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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump Firing Of CDC Chief Sparks Exodus Of Leadership; 8 & 10- Year-Old Victims Of Minneapolis Shooting Identified; Vance Defends "Thoughts And Prayers" After Minneapolis Shooting. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired August 28, 2025 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --well, Laura, and her sister, Serena, still live near Waveland. They both started their own families. Laura has four kids, and a grandson. Serena also has four kids, and a granddaughter, with another grandchild on the way.

Laura says she tells people to cherish their parents, that her kids understand the importance of family. We're all we have, she says.

That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, there is chaos at the CDC. After the President fired the Director that he just installed, senior officials resigned. And of course, it's the health of Americans that is now on the line. Those three officials who just quit in protest will join me tonight.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

As we come on the air tonight, there are real questions about the future of public health in America. Decades worth of experience walked out the door at the Centers for Disease -- Centers for Disease Control today, as the men and women whose job it is to keep the nation healthy, gathered to applaud their colleagues, who had just resigned in protest of the actions of this administration. What remains to be seen tonight is who fills those roles, going forward.

The turmoil started at the top, when President Trump abruptly fired the person that he had just picked to run the CDC.

Five months ago, in March, the President described Dr. Susan Monarez, as someone who would bring, quote, "Decades of experience championing Innovation, Transparency, and strong Public Health Systems," to this position. The President said, quote, "As an incredible mother and dedicated public servant, Dr. Monarez understands the importance of protecting our children, our communities, and our future."

When she was sworn in, again, just weeks ago, the HHS Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who said that he had handpicked Monarez for this role, sang her praises.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: She's a tech genius, and she's going to drive AI, and modernize CDC's data systems. Susan is a expert in public health, and I'm confident that she will do everything that she can to restore the integrity of this agency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: But in the weeks since that moment that you saw there, we have learned the Monarez and Kennedy clashed over vaccine policy. Her attorneys tonight are accusing the Secretary and HHS of, quote, Weaponizing public health for political gain.

And the White House press secretary defended her ouster, this way today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This woman has never received a vote in her life, and the President has the authority to fire those who are not aligned with his mission. A new replacement will be announced by either the President, or the Secretary, very soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Monarez hasn't won any elections, but she did get 51 votes, all of them from Republican senators, who voted to confirm her to this position, again, after President Trump himself nominated her for it.

We've learned that Secretary Kennedy is expected to name Jim O'Neill as her temporary replacement. Right now, he is serving as the Deputy Secretary of the Health and Human Services Department, after spending years as a Silicon Valley-based technology and biotech investor, and previously serving in the Bush administration.

But tonight, the CDC has a lot more open positions to fill, because in the midst of a bizarre back-and-forth that happened over the last 24 hours, about whether or not the CDC Director was or was not fired, resignation letters started piling up from some of the most senior people who are responsible for shaping public health.

Three of those public health leaders are my sources tonight. They've all spent years guiding the country's response to disease outbreaks, and building the framework designed to keep Americans healthy and alive.

Dr. Deb Houry was the agency's Deputy Director and Chief Medical Officer. And more than a decade at the CDC, she briefed the public on everything from diabetes rates, to mental illness among children, to opioid prescribing recommendations. She joined the agency in 2014, to lead the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, which dealt with issues like gun violence and suicide.

In her resignation letter, she wrote, Recently, the overstating of risks and the rise of misinformation has cost lives, as demonstrated by the highest number of U.S. measles cases in 30 years and the violent attack on our agency.

[21:05:00]

Dr. Demetre Daskalakis is an infectious diseases physician. And as the Director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, he ran the team that issues vaccine recommendations. He joined the CDC in 2020, to direct its HIV Prevention Division, and he spent a year deployed to the White House, working to help coordinate the country's response to Mpox.

He now says he's, quote, "Unable to serve in an environment that treats the CDC as a tool to generate policies and materials that do not reflect scientific reality and are designed to hurt rather than to improve the public's health."

Dr. Daniel Jernigan is a top flu specialist, and was the Director of the National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases, meaning he was in charge of the team that is tasked with preventing you from contracting diseases like rabies and smallpox. He worked at the CDC for 30 years, leading key responses to Anthrax and Ebola.

In his resignation letter, he focused on the CDC's significant impact mitigating illness, preventing deaths, and improving the lives of millions of people.

And I'm so grateful that you're all joining me here tonight. I can only imagine what the last 24 hours have been like.

And Dr. Daskalakis, I just want to start with you, because to see the video of when you all exited the CDC today, and all of your colleagues were outside, I imagine was an emotional moment, and I just wonder what it felt like to leave the CDC, under these conditions today.

DR. DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, FMR. DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES AT CDC: I think Dr. Houry and her comments really captured it. It was very bittersweet.

I love public health, and I love CDC. And so, I mean, I was really interested in having a long career there. And that wasn't in the cards. But what was in the cards was that I got to meet amazing scientists and amazing leaders in public health. And what I thought as I was walking out, and what I said when I was walking out was, That's what makes CDC, those people are what makes CDC.

And we've been through a lot. There has been dehumanization of public -- people who work in public health. And seeing the humanity, America needs to see that, that those are the people who are, with love, protecting their health and the security of the country.

COLLINS: Dr. Houry, just given what triggered all of this, the ouster of the CDC Director after just a few weeks of Dr. Monarez being on the job. You're the Chief Medical Officer. Had you ever talked to her about resigning? Was it -- was it clear that there was tension between her and Secretary Kennedy?

DR. DEBRA HOURY, FMR. CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, CDC, FMR. DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR PROGRAM AND SCIENCE AT CDC: So, I had talked with her just around some of her recent conversations with the Secretary, but she was very committed to the CDC, and wanted to stay. I think that's just how we all feel, initially. We want to stay. We believe in the mission. But when you can't make things work, sometimes leaving is the statement to make.

COLLINS: And have you spoken to her since she resigned?

HOURY: I have. I spoke with her yesterday, and she just gave her support to Demetre, Dan, and I. She wanted to give all the CDC staff, big hugs, and wants us all to continue fighting for public health in whatever position we can.

COLLINS: Dr. Jernigan, when you -- when you look at this situation. She was the first permanent Director that the CDC had had in months. Yes, there is an acting Director that the White House just named, a couple of hours ago. But is it clear who is calling the shots and actually running the CDC?

DR. DANIEL JERNIGAN, FMR. DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CENTER FOR EMERGING AND ZOONOTIC INFECTIOUS DISEASES AT CDC: Yes, that's a great question.

And I think, I've been at CDC for 30 years. I've been through multiple different administrations. We've been able to work with a lot of different folks, different ideologies, but we always focused on the science. Right now, I'm not sure. As Dr. Monarez has had to step aside, I don't know who actually will be making those calls.

But I do understand that when we've been working on these data, that we make decisions from, a lot of that is coming from the -- from the White House, is coming from the HHS. And so, I don't know exactly where we're going to go next. But I do know that the CDC has a mission to protect Americans, and that's something that I will always work to make sure that we're doing.

COLLINS: Is it alarming to you, Dr. Jernigan, to hear that -- or to kind of reconcile the fact that it's not clear who is calling the shots?

JERNIGAN: I think it's unfortunate. I think you want a Director that has the power to make decisions, to use science to make sure that those decisions are leading to appropriate policies. And right now, I can't tell if that that -- if we have that currently in place, right now.

[21:10:00]

COLLINS: Dr. Daskalakis, we heard from Secretary Kennedy today, actually.

I should just remind people, there was a back-and-forth, last night, over whether or not the CDC director had been fired. She basically said she hadn't heard from the White House. Then the White House came out and issued a statement, saying that, yes, she was being fired.

This is what Secretary Kennedy said today about the state of the CDC. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY JR.: The CDC is an agency that is very troubled for a very long time, and anybody who lived through the COVID pandemic, and saw all of these bizarre recommendations that were not science-based, all the misinformation.

There's a lot of trouble at CDC, and it's going to require getting rid of some people, over the long-term, in order for us to change the institutional culture, and bring back pride and self-esteem and make that agency the stellar agency that it's always been.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Dr. Daskalakis, is that what the CDC needs, in your view, an overhaul?

DASKALAKIS: I think the CDC, really, is a place filled with great scientists and experts.

And I think that if CDC is being characterized, as troubled, by Secretary Kennedy, I think we have to turn the mirror back to him, because I think that the trouble is emanating mainly from him. I think that the disregard for experts, the clear statement that experts should not be trusted, really makes it seem unlikely that his mission for CDC is to be a bastion of scientific expertise. Additionally, I think that his reaction to what happened, when we were attacked, really traumatized an already traumatized organization.

So, I don't think I want to call it troubled. I think that CDC has made such progress in transforming itself, after the pandemic, and that progress is being dismantled by Secretary Kennedy and his -- I don't know what his vision would be. I guess you'd call it, vision for public health. But it's not been articulated, so I can't tell you what that vision is.

COLLINS: Yes, and you're talking about the shooting that happened. The White House was actually asked today, why President Trump hasn't commented on that.

And Dr. Houry, I see you shaking your head. Some people might listen to what Secretary Kennedy said there, and say, Well, the CDC did make mistakes during COVID, and maybe he has a point. I wonder what you would say to someone who, his comments there might have resonated with them a little bit.

HOURY: Well, I want to point out that COVID began five years ago. And certainly, CDC made mistakes, and learned a lot from them, as did other federal agencies.

But what I can tell you is CDC made significant strides, in the past few years, really, in the past few, to where our data are now extremely timely being -- I mentioned this in my letter. Near real- time, dashboards that the public can use, our publications are coming out within a week of an outbreak. I look across the centers, and they're much more interdisciplinary. We are response-ready. What has happened, though, is in the past year, with staffing cuts, with plans for reorganization, all of this is being dismantled.

So, if we want to say that the CDC needs an overhaul? It's because of what has happened in the past few months to it, not because of COVID. We've made tremendous progress since COVID that we were all really proud of, and the state of the agency and the innovation that we were putting forward at the time.

COLLINS: Dr. Jernigan, when you look at -- as someone with so much experience as the three of you have, but also you in this in -- at the CDC, and in this area, I imagine it was pretty hard for you to resign.

JERNIGAN: Yes, I have been at the agency for over 30 years, and the people that I work with are some of the smartest people I know. They are extremely driven. They have done things that are incredible for protecting Americans. In that sense, it was very difficult for me to make that decision.

But when I find that the thing that has been the focus of CDC, and that is, using science to drive policy, to make the right decisions, when we're not able to do that, then I was not able to do the job that I was there to complete. And so, for me, it was best to resign.

COLLINS: Dr. Daskalakis, I see you shaking your head as well. Do you believe that that anyone from -- or did you ever experience anyone from Secretary Kennedy's office interfering with the work of the CDC?

[21:15:00]

DASKALAKIS: I think that there is public evidence of the intent to interfere with the science at CDC. I think Dr. Jernigan can speak to that in detail. So can Deb Houry.

But I think that most recently, recently the release of the documents that helped form one of the ACIP workgroups on COVID-19, really demonstrate where interference will be coming.

And so, very specifically, this document that puts together the workgroup that provides inputs to the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, states that the -- that the Chair of the workgroup, who is a staunch opponent to COVID-19 vaccine, who on his Twitter has a pinned tweet that says that no one should ever get the COVID vaccine and it should be banned, is now the head of that, and has been given authority to guide CDC's science. And additionally, that document says that his role is to make sure that CDC bias does not permeate the workgroup.

CDC does not have bias. On the contrary, the people that have been installed by Secretary Kennedy are full of ideology and bias that will actually contaminate the science. So, I think that we have evidence that this is coming.

And I think that the other part that we're seeing is that decisions are being made, and data is being retrofitted to be able to address the decision. I think that that is really a clear sign that the direction that the country's public health is going, is not one that is evidence-based or science-based, which is why our resignations are really, together, are trying to raise a red flag for everyone.

COLLINS: Dr. Houry, I mean, can people trust what is coming out of the CDC, in your view?

HOURY: What I can tell you is the publications, like the MMWRs, and the data dashboards, I personally cleared, as did Demetre and Dan. So those that come from CDC are.

We saw some things that reference CDC before, like a fact sheet on some of the COVID vaccine recommendations that was around HHS. We have never cleared that, and that had factually inaccurate information. It mentioned CDC, but it didn't come from CDC. If it's coming from CDC scientists, you can trust it. If it's coming from the administration, and hasn't been cleared by CDC scientists or reviewed by it? Then I would have concerns.

COLLINS: Yes, but how do people know? I think that's the question is--

HOURY: Yes.

COLLINS: --if that's the case now, is that the case going forward? Or how do regular, normal people distinguish that?

HOURY: Well, and I think that'll be the concern.

And I think what I also find concerning is just how President -- or Secretary Kennedy will misspeak on things. And when we talk about things like vaccines and vitamins, in the middle of the measles outbreak, he will push vitamins as prevention, versus, it can be an adjunct.

And so, I think it's really -- you know, we included stuff on vitamins, on our information on measles. But we want to be very clear, prevention via vaccines was the most important thing. The Secretary then might speak about it and elevate different things, which makes it difficult when he takes our materials and uses his own personal spin on it.

COLLINS: Dr. Jernigan, when you look at this, we're hearing from senators on this, particularly Senator Bill Cassidy, who everyone was watching very closely, during Secretary Kennedy's confirmation hearing. He's saying, these departures will require oversight by his committee.

And Secretary Kennedy is actually scheduled to testify before Senate Finance on September 4th. That was before all of this happened. What do you want Senate Republicans to ask him?

JERNIGAN: I think the Senate Republicans have been behind the nomination and the approval of Dr. Monarez. She had, as her focus to work on science, to have science as the primary means for making policies. I would love for those folks to be asking him, what is his priority? What is it that he wants to help the American -- how does he want to help the American people? Is he going to be following the science? Will he stick to what he said earlier about vaccines? We want to make sure that he supports the use of vaccines. We want to know that he is using science in helping to make those decisions.

But at this point, we have been working with the administration, providing data. We don't know exactly what the process is, they're using with that science. We don't know exactly how they're approaching it. And so, if there is going to be some new findings that are released, we are not sure if those are going to be supportive of vaccines and of scientific approach.

[21:20:00]

COLLINS: Dr. Daskalakis, you were specifically referenced today, during the White House press briefing. I'm not sure if you saw this, but I want -- I want everyone to listen to what the press secretary had to say today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: One of those individuals wrote in his departure statement that he identifies pregnant women as pregnant people. So that's not someone who we want in this administration, anyway.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I want to give you the chance to respond to that.

DASKALAKIS: Yes. No -- I think that, I -- well, first I want to say one thing, in response to something Dan said. So, I think that another -- an important thing to ask the Secretary is, has he been ever briefed by a CDC expert on anything, specifically measles, COVID-19, flu? I think that people should ask him that in that hearing. That's number one. So--

COLLINS: What would the answer to that be?

DASKALAKIS: The answer is no. So no one from my center has ever briefed him on any of those topics. So, I don't know where he's getting his--

COLLINS: Really?

DASKALAKIS: Really.

COLLINS: No one has ever briefed him on--

DASKALAKIS: But back to your--

COLLINS: --on any of those issues that you just mentioned there, including measles, given--

DASKALAKIS: He is-- COLLINS: --the outbreak in the United States, right now?

DASKALAKIS: He is getting information from somewhere. Yes, he's getting information from somewhere, but that information is not coming from CDC experts who really are the world's experts in this area. Like, folks from around the world call us, with questions around these infections, and we are seen as the experts. CDC is seen as the expert in these areas.

We are the -- CDC is the preeminent public health organization, I'm going to say, in the world. And he's not taking us up on several offers, to brief him on these very important topics.

Now, on the issue--

COLLINS: Why do you think that is?

DASKALAKIS: I don't know the answer. Perhaps he has alternate experts that he may trust more, than the experts at CDC that the rest of the world regards as the best scientists in the areas.

COLLINS: Wow.

DASKALAKIS: But back to the question. I mean, I had, for my entire career, been an advocate for the LGBTQ community, through my work in HIV, through my work in Mpox. I find it outrageous that this -- that this administration is trying to erase transgender people.

I very specifically used the term, pregnant people, and very specifically added my pronouns at the end of my resignation letter, to make the point that I am defying this terrible strategy, trying to erase people, and not allowing them to express their identities.

So, I accept the note from the press secretary, and counter that with, I don't care.

COLLINS: Dr. Demetre Daskalakis. Dr. Deb Houry. And Dr. Daniel Jernigan. I really do appreciate you coming on, and to share this, after you took the step of resigning today in protest. And appreciate you sharing this with us tonight. Thank you.

DASKALAKIS: Thank you.

JERNIGAN: Thanks.

DASKALAKIS: Thanks for having us.

COLLINS: Up next. After this update, here in Washington, we're going to get back on the ground, in Minneapolis, to learn on the latest that we are getting out of the deadly shooting, at that Minneapolis church. There are firsthand accounts coming, from children, who were inside, about how they survived. And also from a doctor who treated victims will join me, right after this.

[21:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, all that the family of 8-year-old Fletcher Merkel have left of their little boy, who you see there with that big smile and his thumbs-up, are their memories, after a shooter murdered him by firing into the windows of the Annunciation Catholic Church, yesterday.

Fletcher's dad, filled with grief, remembered his little boy, this way today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSIE MERKEL, 8-YEAR-OLD SON FLETCHER KILLED IN SHOOTING: Yesterday, a coward decided to take our 8-year-old son, Fletcher, away from us. Because of their actions, we will never be allowed to hold him, talk to him, play with him, and watch him grow into the wonderful young man he was on the path to becoming. Fletcher loved his family, friends, fishing, cooking and any sport that he was allowed to play.

Please remember Fletcher for the person he was, and not the act that ended his life. Give your kids an extra hug and kiss today. We love you, Fletcher. You will always be with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: It's just hard to imagine the pain that father felt, in that moment.

And also tonight, another grieving family, the family of 10-year-old Harper Moyski has confirmed that she was also killed in yesterday's shooting. They remember her as a bright, joyful and deeply loved 10- year-old whose kindness, laughter and spirit touched everyone who knew her. Harper was a big sister, and her family says tonight that her little sister is grieving an unimaginable loss.

18 more people in that church were wounded, yesterday, most of them just children.

One of them is 13-year-old Endre Gunter, who was shot in the stomach. His mom says a police officer was able to help him in time, and that he has survived surgery.

12-year-old Sophia Forchas also needed surgery. She's still in critical condition tonight. Her mom, a critical care nurse at Hennepin County Medical Center, rushed to help treat victims, only to learn that her daughter was among them.

I'm joined tonight by Dr. Thomas Wyatt, who is the Chair of Emergency Medicine Care at Hennepin Healthcare in Minneapolis.

[21:30:00]

And thank you, sir, for being here. Because, I can't even imagine what the last 36 hours have been like for you and your team.

DR. THOMAS WYATT, CHAIR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE, HENNEPIN HEALTHCARE: Yes, thank you for having me here, Kaitlan.

You're correct. It's been, you know, a lot of our team members, a lot of our staff, are really struggling to make sense of this really senseless tragedy. And a lot of grief, a lot of anger, and definitely a lot of empathy for the families of the victims.

But as you know, our Emergency Department never closes, so we're open 24/7, so we have to staff, and continue to provide those services. And so, it's not easy at times.

COLLINS: How do you even prepare, when the hospital gets word that they're getting 11 patients, and nine of them are children suffering gunshot wounds?

WYATT: Yes. So, we are a Level 1 trauma center, and we definitely do prepare and we train. We have exercises, throughout the year, to prepare for these types of events.

But whenever you actually get the call, and you start to understand that the majority of the victims that are coming in are children, it definitely raises it to a different level. But at that moment, we have to focus on really doing our jobs and performing, and trying to provide care for the patients that are coming in.

It's difficult, at times, especially, those who are somehow connected to the community, and who have children of their own. So, it definitely becomes something that we have to process at some point in time.

And for many times, for emergency workers doing this type of work, it's not in that moment, but we definitely have to process it sometime. And each individual goes through a different process of their own. Sometimes, it can be very quickly. Sometimes, it takes days, weeks or even months, so. We definitely have services that we have in place to really support our caregivers that have--

COLLINS: Yes.

WYATT: --experienced this event.

COLLINS: Yes, I can't even imagine leaving, and just having to go about your regular life, while also thinking about all of the tragedy that you just saw.

I know that one thing you've asked is for the public to donate blood. What else can people do, to help you and to help your teams?

WYATT: Well, I think donating blood is very important. Right now, there's a critical shortage of blood in our state, so I think that, that message was sent out very clearly today.

But I also think, it's really -- there's been just an outpouring of support, from the local community, and also throughout the nation, and I think those thoughts, those prayers, those -- that recognition of how hard this work is, is really, really meaningful to our teams, and our teams will need that, that help, going forward. COLLINS: Yes, I can only imagine. And please, give our thanks to them, because obviously, in moments as traumatic as this, they are the bright lights in this.

Dr. Thomas Wyatt, thank you for joining tonight.

WYATT: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next, I'm going to speak with the Mayor of Minneapolis, about everything that has happened, from the investigation, to the community that is very much still reeling, this evening.

[21:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, investigators believe the shooter, who killed an 8- and 10-year-old, during Mass, yesterday morning, was planning for an even deadlier attack.

Sources tell CNN that the shooter visited Annunciation Church, weeks ago, pretending to be interested in reconnecting with their Catholic faith. But the shooter used that visit to make a detailed hand-drawn diagram of the layout inside. In a journal, that was reviewed by CNN, the shooter described looking at door handles, calculating how to best-lock victims inside, and also noting where the teachers were located.

Officials say that during the attack, the shooter was unable to get inside, because the front door of the church was locked, a practice that was in place when Mass services begin. That forced the shooter to improvise and open fire through the church's narrow windows, outside, instead.

That journal, though, is among the hundreds of pages of writings that investigators are now poring over tonight, in search of a clear motive. But officials say that more than anything, the writer's shootings really just show pure, indiscriminate hate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE THOMPSON, ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MINNESOTA: One thing is clear. It's going to be hard to hear, but it's important to the question of why this happened. More than anything, the shooter wanted to kill children, defenseless children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight is the Minneapolis Mayor, Jacob Frey.

And Mr. Mayor, thank you for being here.

Because we are getting a lot of disturbing new information in tonight. But I do want to focus on the victims first, because we do now know their names, of the 8- and the 10-year-olds, who are who were murdered. Fletcher Merkel, whose father we heard from today. And Harper Moyski, whose parents put out that statement tonight.

And I just, as a father as yourself, what's going through your mind tonight?

[21:40:00]

MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: We all have our professional titles. But for me, it means far less than the titles that I have, of husband and dad.

And we got to be thinking of these kids as not just somebody else's kids. Think of them as if they were our own. Because that was one of the first things that was going through my mind, that morning, is I had just kissed my four and three quarters year-old-daughter, goodbye. I had just seen her, and you shove a bag of applesauce in their hand, you try to get their shoes tied, you try to get them out the door, and there's all these little annoyances. But the thing is, is you've got this deep love for your child.

And every parent should have the assurance that they can send their kid into school, or church, or out to play, without the fear of them getting hurt or killed where they might not come home.

And the fact that there are so many families that suffered this grave injustice, in our city, is incomprehensible. It's unspeakable. But how many times have we heard politicians talk like this in the past, where an unspeakable tragedy just happens again a couple of months later?

And so, we need to be doing a whole lot more than just talking. Our city is certainly united in grief, but we are also united in action. We need to make sure that this does not happen again.

COLLINS: Yes, when Harper's parents put out that statement tonight, describing their daughter, and talking about not only their hearts being broken, but her being a big sister, and what that meant for her sibling.

I just, one -- one part of their quote that stood out to me. They said, quote, No family should ever have to endure this kind of pain. We urge our leaders and communities to take meaningful steps to address gun violence and the mental health crisis in this country.

FREY: Yes. Yes.

COLLINS: They say, Change is possible, and it is necessary - so that Harper's story does not become yet another in a long line of tragedies.

What do you say to that?

FREY: Harper's family is right. We need to answer that call, and we need to get the job done. And so, what are we talking about? We need a state and federal ban on assault weapons. We need a state and federal ban on these huge capacity magazines, where you can reel off 30 bullets before you even need to reload. And here's the thing. If there's either the inability or the lack of will to get the job at those jurisdictions, let us do it in cities, because we suffer the consequences from the lack of action. Let us do it in Minneapolis.

When you've got guns coming into cities by the trunk load, and we have more guns in America than we have people? Clearly, we got a problem, and it's a problem that can be addressed. You know? This is not something like it's so complex, like curing cancer. We can actually do something that will make a difference, and we can do so in the immediacy.

COLLINS: Have you talked to Governor Walz about that?

FREY: We've had quite a few conversations, both with Governor Walz, as well as our legislative partners. And look, they want to make the necessary change, to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

Always, there's the question of a divided legislature. Always, there's the question of what can you get done, and what's reasonable to get done, during the legislative session. But at the same time, what I heard from legislators today, over at City Hall, was they want to put something forward. And obviously, they've got to have a whole lot of cities that are behind them, because we need to see the change now.

COLLINS: Yes, I just -- you got to think of the parents, obviously, when you hear that, and--

FREY: Yes.

COLLINS: --living through this time and time again.

And one thing that has been part of this is something you said to the country yesterday. In the immediate aftermath of this, you said, Don't just say this is about thoughts and prayers right now.

FREY: Right.

COLLINS: And as you know, that has sparked a huge reaction. And the Vice President seemed to respond to it today. I want you to listen to what Vice President JD Vance had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: When I see far left politicians say, How dare you offer thoughts and prayers, you need action. You know? I don't care about your prayers, I care about what you are going to do to prevent this from happening.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't you pray for the speedy recovery of these kids who literally just got shot yesterday, while at the same time committing to making sure this doesn't happen again, or that it happens as infrequently as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What's your response to that?

FREY: Well, maybe we're not really having an argument then, and hopefully JD Vance will pass this very necessary legislation that prevents kids from dying, in the future.

Because, look, I'm all for prayer. Prayer has a deep foundation for so many people, throughout our country. I'm all for thoughts. I mean, everything begins with a thought. But in this case, it's got to end with an action.

[21:45:00]

There's a principle in Judaism known as Tikkun Olam, which is about healing the world. And essentially, the meaning there is, prayers are good, but they are not enough. They are a necessity, but they are not in and of themselves, adequate. It's only adequate if you can attach an action to the work. And in this case, we know what the solutions are. They've been the same solutions three years ago, five years ago, 15 years ago.

Other countries around the world have suffered some of these horrible attacks, and they've said, You know what? That's not good. We're going to stop that from happening again. The only difference is here, we don't do that. Here, you see a tragedy in one city, and then next thing you know, there's a tragedy in the other. One of the most shocking thing's with how many texts I received from other mayors, who have experienced a mass shooting in a church or in a school. That's horrific in and of itself.

And so, to the extent Vice President JD Vance is saying he's going to act? God bless, I pray for you to act, I hope you act, because it's going to be that action that saves lives, in the future.

COLLINS: Mayor Jacob Frey, when you said that, about the texts from other mayors, I just, I was looking at the flowers that have been put outside the church, and one of them was from people in Uvalde, Texas. And just to see that, it was really striking.

Mayor Jacob Frey, thank you for taking the time to join us tonight.

FREY: Thank you for having me.

COLLINS: Coming up. We're going to talk about what police are doing with the information that they've been getting. Where this investigation goes from here, as it stands tonight. My law enforcement source is ahead.

[21:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, we're hearing more about what it was like, in that terrifying scene, inside the Annunciation Church, as a shooter opened fire from the outside, a scene that no 11-year-old should ever have to witness.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHLOE FRANCOUAL, ANNUNCIATION CATHOLIC SCHOOL STUDENT: So my mind, for some reason, keeps on replaying that exact scenario, when the teacher started, like the teacher was in the middle of saying our prayers, and then we heard just one shot. It felt -- I smelt smoke before everything, but I heard one shot. I thought it was a firework, like everybody else.

The second shot was just everybody just covering their ears. The third shot was when everybody started ducking low. And all these shots were like slow, until the fourth shot, it started getting faster and faster, and then that's when everybody took into action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My next source is the former -- the deputy -- former Deputy FBI Director, Andrew McCabe.

And it's just hard to hear a kid talk like that, because, of course, they thought it was fireworks, because they're children, and that's what they should be used to hearing, and not something like guns.

And I just, when you hear that, and when you see what investigators are doing, as they're relying, in large part, on kids like Chloe, to tell them what was happening inside the room. What does that mean for the investigation as it stands tonight?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Well, the investigation is in a particular place, because we know that the person responsible is no longer alive. So, it's not a typical criminal investigation in support of a prosecution.

We also know that the local law enforcement has essentially ruled out any other threats, and said they don't believe that anyone else was involved in planning or perpetuating the attack. So there's no one else to be prosecuted here.

Now the investigation continues, just to develop a better understanding of why -- how this person got to this place? What was the process? What were the reasons? What was the motive? What were they trying to accomplish? All those questions that are swirling in the minds of everyone in that community, and everyone in this country, right now, about this thing.

And I think, obviously the materials that we've had a chance to go through today, or over the last 24 hours, the written materials and the videos have shed a lot of light on that.

COLLINS: What about that they haven't been able to speak to the shooter's mom yet? That was the last we heard from them, which really stood out to me.

MCCABE: Yes, really bizarre. I mean, it's not the typical reaction. And then -- and I feel weird even saying that, because then people are like, What, is this typical? Well, yes, it is actually very typical. We have a lot of mass shootings, school shootings, church shootings, in this country.

So, it's not the way that the family members of the shooter typically react. They are usually at least initially cooperative. We have seen family members get charged, recently, in cases in Michigan and Georgia, for having had essentially knowledge and a role, in arming the shooter, and providing weapons, and knowing that there was a threat, a mental illness problem that went unaddressed.

[21:55:00]

But for the -- for the mother to not even return to the state, to answer law enforcement questions, to try to provide some assistance? I'm sure she's grieving for her daughter. But this is -- yes, it's a really perverse and strange element of this story, it's inexplicable to me at this point.

COLLINS: Yes. Andrew McCabe, we'll see if that changes. Thank you for joining us, as always.

MCCABE: Yes, thanks.

COLLINS: Still ahead here. How federal prosecutors, here in Washington, are changing tactics, after they could not get a grand jury indictment for one particular case that has stood out, amid President Trump's D.C. crime crackdown.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, federal prosecutors are slapping D.C.'s now infamous and alleged sandwich thrower, with a misdemeanor charge, after a grand jury rejected prosecutors' more serious felony assault charge.

[22:00:00]

Prosecutors say that Sean Charles Dunn, a former Justice Department attorney himself, threw a sub-style sandwich at federal agent, earlier this month, as he was cursing at officers, over the President's federal takeover, here in Washington.

But this is a remarkable outcome that they could not get this felony indictment, given prosecutors often get indictments through grand juries, quite easily. Hence the old saying, that you can indict a ham sandwich. Apparently, it doesn't apply here, to a sub.

A judge is now going to decide whether or not this case will proceed.

That's it for us tonight. Thanks so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.