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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
White House Punts To DOJ & FBI On Epstein Files; Trump Admin Releases FBI Records On Martin Luther King Jr.; Trump Officials Blame NYC Immigration Policies For Shooting Of Off-Duty Border Patrol Agent. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 21, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
MONA KOSAR ABDI, HOST & SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, EXTRATV: But what he did is he always reflected on his role with such thoughtfulness and care, and knew what it meant, and what the legacy of the show meant, outside of just the legal issues that he was -- that Bill Cosby brought to the show.
But he always knew the impact that his character had, and he embraced it, even though he had other successful shows that he was part of.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: You know what? And it did have an impact. Malcolm-Jamal Warner, just 54-years-old, that is a tragedy. May his memory be a blessing.
Mona Kosar Abdi, thank you so much for being with us. Really appreciate your time. Big fan of your work.
KOSAR ABDI: Thank you for having me.
BERMAN: All right, a lot going on tonight. The news continues. So, "THE SOURCE" starts right now.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Breaking tonight, the Trump administration releases a massive trove of secret FBI files. Just not those FBI files.
I'm Jim Sciutto in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, the Trump administration has released a mountain of files that have been at the center of conspiracy theories for years. Just not the one his supporters have been clamoring for.
The administration released long-secret FBI records, on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. That was over the objections of Dr. King's own family. We'll have more on what's in those King files in just a moment. But we do have this message posted to Twitter, by MLK's daughter, Bernice King, accompanying a photo of her father, giving a bit of a side-eye there. The caption reads, Now, do the Epstein files.
So, what about those files? The White House, again today, tried to punt any decision to the Department of Justice and the FBI.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The President has said, if the Department of Justice and the FBI want to move forward with releasing any further credible evidence, they should do so. As to why they have, or have not, or will? You should ask the FBI about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The President's inability to control this story made itself evident on his social media feed, over the weekend. He tried, time and time again, to get his supporters to focus on anything not bearing the name, Epstein. At one point, posting, quote, "Nothing will be good enough for the troublemakers and radical left lunatics making the request. It will always be more, more, more."
The President's anger over the coverage of Epstein has led to the White House removing The Wall Street Journal from the press pool covering his upcoming trip to Scotland. That, in addition to Trump becoming the first sitting President to sue a newspaper for its coverage of him, as we reported last week.
The fact that Rupert Murdoch's media empire helped propel the President to the White House seems to no longer matter. Perhaps the rule is, What have you done for me lately?
Six months into his term, press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, insisted today that President Trump, and President Trump alone, gets to decide what counts as MAGA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: The President is the creator and the leader of--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: We'll get that sound for you.
At least a 11 Republican House members seem to have a different opinion. Some of his biggest supporters in Congress continue to push forward with their attempt to force the release of the full Epstein files, something Speaker Johnson insisted that he is going to delay as long as possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We need the administration have the space to do what it is doing.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So no vote -- no vote on this resolution before August recess?
JOHNSON: No. No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: My inside sources are: The Washington Post senior White House reporter, Isaac Arnsdorf. He's one of the authors of "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America."
Tia Mitchell, Washington Bureau Chief for The Atlanta Journal- Constitution.
And Elliot Williams, CNN Legal Analyst, former federal prosecutor.
Thanks so much to all of you. Good to have you on tonight.
Tia, is there any surprise that Trump is releasing the MLK files to perhaps distract from the Epstein files?
TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION: Yes, I mean, I think there's always a surprise, because the contents of his attempt to distract, then come up with new subjects. You know, he went from the Washington Commanders to the MLK files.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MITCHELL: He's bringing up a lot of seemingly random things. And it does, again, come across as he's trying to distract.
What is clear, though, is that there are plenty members of Congress who are not distracted. They are very focused on this issue. And it's really creating yet another fracture, not just among Republicans in Congress, but among Trump's Republican base.
SCIUTTO: I mean, Isaac, it's pretty unseemly, though, to bring up files that the King family itself does not want to release, as a fairly transparent way to distract from the files that you yourself called for releasing for years, but now are deciding, perhaps in your own self-interest, not to release.
ISAAC ARNSDORF, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: We have to remember the FBI's relationship with King. They were trying to destroy him.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
ARNSDORF: And a lot of those files, we imagine, are going to be the surveillance and the dirty tricks that the FBI was doing--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
[21:05:00]
ARNSDORF: --in their effort to discredit King and the Civil Rights Movement.
SCIUTTO: Yes, this was the worst years of J. Edgar Hoover in charge of the FBI.
So, Elliot, help me understand from a legal perspective, if the President can release the King files summarily, why is it somehow just the DOJ and a judge's decision on the Epstein files?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I'm really glad you asked me that, Jim, because it's remarkable, that comment from Karoline Leavitt, in light of the fact that just 96 hours ago, or whatever, we had the President calling for grand jury materials to be released.
You had the White House explicitly directing the Justice Department to take an action. Yet today, they're striking a totally different tune. And there's a very selective thumb on the scale--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WILLIAMS: --from the White House with respect to the Justice Department.
Quite frankly, the answer they should have given all along is, Hey, look, Justice Department, this is up to you. We are the White House. We should stay out of this altogether. If there is a public interest that law enforcement determines can be served by releasing these materials? Let law enforcement do it. And we, the White House, need to stay out of it.
But they've gone back and forth on that issue.
SCIUTTO: So, who's buying this? I mean, you look at the polls, Reuters/Ipsos, the Americans approve, disapprove of how Trump has handled the data. Reuters/Ipsos, 54 to 17 percent approve, disapprove. Quinnipiac, 63 to 17. I mean, those are large numbers, not just Democrats, right, who are saying they disapprove.
MITCHELL: Yes. And to put a finer point on what Elliot just said. Trump made a campaign promise to release the MLK files, just as he's made promises, along the years, to release the Epstein files. And so, it does look like he's more than willing to make good on a promise that serves him, but not so good on a promise that--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MITCHELL: --could have some troubling things.
You know there -- we know that Donald Trump had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And not necessarily that there's any proof that he did anything wrong, but there is this perception that he's avoiding the truth about what was his true relationship, what was the extent of their friendship. And that's why the polling, I think, is so bad.
No, it's not on top of people's minds, the Epstein files.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MITCHELL: It's not necessarily their number one issue. But when you ask them about the issue, they say, Yes, we should release the files. Part of that is because, again, Trump and Trump-supporting Republicans, for years, have been driving the point home that there's something here. There needs to be transparency, and we should do it. So now, American public is saying, Well, you said you should -- you want to do it. Why aren't you doing it?
SCIUTTO: I mean, let's be frank, it wouldn't be the first time the President broke a promise out of apparent self-interest.
Isaac, I have to wonder, though. We do see some wellspring of support in the House and Senate to force some sort of vote on this. That said, we've seen wellsprings of support among Republicans in defiance of this President before, that have dissolved right in the face of either pressure from him or public pressure, or when the votes are actually counted. Is this one that's going to go anywhere?
ARNSDORF: I think the main impact, since Thursday, when The Journal published its scoop, was that Republicans have snapped back into defending Trump. That has been a turning point in quieting the revolt from his base. I don't know if people realize that maybe the files, and things they contain, might be bad for Trump. But they are coming around to defending him again.
SCIUTTO: We'll see if it lasts.
Elliot, I do want to read or play part rather of an interview Erin Burnett just did with Maria Farmer. She, of course, worked with Jeffrey Epstein in the 90s. Says she was sexually assaulted by him and Ghislaine Maxwell.
She also says she once met Donald Trump, in Epstein's office, in the 1990s, when she was about 25-years-old. She does not accuse Mr. Trump of any wrongdoing. Listen to what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA FARMER, EPSTEIN ACCUSER: So I get there, and I'm waiting, it's dark, like,. there's no light on in the offices, and I thought that was really weird.
So, I'm seated against the wall in the main part of the offices, and just waiting for Epstein, and he says, I'll be out in a minute, you know, and he's got the door closed.
And then, a few minutes later, this man walks in, in a business suit, kind of tall, imposing. And I immediately was like, That's Donald Trump. What's he doing here? I'm supposed to be working for Epstein and interviewing with him. Why is Donald Trump here?
And he walked up about, you know, a few feet from me, and just stood over me in a very imposing way, and looked at me like, like he was in on some secret or something. It was really weird, like, smirking, kind of. And I felt threatened, so I made an ugly face.
And when I made that ugly face, Epstein walked out from the offices on this side -- Trump's standing here -- I'm here -- and he walks out of his office, and he goes, Oh no, no, no. He was laughing at me. And he goes, She's not here for you, follow me. Right? And he escorts him in to this other room. [21:10:00]
And I always wondered, Who was she in there? Was someone in there, right? And I have no way of knowing. Nothing.
But I felt very intimidated, because I had on running shorts and I was vulnerable, sweaty, just a nobody, in an office with these two men, that it felt very predatory and uncomfortable.
I have to say that when I made that ugly face, he backed off. It wasn't like he was aggressive after that. But he made a really vulgar comment following. And I don't know if it was like, you know, like locker room talk in the 90s, the way men were. But he made a joke to Epstein, Oh, I thought she was 16.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Again, at the time, Ms. Farmer herself was 25.
CNN reached out to the White House about Farmer's account, and they said, quote, The President was never in Epstein's office. And in fact, the President kicked him out of his club for being a creep.
Given there was no allegation the President committed a crime, though, Elliot, as we look at this, could stories like this be in the files but not in the grand jury transcripts?
WILLIAMS: It depends what we mean when we say, quote-unquote, The files.
SCIUTTO: Right.
WILLIAMS: And I think people who are expecting one smoking gun list or one powerful document are going to be sorely disappointed.
Grand jury transcripts are not going to have much. They're just going to have the bare amount of information it would take to charge someone with a crime, because you want to avoid stories like that coming up--
SCIUTTO: Right.
WILLIAMS: --out about people who are not charged with crimes.
SCIUTTO: So yes, ultimately, hearing from people and hearing their stories will be powerful. But you're going down a dangerous road of providing information that could be law-enforcement sensitive.
SCIUTTO: And yet, there's something, Tia--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
SCIUTTO: --that has led to a quite public 180 by the President, and the White House, and many of his supporters, on these files.
MITCHELL: Yes, I mean, Elliot just mentioned the list. Pam Bondi said she had a list. SCIUTTO: Yes.
MITCHELL: You know what I mean? Again, there are people aligned with President Trump, and even some statements from President Trump himself, alluding to what could be out there. And that's why so many people have questions now.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MITCHELL: Their own statements contributed to these questions.
SCIUTTO: And it appears, Isaac, that the hope of the White House is, Well, if folks get focused on the MLK files for a couple days, maybe this will blow over.
ARNSDORF: And here we are talking about the MLK files.
SCIUTTO: Yes, yes. Well, we're talking about both, to be clear.
Everybody, thanks so much.
As Speaker Johnson tries to buy time before any votes on the Epstein files can be brought to the House floor. In the Senate, Majority Leader John Thune signaled to my colleague, Manu Raju, issue's a non- starter there.
But Republicans, such as Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene are refusing to let it go, tweeting, quote, "Dangling bits of red meat no longer satisfies," and the base wants, quote, "The whole steak dinner and will accept nothing else."
And new tonight, two conservative lawmakers tell CNN, they want to hear former Epstein associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, and Attorney General Pam Bondi testify before Congress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. WARREN DAVIDSON (R-OH): We're led to believe there are going to be some prosecutions. If we're going to prosecute, we assume there's going to be convictions. And I think that's really the disconnect. So, I think it -- really till hearing and then we'll see what happens after that.
SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): I think everybody wants to know the truth, at the end of the day. But, you know, if your name was on that list, and you didn't do anything, you wouldn't want it to be released, since your name is on there, because then you look like you're guilty. Got to make sure that you know that if -- if a list is released, that the names on there are absolutely 100 percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: A source close to Maxwell tells CNN, there has been no discussion about her testifying before Congress.
My next source, Democratic congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania.
Thanks so much for coming tonight.
REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): Good to be with you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So first question, just general, is the House able to vote on any bills at this moment, given the frustration, and it appears some bipartisan frustration with how the Speaker is handling this?
DEAN: Well, what I have just read about the Rules Committee is it looks like we might be in a bit of a shutdown, because the Republicans are not eager to move forward on these rules packages, which are very procedural votes. So, we see that Speaker Johnson is in a world of hurt, unable to corral his group, in order to move these bills forward.
SCIUTTO: Now, we have though seen this Republican Speaker, in a world of hurt, momentarily before Republicans line up and--
DEAN: Cave.
SCIUTTO: --and cave, well, cave, yes.
DEAN: They cave.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Do you expect the same this time?
DEAN: Sadly, I do. There is something different about the Epstein case that has really gotten under the skin of even Republicans who have been very loyal followers to the President. So, I'm not sure about that.
I have to tell you, though, and I think your last panelists just talked about this. This is an extraordinary set of circumstances. The President is under fire from his own base.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
[21:15:00]
DEAN: And I have to tell you, I had to ask people, Why is this? What has happened?
But then I looked at it, and the President and his courtiers have fed his base, and the voters, a steady appetite of conspiracy theories, especially around the Epstein files. And then all of a sudden, there's nothing to see here.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: So, it's one or the other. They were either lying to us and them, at the beginning, of this vile case. There's -- let's not mistake that tremendous harm, grotesque criminality took place, as a result of Mr. Epstein--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: --and those around him.
But then for the President to say, Nothing to see here?
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: There's something very strange.
SCIUTTO: How about for the President tonight to say, Well, how about looking over here, at the MLK files, which appears to be the quite transparent strategy. What's your reaction to that?
DEAN: I'm infuriated. It's distraction after distraction after distraction.
I wish the President would do what I did, when I used to teach writing and rhetoric, as a professor in Philadelphia at a university. I taught MLK's writings. I taught the Letter from Birmingham Jail. I taught what he spoke about with the appalling silence of good people.
To throw out the MLK files--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: --in the midst of this darkness is just one more distraction, from a president who can't stand the truth, he can't stand transparency, and he really doesn't like it when his own Speaker, who has been really a courtier to him, has said, Sure, transparency. JD Vance said, Release the birthday card. He's having a real serious struggle.
But can I say what really aggravates me about all of this?
SCIUTTO: Sure.
DEAN: It's a distraction from extraordinarily grave issues that I know you are covering, CNN is covering, and others are covering. Take a look at the starvation and death in Gaza. The President ought to do his job and be a peacemaker. Bring the hostages home, get us a ceasefire, instead of all of this distraction over his failures.
SCIUTTO: Well, to be pare (ph) on the Epstein case. Democrats could have forced a vote on this for years, right, when they had control of Congress and the White House? Why not urgency then, for the Democratic Party?
DEAN: I actually don't know the answer to that question. What I have fought for all along, and this was years back, was justice for the victims, whether it was bringing a vote or not, but justice for the victims. After all, we're talking about girls as young as 14--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: --from the reporting that we have. These folks, and these are women now, who were victimized then, continue now to be victimized.
So, I fought for justice. I have a bill that I was able to pass, President signed, TAKE IT DOWN, which is about--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: --protecting girl -- predominantly girls and women, although young men and men have been victimized with sextortion and other online horrible things.
So, I don't know about why we didn't bring a vote at that time. What I do know is we want to legislate, to make sure we protect folks. We're talking about pedophilia.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
DEAN: We're talking about protecting children. And we're talking about justice for those who were harmed. I don't know why the Republicans aren't talking about that. Why isn't the President saying, You know what?--
SCIUTTO: Right.
DEAN: --Release all the files, and let's make sure every single one of the victims, hundreds of victims, get justice.
SCIUTTO: And the victims should, should be the focus still.
Congresswoman Dean, we appreciate your advocacy for this issue, and for joining us tonight.
DEAN: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Coming up next. Those FBI files we mentioned, the ones the administration did release, of course, about that man, Martin Luther King Jr. But we're learning about what exactly is in the more than 200,000 pages of records that had been under seal for years.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, the Trump administration has released decades-old FBI records on the surveillance of Civil Rights icon, Martin Luther King Jr. The release comes despite sharp opposition from King's own family, as well as the Civil Rights group he led, until his assassination in 1968. The more than 240,000 pages that had been under a court-ordered seal, since 1977, are now posted on the National Archives website.
But as scholars, history buffs and conspiracy theorists have long- prepared to study those files, for any new information on King's life and assassination, the timing here is key. The disclosure coincides with President Trump's efforts to divert attention away from MAGA's rage over his refusal, so far, to release documents related to the sex trafficking investigation of Jeffrey Epstein. Notable timing. My source tonight is former Democratic senator, and federal prosecutor, Doug Jones.
Thanks so much for joining.
DOUG JONES, FORMER U.S. SENATOR (D-AL): My pleasure, Jim. Thanks. Good to be with you.
SCIUTTO: So, tell me the public value of releasing records from what was often quite aggressive surveillance of a civil rights leader, telephone lines bugged, informants information provided. Why is there a public interest here?
JONES: Jim, I'll be honest with you, I fail to see a lot of the public interest in all of the surveillance activities.
[21:25:00]
That said, if some of that surveillance activity may have led to leads that were going to be used in the investigation of his death, which a lot of them would have been, by the way, and particularly if there were some -- something that connected James Earl Ray, or anyone else that might have been connected to Ray with this assassination? Then, from my standpoint, I do think that there is some public interest.
But I will tell you, I understand exactly where the King family is coming from in this. This is, as I think they have said, Dr. King's been assassinated over and over, over these decades.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
JONES: And it has been a distant effort to embarrass him and the family. And so, I think that there could have been some discretion.
The irony is, the President didn't say, Let's only release pertinent or credible information, as he's done with the Epstein files. He has said, Let's release everything. And I do think with this administration, it's an effort to discredit Dr. King and his family.
SCIUTTO: Well, and tell me about the timing here. The President is going through a massive and quite rare public disagreement with some of his most loyal supporters because he promised to release the Epstein files, and now is not doing so. So then today, 72 hours later or so, after he -- after the bust-up or the dust-up on social media, outcomes these files.
JONES: Right.
SCIUTTO: Is that a clear attempt to distract?
JONES: Of course. Look at everything that the President has done over the last 48 hours. He's just like throwing his ketchup up against the wall. He's trying to get as much to stick, and people to look at the wall as anything else, whether it is the Washington Commanders or the MLK files. There is no question that this is part of a larger distraction. He said he was going to do some of this. But the timing, I think, has not been lost on anybody. The interesting piece of this, though, is that the timing gives more fodder to people to say, Well, go ahead and release the Epstein files.
SCIUTTO: Right.
JONES: It's having the opposite of distracting because people are connecting the dots.
And Jim, let me make sure, I'm clear on one thing. While I certainly understand the value of concern that the King family has, I have always been one to believe that files such as this, to the extent that they don't involve some victims and other things that are there -- should be open. I've been in favor of more files--
SCIUTTO: Right.
JONES: --being opened in the MLK assassination, the JFK and others. I did a bill about opening old civil rights cases, because I do think there's value to study there.
SCIUTTO: Yes, you mentioned the case of Emmett Till, et cetera, I suppose. What folks might want would be some sort of consistent standard, right, or principle applied.
Doug Jones, we do appreciate you joining.
JONES: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Want to bring in now:
Associate Professor of History at Johns Hopkins University, Leah Wright Rigueur.
And former Deputy FBI Director, Andy McCabe.
Good to have you both on.
If I could begin with you, Leah, both King's family, and the civil rights group he co-founded back in 1957, they oppose this release today.
And King's daughter, Bernice, she wrote the following today. We're quoting here. "I wonder why I have to be confronted once again with something that was very confusing and distressing for me as a five- year-old. I am, honestly, not prepared to revisit the gruesome details of this painful history. For me, there is no real value in it; there is only reliving the trauma."
In your view, is there no real value in this release as well, do you think?
LEAH WRIGHT RIGUEUR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Well, I think part of it, with the King family and with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and the King organization is trying to stress, is the nature by which these things have been released.
The King family had asked that the restrictions on the collection be held until 2027. That was the original agreement. They also asked that when the documents came out, that the family and The King Center be given the opportunity to work with scholars and historians, and trained officials, to go through the documents and really see what was in there.
Now remember, this is not the first time that those documents, and that there has been an investigation by the federal government into the King assassination, or into Martin Luther King Jr. So, part of what the King family is reacting to is the fact that in 1998, there was another federal investigation into Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination.
During the 1970s, there were a number of investigation, congressional investigations and legislative investigations, into the harassment that was directed, the campaign of harassment, through COINTELPRO and through the FBI, that was directed at Martin Luther King Jr.
[21:30:00]
So, this is something that the King family has had to relive over and over and over again. And all they have asked for is the respect and the dignity, as victims themselves, in order to be able to process their father's death, but also to work through it with people that are actually trained to go through the materials. Not for it just to be thrown out into the greater population, without rhyme or reason or care.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
Andy, it's long been established that the then-Director of the FBI, that the FBI -- J. Edgar Hoover, this is one of the most difficult times in the Bureau, given how aggressive his investigations were, including of Martin Luther King.
Is there investigative value in this, right? I mean, are there unanswered questions about the assassination that academics and others slews should be going over?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: You know, I never discourage academics and people who are interested enough to devote their time and attention to it, to -- I'd never suggest they should look away from it.
But on an official level, I think particularly after the 1998 kind of re-investigation--
SCIUTTO: Right.
MCCABE: --when DOJ drew the conclusion that there was nothing, there was nothing there to disturb the conviction of James Earl Ray? I don't think there's much of investigative value in doing this. But I will say, I think there is a great value that maybe not -- not the one that people are immediately seeing in this release, and that is particularly the records of FBI malfeasance under Director Hoover. This is the, in my view, the darkest period of the FBI--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MCCABE: --and so important that we take the lesson here. Which is a bit ironic coming from this administration.
The lesson to be learned here is there was no independence of the FBI under J. Edgar Hoover. J. Edgar Hoover did the bidding of every president he ever served. He used the power of the FBI to collect political intelligence for every single president, of both parties, that he ever served. And in the process of doing so, he accrued such enormous power for himself that he could do things--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MCCABE: --like, terrorize Martin Luther King, because he was afraid of the civil rights movement, he was erroneously labeling him a communist and surveilling, he and all of his colleagues, in a desperate attempt to prove that case which didn't exist.
That's what happens--
SCIUTTO: Right.
MCCABE: --when the FBI is too close to politics.
SCIUTTO: So, in other words, not just oversight of that period, to expose the wrongs. But are you saying that that could be a lesson of the need for oversight today?
MCCABE: Absolutely.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MCCABE: Absolutely. And it should confirm for us what we learned through the Church Committee and the Pike Committee, that what the ideal situation, whether it's a Republican administration or a Democratic one, is that the FBI and the Department of Justice operate with some independence from the White House--
SCIUTTO: Right.
MCCABE: --independence -- separated from the political whims of the President.
SCIUTTO: So they're not a tool of whoever's in office.
MCCABE: Exactly. Justice should serve justice only.
SCIUTTO: Yes. No fear or favor.
MCCABE: That's right. SCIUTTO: Andy McCabe. Leah Wright Rigueur. Thanks so much to both of you.
Coming up next. Another report of the Israeli military firing on crowds of hungry people simply trying to get food. What we're learning, and where do ceasefire talks stand?
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, the Palestinian health ministry says at least 73 people were killed by Israeli gunfire on one day, Sunday, is one of the highest reported death tolls in a series of recent incidents, where Palestinians have been killed simply seeking food.
I want to warn you, the video you are about to see from Sunday is disturbing. It shows medical teams racing to the victims, some of them children, into Al-Shifa Hospital. The hospital's director tells CNN, the facility is in a catastrophic state over the onslaught of injured and starving civilians.
Israel says IDF soldiers fired their weapons to, quote, Remove an immediate threat.
But, as I mentioned, this is not an isolated incident. The Palestinian health ministry says at least 1,000 people have been killed while attempting to seek aid, just since May.
Multiple U.N. assessments say food is extremely scarce inside Gaza, leading to starvation among the population. And aid organizations are still mostly restricted from entering the enclave, with Israel saying that's to stop Hamas from stealing supplies.
In a new statement, foreign ministers from 25 western nations accuse Israel of slow-walking aid into Gaza, deliberately, saying, quote, "The Israeli government's aid delivery model is dangerous, fuels instability and deprives Gazans of human dignity... The Israeli government's denial of essential humanitarian assistance to the civilian population is unacceptable. Israel must comply with its obligations under international humanitarian law."
My sources tonight:
David Sanger of The New York Times.
And Brett McGurk, who was the lead negotiator on the Gaza ceasefire and hostage release deal under the Biden administration.
Good to have you both here.
David, I want to play Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu's answer to these criticisms today, which has been a consistent one we've heard from Israeli officials for some time. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KYLE FORGEARD, CO-HOST, FULL SEND PODCAST: Why do they say Israel's, like, starving the people of Gaza?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Well, because we're trying to get the food in, and we let food trucks in. And guess what happens when we let them in?
[21:40:00]
Hamas steals the food, takes the good chunk for itself, then sells at inflated prices. They jack up the prices, and then they sell the food to its population, to its hungry population, if they give them at all, and then use the money that they take from their own people, to recruit more killers into their terror machine. That's what happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: I've spoken to aid agencies repeatedly. They told me two things. That the gross amount of aid going in is simply not enough for the population, one. And two, that Hamas does not steal the majority of the aid. It's a small portion, in their experience.
Does the Prime Minister's explanation there hold up to the facts?
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE AND NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "NEW COLD WARS": So, the Prime Minister has been saying this now for, you know, nearly two years, right? And they are now distributing the food through an organization, an American-led organization, that Israelis essentially put together.
The central problem here, in my view, Jim, is they did not have a plan for governance once they -- once the Israelis essentially took over Gaza. And if you don't have a plan for who's governing the place, then you don't have a plan for the environment in which you're going to be distributing this food.
So instead, they're bringing these groups in. They're getting the violence. For some reason, the Israelis are not using riot control stuff. They're shooting real bullets.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
SANGER: And you're seeing the result here.
They didn't want to have the Palestinian Authority run the place, but they also couldn't put together an Arab group, you know, Arab nations, to go do it. And so, the only governing that they have going on there now is the Israeli military showing up. And guess what? You get situations like this.
SCIUTTO: Brett, you've been deeply involved in these negotiations for months, years, in fact. Is this a deliberate effort to, in effect, keep anyone from being strong enough to rule Gaza?
BRETT MCGURK, FMR. WHITE HOUSE COORDINATOR FOR MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA, SERVED AS SENIOR ADVISER TO LAST FOUR PRESIDENTS, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think, look, it's an awful problem. I've never worked on a worse problem. It's horrific in every dimension.
And -- but where we are right now. CNN reported today, there's an offer on the table. Israel's accepted it. Supported by Egypt and Qatar. It's on the table. Hamas -- we're waiting for Hamas' answer.
And this is what happened -- the juxtaposition between the horrific situation in Gaza, and the pace of these negotiations, and the pace at which Hamas undertakes these negotiations, is just outrageous. I mean, I've dealt with this repeatedly. We had a deal in May. Israel accepted it. Hamas answered six weeks later, said Yes, but, with massive changes. We had a deal in August. Israel accepted it. Hamas never answered. This continues to happen.
Right now, we have to stop this war. This war is horrific. If Hamas releases 10 hostages, you have a 60-day ceasefire, I think the war will end.
And we can talk about what David just mentioned. We did an awful lot of work on who's going to come into Gaza. We talked to Arab forces. We did a lot of planning, including with CENTCOM. A lot of the stuff is ready to go.
But Hamas, to this day, has said, their core demand, they will maintain security control in Gaza. They will fight anybody that comes in. PA -- we had a Palestinian civil war back in 2005, they're ready to fight them again.
So, you have this core problem. But don't get me wrong, this war has to stop, it has to end.
SCIUTTO: And I'm not going to give--
MCGURK: And the path to ending it is through that deal.
SCIUTTO: I'm not going to give Hamas any credit. It's a terrorist organization.
But I spoke to the former head of Israeli military intelligence on Friday, who said -- he accused the Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu of prolonging the war out of his own political interests. Is there any -- is there any -- do you give any credence to that criticism?
MCGURK: I mean, I dealt with this day in and day out. And the Israeli government has a number of priorities. Did they ever like, say the hostage deal is the number one priority, given everything else? I can't say that.
Did we ever have a time in which we were able to say, Hamas is a yes, we have a deal, war is going to stop, and then Israel said, No? No. We've had multiple times Israel said, Yes, we have a deal, and Hamas has said, No. And that's where we are right now. This war could stop yesterday. It could stop last week.
We have to stop the war. We have to get this deal. And right now, all pressure, all pressure, right now, should be on Israel.
I don't know what's going on here. I'm not involved in this anymore. These are horrific scenes. That should not be happening.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MCGURK: But all pressure should be on Israel to fix that, get the aid in, and also on Hamas to get the deal.
And just one thing, Sheikh Mohammed from Qatar, had lunch or dinner with the President, last week. The Qataris have to put all pressure on Hamas, to take the deal, as the U.S. is putting all pressure on Israel to get to where I think we are now. They basically caved on a number of issues, and it's now on Hamas to take it.
SCIUTTO: Brett. David. Thanks so much for joining us.
Coming up next. Flood the zone. The Trump administration puts a so- called sanctuary city on notice. My source tonight, CNN's Priscilla Alvarez with her latest reporting.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, the Trump administration is promising to flood the zone with ICE agents in New York City after an off-duty Border Patrol officer was shot in Manhattan, just over the weekend.
DHS released this video of the robbery gone wrong. Officials say the suspect, seen there in a white T-shirt, and his accomplice in red, both entered the country illegally, one in 2022, the other in 2023, both had criminal records. They are now in custody.
But today, top Trump officials argued that if not for the city's immigration policies, those men would have been deported a long time ago.
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S BORDER CZAR: Sanctuary cities are sanctuaries for criminals. President Trump is not going to tolerate it. And I'll work every day with Secretary Noem to make sure we get as many bad guys, illegal aliens, out of this country that we can.
KRISTI NOEM, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: What we'll do in a city like this is we'll double down. We'll put more agents here. We'll put more personnel here. We'll give them more equipment, more training for situations, where they may have to go into a dangerous neighborhood where local law enforcement won't be there to have their backs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Officials say the 42-year-old officer who was shot is in stable condition tonight, is expected to survive, and there is no indication that he was targeted because of his job.
My source tonight is CNN's Priscilla Alvarez.
So Priscilla, I wonder what a stepped-up ICE operation would look like, in New York City. And this would be, one could imagine, quite an incendiary move there.
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, and you can tell that this is a priority for the administration simply by who attended that press conference. Both the Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
ALVAREZ: --and White House border czar, Tom Homan.
Now, it is no secret that the administration is deeply frustrated with sanctuary policies. They don't really have a clear definition. But generally, it means that local police departments limit immigration -- or limit cooperation with federal immigration enforcement.
SCIUTTO: Right.
ALVAREZ: So, what could this look like in the next phase? Well, there's already ICE agents who are carrying out enforcement in New York City. If they were to show up in bigger numbers? Well, then you may have images that are similar to Los Angeles, which, as we know, was a touchpoint for this administration.
SCIUTTO: Sure.
ALVAREZ: But this is also a time, where they have personnel, all over the country, trying to reach a White House-imposed goal of 30 -- 3,000 daily arrests. That is not easy.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
ALVAREZ: So, if you're shifting personnel, that can affect their numbers. Now, that would generally be the answer. But now that they are going to have a lot more money to work with, they may be able to bolster their personnel.
But this is certainly something that the administration is doubling down on, with sanctuary policies, and now New York City.
SCIUTTO: And one can imagine, at least the ingredients for protests in the midst of some of those depending on where those ICE agents operate, and how they behave when they operate, right, with the masks and some of the physical force used.
You have new reporting on the $75 billion ICE is about to get from the mega bill. Tell us what you're learning.
ALVAREZ: Well, and just to your point there, Jim. CNN polling has shown that the American public is paying attention.
SCIUTTO: Right. ALVAREZ: And they're not always liking what they're seeing.
SCIUTTO: Right.
ALVAREZ: In fact, and the number of Americans who oppose what Trump is doing has gone up. So, we'll see how this moves forward.
But in terms of the money, this is historic money. This would make ICE the most well-funded police force in the federal government, over the next four years. That has never been the case for Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
So, I spoke to White House border czar, Tom Homan, about this. They're working on acting on this quickly, particularly with detention centers and with personnel. They have $45 billion to work with, when it comes to expanding immigrant detention.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
ALVAREZ: That means doubling where they are now. He wants to get to a 100,000 beds by the end of the year. That means working with private contractors to do that work, a conversation that he is having on a daily basis. And recruiting more personnel, as you heard there.
Already, last week, they put out a memo to those officers who retired from the workforce to come back, offering them bonuses and other financial incentives. So, you can see how this is starting to come together--
SCIUTTO: Sure.
ALVAREZ: --how they're trying to ramp up to get to those 1 million deportations that they want to see, over the course of a year. But this is something that they have never had before, this much money--
SCIUTTO: Right.
ALVAREZ: --and it is going to supercharge their enforcement.
SCIUTTO: It's a bigger budget than many nations' militaries around the world, we should note.
Priscilla Alvarez, thanks so much.
Coming up next. A Delta Air Lines regional jet forced to make a hard turn to avoid colliding with that B-52 bomber while landing in North Dakota. What the pilot told his passengers? Coming up.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: And three stories, before we go.
A close call, between a plane full of passengers, and an Air Force B- 52 bomber, is now under investigation. As new video appears to show the Delta regional jet coming in for a landing in Minot, North Carolina -- North Dakota, rather, just as that bomber was conducting a flyover at a nearby State Fair, Friday night. That prompted the pilot to make a hard turn to avoid a collision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For those of you on the right hand side you probably saw the airplane kind of sort of coming at us.
It caught me by surprise. This is not normal at all.
I felt that was the safest thing to do to turn behind it. So sorry about the aggressive maneuver.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Not normal at all, he said.
Also, the White House says President Trump is serious about his threat to derail a deal for the Washington Commanders to build a new stadium, here in Washington, if the NFL team will not change its name back to the Redskins. It's unclear how, or even if, he would be able to hold up that stadium deal.
And tonight, Hollywood is mourning the death of actor and Grammy Award winner, Malcolm-Jamal Warner, best-known for playing Theo Huxtable on "The Cosby Show." Warner died Sunday, in what authorities say was a drowning accident in Costa Rica, where he was vacationing with his family. He was just 54-years-old.
Fans have flooded social media with their favorite memories of the Huxtables' only son.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
MALCOLM-JAMAL WARNER, ACTOR, "THE COSBY SHOW": (As Theodore Huxtable): What is this?
(LAUGHTER)
WARNER: (As Theodore Huxtable): Is this my shirt? Is this the shirt I paid $30 for? Is this the shirt they're supposed to think is a Gordon Gartrell?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you like it?
WARNER: (As Theodore Huxtable): Ask me the question again.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don't like it? WARNER: (As Theodore Huxtable): I hate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Remember that show so well. I'm so sorry for him and his family.
And thanks so much to all of you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
