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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Accuses Zelenskyy Of "Gambling With World War III"; Rubio Blasts Zelenskyy, Defends Trump After Oval Office Clash; Bolton: Trump-Zelenskyy Clash A "Disaster" For The U.S. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 28, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: An update now from the Vatican. 88-year-old Pope Francis is on a breathing machine after his respiratory condition worsened. The Vatican says his prognosis is quote, Guarded. The pontiff has been battling double pneumonia for two weeks now, in the hospital. Outside the Vatican, worshipers have gathered now to pray for him.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
The most astonishing moment I've ever witnessed inside the Oval Office, with ramifications far beyond Washington. I'll take you inside the two-on-one shouting match between President Trump, Vice President Vance, and Ukrainian president Zelenskyy. As tonight, there are demands for an apology, and even the suggestion of a resignation, coming from Trump's top allies.
Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, will join me, for an exclusive interview.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
A critical meeting that was expected to end with a signing ceremony, and a potential path towards a peace deal, devolved into a furious shouting match that instead ended with the Ukrainian president being abruptly told to leave the White House, climbing into his armored vehicle as his lunch was going cold in the West Wing hallway.
The East Room of the White House, where a press conference between the leaders of the United States and Ukraine was supposed to happen, was left empty. And that signing table where presidents Trump and Zelenskyy were expected to put ink on paper for that key minerals deal was too.
That's because just moments before, that deal, and the negotiations surrounding it, imploded, after a 40-minute meeting in the Oval Office that had been relatively cordial, until the final 10 minutes, when Vice President Vance stepped in, and said this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States' words mattered more than the president of the United States' actions.
What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: Can I ask you?
VANCE: Sure.
ZELENSKYY: Yes?
VANCE: Yes.
ZELENSKYY: OK. Som he occupied it, our parts. Big parts of Ukraine. Part of east and Crimea. So he occupied it on 2014. So during a lot of years, I'm not speaking about just Biden. But those times was Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now the President Trump. And God bless: Now President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people, you know.
What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you -- what do you mean?
VANCE: I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country.
ZELENSKYY: Yes. But if you are not--
VANCE: Mr. President, Mr. President, with respect. I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the frontlines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the President for trying to bring--
ZELENSKYY: Have you ever been -- have you ever been--
VANCE: --an end to this conflict.
ZELENSKYY: First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future. God bless--
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You don't -- you don't know that.
ZELENSKYY: God bless--
TRUMP: You don't know that.
ZELENSKYY: God bless, you will not have a war. TRUMP: Don't -- you got to -- don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not telling you. I'm answering on this question.
TRUMP: Because you're in no position to dictate that.
VANCE: That's exactly what he's doing.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not dictating.
TRUMP: Remember this: You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good.
ZELENSKYY: You will -- you will feel influence. I'm telling you.
TRUMP: We're going to feel very good and very strong.
ZELENSKYY: You will feel influence.
TRUMP: You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position.
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning -- from the very beginning of the war--
TRUMP: And he happens to be right about it.
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning of the war--
TRUMP: You're not in a good position.
ZELENSKYY: --I was--
TRUMP: You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not playing cards.
TRUMP: But right now, you don't have your playing cards..
ZELENSKYY: I'm very serious, Mr. President. I'm very serious.
TRUMP: You're playing cards.
ZELENSKYY: I'm the president in a war.
TRUMP: You're gambling with the lives of millions of people.
ZELENSKYY: You think--
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What you're -- what you're speaking about --
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What are you speaking about?
TRUMP: And what you're doing is very disrespectful -- disrespectful to the country, this country--
ZELENSKYY: I'm really respect your--
TRUMP: --that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have.
ZELENSKYY: I'm really respect--
VANCE: Have you said, Thank you, once, this entire meeting?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of times.
VANCE: No. In this entire meeting--
ZELENSKYY: Even today.
VANCE: --have you said, Thank you?
ZELENSKYY: Even today.
VANCE: You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October. Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America--
ZELENSKYY: What are you speaking about?
VANCE: --and the President who is trying to save your country.
ZELENSKYY: Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can--
TRUMP: He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble.
ZELENSKYY: Can I -- can I -- can I answer?
TRUMP: Wait a minute. No. No. You've done a lot of talking.
ZELENSKYY: Can I answer?
[21:05:00]
TRUMP: Your country is in big trouble.
ZELENSKYY: I know.
TRUMP: You're not winning.
ZELENSKYY: I know.
TRUMP: You're not winning this. ZELENSKYY: I--
TRUMP: You have a damn good chance of coming out--
ZELENSKYY: We are staying--
TRUMP: --OK because of us.
ZELENSKYY: Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone, and we are thankful. I said thanks--
TRUMP: You haven't been alone.
ZELENSKYY: --in this Cabinet--
TRUMP: You haven't been alone.
ZELENSKYY: --and not only in this Cabinet.
TRUMP: We gave you, through this stupid president--
ZELENSKYY: And I said thank you--
TRUMP: --$350 billion.
ZELENSKYY: You voted for your president.
TRUMP: We gave you military equipment--
ZELENSKYY: You voted for your president.
TRUMP: --and your men are brave, but they had to use our military.
ZELENSKYY: Yes. What about me asking--
TRUMP: If you didn't have our military equipment--
ZELENSKYY: You invited me--
TRUMP: If you didn't have--
ZELENSKYY: You invited me to speak.
TRUMP: --our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks, OK?
ZELENSKYY: In three days. I heard it from Putin: in three days.
TRUMP: Maybe less.
ZELENSKYY: This is something, in two weeks. Of course. Yes.
TRUMP: It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this. I tell you.
VANCE: Just say thank you. Accept--
ZELENSKYY: I said it a lot of times thank you--
VANCE: Accept that there are -- accept that--
ZELENSKYY: --to the American people.
VANCE: Accept that there are disagreements. And let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong.
TRUMP: But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on.
What are you saying?
REPORTER: --What if Russia, what if Putin breaks ceasefire?
VANCE: She's asking: What if Russia breaks the ceasefire?
TRUMP: And if they -- what if anything? What if a bomb drops on your head right now? OK?
REPORTER: But they have--
TRUMP: What if they broke it? I don't know, they broke it with Biden because Biden, they didn't respect him. They didn't respect Obama. They respect me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: That clash was nothing short of remarkable. The anger from the President there was palpable in the room. There's almost no precedent for what you just saw happening inside the Oval Office.
And I was in the room. It was completely silent, as Trump and Vance berated Zelenskyy, as they were questioning whether or not he had expressed enough gratitude for U.S. aid to his country. It left us with one question for Trump, as the press was being ushered out of that room.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Can you still negotiate given that?
TRUMP: We'll see. I don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That answer turned out to be a hard-no. There were no more negotiations that happened this afternoon at the White House.
I was told that Trump huddled with his key advisers, right after that, and ultimately decided, according to a White House a White House official, that Zelenskyy was, quote, Not in a place to negotiate. He then directed his Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, who was there seated next to Vice President Vance, and his National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, to deliver the message that it was time for Zelenskyy to leave.
The Ukrainians had wanted to stay, I was told, and continue the talks, but they were told, no.
Tonight, both Trump and Zelenskyy are refusing to back down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I would say it didn't work out exactly great. From his standpoint, I think he very much overplayed his hand.
I'm just telling you. You saw what I saw today. That was not a man that wanted to make peace. And I'm only interested if he wants to end the bloodshed.
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: Do you think you owe an apology to President Trump?
ZELENSKYY: I'm thankful to President Trump and to Congress, bipartisan support, and I was always very thankful from all our people.
BAIER: So, I'm not hearing from you, Mr. President, a thought that you owe the president an apology.
ZELENSKYY: No. I respect President. And I respect American people. And if, I don't know, if -- I think that we have to be very open and very honest, and I'm not sure that we did something bad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And my source tonight is the Secretary of State, who was in that room today, Marco Rubio.
Thank you so much, Secretary Rubio, for being here.
We just heard from President Zelenskyy. He said he does not think that he owes President Trump an apology for what happened inside the Oval Office today. Do you feel otherwise?
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I do. I do. Because you guys don't see -- you guys only saw the end. You saw what happened today. You don't see all the things that led up to this. So let me explain.
The President's been very clear. He campaigned on this. He thinks this war should have never started. He believes, and I agree, that had he been president, it never would have happened. Now here we are. He's trying to bring an end to this conflict.
We've explained very clearly what our plan is here, which is, we want to get the Russians to a negotiating table. We want to explore whether peace is possible. They understand this.
They also understand that this agreement that was supposed to be signed today was supposed to be an agreement that binds America economically to Ukraine, which to me, as I've explained and I think the President alluded to today, is a security guarantee in its own way, because we're involved. It's now us, it's our interests.
That was all explained. That was all understood. And nonetheless, for the last 10 days, in every engagement we've had with the Ukrainians, there's been complications in getting that point across, including the public statements that President Zelenskyy has made.
But they insisted on coming to D.C. This agreement could have been signed five days ago. But they insisted on coming to Washington, and there was a very -- and should have been a very clear understanding, Don't come here and create a scenario, where you're going to start lecturing us about how diplomacy isn't going to work.
[21:10:00]
President Zelenskyy took it in that direction, and it ended in a predictable outcome as a result. It's unfortunate. That wasn't supposed to be this way, but that's the path he chose, and I think, frankly, sends his country backwards in regards to achieving peace, which is what President Trump wants at the end of the day, is for this war to end. He has been as consistent as anyone can be, about what his objective is here.
COLLINS: But what specifically do you want to see President Zelenskyy apologize for?
RUBIO: Well, apologize for turning this thing into the fiasco for him that it became.
There was no need for him to go in there and become antagonistic. Look, this thing went off the rails -- you were there, I believe. It went off the rails when he said, Let me ask you a question, to the Vice President, What kind of diplomacy are you talking about?
Well, these -- this is a serious thing. I mean, thousands of people have been killed, thousands. And he talks about all these horrible things that have happened to prisoners of war and children. All true, all bad. This is what we're dealing with here. It needs to come to an end. We are trying to bring it to an end. The way you bring it to an end is you get Russia to the table to talk. And he understands that.
Attacking Putin, no matter how anyone may feel about him, personally, forcing the President into a position, where you're trying to goad him into attacking Putin, calling him names, maximalist demands about Russia having to pay for the reconstruction, all the sorts of things that you talk about in a negotiation.
Well, when you start talking about that aggressively -- and the President's a dealmaker. He's made deals his entire life. You're not going to get people to the table. And so, you start to perceive that maybe Zelenskyy doesn't want a peace deal. He says he does, but maybe he doesn't.
And that active, open undermining of efforts to bring about peace is deeply frustrating, for everyone who's been involved in communications with them, leading up to today. And I think he should apologize--
COLLINS: But can I ask you--
RUBIO: --for wasting our time for a meeting that was going to end the way it did.
COLLINS: You yourself have said previously that Putin cannot be trusted in negotiations. That was the point that President Zelenskyy was ultimately making, during that conversation, is that there cannot be an agreement without security guarantees, because he was talking about all the ceasefire agreements before, or agreements that Putin has just blown past.
I mean, do you still feel that way, that Putin cannot be trusted in these negotiations?
RUBIO: Well, I was there, yesterday, when the President said in front of the media that our approach is going to be trust but verify.
Donald Trump has made -- President Trump has made deals his entire life. He's not going to get suckered into some deal that's not a real deal. We all understand this. We understand that on our end, for certain.
And so the goal here is to get to a place, we have to explore whether peace is possible. I've said this repeatedly. I don't know. I think it is, based on what they've said so far. But we have to explore that.
How else is this war going to end? I ask people, What is the European plan to end this war? I can tell you what one foreign minister told me, and I'm not going to say who it was, but I can tell you what one of them told me. And that is that the war goes on for another year, and at that point, Russia will feel so weakened that they'll beg for a peace. That's another year of killing, another year of dying, another year of destruction, and by the way, not a very realistic plan in my point of view.
So, if there's a chance of peace, even if it's a 1 percent chance, that needs to be explored, and that's what President Trump is trying to do here.
COLLINS: President Trump said, just when he was leaving the White House, after that meeting that he doesn't think President Zelenskyy wants peace. But isn't that why the Ukrainian leader was in the Oval Office, for that meeting today?
RUBIO: Well, he was in the Oval Office to sign a minerals rights deal. That's what he was in the Oval Office to sign today.
But again, when you have comments that deliberately -- appear to be deliberately -- I mean, after having discussed this repeatedly, deliberately appear to be geared towards making the argument that peace is not possible.
Again, I turn to the -- he turns to the Vice President, What kind of diplomacy are you talking about? Almost as if to say, These people, you can't deal with them. We can't -- you can't have any negotiations with Putin, because he can't be trusted, and you're just wasting your time on negotiations. Well, he's directly basically undermining everything the President has told him he's trying to do.
Look, there's no need for that. You start to suspect, Does he really want an end to this war? Does he just think that, we have to do whatever he says and give him anything he wants without any endgame? That was the Biden strategy.
That was the Biden strategy. We were funding a stalemate. We were funding a meatgrinder. And unfortunately, for the Ukrainians, the Russians have more meat to grind, and they don't care about human life. We've seen it. Human waves, the North Koreans, et cetera.
And so, this is a very complex thing. It's very delicate. It's very costly. It's very bloody.
COLLINS: When--
RUBIO: It needs to be brought to an end. But it isn't going to be brought to an end with public pronouncements and maximalist demands in the public, but in real diplomacy. The Vice President was right
COLLINS: When you say they don't care about life, you -- are you talking about the Russians or the Ukrainians?
RUBIO: Well, the Russians. I mean, they're conscripting by the hundreds of thousands. They've brought in North Korean troops--
COLLINS: OK. I just--
RUBIO: --that were slaughtered in Kursk. And they keep going, because they got more people. That's the other fact.
Look, and it's -- you know, again, we go back to the same point. I'm not going to fall into this trap of the who's bad and who's evil. People can make those conclusions. People have seen how this narrative has played out, and where we are today, and how this all started and so forth.
The point -- the point now is it has to end. And the way it ends is you get people to a negotiating table. And the President, who is the ultimate dealmaker, knows you don't get people to a negotiating table when you're calling them names, and you're accusing them of things.
[21:15:00]
Because at the end of the day, this is not a political campaign, OK? This is high-stakes international diplomacy, and an effort to bring about an end to a very, very dangerous war.
COLLINS: But you yourself, sir, have said before that you believe Putin is a war criminal, that that is a widely-accepted fact. You've called him a butcher, and you've said that, as a Secretary of State, you do believe it's important for someone with such global influence, as you have, to speak with that kind of moral clarity.
RUBIO: Yes. And, at this moment, as Secretary of State, my job, working for the President, is to deliver peace, to end this conflict and end this war. Ultimately, that is the job of the State Department. The State Department doesn't fight wars. It ends them. It tries to end them. And that's usually, by the way, celebrated.
I think, I mean, throughout history I've watched presidents that bring about an end to wars and conflicts, and people celebrate that. They applaud it. I think we should be very proud and happy that we have a President whose prime objective is not to get into wars, but to prevent wars and to get out of wars.
That is a very noble, laudable goal. Everyone should be applauding it. And he should be given the space to do that, not undermined by demands that he call Putin names, or that we say things that impede the ability to conduct real diplomacy, as the Vice President said today.
COLLINS: To follow up on what you just said a moment ago. Are you saying that you have doubts that President Zelenskyy wants this war to come to an end?
RUBIO: What I have doubts about is whether he's willing to say and do the things that we need, in order to get a negotiation.
Again, you've got -- this has been going on for 10 days. And to see things in the press saying, We're not coordinating with the Ukrainians. That's absolutely false.
Over the last 10 days, the Ukrainians have met with the Secretary of Commerce, the Secretary of State, the Vice President of the United States, had a phone call with President Trump, and he was in the Oval Office today. I've talked to the Foreign Minister of Ukraine, three times, in the last 10 days.
The argument that we're not engaging -- but yet, you keep reading these press accounts about, Oh, well, they're leaving us out, we're not involved, we're not engaged. None of these things are true. And it continues.
So, all that led up to today, and a deep sense of frustration. And my hope is that this all can be reset, and maturity can kick in, and some pragmatism. Because this war, tonight, people will die in Ukraine. Tonight, people will die in this conflict. We're trying to bring an end to this conflict, which is unsustainable.
It's an unsustainable, bloody war that has to come to an end. And right now, the only leader in the world that can even have a chance of bringing about an end to this is named President Donald Trump, and we need to give him the opportunity to try and do that.
And when you see efforts to impede it, when you -- when you tell someone don't say -- let's not talk about these things, let's not go in this direction because it makes it harder for us to engage, and they insist on doing it anyways? You start to wonder. You start to wonder. I don't like to impugn people's motives, but you start to wonder what's behind it.
So look, again, let's hope that this can be salvaged.
COLLINS: But can I ask you, Secretary Rubio--
RUBIO: But I'm not sure, after today.
COLLINS: You don't believe that this can be -- you're not sure that this can be salvaged? I mean, can this relationship between Zelenskyy and Trump be repaired, in your view?
RUBIO: I think anything is possible. But it has to go back to the point that President Trump is interested in being involved in this for the purposes of bringing about an enduring and lasting peace. That's what he wants to achieve.
And I think if I'm a country, OK, that's involved in a war with a bigger country, who's losing thousands of people, who's had 3 million people leave my country, because they can't be there, who is facing these challenges? I would be thanking a president who is trying to help bring about an end to this war. I would be thanking him. And I would be supportive of what he's trying to do, at least in my public pronouncements and in my public posture.
And we didn't see that today, and we haven't seen that for the last few days.
Now, will that change? I hope so. It should, for the -- for the purposes of global peace and stability in Europe, and around the world.
COLLINS: Vice President Vance was criticizing Zelenskyy for not saying thank you, specifically, during that meeting, those 40 to 50 minutes that we were in the Oval Office.
But certainly, you know very well, Secretary Rubio, your time as a senator, here in Washington, that whenever Zelenskyy has come to Washington before, he has very much expressed that kind of gratitude.
Just listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY: Thank you for both financial packages you have already provided us.
Really, all my appreciations from my heart, from the heart of Ukrainians, all Ukrainians.
So what can I say to American people in English? My English is poor. To say all my messages and all my thanks to you.
And thank you very much for supporting us, our people. ZELENSKYY (through translator): Thank you, United States. Thank you, America.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Ukraine is grateful to the United States for its overwhelming support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you think you can make the argument that he hasn't said thank you?
RUBIO: Well, I think the Vice President said he hadn't said it today, he hadn't heard it today in that meeting.
And we were hoping that that meeting would begin by: Thank you for everything you've done for us, we wouldn't be where we are today without you, we wouldn't even have a chance to negotiate a peace without the help you gave us. By the way, without the help you gave us when you were president in the first term, because President Obama refused to provide them defensive capabilities in terms of military hardware. He did provide them blankets--
COLLINS: Yes, and that was brought up today during that meeting.
RUBIO: --he did provide them humanitarian aid, but -- well, but -- it was brought up, but I was there.
[21:20:00]
In fact, I vividly recall at the time Vice President Biden saying to me in a meeting that we had at the Vice President's residence that the reason why we didn't want to provide them those weapons is because they might use them. That was his exact quote, and that was the attitude.
I remember clearly then, the Ukrainian leaders saying, We don't need more blankets or MREs, we need weapons to defend ourselves.
And they didn't do it. President Trump did. He provided them weaponry, some of it -- much of it -- which was used at the beginning of this war, and without those weapons being in their stocks, this war could have been over very quickly -- two, three, four days.
Another potshot that Zelenskyy took today -- when the President pointed that out, you know what Zelenskyy said? He said, Yes, yes, we've heard that from the Russians.
That's not a Russian narrative. That was the official position, OK, of the United States.
I vividly recall being briefed by leaders in the Biden administration, telling us that this war was going to be over in five to six days. They believed that. That was their assessment at the time. And it wasn't the case because of the weapons that Ukraine had in stocks because of President Trump in his first term. So he should have been grateful for that and grateful for what we're doing now. And one more point. It's not just President Trump. There's -- there's news reports out there from NBC News, at least is one of the places I recall, reporting that Biden had a shouting match with Zelenskyy for not being grateful and not being thankful for everything that was provided, back in 2022.
Now, that didn't happen in front of the press. That was leaked, but it got out there. It's had -- these frustrations are not unique to President Trump. There was those frustrations in the previous administration, if NBC News is to be believed.
COLLINS: Yes, right, but -- but obviously we've never seen anything like what we saw today.
But the point that Zelenskyy was making there is that everyone predicted his demise, and Ukraine was able to fight and to survive. Zelenskyy was able to survive; the Ukrainian people have been fighting for three years.
You yourself have said previously that the United States should assist Ukraine as long as the Ukrainians are willing to fight.
So I think the question coming out of that meeting is, What happens next here? I mean, you are the U.S. chief diplomat. Is there a path for diplomacy? Is a ceasefire still a possibility tonight?
RUBIO: Well, number one, you know who else said that Ukraine is very brave and very valiant? President Trump. He said it today. He said it repeatedly -- Your soldiers have been very brave, your fighters have been very brave, your people have been very brave. He said that repeatedly, and everyone recognizes that.
But we're three years into a war that has no end in sight and no exit strategy. The EU doesn't have an exit strategy. I saw the comments tonight from the leader of the EU saying that we need a new leader of the -- of the free world. I mean, these people are just playing silly games and saying these things.
What is their exit strategy? What is anybody else's exit strategy? The only person on the planet who is actively trying to bring an end to this conflict is named Donald Trump, the President of the United States. He's the only one that's trying to do it and we should be helping him to achieve it.
COLLINS: Can I ask you--
RUBIO: And so do I think it's possible? Yes, I hope it's possible, because that's what we do try to do at the Department of State, is we try to bring end to conflicts, not start new ones and certainly not extend them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Up next. Much more to come during that interview with Secretary Rubio, including whether or not he agrees with a suggestion from his former colleague, Senator Lindsey Graham, that Zelenskyy should resign.
Up next. We'll have a Democratic senator to respond as well.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: More now of my exclusive interview with Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, who was in that remarkable Oval Office meeting today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Senator Lindsey Graham, after having lunch with President Trump today, said Zelenskyy either needs to resign or they need to send someone over that we can do business with.
Do you feel that President Zelenskyy needs to resign?
RUBIO: Well, that's Lindsey's feeling, because he feels very passionately. You know, he's been a very strong supporter of Ukraine. Lindsey Graham has been one of the strongest voices for Ukraine.
COLLINS: But what is the United States' position?
RUBIO: Well, the United States -- the President's taken no position on that. What he said today is, Let him come back when he's ready to do peace. That's what he said. Let him come back when he's ready to do peace.
So I can't speak for what anybody else said. I can only go off the words from the President of the United States, and that is today we're not -- this is not going to be productive any further. When Zelenskyy's ready to make peace and he's serious about peace, let him come back then, and that's when we'll re-engage with them.
And what he means by that is, and he understands--
COLLINS: And how will you measure that?
RUBIO: Well, I think it's everything I've said already, and that is: How are you going to get Vladimir Putin and the Russian Federation to a table to discuss even the opportunity, whether there -- even to explore whether there's an opportunity for peace?
You're not going to do it by calling him names. It makes everybody feel very good. You can pass resolutions, you can put out very strongly worded statements. Senators can do it. I did when I was in the Senate. House members can do it. Commentators can do it. And countries that have no real skin in the game can do it.
But when you are the President of the United States of America, and you're trying to bring about peace, the way Donald Trump is trying to bring about peace, the only way to do it is you have to create space for people to come to the table and talk. And that is something we should all be applauding, not criticizing--
COLLINS: The one--
RUBIO: --and not pretending that we can just extend this war forever until -- and that everybody has unlimited resources to continue to fund it -- on both sides, by the way.
COLLINS: And President Zelenskyy has said he does want this war to end, he just cares about how it ends. We heard that from the other European leaders who came to the Oval Office also this week.
President Trump said to me today, before that shouting match erupted in the Oval Office, that he doesn't believe there have to be security guarantees in place before the ceasefire, that you can come to a ceasefire agreement and then put those in place. Do you agree with that?
RUBIO: That's not what he said. What he said is, Why am I going to be talking about security guarantees, let me get a peace deal first, is what he said. That doesn't mean they can't happen--
COLLINS: Right.
RUBIO: --as part of that negotiation, but you have to an agreement to -- what is there -- what peace is there to secure if you first don't have an agreement on peace? Like, what do the Russians need in order to end this conflict? What do the Ukrainians need?
COLLINS: So you're saying it would happen as part of the negotiations?
RUBIO: Well, again, why do you end a war? You have to find out what the combatants require in order to stop shooting at each other. What are the Russians' needs? What do they need to see in order for them to stop fighting? What do the Ukrainians need in order to stop fighting?
And then once you have that in place, then you can decide the next step, which is, and what do we need to do to make sure this never happens again -- that it doesn't happen in two years, three years, five years? I don't think President Trump is interested in a one-year ceasefire; I don't think he's interested in a six-month ceasefire. He wants this thing to end. He has said that repeatedly.
[21:30:00]
But again, he's not going to use the kind of language that maybe plays well in the public sphere and the political sphere for people that want to take shots at him, but it's not going to allow us to have a negotiation or even to explore a potential negotiation.
President Donald Trump is a man who's made deals his entire life in business, and he's bringing those principles to government, and he's the only one in the world that has any chance.
If Donald Trump tomorrow decides, I don't care about Ukraine, I don't care about Russia, and I don't care about this war, and he walks away? I ask you -- I ask everyone -- well, who on this planet has any chance whatsoever, even a 1 percent chance, of getting the combatants to the table? The answer is there is no one. He is the only one on Earth right now that has any chance. If there is a chance at peace--
COLLINS: Is he--
RUBIO: --he's the only one that has a chance to deliver on it.
COLLINS: Do you still see a meeting happening with President Putin there, President Zelenskyy, and President Trump? Is that still possible?
RUBIO: Well, I think that's premature. I mean, what would they -- you first need to make sure that this is even a possibility and you have to explore it.
And look, there's good signs, I think, maybe, somewhat about at least the Russians' willingness to engage. And -- but we have to explore all that. But that's not going to be done in front of cameras, it's not going to be done in an open ballroom. There's a lot of work to be done before we get to this point.
This is a complex war that has causes behind it that go back a number of years. There's a lot to navigate, a lot that's been invested on both sides. Gains have been made by the Russian Federation in some places. All of these things have to be worked through.
But it's not going to be done through press conferences and in the media. It has to be done through what the Vice President said today: the serious work of diplomacy.
It's -- you know, it's a lot easier to just say, Well, we're with Ukraine all the way no matter what, however long it takes.
Well, 15 years?
COLLINS: Yes.
RUBIO: 12 years? I mean, that's absurd. That's not sustainable and everybody knows it.
The President wants to end this war. He wants to explore whether there's a possibility to do it and do it quickly. He campaigned on it. It was a promise of his and he intends to -- when he says these things, he doesn't just say them, he means them. And he's doing it, and it's the first time we've seen that in a long time in American politics.
COLLINS: Secretary Marco Rubio, thank you for your time tonight and joining us on such a historic day. I really do appreciate your time.
RUBIO: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: I'm going to get reaction next from another U.S. senator who met with President Zelenskyy just hours before he went to the White House, all smiles and this bipartisan picture. Obviously, that is not how the day ended. More reaction, ahead. [21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Lawmakers and diplomats in Washington are reeling tonight, as the fallout is continuing from that contentious clash that we all watched in the Oval Office, between President Trump and Ukrainian president Zelenskyy.
Republican senator, Roger Wicker, deleted a tweet, apparently, that highlighted his attendance at a bipartisan gathering, this morning, with the Ukrainian leader.
But this still active post from Democratic senator, Amy Klobuchar, you can see big smiles before Zelenskyy headed over to the White House, including from Senator Lindsey Graham.
Senator Amy Klobuchar, who is in that photo, joins me now.
And Senator, thank you so much for being here.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Hey, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: You just heard Secretary Rubio saying that he believes President Zelenskyy should apologize. What do you say?
KLOBUCHAR: This is no time for an apology war. There are lives at stake. There is peace at stake, and the future of really it's -- I think it is not an exaggeration to say the future of Europe, the future the free world, is before us. To let Vladimir Putin march through Ukraine, to go at these negotiations with surrender instead of strength, is a big mistake.
And if you ever question the outcome of what happened at the White House, the former Russian president said this. He said that Zelenskyy was an insolent pig who finally got his slap down.
OK, that is not the result that we should want in America.
And one of the most troubling things to me was when Vice President Vance, as I noted today, as he accused President Zelenskyy of never thanking America.
And as you just recently showed on your show, repeatedly, I have heard President Zelenskyy, thank Republicans, thank Democrats, in private meetings, in public events, over and over.
I once heard the story from embassy personnel, and our Ukrainian -- our American embassy in Ukraine, that people, Ukrainians, in delis, would write on their food, Thank you, America.
Ukrainians and President Zelenskyy are grateful. And I really resented that Vice President Vance said that.
And I -- the only -- I do -- I listened to the entire long interview--
COLLINS: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: --you had with the Secretary of State. And I will say, he still, of course, left open a reset. He did not close off these negotiations.
My interest, right now, in addition to, of course, being appalled by what happened, is to get this back on track. And I have talked to Republican senators, tonight, who are interested in giving this--
COLLINS: And what are they saying?
KLOBUCHAR: They want to get this back on track. I'm not going to go into who they are. I'm not going to talk about what they felt about it.
But I think anyone -- I ask your viewers to watch that tape, and you see the body language, of JD Vance being very aggressive.
And even when President Zelenskyy responds to him on the diplomacy point, he says, Could I? Could I? And he makes his point that I've heard tons of Republicans make, and that is that Vladimir Putin -- and the Secretary of State has made -- has not kept his word. He is someone that, in the past, has violated the Minsk agreement, violated these agreements, and we can't have this happen again.
And that's why President Macron of France, the Prime Minister of Great Britain, have made the points, this week, in Washington, that we need to have a tight security plan with--
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:40:00]
KLOBUCHAR: --any agreement that's made. And that means troops from both Great Britain, and France have offered up troops, once there is an agreement, to work with the Ukrainians to enforce it.
So all President Zelenskyy was saying is that we need to make sure that the agreement is firm, or Vladimir Putin, as he has in the past, will violate it.
COLLINS: Yes, and that was the question that I had for President Trump, before this imploded today, which was about those security guarantees. That's been the key question these leaders have had.
But the question is, how do they get back to those talks? I mean, for Trump, diplomacy is personal. He takes these things incredibly personal, not that any President really doesn't. But I mean, do you see this getting back to a path where they are, where Ukraine still has real leverage at the negotiating table?
KLOBUCHAR: For the sake of United States leadership, we must. And so, I would start with the mineral agreement that benefits both our countries. That is a longer-term agreement, but it's very important, and I know from our meeting with President Zelenskyy, he was looking forward to going to the White House to get that done. And I know President Trump wants to get it done.
COLLINS: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: Secondly, you got to look at who are your friends here, man? Do you want to side with, as Marco Rubio pointed out, North Korea, and Iran-designed drones that the Ukrainians have just shot down? Is that who you want to be with?
Or do you want to be with the other countries of the free world, our allies, our trading partners? They are going to matter in all this. The Italian prime minister, who is a conservative, a friend of President Trump, just called for a summit, and she actually--
COLLINS: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: --has stood with Ukraine. So, that's the second thing, I think, that will matter with our European allies.
And then the third thing to get it back on track is just remember what is at stake here for American leadership across the world, and everything is on the table.
COLLINS: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: So no, I don't think we should be in apology war. I think we should be in America moving forward with our allies. And I would hope that tomorrow, that we can start resetting this again, instead of dividing everyone.
And I am very appalled by what happened.
COLLINS: We shall see.
KLOBUCHAR: But my view is we need to go forward.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what that looks like.
Senator Klobuchar, as always, thank you for your time.
KLOBUCHAR: It's great to be on. Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. More on President Zelenskyy's historic showdown that happened inside the Oval Office. What does he say about what the Senator just weighed in on there? Can they salvage this, and what that looks like?
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Back to tonight's breaking news, as Ukrainian president Zelenskyy is slated to leave Washington after his major blow-up with President Trump inside the Oval Office, amid real questions about the state of their relationship, and whether or not all of this can be salvaged.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: Do you think your relationship with Donald Trump, President Trump, after today, can be salvaged?
ZELENSKYY: Yes, of course, because it's relations more than two presidents (ph). It's the historical relations, strong relations between our people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources are:
The former Deputy Director of National Intelligence, Beth Sanner.
And the former U.S. Ambassador to the EU, during Trump's first term, Gordon Sondland.
It's great to have you both here.
What were your thoughts, on how Zelenskyy, in the Oval Office, responded, reacted. Trump kept saying, You have no cards here, you have no cards to play, as Zelenskyy was pushing back and responding.
BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Look, I do think that there is no way that the sovereign elected leader of a democracy that is at war can just roll over. But I do think it went too far. And, you know, but we can't take -- we can't take it back.
I will say, on that little clip, this whole idea of it being about the people? That does not appeal to President Trump. President Trump has often said, it's not about people, it's not about institutions. It is about people to people, like leaders to leaders, mano a mano.
And so, for repairing this, it is going to have to be Zelenskyy to Trump, somehow, to get it, get through it. It's never going to be fixed, but maybe fixed enough is what we have to look forward to.
COLLINS: Yes, you worked for President Trump. What do you think?
GORDON SONDLAND, MEMBER, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE EU UNDER TRUMP: Well, first of all, I'm not going to criticize President Trump, because when you're in the middle of a negotiation like this, there are all kinds of tactics that you use, and there are emotions that come up.
And he's been in a 1,000 negotiations like this in New York on real estate, and he can't--
COLLINS: This is way different than real estate though.
SONDLAND: I understand there are lives at stake, there's sovereignty at stake. I totally understand the distinction.
But his DNA is that there is a point in the negotiation, and they reached it, this afternoon, where everyone says, f-you to the other, and walks out of the room, and then the deal gets reset.
I think Trump and Zelenskyy need to speak, if nothing, by phone, one- on-one, no one else on the line, have their little private apology to each other, however, it needs to be, and get back to the table, because I think that stakes are enormous.
I don't think the Europeans are being helpful by calling for a summit. We don't need the Europeans now inserting themselves, after they have had four years to put a deal together, and no one in Brussels has shown the leadership to do that. They have the capability.
COLLINS: Yes, I just think that is the question, in terms of what the next step is for the Ukrainians here. I mean, Trump walked out and said he doesn't think Zelenskyy wants peace. That's a pretty big gulf.
I mean, Zelenskyy obviously does want it. That's why he was there today.
SANNER: Yes. Yes.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: But for Trump to view it that way, the question is -- I mean, he didn't go into this with a lot of love for President Zelenskyy. He did say, yesterday, he respects him.
SANNER: No.
COLLINS: But it wasn't going in, on the warmest of terms.
SANNER: No, I mean, I think that this is the thing. It's like they have got to get to a point, where Zelenskyy gets something minimal. Because in this deal, what is Zelenskyy going to get? He is only having to give. So, the one thing that he needs, and I keep saying this--
SONDLAND: Oh, I don't agree -- I don't agree with that.
SANNER: Just let me finish, for a second--
SONDLAND: Yes.
SANNER: --my friend.
SONDLAND: Yes, my friend.
SANNER: So, he needs two things. And we've said this, for this to work out, I've said this repeatedly, we need Russia to the table, which is what Trump is bending over backwards to do.
But this will not be a lasting deal. And as Marco Rubio just said, the President doesn't want a deal that falls apart in a year.
Well, then you need to have a security guarantee, TBD, To Be Defined.
SONDLAND: No, you don't. SANNER: Yes, you do, because--
SONDLAND: No, you don't, you don't, you don't.
SANNER: --because Putin will--
SONDLAND: You--
SANNER: --at some point, come back.
SONDLAND: Beth, I--
SANNER: You need something.
SONDLAND: Beth, I think that Zelenskyy needs to understand the theory of gradual incrementalism. Let's get--
SANNER: That doesn't mean today.
SONDLAND: No, no. Let's get something started. The investment by the U.S. in the rare minerals is going to have a tremendous amount of security that comes with it by default.
SANNER: I agree. It's just not enough.
SONDLAND: It doesn't matter if you're in NATO. It doesn't matter if you have Article 5.
The fact that we're going to have thousands of people there, and billions of dollars at stake, at that point, Putin knows he's attacking the United States if he tries another one.
COLLINS: That was a question I had to Trump, before this blow-up happened, about what happens in the Russian-occupied areas? And he was saying, we'll have to see what happens, obviously, about those Russian forces being forced to leave.
We'll have to see what happens with these talks.
Beth Sanner. Gordon Sondland. Great to have you both here.
SANNER: Thanks.
COLLINS: Thank you so much.
SONDLAND: Thanks.
COLLINS: What does the rest of the world make of what is happening, right now, in this historic moment? We are seeing a unified message coming out of Europe tonight on this.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, a stunning message from the European Union's top diplomat after Zelenskyy's Oval Office meeting with President Trump that devolved into a furious shouting match. This diplomat saying it is clear, the free world needs a new leader, adding, It is up to us, Europeans, to take this challenge.
There is a unified message that is coming out of Europe tonight, you can see it here, that they stand with Ukraine. These are from the leaders of Germany, Poland, Spain and Sweden, just to name a few, rallying behind Zelenskyy, as he's facing massive criticism from the President's allies here in the U.S.
My next source was Trump's longest-serving National Security Adviser, Ambassador John Bolton.
Ambassador, just tell me what did you make of today, and what you saw?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, it was a disaster for American national security.
We saw the President and the Vice President emotionally committed to being on the Russian side of this. And I think it spells disaster for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.
I think it's a signal to Treaty allies of the United States, all around the world, that Trump has divorced himself from the foundations of American foreign policy since 1945. Many of his supporters would applaud that. But that is a disaster for the United States.
The Europeans can't do this themselves. They can talk about it all they want. But they need a United States, led by somebody who understands what its own interests are.
Trump is consumed with the idea that Zelenskyy and Ukraine conspired against him in the 2016 election. I could read you a few excerpts from my book, taking out the words I can't repeat on television, that Trump said repeatedly, about Zelenskyy. And on the other side, he thinks Vladimir Putin is his friend.
This is going not just in the wrong direction. This is going in the wrong direction catastrophically fast, with implications, globally, for our system of alliances.
COLLINS: We just heard from Secretary Rubio in our interview.
I was told it was Rubio and Mike Waltz, who has your former job as the National Security Advisor, who were the ones who went to tell Zelenskyy that he had to leave the White House. Even though Ukrainians wanted to stay and talk, Trump decided there was not time to negotiate, or this wasn't the time to continue that.
What would you have done, were you in that job?
BOLTON: Well, I might have carried out the order, but I would have resigned thereafter.
I must say, watching Marco on your show, the first half hour, was very sad for me, very sad. He's been a strong defender of a vigorous American foreign policy, and in the -- in the wider world, which keeps us safer at home. And yet, he talked about how hard it is to get the poor Russian regime to the table to negotiate.
One reason it's getting harder to get the Russians to negotiate is that Donald Trump is giving them everything they want.
And remember, what kind of regime in Moscow we're talking about, Marco. This is the regime that backs Ortega in Nicaragua. It's the regime that backs Maduro in Venezuela. It's the regime that backs the post-Castro regime in Cuba, Marco. That's the Russia we're talking about.
COLLINS: When you listen to what he said, did you agree with any of the points that he made, in terms of not talking ill of Putin, because that's not helpful, as a negotiation is being done.
BOLTON: Come on, let's get our big boy pants on here. Vladimir Putin is one of the coldest-bloodest -- cold-blooded-est individuals I've ever met. He knows what the back-and-forth means. It's not that he's timid about coming to the table. He doesn't need to. Trump's got the flood running in his direction. He just needs to sit there and get more. This is the exact opposite of the way to negotiate with Putin.
[22:00:00]
The Russians, I can tell you, from arms control negotiations beyond counting, are better than anybody else at taking concessions, putting them in their pocket, and then saying, What have you got for me now? That's what they're doing in the Kremlin, tonight.
COLLINS: It was a remarkable day, Ambassador John Bolton, one for the history books, that's for sure. Thank you for joining, to share your perspective, tonight.
BOLTON: Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Thank you all so much for joining us on a chaotic and busy news hour.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
