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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Stocks Plummet After Trump Doesn't Rule Out A Recession; Government Shutdown Looms As Congress Races To Pass Funding Plan; Musk To Dem Sen. Mark Kelly: "You Are A Traitor." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 10, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now, Anderson, in a post to social media, this evening, the Dominican National Police reiterated, they are truly doing all that they can, to try and find Konanki. That includes re-interviewing potential witnesses, and also expanding forensic surveys of the surveillance video that they already, at this point, have collected.
And Anderson, I'll just note the extensive amount of resources that are being used to try and find Konanki. The Dominican Republic says that they're using the Dominican Army, the Navy, and the Air Force, and that's in addition to our own FBI, who's on the ground in the Dominican Republic, again, aiding this search as well.
Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: All right. Danny Freeman, thanks very much.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
President Trump, and characteristically out of sight, as the markets plunge after he refuses to rule out a recession, as Elon Musk is not shying away from the cameras, or from referring to a U.S. senator and former combat pilot, as a, quote, Traitor.
Also, tonight, a federal judge has just stepped in, amid uproar, over the arrest of a pro-Palestinian activist, who helped lead protests at Columbia and is now being threatened with deportation, despite having a green card and being a permanent U.S. resident.
Also, the mystery woman who was sitting next to Elon Musk, at Trump's address to Congress, last week, fueling mass speculation, has now been identified. And she's here to set the record straight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
It was awfully quiet, at the White House, today, a statement that we haven't really been able to say or utter at all, over the last seven weeks. But it rang true today, as the markets were tanking, over President Trump's massive tariff policy, and his refusal to rule out the possibility of a recession, with Wall Street having its worst day of 2025.
The President remained behind closed doors for all of it, declining to open any of the three events that he had listed on his public schedule to the press, who were waiting nearby with questions.
The President has a history of paying close attention to the markets, touting them when they're up as a gage of his political success, often ignoring them when they're full of red, even when amplified by his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX BUSINESS ANCHOR: Are you expecting a recession this year?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I hate to predict things like that. There is a period of transition. Because what we're doing is very big. We're bringing wealth back to America. That's a big thing. And there are always periods of, it takes a little time. It takes a little time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President there, preparing Americans, potentially, to wait a little bit, as he was hesitant to rule out any possibility that his own policies could trigger a recession.
When he was given another chance, later, on Air Force One, flying back here to Washington, he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you worried about a recession? Maria Bartiromo asked you, and you kind of hesitated.
TRUMP: I'll tell you what -- of course you hesitate, who knows?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Who knows.
Now, of course, the President is not saying that there will be a recession. But refusing to rule out the possibility, is notable.
Trump and his top economic advisers have argued that the moves that they are making here are necessary, to rebalance the global trade system that, they argue, has unfairly put the United States in the place that it is now.
Investors, though, are clearly spooked. When you look at where the markets are, and where they were on Election Day, and just the last few months, as you can see here, compared to where they closed this afternoon. Now, all of this comes as the President is set to impose more tariffs, this week, including on all U.S. steel and aluminum imports, vowing there will be no exemptions for that. And as for those businesses that are seeking clarity, the President said over the weekend, quote, They have plenty of clarity. Today, he declined to say as much, at least in front of the cameras.
My lead source tonight is The New York Times Senior Political Correspondent, and Trump biographer, Maggie Haberman.
And Maggie, it's great to have you here this evening.
When you look at, at the President's schedule, obviously, basically every day, for the last several weeks, there have been multiple events. Even if they're closed, the White House always opens up, typically, one of them, for the President to have the press come in. They ask him before that happens, and he makes the decision, really here, just to give people some insight into this.
How much do you think this decision today is due to what we saw happen with the stock market?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think certainly some of it is, Kaitlan.
This is not something that they can explain away very easily. This is the second week in a row, where there is a significant drop in the Dow Jones number. And as you said, this is something that Trump uses to measure his own success. It is also something that a lot of business leaders use to measure success.
And there has been a lot of private complaints, from allies, and from business leaders, privately, that people are getting an inconsistent message, from the President, about his policies, and about how he's implementing his policies.
And so, him saying that he couldn't rule out a recession, that's logic, and that's actually candid. But as you note, it was pretty striking for him, because usually it's talking optimistically, or saying, the worst can't happen.
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: Yes, he obviously chooses his words carefully, certainly when it comes to the economy, and predicting what his policies are going to lead to. And so, he seems to be wary of having a sound bite of him saying no recession, and there being a recession.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: But what does it say that there was no follow-up or caveat to that, about what this is going to look like, saying that the businesses are getting clarity, as he argued to Maria Bartiromo?
HABERMAN: Because I don't think that he has a clear strategy, Kaitlan. I know that there's a lot of theorizing about why he is doing what he's doing. And some of the theories are that he is trying to force a recession, a la Regan, to try to get things out of the way. There's other -- there's other theories out there that he wants (inaudible) the rates will drop. I don't think any of that is why.
I think he is just, you know, he is a big believer in tariffs. He is -- it's the thing he has been talking about consistently, as a tool for leveling the economic playing field for 40 years, more than 40 years. So it shouldn't surprise anybody that he is going ahead with it.
And unlike term one, there are not a ton of dissenting voices in his administration, who are against what he wants. People are either silent, or offering pretty mild pushback. He was unhappy, last week, with some of what his aides were saying in the press, about tariff exemptions. He wasn't quite clear what he wanted to do.
I think he is not saying more, Kaitlan, because he's not sure how this plays out, and he's not going there.
COLLINS: How is it working this time, in terms of, like I was just thinking the other day of last time, he would have Peter Navarro, who is -- who is back working from him, go out and say one thing--
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: --if he didn't like how the markets were looking. And then if he did, he'd send out a Steven Mnuchin, or someone who had a very different view than Peter Navarro. Is that something that seems to be happening here?
HABERMAN: Sort of. He definitely, according to a number of people, was encouraging Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, to go out and talk on television. He was also then privately complaining to some people about Lutnick, on television, which is also very consistent with term one too. He doesn't have that many people who he can send out right now.
And so, to your point, there were voices that he would send -- who he would send out to calm the markets. He doesn't have a huge number of those right now.
COLLINS: Yes, on this, we've just been looking at the Republican Party overall, and what this has looked like.
You reported, over the weekend, about this tension between one of Trump's top advisers now, and one of his top advisers in round one. That's Elon Musk and Steve Bannon. What is the -- what is behind this, and what you've learned, from looking into this?
HABERMAN: So, Trump is aware that Bannon has been incredibly critical of Elon Musk. Elon Musk is also aware of it, although he has generally decided not to engage publicly, in response to Bannon.
The only thing I can think of is one post on X that Musk did, saying essentially that Bannon is a lot of talk, but not a lot of doing, which, in Musk's lexicon, is a big insult. Trump doesn't like it, is -- I don't know if Trump doesn't like it, because Musk has been complaining, or because other people have been talking about it. But it's definitely getting attention, what Bannon is doing.
And so, Trump told Bannon that he wanted him to lay off Elon Musk, and that he wanted him to sit down with Musk. And that has not happened yet. We'll see if it does.
But what's behind it is that Trump is pretty sensitive to storylines about people fighting. You saw that over the weekend, when he insisted that it was quote-unquote, fake news, that Elon Musk and Marco Rubio had had a problem. It was not fake news. But he doesn't like the stories about fighting.
COLLINS: Very much. And we saw that effort to publicly smooth it out, at least on social media.
HABERMAN: Right.
COLLINS: Maggie Haberman, it was great reporting. Thank you for joining us tonight.
Also here, my White House insiders.
The Washington Post Chief Economics Reporter, Jeff Stein.
And Politico's White House Bureau Chief, Dasha Burns.
Jeff, what are you hearing, just in terms of -- you heard Maggie there, saying that Trump was not happy with some of the things Howard Lutnick was saying on TV, last week. He was the first one to really preview that some of the tariffs were going to be paused or exempted. What do you make of what they're saying today, or Trump not saying anything about these, the stock market reaction?
JEFF STEIN, CHIEF ECONOMICS REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: I think what's going on, from the administration officials we talked to, is that they are seeing if they can ride out this storm, right?
There is a tremendous amount of pressure coming from international allies, as Maggie said, from the business community, from Republicans on the Hill, who are deeply, deeply uncomfortable with this.
But if they can get through, if they can get the tariffs in place, keep them on there, and maybe even add, you know -- they've imposed tariffs on about a trillion dollars' worth of good. There's another $2 trillion that they have queued up to start in April. If they can get those in place, they're thinking, is my understanding, that then they can raise a lot of revenue that they can use to offset their tax cut.
[21:10:00]
So, a lot of this economic instability we're seeing now is a play designed to enable the tax cuts to not completely shred the federal deficit. And if they can get that done. I think that's what Trump's seeing. I think that's why he's being quiet today. He's saying, Can we wait this out? And maybe not.
COLLINS: So they're trying to play the long game, essentially.
What are you hearing from White House officials, on how they were watching today play out?
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Well, to your point, Jeff, I think the silence today is the beginning of an indicator of how much of a threshold for pain this White House has.
I think there are two questions. How much of a threshold does the American public have? And then how much of a threshold does Trump have, as he's watching the stock market, as he's watching the approval ratings, and which one's going to be more important, right?
Sometimes, more recently, allies have been telling me, he's not as concerned about the stock market, as he is about his approval ratings, and how much his base and the big mandate that he feels he has, how much they're still with him to, like, buckle up.
I talked to -- I moved, this weekend, and one of the folks that was doing work on our house was saying, Look, like, if the idea is to bring jobs back, like, I don't like the fact that my lumber's going to cost more, but if it's for the greater good, and if Trump can really message and sell that, I might be willing to stomach it.
The question is, is the rest of America?
COLLINS: Yes, that is the question for these voters. One, congrats on moving.
BURNS: Right.
COLLINS: Because it's the worst thing ever.
BURNS: It's awful.
COLLINS: And I hate doing that.
On Trump's advisers though, we have been hearing them making that argument, and kind of articulating that in terms of what this is going to look like. Here's just a little bit of what that sounded like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: There's going to be no recession in America.
SCOTT BESSENT, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: There's going to be a natural adjustment as we move away from public spending to private spending.
There's going to be a detox period.
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL OF THE UNITED STATES: Just be very wary, Joe, of conversations about recession. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Just as -- it is a question of how American voters hear a detox period. Yes, they voted for the candidate who promised to bring prices down.
STEIN: I mean, I think the one really important factual predicate in all this is that, as we--
BURNS: A fact.
STEIN: Fact, yes.
As we and others have reported, was that a condition for a lot of these guys, to get the positions that they are now in, was that they told Trump over and over, in some cases -- because Trump was suspicious, that if they got this job, they would be on board with the tariff agenda. That was what they vowed in that moment, in -- just a few weeks ago, really.
And for them now to be in this position? I don't think anyone should have sympathy for them, because they knew what they were getting themselves into. But it explains a little bit because, as you guys are, I'm sure, getting calls all day, it's like, Why isn't Scott Bessent pushing back? Why isn't Howard Lutnick pushing back? And the reason is because they told Trump, I will not be a problem on this issue, in no uncertain terms. So whatever they privately think they know they're hemmed in.
And I also know, I think, that their power, their authority within the White House, is predicated on being a team player here, on not being the Steven Mnuchin who was going around and trying to tamp down what Navarro and others were doing.
COLLINS: Or a Gary--
STEIN: Maybe that's too strong, but.
COLLINS: Or a Gary Cohn-type figure. That's a really good point, I think, in terms of what they said to get these jobs.
And this also is, there's pressure from the borders, and from surrounding. I mean, Canada has just elected a new leader who is going to be the new prime minister, and replace Justin Trudeau. He came out swinging, yesterday, in his first remarks, specifically about these tariffs that they have been putting in place, and the retaliatory nature of the tariffs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER-DESIGNATE: America is not Canada. And Canada never, ever will be part of America in any way, shape or form.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
CARNEY: We didn't ask for this fight. We didn't ask for this fight. But Canadians are always ready when someone else drops the gloves.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
CARNEY: So the Americans, they should make no mistake, in trade, as in hockey, Canada will win.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
CARNEY: My government will keep our tariffs on, until the Americans show us respect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: One, Trump might have helped him get elected, because liberals in Canada were not doing very well until this fight happened. But I thought that comment there, at the end, My government will keep--
BURNS: Yes.
COLLINS: --our tariffs on until the Americans show us respect, was notable.
BURNS: Well, I also went to my first hockey game, on Friday, so. Lot going on this weekend.
COLLINS: Very, very trade weekend.
BURNS: But I do wonder if President Trump is going to start calling Mark Carney, Governor Carney, the way he's been calling Trudeau, Governor Trudeau, alluding to the idea that it would be the 51st state.
Look, I think that there's been this strategy of chaos all around, right, that we've said multiple times for Trump, part of the idea is that the chaos is the point. I think, when it comes to our closest allies, now, that strategy of chaos, tariffs on, again, off, again, is that actually going to fly when you have a leader coming in that's willing to stand up.
COLLINS: Well, and to the point, as part of this, I mean, it's not just that he's putting the tariffs on. Its, they're on, they're suspended--
BURNS: They're off.
COLLINS: --they're paused. He backs off of them. They're delayed. I mean, we have steel and aluminum tariffs presumably coming, on Wednesday, this week, 25 percent. That's the question here is, the uncertainty of all of this.
[21:15:00]
STEIN: And I also think there's a question of pride here, right? Because if you look at the numbers, right, like Canada's economy is too small to go head-to-head with the American economy. Like, Carney knows that. He's an economist, former -- been governor. He knows that, like at the end of the day, Canada can't compete.
But at a certain point, national pride begins to intervene. And that's where I think there's a real danger of this spiraling out of control. Because it's not a matter of dollars and cents. It's not a sort of just an algorithm that you can plug in, and hope that the Canadians will back down if you're Trump. And I think that's where people really have to start worrying. I mean, just today, the -- Doug Ford in Ontario threatened to cut off electricity for close to a million American households.
And you could say like, Why is Canada going to escalate if they're a smaller country? But their pride has been wounded. And we've seen throughout history, right, that when countries and countries leaders feel back into a corner, things can get very bad, very quickly. And it's, I mean, we're talking about Canada. It's like -- is there a mass sense of unrest in the country that they want to target Canada? It's just an amazing time.
COLLINS: We'll find out.
Jeff Stein. Dasha Burns. Great to have you both on that.
Also, hanging over the economy, I should note, the possibility of a government shutdown, this weekend, if Congress does not extend federal funding. There is a fight underway, here in Washington. And joining me next is the potential deciding vote.
Also, a recent Columbia grad, and pro-Palestinian activist, who was just arrested by the Trump administration, amid questions about what exactly he was charged with, if anything, as the President pledges that more apprehensions like this are coming.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Members of Congress, once again, find themselves staring down the possibility, tonight, of a government shutdown, of their own making.
The Speaker of the House, pushing for a vote, as soon as tomorrow, and predicting success to my colleague, Manu Raju.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The CR will pass.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What if it gets blocked?
JOHNSON: I don't think it's going to get blocked.
RAJU: What makes you so confident that it will pass?
JOHNSON: Because no one wants to shut the government down, and we are governing, doing the responsible thing as Republicans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Whether the Speaker is right depends, in large part, on my next guest. Republican congressman, Tim Burchett, of Tennessee.
Congressman, should the Speaker be confident, as he is there?
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): We'll see. It's close. The vote's close.
COLLINS: What are you voting?
BURCHETT: I haven't decided yet. It's one of those things that I'll think about tonight, and I'll pray about it, and I'll figure out what to do. I have some questions, though, that remain to be answered.
COLLINS: What questions do you have about this legislation?
BURCHETT: Well, first of all, I was disappointed that we didn't have any of the -- any of the cuts in there that DOGE just talked about. But then, of course, the legal folks tell me that it would -- it's not -- it wouldn't be prudent or proper or legal actually, to put it in a bill like this, it has to come later. And--
COLLINS: Yes, but that is confusing, because if Elon Musk is cutting what he says he's cutting, I asked about this last week, why would you vote to fund that, again, if you think it's waste, fraud and abuse?
BURCHETT: Right. Well, that's a great question. And we've continued to fund it for probably 20 years. But the truth is, is that it's not legal to put it in a bill of this -- the substance. That needs to come later. And I hope that it does. I would -- I would vote on a bill if they just -- if you just put them all together, all the cuts in.
COLLINS: We heard tonight that President Trump was making calls to people that they were worried would vote no. Has he called you yet?
BURCHETT: I talked to him several times, last week. And I have not talked to him this week about after -- after this has come. I'm sure when he sees this, or someone tells him that I'm on here, I'll probably get a call.
COLLINS: Do you -- so, you do expect a phone call from him?
BURCHETT: Sure. Sure.
COLLINS: And could he change your view?
BURCHETT: Well, my concerns are, this is the first time since I've been in Congress, which I'm glad that we are actually putting cuts in there. There's several billion dollars less than the year previous. I would like us to go back to pre-COVID-level spendings, but I realize that we don't have the guts to do that either. Neither party has the guts to do that.
But there're savings in there and -- but -- and they're making cuts in different departments. But the Pentagon always gets their cut, and I don't like that. They're war pimps, and they have continuously raised -- we've raised their -- the amount of money we send them.
You know they've had eight -- eight audits, and they have not -- not only have they not passed an audit. They have not completed an audit. They're very arrogant. And how did we punish them? The last NDAA, we gave them $8 billion new dollars. And both parties do it.
COLLINS: I did look into this. Part of the funding is a pay raise for some of the troops, and in the -- in the CR that you're going to see here, and what that is.
BURCHETT: Yes.
COLLINS: But can you just tell me, are you leaning towards voting yes or towards voting no? And why have you not decided yet if the vote is tomorrow? It's been out since this weekend.
BURCHETT: Well, I'm not -- I'm not leaning either way. I just, I'd like to get some answers first, before we get there. I would like to know that in the future that we're going to -- we are going to look at that, we are going to audit the Pentagon. They are going to have to pass an audit. They're going to have to account for every dollar.
And I suspect DOGE is going to make -- when they get into the Pentagon, and Department of Education, and some others, the waste, abuse and fraud will be considerable, I think it will be shocking to some Americans.
COLLINS: But I counted, and you have voted against at least 38 different federal budget resolutions, in your time on the Hill. Why would you vote yes now?
BURCHETT: There's actual cuts in there, the first time, right?
COLLINS: It has nothing to do with the fact that if you vote no, it can shut the government down?
BURCHETT: I voted to shut the -- we've shut the government down, multiple times and--
COLLINS: But the margin is smaller this time. And if -- you know, right now, there's one hard no vote, Thomas Massie.
BURCHETT: Sure.
COLLINS: I don't know of any definite noes. And we see people go from hard-no to yes--
BURCHETT: Yes.
COLLINS: --sometimes pretty quickly.
BURCHETT: Very quick.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: So, why would you vote yes, this time, if typically you vote against something like this?
BURCHETT: Because this is the first time since I've been in Congress that we've decreased the size of government, literally. And if you add interest in, it's even more, I mean -- I'm sorry -- inflation in, that's even more. But it's several billion. I think it's around $20 billion or $30 billion. But it's a start. It's--
COLLINS: So, it doesn't bother you that essentially, what you would be voting for, though, are spending levels that were agreed to by President Biden and--
BURCHETT: Nancy Pelosi, sure.
COLLINS: --Chuck Schumer and--
BURCHETT: I don't like that one bit, but it is a reduction. And if -- and to shut the government down, I think just mean, politically, the Democrats would -- they would -- this shows the game of politics.
The Democrats before, when we're shutting the government down, Oh, this is the worst thing that ever happened, it's the Republicans' fault. But now, they're going to shut it down. They're not going to vote for the CR, which is almost at the same levels, as they passed under Schumer and Pelosi. And now that it's on us, it's like, Oh, this is the worst thing in the world. And it's just a game, back and forth. That's all it is. I mean--
COLLINS: Do you think, though, that, given that Trump is in the White House, and Republicans control both chambers of Congress, if the government shuts down, Republicans will bear the blame for that?
BURCHETT: Sure. But the reality is it doesn't show up at the polls.
COLLINS: What do you mean?
BURCHETT: In the past, it doesn't. It--
COLLINS: Do you think voters don't care?
BURCHETT: They care. But a lot of people are saying to shut it down.
When they've seen the amount of abuse that's going on in the theft, outright theft, that's going on their tax dollars, when the average -- well the average Tennessean, and they're probably on the lower end of the scale, because their dollars go a lot farther, because we manage our state very well. When they see the average Americans out $600 more a month just to survive, they're saying, What in the world is the government doing? And then when they see the waste, abuse and fraud, that DOGE is exposing? They're livid. They are livid.
COLLINS: But what does it say if Democrats remain unified, and not voting for this, and not supporting it, and Republicans are not unified?
BURCHETT: Well, I'm sure you all will say that the Republicans don't care, and want to shut the government down. But that's, as you just saw, the Speaker of the House, who said a lot more eloquent than I did, that he doesn't think we're going to do that.
COLLINS: But what -- I mean, you are the one who decides that, essentially.
BURCHETT: I am. I am. And I realize that.
COLLINS: And you don't -- you have not -- it's 09:26 p.m., and you have not decided how you're going to vote tomorrow.
BURCHETT: That's correct. That's the beautiful thing about--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Could President Trump sway your vote with a phone call?
BURCHETT: Yes, possibly. But well -- well--
COLLINS: Because he did on the budget resolution, last month.
BURCHETT: Yes, and because he made some commitments in that. But -- and if he commits that, that we are going to audit the Pentagon, we are going to look at decreasing the amount of money that they get.
It's not my dad's warfare anymore. Daddy fought in the Pacific, Second World War. My mama flew an airplane during the Second World War, lost her brother, fighting the Nazis, but when Daddy was in Pacific by the Japanese. Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and the economic might of the country revs up. Six months later, we're going across the Pacific.
Those wars -- that will not happen, like it'll be drones and it'll be unmanned flights. It'll be a lot cheaper. And that's some of the -- and that's one of the things -- a conversation that I have with Elon Musk, as well, about the potential of our warfare being a lot cheaper, although more technically advanced.
COLLINS: We'll see what his efforts at the Pentagon looks like.
Congressman--
BURCHETT: Thank you, ma'am.
COLLINS: --let us know when you decide how you're going to vote. Thank you very much.
BURCHETT: Always a pleasure. Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Appreciate you coming on tonight. Thank you for that. Up next. There are new developments, this evening, on the pro- Palestinian activist who helped lead protests on Columbia's campus, just arrested by the Trump administration, as his supporters say he is a lawful -- his lawyer says he's a lawful permanent resident. But the DHS Secretary, not saying much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Can we talk about the arrest of the pro-Palestinian activist?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What specific crime did the student commit?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A federal judge tonight has blocked, at least for now, President Trump's efforts to deport a pro-Palestinian activist who helped lead Columbia University's student protest movement, demanding a ceasefire in Gaza.
Mahmoud Khalil was arrested, Saturday, by federal immigration authorities, who said they were acting on orders from the State Department to revoke his green card.
Although it's not clear what he has been charged with, if anything, and the DHS Secretary did not answer when we asked her today at the White House, here's what we do know.
Khalil was at the forefront of the student led anti-war movement at Columbia's New York Campus, last year. President Trump has vowed to deport foreign students and imprison, what he says are, agitators who are involved in, quote, illegal protest.
The White House celebrated his arrest today, and shared this edited photo of Khalil, that says, quote, "We will find, apprehend, and deport these terrorist sympathizers from our country - never to return again." And they are vowing, there are more to come.
My sources tonight are monitoring this very closely. Immigration attorney, Raul Reyes, and CNN Contributor, Lulu Garcia-Navarro, are here.
And it's great to have you both.
Raul, I want to start with you. Because the DHS agents said that they were revoking his student visa. But he says he has a green card, he's a lawful permanent resident, and has not been charged with any crime that we have been able to be made aware of, I mean. And there have been real questions raised, is this a violation of the First Amendment?
RAUL REYES, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: Right. Yes, obviously this is a developing legal situation, so we don't know all of the facts. But based on what we do know, from Mr. Khalil's lawyer, yes, this is clearly a violation of his First Amendment rights.
[21:35:00]
And remember, under our Constitution, immigrants, particularly lawful residents, are entitled to due process. They are entitled to freedom of speech. They are entitled -- they are entitled to express their political views. So, that's what it looks like, as someone who is not personally involved in this case.
But the important thing here is that Mr. Khalil's views on Israel, or Gaza, or Palestine, are not the point. What we are looking at is potential use of immigration enforcement to suppress free speech. And that is very likely unconstitutional, really unprecedented, and likely illegal as well.
COLLINS: And we saw Secretary Rubio today, describing him as a supporter of Hamas, saying that was the reason here.
But part of this, Lulu, is that they have this broad authority, and this provision of an immigration initiative, when it comes to who they can subject to deportation.
This is what we heard from a senior DHS official, who said the Immigration and Nationality Act states that an alien, quote, Whose presence or activities in the United States, the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences, is eligible to be deported.
I mean, the question is the term, that they say, alien, refers to anyone who is not a citizen or a U.S. national.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CO-HOST, THE NEW YORK TIMES' "THE INTERVIEW," CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think there's a lot of different things this brings up.
First of all, is this someone who actually presented a threat to the United States? I mean, he was charged with no crime. He was actually the public-facing person of these protests. He was actually negotiating with the University, on behalf of the protesters. He wasn't actually involved, necessarily, in the organization of the protests.
And beyond this, the question is, is anti-war protests the same thing as pro-terrorist protests? I mean, they're conflating what some would say are two different things.
Beyond this, he's married to a U.S. citizen. And it seemed like when the ICE agents showed up at his residence, they thought he was on a student visa. They were actually surprised that he was a green card holder. And there is a different standard for those things.
The real issue here, is it -- is it going to be pro-Palestinian protesters today, and people who protest the Trump administration tomorrow? That is the concern that many people have, who are looking at this, and wondering, How is this being used?
COLLINS: And on that front, there is a court hearing tomorrow. What happens in that front, given -- I should note, we have learned, he was arrested in New York. He is being held in a facility in Louisiana, 1,300 miles away from that, where he was initially held in New Jersey.
What happens in court tomorrow? Where does this go from here? Because obviously, we've heard the arguments from his attorneys. Is the Trump administration now going to have to lay out those arguments in a courtroom?
REYES: Yes, absolutely. And this is going to be a steep challenge, for the Trump administration.
Because the fact is, it is true, a green card can be revoked from a non-citizen. However, that decision is not made by the President's executive order, or even the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio.
That is a decision that will ultimately be made by the immigration judge, and it normally requires a criminal conviction or some -- or, for example, in this instance, some type of evidentiary support for Mr. Khalil having materially aided a terrorist group, like Hamas. Based on what the government has offered, that doesn't seem to be the case. So, it potentially could happen.
Many people in the immigrant rights community, I will tell you, they believe that one of the reasons he was transferred to Louisiana, so quickly, is because the administration is hoping that a judge in that conservative circuit may somehow be more receptive to the government's arguments.
But just the fact that the Trump administration is carrying out -- carrying out this potential deportation, it truly sends a chilling message to all immigrants, to legal residents, the undocumented, and their families. Because what if, for example, immigrants are out protesting DACA, or rallying for Ukraine, or against police brutality? Who is to decide what type of conduct is in the national interest or not.
And win or lose, the Trump administration, unfortunately, in my view, has already won this case, in the sense that this is inspiring great fear among migrants, even legal residents and their families, not to mention the millions of people who we have here in the country who are undocumented.
COLLINS: Yes.
And this is something I should note that Trump did say, Lulu, that he would do, on the campaign trail, and made clear was a part of his plan in terms of what this was going to look like when he was in office.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: He did. He made that clear. And it was popular among some of the people who are voting for him.
But at the end of the day, is it legal? And more than is it legal, is it actually, in the spirit of what we do here in the United States of America, which is allow freedom to protest and freedom of assembly?
COLLINS: Yes. Lulu Garcia-Navarro. Raul Reyes. Great to have both of you here tonight. Thank you so much.
[21:40:00]
Up next. A rare interview by Elon Musk, as he and his companies are facing backlash today, over DOGE cuts. His response?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KUDLOW, BROADCASTER AND FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL OF THE UNITED STATES: Your stock is way down. You've been criticized left and right.
ELON MUSK, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But look on the bright side.
KUDLOW: I mean, why -- why are you--
MUSK: But besides that.
KUDLOW: Yes. I mean--
MUSK: How's your day?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As Elon Musk and his DOGE team are tearing through the federal government, the world's richest man has also had a pretty brutal 24 hours.
When his social media platform, known as X, experienced outages today, he claimed it was from a massive cyberattack, originating in Ukraine, though he did not provide evidence to back that claim up.
Also, Tesla's share price taint more than 15 percent, as part of that severe stock market dip that we were monitoring all day.
And there was also a weekend of protests, including some of them that turned violent, at the electric car company's showrooms, across the U.S.
[21:45:00]
But Musk remained pretty optimistic, when asked about it all today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KUDLOW: Let me see if I get this right. They're setting fire to various Tesla charging stations near Boston. Shots were fired at a Tesla dealership in Oregon. Various non-violent--
MUSK: Shots fired. Not a metaphor.
KUDLOW: Shots fired, yes. Downtown New York marching--
MUSK: Right.
KUDLOW: --marching against the Tesla's showroom. Your stock is way down. You've been criticized left and right.
MUSK: But look on the bright side.
KUDLOW: I mean, why -- why are you doing this?
MUSK: Always look on the--
KUDLOW: That's really what people want to know.
MUSK: Always look on the bright side of life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are here.
Former Obama campaign adviser, Ameshia Cross.
And former Romney campaign adviser, Kevin Madden.
It's great to have you both here.
KEVIN MADDEN, FORMER ROMNEY CAMPAIGN ADVISER, SENIOR PARTNER, PENTA GROUP: Thank you.
COLLINS: I mean, the answer there, he went on to say, other than that, how was the opera play on the Mrs. Lincoln?
MADDEN: Right.
COLLINS: But he was asked about the backlash, in terms of the other companies that he does run. And this is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KUDLOW: How are you running your other businesses?
MUSK: With great difficulty. Yes, I mean.
KUDLOW: But there's no turning back, you're saying?
MUSK: I'm just here, trying to make government more efficient.
KUDLOW: You're going to go another year?
MUSK: Yes, I think so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I thought it was such a notable exchange there.
MADDEN: I thought it was notable because it showed a little bit of a vulnerability. And I think, to this point, he hasn't really shown much of that. He's been very aggressive, and sort of trying to exhibit the Trump aggression with the task that he has at hand.
But, like, so many other businesses, their focus is, and so many CEOs, their focus is on their industry. Their focus is on their growth of their company, and actually making sure that their company and that growth is more durable.
And one of the defining characteristics of our politics, right now, is the volatility. And Trump has sort of -- I'm sorry. Musk has sort of injected himself, I think, into a very volatile political situation, and as a result, he's exposed, I think, his -- some of his companies on that.
But I think the thing is also, is that he does recognize that beyond just the CEO, there are shareholders, there are investors, there are employees, there are suppliers around the country that all depend on the sort of Musk brand and the Musk company profile. And many of them, right now, I think he's thinking about them, as you see some of this volatility start to impact a little bit of his business.
COLLINS: What stood out to you from the interview?
AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, I think that one, he kind of tried to make light of it. There was a little bit of a joke back and forth. But the other part was, to your point, I think that him, seeing the reckoning come from those shareholders, is making a difference.
But this is a guy who, honestly, this is his -- he's living his dream. You can be the richest and most powerful -- you can be the richest man on earth, and still want power. So, his seat of power, in American government, the ability to disassemble it at will, the ability to sit in on Cabinet-level meetings with foreign -- with foreign leaders, that's a huge thing for him.
And I think he's watching the disillusion of some of his other businesses, the ones that he made his name and brand off of, kind of take a slide, a little bit of a dip. But quite frankly, it's not enough, yet, for him to have any level of real concern.
COLLINS: But how much of this -- there is that factor of being associated with Trump, and the DOGE cuts, and the backlash we've seen at some of these Republican town halls.
But there are other moments, where Elon Musk tweeted last night after Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona posted that he had been in Ukraine, and meeting with people there. Elon Musk responded, and said, quote, "You are a traitor," to that picture that he shared there. Obviously, Mark Kelly is a retired Navy pilot who served for 25 years.
But it's also moments like that, where he's saying that to a sitting U.S. senator, who's a combat vet.
MADDEN: Yes. And the big risk there is that you risk losing the narrative for why you're there to begin with, why Trump brought you in, and why Trump trusts you, to begin with. Now, Trump is obviously very -- he's just as combative as anybody we know in politics, and doesn't -- you know, doesn't shed many tears for his political opponents.
But the mission is government efficiency, not sort of political punditry and personal assessments, or personal attacks, on other members of Congress. And so, that's where I think you start to lose your mission focus. And then, that mission focus -- that loss of mission focus, I think, you start to gain some critics.
Members of Congress, other elected officials are going to be called on the carpet and say, What did you -- what do you make, or, What's your opinion of what Elon Musk said about Senator Kelly? And then, you have everybody else's distraction becoming your distraction.
COLLINS: Yes. And Kelly responded and said, Traitor? Elon, if you don't understand that defending freedom is a basic tenet of what makes America great and keeps us safe, maybe you should leave it to those of us that do.
[21:50:00]
There is a question of whether this provides an opening, to Democrats, who have had essentially no real cohesive message since Trump won the election.
CROSS: No, I think it absolutely does. There are quakes within the House, as we can all see.
But I also think that for Elon, as well as President Trump, at this point, they have proven to not be big fans of patriotism in its realest form. I don't mean the people who clowned on January 6th, but actual individuals who have served this country. We see that with them basically deteriorating the VA, cutting thousands of veteran jobs, but also the services that veterans rely on for their -- for their health care, for their housing and several other benefits.
I think that what we're seeing now is something Democrats should jump on. Because one, Mark Kelly is in a very -- he's in a -- he's in a very would-be-red district. He's the person who helped to flip a lot -- a lot across the state. But on top of that, this is an area where they can really lean in, where a lot of the things that they have kind of jumped on, haven't gotten a lot of attention.
COLLINS: Ameshia Cross. Kevin Madden. Great to have you both here tonight. Thank you so much.
MADDEN: My pleasure.
COLLINS: And tune in tomorrow night. I'm going to be joined by Senator Mark Kelly, and get his response to what Elon Musk had to say there. Probably is going to be fiery. We'll see what that looks like.
Up next. My next source, speaking of Elon Musk, was seated next to him at President Trump's address to Congress, last week. What has happened since then, quite a shock for her and her family. She's here now to set the record straight, this evening.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: While it was not surprising that Elon Musk had a prime seat for President Trump's address to Congress, last week, the person sitting next to him surely had no idea what was in store for her. Almost immediately, after he entered the chamber, there was rampant speculation, online, about the woman who was seated to his left.
It was sparked by this moment in part, when Musk was handed several bottles of water, kind of looked around, and then handed one to the woman that you see next to him here. The seemingly innocuous exchange has now turned into a wave of harassment, though, for Heather Valentino, including several derogatory references to her online, as Musk's next, quote, Baby mama.
I spoke with Heather Valentino, about all of this, earlier tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Heather Valentino joins me now to share her story.
And Heather, I'm so glad that you're here, and you're speaking with me.
You're obviously a private person. I can't imagine what the last week has been like for you. Can you just -- can you just walk me through, when you realized that night that you were going viral, and what the last few days have been like for you?
HEATHER VALENTINO, ATTENDED TRUMP'S SPEECH TO CONGRESS LAST WEEK, ATTACKED ONLINE AFTER BEING SEATED NEXT TO MUSK AT TRUMP SPEECH: Well, at first, Kaitlan, it wasn't much. It was funny at first, and then it changed, and then it became awful.
My information was released, and then it was just non-stop. So, I've had reporters show up at my work, I've had reporters show at my house. Sadly, we've had the cops there. They've tried to get ahold of my family, my kids. They had to block their Instagram. It's been a lot.
COLLINS: I mean, I can't even imagine. Had you ever even met Elon Musk before last week?
VALENTINO: No. No. No. It's all quite ridiculous, actually.
COLLINS: So you had -- you had no connection, and you just happened to be seated next to him, in the chamber--
VALENTINO: No.
COLLINS: --when he came in the room?
VALENTINO: Yes, it was absolutely by chance, yes. COLLINS: When you arrived to the Capitol, did you know that you would be -- did you realize that you'd be sitting so close to the first lady's guest box, which is, is, of course, where that was?
VALENTINO: No. No, not at all. It wasn't until we started like sitting and seating that I had known. I didn't even realize, until everyone around me was, you know, was telling me.
COLLINS: And you talk about the harassment that you faced, and how it went from being comical or humorous, to obviously not so much in the last several days. You're an aesthetician. You run your own business. I mean, how has that all been affected by--
VALENTINO: Right.
COLLINS: --by what has happened over the last several days?
VALENTINO: Immensely, because I haven't been able to work. So, I haven't gone back to work yet. It's been quite awful. Quite awful for my clients, quite awful for myself, quite awful for the people that I work amongst with, and for my business. It hasn't been good.
COLLINS: Yes, I can imagine. Why do you think it's important to get your perspective, and your version of what happened, and what you've been through out there, for the public to know?
VALENTINO: I did not know Elon Musk. There wasn't flirting. I think we talked a couple times. It was just, that's the shots, and that's the videos that were aired. And all the rest that I was talking to everyone else around me, those were not aired.
And when I stood up with Elon Musk, I mean, I wasn't going to stay seated. So when everyone else got up, obviously I got up as well. It wasn't like I was smooching or flirting. It wasn't that at all.
COLLINS: What would you say to people, tonight, just given what you've been through. And you said your family has been targeted as well, and I'm so sorry for that. What would you say to those tonight who have been--
VALENTINO: Thank you.
COLLINS: --hateful online, to you, or to your family, or even directed at your business?
[22:00:00]
VALENTINO: I think they all have just the wrong view, the wrong idea. I was just someone that was, you know, I was excited to go to the State of the Union. Who wouldn't be? And that's just where I sat. So, that's where I got seated. And it was amazing. But the backlash from just the seat is, it's ridiculous, and it's awful, and it's hurtful, to a lot of people, not just myself.
COLLINS: Yes. Heather, thank you so much for joining, and for coming on to share your perspective, and just what the last few days have been like. I really appreciate your time.
VALENTINO: Thank you. Thank you so much, Kaitlan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And thank you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
