get over the fact that you have Kash Patel, who is not exactly known for being a defender of the bureaucracy, basically said, Hey, pump the brakes here a bit, Elon. We can't just fire all the FBI lawyers for not completing the five-step list.

I think what we're seeing here is, look, Elon Musk obviously has vast experience in the private sector. And tech companies, often, I am sure, send out emails to people, saying, Look, we need to slim down. Justify your job, why do you have it.

But it doesn't quite map on perfectly to the federal government, which is the most sprawling bureaucracy you can imagine. There are laws in place that prevent you from summarily terminating federal employees.

So, I think this is just the first of what, in all likelihood, is going to be a long line of skirmishes and battles, over Musk and Trump trying to downsize the federal workforce, and just getting a huge amount of pushback from the bureaucracy itself.

PONNURU: And just to underline the point. Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, put out a statement saying that everybody in the administration is working as one unified team under the direction of the President.

There is only one circumstance in which a White House press secretary puts out that statement, and that is when it is manifestly untrue.

COLLINS: Well, and with Elon Musk himself, we saw this -- someone hacked into the videos, at HUD today, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and they had this AI-generated video of Trump -- we have a picture of it, I believe -- Trump kissing Elon Musk's feet. Obviously it's not real. But the message across it says, Long Live The Real King.

And The New York Times reported tonight that leaders of the department could not immediately identify how they had been hacked to display those images. They ended up just unplugging several devices to basically turn it off.

CROSS: Yes, this is going to be a messy divorce, whenever it occurs, between Elon and Trump.

[21:15:00]

But at the end of the day, people are seeing that when you break things, this administration isn't trying to fix them. They're breaking things really quickly. And Trump is saying one thing, to Republican leaders in Congress, and saying something entirely differently on Truth Social, and to Elon Musk.

Because, they recognize midterms are right around the corner. And at the end of the day, these town halls that district members are showing up to every single day, at this point, they're raising the ire.

We're seeing that Trump's approval rating is going down. It doesn't matter what Elon Musk approval rating is. He's not an elected official. However, it does matter how individuals on the ground view this administration. And in plus-17, plus-18 Republican districts, people are getting really angry, really fast.

COLLINS: Yes, well, I'm glad you brought that up, because we're going to talk about that coming up.

Everybody, thank you so much.

The subject of Musk and federal firings was front and center at a town hall, as we just talked about. Some Republican lawmakers, including my next source, went on defense, and answered the questions, this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARK ALFORD (R-MO): Elon Musk does have a security clearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he doesn't--

AUDIENCE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:20:00]

COLLINS: As President Trump and Elon Musk work to slash the federal government, and some Republicans are weighing cuts, to programs like Medicaid in their budget bill. Lawmakers returned home in recent days, for the first recess since Trump took office.

And a coffee shop, in Missouri today, became the latest spot where voters voiced their concerns about all of that to their elected representative, face-to-face.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALFORD: Her question was, will I support not cutting Medicaid?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medicare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Medicare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want--

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: No, she said Medicaid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neither. Neither.

ALFORD: Government is not immune to layoffs.

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: Elon Musk does have a security clearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he doesn't--

AUDIENCE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight is the congressman you saw there, at his meeting with constituents this morning. Republican Mark Alford.

And first off, I hope you had a cup of coffee before that started this morning.

ALFORD: I did. We had to cut people off. I think they had too much caffeine.

COLLINS: You normally do these meetings, and you say you have like five to 10 people show up.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: This was a 150 people, I believe. Were you surprised by the level of frustration that you heard?

ALFORD: I would like to say that I was.

And first, thank you for having me on, Kaitlan.

Look, we've done 90 of these, since I've been in office. I'm a sophomore. I've been in office for two years and a couple of months now. And I love going out and talking to folks in our district. I love having one-on-one conversations. That's how we get things done.

I welcome people who don't agree with me, so that I can try to win them over, hear their concerns. I represent 772,047 individuals, Republicans, Democrats, independents, politically-agnostic. I want to hear their ideas. And that's what we do, usually, at Mondays with Mark. Before I fly back to Washington, we have discussions.

This was brought about outside agitators, and some people from outside our district, not our constituents, who came there to make their voices heard. And I respect that. They have every right to be there. We did not prohibit them, even though they did not live in our district.

But I really wanted to hear from our constituents. That's who sent me to Congress. And that's who I owe, really, my service to. And they were not really able to be heard.

Some of them were there, who had worked for the IRS, and were getting laid off in Kansas City. And I really wanted to hear their concerns, and let's work together about how can we find you the next job? There are thousands of jobs, a 150,000 -- a 175,000 jobs, right now, available in Missouri. COLLINS: You say, outside agitators. Are you saying that none of them were your constituents that were there?

ALFORD: No, no, no, no, I -- some were. I went -- and let me make that very clear. Some were our constituents. They clearly were not on -- aligned with my way of thinking, and they did not vote for Trump.

COLLINS: Well from those constituents--

ALFORD: But that's OK. I don't -- I wanted to hear from them.

COLLINS: Yes, as you said you--

ALFORD: And hear their concerns.

COLLINS: You represent Democrats as well.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: And you are the elected official.

And some of the concerns we've heard are about Elon Musk and the DOGE effort on slashing those jobs at the IRS or other agencies.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: I know you've got a lot of federal workers in your state.

What do you say to them about how it's being executed? We just talked about the email they got over the weekend.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: Do you think maybe there should be more compassion in how it's being handled?

ALFORD: Look, I think I'm a -- came from the communication industry. I was a television anchor, in Kansas City, for many years. And so, I am big on communicating. I think that's important, whether it's in your marriage, or your business.

I met a guy at the airport today, who works for the FDIC, and he was flying up to New York City. He was quite upset, he was going to have to lay people off. And we talked to -- he was very angry. I mean, I said, Let's just talk about this. What can we do better?

He says, We've got -- you guys got to communicate better, because it's chaos.

And what I told him, Kaitlan is, I said, Look, this is a ship that's headed towards a reef. And if we hit this reef, because of our $36 trillion in debt, if we do not turn that ship away from the reef, we are all going to be sunk. And when a ship is headed towards a reef, there is chaos on the deck. I am glad that we have Donald J. Trump behind the helm that is steering that boat, along with Elon Musk.

But yes, there's chaos. But we, conservatives and members of Congress, must do the best we can--

COLLINS: But you think--

ALFORD: --with the information we have.

COLLINS: You think it could be communicated better?

ALFORD: Look, I am always about information, as you are, being in the communications business. As soon as I get information from the White House, or from any sector in the agencies, we will relay that to.

I am implementing a new program on our -- I told our communications director. We're going to start trying to put out daily bulletins on our website with the latest information that we have.

[21:25:00]

COLLINS: But secondly, sometimes that information changes, like with the email over the weekend--

ALFORD: Yes, it does.

COLLINS: --where now they were told, they didn't have to reply. They did.

But in terms of how this is happening. And I don't think anyone would argue or would disagree that the federal government is too big and bloated. But in terms of how you slim it down, don't you feel that you, as a member of Congress, should have a say in that? Because what they're slashing, and what they're cutting, is money that you already appropriated.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: It's already -- it's not -- you know, they talk about fraud. None of it's fraud. Maybe you don't like how it's being spent. But they say it's fraudulent. But it was appropriated by your body.

ALFORD: Right. And I'm newest member on the Appropriations Committee. I'm going to take that very seriously. I am on a subcommittee that oversees USAID, before I think it's going to be moved to the State Department.

We've got to make sure that programs like that have to do with national security, moving forward. I want to rename them National Security Investment projects, to where we're making sure that our taxpayer dollars are put into programs, specifically for our national defense.

But yes, I want to make sure that we're doing our job. But I am not the Chief Executive. The Chief Executive of the United States of America is Donald J. Trump, and he has the authority to appoint whomever he wants to help get this done. He has appointed Elon Musk, and those working under him, to right this ship.

COLLINS: Of course. But it is money that Congress has appropriated. I think that's the question, and if Congress will pass another CR. We're talking about spending right now.

The other question you got was about Medicaid.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: At the town hall, this morning, the coffee.

When it comes to Medicaid, some of your colleagues are considering cutting Medicaid, in order to pass your budget blueprint, to get the tax cuts done again, and to get Trump's other legislative priorities.

Would you vote for a bill that includes cuts to Medicaid?

ALFORD: I will vote for a bill, tomorrow, that has savings for Medicaid. And I'll tell you the difference. This is just not a nuanced position.

There is waste, abuse, and fraud, in Medicaid. We are finding out, through DOGE, and through the access to this data, that there is waste, abuse, and fraud, in just about every government program. We knew that. I don't think we wanted to admit that it was this bad. But in the Medicaid system, we've got to make sure that that's eliminated.

And then we also have to make sure that able-bodied adults with no dependent children are not on Medicaid. And right now, the system says that there are. I think the savings are to be found there. But we can--

COLLINS: So, you do want changes to Medicaid, and you will vote for that?

ALFORD: I want changes. But I'm not going to throw granny off the cliff, and people who really need Medicaid, and depend upon that for their health--

COLLINS: But can you--

ALFORD: --and survivability.

COLLINS: You've been in Congress for two years. If there is fraud in Medicaid, why have we not heard anything from House Republicans about that, for the last two years?

ALFORD: Look, I'm not on Energy and Commerce, which -- or Ways and Means.

COLLINS: Which is tasked with coming up with $880 billion--

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: --in cuts, as you know.

ALFORD: And I--

COLLINS: Which a lot of people are worried that's more than just the reforms that you're talking about-- (CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: Kaitlan, I'm not making excuses. We need to do a better job. And I think every chair is charged now. This is serious business we're talking about. And that's why I went in and faced the people who don't want me in office, and some who wanted, I think, to do me harm. That's why we had a SWAT team and many police there. And I can take that.

But I take this serious, because this is the survival of our nation. And I don't think people understand what a severe point we are. We are gaining over a trillion dollars in interest, every year. That's more than we spend on our national defense. 75 percent of our spending in America is spent on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

COLLINS: But I think some people may say, they have real concerns that Republicans are going to cut Medicaid, and that there are going to be people who lose their benefits, not just the people that you're talking about there, or -- you said that there is waste and abuse in it.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: We haven't seen any examples of fraud produced on Medicaid itself.

But how do you tell people that when you vote for that tomorrow, and vote yes, that it won't mean they have real cuts in Medicaid?

ALFORD: So, Kaitlan, tomorrow, what we'll be voting on, and I hope it gets on the floor, I will be voting yes, is simply a -- it gets us on the dance floor, this budget resolution. Nothing is going to be in fine print. That happens in the reconciliation process.

So, the House votes on our budget, the Senate on theirs, and then, just like "Schoolhouse Rock," we come together in a conference, and reconcile like you would reconcile your checkbook. And in that, we are going to have the details of exactly how that plays out. And there may be some people, at that point, who don't like what is in that reconciliation package. But we got to get on the dance floor.

COLLINS: Once we have a better look at that, we'll have you back, Congressman.

ALFORD: Please do.

COLLINS: Thank you.

ALFORD: Thank you.

COLLINS: Thank you for your time tonight. And good luck with that reconciliation process.

ALFORD: Thank you.

COLLINS: It may not be very peaceful. Up next. Two world leaders, two very different messages that we heard today. It's the third anniversary of Russia invading Ukraine. There was a remarkable moment, in the Oval Office, when the French president jumped in to correct President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.

EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE: No, in fact, to be -- to be frank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: On this, the third anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we watched in New York, this morning, as the United States, at the United Nations, stood firmly on the same side as the Kremlin, against a resolution calling out Moscow's aggression and demanding an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops.

At the same time, in Washington, in the East Room at the White House, we watched as a delicate new reality of American relations with European allies was on full display, as President Trump welcomed French president, Emmanuel Macron, and the attempts to be friendly were juxtaposed by an extraordinary moment, in the Oval Office, when the French president fact-checked the U.S. president, in real-time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Just so you understand, Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.

[21:35:00]

MACRON: No, in fact, to be -- to be frank, we paid. We paid 60 percent of the total default. And it was--

TRUMP: Oh (ph).

MACRON: --like the U.S., loans guarantee, grants, and we provided real money, to be clear.

TRUMP: Yes (ph).

MACRON: We have 230 billion frozen assets in Europe -- Russian assets. But this is not as a collateral of a loan because this is not our belonging. So, they are frozen. If at the end of the day in the negotiation we will have with Russia, they're ready to give -- to give it to us? Super. It will be loan at the end of the day, and Russia would have paid for that. This is my wish.

TRUMP: If you believe that, it's OK with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President--

TRUMP: They get their money back. We don't. And now we do. But, you know, that's only fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My next source has represented the U.S. at the United Nations, and also been in the room with Trump and Putin at the same time, when he was the National Security Adviser.

The former Ambassador, John Bolton, joins me now.

And Ambassador, I mean, you could see Trump's face in that moment, as the French president was saying that they're not getting paid back for the money that they've provided to Ukraine. He also said, though, next to him, that -- made a point of saying, Russia is the aggressor.

What did you make of that exchange?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, I think it's Macron trying to maintain his own position without pushing Trump over the edge, and losing any chance of bringing Trump back to reality. I don't think that Macron will succeed. Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister of Great Britain is coming this week as well. I don't think he'll succeed.

I think we are now close to -- as close to Russia as an ally we've ever been in a hostile environment. It's a huge embarrassment.

But I think most significant of all is that vote in the U.N. today was a clear marker, we are on the path out of NATO. Trump has already done enormous damage to the NATO alliance. Almost every time he talks about Ukraine, he does more.

But that vote, with all of our allies on one side, supporting Ukraine and condemning Russia's unprovoked aggression against Ukraine? With us on the side of Russia and North Korea and countries like that? That shows the NATO alliance is badly split already. And it's at this point, you take too many more steps like that, the actual withdrawal is just a formality.

COLLINS: Did you ever think you'd see a vote like that, that did put the U.S. on the same side as Russia, North Korea, Belarus? I mean, all these other Moscow-friendly nations?

BOLTON: Well, there are a lot of strange votes at the United Nations that I participated in. It wasn't so much the vote itself, as the fact we are aligned with what has always been NATO's principal threat. There have been other threats. We benefited from the Alliance when al Qaeda attacked us on September the 11th.

But I would say, 95-percent-plus of NATO's planning during the Cold War, and since then, has been concerned about a Russian attack. That is the fundamental motivating factor, why the alliance was created and why it still exists today. And we have sided now, in this vote, with NATO's principal adversary. It's just unthinkable that a president could do that.

COLLINS: Do you believe when Trump would not call Putin a dictator earlier. Is that a negotiating strategy? Or do you think he just doesn't think he is one?

BOLTON: Look, Trump's defenders say everything he says is a negotiating strategy, including when he says A, and the next day he says, Not A. It's all just a negotiating strategy. I think it's an indication his mind is full of mush, and he says, whatever comes into it.

He believes Vladimir Putin is his friend. And you don't call your friends, dictators. He doesn't like Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He hasn't liked him since the perfect phone call of the summer of 2018. So, it's no sweat off his back to go ahead and call Zelenskyy, a dictator. This is somebody who is not fit to be president. He can't tell America's friends from its enemies.

COLLINS: On that note. He obviously is the President and is the Commander-in-Chief. And on Friday, he fired the Joint Chiefs Chairman, General CQ Brown, and instead said that he wants to replace him with a retired three-star Air Force General. His name is Dan Caine. They met in Iraq, six years ago, when Trump was last in office.

You were actually there on that visit, and write about this in your book. Is the way that Trump portrays that relationship, because he does talk about him a lot, is it what you witnessed?

BOLTON: Absolutely not. Trump has made up events that didn't happen.

[21:40:00]

We were on the ground in Iraq, I don't know, maybe three hours total. And I was either with Trump every minute of that time on the ground, or in one occasion when he and Mrs. Trump went off to meet some of the service members there. I was actually with Caine and General LaCamera, who was the overall commander, as we were writing up the press release about what happened in the meeting.

So, there was no chance that Trump had a conversation with General Caine that bore any resemblance to what he's described. I never saw Caine wear a MAGA hat.

The President addressed the service members there at the Al-Asad base. Got a very enthusiastic welcome, a lot of young men and women seeing their Commander-in-Chief, really, a very inspiring thing.

I didn't see any MAGA hats in that crowd either, because most of them were in uniform. They're in a base in a hostile environment. And you don't wear civilian accessories, when you're dressed in uniform. And one of the commanders could not have done that and ever expected to get any respect from his subordinates, when they did that.

So, I didn't see it. I don't believe it. And I think it's standard Trump. He makes up the world as he wants it to be, and then his followers, unfortunately, believe him.

COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for your time tonight.

BOLTON: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next. My next source once had the job that President Trump has just given to a right-wing podcaster. This is the new Deputy Director of the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN BONGINO, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PICK FOR FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Power. That is all that matters.

No, it doesn't, Dan. We have a system of checks and balances.

(LAUGHTER)

BONGINO: That's a good one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: President Trump has selected someone to be the next Deputy Director of the FBI, who has called the Bureau, the Deep State, posted that, quote, "The FBI is no longer a law enforcement entity. It is an" opposition "research firm for Democrats."

And who also said this, after that search was executed at Trump's Mar- a-Lago Club, after he refused to hand over classified documents following a subpoena.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: The FBI is lost. It's broken, irredeemably corrupt at this point. The inexcusable raid on President Trump's home was the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean it when I say it. It's way past time to clean this FBI house up. They have burned every last shred of faith and trust freedom-loving Americans had in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Judge signed off on that search warrant, I should remind everyone.

That is Dan Bongino though, that you heard from there. He worked for the New York Police Department in the 90s, before spending just over a decade inside the Secret Service. From there, he unsuccessfully ran for Congress, three times, in two states. But he turned those political defeats into a career, in MAGA punditry, on the radio, on a podcast, and on Fox News.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan joins me now. And Donie, I just want people to kind of listen to how Dan Bongino has used his platform, what he has said previously.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: This fight's coming to your front door, to every single person watching, I am not kidding.

We need to call the Democrats out for what they are. They're either one of a couple things here. Either they're the dumbest people on Planet Earth, which I don't -- I don't believe. I'd love to say that, but it's not true. Or they're deliberately destroying America's cities. Option two is more frightening, because they know -- they're not stupid.

You can take your mask mandate and shove it right up your (bleep).

This is clearly a mechanism to control our people, because you're caving to some politically-correct narrative de jure.

We had an election with unbelievably suspect behavior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Donie, what can you tell us about just Dan Bongino, the reach he has, what that looks like and what the FBI should be preparing for?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Bongino really has huge reach.

I remember, just before the election, for a story I did, a day living in the MAGA media universe, only watching sort of MAGA media outlets and Bongino is omnipresent there. He's across every platform.

He has, I think, more than 6 million followers on X, around the same on Facebook. He was -- he was banned permanently from YouTube for breaking their roles -- breaking their rules on COVID misinformation.

But I think what Bongino especially has really showed is just how well, in the post January 6 world, when a lot of people, including the now-President and then-President Trump, was suspended from major social media platforms, for quite some time.

Bongino has really thrived in this alternative space, especially on a video platform, Rumble, which is basically designed as a right-wing YouTube. He has millions of followers there, I think about 3 million. And all his videos where he streams live, every day, get more than a million views. So really has a huge audience, there.

One thing I do want to show, and I think we have a screenshot of it, is so much in this space, so much in this sort of MAGA universe, is about selling the idea of doomsday.

And this is something that is still live right now. So The Unthinkable Is Happening. And you can buy a three-month emergency food supply kit from Dan Bongino, I think it is, I'm looking at it here. It's about $600 for a three-month supply, Kaitlan, if you're feeling hungry.

But, look, I mean, this is a central part to all of this, which makes it almost so surreal that these guys have such a prominent role in government now, is for years, they have been selling the idea that government tyranny, that people need to be prepared for doomsday. And now they're in, running the place.

COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan, thank you so much.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks.

COLLINS: Up next. I want to talk about how Dan Bongino himself has described the work that he has done, besides selling the emergency prepared food that Donie talked about there, in recent years.

[21:50:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: And I mean it. I'd be lying to you, otherwise. My entire life right now is about owning the libs. That's it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My inside source held the role of Deputy Director longer than anyone else, and also is someone that Trump once considered to run the FBI.

John Pistole joins me now.

And it's great to have you here.

As you know, this is an enormous job. Do you have concerns about the selection of Dan Bongino, and the responsibilities that he's about to have tonight?

JOHN PISTOLE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, I think you've hit it right on the head, Kaitlan, in terms of the responsibility, as I look at it as the three Rs.

So, we have the Rhetoric that we've heard for a while now.

And then we have the Reality of who the FBI is, the people, the men and women who do the hard work every day and what the mission is, and all those work -- all that work that's being done in the national security realm and the traditional criminal investigative realm.

And then we have the Responsibility.

So now we have Director Patel, and the new Deputy Director, who are responsible for all the actions of the FBI, to make sure that the men and women of the FBI are working effectively and efficiently, to accomplish the goals that the American people expect them to do.

And that is to keep them safe, whether it's from domestic threats or foreign threats, and whether that's terrorism, whether that's foreign counterintelligence, espionage, whether that's major cyberthreats, whether it's any of the -- all of the -- corporate frauds, and public corruption, all those things that are, frankly, in question now, based on what the new rules of the road are for the FBI, given this leadership with little to no background, in terms of how to run the FBI.

COLLINS: Well, and on that front, this is someone who had experience in the NYPD, in the Secret Service, but not in the FBI before. Obviously, neither did Kash Patel.

And according to the FBI Agents Association, shortly before Trump announced this, Patel, who is now the confirmed FBI director, agreed, they said privately, that his deputy should be a career FBI agent, as you know is the tradition.

What does it mean if it's not someone who does have that experience?

PISTOLE: Well, the Deputy Director -- and as was mentioned, I served in that role for almost six years, and it's something that the Deputy Director have, I believe, needs to have experience on the street as a street agent, and then in supervisory levels, and then moving up with increasing responsibilities.

Because then, you understand the subtleties and nuances of what the FBI can and cannot do, in terms of investigations, while protecting privacy, civil liberties, things that most Americans still hope for, and believe that that is to be happening by their federal government.

And so, for the FBI to have somebody with none of that experience is concerning, I think, to the FBI Agents Association, and then to all those who are looking to the FBI, to do those things that protect them, while also protecting their civil liberties and privacy.

So, that's that dynamic tension that you hear people talk about sometimes, and as some of my colleagues have talked about. The hope by many of the retired agents, former agents, and even the current workforce, is that the treatment doesn't kill the patient.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what this looks like. Obviously, it's not a Senate-confirmed position, so he will be installed in that role.

John Pistole, great to have your perspective, as always. Thank you.

PISTOLE: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. The White House is declaring victory, tonight, when it comes to an attempt to ban one news outlet. We'll take you inside the press conference today, and what happened in there.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: An update on an important story that we have been following here, at THE SOURCE. Today, a federal judge denied a request from The Associated Press, to immediately restore its access to President Trump's events, including in the Oval Office, and on Air Force One, where The Associated Press has typically always been.

The Administration recently banned the AP over its decision to continue using the phrase, Gulf of Mexico, after Trump declared the body of water, the Gulf of America.

The White House took a victory lap after that ruling from the judge today, including posting the word, Victory, as you can see here, over the Gulf, inside the White House briefing room, in these two pictures.

But this battle is very much still ongoing tonight. The judge has scheduled a hearing for next month, to hear arguments over the AP lawsuit for access to the President.

The judge, who I should note, was appointed by President Trump in his last term in office, at times, appeared somewhat skeptical about the legality of this ban, describing it at one point as, quote, Discriminatory, and at another point, as, Problematic.

The Associated Press reporter, from the United States, was not allowed in today's press conference that we had with the French president, Emmanuel Macron. But their French reporter, from the French press corps, was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Yes, for the President, please.

SYLVIE CORBET, ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTER BASED IN PARIS: Thank you. Sylvie Corbet. I'm AP correspondent based in Paris. Question for both of you actually.

Mr. Macron, you were one of the last Western leaders to speak to Putin before Ukraine's invasion. What advice, what recommendation could you make to President Trump to make sure that this time, you can get strong enough guarantees -- sorry -- from Putin, to get a peace deal that lasts this time.

And Mr. President Trump, what makes you think you can trust Putin in those negotiations?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:00:00]

COLLINS: Both leaders answered that question.

And according to a pool report that we got after the press conference had ended, we learned that the French press corps decided, among themselves, that the Paris-based AP reporter would be the first one to ask their first question.

Thank you so much for joining us. "CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --Clint Hill died today, at the age of 93. He was the Secret Service agent, who risked his life in Dallas, almost 62 years ago, jumping onto the limousine, carrying President John F. Kennedy, and first lady Jacqueline Kennedy.

Hill never forgave himself for being unable to save the President. He talked to "60 Minutes'" Mike Wallace in 1975.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINT HILL, SECRET SERVICE AGENT WHO JUMPED ONTO LIMO AFTER JFK WAS SHOT: It's my fault.

MIKE WALLACE, AMERICAN JOURNALIST AND GAME SHOW HOST: Oh, no one has ever suggested that for an instant.

HILL: I--

WALLACE: What you did was show great bravery and great presence of mind. What was on the citation that was given you for your work on November 22nd, 1963?

HILL: I don't care about that, Mike.

WALLACE: Extraordinary courage and heroic effort in the face of maximum danger.

HILL: Mike, I don't care about that. If I had reacted just a little bit quicker -- and I could have, I guess. And I'll live with that to my grave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.

Elon Musk says federal workers will now get a second email to justify their jobs, and failures to respond a second time will result in termination. The ultimatum that led to chaos across the government.

And more Republicans are now getting an earful from their constituents, worried about how DOGE might affect them. One of those lawmakers, who faced part of that backlash, will join me live to talk about it.

And tonight, one of the nation's most well-known conspiracy theorist, who has never worked at the FBI, but has spread false information about it, was just selected to be the second-in-command. A former Deputy Director of the FBI is here to weigh in, on two people, who have never worked there, now running it.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Good evening from Washington, where whiplash seems to be the word of the day, especially when it comes to federal workers.

First, they got a midnight deadline to essentially justify their jobs via email, or lose them if they didn't reply.

Then, after days of confusion, even among some cabinet secretaries, suddenly replying became voluntary, and their jobs were also no longer at stake.

But tonight, we are hearing from Elon Musk, who says it is back, and that another email could soon be on the way to them.

Now, this all started when he first issued an ultimatum over the weekend. It came via the Office of Personnel Management, in an email, titled, What did you do last week? It contained an order to list at least five accomplishments, as you can see here, and federal workers were given a deadline of 11:59 p.m. Eastern, tonight, to respond.

What followed was disbelief, a lot of confusion, some frustration, not just from these employees who got the email. Even their bosses seemed unsure about what they should do. Multiple federal agencies, including the Pentagon, the FBI, the State Department, told their employees just to ignore the ultimatum, that they didn't have to respond.

Then today, around 1 o'clock, this afternoon, we learned where President Trump stood on all of this. 100 percent behind Elon Musk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I thought it was great, because we have people that don't show up to work, and nobody even knows if they work for the government.

So by asking the question, Tell us what you did this week, what he's doing is saying, Are you actually working? And then if you don't answer, like you're sort of semi-fired, or you're fired, because a lot of people are not answering, because they don't even exist.

I think it was actually, there was a lot of genius in sending it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The President praising it, as he also downplayed any notion this idea of a disconnect between what Musk was telling federal employees to do, and what they were hearing from agency heads.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: No, no, no. That was done in a friendly manner. Only things such as perhaps, Marco at State Department, where they have very confidential things, or the FBI where they're working on confidential things. And they don't mean that in any way combatively with Elon. They're just saying there are some people that you don't want to really have them tell you what they're working on last week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That's what we heard from the President today, around launch, inside the Oval Office.

It was around then, early this afternoon when we also heard from Trump's own government that clarified that email was all -- was optional, potentially because of the national security concerns that you heard the President cite there that got in the way.

Look at what the Department of Health and Human Services warned to its employees, saying, if they did respond, again, given this was voluntary, that they should, quote, "Assume that what you write will be read by malign foreign actors and tailor your response accordingly."

Then tonight, we heard from Musk on social media, who said this. Subject to the discretion of the President, they will be given another chance. Failure to respond a second time will result in termination.

[21:05:00]

Now, all of this has begged the question about who is exactly in charge here, who federal employees should be listening to when it comes to Trump. Elon Musk? Cabinet secretaries?

That seemed to be the same question that a federal judge had today, when they were grilling a Justice Department attorney who couldn't say who the, quote, Administrator of DOGE is.

The judge here was asking, quote, Where is Mr. Musk in all of this? At this point, you can't tell me what role he has. A DOJ attorney who was in that courtroom responded, and said, He is an adviser to the president.

She asked, Is there an administrator of USDS at the present time. That is the agency that they turned into what is now known as DOGE. The attorney responded, quote, I don't know the answer.

The judge then encouraged the rest of the lawyers, at the counsels' table, to speak up if they knew. None said they did.

My lead source tonight is veteran journalist, and historian, Garrett Graff.

And Garrett, it's great to have you.

Because I just think if you are this federal worker, and you're hearing what the President said in the Oval, you're seeing what Elon Musk is saying tonight on Twitter, and this email telling you that this is voluntary. The question is, what you do, going from there?

GARRETT GRAFF, JOURNALIST & HISTORIAN, AUTHOR, "WATERGATE: A NEW HISTORY": Yes. And I think one of the things that's been interesting is it's taken the federal agencies, a while, to clarify that this email is, in fact, voluntary.

But one of the things remember, when Elon Musk sort of first emailed the entire federal workforce, a couple of weeks ago, it forced OPM to put out a privacy impact statement that made clear that all emails from Elon Musk, to the federal workforce, are voluntary, and that there is no adverse action that will be taken for people who do not comply with them or do not respond to them.

And what I think you really saw a lot over the last 48, 72 hours, as this particular controversy has played out, is this divide between Elon Musk and the national security establishment.

That it is clear that you have the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, the Justice Department, the Pentagon, all saying, No, no, no, we're the people who manage our own workforces. You don't get to decide who works for us, and who actually is doing jobs that we want done.

And to me, that's going to be a very interesting, I think, sort of potential fracture in this weird power-sharing agreement that Trump and Musk and the various cabinet departments have appeared to settle into, over the last couple of weeks.

COLLINS: Yes, that was the question given, you know, we have not seen Cabinet Secretaries come out and openly, say, You don't actually have to do this. And this isn't, you know -- these are all people like Pam Bondi, Kash Patel, I mean real Trump loyalists that are saying, that this caused a lot of confusion for them, about whether or not to respond.

And on that HHS email, when they said that anything that they -- that they could send of Hey, here's what I did this week, that it could be read by a malign foreign actor. What do you think is the biggest risk here, in terms of emailing out that information, if you're answering the email genuinely and earnestly?

GRAFF: I think that there are a couple of different sort of sets of concerns here.

One is what people might actually say in the email. The original email from DOGE, from OPM said, Don't send any classified information in here. But there's a lot of activity that someone who is reading these emails, could actually discern, to be classified and sensitive, even if it's not technically classified.

Secondly, though you have just who is replying to this. Are there people who were receiving this email, or are replying to it, who are in jobs in one part of the government, but are saying that they are doing a different type of job, different type of work. I mean, are these people in sort of undercover positions, elsewhere, in government? So that's a sensitive set of concerns.

And then I think the third, and just the strangest bit of all of this, is this technical disconnect, where Elon Musk has set up authority for himself to email the entire federal workforce, apparently without coordination with the cabinet departments, and without having, seemingly to have to authorize those communications to the federal workforce with anyone in advance.

[21:10:00]

I mean, that alone is sort of a stunning set of phishing concerns from a cybersecurity standpoint. I mean, if employees just sort of start getting these emails from hr@opm.gov, if it says, Click on this link or you will be fired by midnight? That's like the most basic set of phishing cybersecurity pests that any company in the world is trying to erase.

COLLINS: Yes, it's a great point there. Garrett Graff, great to have you. Thank you so much for that.

Also joining me tonight are my political sources.

We have Democratic strategist, Ameshia Cross.

National Review Editor, Ramesh Ponnuru.

And a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.

All here with us.

Ramesh, what do you make of the fact that this has kind of gone back and forth. I thought it was really notable in the Oval, when Trump stood by Elon Musk. Elon Musk seemed to also think that, because he tweeted out that comment, and shared it pretty quickly after it was made.

But now, Musk is saying tonight that a second email could be on the way at Trump's discretion.

RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, it's just pretty simple. These -- responding to these emails is voluntary, but it's also mandatory. And if you don't do it, you might just get semi-fired, and you may or may not exist. I don't -- I don't know why people--

COLLINS: But what is semi-fired?

PONNURU: --are so confused?

COLLINS: That was quite confusing.

PONNURU: I mean, semi-fired. And we've all been semi-fired from time to time.

Look, this administration talks much more than most administrations about a unitary executive. The executive has one will, speaks with one voice, but it acts like it's completely disorganized mess. And we're seeing that inaction. We saw it in the first administration. Up until recently, we hadn't seen that level of disorganization from this administration. But now, we're beginning to see it.

COLLINS: Yes, and we've heard a lot of people say, Give DOGE a chance. The federal government is bloated. It is way too large. Let them try to make this work.

But I think the criticism that some people were noting was, it supposed to make government more efficient. The chaos from this, and how this, was leaving Cabinet Secretaries even in the lurch, was not efficiency. It was inefficiency.

AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Oh, absolutely. And I think it was inefficient. It was confusing. It is taking a sledgehammer. It is not really paying attention to how government actually works.

And the problem with somebody being in charge of government efficiency, who has never actually worked in government, who has never been in any of these agencies, who has never held an elected office, is that the basic functions of what it takes to get anything done, he is going around. And he's not -- and he's going around it, but also not being informed by the people who do this work every day.

So, I think that it's a very stark contrast when we hear from department or agency heads who are speaking out, because that is even in stark contrast to what's happening in Congress. Because Congress thus far, has not said anything extremely substantial, when it comes to leveraging any level of pushback.

And I think that it can be said that across multiple sides of the political spectrum, people want to see government more efficient. They want to get rid of certain levels of red tape. They want the bureaucracy to work.

However, we've seen certain changes before. The Clinton administration did this, but they did it in the right way. They went through Congress. They did not shake everything up, see what breaks, and then try to figure it out, years later and down the line. What we're seeing, right now, is that DOGE doesn't really have a plan. The plan is to get rid of as many federal workers as possible, without any real understanding of the systems that are going to be affected, and honestly, no real concern.

COLLINS: Well, and that's why the judge grilling the DOJ lawyer today, about what is his title, or who actually is in charge, that could actually have a huge impact on the lawsuits that a lot of these fired federal workers are bringing in court.

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: It absolutely could. I mean, it's remarkable to me that you see the federal judges basically going down the line, asking each Justice Department lawyer, Do you know who is in charge? Do you know who is -- if anyone knows, speak up.

I also can't get over the fact that you have Kash Patel, who is not exactly known for being a defender of the bureaucracy, basically said, Hey, pump the brakes here a bit, Elon. We can't just fire all the FBI lawyers for not completing the five-step list.

I think what we're seeing here is, look, Elon Musk obviously has vast experience in the private sector. And tech companies, often, I am sure, send out emails to people, saying, Look, we need to slim down. Justify your job, why do you have it.

But it doesn't quite map on perfectly to the federal government, which is the most sprawling bureaucracy you can imagine. There are laws in place that prevent you from summarily terminating federal employees.

So, I think this is just the first of what, in all likelihood, is going to be a long line of skirmishes and battles, over Musk and Trump trying to downsize the federal workforce, and just getting a huge amount of pushback from the bureaucracy itself.

PONNURU: And just to underline the point. Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, put out a statement saying that everybody in the administration is working as one unified team under the direction of the President.

There is only one circumstance in which a White House press secretary puts out that statement, and that is when it is manifestly untrue.

COLLINS: Well, and with Elon Musk himself, we saw this -- someone hacked into the videos, at HUD today, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and they had this AI-generated video of Trump -- we have a picture of it, I believe -- Trump kissing Elon Musk's feet. Obviously it's not real. But the message across it says, Long Live The Real King.

And The New York Times reported tonight that leaders of the department could not immediately identify how they had been hacked to display those images. They ended up just unplugging several devices to basically turn it off.

CROSS: Yes, this is going to be a messy divorce, whenever it occurs, between Elon and Trump.

[21:15:00]

But at the end of the day, people are seeing that when you break things, this administration isn't trying to fix them. They're breaking things really quickly. And Trump is saying one thing, to Republican leaders in Congress, and saying something entirely differently on Truth Social, and to Elon Musk.

Because, they recognize midterms are right around the corner. And at the end of the day, these town halls that district members are showing up to every single day, at this point, they're raising the ire.

We're seeing that Trump's approval rating is going down. It doesn't matter what Elon Musk approval rating is. He's not an elected official. However, it does matter how individuals on the ground view this administration. And in plus-17, plus-18 Republican districts, people are getting really angry, really fast.

COLLINS: Yes, well, I'm glad you brought that up, because we're going to talk about that coming up.

Everybody, thank you so much.

The subject of Musk and federal firings was front and center at a town hall, as we just talked about. Some Republican lawmakers, including my next source, went on defense, and answered the questions, this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARK ALFORD (R-MO): Elon Musk does have a security clearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he doesn't--

AUDIENCE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:20:00]

COLLINS: As President Trump and Elon Musk work to slash the federal government, and some Republicans are weighing cuts, to programs like Medicaid in their budget bill. Lawmakers returned home in recent days, for the first recess since Trump took office.

And a coffee shop, in Missouri today, became the latest spot where voters voiced their concerns about all of that to their elected representative, face-to-face.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALFORD: Her question was, will I support not cutting Medicaid?

(CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medicare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Medicare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want--

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: No, she said Medicaid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neither. Neither.

ALFORD: Government is not immune to layoffs.

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: Elon Musk does have a security clearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he doesn't--

AUDIENCE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight is the congressman you saw there, at his meeting with constituents this morning. Republican Mark Alford.

And first off, I hope you had a cup of coffee before that started this morning.

ALFORD: I did. We had to cut people off. I think they had too much caffeine.

COLLINS: You normally do these meetings, and you say you have like five to 10 people show up.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: This was a 150 people, I believe. Were you surprised by the level of frustration that you heard?

ALFORD: I would like to say that I was.

And first, thank you for having me on, Kaitlan.

Look, we've done 90 of these, since I've been in office. I'm a sophomore. I've been in office for two years and a couple of months now. And I love going out and talking to folks in our district. I love having one-on-one conversations. That's how we get things done.

I welcome people who don't agree with me, so that I can try to win them over, hear their concerns. I represent 772,047 individuals, Republicans, Democrats, independents, politically-agnostic. I want to hear their ideas. And that's what we do, usually, at Mondays with Mark. Before I fly back to Washington, we have discussions. This was brought about outside agitators, and some people from outside our district, not our constituents, who came there to make their voices heard. And I respect that. They have every right to be there. We did not prohibit them, even though they did not live in our district.

But I really wanted to hear from our constituents. That's who sent me to Congress. And that's who I owe, really, my service to. And they were not really able to be heard.

Some of them were there, who had worked for the IRS, and were getting laid off in Kansas City. And I really wanted to hear their concerns, and let's work together about how can we find you the next job? There are thousands of jobs, a 150,000 -- a 175,000 jobs, right now, available in Missouri.

COLLINS: You say, outside agitators. Are you saying that none of them were your constituents that were there?

ALFORD: No, no, no, no, I -- some were. I went -- and let me make that very clear. Some were our constituents. They clearly were not on -- aligned with my way of thinking, and they did not vote for Trump.

COLLINS: Well from those constituents--

ALFORD: But that's OK. I don't -- I wanted to hear from them.

COLLINS: Yes, as you said you--

ALFORD: And hear their concerns.

COLLINS: You represent Democrats as well.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: And you are the elected official.

And some of the concerns we've heard are about Elon Musk and the DOGE effort on slashing those jobs at the IRS or other agencies.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: I know you've got a lot of federal workers in your state.

What do you say to them about how it's being executed? We just talked about the email they got over the weekend.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: Do you think maybe there should be more compassion in how it's being handled?

ALFORD: Look, I think I'm a -- came from the communication industry. I was a television anchor, in Kansas City, for many years. And so, I am big on communicating. I think that's important, whether it's in your marriage, or your business. I met a guy at the airport today, who works for the FDIC, and he was flying up to New York City. He was quite upset, he was going to have to lay people off. And we talked to -- he was very angry. I mean, I said, Let's just talk about this. What can we do better?

He says, We've got -- you guys got to communicate better, because it's chaos.

And what I told him, Kaitlan is, I said, Look, this is a ship that's headed towards a reef. And if we hit this reef, because of our $36 trillion in debt, if we do not turn that ship away from the reef, we are all going to be sunk. And when a ship is headed towards a reef, there is chaos on the deck. I am glad that we have Donald J. Trump behind the helm that is steering that boat, along with Elon Musk.

But yes, there's chaos. But we, conservatives and members of Congress, must do the best we can--

COLLINS: But you think--

ALFORD: --with the information we have.

COLLINS: You think it could be communicated better?

ALFORD: Look, I am always about information, as you are, being in the communications business. As soon as I get information from the White House, or from any sector in the agencies, we will relay that to.

I am implementing a new program on our -- I told our communications director. We're going to start trying to put out daily bulletins on our website with the latest information that we have.

[21:25:00]

COLLINS: But secondly, sometimes that information changes, like with the email over the weekend--

ALFORD: Yes, it does.

COLLINS: --where now they were told, they didn't have to reply. They did.

But in terms of how this is happening. And I don't think anyone would argue or would disagree that the federal government is too big and bloated. But in terms of how you slim it down, don't you feel that you, as a member of Congress, should have a say in that? Because what they're slashing, and what they're cutting, is money that you already appropriated.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: It's already -- it's not -- you know, they talk about fraud. None of it's fraud. Maybe you don't like how it's being spent. But they say it's fraudulent. But it was appropriated by your body.

ALFORD: Right. And I'm newest member on the Appropriations Committee. I'm going to take that very seriously. I am on a subcommittee that oversees USAID, before I think it's going to be moved to the State Department.

We've got to make sure that programs like that have to do with national security, moving forward. I want to rename them National Security Investment projects, to where we're making sure that our taxpayer dollars are put into programs, specifically for our national defense.

But yes, I want to make sure that we're doing our job. But I am not the Chief Executive. The Chief Executive of the United States of America is Donald J. Trump, and he has the authority to appoint whomever he wants to help get this done. He has appointed Elon Musk, and those working under him, to right this ship.

COLLINS: Of course. But it is money that Congress has appropriated. I think that's the question, and if Congress will pass another CR. We're talking about spending right now.

The other question you got was about Medicaid.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: At the town hall, this morning, the coffee.

When it comes to Medicaid, some of your colleagues are considering cutting Medicaid, in order to pass your budget blueprint, to get the tax cuts done again, and to get Trump's other legislative priorities.

Would you vote for a bill that includes cuts to Medicaid?

ALFORD: I will vote for a bill, tomorrow, that has savings for Medicaid. And I'll tell you the difference. This is just not a nuanced position.

There is waste, abuse, and fraud, in Medicaid. We are finding out, through DOGE, and through the access to this data, that there is waste, abuse, and fraud, in just about every government program. We knew that. I don't think we wanted to admit that it was this bad. But in the Medicaid system, we've got to make sure that that's eliminated.

And then we also have to make sure that able-bodied adults with no dependent children are not on Medicaid. And right now, the system says that there are. I think the savings are to be found there. But we can--

COLLINS: So, you do want changes to Medicaid, and you will vote for that?

ALFORD: I want changes. But I'm not going to throw granny off the cliff, and people who really need Medicaid, and depend upon that for their health--

COLLINS: But can you--

ALFORD: --and survivability. COLLINS: You've been in Congress for two years. If there is fraud in Medicaid, why have we not heard anything from House Republicans about that, for the last two years?

ALFORD: Look, I'm not on Energy and Commerce, which -- or Ways and Means.

COLLINS: Which is tasked with coming up with $880 billion--

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: --in cuts, as you know.

ALFORD: And I--

COLLINS: Which a lot of people are worried that's more than just the reforms that you're talking about--

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: Kaitlan, I'm not making excuses. We need to do a better job. And I think every chair is charged now. This is serious business we're talking about. And that's why I went in and faced the people who don't want me in office, and some who wanted, I think, to do me harm. That's why we had a SWAT team and many police there. And I can take that.

But I take this serious, because this is the survival of our nation. And I don't think people understand what a severe point we are. We are gaining over a trillion dollars in interest, every year. That's more than we spend on our national defense. 75 percent of our spending in America is spent on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

COLLINS: But I think some people may say, they have real concerns that Republicans are going to cut Medicaid, and that there are going to be people who lose their benefits, not just the people that you're talking about there, or -- you said that there is waste and abuse in it.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: We haven't seen any examples of fraud produced on Medicaid itself.

But how do you tell people that when you vote for that tomorrow, and vote yes, that it won't mean they have real cuts in Medicaid?

ALFORD: So, Kaitlan, tomorrow, what we'll be voting on, and I hope it gets on the floor, I will be voting yes, is simply a -- it gets us on the dance floor, this budget resolution. Nothing is going to be in fine print. That happens in the reconciliation process.

So, the House votes on our budget, the Senate on theirs, and then, just like "Schoolhouse Rock," we come together in a conference, and reconcile like you would reconcile your checkbook. And in that, we are going to have the details of exactly how that plays out. And there may be some people, at that point, who don't like what is in that reconciliation package. But we got to get on the dance floor.

COLLINS: Once we have a better look at that, we'll have you back, Congressman.

ALFORD: Please do.

COLLINS: Thank you.

ALFORD: Thank you.

COLLINS: Thank you for your time tonight. And good luck with that reconciliation process.

ALFORD: Thank you.

COLLINS: It may not be very peaceful.

Up next. Two world leaders, two very different messages that we heard today. It's the third anniversary of Russia invading Ukraine. There was a remarkable moment, in the Oval Office, when the French president jumped in to correct President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.

EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE: No, in fact, to be -- to be frank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: On this, the third anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we watched in New York, this morning, as the United States, at the United Nations, stood firmly on the same side as the Kremlin, against a resolution calling out Moscow's aggression and demanding an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops.

At the same time, in Washington, in the East Room at the White House, we watched as a delicate new reality of American relations with European allies was on full display, as President Trump welcomed French president, Emmanuel Macron, and the attempts to be friendly were juxtaposed by an extraordinary moment, in the Oval Office, when the French president fact-checked the U.S. president, in real-time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Just so you understand, Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.

[21:35:00]

MACRON: No, in fact, to be -- to be frank, we paid. We paid 60 percent of the total default. And it was--

TRUMP: Oh (ph).

MACRON: --like the U.S., loans guarantee, grants, and we provided real money, to be clear.

TRUMP: Yes (ph).

MACRON: We have 230 billion frozen assets in Europe -- Russian assets. But this is not as a collateral of a loan because this is not our belonging. So, they are frozen. If at the end of the day in the negotiation we will have with Russia, they're ready to give -- to give it to us? Super. It will be loan at the end of the day, and Russia would have paid for that. This is my wish.

TRUMP: If you believe that, it's OK with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President--

TRUMP: They get their money back. We don't. And now we do. But, you know, that's only fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My next source has represented the U.S. at the United Nations, and also been in the room with Trump and Putin at the same time, when he was the National Security Adviser.

The former Ambassador, John Bolton, joins me now.

And Ambassador, I mean, you could see Trump's face in that moment, as the French president was saying that they're not getting paid back for the money that they've provided to Ukraine. He also said, though, next to him, that -- made a point of saying, Russia is the aggressor.

What did you make of that exchange?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, I think it's Macron trying to maintain his own position without pushing Trump over the edge, and losing any chance of bringing Trump back to reality. I don't think that Macron will succeed. Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister of Great Britain is coming this week as well. I don't think he'll succeed.

I think we are now close to -- as close to Russia as an ally we've ever been in a hostile environment. It's a huge embarrassment.

But I think most significant of all is that vote in the U.N. today was a clear marker, we are on the path out of NATO. Trump has already done enormous damage to the NATO alliance. Almost every time he talks about Ukraine, he does more.

But that vote, with all of our allies on one side, supporting Ukraine and condemning Russia's unprovoked aggression against Ukraine? With us on the side of Russia and North Korea and countries like that? That shows the NATO alliance is badly split already. And it's at this point, you take too many more steps like that, the actual withdrawal is just a formality.

COLLINS: Did you ever think you'd see a vote like that, that did put the U.S. on the same side as Russia, North Korea, Belarus? I mean, all these other Moscow-friendly nations?

BOLTON: Well, there are a lot of strange votes at the United Nations that I participated in. It wasn't so much the vote itself, as the fact we are aligned with what has always been NATO's principal threat. There have been other threats. We benefited from the Alliance when al Qaeda attacked us on September the 11th.

But I would say, 95-percent-plus of NATO's planning during the Cold War, and since then, has been concerned about a Russian attack. That is the fundamental motivating factor, why the alliance was created and why it still exists today. And we have sided now, in this vote, with NATO's principal adversary. It's just unthinkable that a president could do that.

COLLINS: Do you believe when Trump would not call Putin a dictator earlier. Is that a negotiating strategy? Or do you think he just doesn't think he is one?

BOLTON: Look, Trump's defenders say everything he says is a negotiating strategy, including when he says A, and the next day he says, Not A. It's all just a negotiating strategy. I think it's an indication his mind is full of mush, and he says, whatever comes into it.

He believes Vladimir Putin is his friend. And you don't call your friends, dictators. He doesn't like Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He hasn't liked him since the perfect phone call of the summer of 2018. So, it's no sweat off his back to go ahead and call Zelenskyy, a dictator. This is somebody who is not fit to be president. He can't tell America's friends from its enemies.

COLLINS: On that note. He obviously is the President and is the Commander-in-Chief. And on Friday, he fired the Joint Chiefs Chairman, General CQ Brown, and instead said that he wants to replace him with a retired three-star Air Force General. His name is Dan Caine. They met in Iraq, six years ago, when Trump was last in office.

You were actually there on that visit, and write about this in your book. Is the way that Trump portrays that relationship, because he does talk about him a lot, is it what you witnessed?

BOLTON: Absolutely not. Trump has made up events that didn't happen.

[21:40:00]

We were on the ground in Iraq, I don't know, maybe three hours total. And I was either with Trump every minute of that time on the ground, or in one occasion when he and Mrs. Trump went off to meet some of the service members there. I was actually with Caine and General LaCamera, who was the overall commander, as we were writing up the press release about what happened in the meeting. So, there was no chance that Trump had a conversation with General Caine that bore any resemblance to what he's described. I never saw Caine wear a MAGA hat.

The President addressed the service members there at the Al-Asad base. Got a very enthusiastic welcome, a lot of young men and women seeing their Commander-in-Chief, really, a very inspiring thing.

I didn't see any MAGA hats in that crowd either, because most of them were in uniform. They're in a base in a hostile environment. And you don't wear civilian accessories, when you're dressed in uniform. And one of the commanders could not have done that and ever expected to get any respect from his subordinates, when they did that.

So, I didn't see it. I don't believe it. And I think it's standard Trump. He makes up the world as he wants it to be, and then his followers, unfortunately, believe him.

COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for your time tonight.

BOLTON: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next. My next source once had the job that President Trump has just given to a right-wing podcaster. This is the new Deputy Director of the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN BONGINO, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PICK FOR FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Power. That is all that matters.

No, it doesn't, Dan. We have a system of checks and balances.

(LAUGHTER)

BONGINO: That's a good one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: President Trump has selected someone to be the next Deputy Director of the FBI, who has called the Bureau, the Deep State, posted that, quote, "The FBI is no longer a law enforcement entity. It is an" opposition "research firm for Democrats."

And who also said this, after that search was executed at Trump's Mar- a-Lago Club, after he refused to hand over classified documents following a subpoena.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: The FBI is lost. It's broken, irredeemably corrupt at this point. The inexcusable raid on President Trump's home was the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean it when I say it. It's way past time to clean this FBI house up. They have burned every last shred of faith and trust freedom-loving Americans had in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Judge signed off on that search warrant, I should remind everyone.

That is Dan Bongino though, that you heard from there. He worked for the New York Police Department in the 90s, before spending just over a decade inside the Secret Service. From there, he unsuccessfully ran for Congress, three times, in two states. But he turned those political defeats into a career, in MAGA punditry, on the radio, on a podcast, and on Fox News.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan joins me now.

And Donie, I just want people to kind of listen to how Dan Bongino has used his platform, what he has said previously.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: This fight's coming to your front door, to every single person watching, I am not kidding.

We need to call the Democrats out for what they are. They're either one of a couple things here. Either they're the dumbest people on Planet Earth, which I don't -- I don't believe. I'd love to say that, but it's not true. Or they're deliberately destroying America's cities. Option two is more frightening, because they know -- they're not stupid.

You can take your mask mandate and shove it right up your (bleep).

This is clearly a mechanism to control our people, because you're caving to some politically-correct narrative de jure.

We had an election with unbelievably suspect behavior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Donie, what can you tell us about just Dan Bongino, the reach he has, what that looks like and what the FBI should be preparing for?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Bongino really has huge reach.

I remember, just before the election, for a story I did, a day living in the MAGA media universe, only watching sort of MAGA media outlets and Bongino is omnipresent there. He's across every platform.

He has, I think, more than 6 million followers on X, around the same on Facebook. He was -- he was banned permanently from YouTube for breaking their roles -- breaking their rules on COVID misinformation.

But I think what Bongino especially has really showed is just how well, in the post January 6 world, when a lot of people, including the now-President and then-President Trump, was suspended from major social media platforms, for quite some time.

Bongino has really thrived in this alternative space, especially on a video platform, Rumble, which is basically designed as a right-wing YouTube. He has millions of followers there, I think about 3 million. And all his videos where he streams live, every day, get more than a million views. So really has a huge audience, there.

One thing I do want to show, and I think we have a screenshot of it, is so much in this space, so much in this sort of MAGA universe, is about selling the idea of doomsday.

And this is something that is still live right now. So The Unthinkable Is Happening. And you can buy a three-month emergency food supply kit from Dan Bongino, I think it is, I'm looking at it here. It's about $600 for a three-month supply, Kaitlan, if you're feeling hungry.

But, look, I mean, this is a central part to all of this, which makes it almost so surreal that these guys have such a prominent role in government now, is for years, they have been selling the idea that government tyranny, that people need to be prepared for doomsday. And now they're in, running the place.

COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan, thank you so much.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks.

COLLINS: Up next. I want to talk about how Dan Bongino himself has described the work that he has done, besides selling the emergency prepared food that Donie talked about there, in recent years.

[21:50:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: And I mean it. I'd be lying to you, otherwise. My entire life right now is about owning the libs. That's it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My inside source held the role of Deputy Director longer than anyone else, and also is someone that Trump once considered to run the FBI.

John Pistole joins me now.

And it's great to have you here.

As you know, this is an enormous job. Do you have concerns about the selection of Dan Bongino, and the responsibilities that he's about to have tonight?

JOHN PISTOLE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, I think you've hit it right on the head, Kaitlan, in terms of the responsibility, as I look at it as the three Rs. So, we have the Rhetoric that we've heard for a while now.

And then we have the Reality of who the FBI is, the people, the men and women who do the hard work every day and what the mission is, and all those work -- all that work that's being done in the national security realm and the traditional criminal investigative realm.

And then we have the Responsibility.

So now we have Director Patel, and the new Deputy Director, who are responsible for all the actions of the FBI, to make sure that the men and women of the FBI are working effectively and efficiently, to accomplish the goals that the American people expect them to do.

And that is to keep them safe, whether it's from domestic threats or foreign threats, and whether that's terrorism, whether that's foreign counterintelligence, espionage, whether that's major cyberthreats, whether it's any of the -- all of the -- corporate frauds, and public corruption, all those things that are, frankly, in question now, based on what the new rules of the road are for the FBI, given this leadership with little to no background, in terms of how to run the FBI.

COLLINS: Well, and on that front, this is someone who had experience in the NYPD, in the Secret Service, but not in the FBI before. Obviously, neither did Kash Patel.

And according to the FBI Agents Association, shortly before Trump announced this, Patel, who is now the confirmed FBI director, agreed, they said privately, that his deputy should be a career FBI agent, as you know is the tradition.

What does it mean if it's not someone who does have that experience?

PISTOLE: Well, the Deputy Director -- and as was mentioned, I served in that role for almost six years, and it's something that the Deputy Director have, I believe, needs to have experience on the street as a street agent, and then in supervisory levels, and then moving up with increasing responsibilities.

Because then, you understand the subtleties and nuances of what the FBI can and cannot do, in terms of investigations, while protecting privacy, civil liberties, things that most Americans still hope for, and believe that that is to be happening by their federal government.

And so, for the FBI to have somebody with none of that experience is concerning, I think, to the FBI Agents Association, and then to all those who are looking to the FBI, to do those things that protect them, while also protecting their civil liberties and privacy.

So, that's that dynamic tension that you hear people talk about sometimes, and as some of my colleagues have talked about. The hope by many of the retired agents, former agents, and even the current workforce, is that the treatment doesn't kill the patient.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what this looks like. Obviously, it's not a Senate-confirmed position, so he will be installed in that role.

John Pistole, great to have your perspective, as always. Thank you.

PISTOLE: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. The White House is declaring victory, tonight, when it comes to an attempt to ban one news outlet. We'll take you inside the press conference today, and what happened in there.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: An update on an important story that we have been following here, at THE SOURCE.

Today, a federal judge denied a request from The Associated Press, to immediately restore its access to President Trump's events, including in the Oval Office, and on Air Force One, where The Associated Press has typically always been.

The Administration recently banned the AP over its decision to continue using the phrase, Gulf of Mexico, after Trump declared the body of water, the Gulf of America.

The White House took a victory lap after that ruling from the judge today, including posting the word, Victory, as you can see here, over the Gulf, inside the White House briefing room, in these two pictures.

But this battle is very much still ongoing tonight. The judge has scheduled a hearing for next month, to hear arguments over the AP lawsuit for access to the President.

The judge, who I should note, was appointed by President Trump in his last term in office, at times, appeared somewhat skeptical about the legality of this ban, describing it at one point as, quote, Discriminatory, and at another point, as, Problematic.

The Associated Press reporter, from the United States, was not allowed in today's press conference that we had with the French president, Emmanuel Macron. But their French reporter, from the French press corps, was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Yes, for the President, please.

SYLVIE CORBET, ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTER BASED IN PARIS: Thank you. Sylvie Corbet. I'm AP correspondent based in Paris. Question for both of you actually.

Mr. Macron, you were one of the last Western leaders to speak to Putin before Ukraine's invasion. What advice, what recommendation could you make to President Trump to make sure that this time, you can get strong enough guarantees -- sorry -- from Putin, to get a peace deal that lasts this time. And Mr. President Trump, what makes you think you can trust Putin in those negotiations?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:00:00]

COLLINS: Both leaders answered that question.

And according to a pool report that we got after the press conference had ended, we learned that the French press corps decided, among themselves, that the Paris-based AP reporter would be the first one to ask their first question.

Thank you so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --Clint Hill died today, at the age of 93. He was the Secret Service agent, who risked his life in Dallas, almost 62 years ago, jumping onto the limousine, carrying President John F. Kennedy, and first lady Jacqueline Kennedy.

Hill never forgave himself for being unable to save the President. He talked to "60 Minutes'" Mike Wallace in 1975.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINT HILL, SECRET SERVICE AGENT WHO JUMPED ONTO LIMO AFTER JFK WAS SHOT: It's my fault.

MIKE WALLACE, AMERICAN JOURNALIST AND GAME SHOW HOST: Oh, no one has ever suggested that for an instant. HILL: I--

WALLACE: What you did was show great bravery and great presence of mind. What was on the citation that was given you for your work on November 22nd, 1963?

HILL: I don't care about that, Mike.

WALLACE: Extraordinary courage and heroic effort in the face of maximum danger.

HILL: Mike, I don't care about that. If I had reacted just a little bit quicker -- and I could have, I guess. And I'll live with that to my grave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.

Elon Musk says federal workers will now get a second email to justify their jobs, and failures to respond a second time will result in termination. The ultimatum that led to chaos across the government.

And more Republicans are now getting an earful from their constituents, worried about how DOGE might affect them. One of those lawmakers, who faced part of that backlash, will join me live to talk about it.

And tonight, one of the nation's most well-known conspiracy theorist, who has never worked at the FBI, but has spread false information about it, was just selected to be the second-in-command. A former Deputy Director of the FBI is here to weigh in, on two people, who have never worked there, now running it.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Good evening from Washington, where whiplash seems to be the word of the day, especially when it comes to federal workers.

First, they got a midnight deadline to essentially justify their jobs via email, or lose them if they didn't reply.

Then, after days of confusion, even among some cabinet secretaries, suddenly replying became voluntary, and their jobs were also no longer at stake.

But tonight, we are hearing from Elon Musk, who says it is back, and that another email could soon be on the way to them.

Now, this all started when he first issued an ultimatum over the weekend. It came via the Office of Personnel Management, in an email, titled, What did you do last week? It contained an order to list at least five accomplishments, as you can see here, and federal workers were given a deadline of 11:59 p.m. Eastern, tonight, to respond.

What followed was disbelief, a lot of confusion, some frustration, not just from these employees who got the email. Even their bosses seemed unsure about what they should do. Multiple federal agencies, including the Pentagon, the FBI, the State Department, told their employees just to ignore the ultimatum, that they didn't have to respond.

Then today, around 1 o'clock, this afternoon, we learned where President Trump stood on all of this. 100 percent behind Elon Musk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I thought it was great, because we have people that don't show up to work, and nobody even knows if they work for the government.

So by asking the question, Tell us what you did this week, what he's doing is saying, Are you actually working? And then if you don't answer, like you're sort of semi-fired, or you're fired, because a lot of people are not answering, because they don't even exist.

I think it was actually, there was a lot of genius in sending it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The President praising it, as he also downplayed any notion this idea of a disconnect between what Musk was telling federal employees to do, and what they were hearing from agency heads.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: No, no, no. That was done in a friendly manner. Only things such as perhaps, Marco at State Department, where they have very confidential things, or the FBI where they're working on confidential things. And they don't mean that in any way combatively with Elon. They're just saying there are some people that you don't want to really have them tell you what they're working on last week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That's what we heard from the President today, around launch, inside the Oval Office.

It was around then, early this afternoon when we also heard from Trump's own government that clarified that email was all -- was optional, potentially because of the national security concerns that you heard the President cite there that got in the way.

Look at what the Department of Health and Human Services warned to its employees, saying, if they did respond, again, given this was voluntary, that they should, quote, "Assume that what you write will be read by malign foreign actors and tailor your response accordingly."

Then tonight, we heard from Musk on social media, who said this. Subject to the discretion of the President, they will be given another chance. Failure to respond a second time will result in termination.

[21:05:00]

Now, all of this has begged the question about who is exactly in charge here, who federal employees should be listening to when it comes to Trump. Elon Musk? Cabinet secretaries?

That seemed to be the same question that a federal judge had today, when they were grilling a Justice Department attorney who couldn't say who the, quote, Administrator of DOGE is.

The judge here was asking, quote, Where is Mr. Musk in all of this? At this point, you can't tell me what role he has. A DOJ attorney who was in that courtroom responded, and said, He is an adviser to the president.

She asked, Is there an administrator of USDS at the present time. That is the agency that they turned into what is now known as DOGE. The attorney responded, quote, I don't know the answer.

The judge then encouraged the rest of the lawyers, at the counsels' table, to speak up if they knew. None said they did.

My lead source tonight is veteran journalist, and historian, Garrett Graff.

And Garrett, it's great to have you.

Because I just think if you are this federal worker, and you're hearing what the President said in the Oval, you're seeing what Elon Musk is saying tonight on Twitter, and this email telling you that this is voluntary. The question is, what you do, going from there?

GARRETT GRAFF, JOURNALIST & HISTORIAN, AUTHOR, "WATERGATE: A NEW HISTORY": Yes. And I think one of the things that's been interesting is it's taken the federal agencies, a while, to clarify that this email is, in fact, voluntary.

But one of the things remember, when Elon Musk sort of first emailed the entire federal workforce, a couple of weeks ago, it forced OPM to put out a privacy impact statement that made clear that all emails from Elon Musk, to the federal workforce, are voluntary, and that there is no adverse action that will be taken for people who do not comply with them or do not respond to them.

And what I think you really saw a lot over the last 48, 72 hours, as this particular controversy has played out, is this divide between Elon Musk and the national security establishment.

That it is clear that you have the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, the Justice Department, the Pentagon, all saying, No, no, no, we're the people who manage our own workforces. You don't get to decide who works for us, and who actually is doing jobs that we want done.

And to me, that's going to be a very interesting, I think, sort of potential fracture in this weird power-sharing agreement that Trump and Musk and the various cabinet departments have appeared to settle into, over the last couple of weeks.

COLLINS: Yes, that was the question given, you know, we have not seen Cabinet Secretaries come out and openly, say, You don't actually have to do this. And this isn't, you know -- these are all people like Pam Bondi, Kash Patel, I mean real Trump loyalists that are saying, that this caused a lot of confusion for them, about whether or not to respond.

And on that HHS email, when they said that anything that they -- that they could send of Hey, here's what I did this week, that it could be read by a malign foreign actor. What do you think is the biggest risk here, in terms of emailing out that information, if you're answering the email genuinely and earnestly?

GRAFF: I think that there are a couple of different sort of sets of concerns here.

One is what people might actually say in the email. The original email from DOGE, from OPM said, Don't send any classified information in here. But there's a lot of activity that someone who is reading these emails, could actually discern, to be classified and sensitive, even if it's not technically classified.

Secondly, though you have just who is replying to this. Are there people who were receiving this email, or are replying to it, who are in jobs in one part of the government, but are saying that they are doing a different type of job, different type of work. I mean, are these people in sort of undercover positions, elsewhere, in government? So that's a sensitive set of concerns.

And then I think the third, and just the strangest bit of all of this, is this technical disconnect, where Elon Musk has set up authority for himself to email the entire federal workforce, apparently without coordination with the cabinet departments, and without having, seemingly to have to authorize those communications to the federal workforce with anyone in advance.

[21:10:00]

I mean, that alone is sort of a stunning set of phishing concerns from a cybersecurity standpoint. I mean, if employees just sort of start getting these emails from hr@opm.gov, if it says, Click on this link or you will be fired by midnight? That's like the most basic set of phishing cybersecurity pests that any company in the world is trying to erase.

COLLINS: Yes, it's a great point there. Garrett Graff, great to have you. Thank you so much for that.

Also joining me tonight are my political sources.

We have Democratic strategist, Ameshia Cross.

National Review Editor, Ramesh Ponnuru. And a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.

All here with us.

Ramesh, what do you make of the fact that this has kind of gone back and forth. I thought it was really notable in the Oval, when Trump stood by Elon Musk. Elon Musk seemed to also think that, because he tweeted out that comment, and shared it pretty quickly after it was made.

But now, Musk is saying tonight that a second email could be on the way at Trump's discretion.

RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, it's just pretty simple. These -- responding to these emails is voluntary, but it's also mandatory. And if you don't do it, you might just get semi-fired, and you may or may not exist. I don't -- I don't know why people--

COLLINS: But what is semi-fired?

PONNURU: --are so confused?

COLLINS: That was quite confusing.

PONNURU: I mean, semi-fired. And we've all been semi-fired from time to time.

Look, this administration talks much more than most administrations about a unitary executive. The executive has one will, speaks with one voice, but it acts like it's completely disorganized mess. And we're seeing that inaction. We saw it in the first administration. Up until recently, we hadn't seen that level of disorganization from this administration. But now, we're beginning to see it.

COLLINS: Yes, and we've heard a lot of people say, Give DOGE a chance. The federal government is bloated. It is way too large. Let them try to make this work.

But I think the criticism that some people were noting was, it supposed to make government more efficient. The chaos from this, and how this, was leaving Cabinet Secretaries even in the lurch, was not efficiency. It was inefficiency.

AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Oh, absolutely. And I think it was inefficient. It was confusing. It is taking a sledgehammer. It is not really paying attention to how government actually works.

And the problem with somebody being in charge of government efficiency, who has never actually worked in government, who has never been in any of these agencies, who has never held an elected office, is that the basic functions of what it takes to get anything done, he is going around. And he's not -- and he's going around it, but also not being informed by the people who do this work every day.

So, I think that it's a very stark contrast when we hear from department or agency heads who are speaking out, because that is even in stark contrast to what's happening in Congress. Because Congress thus far, has not said anything extremely substantial, when it comes to leveraging any level of pushback.

And I think that it can be said that across multiple sides of the political spectrum, people want to see government more efficient. They want to get rid of certain levels of red tape. They want the bureaucracy to work.

However, we've seen certain changes before. The Clinton administration did this, but they did it in the right way. They went through Congress. They did not shake everything up, see what breaks, and then try to figure it out, years later and down the line.

What we're seeing, right now, is that DOGE doesn't really have a plan. The plan is to get rid of as many federal workers as possible, without any real understanding of the systems that are going to be affected, and honestly, no real concern.

COLLINS: Well, and that's why the judge grilling the DOJ lawyer today, about what is his title, or who actually is in charge, that could actually have a huge impact on the lawsuits that a lot of these fired federal workers are bringing in court.

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: It absolutely could. I mean, it's remarkable to me that you see the federal judges basically going down the line, asking each Justice Department lawyer, Do you know who is in charge? Do you know who is -- if anyone knows, speak up.

I also can't get over the fact that you have Kash Patel, who is not exactly known for being a defender of the bureaucracy, basically said, Hey, pump the brakes here a bit, Elon. We can't just fire all the FBI lawyers for not completing the five-step list.

I think what we're seeing here is, look, Elon Musk obviously has vast experience in the private sector. And tech companies, often, I am sure, send out emails to people, saying, Look, we need to slim down. Justify your job, why do you have it.

But it doesn't quite map on perfectly to the federal government, which is the most sprawling bureaucracy you can imagine. There are laws in place that prevent you from summarily terminating federal employees.

So, I think this is just the first of what, in all likelihood, is going to be a long line of skirmishes and battles, over Musk and Trump trying to downsize the federal workforce, and just getting a huge amount of pushback from the bureaucracy itself.

PONNURU: And just to underline the point. Karoline Leavitt, the White House press secretary, put out a statement saying that everybody in the administration is working as one unified team under the direction of the President.

There is only one circumstance in which a White House press secretary puts out that statement, and that is when it is manifestly untrue. COLLINS: Well, and with Elon Musk himself, we saw this -- someone hacked into the videos, at HUD today, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and they had this AI-generated video of Trump -- we have a picture of it, I believe -- Trump kissing Elon Musk's feet. Obviously it's not real. But the message across it says, Long Live The Real King.

And The New York Times reported tonight that leaders of the department could not immediately identify how they had been hacked to display those images. They ended up just unplugging several devices to basically turn it off.

CROSS: Yes, this is going to be a messy divorce, whenever it occurs, between Elon and Trump.

[21:15:00]

But at the end of the day, people are seeing that when you break things, this administration isn't trying to fix them. They're breaking things really quickly. And Trump is saying one thing, to Republican leaders in Congress, and saying something entirely differently on Truth Social, and to Elon Musk.

Because, they recognize midterms are right around the corner. And at the end of the day, these town halls that district members are showing up to every single day, at this point, they're raising the ire.

We're seeing that Trump's approval rating is going down. It doesn't matter what Elon Musk approval rating is. He's not an elected official. However, it does matter how individuals on the ground view this administration. And in plus-17, plus-18 Republican districts, people are getting really angry, really fast.

COLLINS: Yes, well, I'm glad you brought that up, because we're going to talk about that coming up.

Everybody, thank you so much.

The subject of Musk and federal firings was front and center at a town hall, as we just talked about. Some Republican lawmakers, including my next source, went on defense, and answered the questions, this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARK ALFORD (R-MO): Elon Musk does have a security clearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he doesn't--

AUDIENCE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:20:00] COLLINS: As President Trump and Elon Musk work to slash the federal government, and some Republicans are weighing cuts, to programs like Medicaid in their budget bill. Lawmakers returned home in recent days, for the first recess since Trump took office.

And a coffee shop, in Missouri today, became the latest spot where voters voiced their concerns about all of that to their elected representative, face-to-face.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALFORD: Her question was, will I support not cutting Medicaid?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medicare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Medicare.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want--

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: No, she said Medicaid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neither. Neither.

ALFORD: Government is not immune to layoffs.

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: Elon Musk does have a security clearance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, he doesn't--

AUDIENCE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight is the congressman you saw there, at his meeting with constituents this morning. Republican Mark Alford.

And first off, I hope you had a cup of coffee before that started this morning.

ALFORD: I did. We had to cut people off. I think they had too much caffeine.

COLLINS: You normally do these meetings, and you say you have like five to 10 people show up.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: This was a 150 people, I believe. Were you surprised by the level of frustration that you heard?

ALFORD: I would like to say that I was.

And first, thank you for having me on, Kaitlan.

Look, we've done 90 of these, since I've been in office. I'm a sophomore. I've been in office for two years and a couple of months now. And I love going out and talking to folks in our district. I love having one-on-one conversations. That's how we get things done.

I welcome people who don't agree with me, so that I can try to win them over, hear their concerns. I represent 772,047 individuals, Republicans, Democrats, independents, politically-agnostic. I want to hear their ideas. And that's what we do, usually, at Mondays with Mark. Before I fly back to Washington, we have discussions.

This was brought about outside agitators, and some people from outside our district, not our constituents, who came there to make their voices heard. And I respect that. They have every right to be there. We did not prohibit them, even though they did not live in our district.

But I really wanted to hear from our constituents. That's who sent me to Congress. And that's who I owe, really, my service to. And they were not really able to be heard.

Some of them were there, who had worked for the IRS, and were getting laid off in Kansas City. And I really wanted to hear their concerns, and let's work together about how can we find you the next job? There are thousands of jobs, a 150,000 -- a 175,000 jobs, right now, available in Missouri.

COLLINS: You say, outside agitators. Are you saying that none of them were your constituents that were there?

ALFORD: No, no, no, no, I -- some were. I went -- and let me make that very clear. Some were our constituents. They clearly were not on -- aligned with my way of thinking, and they did not vote for Trump.

COLLINS: Well from those constituents--

ALFORD: But that's OK. I don't -- I wanted to hear from them.

COLLINS: Yes, as you said you--

ALFORD: And hear their concerns.

COLLINS: You represent Democrats as well.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: And you are the elected official.

And some of the concerns we've heard are about Elon Musk and the DOGE effort on slashing those jobs at the IRS or other agencies.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: I know you've got a lot of federal workers in your state.

What do you say to them about how it's being executed? We just talked about the email they got over the weekend.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: Do you think maybe there should be more compassion in how it's being handled?

ALFORD: Look, I think I'm a -- came from the communication industry. I was a television anchor, in Kansas City, for many years. And so, I am big on communicating. I think that's important, whether it's in your marriage, or your business.

I met a guy at the airport today, who works for the FDIC, and he was flying up to New York City. He was quite upset, he was going to have to lay people off. And we talked to -- he was very angry. I mean, I said, Let's just talk about this. What can we do better?

He says, We've got -- you guys got to communicate better, because it's chaos.

And what I told him, Kaitlan is, I said, Look, this is a ship that's headed towards a reef. And if we hit this reef, because of our $36 trillion in debt, if we do not turn that ship away from the reef, we are all going to be sunk. And when a ship is headed towards a reef, there is chaos on the deck. I am glad that we have Donald J. Trump behind the helm that is steering that boat, along with Elon Musk.

But yes, there's chaos. But we, conservatives and members of Congress, must do the best we can--

COLLINS: But you think--

ALFORD: --with the information we have.

COLLINS: You think it could be communicated better?

ALFORD: Look, I am always about information, as you are, being in the communications business. As soon as I get information from the White House, or from any sector in the agencies, we will relay that to.

I am implementing a new program on our -- I told our communications director. We're going to start trying to put out daily bulletins on our website with the latest information that we have.

[21:25:00]

COLLINS: But secondly, sometimes that information changes, like with the email over the weekend--

ALFORD: Yes, it does.

COLLINS: --where now they were told, they didn't have to reply. They did. But in terms of how this is happening. And I don't think anyone would argue or would disagree that the federal government is too big and bloated. But in terms of how you slim it down, don't you feel that you, as a member of Congress, should have a say in that? Because what they're slashing, and what they're cutting, is money that you already appropriated.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: It's already -- it's not -- you know, they talk about fraud. None of it's fraud. Maybe you don't like how it's being spent. But they say it's fraudulent. But it was appropriated by your body.

ALFORD: Right. And I'm newest member on the Appropriations Committee. I'm going to take that very seriously. I am on a subcommittee that oversees USAID, before I think it's going to be moved to the State Department.

We've got to make sure that programs like that have to do with national security, moving forward. I want to rename them National Security Investment projects, to where we're making sure that our taxpayer dollars are put into programs, specifically for our national defense.

But yes, I want to make sure that we're doing our job. But I am not the Chief Executive. The Chief Executive of the United States of America is Donald J. Trump, and he has the authority to appoint whomever he wants to help get this done. He has appointed Elon Musk, and those working under him, to right this ship.

COLLINS: Of course. But it is money that Congress has appropriated. I think that's the question, and if Congress will pass another CR. We're talking about spending right now.

The other question you got was about Medicaid.

ALFORD: Yes.

COLLINS: At the town hall, this morning, the coffee.

When it comes to Medicaid, some of your colleagues are considering cutting Medicaid, in order to pass your budget blueprint, to get the tax cuts done again, and to get Trump's other legislative priorities.

Would you vote for a bill that includes cuts to Medicaid?

ALFORD: I will vote for a bill, tomorrow, that has savings for Medicaid. And I'll tell you the difference. This is just not a nuanced position.

There is waste, abuse, and fraud, in Medicaid. We are finding out, through DOGE, and through the access to this data, that there is waste, abuse, and fraud, in just about every government program. We knew that. I don't think we wanted to admit that it was this bad. But in the Medicaid system, we've got to make sure that that's eliminated. And then we also have to make sure that able-bodied adults with no dependent children are not on Medicaid. And right now, the system says that there are. I think the savings are to be found there. But we can--

COLLINS: So, you do want changes to Medicaid, and you will vote for that?

ALFORD: I want changes. But I'm not going to throw granny off the cliff, and people who really need Medicaid, and depend upon that for their health--

COLLINS: But can you--

ALFORD: --and survivability.

COLLINS: You've been in Congress for two years. If there is fraud in Medicaid, why have we not heard anything from House Republicans about that, for the last two years?

ALFORD: Look, I'm not on Energy and Commerce, which -- or Ways and Means.

COLLINS: Which is tasked with coming up with $880 billion--

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: --in cuts, as you know.

ALFORD: And I--

COLLINS: Which a lot of people are worried that's more than just the reforms that you're talking about--

(CROSSTALK)

ALFORD: Kaitlan, I'm not making excuses. We need to do a better job. And I think every chair is charged now. This is serious business we're talking about. And that's why I went in and faced the people who don't want me in office, and some who wanted, I think, to do me harm. That's why we had a SWAT team and many police there. And I can take that.

But I take this serious, because this is the survival of our nation. And I don't think people understand what a severe point we are. We are gaining over a trillion dollars in interest, every year. That's more than we spend on our national defense. 75 percent of our spending in America is spent on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

COLLINS: But I think some people may say, they have real concerns that Republicans are going to cut Medicaid, and that there are going to be people who lose their benefits, not just the people that you're talking about there, or -- you said that there is waste and abuse in it.

ALFORD: Right.

COLLINS: We haven't seen any examples of fraud produced on Medicaid itself.

But how do you tell people that when you vote for that tomorrow, and vote yes, that it won't mean they have real cuts in Medicaid?

ALFORD: So, Kaitlan, tomorrow, what we'll be voting on, and I hope it gets on the floor, I will be voting yes, is simply a -- it gets us on the dance floor, this budget resolution. Nothing is going to be in fine print. That happens in the reconciliation process.

So, the House votes on our budget, the Senate on theirs, and then, just like "Schoolhouse Rock," we come together in a conference, and reconcile like you would reconcile your checkbook. And in that, we are going to have the details of exactly how that plays out. And there may be some people, at that point, who don't like what is in that reconciliation package. But we got to get on the dance floor.

COLLINS: Once we have a better look at that, we'll have you back, Congressman.

ALFORD: Please do.

COLLINS: Thank you.

ALFORD: Thank you.

COLLINS: Thank you for your time tonight. And good luck with that reconciliation process.

ALFORD: Thank you.

COLLINS: It may not be very peaceful.

Up next. Two world leaders, two very different messages that we heard today. It's the third anniversary of Russia invading Ukraine. There was a remarkable moment, in the Oval Office, when the French president jumped in to correct President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.

EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE: No, in fact, to be -- to be frank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: On this, the third anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we watched in New York, this morning, as the United States, at the United Nations, stood firmly on the same side as the Kremlin, against a resolution calling out Moscow's aggression and demanding an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops. At the same time, in Washington, in the East Room at the White House, we watched as a delicate new reality of American relations with European allies was on full display, as President Trump welcomed French president, Emmanuel Macron, and the attempts to be friendly were juxtaposed by an extraordinary moment, in the Oval Office, when the French president fact-checked the U.S. president, in real-time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Just so you understand, Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back.

[21:35:00]

MACRON: No, in fact, to be -- to be frank, we paid. We paid 60 percent of the total default. And it was--

TRUMP: Oh (ph).

MACRON: --like the U.S., loans guarantee, grants, and we provided real money, to be clear.

TRUMP: Yes (ph).

MACRON: We have 230 billion frozen assets in Europe -- Russian assets. But this is not as a collateral of a loan because this is not our belonging. So, they are frozen. If at the end of the day in the negotiation we will have with Russia, they're ready to give -- to give it to us? Super. It will be loan at the end of the day, and Russia would have paid for that. This is my wish.

TRUMP: If you believe that, it's OK with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President--

TRUMP: They get their money back. We don't. And now we do. But, you know, that's only fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My next source has represented the U.S. at the United Nations, and also been in the room with Trump and Putin at the same time, when he was the National Security Adviser.

The former Ambassador, John Bolton, joins me now.

And Ambassador, I mean, you could see Trump's face in that moment, as the French president was saying that they're not getting paid back for the money that they've provided to Ukraine. He also said, though, next to him, that -- made a point of saying, Russia is the aggressor.

What did you make of that exchange?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, I think it's Macron trying to maintain his own position without pushing Trump over the edge, and losing any chance of bringing Trump back to reality. I don't think that Macron will succeed. Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister of Great Britain is coming this week as well. I don't think he'll succeed.

I think we are now close to -- as close to Russia as an ally we've ever been in a hostile environment. It's a huge embarrassment.

But I think most significant of all is that vote in the U.N. today was a clear marker, we are on the path out of NATO. Trump has already done enormous damage to the NATO alliance. Almost every time he talks about Ukraine, he does more.

But that vote, with all of our allies on one side, supporting Ukraine and condemning Russia's unprovoked aggression against Ukraine? With us on the side of Russia and North Korea and countries like that? That shows the NATO alliance is badly split already. And it's at this point, you take too many more steps like that, the actual withdrawal is just a formality.

COLLINS: Did you ever think you'd see a vote like that, that did put the U.S. on the same side as Russia, North Korea, Belarus? I mean, all these other Moscow-friendly nations?

BOLTON: Well, there are a lot of strange votes at the United Nations that I participated in. It wasn't so much the vote itself, as the fact we are aligned with what has always been NATO's principal threat. There have been other threats. We benefited from the Alliance when al Qaeda attacked us on September the 11th.

But I would say, 95-percent-plus of NATO's planning during the Cold War, and since then, has been concerned about a Russian attack. That is the fundamental motivating factor, why the alliance was created and why it still exists today. And we have sided now, in this vote, with NATO's principal adversary. It's just unthinkable that a president could do that.

COLLINS: Do you believe when Trump would not call Putin a dictator earlier. Is that a negotiating strategy? Or do you think he just doesn't think he is one?

BOLTON: Look, Trump's defenders say everything he says is a negotiating strategy, including when he says A, and the next day he says, Not A. It's all just a negotiating strategy. I think it's an indication his mind is full of mush, and he says, whatever comes into it.

He believes Vladimir Putin is his friend. And you don't call your friends, dictators. He doesn't like Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He hasn't liked him since the perfect phone call of the summer of 2018. So, it's no sweat off his back to go ahead and call Zelenskyy, a dictator. This is somebody who is not fit to be president. He can't tell America's friends from its enemies.

COLLINS: On that note. He obviously is the President and is the Commander-in-Chief. And on Friday, he fired the Joint Chiefs Chairman, General CQ Brown, and instead said that he wants to replace him with a retired three-star Air Force General. His name is Dan Caine. They met in Iraq, six years ago, when Trump was last in office.

You were actually there on that visit, and write about this in your book. Is the way that Trump portrays that relationship, because he does talk about him a lot, is it what you witnessed?

BOLTON: Absolutely not. Trump has made up events that didn't happen.

[21:40:00]

We were on the ground in Iraq, I don't know, maybe three hours total. And I was either with Trump every minute of that time on the ground, or in one occasion when he and Mrs. Trump went off to meet some of the service members there. I was actually with Caine and General LaCamera, who was the overall commander, as we were writing up the press release about what happened in the meeting.

So, there was no chance that Trump had a conversation with General Caine that bore any resemblance to what he's described. I never saw Caine wear a MAGA hat.

The President addressed the service members there at the Al-Asad base. Got a very enthusiastic welcome, a lot of young men and women seeing their Commander-in-Chief, really, a very inspiring thing.

I didn't see any MAGA hats in that crowd either, because most of them were in uniform. They're in a base in a hostile environment. And you don't wear civilian accessories, when you're dressed in uniform. And one of the commanders could not have done that and ever expected to get any respect from his subordinates, when they did that.

So, I didn't see it. I don't believe it. And I think it's standard Trump. He makes up the world as he wants it to be, and then his followers, unfortunately, believe him.

COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for your time tonight.

BOLTON: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next. My next source once had the job that President Trump has just given to a right-wing podcaster. This is the new Deputy Director of the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN BONGINO, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PICK FOR FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Power. That is all that matters.

No, it doesn't, Dan. We have a system of checks and balances.

(LAUGHTER)

BONGINO: That's a good one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: President Trump has selected someone to be the next Deputy Director of the FBI, who has called the Bureau, the Deep State, posted that, quote, "The FBI is no longer a law enforcement entity. It is an" opposition "research firm for Democrats."

And who also said this, after that search was executed at Trump's Mar- a-Lago Club, after he refused to hand over classified documents following a subpoena.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: The FBI is lost. It's broken, irredeemably corrupt at this point. The inexcusable raid on President Trump's home was the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean it when I say it. It's way past time to clean this FBI house up. They have burned every last shred of faith and trust freedom-loving Americans had in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Judge signed off on that search warrant, I should remind everyone.

That is Dan Bongino though, that you heard from there. He worked for the New York Police Department in the 90s, before spending just over a decade inside the Secret Service. From there, he unsuccessfully ran for Congress, three times, in two states. But he turned those political defeats into a career, in MAGA punditry, on the radio, on a podcast, and on Fox News.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan joins me now.

And Donie, I just want people to kind of listen to how Dan Bongino has used his platform, what he has said previously.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: This fight's coming to your front door, to every single person watching, I am not kidding.

We need to call the Democrats out for what they are. They're either one of a couple things here. Either they're the dumbest people on Planet Earth, which I don't -- I don't believe. I'd love to say that, but it's not true. Or they're deliberately destroying America's cities. Option two is more frightening, because they know -- they're not stupid.

You can take your mask mandate and shove it right up your (bleep).

This is clearly a mechanism to control our people, because you're caving to some politically-correct narrative de jure.

We had an election with unbelievably suspect behavior.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Donie, what can you tell us about just Dan Bongino, the reach he has, what that looks like and what the FBI should be preparing for?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Bongino really has huge reach.

I remember, just before the election, for a story I did, a day living in the MAGA media universe, only watching sort of MAGA media outlets and Bongino is omnipresent there. He's across every platform.

He has, I think, more than 6 million followers on X, around the same on Facebook. He was -- he was banned permanently from YouTube for breaking their roles -- breaking their rules on COVID misinformation.

But I think what Bongino especially has really showed is just how well, in the post January 6 world, when a lot of people, including the now-President and then-President Trump, was suspended from major social media platforms, for quite some time.

Bongino has really thrived in this alternative space, especially on a video platform, Rumble, which is basically designed as a right-wing YouTube. He has millions of followers there, I think about 3 million. And all his videos where he streams live, every day, get more than a million views. So really has a huge audience, there.

One thing I do want to show, and I think we have a screenshot of it, is so much in this space, so much in this sort of MAGA universe, is about selling the idea of doomsday.

And this is something that is still live right now. So The Unthinkable Is Happening. And you can buy a three-month emergency food supply kit from Dan Bongino, I think it is, I'm looking at it here. It's about $600 for a three-month supply, Kaitlan, if you're feeling hungry.

But, look, I mean, this is a central part to all of this, which makes it almost so surreal that these guys have such a prominent role in government now, is for years, they have been selling the idea that government tyranny, that people need to be prepared for doomsday. And now they're in, running the place.

COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan, thank you so much.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks.

COLLINS: Up next. I want to talk about how Dan Bongino himself has described the work that he has done, besides selling the emergency prepared food that Donie talked about there, in recent years.

[21:50:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONGINO: And I mean it. I'd be lying to you, otherwise. My entire life right now is about owning the libs. That's it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: My inside source held the role of Deputy Director longer than anyone else, and also is someone that Trump once considered to run the FBI.

John Pistole joins me now.

And it's great to have you here.

As you know, this is an enormous job. Do you have concerns about the selection of Dan Bongino, and the responsibilities that he's about to have tonight?

JOHN PISTOLE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, I think you've hit it right on the head, Kaitlan, in terms of the responsibility, as I look at it as the three Rs.

So, we have the Rhetoric that we've heard for a while now.

And then we have the Reality of who the FBI is, the people, the men and women who do the hard work every day and what the mission is, and all those work -- all that work that's being done in the national security realm and the traditional criminal investigative realm.

And then we have the Responsibility.

So now we have Director Patel, and the new Deputy Director, who are responsible for all the actions of the FBI, to make sure that the men and women of the FBI are working effectively and efficiently, to accomplish the goals that the American people expect them to do.

And that is to keep them safe, whether it's from domestic threats or foreign threats, and whether that's terrorism, whether that's foreign counterintelligence, espionage, whether that's major cyberthreats, whether it's any of the -- all of the -- corporate frauds, and public corruption, all those things that are, frankly, in question now, based on what the new rules of the road are for the FBI, given this leadership with little to no background, in terms of how to run the FBI.

COLLINS: Well, and on that front, this is someone who had experience in the NYPD, in the Secret Service, but not in the FBI before. Obviously, neither did Kash Patel.

And according to the FBI Agents Association, shortly before Trump announced this, Patel, who is now the confirmed FBI director, agreed, they said privately, that his deputy should be a career FBI agent, as you know is the tradition.

What does it mean if it's not someone who does have that experience?

PISTOLE: Well, the Deputy Director -- and as was mentioned, I served in that role for almost six years, and it's something that the Deputy Director have, I believe, needs to have experience on the street as a street agent, and then in supervisory levels, and then moving up with increasing responsibilities. Because then, you understand the subtleties and nuances of what the FBI can and cannot do, in terms of investigations, while protecting privacy, civil liberties, things that most Americans still hope for, and believe that that is to be happening by their federal government.

And so, for the FBI to have somebody with none of that experience is concerning, I think, to the FBI Agents Association, and then to all those who are looking to the FBI, to do those things that protect them, while also protecting their civil liberties and privacy.

So, that's that dynamic tension that you hear people talk about sometimes, and as some of my colleagues have talked about. The hope by many of the retired agents, former agents, and even the current workforce, is that the treatment doesn't kill the patient.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what this looks like. Obviously, it's not a Senate-confirmed position, so he will be installed in that role.

John Pistole, great to have your perspective, as always. Thank you.

PISTOLE: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. The White House is declaring victory, tonight, when it comes to an attempt to ban one news outlet. We'll take you inside the press conference today, and what happened in there.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: An update on an important story that we have been following here, at THE SOURCE.

Today, a federal judge denied a request from The Associated Press, to immediately restore its access to President Trump's events, including in the Oval Office, and on Air Force One, where The Associated Press has typically always been.

The Administration recently banned the AP over its decision to continue using the phrase, Gulf of Mexico, after Trump declared the body of water, the Gulf of America.

The White House took a victory lap after that ruling from the judge today, including posting the word, Victory, as you can see here, over the Gulf, inside the White House briefing room, in these two pictures.

But this battle is very much still ongoing tonight. The judge has scheduled a hearing for next month, to hear arguments over the AP lawsuit for access to the President.

The judge, who I should note, was appointed by President Trump in his last term in office, at times, appeared somewhat skeptical about the legality of this ban, describing it at one point as, quote, Discriminatory, and at another point, as, Problematic.

The Associated Press reporter, from the United States, was not allowed in today's press conference that we had with the French president, Emmanuel Macron. But their French reporter, from the French press corps, was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Yes, for the President, please.

SYLVIE CORBET, ASSOCIATED PRESS REPORTER BASED IN PARIS: Thank you. Sylvie Corbet. I'm AP correspondent based in Paris. Question for both of you actually.

Mr. Macron, you were one of the last Western leaders to speak to Putin before Ukraine's invasion. What advice, what recommendation could you make to President Trump to make sure that this time, you can get strong enough guarantees -- sorry -- from Putin, to get a peace deal that lasts this time.

And Mr. President Trump, what makes you think you can trust Putin in those negotiations?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:00:00]

COLLINS: Both leaders answered that question.

And according to a pool report that we got after the press conference had ended, we learned that the French press corps decided, among themselves, that the Paris-based AP reporter would be the first one to ask their first question.

Thank you so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.