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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Charlie Kirk Shooting Suspect Charged With Aggravated Murder; FBI Director Gets Into Shouting Matches With Dem Senators; Manchin: Need More Checks & Balances On Social Media. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 16, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Protesters managed to get in there, and project images of Jeffrey Epstein with Donald Trump, a timeline, an alleged timeline of their relationship on to the castle. Very quickly closed down by the police, who went up there and took out lots of equipment, and we know that four people have been arrested.
But just the type of event the authorities don't want Trump to see, so they're going to protect him from it.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
Max Foster, thanks very much. Appreciate it. In Windsor.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. See you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, we're in the U.K., for President Trump's second state visit. But back home, prosecutors have revealed the clearest window yet into the mindset of the man accused of killing Charlie Kirk.
The Deputy Attorney General for the United States will join me tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, the 22-year-old, accused of murdering Charlie Kirk, sat quietly, nodding along, as a judge read through the seven charges the state is bringing against him. Among them, obstruction of justice, witness tampering and the most serious, aggravated murder. Prosecutors said they will seek the death penalty for that.
Tyler Robinson's first court appearance came hours, after prosecutors revealed new evidence against him, in charging documents, including text messages from the day of the shooting, when officials say that Robinson confessed to his roommate and romantic partner, who is currently transitioning genders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF GRAY, UTAH COUNTY ATTORNEY: The roommate received a text message from Robinson which said, Drop what you're doing, look under my keyboard.
The roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note that stated, quote, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to take it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After finding that note, prosecutors say that Robinson's roommate immediately texted him back, What, with 14 question marks, adding You're joking, right?
Apparently in disbelief, the roommate asked again, You weren't the one who did it right?
To which Robinson responded, I am, I'm sorry.
The roommate then asked, I thought they caught the person?
And Robinson replied, quote, No, they grabbed some crazy old dude, then interrogated someone in similar clothing.
Later, in their text exchange, Robinson has -- asked a key question that has remained unanswered in this case, why he did it. To which he responded to that message. Quote, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out.
According to prosecutors, Robinson also confessed the next day to his parents.
Robinson's mom saw photos of the person of interest that had been released by the FBI, when they needed help finding the person. She thought it looked like her son, so prosecutors said she called him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAY: He said he was at home sick, and that he had also been at home -- home sick on September 10th. Robinson's mother expressed concern to her husband that the suspect shooter looked like Robinson. Robinson's father agreed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Unconvinced about their son's alibi, they convinced him to return home, where, according to prosecutors, Robinson gave a similar explanation for why he did it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAY: Robinson implied that he was the shooter and stated that he couldn't go to jail and just wanted to end it. When asked why he did it, Robinson explained, there is too much evil, and the guy, referring to Charlie Kirk, spreads too much hate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Robinson's mom also told investigators more about her son's political views.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAY: Robinson's mother explained that over the last year or so, Robinson had become more political and had started to lean more to the left, becoming more pro gay and trans rights oriented. She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate, a biological male who was transit -- transitioning genders. This resulted in several discussions with family members, but especially between Robinson and his father, who have very different political views.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: We're also getting some insight from prosecutors into those messages that were engraved on the bullet casings. In one text from Robinson to his roommate, he wrote about those messages and said, Remember how I was engraving bullets? The effing messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices on Fox News, I might have a stroke.
As we are learning all of this from prosecutors and waiting to see what happens next. My lead source tonight is the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche.
And thank you, sir, for being here.
Because now we know, obviously, what the state plans to charge Tyler Robinson with. Do you expect to bring federal charges against him as well?
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're still looking at that, Kaitlan. I mean, there's -- there's a lot of evidence to go through, and there's a big difference between the state charges, which are very serious, carry the death penalty, and charges that the federal government could potentially bring. So, that's not something we need to rush and make a decision on.
He's in custody. The state's -- the state's already brought charges against him. And we're looking at all the evidence, some of what you've already been talking about tonight, Kaitlan, to determine whether federal charges are appropriate. And if they are? Yes, we will bring them.
COLLINS: OK. Because ABC News said that the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, when they interviewed her yesterday, told them federal charges are expected. But it sounds like that's still something that you are very much deliberating inside the Justice Department tonight.
BLANCHE: Well, I think when you say when federal charges are expected, is right. I mean, we're looking at everything we can do to bring charges if appropriate. But again, this isn't something we need to rush. This is something where the state has already brought charges. They brought charges that carry the death penalty. And so, if at the right time, federal charges are appropriate? Of course, we'll bring them. COLLINS: OK. And for people who aren't sure -- you know, not every murder is a federal crime. You need a federal angle, basically. So, we'll see if you guys decide to move forward with that.
Can I ask you, though, because Stephen Miller, over at the White House, said that he believed there was an organized campaign that led to Charlie Kirk's assassination. When you looked at the charging documents today, though, I didn't see a reference to one. Have you seen evidence otherwise, on that front?
BLANCHE: Like I said, this -- this assassination happened less than a week ago. And so, there's still a tremendous amount of evidence that we're going through, and there's a tremendous amount of documents that we're going through.
What Stephen was talking about is something that we've seen all too frequently, over the past several years, which is this spew of hatred and violence from certain parts of this country. And you have evidence of what this -- of what this man was doing online. And so, the idea that he was indoctrinated with violence and hatred that would result in what happened to Charlie is something that we're looking at.
But it is way too early for us to say one way or the other, whether we have evidence that suggests that -- that there were organized groups that did -- that committed or helped commit this crime, or gave him the motivation to commit this crime. That's something that we're looking at. And that's what -- that's what Stephen said today, too, in his -- in his interview and his meetings about that, is that it's something that we're very focused on, in this administration.
COLLINS: One thing the administration has also been focused on is talking about going after these left-leaning organizations. We've heard it from Stephen Miller, from the Vice President, from President Trump himself.
There has been some confusion over who exactly the administration is targeting. Can you say who that is?
BLANCHE: I don't think there's confusion about who we're targeting, Kaitlan. We've been very clear about who we're targeting. To the extent that there are organized groups, raising money, with the intent to organize individuals to commit acts of violence, whether it's against law enforcement, whether it's against individuals, whether it's against people in this administration, whether it's against Democrats, we're going to go after them.
That's not been confusing. It's something that everybody has been very consistent on with messaging, which is that we're not going to stand by and let -- and let people behind-the-scenes fund people who are actually terrorists.
And that includes people that are throwing rocks at ICE trucks, people who are assaulting officers during supposedly peaceful protests, which are not peaceful at all. That's what we're focused on. And there's -- there's no confusion within the Department of Justice that that's our focus. COLLINS: But which groups specifically are you talking about?
BLANCHE: Well, there's all -- look, I'm not going to -- going to name groups here. That's not fair to them. And you haven't heard people within the administration come out and name groups.
That being said, we know, we know that when there are these violent protests against ICE, against other individuals, that it is not just by luck or happenstance that those people show up with gas masks, that they show up with rocks, with chunks of brick. That doesn't just happen by sheer luck. There's an organized effort to do that, and that's who we're looking at.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: OK. I just think people have raised questions, because there isn't any evidence that the assassin here, the suspect, was in a group. Obviously, as you say, you're still going through information, and obviously what that looks like.
The President has said that in light of this, he'd consider naming the far-left, anti-fascist group, Antifa, as a domestic terrorist group. But does designating it, as that, carry any extra significance under the existing law, as it is tonight?
BLANCHE: Well, whenever you identify an entity as a terrorist organization or a terrorist group, there's a certain amount of weight and power that that carries within law enforcement, whether it's federal law enforcement or state and local law enforcement.
And so yes, of course, by the President of the United States designating an organization as a terrorist organization -- as a terrorist group, or a terrorist organization, that has a lot of power and it has a lot of weight. And it's something President Trump takes very seriously. As he said yesterday in the Oval Office, it's something that we're looking at. It's something that I think every American wants us to look at. And if it's right that they should be labeled as such, they will be.
COLLINS: You were in the Oval Office, when the President was talking about that yesterday. He also talked about racketeering charges. At one point, he referenced the women that were protesting him, at the seafood restaurant, when he was at dinner, the other night, outside the White House.
This is what he said in the Oval, for those who missed it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The people -- there were a lot of people in the restaurant. I went there to show how safe, and it was safe. I mean, the woman is just a mouthpiece, or she was -- she was a paid -- she was a paid agitator, and you have a lot of them. And I've asked Pam to look into that in terms of RICO, bringing RICO cases against them -- criminal RICO, because they should be put in jail. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As you know, RICO has been used to go after like al Qaeda, MS-13, the Gambino family. How would something like that protest fall under a RICO charge?
BLANCHE: That's not what we use RICO for only. RICO is available to all kinds of organizations committing crimes and committing wrongful acts, not just organized crime or ISIS or terrorist organizations. And so, it depends.
So is it, again, sheer happenstance that individuals show up at a restaurant, where the President is trying to enjoy dinner, in Washington, D.C., and accost him with vile words and vile anger? And meanwhile, he's simply trying to have dinner. Does it mean it's just completely random that they showed up? Maybe. Maybe.
But to the extent that it's part of an organized effort, to inflict harm and terror and damage to the United States, there's potential -- potential investigations there. And that's -- that's what the President was saying, yesterday, in the Oval Office, and what he's also has said in the days before that as well.
COLLINS: But were those women in the restaurant inflicting harm, or terror, or damage, by protesting the President of the United States? I mean, they were just shouting basically in his vicinity.
BLANCHE: I mean, repeat what you just said. I mean, honestly. So, you're asking whether there's damage done by four individuals, screaming and yelling at the President of our United States while he's trying to have dinner. That can't be a serious question. That cannot be a serious question. I mean, it's true that there's a difference between shouting and committing an assassination--
COLLINS: People can protest the President.
BLANCHE: --committing an assassination, which is what happened to Charlie.
COLLINS: There were supporters outside as well.
BLANCHE: Well it depend -- there's nothing wrong with peaceful protests, and nobody has ever said so. Of all the people in this country, President Trump knows exactly what it's like, to have people protest against him.
But what he's talking about, and what the administration is talking about, is organized efforts by individuals, who are not present at the protests, but they're funding these protests, and they're not protests. They're inflicting damage and harm, and actually assaulting officers. They're damaging vehicles. And that's the conduct that we're trying to stop.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, people would argue about the ability to have free speech and to protest the government and criticize the government. Something that the Attorney General, Pam Bondi said, last night, about free speech has gotten a lot of focus today. These were the comments that she made.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There's free speech and then there's hate speech. And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie, in our society.
We will absolutely target you, go after you, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Does this Justice Department agree that what you would call, what some people would call, hate speech, obviously, it's different definitions to different people, that that is covered by the First Amendment?
[21:15:00]
BLANCHE: No, we're not the Democrat Party. That's not what we target. And that's not in any way what the Attorney General meant. As she made crystal clear, all day today, we are targeting violence. When there are individuals who are using words, threatening murder, threatening violence, threatening to harm people? That's what we're targeting. And that's what's happening all too often in this country.
And so no, this isn't about the right to say whatever you want about me, or about President Trump, or about you. It's when you're threatening to inflict violence or harm on individuals, that's where this Department of Justice will not stand for.
COLLINS: But you would agree that hate speech is covered by the First Amendment?
BLANCHE: Yes, of course, hate speech is covered by the First Amendment, and everybody thinks that -- the Republican Party, and this administration, believes in that more than most, having been subjected to what we've been subjected to, for the last several years. We -- and Charlie spoke about that repeatedly, because it's true.
And so no, this is not about words that are used. It's about words that are used when they're threatening violence, murder, when they're threatening to kill people. That's what we cannot tolerate in this country.
COLLINS: Yes, and that was the caveat we saw Attorney General, Pam Bondi, put out today. And obviously, you're right. Charlie Kirk has had spoken at length about that, and about that being allowed.
Todd, let me ask you, because the President is coming here for a state visit. He arrived in London just a few (ph) hours ago. We're here at Windsor Castle. And tonight, images of him with Jeffrey Epstein were actually projected on the castle behind me. People were arrested, as a result of that.
But this comes after you sat face-to-face with Ghislaine Maxwell for nine hours. Do you believe her?
BLANCHE: I mean, listen, I think that -- that people are going to do what they're going to do, and they're going to say what they're going to say.
And there's -- there's a lot of important work that we're doing every day. And so, the fact that that is still what we're focused on today, in the wake of everything that's happening, in the wake of the work of what President Trump's doing, over the next several days, is incredibly unfortunate. But we're going to keep on doing our job, and keep on doing what we need to do.
COLLINS: But when you met with her, did you find her to be credible?
BLANCHE: It's an impossible question to answer. I met with her for two days. To determine whether a witness is credible takes weeks and weeks and weeks. I asked her questions that -- that I believe all of us wanted answered, and she answered them. She answered them.
I didn't -- the point of the interview was not for me to pressure-test every single answer she gave. Of course, not. The point of the interview was to give her an opportunity to speak, which nobody had done before. And so, she had been -- she had been in prison for many, many years, and she had offered to speak on many, many occasions, and she was never given that opportunity. And so, what I did is I gave her that opportunity to speak. It was recorded. My questions were there.
And whether -- whether her answers were credible or truthful, there's a lot of information out there about -- about Mr. Epstein, about her, and whether she -- what she said is completely wrong, or completely right, or a little of both, is for -- that's the reason why we released the transcript. That's why we were transparent about the questions I asked, and the answers she gave, is because it's really up to the American people to determine whether they believe that her answers were credible, or whether they found her not credible.
COLLINS: Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, we really appreciate you coming on, to answer questions on the Kirk assassination investigation, and all these other issues that are front and center for the administration. Really appreciate your time tonight.
Up next. We'll speak with Senator Ted Cruz, who questioned the FBI director, Kash Patel, during a fiery hearing today that was hours- long, at times pretty contentious. We'll see what his takeaways are from that hearing, right after a commercial break.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Members of both parties, on Capitol Hill, were questioning the FBI director's handling of everything, from the Epstein files, to the firing of FBI agents, to the Kirk assassination investigation that's been underway.
Today, Kash Patel was on Capitol Hill. He got an earful, and also gave one right back to the Senate Judiciary Committee. At times, the work of congressional oversight devolved into shouting matches, between Patel and other members of the committee, including Senator Cory Booker.
And among those, who witnessed it all, and expressed some views of his own, was Senator Ted Cruz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: If you want to work on bringing this country -- it's my time, not yours. If you--
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): My God. My God. You're going to lecture me--
PATEL: If you want to talk about--
BOOKER: --about dividing this country?
PATEL: It is my time.
BOOKER: I followed you on your social media posts--
(GAVEL BANGING)
PATEL: It is my time to--
BOOKER: --that tear this country apart. So, it should be a unifying--
PATEL: --address your falsehoods.
BOOKER: Oh--
(CROSSTALK)
PATEL: --to the division in this country.
BOOKER: You can try all you want to not take responsibility--
PATEL: It is my time. You had your time.
BOOKER: --for what you have said.
PATEL: Your time is over.
BOOKER: Sir, you are making a mockery of this--
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Chairman, you know, I have to say, it used to be that to see theater you had to go to the Kennedy Center. Now, apparently you need only go to the Senate Judiciary Committee, and see our Senate Democrats berating the Director of the FBI, which, OK, it's not -- partisan politics is not new in the United States Congress.
Do you believe Antifa is a terrorist organization? PATEL: I believe Antifa is associated with a lot of violence in this country. As to its designation, I'll leave that to the appropriate authorities.
CRUZ: So, I would encourage the administration to designate Antifa as a terrorist organization, to go systematically after Antifa. They've committed acts of violence, all over the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And joining me now is Senator Ted Cruz.
And Senator, I think you've probably been part of some theatrical moments of your own, in some of those hearings. Obviously got quite contentious, it points today.
[21:25:00]
But what you were arguing there, and what you were talking there about with the Director, Kash Patel, was actually something President Trump himself talked about five years ago, when he said the U.S. was going to designate Antifa as a terrorist organization.
You and Senator Cassidy had actually introduced a resolution calling for that, one year before. Do you know why it didn't happen then? And do you expect it to happen now?
CRUZ: I do think it's going to happen now, and I'm urging the Department of Justice, and the FBI, and the entire administration to do so.
And more broadly, what I'm urging them to do, and at the hearing today, what I urged Director Patel to do, is follow the money, that much of this violence that we've seen is not organic, that there is real money that is funding it.
So, the Black Lives Matter, and Antifa riots all over the country, there was real money behind that. The anti-Israel, antisemitic riots on college campuses, there was real money behind that. The open border riots we saw in L.A., and across the country, there's real money behind that. I'm not the only person who noticed that at the antisemitic protests, on college campuses, many of the tents all matched.
And so, what I'm urging the Department of Justice to do is look at who's funding it. And indeed, I've introduced legislation to aid in that. It's called the Stop FUNDERs Act.
And what that legislation would do is very simple. It adds rioting to the list of predicate offenses under RICO. And that would enable the Department of Justice to use RICO, a very powerful tool, for going after organized crime, not just to go after the people committing specific acts of violence, but to go after those who are writing checks to foment that violence. And I think that would have a massive effect, pulling back and limiting this violence.
COLLINS: Yes, but can I ask you on just the Antifa part of this. What existing federal law--
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: --would give the President, or the State Department, the authority to be able to designate a domestic group as a terrorist organization? Is there one?
CRUZ: Well, what I have called for, they're clearly carrying out acts of terrorism. They're carrying them out domestically. They're organizing. They're engaged in direct acts of violence.
And indeed, one of the things that I asked Director Patel is, what evidence is there that there are other people who had foreknowledge of this assassin's assassination of Charlie Kirk. We know that he was engaged in Reddit conversations with others, and we know that the shell casings that he used in the rifle had Antifa slogans on them, and had transgender slogans on them.
And it appears, from what's been reporting, that there were extensive discussions in various Reddit and Discord organizations, to the extent others had foreknowledge and aided and assisted. That may well be a manifestation of Antifa violence or transgender violence. We've seen a disproportionate incident of transgender violence as well. And so, organizing--
COLLINS: Well--
CRUZ: --examining what groups potentially are behind these acts of violence. I think it is overwhelmingly clear, things like the antisemitic protests had money behind it. With respect to Charlie Kirk's murder, that is not determined yet.
COLLINS: Yes. On something--
CRUZ: But I think it should be investigated very thoroughly.
COLLINS: Yes, as Todd Blanche, the Deputy Attorney General, just said, right now they don't have any evidence of an organization. Obviously, they're still looking into this.
But on the bullet casings, I don't remember there being a transgender one on there. I remember him saying -- there was one that said, If you could read this, you're gay. It was referencing internet memes.
But on what you just said there about investigating--
CRUZ: Yes, there is -- hold on a second, Kaitlan. There is a transgender woman--
COLLINS: --groups and who's funding them, if there is funding--
CRUZ: Hold on, Kaitlan -- Kaitlan? There is a transgender.
COLLINS: Go ahead.
CRUZ: There's a reference to, Do you see my bulge, which is, and I'm told, is an online meme for transgenderism. And Director Patel testified that the murderer here was living with his romantic partner, who was a transgender man transitioning to being a woman. And so, you have both the shell casing that directly references transgenderism. And in fact, Charlie Kirk was murdered moments after he was asked a question about transgender--
COLLINS: Yes. Yes.
CRUZ: --mass shootings, and that's -- that's when the shooter fired. And so, do we have conclusive proof at this case? No.
COLLINS: Well, hold on, Senator. Hold on a second, because yes--
CRUZ: But I will say this. Some of the most disturbing polling numbers that I see are the number of Democrats who believe--
COLLINS: OK, but Senator--
CRUZ: --that this left-wing activist was somehow a Republican. I mean that -- that really shows the media not -- not doing the job they should be doing.
COLLINS: OK. Senator, but -- but one moment, because you said a lot there. And we don't have a motive yet. We don't know yet. We're waiting. Obviously, we've heard what the Governor's had to say, what the FBI director said today.
CRUZ: Of course, we know. But come on, we don't have a motive yet?
COLLINS: We know--
CRUZ: We don't -- we don't have a motive yet? Really?
COLLINS: We know what's happening with--
CRUZ: Really? That's CNN's position?
COLLINS: I mean from law enforcement, Senator.
CRUZ: He just happened to fire the gun in celebration. You can't tell the motive yet?
COLLINS: Senator, that's not what I said. And I said law enforcement hasn't laid out a direct motive. They've laid out a lot of evidence here, of these messages--
[21:30:00]
CRUZ: Actually, they have. They've said that he was a left-wing activist who hated Charlie Kirk.
COLLINS: --and what he should have said to family members and to roommates.
CRUZ: Pardon? COLLINS: Senator, with all due respect, you know exactly what I'm saying. I'm not arguing with you politically. I'm saying that law enforcement has not put a specific motive. You know that there's a difference of what they're pointing in a legal argument than what you're talking about.
CRUZ: They have. That statement is false.
COLLINS: And you're not even -- we're not even arguing about--
CRUZ: What you just said is false.
COLLINS: --the facts here because--
CRUZ: What you just said is false, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Senator--
CRUZ: Kaitlan? Kaitlan?
COLLINS: No.
CRUZ: Facts -- hold on a second. Let me answer your statement, because what you said is factually false.
COLLINS: Senator, with all due respect--
CRUZ: Law enforcement--
COLLINS: With all due respect, you're -- you are putting a lot of statements that I did not say.
CRUZ: So, you don't want facts. OK. Go ahead. Go ahead. Give your speech.
COLLINS: And I want to get back to -- we just laid out the facts in the opening of this show, what we learned from prosecutors today.
CRUZ: OK. You just said law enforcement has not laid out a motive. That is objectively false.
COLLINS: And we just spoke to the Deputy Attorney General. So the--
CRUZ: That is objectively false. What you are saying is objectively false--
COLLINS: They have not said a concrete motive of exactly what it was.
CRUZ: --and CNN should not be engaged in misinformation.
COLLINS: They've laid out every evidence that we know so far.
CRUZ: Kaitlan, answer my question.
COLLINS: It's not misinformation, Senator. You--
CRUZ: Have you seen the polling that shows the vast majority--
COLLINS: You are taking what I said about that.
CRUZ: --of the Democrats believe this murderer is a Republican and a Trump supporter? Have you seen that polling?
COLLINS: Let me get back to my questions, though, Senator, because the question here--
CRUZ: You're not going to answer that question?
COLLINS: --was actually what you were saying about investigations--
CRUZ: Are you going to answer that question? You have seen that polling.
COLLINS: --that you'd like to see--
CRUZ: So, you're not going to answer the question.
COLLINS: Senator, I'm the one asking the questions here. And the question--
CRUZ: No, we were having a conversation. I understand that you want to say things that are factually false--
COLLINS: --of you saying that right-wing -- or the left-wing groups need to be investigated to where their financing is coming.
CRUZ: --and then you don't actually want the facts -- you don't actually want the facts laid out.
COLLINS: Do you believe that right-wing groups also need to be investigated?
CRUZ: OK, give your speech. Tell me -- go ahead--
COLLINS: That's not true, Senator. I'm asking you a question.
CRUZ: I don't know what your question is, because we have a delay--
COLLINS: You said that you believe that--
CRUZ: --because you're in England, so I can't hear what you're saying.
COLLINS: You said that you believe that left-wing groups should be investigated. You want to know where the financing is coming from for protests.
CRUZ: Yes.
COLLINS: Do you believe that they should also be looking into right- wing groups as well? Or do you believe it should only be limited to that?
CRUZ: Look, I believe anyone engaged in acts of violence should be prosecuted and go to jail.
But I will say, there has been an enormous amount, and CNN has been guilty of this, of both-sides-ism, of saying, Gosh, both sides are violent.
And understand, yes, there is some violence on both sides, but it is the left that overwhelmingly celebrates this. It is leftists that have been celebrating. You look at Bluesky, and it is a cesspool of leftists celebrating the murder of Charlie Kirk.
You look at recent polling that shows over 50 percent of Democrats saying, violence against Elon Musk is justified, violence against Donald Trump is justified. You look at Democrats, who do things like what Kamala Harris did, of giving money and urging people to give money to bail out violent rioters in Antifa riots. It is only one side that justifies this violent -- violence.
My view is, if you commit acts of violence, you should be prosecuted. And so, yes, we should follow the money. Anyone funding acts of violence, we should go after.
COLLINS: But Senator, I think--
CRUZ: But this is a left-wing problem.
COLLINS: How can you argue that it's -- I think the argument that people have been talking about recently is what's going on with the Charlie Kirk case. I think people have raised that, because there have been other acts of political violence as well, when it comes to targeting Democrats. I mean, we've seen that with a lawmaker who was killed in Minnesota, this summer, alongside her husband. We've seen it with the break-in at Nancy Pelosi house.
CRUZ: But the assassin there was a deranged -- the assassin was--
COLLINS: We've also seen it with Justice Brett Kavanaugh and others.
CRUZ: Hold on a second. If you're -- if you're going to say facts, get -- you need to get your facts right. The assassin there was not a right-wing assassin, acting on a political motive. The assassin there was someone who had been an appointee of Tim Walz, and he was a deranged lunatic.
And yes, there are deranged lunatics who attack people, both right and left. But if you look at murders carried out for political agendas, they are overwhelmingly on the left. Whether it is the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the two assassination attempts of Donald Trump, the assassination attempt on Brett Kavanaugh. Over and over and over again. Whether it was the congressional shooter who came to Washington to the baseball game and said, I want to find congressional base--
COLLINS: And sir, we've pointed all of those -- we've noted all of those instances.
CRUZ: --Republicans to attack.
COLLINS: We noted all those instances.
CRUZ: Well, but it is a disproportionate problem.
COLLINS: But sir, we're also noting that there had been others, including the Democratic lawmakers--
CRUZ: And look at the reaction.
COLLINS: --who were targeted just a couple of months ago. So, I think that is the point that people have made here--
CRUZ: But it wasn't by a Republican for a political agenda.
COLLINS: --when they've heard the administration say they're going to go after left-wing groups--
CRUZ: And by the way, that lunatic should be prosecuted and go to jail.
So, what I'm not doing is what leftists are doing.
COLLINS: And--
CRUZ: Leftists are celebrating that murder.
COLLINS: But Senator, can I ask a question here?
CRUZ: I think the murder in Minnesota was horrible. It was horrible, and that -- and that violent criminal should be prosecuted and going to jail. You would have a point if I said, Gosh, let's set up a bail fund for that murderer. Then you'd have a point. But -- but it's only one side that is doing that.
Do you agree that on Bluesky, there are thousands of leftists celebrating and reveling in the murder of Charlie Kirk?
COLLINS: OK. Senator, I don't think that anyone should celebrate someone's murder--
CRUZ: The facts, are you going to agree it--
COLLINS: --regardless of what that person believed in (ph).
CRUZ: But do you agree that they are? You're right, no one should but--
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: And I don't think Bluesky is representative of how people feel. If you celebrate it, I think that's wrong, and I think that's evil.
CRUZ: It's representative of leftists.
COLLINS: And Senator Ted Cruz, thanks for your time tonight.
CRUZ: It's only left-wingers are on it.
COLLINS: Senator Ted Cruz, thanks for your time tonight.
Up next. With two parties seemingly more divided than ever, there's a question about whether there is an off-ramp. We're going to speak with former Senator Joe Manchin, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, House Speaker, Mike Johnson, is urging political leaders to turn down the temperature, following Charlie Kirk's assassination.
[21:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Leaders cannot call their political opponent -- opponents, Nazis and fascists and enemies of the state, because they disagree with their policy priorities. I mean this -- this is something we should have learned in grade school.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You hear Johnson's plea there.
Of course, that stands in contrast to what we've heard from President Trump about his own perceived political enemies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a fascist person running who's incompetent.
What's happened to our country, it's not even believable. Our one chance to save America from these left-wing fascists.
She's a Marxist communist, fascist, socialist. She's not actually a socialist. She's gone past that.
You have corrupt media in this country, and it truly is the enemy of the people.
A few days ago, I called the fake news, the enemy of the people, and they are. They are the enemy of the people.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: A collection of comments from Trump there, over the years.
Tonight, joining me is the former Independent senator from West Virginia, Joe Manchin, also a former Democrat, who obviously has tried to bring people together, and has talked about this, in his new book, "Dead Center: In Defense of Common Sense."
JOE MANCHIN, FORMER U.S. SENATOR (I-WV): Yes.
COLLINS: It is in stores now.
I think a lot of people would agree that we could use some more common sense, Senator.
And you write in your book about an open line of communication that you had with President Trump, in his first term.
I wonder if you had his ear now, based on what you've heard from the administration in recent days, what you would say about a chance to bring the country together.
MANCHIN: What I would say to President Trump, and what I'm saying tonight to President Trump, is the country needs a comforter-in-chief. You are the Commander-in-Chief. But sir, in all sincerity, we need a comforter-in-chief. We need people to bring us together to calm this down, to calm down the rhetoric. This is ridiculous, going back and forth and accusing everybody.
My heart goes out, I swear, my prayers and heart goes out to Charlie Kirk's family, his widow, his two beautiful little children. This is horrific.
And it's happening all too frequently across the country. You can blame all we want. We can talk and point fingers to everybody. That's not going to cure it.
And people are talking about a war, and they want a crusade? The only crusade this country needs, Kaitlan, is a crusade for civility, which we've lost. The decorum and civility that should go with this great experiment for us to govern ourself? It's here and now being tested.
Mr. President, Donald Trump, please, I'm asking you, consider being our comforter-in-chief. Bring us together. This is what I'm praying for.
COLLINS: The one thing we've heard from his administration is, what this is going to look like, going forward, going after, what they say is left-wing extremist groups. We don't really know what that's going to look like. Maybe stripping some of them of their tax-exempt status. But even that would be -- have some legal obstacles.
Do you share concerns that some of your Democratic colleagues, who are, you know -- where you used to work, over in the Senate, that they would use that to go after people who say things they don't agree with?
MANCHIN: Well, there's the freedom of speech, OK? The First Amendment is the freedom of speech. The freedom of speech has guardrails. You just can't say anything you want that create riots and hardships and harm to other people.
But let me just tell you. The President himself said yesterday, this young man was raised in a -- appearing, a very loving family. He was extremely bright. If -- the accused -- the accused assassin. He was extremely bright. And he was radicalized by the internet.
If anyone's looking at -- we all understand that there is no checks and balances on these social media platforms. They're not held accountable and responsible. Just put the same guardrails on the social platforms that we have in the Constitution on the freedom of speech. It's pretty simple.
And you know, you go out and harm is done, because of what you allowed on your platform, and there was no checks and balances? You're going to be held accountable. It would slow this down.
Think about this, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Yes.
MANCHIN: You can't see -- you can't see on TikTok in China, what you can see TikTok in America. Don't you think something's wrong?
COLLINS: Yes.
MANCHIN: Don't you think people are doing this intentionally--
COLLINS: Well--
MANCHIN: --and using this mass media open thing, with all the immunity and protection to do more harm than good?
COLLINS: Yes, and Senator, obviously -- obviously, that has been a question of what you know, if Congress is going to do anything, here as a result of this. It's not -- it doesn't seem totally to be the case.
But can I ask you, because you left the Democratic Party and became an Independent in 2024. You still caucus with the Democrats.
MANCHIN: Right.
COLLINS: But in your book, you write about that election, saying that because of what you knew and what you had seen firsthand, you said, I wanted Republicans to win the Senate majority in 2024. I believed it was the only hope for preserving the Senate as an institution.
[21:45:00]
Given what you've seen in the last nine months of this Republican trifecta, including with Leader Thune recently approving a rules changes, when it comes to approving the President's nominees. Are you satisfied with how Republicans have governed over in the Senate?
MANCHIN: I'm very concerned about -- we still have the filibuster still intact, as far as against any types of laws that can be done with a 51-vote threshold. Because when a law was able to be done, it can be undone just as quick, and we start flip-flopping back and forth. We'd be no different than the House. But as they're chipping away -- and I have talked to my friends, I've talked to my Republican friends in Congress, in the Senate, and I've asked them, I said, Be extremely careful what you're doing, because what goes around comes around. We've been there long enough to see when someone thinks they're fixing something over here, they've opened the door to make it more horrible on the other side, and it just exasperates itself. So, this is not fixing things.
They're not talking to each other. Kaitlan, nobody knows anybody. They do not know each other. And when you're talking to people, it's easy to have what we just saw, this rhetoric that is just fumed, and with -- with a lot of -- with a lot of emotions. But it's easy to say -- it's easy to say no to someone you don't like. It's hard to say no to a friend, someone you're working with, someone you respect, and that's the problem. That's why we need a crusade on civility.
COLLINS: Former Senator, Joe Manchin, your new book is out now. It is titled "Dead Center," and again, it is an appeal to common sense. Really appreciate you joining us tonight.
Up next for us. President Trump is in the United -- the United Kingdom for a historic second state visit. Obviously, as we noted, the Jeffrey Epstein scandal has been casting a shadow, literally, all the way across the Atlantic. We'll tell you how, right after this.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're on the ground here in Windsor, where, not long ago, President Trump landed nearby in the U.K., for his second state visit.
Political activists, here in Windsor, though, as the President is set to arrive tomorrow, projected images at one point, of him and Jeffrey Epstein, onto the walls of Windsor Castle, to draw attention to their past relationship. Authorities arrested four people, a short time later.
And of course, this comes after the British ambassador to the United States was fired for his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
Tomorrow, the President will head here to the castle, for a lavish welcome from the Royal Family.
I'm joined now by CNN's Max Foster.
And obviously, one question, given the sacking, as you would put it, of the British ambassador to the U.S. is, how worried are they about this hanging over this big, unprecedented state visit?
FOSTER: Well, more so now. We've seen two stunts today. The one you just showed there. But also, a massive poster of the same photo of Trump and Epstein appeared earlier in Windsor as well.
I think for a lot of the groups expected to protest, Epstein is really a thread that speaks to a corruption at the top of society, and it's coming again (ph). So Prince Andrew, Peter Mandelson, also Donald Trump, who's very unpopular here, always has been, but polling worse than ever.
So, I think it's an opportunity for them to have a go at the top of society, how they operate, and it's a -- it's becoming a theme in those protest groups, many of them, and they'll be protesting out in London, tomorrow. So, maybe we'll see more. I think Epstein for them is something that they can unite around. It's a--
COLLINS: Yes.
FOSTER: --it's a sick idea, but it speaks to a problem that they see in society.
COLLINS: Well, and in terms of the Royal Family, as they're going to be greeting the President and first lady Melania Trump, tomorrow. Based on what you've seen with other state visits, I mean, how amplified is this going to be? What should we be expecting tomorrow?
FOSTER: Well, it's screaming. You won't necessarily see it. But they are trying to roll out the red carpet in a way they've never done before in history, really.
So, you'll see a Guard of Honor, for example. Normally, it would be one company of troops that the President will inspect. We've got three, this time. So, that's never been done -- before. Very complex operation. 1,300 members of the military. In terms of the gun salute, which will officially start all of the state ceremony tomorrow, there'll be more guns than we've ever had at a state ceremony.
So, you won't necessarily see it. You might feel it. But I think there'll be lots of things for the King to point to, to say, This is a really special moment, and we've never done this for anyone. It's flattery, really.
COLLINS: Yes. Oh, I mean, the minute that Keir Starmer brought out that invitation in the Oval Office, it's a huge card for him to be able to play, to try to ingratiate himself to President Trump, to have that warm relationship, and to stay on his good side when it comes to tariffs and everything else.
FOSTER: Absolutely. And I think, obviously, for Starmer, he needs to get some wins out of this. He desperately needs them. Actually, this Mandelson affair has been the latest scandal which has absolutely rocked him. Members of his own party coming out calling for him to go already. He needs some wins.
So, I think, if Donald Trump can go away feeling flattered, that's one thing. If there's some policy wins, they're talking down, talk of a trade deal on this side. I don't know what you're hearing. But anything on Ukraine, anything he can point to.
COLLINS: Yes. Max Foster, we are going to be very busy tomorrow, and we'll be here, covering all of this, live--
FOSTER: Good show. COLLINS: --as we are watching every moment of this state visit, and just how different it is compared to others. So, we'll be having all that coverage live here on CNN. Don't miss it, starting tomorrow.
Also today, there was a major ruling, back home, in favor of Luigi Mangione, who is accused of killing the UnitedHealthcare CEO. We'll update you on that front, right ahead.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Before we go, three things that you might have missed today.
Israel's military says that its newly launched ground incursion to take over Gaza City is expected to take, quote, Several months, as Israel says it intends to take out Hamas targets. As the operation further displaces hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, with local health authorities saying that Israel's escalating operation has killed more than a 100 Palestinians in less than 24 hours.
This comes as one United Nations Commission has concluded that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Accusations that Israel has denied.
There's also a legal win when it comes to Luigi Mangione's team, the man accused of killing the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, last year, with a New York judge tossing out two terror-related murder charges today, ruling that there is no evident of -- evidence of such intent.
That's a decision that spares the 27-year-old from facing mandatory life in prison without parole. Mangione is still facing a second degree murder charge that would carry a life sentence -- or a sentence of 25 years to life, if he's convicted.
[22:00:00]
Also tomorrow, we are going to hear from the former CDC Director, Dr. Susan Monarez, as she is set to give her detailed account, for the first time, after she was fired following a clash with the Health and Human Services Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., over vaccines. Monarez was ousted less than a month into her job, only 29 days into the job.
And in prepared testimony, we are told that she will tell senators, on Capitol Hill, that RFK Jr. required that CDC policies be cleared by political staff, adding, quote, "I was fired for holding the line on scientific integrity I had refused to commit to approving vaccine recommendations without evidence, fire career officials without cause, or resign."
Watch her full testimony, here on CNN, tomorrow.
Thanks so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
