Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Shutdown Causes Staffing Shortages, Flight Delays At Airports; Trump Today: Chicago's A "War Zone" & Portland "Is On Fire"; Trump Rejects Concerns His Comments Could Impact Comey Case. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 06, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: But the Americans had this incredible task to prove a case against him, before the Italians just let him go into a refugee camp, from which he would easily escape.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Wow. It's a really great read. "Race Against Terror: Chasing an Al Qaeda Killer at the Dawn of the Forever War." It's on bookshelves tomorrow.
Jake Tapper, thank you for being with us as always. Appreciate it.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: The federal government has now been shut down for nearly a week. And with no end in sight here on Capitol Hill, travelers are starting to feel major impacts.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Nearly a week into the government shutdown, and it is gridlock here on Capitol Hill, but the ramifications of this stalemate, that is playing out right now, in Washington, is being felt far beyond the nation's capital.
As we come on the air tonight, the control tower at the Hollywood Burbank Airport is unmanned. The airport is open, but there are no air traffic controllers on duty in that tower that you see there. That means that approaches and departures in Burbank are all being handled from San Diego, one of the busiest in the country.
And air traffic controllers are working during the government shutdown, but they don't get paid during this period. And when they call out sick, it's being felt at hubs all across the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN DUFFY, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: We're tracking sick calls, sick leave. And have we had a slight tick up in sick calls? Yes. And then you'll see delays that come from that, right? Because, again, our priority -- again, I want to see your flight not be delayed. I don't want you -- I don't want you canceled. But our priorities are safety. And so, if we have additional sick calls, we will reduce the flow consistent with a rate that's safe for the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's what we heard from the Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy today, who also warned that some areas have seen a 50 percent reduction in staffing.
If you remember the last time the government shut down, which went on for 35 days, back in 2019, it was air travel delays that eventually brought it to an end. At one point in that period, roughly 10 percent of TSA workers had called in sick, leading to long lines like this at security, and also prompting the President to make this promise, when he announced that the government was reopening, without him getting the one thing that he had demanded, at the time. Money for his border wall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I will sign a bill to open our government for three weeks until February 15th. I will make sure that all employees receive their back pay very quickly, or as soon as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Of course, that was then. This is now. Democrats are pushing for negotiations when it comes to health care costs. As Republican leaders say, no negotiations are going to happen between the two parties until the government has reopened.
When I was inside the Oval Office, earlier today, though, the President sounded like he was open to making a deal, when it came to the extension of the Affordable Care Act subsidies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Would you make a deal with them on the ACA subsidies?
TRUMP: If we -- if we made the right deal, I'd make a deal, sure.
COLLINS: So, you would be willing to--
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: I mean, you have, right now, subsidies. You have subsidies. That's the problem with Obamacare. The subsidies are so much. It's billions and billions of dollars is being wasted. And we can have a much better health care than we have right now, and we're talking to them. I mean, I'm not saying that's going to happen, because this has also been going on, not for 3,000 years, but it's been going on for a long time. But, yes, we're talking to them.
REPORTER: So, you would make a--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's what the President said to us in the Oval Office.
Then the Democratic Leader in the Senate, Chuck Schumer, was asked about the President's comments tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you know what Donald Trump was referring to when he said he'd been speaking with some Democrats?
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): As I understand it, he has not been speaking to any Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And then, to follow up on that, late tonight, the President posted on Truth Social and, in part, said, I am happy to work with the Democrats on their Failed Healthcare Policies, or anything else, but first they must allow our Government to re-open. In fact, they should open our Government tonight.
I want to get straight to CNN's Pete Muntean, to start us off, this hour.
We're going to speak to Senator Bernie Sanders here in a moment.
But Pete Muntean, you're deeply-sourced in the aviation world. Obviously, there is a question of what the ramifications are, that are being felt from this government shutdown. And what you're watching for in terms of how this FAA decision came down?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, these air traffic controllers are real people, Kaitlan, fighting to put food on the table.
[21:05:00]
The union of air traffic controllers just told me in a new statement that this shows really just how fragile the air traffic control system is. You can understand the burnout, when you layer the 11,000 air traffic controllers, still required to work without pay, during this shutdown, on top of the fact that so many have been working mandatory overtime for years, because of a nationwide controller shortage.
So, it really just starts to make sense that only six days into this shutdown, and some controllers are beginning to call out sick, leading the FAA to implement these delays in the name of safety.
Here's the latest. Short controller staffing is causing the FAA to delay flights into Denver International Airport, until about 10:30 local time there.
The FAA has also put into place delays for short staffing at the approach control facility, responsible for flights into and out of Newark Liberty International Airport. You may remember, that facility has already been plagued by low staffing and repeat system outages.
And then, there's this new problem. The control tower at Hollywood Burbank International Airport, in California, is in what's known as ATC Zero. That means the tower is empty tonight, no controllers working.
And here's what controllers were telling pilots, right as the tower there was about to close, around 04:15 Pacific Time, tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PILOT: Just getting a heads up, you said everything is closed for like getting our clearances?
Voice: Clearance is closed, ground is closed, local is closed. The tower is closed due to staffing, please contact SoCal on the 800 (phone) number in the green book for your clearance.
PILOT: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MUNTEAN: Remember, the very same thing ended the 35-day government shutdown, back in 2019, and controllers calling out sick led to ground stops and delays at some of the country's busiest airports. And when that happened, lawmakers reached a deal pretty quickly.
This government shutdown can be kind of ambiguous, when it comes to the impacts. But this is how it affects real people, Kaitlan. These are working Americans, working for the federal government.
COLLINS: Yes, and that ups the pressure, of course, on the lawmakers here on Capitol Hill.
Pete Muntean, keep us updated, if there are any other closures or staffing shortages tonight. We'll continue to keep a close eye on how this is shaking out.
I'm here on Capitol Hill tonight, and my source is the Independent senator, Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who caucuses with the Democrats.
And Senator, I mean, I think maybe a week ago, we were talking, it wasn't clear that it would last this long. Now here we are, and you're hearing about these FAA shortages. You caucus with the Democrats. Has this changed the strategy in any way?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Well, it is clear that this shutdown has got to end as soon as possible. But what's also clear is that Trump now understands that he has to finally deal with the health care crisis, his legislation, the big, beautiful bill has caused.
Trump may be crazy, and Trump may lie all of the time, but he's a good politician. He is seeing the same polls that I am seeing.
And that is, all over this country, the American people are saying, You know what? we can't afford health care now. And you, Mr. Trump, want to double health care premiums for over 20 million people. You want to throw 15 million people off the health care that they have. You're going to destroy a broken health care system. We may not be able to recover from that.
I think Trump understands that, the Republicans understand that, and I wish that the Speaker of the House, Mr. Johnson, had not given his members a vacation, taking them out of Washington. In the middle of this crisis, they're not here. That's pretty pathetic.
COLLINS: Yes, and his argument is they did their job by passing the clean CR, and it's in the Senate's hands.
But on what you heard from the President today, that he would be willing to make the right deal on the Obamacare subsidies. Do you see that as an off-ramp, or do you see that as a bluff?
SANDERS: I don't think it's a bluff. I think -- look, he is a good politician. They are losing this battle. Every poll that I have seen suggests that the American people understand that the Republicans are causing this shutdown. They control the White House. They control the Senate. They control the House.
They need 60 votes in the Senate. And when you need 60 votes, you have to negotiate. Up until now, they have not negotiated at all. Their way or the highway. What Trump is beginning to say is, OK, we're going to have to come to the table and negotiate.
Now, my own view is, I think speaking for most Americans, at a time when our health care system is already broken, you can't make it worse, so we have to restore these tax credits permanently. In my view, you can't throw 15 million people off of health care. Studies suggest, that will lead to 50,000 unnecessary deaths a year.
And I think when we negotiate with Trump, because for good reason, I think Democrats don't trust his word, we have to make sure there are no more rescissions. As you are aware, Trump decides that he's going to cut funding to states that committed the crime of voting against Donald Trump. $18 billion for New York and New Jersey for a major tunnel project. That is absurd.
COLLINS: Yes, and even Republicans have said that they're trying to get the White House to reverse that. Mike Lawler, the Congressman from New York, is trying to reverse that.
SANDERS: Right.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: On the subsidies, though. So, you mentioned the subsidies, and then an agreement on no more rescissions. Is that -- there are other things that are in the Democratic ask. It's a 68-page proposal, I think. Should they cut all of the rest of that--
SANDERS: No, I mean, I think, look, I mean--
COLLINS: --and just say those two things?
SANDERS: I think you got to negotiate. You're not going to get everything you want. But bottom line, again, I don't mean to be overly repetitive, we have a broken health care system. Everybody knows that. And Trump is not wrong, when he says, the system is not working very well. But he is making it far worse.
And honestly, as the former Chair of the Health Committee, I worry very, very much that he could literally collapse the entire system. We don't have enough doctors right now. Who in the world is going to want to become a doctor in the midst of all of this? We pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs, the health care, in general. Our life expectancy is lower than other major countries. So, we have a system deeply in trouble. He is taking it to the verge of collapse. We cannot allow that to happen.
COLLINS: So today, when we were in there, I was a little surprised, because he sounded open to making a deal on the subsidies.
SANDERS: Yes.
COLLINS: But then tonight, he posted on Truth Social, basically, you need to reopen the government first, before you can have that conversation.
SANDERS: Well -- yes.
COLLINS: Are you willing to do that?
SANDERS: No, of course not. Who trusts them, you know? Look, they have had months and months to negotiate, and they have chosen not to. The Speaker of the House has said to his members, You don't even have to come back to Washington, D.C.
Before any Democrat, sane Democrat would agree to anything? Has to be explicit, written down, cross their fingers, and so forth and so on. You can't, Oh, open the government, we'll negotiate with you. Really? Who believes that? I don't think many people--
COLLINS: So, if have you got a written commitment from the White House on negotiating, then?
SANDERS: On -- what the deal is? What are you going to do?
COLLINS: On the subsidies?
SANDERS: Of course. What is it going to be, for two weeks' extension? In my view, it should be permanent, until we can move to, my view, a Medicare for all health care system, and do what every other major country on earth does, and that is guarantee health care to all people.
COLLINS: Robert Costa of CBS News said tonight that Senator Susan Collins was circulating some bipartisan plan, about extending the subsidies and addressing that, once the government is reopened.
SANDERS: Of course -- oh, Once the government is reopened. Look, they have had--
COLLINS: You don't seem to think that's enough? SANDERS: Kaitlan, they have had months to negotiate. And you reopen the government, and we lose our leverage, and they say, Well, you know, we want this, we want that.
No, there has to be an agreement right now. That's what this whole shutdown is about, to protect the American people and our health care system from collapsing.
COLLINS: So, with the FAA shortages that I mentioned tonight, also active-duty military is set to miss their first paycheck--
SANDERS: I know.
COLLINS: --October 15th, not that far from now.
SANDERS: Right.
COLLINS: I think there's a question of whether that's going to become another pressure point for lawmakers, in terms of this.
SANDERS: No, look--
COLLINS: And the question is, how long you're willing to keep the government shut down--
SANDERS: Well--
COLLINS: --to fight for those subsidy extensions?
SANDERS: Look, nobody wants to see our military get unpaid or see the air traffic controllers have to go out on sick time. Nobody wants to see that.
On the other hand, I am not going to go back to Vermont, and tell 45,000 people that they no longer have health care, and to tell many, many thousands of others, who can't afford it, can't afford it, that their premiums are going to double.
Republicans understand that. They are losing this battle. And I think they're going to begin to understand they have to come to the table and negotiate a reasonable agreement.
COLLINS: But I hear that from you, that you think Republicans are losing this, they're going to come to the table.
When I'm at the White House, they say Democrats are losing this, and we're going to have more Democrats come.
Senator Angus King, though, tonight, is saying he might switch his vote back.
SANDERS: Yes, I know.
COLLINS: What do you -- do you think that that's likely? And what do you make of that? SANDERS: I talked to Angus, and I think among others, and yes, I do think so. I think he is -- I don't want to speak for Angus, but I think he's sick and tired of seeing no movement on the part of the Republicans.
Here is the bottom line. They may say what they want to say. But there is a reason why at least 14 members of the Republican Caucus, in the House, have signed on a bipartisan letter, asking for these credits to be restored. There is a reason why at least one United States senator now, Mr. Hawley of Missouri, said the same thing.
Apparently you're telling me Susan Collins wants to move. They understand. You're running for reelection in Maine? Yes, go back to Maine and tell people, I supported a doubling of health care premiums. Good luck to you.
COLLINS: Senator Bernie Sanders, we'll check in with you this time next week, I guess, and see where things are there. Appreciate your time tonight, as always. Thanks for joining us here, on Capitol Hill.
And also, later here tonight on CNN, don't miss this, because Laura Coates is going to sit down with the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries. What does he make of what the President said today from the Oval Office? That is here, live on CNN, 11:00 p.m. Eastern.
Up next for us here on THE SOURCE. The President is officially sending the National Guard into Chicago, even as officials there say, Please don't, including the Governor. But it's not the only city that he wants to send troops. And what else he told us today about maybe invoking the Insurrection Act.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump has formally ordered National Guard troops into Chicago, even as city officials there and the Governor have urged him not to, and a legal battle that is going to now be playing out, even as the troops are on their way. The Presidential memo tonight calls for 300 members of the Illinois Guard to deploy for the next 60 days.
And the President insisted that he plans to move forward with using the military in more American cities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Then we're going to go to another one, and we're going to go city by city. We're going to have safe cities. And it was so great that we started with our nation's capital. One of the worst. I mean, so many people -- every week, somebody was killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Chicago is just one of the cities that obviously had the President's attention today. The other is Portland, Oregon. [21:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So when you look at Chicago, they've had probably 50 murders in the last six or seven months, eight months. Many, many people shot, like 30, 40, 50 people shot. Didn't die, but they've been shot. It's like a war zone.
Portland is on fire. Portland's been on fire for years. And not so much saving it. We have to save something else, because I think that's all insurrection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But here's what's happening with Portland, where, over the weekend, a federal judge has temporarily blocked plans and attempts by the President to deploy troops there. That is a judge who was appointed to the federal bench by none other than President Trump, during his first term in office.
Over the weekend, we saw protesters again clashing with federal agents, outside of the ICE detention facility there in Portland. You can see that here. Local police arrested the protesters who clearly got out of hand.
But when you listen to the President today, in the Oval Office, how he describes the situation is quite different than we have heard from people who live there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I believe that the Portland people are scared. You look at what's happened with Portland over the years, it's a burning hellhole.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's foolish politics. But other than that, nothing's going on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, it's a beautiful Portland morning. It's sunny, it's quiet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at Portland, this morning. Peaceful. People are going, they're taking their kids to the park.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So in today's White House press briefing, I asked the press secretary about that disconnect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But no local officials that you can point to that have said, We need the National Guard. Because I spoke to the Police Chief of Portland, last week. He said that the President's claims just don't match up with what's happening on the ground.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I would encourage you, as a reporter, to go on the ground and to take a look at for yourself.
Because there's been many members of the press, not press in this room, but independent journalists, some of whom we'll be inviting to the White House very soon to share their stories, because they have been in the middle of these riots, and they have witnessed the anarchy that is taking place night after night.
It's on video. You should play it on your show. You have a great opportunity on prime time, on CNN, to show your audience--
COLLINS: (inaudible) local officials--
LEAVITT: Yes, but you're probably talking to partisan Democrat officials who are opposed to everything -- everything this president does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But it wasn't a partisan official that we were asking about whether any local officials have requested the presence of the National Guard.
The local official I was talking about was the Portland Police Chief, Bob Day, that you heard from here on THE SOURCE, last week, who said this National Guard wasn't necessary, and what President Trump was saying didn't match what he was seeing on the ground.
That's where we find CNN's Shimon Prokupecz, tonight, on the ground, in Portland for us.
And Shimon, obviously, the question is, what is the reality on the ground, and what have you been seeing there since you've arrived?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm glad I'm here to be able to answer that question, because it's important for people to get a sense of exactly what's happening here.
There have been clashes, and most of them are between the federal law enforcement officials that are -- would be behind me, where this gate is, at this Federal Building, where ICE is, and others.
And those kinds of clashes would occur, when the federal officials would come out, wanting to clear the sidewalk, wanting to clear this driveway, they would use tear gas, pepper balls. In fact, we're seeing federal officials up on the roof here, Kaitlan, I want to show you, which is drawing the attention of many of the protesters at this point.
So, that's what's going on out here. We're not seeing anarchy. You're not seeing any kind of clashes at this hour. People are all standing outside. People are playing music. We're seeing a lot of signs out here, people voicing they're -- you know, that they are against what ICE is doing, that they are against the administration. But we are also seeing Trump supporters out here. And there's that back and forth that you would get between those two groups.
But certainly, nothing is burning here at this moment. There is no anarchy at the moment. We'll see as the night goes on.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously, when it comes to what we see as the night goes on, what we've been watching. You know, local officials there have been saying, Don't let this tempt you into doing something, or to overreacting, or to kind of proving the administration right.
I wonder, in terms of the National Guard. Have you heard anything from law enforcement there, local law enforcement? Did they feel that they need reinforcements?
PROKUPECZ: No. No one here, from the -- from the local officials, right? From the Mayor, the Governor, obviously, none of those people feel that they need the National Guard at this point. It's not even entirely clear, Kaitlan, what they would do if they came here.
Because where I'm standing, I don't -- it's not even a block. It's this area directly behind me. This driveway is where everything has been happening.
[21:25:00]
And you have federal law enforcement here, Border Patrol, Department of Homeland Security, the Federal Protective Services. They're in tactical gear, ready to respond as they've been. So, they have the situation, from everything that I could see, from everything that I've seen, they have had this situation under control. So, what would the National Guard exactly do here?
I mean, if you put National Guard here, they would just take up this entire street, and it would be on -- National Guard troops versus, I don't know, maybe the 50 or 60 people that are standing out here. So, it's not entirely clear what they would do if they came here.
COLLINS: Shimon Prokupecz, that is why we have you there on the ground, in Portland. Thank you so much for bringing us that report of what it's actually like on the ground.
And I should notice, this is playing out in the public view from the White House and from officials.
We're also seeing it play out in the courtroom, as the White House is now blaming what they call a left-wing judicial insurrection for their legal loss in Portland. Trump actually appointed the judge, though, who ruled against his attempt to send the National Guard into Oregon, when he was in office, the last time.
He said yesterday that the judge should, quote, Be ashamed of himself. It's a woman that he put on the federal bench. Her name is District Judge Karin Immergut.
And while I was at the White House today, I called my colleague, CNN Politics Reporter, Michael Williams, to find out more about this judge.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COLLINS: One thing that stood out to me from your reporting is you talked about how her time as a prosecutor, actually earned her a nickname among cops in Portland.
ON THE PHONE: MICHAEL WILLIAMS, REPORTER, CNN POLITICS: Yes, her nickname among Portland police detectives, was the stalker. And from what I've seen from previous interviews with her, she was sort of hesitant to take on that moniker. But once she realized why she was being called the stalker, it was apparently because she was very persistent, left no stone unturned. She sort of rolled with it.
COLLINS: Yes, and also, I think maybe the most fascinating part of her history, because she's got all these credentials of Republicans appointing her to certain positions. But she actually interviewed, and as you put it, grilled Monica Lewinsky, during the Ken Starr investigation of President Bill Clinton.
ON THE PHONE: M. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. She was one of only two lawyers who questioned Lewinsky from Ken Starr's office, and she had to, of course, question Lewinsky about these very, very personal details about her relationship with President Clinton.
And one thing that he could tell is that she was very adept at sort of intuiting the political realities that served as the backdrop of her apolitical role. She was worried that her time with the special counsel would sort of taint her as a participant in a vast conspiracy against then-President Clinton. And those political realities sort of lingered. Her work for Starr was viewed as a liability when she was up for nomination at the U.S. Attorney for Oregon during George Bush's administration.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: That was what we heard from Michael Williams, reporting on the judge's background here.
Also joining me tonight, another legal source, the former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.
And Elliot, when you read what the judge was basically saying here was, that the President's move was untethered to reality of what was happening on the ground in Oregon, that it didn't meet the standards of sending in the National Guard.
When I asked the press secretary about that today, she described the judge as being untethered to reality with her ruling.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Right. The most important point here, Kaitlan, is that if there is a scenario that requires the introduction of the National Guard, such that local law enforcement cannot handle it? That's fine.
What the judge had found, though, is that there was no circumstance, realistically, in which the folks who were there on the ground, in Portland, could not handle the matter. I think we just need to get our heads around the concept that the mere fact that the President wants law enforcement somewhere doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be there.
There are cops in Portland who are capable, and at least, according to every indication, were capable, of assessing the situation there and handling it. And that's what the judge had ruled, that state and local law enforcement were well-equipped to handle the scenario on the ground in Portland.
COLLINS: Yes. And can you also speak to what the President said today? He basically said he was open to potentially invoking the Insurrection Act, if certain standards were met. He didn't really go into detail when we tried to question him in the Oval Office. He was telling Catherine Lucey that, about doing so.
I mean, what would that say to you, if that is something that the White House attempted next?
E. WILLIAMS: What standards is he talking about? If there -- certainly, and I'd be the first to say, if there is an insurrection or rebellion taking place, on the streets of Portland, of course, the Insurrection Act could be triggered. That's what federal law is there for, and that's what's required. But the mere fact that the President wants troops there is simply not sufficient under federal law to trigger that here.
[21:30:00]
And look at the President's own social media statements, leading up to all this, particularly with respect to Chicago. We're not talking about insurrections and rebellions. We're talking about waging war on citizens. And just, the people voted for law enforcement, so I'm going to give them law enforcement.
There has to be some sort of triggering event in order to activate troops in the manner that the President wants to. He can do it, but this isn't the basis for doing it. And I just think the mere fact that he wants to, simply does not power you (ph) under the law.
COLLINS: Elliot Williams, it's always great to have you. Thank you so much.
E. WILLIAMS: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And up next here for us. There was another remarkable moment in the Oval Office today, following what we heard from the Supreme Court. I asked the President, is he open to pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell? This response, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The Supreme Court is back in session.
TRUMP: Yes.
COLLINS: They rejected today an appeal, by Ghislaine Maxwell, to overturn her conviction. That means her only chance at getting out of prison is a pardon from you. Is that something you are open to doing?
TRUMP: Who are we talking about?
COLLINS: Ghislaine Maxwell.
TRUMP: You know, I haven't heard the name in so long. I can say this, that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look.
Did they reject that?
COLLINS: She wanted to appeal her conviction.
TRUMP: And what happened?
COLLINS: And they said that they were not going to hear her appeal.
TRUMP: I say, Well, I'll take a look at it. I'll speak to the -- I will speak to the DOJ.
COLLINS: But you're considering that?
TRUMP: I wouldn't consider it or not consider. I don't know anything about it, so. But I'll speak--
REPORTER: Why would she be a candidate--
TRUMP: I will speak to the D.A. -- DOJ.
REPORTER: Why would she be a candidate--
COLLINS: And--
REPORTER: --for clemency, sir?
TRUMP: I don't know. I mean, I'd have to speak to the DOJ. I'll look at it. I'll -- I have -- a lot of people have asked me for pardons. I call him, Buff Daddy has asked me for a pardon.
COLLINS: But she was convicted of child sex trafficking.
TRUMP: Yes, I mean, I'm going to have to take a look at it. I'd have to ask DOJ. I didn't know they rejected it. I didn't know she was even asking for it, frankly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was my exchange with President Trump, in the Oval Office today, as he left the door open there, to potentially pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell. He didn't rule it out. She's currently serving a 20-year sentence, of course, for carrying out a years-long scheme with Jeffrey Epstein to sexually exploit and abuse underage girls.
My White House insider tonight is here. NOTUS Politics Reporter, Jasmine Wright.
And obviously, Jasmine, this is something that has kind of followed the White House for months. Certainly with -- here on Capitol Hill, as they've tried to force the release of the Epstein files--
JASMINE WRIGHT, POLITICS REPORTER, NOTUS: Yes.
COLLINS: --what's known as that from the DOJ. What did you make of the President's answer there?
WRIGHT: Yes, well, it certainly doesn't help try to push the White House past this Epstein thing.
I think when I talk to White House officials and sources around the President, they believe that they've gotten past really the height of kind of the Epstein files crisis, obviously over the summer, and that any fears that it could kind of bring the President down have largely been abated.
But of course, answering questions like this and not necessarily ruling out a pardon, which he could very well do, just simply rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell, kind of continues the conversation.
Not just that, but obviously there are a lot of -- there's a lot of talk, right now, on Capitol Hill, where we're at right now, about whether or not Republicans aren't bringing back Congress, in part because of a vote that could happen on the Epstein files.
And so, I don't think that the White House is necessarily nervous about this becoming a really flared-up thing again. But it doesn't help, when the President doesn't necessarily shoot these ideas fully down.
COLLINS: Yes, and he seemed to not realize who Ghislaine Maxwell was at the beginning.
And then, of course, Laura Loomer tonight, his close ally of his, who's gotten a lot of people fired that she thought shouldn't work -- be in the government.
WRIGHT: Sure.
COLLINS: She's saying tonight that she's been assured he's not going to pardon her.
I mean, obviously it's still an open question.
The other thing that's going on is James Comey.
WRIGHT: Yes. COLLINS: He got indicted. He is said to be arraigned here on Wednesday, not here in the Eastern District of Virginia.
And I asked the President about his comments on that today, and this is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: James Comey is being arraigned on Wednesday.
TRUMP: Yes.
COLLINS: Obviously, after his indictment.
Are you worried that your own statements, calling for his prosecution, could help him actually, in his defense of this case?
TRUMP: No. I think he's a crooked guy. He's a dirty cop. Comey, I think he's a dirty cop. He's recognized by many people to be a dirty cop and dishonest guy. So, all I have to do is -- I mean, I have nothing to do with the case. I just say, Good luck.
COLLINS: But you called on Pam Bondi to prosecute him, in a post on Truth Social.
TRUMP: No, no, I don't call anybody. You know what? I'm allowed to do that, if I wanted to do that. But Comey is a crooked guy. He has been for years, and he got caught.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That answer, of course, coming as legal experts have said they actually do think his comments could be used to help Comey in his defense.
WRIGHT: Yes, everything that President Trump has said, has Truth Social-ed, his folks across the government, both inside and outside the government, before the administration and now, are all up for grabs in terms of what Comey's team could use as part of his defense. We've talked to legal experts, at NOTUS, who have basically said the same thing, that that could be used against him.
But fundamentally, the President believes in this idea of reciprocity, both him and his allies outside of the White House. And this idea that he was kind of trotted out. He didn't necessarily do a perp walk, but other folks who got caught up in some of the legal trouble that he was also accused to be involved in, got perp walked and all of those things. And so, they want to see James Comey basically be subject to kind of the same treatment that they believe that they got.
[21:40:00]
And so, I think that you're going to see the White House continue to go kind of full steam ahead on this, even though Donald Trump, for what he says publicly, tries to assert some sort of distance. But then on Truth Social, obviously, that kind of goes out the window. COLLINS: Yes, certainly. We can read that ourselves.
Jasmine Wright, excellent reporting. Thank you for that.
Up next here for us on Capitol Hill. There's a critical meeting underway that could lead to a huge peace deal between Israel and Hamas. We're all watching it closely. What President Trump said today about where those negotiations stand.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, as negotiators for Israel and Hamas meet in Egypt, to discuss President Trump's ceasefire plan, I asked the President directly about where those talks stand earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Mr. President, there's negotiations happening with your team in Egypt, right now, over your proposed peace plan.
TRUMP: Yes.
COLLINS: It was reported by Axios, over the weekend, that you had a call with Prime Minister Netanyahu, where you told him to stop being so negative and to take the win when it came to Hamas' response to that. Is that true?
TRUMP: No, it's not true.
COLLINS: And what else did you say to them?
TRUMP: He's been very positive. He's been very positive on the deal. Everybody is. I think every nation is. We have just about every nation working on this deal and trying to get it done, something that you could say 3,000 years, if you look at it in certain ways, or you could say centuries. But this is a deal that incredibly, everyone just came together. They all came together. No, Israel's been great. They've all been good, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And in the negotiations, do you have any red lines in terms of Hamas disarming and whatnot? Or are there -- are there any--
TRUMP: You know, I have red lines.
COLLINS: --places you're willing to negotiate.
TRUMP: If certain things aren't met, we're not going to do it. But I think we're doing very well, and I think Hamas has been agreeing to things that are very important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Yesterday, the President had urged everyone here to, MOVE FAST, and said he expects talks to go on for a couple of days. Families of Israeli hostages, though, have been keeping the pressure up on the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, gathering outside his home.
Right now in Israel, which is several hours ahead of the U.S., of course, it is already October 7th, marking two years since the Hamas attack that started this war, when Hamas-led militants killed 1,200 Israelis and took more than 250 people hostage. 48 remain in Gaza tonight, 20 of whom are believed to be alive.
My source is Axios' Barak Ravid, who is also a CNN Political and Global Affairs Analyst.
And Barak, obviously, you were the one who reported, exclusively yesterday, and you're one of the best-sourced reporters in the Middle East, that Netanyahu had kind of been downplaying Hamas being open to Trump's deal. And you said that the President said, I'm quoting from your report, I don't know why you're always so effing negative. This is a win. Take it.
Take us behind the scenes on what else you've heard about their dynamic.
BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, AXIOS: So, according to what my colleague, Marc Caputo, and I, published on Axios, yesterday, President Trump was very concerned that the Hamas' response to his plan would be a total rejection. And when the Hamas' response came, it was a sort of a yes, but.
So, for President Trump, this was a very positive development. And he called Prime Minister Netanyahu to tell him, Look, we have an opening here, it's a good thing. And he was surprised that instead of being happy, Netanyahu was saying, We have no reason to celebrate here, because this response by Hamas is meaningless.
And this response by Netanyahu angered Trump quite a bit. And he responded -- how he responded with a very -- very direct and clear response to Netanyahu saying, Stop being so negative all the time.
And I have to say that today, I even heard from another source, that Trump was very, very upset during this conversation that, by the way, ended with Netanyahu walk -- taking a step back, and basically aligning himself with Trump, understanding that he can't really say no, to the President.
COLLINS: Well, and in terms of what that looks like, going forward, what are you watching right now with these negotiations in Egypt? Because the question is, are we going to see real movement here, on something that people have been desperately hoping for, for two years, potentially this week?
RAVID: I think so. I have to say that from talking to President Trump, over the weekend, he sounds very resolved, sounds adamant to get this deal. And I understand that his directive, to his team, is to just go to Egypt, later this week, and basically not let anybody out of the room until they get a deal.
And I think -- I think a scenario that is really possible is that White House envoy, Steve Witkoff, and Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, will arrive in Egypt, will talk to the mediators, will talk to the Israelis, will see where the gaps are, and then they'll tell the parties, Listen, you are here. The other side is there. This is the middle ground that we see. We ask you now to sign at the bottom of the page.
[21:50:00]
I think this is what's going to -- what's going to happen. And if both sides will not get a deal, they'll force it on the parties.
COLLINS: Yes, obviously something we're going to be watching incredibly closely and following your reporting as well here.
Barak Ravid, thanks for joining us tonight, as always.
RAVID: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next here on Capitol Hill. Bill Nye, the Science Guy, was here all day, as he is trying to save NASA from deep spending cuts from the administration. He's going to join me here, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: The Trump administration's plan to cut funding at NASA is facing backlash.
And also, leading the charge today is one of the nation's most beloved science educators, Bill Nye, the Science Guy. He and more than 300 other science advocates rallied here, on Capitol Hill, to urge Congress, in their words, To save NASA.
The White House plan would slash NASA's science funding by nearly half, a level that scientists warn could have tremendous consequences for space exploration, but also for U.S. economic growth and national security. Much of that agency's work is already halted, with the shutdown keeping some 15,000 NASA employees home and furloughed tonight.
My source tonight is the aforementioned Bill Nye, CEO of The Planetary Society, the largest space advocacy organization in the world.
And it is so great to have you, back here on THE SOURCE.
And also, you're here fighting for this, because you really believe that this would be detrimental, if this -- if this goes through.
BILL NYE, THE SCIENCE GUY, CEO, THE PLANETARY SOCIETY: Oh, man. So, if you cut -- if we cut NASA budget in half, science budget in half? That's pretty much ending it, and it's pretty much done. When all these technicians, scientists, engineers, have to get other jobs, they're just -- you can't restart these things.
Now, just economically, we have spent at least $23 billion, over the last couple decades, exploring Mars alone, let alone all these other -- the outer planets. Everybody knows the expression, black hole. Everybody knows Big Bang. That's from space exploration.
Now, furthermore, the China National Space Administration is going to land people on the moon, probably in the year 2030, four and a half years. And it's going to be, for the older viewers, it's going to be another Sputnik moment, where the United States' eyebrows go up, Oh my goodness, the other side has got some amazing space capability.
And just mission for mission. If you go to the Planetary Society website, I have a chart I've prepared earlier. If this were a cooking show, I'd say prepared earlier. And just, the green is what Chinese National Space Administration is planning. The red and yellow is what the U.S. is planning to cancel.
Now, everybody -- the first Trump administration was all into space. They were going, We're going back to Mars. We're going to do these things. We're going to--
COLLINS: Space Force.
NYE: Yes. Or Space Force, that job had to be done. Understand that the NASA -- NASA is a civilian administration. But its relationship to the military, of course, is stronger and stronger. And for you, students, the Space Shuttle Bay, the cargo bay was configured to handle military satellites.
But all that aside, you don't want to cut NASA funding, and you don't want to cut NASA space in half. It will just end these programs, and this will lose our international competitiveness. And if we stop looking up and out, what does that say about us? It's not good. Whatever it is, it's not good. And it's certainly not consistent with how the United States has gotten this far.
COLLINS: So, what argument that you've made to lawmakers has been the most -- which one breaks through the most? Is it showing them that chart of, Here's what's China is doing and what we're trying to cancel, or we're not going to be doing?
NYE: That's pretty good -- yes, that's pretty good.
But also note, well, name me some states. Alabama, that's a good one, a great one. Georgia--
COLLINS: The best, some would say.
NYE: Some would say. Some might. Florida, Texas, Georgia, these are very conservative states, and they have a lot of space activity, a lot of NASA's -- Louisiana. A lot of NASA activity in each of these states.
And so, one might expect, indeed, that Congress would push back, and Congress is pushing back. And thank you, House of Representatives, Senate, they both have -- both sides have bills that reject all of these proposed cuts.
A question, though, for you, the hard-hitting investigative reporter is, what -- whose idea was this to cut NASA science in half? What -- I mean. It is a sliver, it is barely noticeable piece of the economic -- or the budget pie. It's really a remarkable idea.
COLLINS: Yes, well, that was kind of the argument that some critics made when they cut USAID, which was, If you really want a cut of the federal government spending, like you'd go to the Pentagon, or you'd look at certain things like that.
Bottom line, if a lawmaker is listening tonight, and is like, or someone at the White House is listening, what would your argument be to them?
NYE: My argument would be, U.S. Constitution, now available in paperback, Article 1 Section 8 Clause 8, Congress is to promote the progress of science and useful arts.
[22:00:00]
1787, the Founders put the word, Science, in the U.S. Constitution. It is a remarkable thing. They realized the value for international competitiveness, our health and welfare.
Thanks for having me on.
COLLINS: I love that you carry the Constitution in your pocket.
NYE: All the kids are doing it.
COLLINS: Bill Nye, always surprising us, and always a pleasure to have you. Thank you for joining us tonight.
NYE: Thank you.
COLLINS: And keep us updated on your efforts. We'll continue to follow that.
Thank you all so much for joining us here tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
