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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Says Tariffs "Are Here To Stay" As Markets Recoil; Fired NSA Chief Tells Team To Back Trump's Security Priorities; Obama: Citizens Must Fight For Democracy, Can't Be Complacent. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 04, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The more she got away with, the more she felt she could get away with. She thinks, Well, why can't I get $50 million? It's a megalomania of a kind, I guess, and also somewhat justified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: That's fascinating. The new episode of "United States of Scandal with Jake Tapper," airs Sunday, 09:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific, right here on CNN.
That's it for us. The news continues. Have a great weekend. I'll see you, Monday.
"THE SOURCE" starts now.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Straight from THE SOURCE tonight.
An historic stock market plunge, warnings of higher inflation, plus increased recession fears. Did I mention? That's all before the President's universal tariffs take effect, at midnight tonight.
A purge at the highest ranks of the intelligence community. Trump firing the top brass at the National Security Agency, one of those officials was in charge of protecting U.S. cyberspace. Key Democratic senator is my source.
And the Trump administration appealing the judge's ruling tonight, saying they must bring back a man they admit was mistakenly deported to El Salvador. That man's lawyer is here, live.
I'm Jim Sciutto, in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, we are just three hours away from a 10 percent tax on everything, everything shipped into this country, as President Trump's trade war continues to escalate.
China is striking back with its own 34 percent tariff on all imports from the United States. This begins next week.
And every day that the stock market reacts like this, that's a lot of red there, retirement gets further away for millions of Americans.
Yet the man, who is singlehandedly betting your 401(k) on his attempt to reshape the global economy, on his terms, says, This is a great time to get rich, richer than ever before. Exclamation points.
That optimism stands in stark contrast to what you hear when you speak to Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE KELLEHER, DAVID AUTO GROUP: These are American dealers that employ Americans. They are going to be impacted in a really difficult way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wouldn't be able to afford something, if it goes up like that, and it's going to be bad for American people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Always you wake up in the morning, I wonder what the egg is going to be, how much the oil is going to be, how much the prosciutto will be. So you're always thinking and worry about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Today, the Federal Reserve Chair said that Trump's trade war will cause higher inflation and slower growth.
So, what are Americans going to pay more for? Things like fruits and vegetables, perishable grocery items will cost more first. And it's not just what you eat. It's what you wear, what you use at home, and electronics like laptops, tablets, smartphones that are going to get more expensive. They are.
And while this was happening today, this was also happening, the President playing golf at his Trump International Golf Club, before heading back to Mar-a-Lago.
And just a short time ago, he posted on Truth Social, quote, "Big business is not worried about the Tariffs, because they know they are here to stay, but they are focused on the BIG, BEAUTIFUL DEAL, which will SUPERCHARGE our Economy."
We begin with our White House insiders.
And good to have you all here.
Peggy, I want to begin with you, at Bloomberg.
You have the Fed being quite clear, as to what this is going to do. Higher inflation, slower growth, and that the effects of this could be more persistent, that this is not going to be fleeting.
Do you speak to anybody, on Wall Street, who buys what the President is saying here, that this is a big, beautiful deal, that's going to make everybody richer?
PEGGY COLLINS, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, BLOOMBERG NEWS: Well, I think what happened, Jim, is that the investors on Wall Street, and traders on Wall Street, were baking in that we were going to have tariffs and higher tariffs.
What happened, on Wednesday, was that the magnitude and scope of those tariffs was surprising to most people.
And then, we saw China come out, this morning, and retaliate. And few hours after that, as you said, Fed Chair Powell came out and said, This could be a double whammy for the economy in terms of slower growth, which could potentially affect hiring, and higher prices, which is something that the American people have been dealing with--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
COLLINS: --since COVID.
SCIUTTO: Yes, and by the way, seemed to move the election in Trump's favor. They're expecting progress there.
Zolan, this is how the Financial Times put it today. If it endures, speaking of Trump's tariffs, Donald Trump's decision on April 2nd to enact sweeping reciprocal tariffs on U.S. trade partners will go down as one of the greatest acts of self-harm in American economic history. They will wreak untold damage on households, businesses and financial markets across the world, upending a global economic order that America benefited from and helped to create.
[21:05:00]
I wonder, Zolan, is there anyone inside the White House, or close to the White House, close to the President, who's communicating -- communicating that message, to Trump right now? Or is he just surrounded by folks, who are nodding their heads, and saying, Mr. President, you got this right?
ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think this moment is another prime example of the difference between Trump round one and Trump round two.
Trump round one, you may have those people, a Rex Tillerson, a Steve Mnuchin, that were around him, trying to -- trying to temper actions, like the tariffs that we saw this week.
Remember, this time, this administration conducted loyalty tests for people coming into government, to ensure that the President would be able to act on these instincts, act on something that has really been a part of his identity, even long before his political career, feeling that America was being ripped off, and wanting to use these tariffs to almost build a wall of sorts, an economic wall around the nation.
But it bears -- it's worth repeating, U.S. importers, most economists say, pay for the price of tariffs, and that goes and passes on to the consumer. So now you have a gamble here. Is Trump's grip on his supporters, in the party, so strong, that his supporters will weather through economic frustration, and wait for what he says will happen, which is manufacturing coming back to the United States. But how long is that going to take? And do voters become frustrated and fed up with high prices in the meantime?
SCIUTTO: I mean, and also, the idea that that is short-term is not something that's supported by a number of economists looking at this, imagining that all these manufacturing jobs are suddenly going to return here.
Dasha, The Washington Post is quoting a White House official, as saying, quote, He is, of course, being Trump, is at the peak of just not giving an F anymore. I won't specify what that word is. Bad news stories? Doesn't give an F. He's going to do what he's going to do. He's going to do what he promised to do on the campaign trail.
Is that what you're hearing here, that Trump is not even concerned about what used to be his primary bellwether for political success, which is the state of the stock market, that he's forging ahead?
DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Yes, I mean, in Trump won, we heard constantly how much he was watching the stock market, how much that was sort of impacting how he was thinking day-to-day. That is just not the case anymore.
And to that point, about the difference between 45 versus 47. He's not concerned about reelection. He's not even really concerned about the midterms for Republicans. He has a vision for what he wants to do, and he's doing it. And those around him have to be falling in line, at this point, because, again, that was the loyalty test.
The thing that I'm trying to parse in my reporting is these two different reads that I'm getting from those close to President Trump.
The first read is that this is part of The Art of the Deal. This is the beginning of negotiations. This is where he laid it down. And now these calls are coming in from these different countries, and he's going to use this to get better deals for Americans.
The second read is, No, no, no, no, no--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BURNS: --he is fundamentally trying to reshape the world economic order. And this isn't just a negotiation tactic. This is part of a plan that he has had. He loves tariffs, and he wants to see things fundamentally shift in the way that trade happens globally.
And I just don't know which direction is going to end up being truthier by the end of this.
SCIUTTO: And listen, I mean, if we take him at his word, Trump just posted to Truth Social tonight, that the tariffs are here to stay. At least, that's what he's saying now.
Shelby, to be fair, one does not have to look hard or far, to find the President warning about a big market drop, if he were to have lost the election. Have a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: If we don't win.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: If we don't win, and you're going to have a stock market crash.
We'll have the largest stock market crash we've ever had.
That will come crashing down.
If we lost this election, I think the market would go down the tubes.
And when there's a crash, I hope it's going to be during this next 12 months, because I don't want to be Herbert Hoover, the one president, I just don't want to be Herbert Hoover.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Interesting telling. Maybe even some foreshadowing there.
But Shelby, does anybody, in the White House, acknowledge that quite obvious and public fact that Trump warned about a market crash. But in fact, he won, and we have a market crash.
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: No, they, quite frankly, they are not doing that.
And what I think is interesting, to everybody else's point, is the fact that this Donald Trump is sort of unleashed. He knows what he wants to do. He talked about tariffs on the campaign trail.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
[21:10:00]
TALCOTT: And despite the fact that we have a market crash, they are insisting that this market crash is just temporary, essentially, and that Americans just sort of need to ride it out. And that is what I'm hearing, is the difference between what we heard Donald Trump on the campaign trail, versus what we're seeing now in reality. Their argument is, It is not here to stay.
SCIUTTO: Peggy, you speak to a lot of folks on the market. Do they believe that this is just a, let me use that word, transitory stock market problem here? Or are they worried about it getting even worse?
COLLINS: Well, you use the word, transitory.
I think Fed Chair Powell, going back to that, said today that its -- uncertainty is here, and it's not just uncertainty about trade policy. It's also about the impact on the economy, from changes to immigration policy, changes to regulatory policy, changes to fiscal policy. The Trump administration says tax cuts are going to be one of the things that could help us out of this. But right now, it looks like a number of these factors are causing a lot of people to get nervous.
SCIUTTO: Yes, we see that, and lots of folks putting a lot of money to express their nervousness as the market drops.
Everyone, thanks so much. We appreciate you joining us, on this Friday.
Coming up next. The top Democrat, on the Senate Intelligence Committee, is blasting President Trump after he fired several top national security officials, on the advice of someone who once claimed that 9/11 was an inside job. Senator is my source tonight.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, we're learning that the Laura Loomer-led purge of top national security officials has now hit the NSA. General Timothy Haugh, the Director of the National Security Agency, who also led U.S. Cyber Command, was fired for apparent lack of loyalty to the President. No evidence presented of that.
Yet, in an emotional farewell to his staff, General Haugh wrote, quote, "Now, more than ever, the Command and Agency need your courage, commitment and sacrifice." And, again quoting, "I ask you to support the President and keep after our Nation's priorities."
General Haugh and his top deputy were fired yesterday.
The White House also fired multiple staff members, on the National Security Council, also, at the urging of the right-wing activist who, among other things, called herself once, a proud Islamophobe, and posted a claim that 9/11 was an inside job.
This comes as the number of people fired, after taking part in that unsecured Signal chat, where active military operations were being discussed on an unsecure platform, remains zero.
My source tonight is the top Democrat, on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Mark Warner.
Senator, thanks so much for taking the time, this Friday night.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Well, Jim, thank you.
We're in the middle of the vote-a-rama, which we'll be voting all night. And actually, I've got an amendment on this, little bit later, where I'm going to say, Shouldn't we at least require our senior national security officials not to communicate on non-secure lines? We'll see if Republicans step up.
But you laid this out well. General Haugh, 30 years of military service, served Republicans and Democrats alike-- SCIUTTO: Yes.
WARNER: --being fired by this, quite frankly, lunatic. At what point, if ever, will my Republican colleagues find any courage? I don't know.
SCIUTTO: You took to the Senate floor, to condemn this move.
Laura Loomer, as you know, accuses him of disloyalty to the President.
In your experience with him, over the years, did he ever exhibit any political leaning that kept him from doing his job, leading the agency?
WARNER: Absolutely not, Jim. I had no idea what his politics are. But that's been the case for all of the NSA leaders. These are career military. Their job is to be -- speak truth to power.
And the one thing we know is that this President doesn't want anyone telling him the truth. And candidly, this person, who you said is a -- denied 9/11, has said school shootings are made-up? No rational administration would have her within a 100 yards of the White House. Yet, she's giving the President, staffing advice.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this. Because, as you know, these roles are designed specifically to be non-political. They often straddle administrations. Paul Nakasone, for instance, he straddled the first Trump administration and the Biden administration.
What is the effect on our intelligence gathering and defense of in essence, holding senior officials to what are becoming political litmus tests, loyalty tests.
WARNER: Well, Jim, this is the unraveling of literally, the whole history of our intelligence and military service to be non-political.
This action which undermines the confidence of all the folks, who work in the IC, coming on top of the careless, repeatedly sloppy handling of classified information, which we call that Signalgate, if any military officer or IC officer had done that, they'd be fired right away. We're now 10 or 12 days after we saw it was not just one chat, but 20-plus chats on Signal. Nobody's been held accountable.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WARNER: And I just go back. I've been on the Intel Committee a long time. It's been the most bipartisan committee in the Senate. When are any of my Republican colleagues going to find the spine to call out what is obviously outrageous behavior?
SCIUTTO: On the House side, Republican Don Bacon, he told Fox News that the White House fired one of the best generals and the smartest on cyber operations. He went on to say that China and Russia are laughing at us.
At some point, this is going to make the country less safe, to take--
WARNER: Jim, well, it already is--
SCIUTTO: --qualified folks out of important jobs.
[21:20:00]
WARNER: You're absolutely right. And remember, we're still sitting at a time, where the Chinese, what was called, Salt Typhoon, have penetrated all of our telecom networks. And General Haugh had a plan to try to remedy that. Now, if you put in somebody political there, that's loyalty, is simply to Donald Trump.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WARNER: And when we've seen the leaders at ODNI, the Director of National Intelligence, I believe, lie to the committee. The Secretary of Defense, who sent out this information that put American lives in danger.
I tell you, I was down in Hampton Roads with the Truman, the aircraft carrier that's in the Eastern Mediterranean, with the planes Truman (ph), they knew that if that information had gone out, people's lives could have been in danger.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WARNER: None of these folks are up to the job. And I just wonder, how many more disasters do we have to have before there's some accountability?
SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, in the cyberspace, as you know -- I've spent a lot of time on these stories -- this is a -- it's a -- it's a low- grade war that's already underway. I mean, there's cyberattacks happening every minute, probing operations, cyber weapons planted inside critical systems.
So, I imagine, if the country lets its guard down, and is focused more on who tweets what, or what Laura Loomer says, that that makes it -- makes the country more vulnerable to those kinds of attacks.
WARNER: This is a no-brainer. Absolutely. It's why we set up the intelligence community, and the military, to be non-political. All of that is being undermined.
And what I keep -- as somebody who gets accused of being too bipartisan, I am so bitterly disappointed that Republicans have never been -- have not yet been willing to stand up and say, Enough. We cannot undermine these institutions.
SCIUTTO: So, when you have private conversations, with your Republican colleagues, are any of them saying now, this could be too much? Exposing information about military operations underway, as the Signalgate conversation did, or taking someone out of a top leadership position in the midst of ongoing cyber operations. Does anybody say to you privately, You know what? This is getting close, Senator Warner, to when it's too much for me.
WARNER: Yes, absolutely, they--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WARNER: Absolutely. But private conversations when our, candidly, our national security is at stake, don't amount to a hill of beans. Until they find the willingness to step up and speak out?
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WARNER: Our national security diminishes.
And as I will give Representative Bacon from Nebraska a little credit here, he's absolutely right. There were celebrations, I can imagine, in the intel community in China and Russia today, when they saw somebody of General Haugh's character and determination of keeping our nation safe, frankly, getting fired for blatant political reasons.
SCIUTTO: Before we go. Laura Loomer posted about you specifically. I wanted to give you a chance to respond.
She wrote, in a long post, quote, If anti-Trump and pro-impeachment Democrats are angry about the firings of Trump administration officials in the NSC and NSA, and they are angry about POTUS, President of the United States, meeting with me in the Oval Office, that's how you know I did the right thing and that these people needed to be fired.
She went on to say, The Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee are crying because they were hoping to weaponize the Intel agencies against President Trump again, just like they did during his first term, to spy on him and stage a coup against him.
There's a lot in there. Give you a chance to respond
WARNER: Yes. Just two quick things.
One, remember, this is a lady who thinks that 9/11 was an inside job.
This is somebody who calls into question the veracity of school shootings.
This is also somebody that some of the people, who were fired at the National Security Council, were literally staff members of Republican senators and Republican congressmen.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WARNER: It'll be interesting to see whether those members, who these guys and gals used to work for, were willing to stand up, and support their former staff members. We'll see.
SCIUTTO: Current Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. One of his former staffers, among them.
WARNER: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Senator Mark Warner, hope you have a good weekend.
WARNER: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Coming up next. Trump officials are pushing back against a judge who ordered they bring back a man who the White House admits it mistakenly deported to El Salvador, calling the judge a Marxist, and suggesting she reach out to the Salvadoran president herself. The deported man's lawyer is my next source.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, the Trump administration is appealing a judge's Monday deadline to bring back a man deported to El Salvador by mistake.
Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Salvadoran national and father of three, was living in Maryland, under protected legal status, when he was arrested last month, and then sent out of the Country. Trump officials have since admitted he was deported, quote, "Because of an administrative error," but, they say, they can't do anything to get him back because he's now in Salvadoran custody.
My source tonight is Abrego Garcia's attorney, Simon Sandoval- Moshenberg.
Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
SIMON SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG, ATTORNEY FOR KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA, ATTORNEY FOR MAN MISTAKENLY DEPORTED TO EL SALVADOR: Good evening.
SCIUTTO: So first, I want to begin with how you square the Trump administration appealing the ruling, to bring the client back, even though the Trump administration itself admitted, it deported him by mistake.
[21:30:00]
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: I don't know what there is to appeal. They've admitted that this was an error. They've admitted that they had no legal basis, or factual basis, to deport him, in their court filings.
Now I'm leaving aside what the White House press secretary says. I'm just talking about what's been filed in court.
They sent their lawyer to court today with no evidence, no information, no explanations, no answer.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: The judge kept patiently asking him, over and over again, Why did this happen? Why haven't you brought him back? And over and over again, all he could say is, My client hasn't shared that information with me. SCIUTTO: The -- President Trump's top immigration adviser, Stephen Miller, with some quite strong opinions on immigration in general, went after the judge, personally tonight, saying she's a Marxist who thinks that she is president of El Salvador.
The press secretary suggested tonight to the AP, the judge should contact the President of El Salvador to get your client back.
I want to ask you this. Do you believe this administration might face a court -- might lose in court, right, and then ignore that court's decision, and just barrel ahead, and say, It's not our problem?
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: I'm a lawyer. I have to trust that if the judge's order is not stayed on appeal, which I hope the appeals court will not stay it because there's no reason to, that they will comply with it.
But if they don't comply, we'll be back in front of the judge, asking her to use her full power to force them to comply.
SCIUTTO: This is going to be appealed to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. More Democratic-appointed judges than Republican-appointed judges. Do you believe they will rule in your client's favor?
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: I don't see any reason not to allow this ruling to stand. I don't see any reason to overturn the ruling, because the government admitted, first, that they had no legal basis or factual basis to deport--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: --Mr. Abrego Garcia.
And then in court, when the judge asked the lawyer for the government, Well, why haven't you brought him back yet? His answer was, essentially, I don't know, they haven't told me that.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: So, I just think there's a huge disconnect between their tweets, and what they're saying--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: --from the White House press office versus what they're filing. And what they're filing is nothing at all. They're saying -- the White House press office is saying, they've seen a mountain of evidence that he's MS-13. What they're filing is nothing at all--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: --no evidence whatsoever.
SCIUTTO: I mean--
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: And the judge said, at the outset of the hearing today, I can only go based on what's in the evidence.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And the judge appeared skeptical of the judgment that this was -- that this was warranted. And to your point, even the lawyer, from the Department of Justice, didn't quite have an answer.
Could you just remind people, who are watching here, what the basis, and the quite thin basis, that your client was put on one of those flights, and sent to that horrible prison in El Salvador?
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: Well, they claim it was an accident. I think I'm a little skeptical of that. I don't understand why they even arrested him in the first place, earlier, last month. I don't understand why they sent him to a staging facility, from where flights were taking off. But they say it's an accident.
In the end, it almost doesn't matter whether it was accidental or intentional, because they're clearly admitting it shouldn't have happened. So now you've done something you shouldn't have done. What are you going to do to fix it? It's pretty straightforward to me.
SCIUTTO: Well, we'll see if that holds.
Simon Sandoval-Moshenberg, thanks so much for joining.
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: My pleasure. Good evening.
SCIUTTO: My legal source, Elie Honig, joins me now tonight.
I mean, this is a startling, shocking, I mean, it's hard to come up with the adjective to describe it. Because, I mean, and first of all, these deportations, just in their own right, without due process, you're sending a whole host of folks there. But here's one where even the administration admits the due process failed in effect, right?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes.
SCIUTTO: We sent him by mistake.
And yet they're still fighting this in court.
HONIG: That's what's so remarkable and confounding about this one. There are other deportation cases, where the administration's saying, Well, we were legally justified in what we did. Those are being litigated up now to the Supreme Court. In this particular case, the administration admits, We deported him mistakenly.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: But their official position is, But there's nothing we could do.
Now, let me tell you something.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: They could get him back here if they wanted to, right?
SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.
HONIG: They don't seem to be trying very hard. And they're saying, He's out of our custody. And issuing these challenges, Well, you get him out, Judge.
That's not the way this works.
And the lawyer you just spoke to made a really good point. Looking at the transcript of what happened today in court, that was astonishing. You had a DOJ lawyer--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: --essentially apologizing to the court. And the court said, Well, why didn't your client, meaning, the federal government, why didn't they make some effort to go get him? Who's in charge of this? And the DOJ lawyer, I sort of feel bad for him, but his response was, I don't know, and they won't tell me.
You can't go in there as a DOJ lawyer and just play helpless and play clueless. That is not what this is about.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: So I want to see what happens. I don't think they're going to bring it back by midnight on Monday. And then I want to see what this judge does.
SCIUTTO: Good lord.
Well, I do want to get your take on this other major legal news tonight.
HONIG: Yes.
[21:35:00]
SCIUTTO: And that is the Supreme Court allowing President Trump to temporarily freeze millions of dollars in grants to states. And these are states that are facing teacher shortages, right now. The administration's first win at the High Court.
What struck it -- struck you about this decision? And does it reveal something about how this court will address other executive power cases, which are involved in a lot of these--
HONIG: Yes.
SCIUTTO: --challenges to these EOs?
HONIG: It does.
SCIUTTO: Yes. HONIG: So, this was a five-to-four decision, a win, temporary win, but a win for the Trump administration. It was five conservatives on one side, three liberals, plus Chief Justice Roberts on the other side.
So what this was, there's a lot of freezing and unfreezing here, right? So this -- the Trump administration comes in and freezes this money, $65 million or so in teacher training. Then the district court basically says, No, it's unfrozen. That money can go out. And today the Supreme Court said, No, it's refrozen. It has to stay.
What's really important here is there's a debate back and forth, in the Supreme Court, about what's called the emergency docket. If you've noticed--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: --these decisions are popping up every couple days.
The usual way Supreme Court cases happen, full briefing, full argument, very deliberate. But these cases are happening quick, because we're talking about emergency situations and injunctions.
And there was a debate on the court. The Liberals said, We shouldn't be intervening at this early stage. But the conservative majority said, No, we will if appropriate. And that's important. Because here's what else is pending on the emergency docket. Birthright citizenship.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: The same deportation case we just talked about. And the mass firings of probationary federal employees.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: So stay sharp, because for the next month, we're going to see those opinions come down.
SCIUTTO: But does this show that those opinions will likely go one way or the other, based on the decision--
HONIG: So, I don't--
SCIUTTO: --or is this too narrow to -- to--
HONIG: Yes, I don't think this means Trump is going to win all of them.
SCIUTTO: OK.
HONIG: But I think it shows me that there are enough justices who are willing to rule on these emergency bases--
SCIUTTO: Right.
HONIG: --that they're not going to punt, they're not going to play hands off, that I do think they're going to be taking and ruling on these monumental issues. This is going to be--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: --this month or so, six weeks ahead, is going to be one of the most important--
SCIUTTO: Wow.
HONIG: --stretches we've had, in a long time, in the Supreme Court.
SCIUTTO: Well, that's, well, that's almost an evergreen statement these days.
HONIG: Yes. A whole lot of new ground, Jim-Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Elie Honig, thanks so much.
HONIG: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Coming up. Former President Obama's new message to universities, and to high-profile law firms, targeted aggressively by President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: It's not enough just to say you're for something. You may actually have to do something and possibly sacrifice a little bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Former President Barack Obama rebuking the current President's efforts to reshape the federal government, and urging universities and high-profile law firms, not to back down, but to stand up to Donald Trump's ongoing intense pressure campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: This is the first time I've been speaking publicly for a while. I've been watching a little bit.
It is up to all of us to fix this. It's not going to be--
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: It's not going to be because somebody comes and saves you.
I do think one of the reasons that our commitment to democratic ideals has eroded is that we got pretty comfortable and complacent.
Now we're at one of those moments where, you know what, it's -- it's not enough just to say you're for something. You may actually have to do something and possibly sacrifice a little bit.
So, yes, if you're a law firm being threatened, you might have to say, OK, we will lose some business because we're going to stand for a principle. If you are a university?
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: If you are a university, you may have to say, figure out, Are we, in fact, doing things right?
We say that we're for rule of law. Are we going to stick to that when it's tough, not when it's easy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: My White House insiders are back with me.
And Shelby, I mean, there used to be this old unsaid rule. Past presidents wouldn't criticize their successors. Of course, that's long out the window, particularly since Trump's first term.
But it is notable to see Obama speaking out more. Is that a deliberate effort by him to be more public? And even, it seems somewhat critical of organizations, entities, individuals, who are not standing up to Trump.
TALCOTT: I think it is deliberate. And I think part of the reason it's deliberate is because the former President is seeing that there is no real leader, right now, in his Democratic Party.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
TALCOTT: And it has caused sort of a crisis for the Democratic Party, where you have all of these things that the current President is doing, and then you have lawmakers and, really, the party as a whole, who can't really figure out exactly what to do, to push back on those efforts, and they're sort of floundering, and you're seeing how that has emboldened this current presidency.
And so, I think the former President feels like he has to step up and sort of say something, to try to get Democrats on board, and revved up, and doing something.
SCIUTTO: Dasha, I mean, there's been a lot of criticism, right, from Democrats, of current Democratic leadership and their failure. I mean, think of the storm of criticism against Chuck Schumer, after folding on the budget vote.
[21:45:00]
Is there any progress, right, or movement, or change, into changing those leadership positions, to get more aggressive Democratic voices out there?
BURNS: I mean, the question I keep hearing from Democrats, whether it's operatives or voters, Who is the leader of the Democratic Party? SCIUTTO: Yes.
BURNS: I mean, it shouldn't take Obama coming out, right now, to talk to get--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BURNS: --Democrats up and out of their seats.
There's so much that's happened. Just think about the last two weeks that in the past would have been absolute gifts to Democrats. Think about what happened with Signal. Think about how Republicans said every other sentence on cable, But her emails, But her emails.
There is no unified songbook from which the Democrats are singing right now. And there's a lot of concerns -- I'm hearing a lot of concern from people. But no concerted effort to actually rally people and figure out, How do you get cohesive, and how do you get a message across that everyone is out there, saying?
Because there is opportunity for Democrats, right now. But what I'm hearing, and what I'm seeing, frankly, is that no one's really out there taking it.
SCIUTTO: Yes, and there're going to be elections coming up, right, where it's going to be tested. Those messages are going to be tested, the leadership.
Zolan, in separate remarks, yesterday, Kamala Harris, she spoke about Trump's moves in office, and said they were all too predictable.
Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are seeing organizations stay quiet. We are seeing those who are capitulating to clearly unconstitutional threats.
And these are the things that we are witnessing, each day, in these last few months in our country. And it understandably creates a great sense of fear. Because, you know, there were many things that we knew would happen. Many thing -- I'm not here to say, I told you so.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: I mean, Zolan, she's right. I mean, she's not wrong. And she did speak a lot on the campaign trail about Project 2025, and the exact kinds of steps and strategies that we're seeing play out here. What's the -- been the reception to her -- to her message?
KANNO-YOUNGS: What I think is interesting about the Vice President's message, and President Obama's, is, I don't think the message was just to the Democratic Party. You saw them both also direct this message towards the private sector, to organizations--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
KANNO-YOUNGS: --to law firms as well.
President Trump has been trying to put his MAGA stamp, not just on Congress, not just on the federal government. But he's also -- you've seen capitulation and placating amongst private law firms that have been threatened. You've seen him also try to dictate the hiring practices of companies.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
KANNO-YOUNGS: And of course, you've seen the threats to revoke funding from schools.
It's all aspects of society, with little resistance. And here, you see these leaders trying to rally for some of that resistance.
SCIUTTO: No question. Well, listen, long way to go here. Thanks so much for joining. We appreciate it, and hope you have a good weekend.
Well, we have another story that we have been following here that you should be keeping your eyes open for. And that is the CDC layoffs.
Coming up -- and coming up, and Fareed Zakaria has a special -- CDC layoffs some -- the Trump administration and its Department of Government Efficiency's dramatic cuts to the federal workforce. In his new documentary special, Fareed Zakaria takes us through the conservative movement's long-running war on government.
Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS (voice-over): As he took the oath of office in 1981.
RONALD REAGAN, 40TH U.S. PRESIDENT: I, Ronald Reagan, do solemnly swear.
ZAKARIA (voice-over): Ronald Reagan began his big crusade against government.
REAGAN: So help me, God.
WARREN EARL BURGER, ATTORNEY AND FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES: Congratulations, sir.
(APPLAUSE)
ZAKARIA (voice-over): He believed an ever-growing federal bureaucracy was stifling the American people.
REAGAN: Thank you.
ZAKARIA (voice-over): Culminating in the malaise of the Carter years.
REAGAN: In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.
ZAKARIA (voice-over): Reagan's solution? The most radical attempt to downsize government since the New Deal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ronald Reagan, his supporters hope the new FDR of the right.
ZAKARIA (voice-over): He would not waste any time. Before he even left the Capitol, Reagan signed an executive order to freeze all hiring in the federal government.
Conservatives' hopes was sky-high.
[21:50:00]
But in the end, the Reagan Revolution would fall far short. Big Government got even bigger, and many hardcore conservatives once again felt betrayed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: "The War on Government: A Fareed Zakaria Special" airs this Sunday, at 08:00 p.m., only here on CNN.
And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
SCIUTTO: Sudden mass layoffs, this week, at the nation's top health agency have left the City of Milwaukee on its own tonight, as it grapples with a lead crisis in city schools.
For months now, officials there have been working with a division of the CDC, to screen students, and identify, potentially, dozens of schools that may have exposed young people to lead.
The crisis began when a child was found to have elevated levels of lead in their blood. Investigators zeroed in on lead paint in that child's school. Seven schools were eventually found to have unsafe lead levels, which is toxic to the brain. Even small levels of exposure can lower a child's IQ.
For a school district of 68,000 students, the federal help has been critical. But on Tuesday, the CDC cut some 2,500 workers. Entire divisions and programs gone, disappeared, including the Lead Poisoning Prevention Team helping out in Milwaukee.
Here's how HHS Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., responded yesterday, when asked about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REPORTER: The CDC program, that monitors lead surveillance for kids, was cut. Can you explain the rationale for cutting a program like that, and why that's not an essential service?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: There were some programs that were cuts that are being reinstated. I believe that that's one of them.
Personnel that should not have been cut, were cut. We're reinstating them. And that was always the plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: My source tonight is the Mayor of Milwaukee, Cavalier Johnson.
Mayor, thanks so much for taking the time tonight.
MAYOR CAVALIER JOHNSON, (D) MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN: Nice to be with you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So you got 68,000 students. A 100 schools built before 1978 when it was still legal to actually use lead paint. Can you first help us understand why federal help is essential here, to tackling this crisis, and to protecting these children?
JOHNSON: Yes, absolutely. It's critically important that we have assistance from the federal government.
The Health Department and the City of Milwaukee receives a considerable amount of its funding from federal sources. It will rely on federal partnerships, especially when there are complicated situations, such as the one that we're facing, in Milwaukee Public Schools, with the lead hazards that are affecting kids right now.
And it's unfortunate, really, to hear the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services say that these were just simply cuts, and folks were to be reinstated.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
JOHNSON: This, Jim, is, unfortunately what happens, on the ground, when the Trump administration takes a chainsaw to government, as opposed to taking a scalpel. Kids end up suffering the consequences, like the ones that are suffering in Milwaukee and Wisconsin tonight.
SCIUTTO: Yes, what does that show you about how these cuts are being made? It seems like they made the cut, didn't realize what the effects were, and like, Oh, I guess -- I guess we'll correct that one. It's remarkable to hear that description, coming from the HHS Secretary.
JOHNSON: It's quite remarkable. And it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I would imagine, when a new administration comes in, certainly, they want to make changes. I mean, all of us do. I understand that. I'm a chief elected official, here in the City of Milwaukee, the top-ranking elected official in my city. But you don't come in, and just simply lop off entire departments--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
JOHNSON: --or a significant portion of the departments without using a scalpel in order to do that. Because the consequences could be dire, and that's exactly what we're seeing on the ground, in Milwaukee--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
JOHNSON: --when our Health Department tries to contact our partners at the federal government that we need to work with, in order to solve situations like this. It's unspeakable.
SCIUTTO: The science here, the effects of lead paint are just debilitating. I mean, there's been so much experience, so much study of this in other schools around the country. Do you have any idea, now, of exactly how many children would have been exposed and potentially affected by this?
JOHNSON: Well, there are a number of schools that we have inspected in the City of Milwaukee. My administration's Health Department, working in collaboration with Milwaukee Public Schools. We had to shut a number of schools down.
We've worked with some of our partners on the ground, Children's Wisconsin, or Children's Hospital, Sixteenth Street Community Health Centers, others, to provide clinics for both children and families that may have been exposed to lead--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
JOHNSON: --to make sure that there are no additional health consequences for those young people.
So, it's a situation that we continue to keep an eye on. Fortunately, there haven't been that many young people, who have tested positive for lead. But it's something that we continue to keep our eye on.
SCIUTTO: Yes. But before we go, what do you tell the parents who say, Hey, is it safe for my kids to go to school?
[22:00:00]
JOHNSON: We are leaving no stone unturned. The City of Milwaukee, under my leadership, in collaboration with the new, and we have a brand-new Superintendent for Milwaukee Public Schools, Dr. Brenda Cassellius, we're taking the matter very, very seriously, and we're working to make sure that we address the issue--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
JOHNSON: --for all families, so they're safe (ph).
SCIUTTO: Mayor Cavalier Johnson, of Milwaukee, we do appreciate you joining us tonight.
JOHNSON: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining. I'm Jim Sciutto, in tonight for Kaitlan.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" is up next.
