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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Very "Disappointed" In Putin, Issues 50-Day Ultimatum; Trump On Epstein Fallout: "We're On One Team, MAGA"; Cuomo To Stay In NYC Mayoral Race Despite Losing Dem Primary. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 14, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DEANNE CRISWELL, FORMER FEMA ADMINISTRATOR: You are exactly right, Anderson. During my four years, as Administrator, I never had a state complain about response. Where they get frustrated is in the reimbursement, in the recovery.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes.
CRISWELL: There is lots of paperwork, there's lots of procedures that have to happen. And there are definitely ways that that can be improved.
COOPER: Yes.
CRISWELL: That's where the energy should really be focused on right now.
COOPER: Yes.
Deanne Criswell, thank you. I'm out of time. We'll continue this discussion. Thank you.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: What President Trump just said about President Putin sounds almost nothing like what he was saying just six months ago.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, President Trump is taking a stand against Vladimir Putin in a way that we've rarely, if ever, heard from him before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are very unhappy -- I am -- with Russia. We want to see it end. And I'm disappointed in President Putin, because I thought we would have had a deal two months ago, but it doesn't seem to get there.
I've been hearing so much talk. It's all talk. It's all talk, and then missiles go into Kyiv and kill 60 people. It's got to stop.
I speak to him, a lot, about getting this thing done. And I always hang up, and say, Well, that was a nice phone call, and then missiles are launched into Kyiv or some other city, and I said, Strange. And after that happens three or four times, you say, The talk doesn't mean anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After years of heaping praise on the Russian leader, of touting their personal relationship, of taking Putin's word over his own government's, at times, the scene that played out today, inside the Oval Office, encapsulated a remarkable shift for this President.
To underscore his anger, he's giving Putin an ultimatum, and threatening action that many people, from Capitol Hill, all the way to Kyiv, have been calling for. The President announced a deal to allow NATO to buy American-made weapons, to supply Ukraine on the battlefield, while also threatening economic punishment if Putin fails to reach a peace deal in the next 50 days.
It would mark the first time, and this does mark the first time, that we've seen the President take direct action against Putin's aggression, this term, marking an unmistakable departure from the years of comments like these.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: I respect Putin. He's a strong leader, I can tell you that.
If he says great things about me, I'm going to say great things about him.
One of my best meetings ever was with Vladimir Putin.
Putin meeting was one of the best meetings I've had.
I get along with President Putin.
BILL O'REILLY, AMERICAN COMMENTATOR AND JOURNALIST: Do you respect Putin?
D. TRUMP: I do respect him.
Putin is smart.
He's a very smart guy. He's a very cunning person.
When I got elected, we spoke, and I think we're going to have a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It remains to be seen tonight, how President Putin will respond to President Trump's new threat, and how the President himself will follow through on it.
Questions that I asked his Ambassador to NATO, at the White House, this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: The President is sending defensive weapons to Ukraine.
MATTHEW WHITAKER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Yes.
COLLINS: Is there any plan to send offensive weapons? Is that under consideration?
WHITAKER: Well, you know, so all weapons are both offense and defense. Obviously, air defense is important and critical for the situation, but at the same time, we're not taking anything off the table.
COLLINS: And when it comes to the tariffs that he's threatening to put in place against Russia. Russia imports very little to the United States. So, how do you ensure that it has actual impact?
WHITAKER: Well, it's because they're secondary sanctions. It's sanctions on countries that are buying the oil from Russia. And so, it really it's not about sanctioning Russia. It's about tariffs on countries like India and China that are buying their oil. And it really is going to, I think, dramatically impact the Russian economy.
COLLINS: And how did you decide, how did the President decide, on 50 days?
WHITAKER: You know, we need an end to this war. The slaughter that's happening is unbelievable. Russia has picked up 1 percent of Ukrainian territory in the last 18 months, and they've lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers on the battlefield. The time to end the slaughter is now. The time to end the killing is now. And so, 50 -- 50 days is the appropriate amount of time, because it needs to happen now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my lead source tonight is one of the primary supporters of a bill to sanction Russia, one of -- one with 85 co-sponsors, I should note, in the Senate. Connecticut Democratic senator, Richard Blumenthal is here with me now.
And it's great to have you, Senator.
Just first, on this remarkable shift from President Trump. I mean, looking at that, compared to what he was even just saying when he took office, is quite something. Do you think that he's putting enough pressure on Putin tonight?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I think that it is a remarkable turn and a very positive step. Not only economic sanctions, but also military aid that will be, in effect, sold to NATO, and then provided to Ukraine.
[21:05:00]
But these economic sanctions that he's talking about are good. Our bill is better. He's applying a hammer. We have a sledgehammer. And our bill is also broader, because it applies to the Russia shadow fleet.
I think that we'll know, in 50 days, whether Putin changes his tune. I am not optimistic. I think we should push forward with our bill. 85 co-sponsors. It will have 90 votes if it's given a vote. And I think we need that kind of sledgehammer.
COLLINS: So, you don't think Putin is going to come to the table in the next 50 days, you don't see that happening?
BLUMENTHAL: Given his history -- and I think the President's right. Lot of nice talk, but very, very little in the way of sensible kinds of proposals to Ukraine for any kind of ceasefire or peace talks. So, I have -- I'm pessimistic that Putin will alter his strategy before force is actually applied. He's a thug. He understands force, economic force, or military force.
And our sanctions will be a force multiplier. Because, the Europeans are looking to us, as I saw when we did at Rome, recently, for the Coalition of the Willing, every one of those presidents, prime ministers, thanked Senator Graham and myself, for moving forward with the sanctions bill.
COLLINS: So, do you think your sanctions bill, which, to be clear, would go up to -- it would essentially allow him to go up to basically 500 percent. He was saying today that there's not much difference made above a 100 percent. Do you think it ultimately is going to get a vote?
BLUMENTHAL: I believe it will. And the reason I think it will is that the President was very receptive to the bill today, in tone, maybe not a full-throated endorsement, but also the leadership of the Senate as well as the House, is behind it.
And there are some details, some i's and t's that need to be dotted and crossed, but we are very, very close now. And I think, I hope, within the next month or two, we will have approval by both houses of Congress.
COLLINS: Because Senator -- the Majority Leader, John Thune, had said that your bill could see a vote during this working session. Right now, he says, we'll wait and see over these next 50 days.
Are you worried about what Putin could do in these next 50 days, the damage that he could -- he could inflict on Ukrainian cities?
BLUMENTHAL: I am not only worried, I am heartbroken, about the continued killing, murderous reign of terror, from the skies.
I visited Ukraine. I've seen the apartment buildings and schools and hospitals that have been devastated. I have talked to the children, some of them who were kidnapped. There are 20,000 of them. And Russia ought to be declared a terrorist state, if it doesn't return those children. So, Putin has absolutely no moral compunction about continuing the kind of brutal, barbaric war that he's conducting.
COLLINS: Well, and just on the weapons that they are sending, with the Patriots and the interceptors, to be able to basically help Ukraine defend itself from those Russian missiles.
You had dinner tonight with the NATO Secretary General, who was at the White House with the President today. Was it clear, whether he expects any of these purchases that are going to Ukraine, of weapons, to include anything they don't have already?
BLUMENTHAL: They need more of what they have already. Secretary General has been really heroic, in his leadership, on this issue, talking to President Trump, and being an interlocutory with the different NATO countries.
And what I saw, when I visited with him, and the other NATO leaders, the Prime Minister of England, and President of France, the Prime Minister of Italy, they have different and diverse points of view. But one of the reasons to push forward, with our bill is, to have the unity that they have, show the unity with the President--
COLLINS: Yes.
BLUMENTHAL: --and make sure that sanctions are bulletproof against any kind of legal challenge.
COLLINS: I want to ask you about something else that the President mentioned in the Oval Office today. This comes after an interview that the former President, President Biden, did today, where he told The New York Times that he made the decisions about who to grant clemency to, as he was on his way out of the office, but that the autopen was used to actually sign those pardons.
Trump commented that today, and said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: Sending letters back. That's what an autopen is supposed to be, to write to a young 7-year-old boy that writes to the president, and he wants to be president someday, and he loves America. That's what the autopen is supposed to be. It's not supposed to be for signing major legislation and all other things. No. The autopen -- and I doubt he knew.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, using the autopen is totally legal, I should note. There's a memo from the DOJ that says as much.
But for an authority as great as that one, of granting someone a pardon or clemency, do you think it's appropriate to use autopen? Or should the President sign those themselves, especially when it's smaller numbers of pardons?
[21:10:00]
BLUMENTHAL: I think in a decision of that moment, of that importance, a personal signature is probably a better practice. There were a number of clemencies. I don't know what the President was thinking, when he used or authorized the use of autopen. But one way or the other -- I think this issue is a complete distraction from the really important issues, whether it's Ukraine and defending their freedom, in our national security, inflation and rising prices that continue, other kinds of issues relating to the dismantlement of government that we're watching in real-time, and the threat to our democracy. So, I think it is a distraction.
COLLINS: Senator Blumenthal, thank you. And hopefully, you'll come back when your bill gets a vote, if it gets a vote. Thank you so much for that.
BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Also today, as the President was in the Oval Office with the aforementioned NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutte, on one side, and Vice President JD Vance on the other. Just to make clear, though, the significance of this shift, and what you saw and heard today. Remember what happened about four months ago in that very same spot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: What you're -- what you're speaking about --
D. TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What are you speaking about?
D. TRUMP: And what you're doing is very disrespect -- disrespectful to the country, this country--
ZELENSKYY: I'm really respect your--
D. TRUMP: --that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have.
ZELENSKYY: I'm really respect--
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Have you said, Thank you, once, this entire meeting?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of times.
VANCE: No. In this entire meeting--
ZELENSKYY: Even today.
VANCE: --have you said, Thank you?
ZELENSKYY: Even today.
VANCE: You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October. Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America-- ZELENSKYY: What are you speaking about?
VANCE: --and the President who is trying to save your country.
ZELENSKYY: Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can--
D. TRUMP: He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble.
ZELENSKYY: Can I -- can I -- can I answer?
D. TRUMP: Wait a minute. No. No. You've done a lot of talking.
ZELENSKYY: Can I answer?
D. TRUMP: Your country is in big trouble.
ZELENSKYY: I know.
D. TRUMP: You're not winning.
ZELENSKYY: I know.
D. TRUMP: You're not winning this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Well today, Ukrainian president Zelenskyy did say thank you to President Trump for his, quote, Readiness to support the defense of Ukraine.
I'm joined now by a pair of deeply-sourced reporters and insiders.
The Washington Post's Isaac Arnsdorf. His new book, "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America."
And Jill Dougherty, the former CNN Moscow Bureau Chief.
And it's great to have you both here.
Because, I mean, when you listen to what the President is saying there, and how he's talking about this, and he's saying that Putin's basically all talk and no action, is quite remarkable from where he was, even just two months ago.
ISAAC ARNSDORF, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST, CO- AUTHOR, "2024": Yes, that contrast is really so revealing.
Because usually, a president approaches foreign policy with commitments to ideology, to allies, to principles. And Trump just doesn't really do it that way. And you're seeing, when he thinks Ukraine is a problem, he'll be tough on Ukraine, go over a little bit to Russia. When he thinks Putin is being a problem, now he's being tough on Russia, helping Ukraine. So, he's seeing how he can play people off each other. He's just looking for leverage. And sometimes, it works. But sometimes, I think, as he's finding with Putin, he's dealing with someone who doesn't look at the world that way, doesn't play that way, and that's making it hard to get what he wants.
COLLINS: How do you think Putin is seeing all this, Jill? I mean, watching this play out? And I kind of wonder, though, if he saw it coming, because the President was telegraphing his frustration with him--
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Yes.
COLLINS: --very much so, leading up to this moment.
DOUGHERTY: For a few weeks. Right.
COLLINS: Yes.
DOUGHERTY: But up to that point, a few weeks ago, he wasn't.
So, I think -- you know, I think they know that Trump changes his mind and says various things. So, 50 days is a very long time, and a lot can happen. So, I would tend to think that he will think, Oh, by the end of 50 days, we'll see if Trump actually follows through. In the meantime, I can destroy as much of Ukraine as I possibly can, and I can take land, and I'll be in a better position. At least, that's what I think he would do.
COLLINS: I do think there's a question about the threat, because Trump, for so long, has had the Two weeks, Two weeks, when he's asked how he's going to deal with Putin, and whether or not he's prepared to say whether he was stringing him along and playing him basically.
He did follow through, saying on Monday he'd have a big announcement. He did have that big announcement today.
But do -- is that a factor into all of this?
ARNSDORF: Yes, definitely. I mean, this is going on at the same time as we have this tariff deadline, and we see the stock markets and the world trading partners going, Does he mean it this time? I don't know. He let it slip. Maybe it'll slip again, you know? Is Putin going to play the TACO trade?
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, does Putin, is he watching -- does he watch things like that, Jill, as obviously someone who has studied him and knows kind of how he approaches something. Does he look at other actions, other deadlines Trump has set, and then kind of blew in past?
DOUGHERTY: Oh, he'd have to. I mean, that's their job, in the Kremlin, is to see what the United States is up to. They're fixated on the United States. And I'm sure that they have very close analysis.
[21:15:00] And Putin is a person who tries to keep up with what's happening, and his total approach is, How do I psychologically work here to engage Trump and make him think that I want to do things? It worked for a while. But obviously, something has changed.
And I do think, Kaitlan, that another thing that Putin actually might be worried about is the unity that you saw today. I mean, you had the Secretary General of NATO there. You had the German Defense Minister. Europeans, United States, getting together. Before, they were fighting with each other. At least Trump was insulting them. But now, they're friends. And that could be, I think, worrisome for Putin.
COLLINS: That's a really good point.
Jill Dougherty. Isaac Arnsdorf. Great to have you both here.
Up next today. Deputy FBI Director, Dan Bongino, was at work today after he was noticeably absent on Friday, and there were questions about whether he was even going to show up today. The MAGA revolt over the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case, though, is nowhere near over.
We're going to speak to a former FBI Special Agent, right after this.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, despite President Trump's attempts to tamp down MAGA outrage, over his administration's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, some of his biggest supporters have made clear that they're not ready to move on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER STONE, AMERICAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT AND LOBBYIST: Release all of that grand jury testimony.
ALEX JONES, AMERICAN RADIO HOST: Trump and it is his advisers that have gone with this narrative of them just saying, Forget about it, move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for.
As populist nationalists, commonsense conservatives, whatever you want to call us, Christians, we are not falling to Jedi mind tricks and gaslighting.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): And is there a blackmail list? And are there foreign countries, governments involved? And there's nothing wrong with people continuing to ask that.
CANDACE OWENS, AMERICAN COMMENTATOR AND AUTHOR: What is happening now is it seems like you think your base is stupid. That's how I feel. I feel like Trump thinks his base is stupid. Or, again, because I don't think he's pressing Send, on these messages, the people around him certainly think that Trump is stupid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What we're hearing tonight, from a lot of people in the MAGA base, echoing a call from Laura Loomer to appoint a special counsel to examine the convicted sex offender's case, and also the Trump administration's handling of it.
There's no indication that the Justice Department plans to do that, especially as the President has been defending the Attorney General, as she is coming under fire, from his own base, writing quote, "They're all going after Attorney General Pam Bondi, who is doing a FANTASTIC JOB. We're on one Team, MAGA, and I don't like what's happening."
Sources tell CNN tonight that the President doubled down on his support for Bondi, privately, even calling some of her most vocal critics over the weekend. One of those calls was to the conservative activist, Charlie Kirk, who later, after that phone call, said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE KIRK, HOST, "THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW": Honestly, I'm done talking about Epstein for the time being. I'm going to trust my friends in the administration, I'm going to trust my friends in the government, to do what needs to be done, solve it. Ball's in their hands. I've said plenty this last weekend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I'm told by sources tonight that the President has privately urged his team to let the story die down, telling them that he wants it to go away.
But speaking of who is in the administration, and where the President's loyalty lies, several people inside the White House believe that Dan Bongino has badly miscalculated here.
The President has thrown his support so firmly behind Bondi, and White House officials have hardly spoken to Bongino, directly, over the last several days. Several officials weren't even sure if he was going to show up to work today until he actually did. We did confirm he was there, though.
And as of this morning, no one in the leadership, at the Justice Department, had spoken to Bongino, since last Wednesday, when he implied that he could no longer continue on his position as long as the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, was also there.
My source tonight is the former FBI Assistant -- Special Assistant in Charge, Mike Feinberg, who says he was pressured to resign from the Bureau, earlier this year, at the direction of Dan Bongino.
And I'm glad to have you here, Mike. I want to talk about why you resigned in a moment.
But just, what kind of impact do you think it would be having on the FBI rank-and-file, people who go in there every day, to be openly wondering if their boss, the Deputy Director, is coming into work, if he does still work there.
MIKE FEINBERG, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI: I think, with respect to all the individuals who work at headquarters, whether in an operational division or an administrative function, it's got to be a pretty deleterious situation, when the Deputy Director can just decide, because he's in a bad mood, that he's not going to show up to work for the day.
The Director is very much the public-facing leader of the Bureau. But in terms of day-to-day operations, most of that actually falls on the Deputy's plate. So, if he's going to throw a sort of tantrum, anytime he doesn't like the direction that his superiors at the Department of Justice are urging him to go, the FBI is in for a bit of instability and a bit of trouble.
COLLINS: Yes, and when it comes to what that looks like, every day. I mean, he was back at work today. It seems like, right now, he is not resigning and not being pushed out of this role.
But when you -- when you see the gap, in the relationship, between the leadership at the FBI, and the leadership at the Justice Department, what impact do you think that has?
FEINBERG: It causes a lack of confidence in your most senior managers and leaders at the FBI.
[21:25:00]
I'm not going to tell you that the relationship, between what we refer to as Main Justice, and the individuals at the Hoover Building, was always seamless or frictionless. It wasn't. It was, quite often -- there was a lot of friction, there was a lot of disagreement on how to move forward on sensitive or high profile cases.
But there was never really a doubt by the workforce that all the individuals in those debates, regardless of which building they sat in, they were sober, pragmatic adults who, at the end of the day, wanted the best thing for their country.
What we have now are three individuals, the Attorney General, the Director of the FBI, and the Deputy Director, who are fighting over what seems to me, and I'd imagine most Americans, to be a baseless conspiracy theory that is distracting from the urgent work that the FBI needs to be focusing on.
COLLINS: Well, that was the question that we had asked on Friday, which is, the Deputy Director obviously has a huge job. And just not going into work. Obviously, there are domestic terror potential attacks to monitor, things like that.
But I want you -- you know, we focused on Dan Bongino. I was told, this weekend, the President was also really upset with Kash Patel, which is why he put out that statement, over the weekend, saying he wasn't going to be leaving.
I just want everyone to listen to how the current FBI Director was talking about the Jeffrey Epstein case, back in 2023.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: It's the same thing with Epstein's list. It's like, what the hell are these Republicans doing?
What the hell are the House Republicans doing? They have the majority. You can't get the list? You're going to accept Dick Durbin's word, or whoever that guy is, as to who is on that list and who isn't, and that it can and can't be released? Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, of course, that he is the FBI Director, he says conspiracy theories about a coverup just aren't true, that they never have been.
I mean, you can see why the MAGA base is upset, given what they have been told. and what they've heard from a lot of these officials.
FEINBERG: Yes, there's no small irony here, in that both Bongino and Patel, for the past four to eight years, depending how you date things, used every platform they could, to undermine the objective authority of the Department of Justice and the FBI. There are dozens upon dozens of clips of both of them doing that. Kash Patel wrote four books to undermine the Justice Department, some of which were actually written for children.
And they unleashed this trouble on the institutions. And now that they find they're in charge of the institutions, they can't contain it. This is entirely a mess of their own creation.
COLLINS: Mike Feinberg, great to have your view and your perspective on this. Thank you for joining me.
FEINBERG: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: Also here tonight is deeply-sourced White House Correspondent for The New York Times, Tyler Pager, who is also the co-author of the new book, "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America."
I want you to listen to something that caught the eye and ears of White House officials today, who they're trying to just basically tamp the story down. They want people to stop talking about it.
The President's daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, did an interview, and this is what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARA TRUMP, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DAUGHTER-IN-LAW: He hears all the noise, and he hears all of the consternation out there, and I think he's going to want to set things right as well. So, I believe that there will probably be more coming on this. And I believe anything that they are able to release that doesn't, you know, damage any witnesses or anyone underage or anything like that, I believe they'll probably try to get out sooner rather than later.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I was kind of surprised to hear her say that more is going to be coming, because that's not what the White House has been telegraphing.
TYLER PAGER, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, CO-AUTHOR, "2024": Absolutely not. I think that is a claim that might come back to haunt them a little bit similarly to what Attorney General Pam Bondi said a few months ago, when she said, The client list is sitting on my desk, I'm just waiting to release it.
What we've seen from President Trump is he wants this to go away. He has said that multiple times. He's questioned why people keep talking about this.
We spoke to some sources close to the President today, who said he did not fully grasp how much this was riling the MAGA base.
Because, for all of the attention this is getting on social media, and obviously, the President is an active user of Truth Social, most of his media diet is cable news and print newspapers. He's not in the Twitter -- in the X mentions, looking at his comments on Truth Social. That's not where he's getting a lot of his information, even though his base is spending a lot of time there.
So, I think it has come a little bit of a surprise to him at how much this is really impacting his base. And I think, that comment from his daughter-in-law is going to potentially cause even, this cycle to continue as people demand more information.
COLLINS: Yes, because he's not listening to podcasts for Steve Bannon, or things like that. So, they do have trouble, I think, reaching through to him, to kind of convey what they're worried about.
What have you heard about Dan Bongino, and his future?
[21:30:00]
PAGER: Yes, I think one of the big contrasts, from the first Trump administration to this one, is that the President is not eager to fire people. He doesn't want to have those sort of staff shake-up stories, and the chaos on the personnel front that defined his first four years in office.
And so, we've seen him try to tamp down on some of those concerns. We saw him talk to reporters, before boarding Air Force One, saying, he spoke to Dan Bongino, he was a good man. But he's also clearly very frustrated by this infighting.
So, I think this is a story that's going to play out for the next few days, and we'll see how long they're able to maintain this posture.
COLLINS: Just to going back to what you said a second ago, how Trump views the Epstein stuff. And we've been playing all of these moments, where Kash Patel and Dan Bongino were saying, Let's release the list. Even Vice President JD Vance, before he was Vice President, was saying, Why can't we just release the list?
I want you to listen. Trump was asked on Fox News about the Epstein files, last June. This is what aired on the interview publicly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL CAMPOS-DUFFY, AMERICAN TV PERSONALITY: If you were president, would you declassify -- you can answer yes or no to this.
D. TRUMP: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you declassify the 9/11 files?
D. TRUMP: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you declassify JFK files?
D. TRUMP: Yes.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you--
D. TRUMP: I did -- I did a lot of it.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you declassify the Epstein files?
D. TRUMP: Yes, yes, I would.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: OK, but now listen to the extended version of that sound bite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Would you declassify the Epstein files?
D. TRUMP: Yes, yes, I would.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: All right.
D. TRUMP: I guess, I would. I think that, less so, because you know, you don't know -- you don't want to affect people's lives, if it's phony stuff in there, because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Yes.
D. TRUMP: But I think I would, or at least--
CAMPOS-DUFFY: And do you think that would restore trust? Help restore trust?
D. TRUMP: Yes, I don't know about Epstein so much, as I do the others. Certainly about the way he died, it would be interesting to find out what happened there.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Sure.
D. TRUMP: Because that was a weird situation, and the cameras didn't happen to be working, et cetera, et cetera. But yes, I'd go a long way toward that one
CAMPOS-DUFFY: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Without commenting on the fact that this White House has complained about how other -- interviews with other presidential candidates were edited. I mean, when you hear more of what he had to say there, he sounds a lot more skeptical of releasing the Epstein files.
PAGER: Absolutely. And I think it's a -- it's really interesting to hear that in contrast to JFK and 9/11, these other hot-button issues that have been sort of fodder for a lot of his base, for years, part of this idea that they have spread that, There's this Deep State hiding all these government secrets. And I think that is now coming to roost with all of these online personalities in power and in government now.
I wonder how this will continue to play out. But there's clearly something about this issue that is bothering the President. He's made it very clear, he does not know, and keeps questioning why people are so interested in it, and he wants it to go away.
COLLINS: Yes. Doesn't seem like it is, though.
PAGER: Absolutely not.
COLLINS: Tyler Pager, great to have you and your reporting, as always.
Coming up next for us. What is next for Democrats, as former President Obama is telling them, to, quote, Toughen up. More of what he said, ahead.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, former New York Governor, Andrew Cuomo, says he will continue his fight to be the next Mayor of New York City, following his shocking defeat to Zohran Mamdani, in the Democratic primary, just a few weeks ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW CUOMO, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Hello. I'm Andrew Cuomo. And unless you've been living under a rock, you probably know that the Democratic primary did not go the way I had hoped.
The fight to save our city isn't over. Only 13 percent of New Yorkers voted in the June primary. The general election is in November, and I am in it to win it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The former Governor is now running in the general election as an Independent, and will be on the ballot line under his own Fight and Deliver Party.
If you take a look at this, though, at the top of the hour, right now, as we are here, Mamdani's fundraising link reply to Cuomo's post has gotten more than 31 times the likes that the former Governor's original post got. It's subjecting Cuomo's launch to one of the most mortifying things in the age of social media politics. A ratio. Nobody wants that.
My political sources are here.
Former communications director for the Democratic National Committee, Karen Finney.
And Editor at the National Review, Ramesh Ponnuru.
And it's great to have you both.
Karen, what did you make of the 90-second video from the former Governor today?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISER, HILLARY CLINTON'S 2016 CAMPAIGN: Yes.
COLLINS: And are you surprised he's staying in the race?
FINNEY: I'm not surprised he's staying in the race, because we've been hearing that there are other interests in New York City who would like to see someone other than Eric Adams taking on Mamdani. So, not surprised on that.
Look, I think the issue, though, for Cuomo is going to be, how is he going to run this race between now and the general. What I understand is he wasn't visible the last -- in the primary. People felt like there was too much of a, like air of, I got this, I'm going to walk in and run away with it. Does he do the work? Does that convince voters that he is the right candidate?
And can Mamdani -- I mean, he did a great job in the primary, reaching out to voters, being creative. But now he's got to show that he could be mayor, that he could run one of the most complex, complicated cities in our country with a sprawling budget, and try to bring some of those ideas to fruition.
COLLINS: Yes. How are Republicans watching all this play out?
RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR, NATIONAL REVIEW, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, Republicans are, you know, they have -- they're conflicted as well.
Because, on the one hand, they think Mamdani is good for the Republican Party, not just in New York, but nationally.
[21:40:00]
On the other hand, they also genuinely believe Mamdani would be bad for the city, and therefore would like to see somebody consolidate support and opposition for Mamdani. But that's just not happening, right now, right?
I mean, if Cuomo is running, and the Republican Curtis Sliwa is running, and Eric Adams is all running? It is vanishing, unlike -- vanishingly unlikely that any one of those three wins. And Mamdani has a -- has a pretty much golden ticket.
COLLINS: Which kind of surprises me when we look at House leadership here -- or House and Senate leadership for Democrats. Both of them are from New York. Neither have endorsed Zohran Mamdani. Not Hakeem Jeffries, not Chuck Schumer yet.
Hakeem Jeffries is going to be meeting with him, in Brooklyn, later this week. He said that there are no plans to meet with Eric Adams, or Andrew Cuomo right now.
But what do you make of how that they've been on the sidelines, after he had such a big defeat of Cuomo?
FINNEY: Well, he's not -- he's someone who has, I think, very intentionally run outside of the party. So, I think both from the perspective of his campaign, and for these leaders, I expected that there would be a little bit of distance. I think it's good that they're going to have a meeting, and then they'll decide where they want to be on this.
I mean, to exactly what you just said, there's an awareness that Democratic Socialist title, right, is not the label people are looking for. But at the same point, he's been the leading candidate. And so, he -- you know, they absolutely should meet with him, and kind of kick the tires and see in terms of his ideas and his ability to deliver.
COLLINS: Well, and his win, I think you saw a lot of pundits and political types watching and saying, This is proof that Democrats need to do X, Y and Z, that, You're not listening to the voters.
President Obama was at a private fundraiser, and he had some tough love for Democrats. He said he wants them to toughen up. And in these comments, obtained by CNN, Obama said, at a private fundraiser, quote, "I think it's going to require a little bit less navel-gazing and a little less whining and being in fetal positions." For Democrats to do better.
PONNURU: Well, I mean, I think that he is right, that there has been, let's say, a disorientation on the part of Democrats, ever since the November elections, which I think the breadth of Trump's victory, plus Republicans taking the House and the Senate, was a shocking event for Democrats, and it's taken some time for them to come to grips and come to understand that.
But this is exactly what a political leader, like Obama, would be saying to the troops, which is, OK, we've had that moment. Now it's time. It's time to regroup.
FINNEY: But the other part of what he talked about was the importance of standing up for our values, and particularly in moments like this, when it's hard, that is the moment to do it.
And that is also a message that I think our party needs to hear, because if you look at what's happened, in special elections, in some of these state-led races, Democrats are winning, and these are people who are running on progressive ideas, and so their Democratic voters are also turning out. So, if you look at what's happening, in the states and locally, Democrats are doing quite well.
What they need -- what our national party needs to do, is kind of the version of what we were just talking about. Pay attention to what is the facts on the ground, to the affordability crisis, to the issues that people are talking about, and go where they are, to do it. Because one of the problems Democrats have is, we don't run a permanent campaign. We kind of -- you know, our spending increases six months out, nine months out, and then it drops back off.
COLLINS: Yes. Yes, he said, quote, "Stop looking for the quick fix. Stop looking for the messiah. You have great candidates running races right now. Support those candidates." I mean, you don't hear as much about them, though, as you do a Zohran Mamdani or something.
PONNURU: Well, I think there's an interesting parallel here to what happened in the first Trump term. Where, of course, in 2018, Democrats had an excellent year, especially in the House races, picked up more than 40 seats. All of the attention came to the most left-wing Democrats who won those races. And that, I think, really distorted the Democrats' understanding of themselves, going into the 2020 race.
COLLINS: Yes, we'll see if they take his advice.
Ramesh. Karen. Great to have you both here.
Coming up. He has photographed seven Presidents, over the last four decades and captured some of the most historic images that you've seen. That includes the attempted assassination of President Donald Trump, one year and one day ago. My interview with The New York Times photographer, Doug Mills, is next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Yesterday marked one year, since that terrifying moment in Butler, Pennsylvania, when an attempted assassin opened fire on then- candidate Donald Trump.
One of those iconic images from that day was captured by The New York Times photojournalist, Doug Mills. Trump actually even brought up that picture, just today, inside the Oval Office, as he was meeting with the NATO Secretary General.
Something I spoke with Doug about at the White House today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOUG MILLS, SENIOR PHOTOGRAPHER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: He always calls me out. But today was one of those like, Mr. Secretary -- he pointed to the NATO Secretary, and he said, This is the guy, Doug Mills from The New York Times, who took that famous picture of the bullet, you know? He said, Almost hit me, it came out gray, and then it got a little red on and went past me. But he's the one who captured it. So, it was--
COLLINS: He brought your photo up one year, and one day, after you took that photo inside the Oval Office.
MILLS: Yes.
COLLINS: He's still talking about it with you.
MILLS: He does.
COLLINS: And you've been there for so many -- you know, as a White House photographer, it's such an interesting, job because you're a journalist, just like everyone else. You're just in there in a different capacity. But you're there, watching all of these moments, and all of his little movements, and any changes, and--
MILLS: Oh, yes.
COLLINS: --in his behavior.
MILLS: Yes. That's the great thing.
COLLINS: It's a fascinating way to cover the President.
[21:50:00]
MILLS: It is, because I'm like the fly on the wall. I don't ask questions. I'm kind of innocent. Unless there's a picture he doesn't like, he'll definitely tell me. If he sees a picture, probably on The New York Times, he doesn't like, he'll call me out, I didn't like that picture. But generally, he never says anything. But he's happy, you know.
COLLINS: Sometimes he doesn't like your pictures?
MILLS: Oh yes, of course. Yes, yes.
COLLINS: Can you remember any of the ones he didn't like?
MILLS: Oh yes, yes. When Kavanaugh was selected as Supreme Court nominee, I got some behind-the-scenes access, thankfully. And the next day, it was on the front page.
And we left for England that day. And he was meeting with the Prime Minister of England. And at the end of it, we were walking around, he saw me. He was, Hey, Mills, Mills, hey, Doug, Doug, stop. I was like, Oh no. And he said, I hated that picture on the front page yesterday. I hate it. I hated it. Why did you -- you see my chin? I didn't like that picture. I was like, Sorry, sir, doesn't lie (ph), but it's just, you know.
But that -- that's -- it was all fun and games. We were able to joke about it.
COLLINS: Yes, yes, yes.
MILLS: There've been a couple other times where he's seen something that he doesn't like.
But generally, I mean, he is -- he's the most accessible President I've ever covered, since I've been here. And I've been here since 1983, when Ronald Reagan was second term. So, we have more access to him, and more time with him, than anybody I've photographed here.
COLLINS: And you've been a photographer for decades now. You've covered multiple presidents. You just won a Pulitzer though, for your picture that is incredible from that day, showing the bullet whizzing by Trump, while he was on stage. Do you think that's a career-defining picture for you?
MILLS: I think it has been. And I mean, obviously, I'm very grateful to the Pulitzer Committee for honoring my work. But yes, it's one of those pictures that will stay with my legacy, stay with my -- you know, my career. And people talk about it all the time.
And I was very lucky, Kaitlan, I was extremely lucky to get that picture. And I just happened to have my finger on the shutter when the shots rang out, and kept it down. And my instinct just jumped into me, and photojournalism, part of it just kept going, and I knew not to duck, and.
COLLINS: One way you can see it is there's always imagery of that moment and of that day, up around the White House, and in the East Wing, and in the West Wing. Have you noticed that?
MILLS: I see it every day that I walk through the West Wing. And you see the paintings, you see him pumping his fist, and it brings back memories every time. Luckily -- you know, some of them are sad, some of them are -- I mean, I was thrilled to be able to be part of that event, but sad that everything, the way it unfolded, and somebody lost their life, yes. And the President of the United States was shot in the ear, and I mean.
COLLINS: What does it say to you, though, that he has those images up and wants to remember that, and kind of memorialize it, almost?
MILLS: Right. I think it's a great point. He -- it was obviously a big point in his -- in his campaign too and, a turning point, I would say, because of his surviving it, his -- you know, his resilience. And I think, politically, anybody who sees a man get shot, and running for president, and then stands up and pumps his fist? There are a lot more people that are going to support him because of that.
COLLINS: Yes. Yes.
MILLS: And I think that's -- and to see them around the West Wing. I mean, they're everywhere. I mean, whether it's in the -- in the Mansion, or in the West Wing, you see them on the wall. The paintings, photographs, most of them are paintings. But yes, it's something that I think he thinks about a lot more than we think.
COLLINS: And you obviously were here, shooting Trump during his first term. Have you noticed differences in how he acted, and as president, how he approached the presidency from his first term to a second term?
MILLS: Yes, I've seen a lot -- a lot of difference. And I think his experience from the first four years, and then to be able to step away from it for four years, and then come back into the office. And it definitely -- he's definitely a different person than he was the first four years.
And I think one being president before, and then leaving for four years, but then also to have your life almost taken. He talked about it today, during the prayer event, and he said, you know, This was a year ago where somebody tried to take my life. So. And I think he thinks about it a lot.
COLLINS: Yes.
MILLS: I really do.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And our thanks to Doug Mills, who is truly one of the best in the business.
Up next here for us. The Pentagon just announced there is a new contract with Elon Musk's AI chatbot, one week after we saw that antisemitic meltdown.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Before we go, three things you may have missed today.
The Supreme Court handed President Trump another win, by allowing him to carry out mass layoffs at the Department of Education.
In a blistering dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor called it, quote, "Indefensible" to let Trump take apart an agency that typically and traditionally can only be dismantled by Congress.
President Trump praised the decision as a major victory to parents and students across the country.
[22:00:00] Also, Elon Musk's AI chatbot turned Twitter troll, Grok, is now getting a multimillion dollar deal with the Defense Department, to expand AI capabilities and address national security needs, according to the Pentagon. xAI isn't the only company that's going to get a contract, each with a $200 million ceiling. But this announcement does come just days after Grok's violent and antisemitic online rampage, which the company issued a sweeping update and apology for.
And finally, tonight, a raging wildfire along the Grand Canyon's North Rim has destroyed some 70 structures, including the iconic and historic Grand Canyon Lodge. The Arizona Governor, Katie Hobbs, says she's calling for a federal investigation into the Park Service's handling of the fire, which began with a lightning strike.
Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
