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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Struggles To Divert Attention From Epstein Story; Obama Issues Rare Rebuke Over Trump's "Outrageous" Claims; New Poll: Only 19 Percent Of Americans Approve Of Dems In Congress. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 22, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
HENRY ROLLINS, FRIEND OF OZZY OSBOURNE, FORMER FRONTMAN, BLACK FLAG: And the four members of Black Sabbath, Geezer Butler, Bill Ward, Tony Iommi, and Ozzy Osbourne have been friends since you and -- before you and I have been alive, pretty much.
And they got to be together, the four guys, one more time, in front of fans who truly love them. And it's a love letter from the audience to the band, and the band to the audience, and I don't think that could have gone better. It feels -- like two weeks later, the man is gone. And to do it in your hometown, I just think it's, it's just perfect.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: What a blessing for all of them.
Henry Rollins, thanks so much for being with us. And again, our condolences to you.
ROLLINS: Thank you.
BERMAN: The news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, newly-discovered pictures and video of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein in the 1990s, as lawmakers head home early to completely avoid the topic.
I'm Jim Sciutto in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
All right, so stop me if you've heard this one before. President Trump trying and failing, once again, to divert attention away from the Jeffrey Epstein files. In fact, things are getting only more complicated for the President tonight, as he's drawing new attention to his past relationship with the infamous late sex offender. Trump has not been accused of any wrongdoing related to Epstein. It is his response to this saga that has brought renewed attention, to the ties between the two men.
And tonight, CNN's KFILE has rediscovered photos and video that shed fresh light on the relationship that lasted for years. We're going to show you those in just a moment.
The President's attempts to calm the clamor, among his supporters, took a pair of legal twists today.
First, a source tells CNN that Epstein's confidante, and convicted sex trafficker, Ghislaine Maxwell, will oppose the administration's efforts to unseal some grand jury materials. The judge overseeing the case told the administration, they will need more specifics to justify the move, more specific than the President is under political pressure.
Second, the President's former personal attorney, and now number two at the Department of Justice, Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, says he wants to interview Maxwell, and has now reached out to her attorneys. Congressional Republicans, meantime, are calling for Maxwell to publicly testify.
Those developments led the President, once again, to face questions about Epstein, as he sat in front of another world leader in the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Your Deputy Attorney General has reached out to Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney asking for an interview.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes, I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be sounds appropriate to do, yes.
I didn't know that they were going to do it. I don't really follow that too much. It's, it's sort of a witch-hunt, just a continuation of the witch-hunt.
The witch-hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama, absolutely cold. Tulsi Gabbard. What they did to this country, in 2016, starting in 2016, but going up, all the way, going up to 2020 in the election. They tried to rig the election, and they got caught. And there should be very severe consequences for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: That attempt by Trump to shift the focus on to yet another uncorroborated conspiracy theory was enough to prompt a rare public response from former President Obama himself. I've got the perfect source on that news, just coming up.
But it's just the latest wild accusation to come from the President in the weeks he's been desperately trying to shift the focus on to anything else.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?
I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody.
I call it the Epstein hoax. Takes a lot of time and effort. Instead of talking about the great achievements we've had. Instead of talking about the things we've achieved.
The scandal you should be talking about is the autopen.
These are the things that they should be talking about, and that's what you should be talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Well, the Speaker of the House, not even trying to shift the conversation anymore. Mike Johnson, instead, choosing to shut the House down, rather than face a vote, he would not be able to stop on releasing all of the Epstein files.
It's an effort being led by a band of conservative Republicans, we should note. But Johnson is apparently pretending that it's the Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): What we refuse to do is participate in another one of the Democrats' political games. This is a serious matter. We are not going to let them use this as a political battering ram.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Remember, it was Republicans who voted for that release as well.
[21:05:00]
Now to that CNN exclusive. Recently-rediscovered photos of Jeffrey Epstein, shedding new light on his relationship with Donald Trump. Trump has tried to distance himself from Epstein. But one of the photos KFILE found confirms that he actually attended Trump's wedding to Marla Maples, in 1993.
This is the proof of Epstein at Trump's wedding at The Plaza Hotel, in New York, in December 1993.
(GRAPHIC IS SHOWN OF A NEWLY UNEARTHED PHOTO OF JEFFREY EPSTEIN AT DONALD TRUMP'S WEDDING)
SCIUTTO: In this photo, you can see him there, entering the hotel.
(GRAPHIC IS SHOWN OF DONALD TRUMP AND MARLA MAPLES AT THEIR WEDDING)
SCIUTTO: And for comparison, this is a photo of Trump and Marla Maples at that same location. And you could see that the background there, with that archway, they match.
KFILE's Andrew Kaczynski joins us now.
Andrew, a significant development in establishing the relationship between Trump and Epstein.
ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN KFILE SENIOR EDITOR: Yes, it is.
And Trump's wedding to Marla Maples, in 1993, this was dubbed the wedding of the century, by media, at the time. And although we've known that Trump and Epstein were friends, during this time period, this is actually the first time it's been reported that Trump actually invited Epstein to his wedding.
This is, we should note, more than a decade before the first allegations of sex trafficking against Epstein. But as you know, Trump's past relationship with Epstein has been under the microscope recently.
Now, besides that one photo of Epstein entering the reception at The Plaza Hotel, we can also see him in the background of another pick. That's Howard Stern on the far right, along with Robin Leach from "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous." And Epstein, you can see right there, is behind them, almost photo-bombing them.
We also found this, from just a few months earlier. Donald Trump, with two of his children, talking to Jeffrey Epstein. That is the opening of the Harley-Davidson Cafe, in New York, in October 1993. You can see Ivanka there. She would have been just about to turn 12-years-old, at that time.
SCIUTTO: And Andy, you also found some later video of Trump and Epstein speaking that has never been surfaced before as well. Tell us about that.
KACZYNSKI: Well, that's exactly right. This is from 1999. This video has never been seen in this context before. It shows Trump talking to Jeffrey Epstein, just before models were hitting the runway at the Victoria Secret Fashion Show, in New York, in 1999. The only other video that we've seen of these two men together was from seven years before.
Trump is at the show with Melania, who is, of course, first lady now, and he's seated just a few seats down from Epstein. You can actually see them chatting during the show as well.
Allegations that Epstein sexually abused underage girls did not surface until 2005, years after this video had shot. Now, Trump had a falling out with Epstein in the mid-2000s. That was reportedly over a real estate deal.
SCIUTTO: So, you actually called President Trump, directly, to ask him about this story?
KACZYNSKI: Yes, we weren't on the phone very long. It only lasted about 30 seconds. But when I got him on the phone, I asked him about the wedding photos. And the first thing he did -- said was he kind of paused, and then said, You've got to be kidding me. He then called CNN, and me, Fake news, a few times, and then he hung up the phone.
Now, in a statement to CNN, White House Communications Director, Steven Cheung, said this. These are nothing more than out-of-context frame grabs of innocuous videos and pictures of widely attended events to disgustingly infer something nefarious. The fact is that the President kicked him out of his club for being a creep.
SCIUTTO: Andrew Kaczynski, thanks so much for the reporting.
My inside sources tonight are:
Semafor's Shelby Talcott.
And The New York Times' Tyler Pager, co-author of the new book, "2024: How Trump Retook the White House and the Democrats Lost America."
Also with us, former Trump White House communications director, Alyssa Farah Griffin.
Good to have you on.
Alyssa, I'll begin with you.
Because, just moments ago, the President, he was speaking to congressional Republicans about the Epstein story. And this is him, claiming that this is actually good for him. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have the best numbers I've ever had. You know, it's amazing, I watch people on television, Well, what about Donald Trump's polling numbers? Yes, they're the best numbers I've ever had. And with this made-up hoax that they're talking about, my numbers have gone up four and five points. It's, they want to do anything to get us off the subject of making America great again, and we're not going to put up with it.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Alyssa, there is certainly some history of his base rallying around him, when they see him as being attacked. Do you think that this story, though, is one that's actually helping him, as he says?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WH COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: So, listen, the Epstein saga has somehow fractured Trump's base more than really any drama that he's had since he came down the golden escalator, in 2015. And the reason why, is this has kind of been a cause du jour for many among MAGA--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: --is getting to the bottom of this sex trafficking ring.
And the thing I would say is this, is congressional Republicans are rallying around him. There have been some efforts, there's discharge petitions to get more information. But you should assume anything you see from the House Republican Conference especially, is done in coordination with the Trump White House. It's not really a separate effort. [21:10:00]
But what I'm paying attention to is where are parts of the MAGA base that are newer to the fold? Some of these -- these new voters who came in this cycle, people who are listening to the Joe Rogans of the world--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: --to the Andrew Schulzes, and who cared about this issue, who now feel alienated and lied to by a politician again. That's where his numbers go down.
It doesn't matter for Trump, because he doesn't need to run again. But you know who it does matter for, are those members of Congress who are up in the midterms.
SCIUTTO: It's a good point, a lot of them young -- young voters as well, which helped them in the last cycle.
Tyler, to be fair, some Republicans in the House are saying, quite publicly, they don't like the Speaker's decision to shut things down. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): I don't think this issue is going away over August. I think that was the admonition of our Speaker in there, was just sort of stick your head in the sand.
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): Making some mistake. I think we just get on with it. Let's get on with it.
REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): That's not going to die down. I know. If you assume that, the public decides that anyway. I don't assume anything. Particularly with this, you had -- this transcends politics.
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Hopefully by the time we come back, everybody will know what the government has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Now, to be fair, Tyler, you've also seen cases, where Republicans disagree with the President, and then they line up behind him. But is this one where they're more likely to continue to push for disclosure here?
TYLER PAGER, CO-AUTHOR, "2024: HOW TRUMP RETOOK THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE DEMOCRATS LOST AMERICA," WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, most of those men, in fact, are many of those who have criticized the President on legislation, and then ultimately fallen in line.
SCIUTTO: Right.
PAGER: So, I think those caveats are important. I think one of the things that we have to see is just how this story keeps developing. Each time there is a new revelation, like the one you just played, is giving further ammunition to some of the President's critics, and even some of his supporters who just want more transparency.
And clearly, the President, and his allies in Congress are trying to tamp down, trying to hope this story just loses oxygen. And I think that's some of the frustration we're seeing from Democrats. As Hunter Biden pops up, and others sort of bring up different storylines, they want to try to keep focused on this.
And I think we've seen the fervency in the base, over this issue, that it seems unlikely it will just disappear. The question is whether the heat comes off the President a little bit. He's going on an international trip, this week. He's going to do everything to try to move on. But each time there's this drip, drip, drip of a new revelation, it brings it right back to the center.
SCIUTTO: Yes, without a Wall Street Journal reporter, by the way, because he's banned them from the trip--
PAGER: Yes.
SCIUTTO: --because of the story they published on Friday.
It's funny, I think you and I were talking about this the other day. We were saying that there was some fear within the President's own camp, that there might be other shoes to drop that establish the relationship.
SHELBY TALCOTT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, SEMAFOR: Yes, and again, we've known for a long time, when I talk to White House officials, they always reiterate, We've always known that the President talked to Jeffrey Epstein, that he was friends with him prior to these allegations coming out.
But I think the big thing here is how the White House, and the DOJ, sort of handled this has caused it all to come out again, and then other new information, like some of these pictures, to come out again. They don't want the focus to be on Trump's relationship with Epstein, despite the fact that there's no sort of nefarious allegations around that. They don't want that. They want this to move on.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
TALCOTT: But the fact of the matter is, when I talk to Trump's base, who is focusing on this, one thing that they keep pointing out to me is the argument that if they had just handled this differently, if they had released more documents, unsealed more information, then we wouldn't be having this discussion that more directly focuses on the President.
SCIUTTO: Alyssa, you, of course, worked for Mark Meadows. You worked for Jim Jordan in the House. Have you seen House leadership shut down, basically shut the offices, right, rather than deal with their own members? I mean Republicans by voice vote, at least earlier today, they wanted to see this move forward.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes, it really didn't make sense, strategically, the Speaker's decision to basically break early to August recess. The votes are still going to be there, when they come back in September. And I would argue that the facts might get worse. Who knows what KFILE's going to find by then?
SCIUTTO: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: And any time that you're just getting closer and closer to the midterms? That's working against House Republicans. This is an issue that -- Donald Trump is Teflon Don. He somehow manages to convince his supporters that even the worst associations or the worst flip-flops maybe aren't what they seem.
I am not convinced that the average Republican in a competitive district is going to be able to sort of laugh off and dismiss the sort of flip-flop on Epstein, if it was something they talked about and something their voters care about.
So, you really don't want to be dragging this until a year out from the midterms, because I think this is one thing Democrats have actually found that they've held on to, and are making more of a rallying cry that could be incredibly effective.
SCIUTTO: It's a good point, because you have Republican lawmakers, who are quite public, calling for the release of this, for years, in some cases. And well, it's easy to call that video up again.
Tyler, the questions about the President's friendship with Epstein and Maxwell. That brings to mind some of his comments about them back in 2020. Let's play these, so viewers can remember.
[21:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I haven't really been following it too much. I just wish her well, frankly. I've met her numerous times, over the years, especially since I lived in Palm Beach, and I guess they lived in Palm Beach. But I wish her well.
JONATHAN SWAN, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Mr. President, the other day, a reporter asked you about Ghislaine Maxwell. You said, quote, "I just wish her well, frankly. I've met her numerous times, over the years, especially since I lived in Palm Beach. But I wish her well, whatever it is."
Mr. President, Ghislaine Maxwell has been arrested on allegations of child sex trafficking. Why would you wish such a person well?
TRUMP: Well, first of all, I don't know that, but I do know this--
SWAN: She has. She's been arrested for that. You know that.
TRUMP: Her friend or boyfriend-- SWAN: Epstein.
TRUMP: --was either killed or committed suicide in jail. She's now in jail.
SWAN: Uh-huh.
TRUMP: Yes, I wish you well, I'd wish you well, I'd wish a lot of people well. Good luck. Let them prove somebody was guilty. I mean, you do know that she--
SWAN: Oh. So you're saying you hope she doesn't die in jail? Is that what you mean by wish her well?
TRUMP: Well, her boyfriend died in jail and people are still trying to figure out how did it happen? Was it suicide? Was he killed? And I do wish her well. I'm not looking for anything bad for her. I'm not looking bad for anybody. And they took that and made it such -- such a big deal--
SWAN: I mean, she's a child sex -- alleged child sex trafficker.
TRUMP: But all it is, is her boyfriend died.
SWAN: Right.
TRUMP: He died in jail. Was he killed? Was it suicide? I do, I wish her well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: I mean, the deliberate stoking there of the, Was he killed, conspiracy theories? That was not accidental, right? And that was another example of how Trump and other Republicans that -- they were stoking the flames on this story for a long time.
PAGER: I mean, absolutely, we've seen this across the board, with even people, like Vice President JD Vance, who has said, We want more information, more transparency. What are you hiding?
And I think that's what this ultimately comes down to, for many people, across both parties, is the sort of response from the President, and from some of his top aides, of shutting this down, trying to push it away, not calling for more transparency, not trying to release more information, is fueling this suspicion that there's something hiding from them.
SCIUTTO: Right.
PAGER: And I think that is this idea that Trump, as you said, Jim, has stoked, this idea of the Deep State conspiracy--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
PAGER: --The elites are lying to you. They're hiding something from you. And now, with Trump in office, and these people that were excited and voted for him, in part because of his promise to eradicate that sort of government secrecy--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
PAGER: --are feeling partly betrayed by this effort.
SCIUTTO: And it's only the last couple of weeks that Trump has suggested that, Oh, maybe all the files were made up by Democrats.
PAGER: Right.
SCIUTTO: Before we go Shelby. The Speaker cannot keep House members out of the house forever.
TALCOTT: Sure.
SCIUTTO: They're going to come back. I mean, when they do come back, is there going to be pressure for a vote here to release these?
TALCOTT: I think -- I can't imagine that the pressure is going to suddenly go away, because they go on August recess.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
TALCOTT: Again, this is something that the base cares about. Lawmakers are telling us that they are getting calls from their constituents, they want more answers. I don't imagine that changing, particularly because of what the President and the DOJ are calling for, this interview with Ghislaine Maxwell, these documents to be unsealed. That takes a lot of time. That's probably not going to be done, before lawmakers come back--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
TALCOTT: --from August recess.
SCIUTTO: All right. Well, we'll be here for them.
Shelby, Tyler, Alyssa as well, thanks so much for joining tonight.
Coming up next. It's Trump's newest Epstein diversion. He is accusing Barack Obama of treason. The 44th President with a rare response. His former Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel, is my source tonight.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: As President Trump tries to turn the page on the Epstein saga, today he baselessly accused one of his predecessors of treason.
And moments ago, in the East Room, he continued those attacks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Where's Tulsi? She's like, hotter than everybody.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: She's the hottest one in the room right now.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Because she found out with certainty. We -- I think we knew it before, in all fairness, Tulsi. But now you have certainty. She has all the documents. She has everything that you need. And she found out that Barack Hussein Obama led a group of people, and they cheated in the elections, and they cheated without question.
What we found out is horrible, that Obama and a group of thugs cheated on the elections. They cheated violently, viciously on the elections. They're violent people. They're vicious, horrible. These are vicious, horrible people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: There's no evidence to back up that claim.
Those documents President Trump is referring to are in this report that his Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, put out last week.
It claims that former President Obama, and his top officials, quote, "Manufactured and politicized intelligence to," quote, "Lay the groundwork" for the FBI's Russia investigation into Trump. She points to emails showing that Obama officials knew Russia did not manipulate actual votes cast in the 2016 election.
However, the Obama administration never claimed that. Intelligence assessments and investigations, after 2016, found that Russia interfered in other ways to help Trump, including an influence campaign or operation, and by hacking the Democratic National Committee. Nothing in Gabbard's report undercuts those findings, which were supported by both Republicans and Democrats.
And now, Trump's attacks have led Obama to do something he rarely does, which is to respond. A spokesman for the former President says, quote, "Out of respect for the office of the presidency, our office does not normally dignify the constant nonsense and misinformation flowing out of this White House with a response. But these claims are outrageous enough to merit one. These bizarre allegations are ridiculous and a weak attempt at distraction.
[21:25:00]
Nothing in the document issued last week undercuts the widely accepted conclusion that Russia worked to influence the 2016 presidential election but did not successfully manipulate any votes. These findings were affirmed in a 2020 report by the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, led by then-Chairman Marco Rubio."
Not an accidental mention, I imagine, because Rubio, of course, is now Trump's Secretary of State.
My source tonight served as Obama's White House Chief of Staff, and as President Biden's Ambassador to Japan. Rahm Emanuel.
Thanks so much for joining.
RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA WH CHIEF OF STAFF: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So, this claim of treason, not supported by the evidence as we know it here. That said, the President now has the organs of government at his disposal--
EMANUEL: Yes.
SCIUTTO: --including the Justice Department. Are you concerned that he might attempt to carry these further, and that he might be able to carry these further?
EMANUEL: Well, look, I think two things.
One is that -- and I would have said it had not also been cited in President Obama's statement or his spokesperson. There was a Senate Intelligence Committee, very bipartisan committee, as you know, historically, free, basically, as best you can in Washington, free of politics, that issued a bipartisan report, looking at what Russia did in 2016 election. That report is thorough, complete and conclusive. And it says it all. Yet -- not much.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
EMANUEL: This has nothing to do, this 2016 election, has nothing to do with President Obama. This has everything to do with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
EMANUEL: Now, none of us know anything, except for where there's smoke there's fire. This is a person, as alderman, William Shakespeare, used to say, thou protest this too much. So whatever is behind this protest, it really is unbelievable.
SCIUTTO: To your point, when we look back to that time--
EMANUEL: William Shakespeare is not an alderman in Chicago.
SCIUTTO: I'm aware of that. Although he probably could have run--
EMANUEL: Information comes--
SCIUTTO: --he might have won.
EMANUEL: Information comes late to Washington. I just want to make sure you knew that.
SCIUTTO: Well, to your point about this being bipartisan.
EMANUEL: Yes.
SCIUTTO: I want to play the comments--
EMANUEL: Sure.
SCIUTTO: --of Republican lawmakers, from 2016, commenting on this assessment. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: Their assessment of 2016 is accurate. It's 100 percent accurate. The Russians interfered in our elections.
JOHN RATCLIFFE, DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Russia meddled in, you know, or interfered with active measures in 2016.
MICHAEL WALTZ, BUSINESSMAN AND FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR OF THE UNITED STATES: We do have to draw a bright line between no collusion and -- and from the campaign to the Russians, versus the Russians attacking our constitutional system and attacking our electoral system.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
WALTZ: Which they absolutely are doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: I mean, the concern is, despite those statements, the misinformation, disinformation operation--
EMANUEL: Yes.
SCIUTTO: --of this party and this President, pretty powerful. I mean, you saw that -- you saw the script flipped on January 6th.
EMANUEL: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Might you see a similar rewriting here?
EMANUEL: Look, there's no doubt, unlike then, this is a different Republican Party, much more under the spell of Donald Trump, and this is also a different Cabinet than there was in 2016.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
EMANUEL: Where, in his control, the levers of government are going to be incredibly powerful. This is why the role of the free press, doing its job, is going to be really important for the American people and for our public discourse. I want to make one side note. If you go through history, going Soviet Union times, they tried many different times to kind of, in some way, manipulate, get involved in American politics. This was the most explicit in our election. And in fact, President Obama and Mitch McConnell signed off on it. There was going to be a Leader's letter, or before the election, calling out Russia's manipulation in that effort.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
EMANUEL: OK? Now, at that time, Speaker Ryan would not sign it or -- I think Mitch McConnell. I'm sorry. I got that wrong.
SCIUTTO: Right.
EMANUEL: Everybody else's signature, and the four leaders, was on it. And it's very clear, Russia was trying to influence the outcome in the election. And again, in that situation, like in Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump, thou protest this too much.
SCIUTTO: Well, and listen, people may forget, they hacked Hillary Clinton's emails--
EMANUEL: Yes, right.
SCIUTTO: --John Podesta's emails, and released them--
EMANUEL: Right.
SCIUTTO: --at the moment of impact--
EMANUEL: Critical -- critical impact.
SCIUTTO: Right when the Access Hollywood tape came out--
EMANUEL: Right.
SCIUTTO: --to distract, again.
I do want to switch gears, because if we talk--
EMANUEL: Sure.
SCIUTTO: --about politics in 2028, you're openly considering a 2028 run for president.
EMANUEL: That's not breaking news, but correct.
SCIUTTO: It's not.
You sat down with Megyn Kelly, and I want to play an exchange from that interview that is making news, and I'm sure you're aware what it is. Have a listen.
EMANUEL: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW": Can a man become a woman?
EMANUEL: Can a man become a woman? Not. No.
KELLY: Thank you.
EMANUEL: No.
KELLY: That's so easy. Why don't more people in your party just say that?
EMANUEL: Because I'm now going to go into a Witness Protection Plan.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Do you believe your party, and would you as a candidate, step away entirely from supporting trans rights under any circumstances?
EMANUEL: Well, so, look, I've made that point, it's clear. They can't. You can take medicine, but that's what -- that's basically what you were born.
Now, look, I as both Ambassador had trans people working at the Embassy. They did their job. We didn't talk about anything else, but the job we were doing as public servants for the United States.
[21:30:00]
When I was Mayor, in 2016, passed an ordinance as it relates to bathroom access. But my focus was on increasing graduation rates from 56 percent to, when I walked out, at 83 percent. That's where the American people want us to focus on.
I get for an individual, or a child, trying to figure out their pronoun. But the other 35 kids in the class don't know what a pronoun is, and that has to be our focus. We are losing the focus of the forest for the trees.
And to me, not only is the country I know ready, and I do believe, as to the Democratic Party is ready. I'm respectful of a decision made individually, as an adult. But I'm also respectful of the responsibilities to help people buy a home, to help people make sure they live in a safe neighborhood, to help people make sure that they have not only health insurance, but also retirement security. That is what our responsibility is.
So, I think there's just, in my view, there was a distraction from the core responsibility we have, as a party, which is that the American Dream is unaffordable, and we're going to make -- and that is unacceptable to us, as a Democratic Party.
SCIUTTO: So far, that message is not working. As you know--
EMANUEL: I know--
SCIUTTO: --Americans don't rate any politician particularly highly.
EMANUEL: Right.
SCIUTTO: But currently, Democrats ranked below Republicans.
EMANUEL: Yes, well, two things.
One is, I don't agree with you on that, the premise there. Which is, in fact, it does work. If you take a look at New Jersey primary, we nominated a very centrist candidate. Five people ran in the primary. Doubled the turnout of the Republican primary. And they had choices from the Mayor of Newark, all the way to who became the nominee.
In Virginia, the gubernatorial -- in both Virginia and New Jersey, our gubernatorial candidates are of the moderate, out of the military, basically background -- national security background.
So, I don't agree that's where the Democratic primary is. But I know also and agree -- also don't agree. That is where the American people are ready to go. They are struggling to stay in the middle-class to achieve the American Dream for themselves.
They think the system is rigged against them, and they want you and, most importantly, us as a party. And they feel like when their backs were against the wall, we didn't focus on that. And we got focused on things that weren't primary to them. And we should focus again on what's primary to them.
SCIUTTO: So, Mamdani runs a very successful race in the New York mayoral primary--
EMANUEL: Yes.
SCIUTTO: --with exactly an affordability message, and is not exactly getting the support of--
EMANUEL: Yes, but here's my--
SCIUTTO: --party leadership.
EMANUEL: Yes, my point on that is he did focus. And I agree with the critique that the system is rigged. His answers to that critique? Don't agree with him. I, as a Mayor, worked on reducing food deserts. There's a way to do it. Not the way that I think a--
SCIUTTO: Right.
EMANUEL: --the city can barely run a subway system. You think they can run five grocery stores? So, I don't agree with the answers. But I do agree that this system is rigged, and against people achieving what they need for them, and their family.
Now, Jim, you and I, we've talked other times. We grew up at a time, where there was a basic premise and contract, that if you worked hard? SCIUTTO: Right.
EMANUEL: You got ahead. Today--
SCIUTTO: You do better than your parents.
EMANUEL: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
EMANUEL: And today, if you work hard, you run in place--
SCIUTTO: Yes.
EMANUEL: --and it's rigged against your kids' success. It can't be the American Dream, if only Jim's and Rahm's kids can get to it.
SCIUTTO: Right.
EMANUEL: And so that, to me, that's -- we got to focus on what is most pressing to this country. And I would say one under political analysis. The moment the American Dream becomes unaffordable is exactly when our politics becomes unstable.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
EMANUEL: And if you want us to secure democracy, secure the American Dream.
SCIUTTO: Rahm Emanuel, there'll be a big test for that in 2026.
EMANUEL: Right. Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Thanks so much for joining tonight.
Coming up next. Some good news for Republicans. The RNC has raised five times more money than its Democratic counterparts. My source tonight, the DNC chair, Ken Martin, with what his party needs to do to win voters back.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, as Republican leaders struggle to move past the Epstein files crisis, there is perhaps one major boon for them, as they look ahead to the 2026 midterms. And that is money, big money.
New campaign finance reports show the Republican National Committee has about $81 million cash on hand. That, more than five times what the Democratic have on -- in the bank, only $15 million.
Republicans also have the edge in congressional approval. While only 33 percent of Americans approve of the way Republicans in Congress are handling their job? Poor showing. The Democratic's numbers are even worse, 19 percent. My source tonight is the Chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Ken Martin.
Good to have you.
KEN MARTIN, CHAIR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE (DNC): Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: So those numbers are not great. I mean, 81 to 15 in money, but 33 to 19 percent in approval.
MARTIN: Yes, we got--
SCIUTTO: Can you go with (ph) those numbers?
MARTIN: --we got work to do, for sure.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MARTIN: There's no doubt about it.
But let me just say, I've been on the job for five and a half months, and we've raised a record amount of money for any Chair in the first five months on the job. And what's fueling that actually is grassroots donations, which are sky-high.
We've raised $60 million, which is a record, at this point, for any DNC chair in the history of the party, and I'm really proud of that. Because what that shows is we're not relying on large donations to fuel our party. These grassroots donors are people giving $5, $10, $15, $20 a month, and they do it every single month because they believe in this party.
And we've seen a record number of people roll up their sleeves to actually contribute. And that's a good sign for us, because it doesn't just signify that we can raise money over and over again each month. It's a sign of the energy that's out there right now.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
[21:40:00]
MARTIN: And look, since we -- Donald Trump was inaugurated, there has been 38 elections on the ballot. We have overperformed in all of those. There is definitely wind at the backs of Democrats right now. We have won many of those elections. We're raising the type of money that we need to, to sustain this organization.
And sure, as I was -- I have always said, if you hit rock-bottom, there's only one direction to go, which is up--
SCIUTTO: Well, the question is--
MARTIN: --and that's what we're going to do.
SCIUTTO: Question is, can you go up far enough? The New York Times is reporting that the DNC's own examination, its postmortem, of what went wrong in 2024 is not looking at Biden's decision to run, or key decisions by Harris' team. And I know that your focus might be on, Let's look ahead. But is there not something to learn from--
MARTIN: No.
SCIUTTO: --losing in 2024?
MARTIN: Just the opposite. We're looking back. We're looking back, not just at this, that's -- this election, but also at the tactics of everyone, from the campaign, to the party, to all the other people in the ecosystem.
Look, there was $10 billion spent, last year, on the Democratic ledger. The campaign spent about $2.5 billion. The party spent about $1 billion. The reality is, there was a lot of money spent.
We have to really examine what happened. That includes looking at the campaign, and looking at the party, tactics by everyone within the ecosystem. We want to see what they spent money on, what their organizing tactics were, what their messages were. We have to do that. We have to be introspective about this, and we want to learn the lessons of the past to help inform how we win the future.
SCIUTTO: So, in the midst of this, a guy named Zohran Mamdani runs in New York, against the odds.
MARTIN: Right.
SCIUTTO: Comes from like, a rounding error, right, in the polls, and he ends up beating Cuomo.
Did you see something, a secret, in his win there, that might be a lesson for Democrats, nationally?
MARTIN: Well, I think there's a few things. One is that authenticity. We've heard a lot about that, of course. But also, he ran for something.
SCIUTTO: Right.
MARTIN: And I think this is critical, because it's easy just to run against Donald Trump. And my advice to Democrats, throughout this country is, certainly we have to resist Donald Trump with every fiber of our being, for all the reasons we know today. But the reality is, if we don't give people a sense of what we're fighting for, as a Democratic Party, what we stand for, then I don't think we'll ever be able to build that coalition that will help us win again.
SCIUTTO: And his--
MARTIN: And so, we do have to run for something, and that's what he did.
SCIUTTO: His, of course, was affordability. Before we go, Republicans, in Texas and, now, Missouri, are making attempts to redraw congressional districts, as you're aware -- rare. Typically, that happens at the turn of the decade, when you have new census data to reduce deliberately the number of Democratic districts there. Should blue states do the same? In other words, fight fire with fire?
MARTIN: Well, let me say what I've said before on this. The reality is, is that Texas said they want a showdown on this, and we're going to give them a showdown. And I'm sure a few Democratic governors will have something to say about this.
The reality is, is what they're doing is a craven power grab, a midcycle redistricting, when there's really no reason to do that. Why? Because Donald Trump ordered them to do that. Greg Abbott is following Donald Trump's orders to try to squeeze five more Republican districts, out of the State of Texas, in a craven power grab, and there's no need to do that. Look, like I said--
SCIUTTO: So, what are you going to do about it--
MARTIN: Well, here's--
SCIUTTO: --as they're pushing for it--
MARTIN: What are we going to do about it? They want a showdown? We're going to give them a showdown. We're not going to roll over on this. From litigation, to making sure we're doing everything we can in Texas, to stop this. And if Democratic governors choose to do something about it, like I said, all options are on the table at this point.
And the Republicans, I think, they'll do anything, clearly, to hold on to power. They know, by the way, that they're on the wrong side of electoral trends. And the reality is, is we only need three seats to win back the U.S. House of Representatives. They're likely going to lose the majority, next year. They know that. So, they're going to cheat and rig the system to do everything they can hold on to power.
SCIUTTO: Ken Martin, we appreciate you joining tonight.
MARTIN: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Ahead, another showdown, this one in New Jersey. Federal judges there refused to extend Trump ally Alina Habba's appointment as interim U.S. Attorney, so the Justice Department fired her replacement. My legal source is here to sort through all the drama and the law.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, there's major drama playing out between the White House and the federal courts, over who will be New Jersey's top federal prosecutor. Alina Habba, President Trump's ally and former personal attorney, was serving in that role as interim U.S. attorney. But her 100-day term is expiring, meaning, she can only stay in that role, if confirmed by the Senate, or if federal judges in her jurisdiction extend her appointment.
But today, those judges declined to do so. Instead, they handpicked her replacement, an experienced prosecutor named Desiree Leigh Grace, who served as Habba's first assistant.
Then, just hours later, President Trump's Justice Department fired Grace, blaming, quote, "Politically minded judges" for not extending Habba's appointment, and saying, Trump's DOJ "Does not tolerate rogue judges."
My legal source is former federal prosecutor, Elie Honig.
Elie, if the district court judges say they acted within their statutory authority here, to appoint the U.S. Attorney, after the 120 days, does the Justice Department actually have any legal basis to reverse that?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Well, Jim, the short answer is, we don't know at this moment. So, we're really in sort of unprecedented territory here.
So, as you said, ordinarily, the President nominates the U.S. Attorney. Then that person has to be Senate-confirmed. If there's a vacancy, the law says the A.G., really, in this case, the President, but technically, the A.G. can nominate a temporary interim U.S. attorney, but that can only last 120 days.
[21:50:00]
Where things get unusual is usually judges, after that 120 days, just approve whoever the A.G. or the President has put in place. Here, the judges rejected that person, and put in their own person. And now, DOJ has gone and fired that person.
So, I don't actually know what's going to happen tomorrow, in Newark, at the U.S. Attorney's Office headquarters.
What we could look to, though, is a similar situation played out in the Northern District of New York, last week. And what the administration did is they took the fired person, in this case, Habba, they gave her a title as a Special Attorney at DOJ, and essentially put this person back in charge. So, we'll see if they try the same playbook, tomorrow.
SCIUTTO: Can -- I mean, I wonder, can the judges for cause replace that interim attorney, to say, Not qualified, or whatever reason they give?
HONIG: Well, so they didn't give any specific reason why they voted down Alina Habba today. And it's important to note, Jim. Historically, the judges defer to the President, whether, Republican, Democrat, whatever. In fact, if we look at this very same district, in New Jersey, back during the Trump's first term in office, the same thing happened. Trump appointed a person who served 120 days. And at the end of the 120 days, that person was confirmed by the judges. They did what normally happens. They approved this person.
But these judges are, look, they do have the statutory authority to pick whoever they want.
SCIUTTO: Right.
HONIG: The law does not require they confirm that person. But the judges have taken a different tack here, and DOJ is fighting back.
SCIUTTO: Yet another unprecedented battle.
HONIG: We'll see.
SCIUTTO: Elie Honig. Not the last one we talk about. Thanks so much.
HONIG: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: the Late Night League unites. Stephen Colbert's fellow television hosts join him in a powerful show of solidarity, after CBS pulled the plug on his show. So, what they had to say?
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, President Trump is taking aim at two more Late Night comics, after he praised CBS for canceling "The Late Show With Stephen Colbert." Trump saying today, that Jimmy Kimmel's show on ABC is, quote, "NEXT to go," and that NBC's Jimmy Fallon "Will be gone" after.
Kimmel clapped back on Instagram, by alluding to a Wall Street Journal report, about a letter bearing Trump's name to Jeffrey Epstein, telling Trump, quote, "I'm hearing you're next. Or maybe it's just another wonderful secret."
Trump's attacks come after several prominent TV hosts, like Fallon, Seth Meyers, John Oliver, and Jon Stewart, showed up to support Colbert, last night. This, after CBS had announced his show will be axed in May.
Critics have questioned if CBS' parent company, Paramount, did this to appease Trump, as it seeks FCC approval for a merger.
Colbert had some choice words for the President, on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT," CBS: On Friday, Donald Trump posted, I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. (LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: His talent was even less than his ratings.
(BOOING)
COLBERT: How -- how dare you, sir? Would an untalented man be able to compose the following satirical witticism?
Go (bleep) yourself.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Wow.
My source tonight is Bill Carter, Editor-at-large of the LateNighter website, Author of "The War for Late Night: When Leno Went Early and Television Went Crazy."
Well, Bill, I mean, one might argue that Late Night is going crazy again now. And the President is clearly feeling emboldened. He feels like he got a skelp with Colbert, and might be able to get other skelps here. I wonder, might he be right?
BILL CARTER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, LATENIGHTER, FORMER MEDIA REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "THE WAR FOR LATE NIGHT": Well, it's certainly not a great time for any anybody in linear television, and Late Night is part of that.
I think he has targeted these guys, openly, and you could say he's basically trying to suppress people who criticize him. But his timing is pretty good, because they have trouble financially, even though they're artistically doing the same kind of shows they did.
So yes, I think they're vulnerable. It'll be up to their corporations, whether they can stand up. And we know we've seen a lot of institutions folding to him.
SCIUTTO: That's right.
CARTER: So, he may have some opportunities here.
SCIUTTO: No question we have. And I wonder if that combination of financial pressure, which is, of course shrinking Late Night audiences, and therefore the -- you know, the expenses, just don't match up, those big salaries with what you earn from advertising as it falls. Whether this provides a sweet spot in effect, right? While Late Night is weak, then the ownership says, Well, I don't need the political trouble, and I also can't afford it.
CARTER: Absolutely. It gives them the chance. If they -- we don't know whether CBS actually was under political pressure to do this. They're saying, it was finance. We don't know what was in their heads. But the timing says-- SCIUTTO: Yes.
CARTER: --you know, they wanted this deal to be made. And frankly, Trump openly called for the termination of Colbert's contract, last fall. He basically said that.
In the past, we didn't have presidents doing things like that, like trying to force out critics from a job that is basically a free-speech job. But this is a new era.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
CARTER: And they do have that excuse. If they want to, they can probably say it's the money, it's not the politics.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Just quickly. Stephen Colbert will find a home somewhere else, I imagine.
[22:00:00]
CARTER: Yes, I think so. I mean, he's a very talented and very funny guy, and he's really creative. And frankly, his earlier show, "The Colbert Report," was one of the most brilliant shows I've ever seen in Late Night. So, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't be surprised if he does something like that again, something really creative.
SCIUTTO: Yes. There's a lot of streaming out there.
Bill Carter, thanks so much for joining tonight. We appreciate it.
CARTER: Sure thing, Jim.
SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining. I'm Jim Sciutto, in for Kaitlan Collins.
CBS -- "CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
