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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Suggests Some Federal Workers Don't "Deserve" Back Pay; Trump Compares Dems To "Insurrectionists" Amid Funding Fight; Bondi Deflects & Attacks Democrats In Combative Hearing. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 07, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Tom Friedman, it's always good to talk to you. Thanks very much. A lot to look for, in the coming days out of the region.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: The strain of the shutdown, here in Washington, is now being felt nationwide, as President Trump says that back pay for federal workers isn't guaranteed.
I'm Kaitlan Collins on Capitol Hill. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, the ripple effects of this government shutdown, that is now one week long, are now starting to be felt across the country, this evening.
As we come on the air right now, the air traffic control tower at the Nashville International Airport has actually been closed and left unmanned for hours. Instead, controllers in Memphis are handling Nashville's takeoffs and approaches. Our latest reporting is that they're seeing staffing shortages at airports in Houston, Atlanta, Boston, Fort Worth and Chicago tonight.
Air traffic controllers are working long, stressful days during the government shutdown without getting paid for that work. Hence, why more and more have been calling in sick recently. It's similar to what we saw the last time the government was shut down in 2019, which actually ultimately led to the government reopening at that time.
As the White House has been trying to up the pressure on Democrats, the President faced questions, earlier today, inside the Oval Office, over whether or not federal workers who aren't getting paid right now will get back pay.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Is it the White House's position that furloughed workers should be paid for their back pay?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I would say it depends on who we're talking about. I can tell you this, the Democrats have put a lot of people in great risk and jeopardy. But it really depends on who you're talking about. But for the most part, we're going to take care of our people. There are some people that really don't deserve to be taken care of, and we'll take care of them in a different way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As you heard from the President there, he didn't elaborate on who would or would not potentially receive that back pay. And those comments come, after a draft memo from the White House suggested that furloughed workers don't need to be paid. The Congressional Budget Office estimates there could be up to 750,000 federal employees who are furloughed during this government shutdown.
And all that is despite what the President said, back in 2019, a clip that we showed you here last night from President Trump, that maybe is even more relevant tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will sign a bill to open our government for three weeks until February 15th. I will make sure that all employees receive their back pay very quickly, or as soon as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We heard from one prominent Republican senator today, saying that he believes the President's threat would actually be a big mistake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I believe it's a strategic mistake to now let those folks know, or let them think that they could potentially not get back pay. If I were them, I'd start looking for another job. And there's a lot of good, hard-working people out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: We've also heard the White House and President Trump saying that there could be mass firings of federal officials to come, something that we have not seen in past government shutdowns.
Tonight, we're hearing from sources, though, that are telling CNN, my colleagues, Alayna Treene and Annie Grayer, that the White House has actually been hearing from nervous Republican lawmakers, causing them to shift that timeline away from a mass rollout of layoffs, anytime soon, amid concerns, that could be perilous politically.
My source tonight is the Republican congressman, Jim Jordan of Ohio, who is the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, and also sits on the House Oversight Committee.
So, thank you for being here tonight.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): Good to be with you. You bet.
COLLINS: In addition to your titles, you also have 56,000, I think, federal workers in your home state of Ohio. 6,000 in your district alone. Do you think that--
JORDAN: Lot of people at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, yes, I think--
COLLINS: Yes. Do you think that they should all be getting back pay?
JORDAN: Well, I think people who are working, certainly. I mean the way, you know, people who are furloughed, who aren't essential, I think that's a different question.
But the way to solve this is for Chuck Schumer to open the government, for Chuck Schumer to vote for what he did, six months ago, and then you don't have -- you don't have to deal with this question.
But where I come from, if the truck driver is not driving a truck, he doesn't get paid. If the guy who hangs drywall is not hanging drywall, he doesn't get paid. So, I think that's a different question than certainly, the people who are working every day, during this shutdown caused by Chuck Schumer.
But the question is moot, if Chuck Schumer would simply do what he did, six months ago, do the commonsense thing, vote for the level of spending that he and all the other Democrats agreed to, just a few months ago.
COLLINS: So your stance is, if you're going to work, you should get paid.
JORDAN: Certainly.
COLLINS: If you're at home, you should not get paid.
[21:05:00]
JORDAN: Well, I think that -- no, what I'm saying is, that's how most Americans see it, I believe. But it's a moot question, if the -- if the Democrats, will just do the right thing, if Chuck Schumer will just say, We're going to open the government, I voted for it, six months ago.
I mean, the real debate here is -- the real--
COLLINS: But actually, is it a moot point, because the -- they've already gone one week without getting paid. And if you're someone who's furloughed, which is, you're told not to come to work. You're not choosing not to go to work. And some of these -- you know, one in six Americans lives paycheck to paycheck--
JORDAN: And -- and--
COLLINS: --and that probably includes federal workers. JORDAN: And Kaitlan, the easiest way for this to all get -- the easiest remedy is the one that Chuck Schumer voted for, six months ago. Open up the government. Open up the government.
The real debate here is between Chuck Schumer and himself. Six months ago, he picked commonsense. Today, he's picking the radical left. Six months ago, he voted for the level of spending. He won't do it today, because frankly, as we all know, he's nervous about the left, particularly AOC in a primary in a couple years.
COLLINS: I want to talk about Chuck Schumer.
JORDAN: So, that is the real debate.
COLLINS: But this is actually a debate for these federal workers, who have nothing to do with what's happening between Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill. They're caught in the middle of this, and they -- they didn't bring on this shutdown. So why should they have to suffer and not get their back pay?
JORDAN: They don't have to suffer, if Chuck Schumer opens the government, if Democrats will open the government, if they will vote for the exact same--
COLLINS: But if it opens tomorrow, they went a week without pay, right?
JORDAN: And President's -- I think they get paid. But I think the President's saying, If this goes on, maybe, maybe there's this question, he's going to debate it, going to look at it.
The other thing you got to keep in mind is, what are they supposed to do? $37 trillion debt, and the Democrats refuse to open the government? What are they supposed to do? So, I think that's the other thing you got to look at. And I think, frankly, that's how most, again, Americans who have commonsense, view the whole situation.
COLLINS: Yes, but the debt has been there. It's been a problem in past government shutdowns. And the President signed that bill in 2019 to restore back pay, for all these federal workers then.
JORDAN: And he -- and he may in fact--
COLLINS: And you voted yes on that, actually.
JORDAN: And he may -- and he may, in fact, do the same thing now. All I'm saying is, the easiest way to make sure this is not a concern for any people, people who are working, or people who are furloughed, is for the Democrats to open the government.
COLLINS: But actually, when the bill was signed, back in 2019, during that last shutdown, it wasn't just for that shutdown, it was for future shutdowns, so federal workers wouldn't get caught in this dispute between Republicans and Democrats.
JORDAN: OK. OK, fine. That's fine. That's what we signed back then. I think the same thing could happen this time. We'll see.
But we know it's not a problem, if the Democrats will do the right thing, the commonsense thing, instead of saying, Oh, I'm going to do what the hard-left is demanding our party do, fight President Trump at every single turn.
This is so darn simple. You voted for it, six months ago. What's the difference now? I mean, I like -- I like what--
COLLINS: OK. So, you -- OK.
JORDAN: I like what the Vice President said. They're saying, We're going to shut down the government because we're concerned about a policy difference that doesn't take effect for three months. Well, then open up the government. We don't have to worry about this question.
COLLINS: So, if your position is what they voted for, six months ago, they should vote again for now, right?
JORDAN: Well, that, yes, I think it's pretty clear, on the government--
COLLINS: OK. So you--
JORDAN: --on the government -- on opening the government, certainly.
COLLINS: OK. So, you voted in 2019, the federal workers who are furloughed should get their back pay. So, why is your position different now?
JORDAN: It's not different now. It depends on what the President decides to do, and then what we pick up as Congress. All I'm saying is most--
COLLINS: But it's a federal law, actually.
JORDAN: All I'm saying -- OK. And all I'm saying is--
COLLINS: So, is it up to the President?
JORDAN: All I'm saying is most Americans say, If you're working, you should get paid. If you're not, that's a different question. Now, in the past, we've all--
COLLINS: But that's not the law you signed.
JORDAN: That--
COLLINS: You didn't say -- when you voted yes on this, that you voted for in 2019, you didn't say the caveat, If they're working, they get paid. It said, All furloughed workers get paid.
JORDAN: I'm just -- I'm just commenting on what the President said. And I think the easiest way to remedy this is what I've said now, several times. Chuck Schumer, open up the government. COLLINS: Yes, but I'm talking about what you voted for. So is your -- if your position is still then, then it's that furloughed workers who aren't going to the office shouldn't get paid.
JORDAN: And we may in fact vote for that again, because I think it would take a change in the law to undo what we did back in 2019.
COLLINS: OK. So, on these subsidies that you're talking about. That's what Democrats are basically saying, is their chief demand here. They expire soon. You do have people in your district who are in the Obamacare marketplace. I think it's about 36,000 of them, unless you have a different number. Do you believe that the subsidies should be extended, so premiums don't go up?
JORDAN: I think -- I think what we got to focus on is Chuck Schumer opening the government up, and then we can deal with that question.
What I do know about Obamacare is everything they told us about Obamacare, a decade ago, when they passed this thing, turned out to be false. They told us that, If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. They told us, If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. They told us, premiums will go down. I think the President -- President Obama, actually said premiums will go down on average $1,500. They were 0 for four. Everything they told us turned out to be false.
And then what they did, back at the start of COVID, they said, We're going to expand Obamacare. Everything we told you about it was false, but we're going to expand it with this enhanced tax credit, this subsidy.
And then again, they renewed it and said, We're not only going to expand it, we're going to extend it. And now, they want to extend it again? And Hakeem Jeffries said one year is not enough, we got to do it for two years, or we're -- we're not even going to discuss anything.
So, I think that's the history. And I think, again, most -- most people in our district--
COLLINS: Yes, but where do you stand personally on it?
JORDAN: --most people in the 4th District of Ohio, most Americans around the country, think, That makes no sense.
Let's figure out how we can do health care better for all Americans. Let's not keep subsidizing, expanding and extending Obamacare, when again, when you look at what they told us, it all turned out to be false.
COLLINS: So you're against extending the subsidies?
[21:10:00]
JORDAN: Yes, I think it's -- I think that's a problem. I think we should look for other ways to improve health care for Americans, for families, and do it at a cheaper cost.
COLLINS: What could you do in the next three months that would -- that would change that, and make sure--
JORDAN: Let's have that debate. But right now, we can't. Let--
COLLINS: I mean, Senator Bernie Sanders, I think, would like to have that debate with you.
JORDAN: Let's -- let's have that debate.
COLLINS: He agrees that the health care system is broken.
JORDAN: We're for Health Savings Accounts. We're for empowering people. We're for catastrophic health plans, making it easier access to -- we're for all those things that we think empower people and patients, not insurance companies, not hospitals, not -- we're for doing that, empowering people. That--
COLLINS: Yes, but Republicans who have wanted to get rid of Obamacare for so long, you're one of them. You said the subsidies before you believed were illegal. They have never introduced a comprehensive plan to replace Obamacare. So, I think most Americans who are saying, open enrollment starts November 1st, don't have faith that you're going to change that in the next six weeks.
JORDAN: Oh, so -- so the remedy -- so, you think the remedy, is just keep extending a program that has driven up premiums--
COLLINS: No, I'm asking what the -- what the change should be.
JORDAN: --a program that didn't meet any of the things, any of the statements that the proponents of it made didn't come true, and we just need to keep expanding and extending and extending and expanding?
COLLINS: That's not what I said.
JORDAN: That is--
COLLINS: I asked what the replacement is.
JORDAN: Well, I'm for -- I'm for all those.
COLLINS: Because in the last eight years, we haven't seen one.
JORDAN: I'm for Health Savings Accounts. I'm for easier access to catastrophic plans. I'm for all kinds of things that will help families actually have more control, more decision-making in the process.
And by the way, the subsidy? 40 percent of people don't even use it. And the pay -- the individual Americans don't know, it goes directly to the insurance company, and many of those people have never -- never had a claim. That is -- that is a concern with how this thing works. So the Democrats' plan is, Let's extend it another two years.
Well, that makes no sense. Let's have a debate on how we can do health care better.
COLLINS: So that's true, that it goes to the insurance companies, but that helps keep the premiums low, because it pays off the balance, basically.
And the concern, disagree or agree with the subsidies themselves, is that if premiums jump, people can't afford it, they don't have health care, and then the people -- the burden on people who are sick and need their coverage is higher.
JORDAN: I'd tell you what the Democrats want. The Democrats want health care for people who are non-citizens. That's driving up health care costs too.
COLLINS: But can we talk about--
JORDAN: Well, you know we got to talk about the part--
COLLINS: But let's talk about the -- let's -- don't -- don't change the subject from the subsidies though.
JORDAN: No, the subject that you're talking about health care.
COLLINS: But on the subsidies themselves--
JORDAN: And all I know is Maxine Waters said, We want health care for illegal immigrants.
COLLINS: But I'm talking about the subsidies themselves, Congressman.
JORDAN: Every single -- every single Democrat presidential candidate, in the -- back in 2020, they asked them, How many of you will support health care for people who are non-citizen, for illegal immigrants. Everyone on stage raised their -- Kamala Harris raised her hand. Joe Biden raised his hand. Pete Buttigieg.
COLLINS: Then who is--
JORDAN: They all raised their hand. That's what they're for. That's what they want here in this bill.
COLLINS: But that's a -- we went through all this with House Speaker, Mike Johnson, last week, trust me. But my point was on the subsidies themselves.
JORDAN: And you went through, because that's where the -- that's their position. And we're opposed to that position.
COLLINS: But my point on the subsidies--
JORDAN: We don't think that is -- we don't think that's commonsense. We don't think that's good for the country. We don't think that's the right approach. What we do think is we can have a debate on what's better for health care, but we don't think extending and expanding Obamacare--
COLLINS: OK. But Congressman--
JORDAN: --and giving it to illegal migrants is going to help the--
COLLINS: --to stay on the subsidies.
JORDAN: How's that going to help the families I represent?
COLLINS: To stay on -- to stay on the subsidies.
JORDAN: Even people who are in Obamacare, how's that going to help them?
COLLINS: To stay on the subsidies, which I'm talking about.
JORDAN: No, no, how's that going to help them?
COLLINS: Your -- your fellow--
JORDAN: How is that going to help them?
COLLINS: Your fellow Congresswoman, Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene, has a very different opinion than you on this.
JORDAN: I read it.
COLLINS: And she said that she's carving her own lane. She's disgusted that health insurance premiums will double if the tax credits expire this year. And she says, Not a single Republican leader in leadership has talked to us about this or given us a plan to help Americans with their health insurance premiums doubling.
Is that true, that no one in Republican leadership is having conversations on what to do about this?
JORDAN: We are focused on getting the government back open, right now, and Chuck Schumer is the impediment to doing that. Chuck Schumer is the one who's making this -- this -- this -- keep people -- people from working, the potential that some of these furloughed people can't get back to work. He's the one doing that. He's the one who's raising this issue. Open up the government, and we'll be happy to debate and discuss health care.
COLLINS: But what does that--
JORDAN: And what--
COLLINS: November 1st is open enrollment. So what does that look like?
JORDAN: This policy doesn't kick -- this change in policy doesn't expire until the end of the calendar year.
COLLINS: December 31st.
JORDAN: Until the end of the calendar year. We got time to work with it. Not that's -- we're happy to do that. We're happy to do that. But to me, the answer is not extending and expanding Obamacare, which, again, everything we were told about Obamacare turned out not to be true.
COLLINS: So--
JORDAN: And the Democrats' position is to, Oh, we're going to extend it and expand it? I don't think that makes sense.
COLLINS: If the government reopens tomorrow, and these subsidies expire, and they don't get extended? Because you're not going to vote to extend them, as you've made your policy clear, right here--
JORDAN: But for clearance it -- it depends--
COLLINS: --what do Americans do when their premiums go up?
JORDAN: Depends -- depends on what are the changes happening to health care that actually empower families, not empower government, not empower insurance companies.
Are we going to -- are we going to expand the ability to Health Savings Accounts, people to have better control of their health care? More catastrophic plans where they're much cheaper plans? Are we going to do those kind of things that I think are good for families or not?
COLLINS: But Marjorie Taylor Greene says that Republican leadership are not -- is not having a conversation about what to do about that, if these subsidies don't get extended.
JORDAN: We have conversation about health care all the time in this town. It's like one of those issues we talk about a lot, and the Democrats always want more government, which leads to higher costs, and I think reduced not as -- not the same quality of care. That -- so we're happy to talk about what happens in the future. But let's take one step at a time. Let's open up the government.
COLLINS: Yes, but I think that they have the question of what happens when these expire, and they haven't seen Republicans -- I mean, this is a Republican saying, Republicans don't have a plan for this.
[21:15:00]
JORDAN: I think -- actually, you think about this. If this were the other way around, if Republicans said, if Mike Johnson said, You know, I voted for a continuing -- Democrats are in control. I voted for a continuing resolution, six months ago, but I'm not going to vote for it today, because I want -- pick the policy. We want tax cuts. We want -- we want school choice. We want some other policy -- some policies in the big -- a single policy that we were fighting for that one thing?
You guys would lose your mind. You would be like, Oh my goodness, you voted for it, six months ago, but you won't vote for it now, because you want this policy.
And by the way, no one--
COLLINS: Actually, we've asked -- that's not true.
JORDAN: --no one -- no one--
COLLINS: That's not fair or true. We've asked Democrats who have been on this show--
JORDAN: That is very fair. You guys would have been on Republicans, I cannot believe--
COLLINS: We've asked Democrats, who have been on this show, what changed.
JORDAN: --that they won't vote for the same thing--
COLLINS: And they said, The one big beautiful bill passed, and it changed the Medicaid eligibility requirements--
JORDAN: No, what changed is the one big, beautiful bill made clear--
COLLINS: --and it changed the Obamacare subsides eligibility.
JORDAN: The one big, beautiful bill made clear, illegal immigrants can't get health care. And they don't like that. And they're trying to take--
COLLINS: Illegal immigrants can't get health care, as you know. It's against federal law.
JORDAN: No, they all -- they all raised their hand and said they were for it. And the bill that they thought -- go to the Speaker's--
COLLINS: That -- what happened on the debate stage is not what's in the one big, beautiful bill.
JORDAN: Kaitlan, go to the Speaker's website. Go to the -- go to Mike Johnson -- Speaker Johnson's website. Page 57, I think it's Section 2041--
COLLINS: It's talking about people who have the legal status--
JORDAN: --21 -- it says--
COLLINS: Trust us. We -- I'll send you the interview.
JORDAN: But it's right there -- right there for -- for God and everybody to see.
COLLINS: It's talking about people with legal status. DACA--
JORDAN: Right there.
COLLINS: --DREAMers, refugees, asylees, those people who are eligible for--
JORDAN: And illegal migrants, because remember, every single Democrat candidate for president--
COLLINS: --those people who are eligible.
JORDAN: --said they were for it.
COLLINS: Yes.
JORDAN: That's what they want.
COLLINS: But people who are here illegally, as you know, don't have access to Medicare, Medicaid or the Obamacare subsidies. It's federal law. It's been that way for decades.
One question is about the makeup of House Republicans. You're here on Capitol Hill tonight. A lot of your colleagues are not, because you're not in session. And Speaker Johnson has said he's not bringing you all back, until there's an agreement to reopen the government.
Is it clear to you why Speaker Johnson has not sworn in the new member, Adelita Grijalva yet?
JORDAN: Because we're not in session, and it's typically done when we're all there. It's a special thing. The individual gives a -- the new member gives a speech in front of Congress, sworn in by the Speaker of the House, introduced by colleagues from their delegation. That's how -- I've been -- I've been here, what, 19 years. It's always been done that way. So, that's nothing out of the -- out of the ordinary.
The reason we're not here is because we've done our work. We've passed the bill that funds the government, again, at the levels Chuck Schumer agreed to, and now he won't support it.
Because he's -- again, this debate is Chuck Schumer can pick commonsense, or he can pick the left and AOC. And right now, he's picking the left and AOC, after he picked commonsense, six months ago. Plain and simple. And I think the American people understand that.
COLLINS: So you're saying because it's a pro forma session, that's why?
JORDAN: Yes, because there's -- like, there's two people on the floor, or, you know, whatever, there's -- but normally, it's done in front of the full House, so that new member in a special election gets a, I think, in some ways, a kind of a neat experience, where they get to talk to the House, their first day, getting sworn in. And that's happened every single time that I can recall, with any new member elected in a special, in the middle of a congressional session.
COLLINS: But a couple months ago, he swore in Jimmy Patronis and Randy Fine in a pro forma session.
JORDAN: I didn't -- I actually didn't even know that, when they were sworn in. But I always remember when it happens, the delegation is up front, and that person is sworn in. COLLINS: Do you think it has anything to do with the discharge petition, and that she could be the 218th signature, for the Jeffrey Epstein files?
JORDAN: No, I think it's -- I think it's -- to make the clear point, we have voted to fund the government at levels, all the Democrats supported, and they now won't support it, because they're bringing up an issue that, frankly, was not even part of the campaign last year.
Wasn't even -- I don't remember anyone say, Oh my goodness, we got to deal with the enhanced premium tax credit in Obamacare, and if we don't -- it wasn't even part of the campaign, last year.
COLLINS: Well, do you think that was because it was over a year before it expired?
JORDAN: No, I think--
COLLINS: I heard you already say that earlier.
JORDAN: No, I -- I mean, I know a lot of the issues that were central to the campaign. Security of the border was central. Making sure taxes didn't go up. The record tax increase that would have happened if we didn't extend the tax cuts. I think dealing with the school choice. I think all those were front and center in the campaign.
But I don't remember anyone bringing up, and certainly not in the 4th District of Ohio, I don't remember that coming up whatsoever. But now, all of a sudden, even though they voted for a level to fund the government, they won't vote for, for it again, because this issue just came out of the blue. That's not even up, that's not even expired for three months. We got plenty of time to talk about that, and do better things in health care. So, again, I just fail to see it.
But it's driven by the left, and what Chuck Schumer had to deal with, back in March. The left is pushing him to take this, I think, ridiculous position.
COLLINS: Chairman Jim Jordan, thank you for your time tonight.
JORDAN: You bet.
COLLINS: Thanks for joining us here on THE SOURCE.
JORDAN: You bet. Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And up next here for us. As the blame game is continuing over this shutdown, we've seen Americans caught in the middle. Paychecks, travel, health care, potentially on the line. Who is winning this battle? We're going to speak to our political sources on what this looks like, and how it's playing out, right after this.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: Tonight, we're nearly a week into the government shutdown. And still, what we've heard from our sources and from lawmakers on the record, there is no deal or end in sight, as of this moment.
Both parties are still at odds, over the expiring Obamacare subsidies, and what Republicans are saying Democrats should be voting for, as you just heard from Congressman Jim Jordan there.
And President Trump today, said this about Democrats, from the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: These Democrats are like insurrectionists, OK? They're so bad for our country.
They're the ones that started it. They're the ones that have it. And it's almost like a kamikaze attack by them.
The Democrats have no leader.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I'm joined now by my political sources.
Former Trump campaign adviser, David Urban.
And former senior adviser to Hillary Clinton's campaign, Karen Finney is here.
And Karen, let me just start with you based on, not just what we heard from the President, but also from Chairman Jim Jordan here, in terms of pushing this back on Democrats, and saying this was something that they voted for, a couple of months ago, back in the spring, and it's something they're not willing to vote for now.
How do you think it's playing out?
[21:25:00]
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SR. ADVISER, 2016 CLINTON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DNC: Well, I think the polls are showing that actually, Democrats are winning on this issue. Americans are very frustrated, and most of the polling I've seen suggests that they are blaming Republicans more than they are Democrats.
More importantly, though, because the President has failed, and the Republicans have failed, to lower costs in other areas. As Americans are receiving, I just got mine last week, notices about their upcoming increases in health care, they're mindful of what's about to happen in their own lives.
And so, what they're seeing play out is actually part of what is happening in their own lives, in terms of costs going up. So, I think that's part of why people are believing that this is a fight about health care and that -- and recognize that there's a real consequence to them, very directly, if this doesn't get resolved.
COLLINS: Yes, David, what do you make of this? Because basically what Republicans have been saying to us is that they think Democrats are going to start to feel the pressure.
Last week, I was talking to White House officials who said, We think a few more Democrats, Senate Democrats, are about to break on this.
We haven't yet seen that happen.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST & FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Yes, Kaitlan, it's a shame, because real-life Americans are going to start to suffer here in a few days.
On October 15th, the military is going to miss their paycheck. There's going to be following -- following those dates, there can be four -- more people missing getting paid. Federal employees won't get paid. There's an incredible stress. We're seeing it now in the air traffic control system, because of shortages, people kind of calling out sick and redirecting air traffic.
And so, at some point the American people are going to get tired of it. At what point? We don't know yet.
And listen, I think that Chairman Jordan and others have a valid point. Democrats could just vote for a clean CR. Health care subsidies, these things don't -- they don't go away until sometime in November, so there's plenty of time to continue to negotiate. Doesn't mean the CR -- CR is a continuing resolution.
FINNEY: Well--
URBAN: Doesn't mean the bill is going to be done forever. You can keep negotiating.
And as you know, Kaitlan, you were in the Oval, the other day, and the President said, there's -- he seemed to make space for a deal on health care. Seemed a little different today. But seemed to make space on -- there's a possible deal for a health care resolution.
So, I think if you're Democrats, it'd be best to vote for the clean CR and negotiate on the health care subsidies, moving forward. Because nobody wants to see those health care subsidies kick in or be kick out--
FINNEY: Well--
URBAN: --right before midterm election.
FINNEY: But the challenge -- I'm sorry, Kaitlan, but can I just mention? Part of the issue here is that it's not a clean CR, and the politics have really shifted since the spring, because the CR, the resolution that was initially passed.
What we're talking about now includes $1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid. That's part of the concern that people have about it. So, it's the Medicaid cuts, as well as what's about to happen to health care.
I think if we were -- if we were actually talking about the budget that was passed in 2024, with no changes? That would be a different conversation. But over the summer, we saw Americans come out, in pretty large numbers, across the country, not just in blue cities, or blue districts, and protest, and make their voices heard at town halls. So, I think that's the other part of the politics here, in terms of what's going on, on the ground, in the country.
URBAN: Yes, I--
COLLINS: Well, and David, one thing--
URBAN: Yes.
COLLINS: I want to hear your thoughts on that, David. But also, the other thing we've heard mentioned was what happened also over the last few months, is that they passed a rescissions package here, basically clawing back funding that Congress had approved. And some Democrats have said, We can't trust any agreement even that we make with Republicans or with the White House.
URBAN: Yes, that -- listen, there's been -- there have been plenty articles written on this. The lack of trust on both sides, right? Whether -- and the ability to negotiate in good faith moving forward. It's a real problem.
And listen, again, I think the losers here, every day, are the American people, right? They -- the thing that people elect -- people -- listen, when you come to Washington, you're supposed to make this place work, right? You're supposed to cross the aisle, cut deals. It's not -- you know, people say, It's not pleasant watching the sausage get made. It really isn't.
And so now, we can't pass -- we couldn't pass 13 spending bills. When I used to work on Capitol Hill, back in the Stone Age times, we passed 13 -- we passed 13 separate spending bills, right?
FINNEY: Right.
URBAN: 13 separate spending bills.
COLLINS: So quaint.
URBAN: It was--
FINNEY: Yes--
URBAN: It was crazy, right?
FINNEY: Yes.
URBAN: You know, that whole, like, I'm just a bill on Capitol Hill? Nobody even knows what that means. It doesn't happen anymore, right?
FINNEY: So true. COLLINS: Yes, they're going to have to update that to do what--
URBAN: Schoolhouse Rock--
COLLINS: --continuing resolutions, at this point.
URBAN: Yes, Schoolhouse Rock doesn't even--
FINNEY: Right.
URBAN: --is not applicable, right?
And so members, whether you're Democrat or Republican, you kind of have to figure out where your lines are. And I think that people are going to have to cross over here. Listen, people talk a lot about bipartisanship, as a kind of a dirty word in Washington, these days. But fault lines are drawn. We hope we can erase some of those.
Listen, I like what President Trump said the other day. He wasn't saying that health care was a no. He seemed to be making some space for that.
[21:30:00]
I'm not quite sure that there's anybody negotiating, on the other side, though, because Speaker Jeffries has a different opinion than Minority Leader Schumer. And so, there's lots of voices on the Democratic side. So, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens here in the next few days, so.
COLLINS: Yes, we will.
David Urban. Karen Finney. We will be paying close attention. It's great to have both you all here tonight.
URBAN: Thanks for having us.
COLLINS: Thank you so much.
FINNEY: Thanks.
COLLINS: And up next. Of course, the government has been shut down, but that doesn't mean the hearings aren't happening here, because there was quite a combative one over in the Senate today, as President Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi, was in front of Senators, deflecting and attacking, and attacking some more. She brought the attack lines with her.
We're going to speak to one of the senators, who had a front-row seat and questioned her, just a couple of hours ago.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Attorney General Pam Bondi testified for more than four hours, during a contentious hearing, here on Capitol Hill today, in a performance that satisfied the White House, according to what our sources are telling us at CNN tonight. But Democrats, on the Senate Judiciary Committee, likely were not satisfied.
Even by today's standards, it was a heated, largely partisan hearing that lacked much substance, as the Attorney General battled with the Democrats, over pointed questions about the case against James Comey, who is being arraigned tomorrow, National Guard deployments, and even the Jeffrey Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): There has been public reporting that Jeffrey Epstein showed people photos of President Trump with half- naked young women. Do you know if the FBI found those photographs in their search of Jeffrey Epstein's safe or premises or otherwise? Have you seen any such thing?
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: You know, Senator Whitehouse, you sit here and make salacious remarks, once again, trying to slander President Trump, left and right.
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Who gave the order to flag records related to President Trump?
BONDI: To flag records for President Trump?
DURBIN: To flag any records which included his name.
BONDI: I'm not going to discuss anything about that with you, Senator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The Attorney General arrived on Capitol Hill, with her own personal attacks, prepared to hit back at Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: You voted to shut down the government, and you're sitting here. Our law enforcement officers aren't being paid. They're out there working to protect you. I wish you loved Chicago as much as you hate President Trump.
You were also on video outside the White House, protesting with a group called CASA, where Antifa members were. Does that mean you're a member of Antifa?
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Was she--
BONDI: You know, Senator Schiff? If you worked for me?
SCHIFF: --was she right -- was she--
BONDI: You would have been fired.
SCHIFF: Excuse me. BONDI: Because you were censured by Congress--
SCHIFF: No, I--
BONDI: --for lying with your--
SCHIFF: We can stipulate to--
BONDI: Senator Blumenthal, I cannot believe that you would accuse me of impropriety when you lied about your military service.
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I am -- I am not asking you--
BONDI: You -- you lied. You admitted you lied, to be elected a U.S. Senator.
BLUMENTHAL: --I am not accusing you of impropriety.
BONDI: You lied. How dare you? I'm a career prosecutor.
BLUMENTHAL: I'm asking you about conversations with Mr. Ballard.
BONDI: Don't you ever challenge my integrity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And the Senator you heard from there, at the end, Democratic senator, Richard Blumenthal is my source tonight.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
First, would you like to respond to what the Attorney General was saying today?
BLUMENTHAL: Well, as you can tell, her personal attack on me, discredited 15 years ago, and largely like others, distorted and deceptive, was part of a strategy. Lashing out, because she had no answers or she wanted to avoid answering questions.
And what was really astonishing, as you pointed out very graphically and what you just replayed, was her ducking, evading, avoiding answers on a great breadth of questions. Whether it was Tom Homie -- Homan accepting cash in a bag, and then having the investigation dropped, or the selective prosecution of James Comey, or a variety of antitrust cases that I raised with her, where there was no case pursued, because of lobbyists who were political consultants and friends or allies of the President.
So, this kind of personal attack, I think really, was just extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it, in 15 years. We've had disagreements with attorneys general in the course of our oversight hearing. But these oversight hearings are supposed to elicit facts and explanations for conduct that we're asking about.
COLLINS: And what she's talking about, for people who don't know, because it was 15 years ago, is you had said in a statement then, that you had misspoken about your service. You said, I regret that, and I take full responsibility. That was back in 2010.
Just a few moments, while we were in the commercial, the President posted about this on Truth Social. It's a lengthy post, basically going on about you lying about your military service.
And in here, though, it's very long, but I want to read this part, where he says, quote, "This guy shouldn't even be in the U.S. Senate. It should be investigated, and Justice should be sought. Right now there is a Congressman sitting in prison for lying about his past during a campaign."
I think he's talking about George Santos there.
But when the President is saying that, that this should be investigated and justice should be sought?
BLUMENTHAL: So, this--
COLLINS: What's your reaction to that?
[21:40:00]
BLUMENTHAL: This allegation of 15 years ago has been really rejected by the voters of Connecticut, three times, overwhelmingly reelecting me. But more to the point, I was honorably discharged as a sergeant from the United States Marine Corps. I served in the reserves. And I referred to my service in Vietnam on a handful, just a couple of occasions, rather than during Vietnam.
So, I have served on the Armed Services Committee for at least 15 years, as well as the Veterans Affairs Committee, now as a Ranking Member. And I work and fight for veterans and for the strongest, greatest military in the history of the world, and I'm going to continue to do it.
COLLINS: Do you have any concerns about what the President is saying should happen, or?
BLUMENTHAL: Well, not about what he is saying, except that it is just so completely deceptive and distorted. I've seen the X post, and it really is absurd.
COLLINS: At this hearing today, I mean, there was one point where Dick Durbin said similar to what you said, which is that he'd spent 20 years on the Committee, he said he'd never seen testimony like what he got from the Attorney General today.
One thing that you focused on, and had talked about, was with James Comey being arraigned tomorrow. And this was questions that she faced as well.
She said, I'm not going to discuss conversations I have or have not had with the President of the United States.
That's pretty typical for Cabinet secretaries. But I think what changes is that five days or, I believe, five or six days before Comey was indicted, Trump had posted about it on Truth Social, calling for his prosecution.
BLUMENTHAL: He posted on it on September 20th. Comey was indicted on September 25th. And his post virtually ordered her, without delay, he said, Guilty as hell. Justice has to be served.
And I also pointed out that she had dinner with him, on the evening before Comey was indicted by that grand jury. Another indication that he was, in effect, directing the prosecution.
And what's so important here is malicious or selective prosecution, based on personal animosity, or this kind of vendetta or vengeance, has no place in our criminal justice system.
COLLINS: One thing that your Republican colleagues raised a lot today was this revelation that Jack Smith, as the special prosecutor, sought the call logs of several of your Republican colleagues.
And even Dick Durbin, the top Democrat on that committee today, said that he believes this should be investigated thoroughly, and that we should ignore that. If it were Democrats, I would feel the same way.
Do you believe that it should be investigated as well?
BLUMENTHAL: I agree that we need more information about what exactly happened. Chairman Grassley, in effect, sprung this revelation on all of the committee members. And I think we need more information about it, absolutely.
COLLINS: Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you for joining us tonight, after quite a day on Capitol Hill.
BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Really appreciate your time.
Up next here. We're going to check in. Because, of course, negotiators from Israel and Hamas have been in Egypt. They are now locked in those crucial talks, as they're trying to finalize a Gaza ceasefire deal in the coming days. That would include the release of all remaining Israeli hostages.
And tonight, on two years since October 7th, I'm going to speak to the parents of Omer Neutra, as their emotional plea for the return of their son who was killed that day still goes on.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, a source tells CNN that both Israel and Hamas have made progress, during those first two days of negotiations in Egypt to end the war that Hamas started, with its brutal terror attacks, two years ago tonight.
Soon, the President's Middle East envoy, Steve Witkoff, and his son- in-law, Jared Kushner, are expected to meet with the Qatari and Egyptian mediators, as they try to close a deal, this week.
Hamas, of course, as we know, killed more than 1,200 people on October 7th, 2023. More than 250 hostages were also taken into Gaza on that day. Israelis in Tel Aviv mourned this painful day tonight, by sharing tributes to those that they lost. So many of them, along with the families of the 48 hostages, still in Gaza, are clinging to hope that a deal can be made, so that their loved ones can come home.
Among them are Ronen and Orna Neutra, the parents of Omer Neutra, who was a 21-year-old American-Israeli soldier, serving as an IDF tank platoon commander, when he was killed by Hamas on that day. His body was taken into Gaza.
And earlier tonight, I spoke to his parents about their efforts and their hope that they can finally bring their son home.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thank you guys so much for being here. I'm always grateful to talk to you, especially on a day like today.
You were at the White House, earlier. I saw you guys, when you were outside the West Wing. How did your meeting with the President go?
RONEN NEUTRA, FATHER OF OMER NEUTRA: It was very important for us to meet with the President, especially on a day like today, two years mark. It's a very symbolic day, where so many people were killed, two years ago, so many soldiers have died in this war, so much suffering.
And it was important for us to say that we are seeing him, we are seeing what he is doing, and what he managed to do, and put together a coalition of Arab nations, and put the pressure, both on Israel, and on Hamas, to reach an agreement in which there will be a future ceasefire, and for us, as hostage families, as a top priority, to bring the hostages. For us, this is a gamechanger, a tipping point, and we're hoping that that's going to happen in the next few days. That's what we came to tell him.
[21:50:00]
I think we heard that he is expecting the next few days to be pretty critical, and hoping for good news. And we just wanted to support him, and say that it's pretty incredible, if he's managing to pull it up.
COLLINS: And you've spent two years fighting for this, and also grieving and dealing with so much. And I know that the hostages, obviously, has been a number one priority. It's one that we hear about and have covered every day since.
And I wonder if it's hard for you to feel in this moment, to feel hope that maybe this is going to reach an agreement and a conclusion, and you will be able to have that moment.
But also, we've seen them come close before, only to have things not work out, and you too, and your family has endured that for two years now. ORNA NEUTRA, MOTHER OF OMER NEUTRA: You're absolutely right. We've been on this roller coaster since October 7th. We're talking about the biggest terrorist attack.
But the hostages that are in the Hamas tunnels, and the families of the hostages, are all being terrorized for, really, for two years with no closure, with no, you know, not being able to heal, to move forward from this. We're all stuck in this.
For our family, specifically, we anticipate this moment, and we dread this moment, right? We've been told that Omer is not alive. But yet for us to move forward, we need him back. We need that proof. We need that closure. We need to be able to give him the burial that he deserves, and for us to be able to continue.
COLLINS: Your son was a huge Knicks fan, and I know how much he loved Kobe Bryant and idolized him. And something special happened recently, where a park was dedicated in honor of that love that he had.
And I just wonder, as a mom, you're too -- on the second -- you know, now that you're two years in since October 7th happened, what it's like for you, on a daily basis?
O. NEUTRA: So, I mean that park dedication was bittersweet for us. It came from our community. They wanted to do something to honor Omer. And the leadership of Nassau County, which is where we live, reciprocated. They said, We really want to do this for the community, for Omer, he deserves it, we appreciate what he did.
He stepped out of his comfort zone, and he put himself in harm's way for the values that he believed in. And so, they felt that they wanted to honor him in that way.
And for us, we said, We are still in this fight to bring Omer back. We're not in -- we're not talking about legacy right now. But we can't say no to something like this, right? This is, it's such a warm- hearted gesture.
It's a place where Omer grew up. It's a neighborhood park right -- right close to our home, where kids play, where Omer played basketball every day with his friends, where Ronen taught him how to ride his bicycle. So, the idea that kids will play and will know about Omer, for years to come, was something that we really embraced, and really appreciated that support.
R. NEUTRA: Yes, on top of it, we live in an environment that there is so much hostility, and the moral compass in America somehow broke. Right now, we're in a situation, where a lot of the groups, the poor Palestinians were calling for ceasefire for two years. And here we are. President Trump put a ceasefire agreement on the table.
I don't hear this group saying, Let's take it. Hamas, put down your weapons, give the hostages back. The people in Gaza deserve to get their peace and stability. I don't hear that.
And the leaders, like our Nassau executive, Bruce Blakeman, and our Town Executive, Joseph Saladino, they heard the message that we need to embrace the people that fight for freedom, that love democracy, that love United States, but also appreciate what Israel is all about. And if we don't defend--
O. NEUTRA: Yes.
R. NEUTRA: --the democracy in Israel, like our son believed in? It's going to come here. And let's not forget, it was here, in 9/11, Omer was born a month after 9/11, in Manhattan. So, we have seen both ends. Unfortunately, we couldn't protect him, the second time. But we have to fight terrorism wherever it is, or else it's going to come back here.
O. NEUTRA: And we need to be clear about that.
COLLINS: Yes. It's a beautiful tribute to your son, Omer, and I know how important getting him home is. And everyone is praying that that happens, and that it happens soon, for your sake.
O. NEUTRA: Thank you.
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Thank you so much for joining us, on obviously, what is such a painful day. I really am so grateful for you all's time.
O. NEUTRA: Thank you.
R. NEUTRA: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you both.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And up next here for us, as we're back on Capitol Hill, how the government shutdown could affect you, if you're going to be traveling soon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We're continuing to follow the breaking news, here on Capitol Hill, as the ramifications of this shutdown are being felt far beyond Washington. Delays are spreading to airports across the country, this evening, as the government shutdown is dragging on.
[22:00:00]
Major airports don't have enough air traffic controllers working tonight. That includes Chicago's O'Hare Airport. It is one of the busiest, if you've ever been there. And that's including with the facilities that handle the planes coming in and out of Houston, Newark, Las Vegas, Boston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, and Dallas. In Nashville, so many of the controllers stayed home, that the facility actually had to shut down for five hours, leading to a ground stop, earlier tonight. The Transportation Secretary warned this week, that more controllers are starting to call out sick during the government shutdown, during which they are forced to work without getting paid.
We're going to continue to monitor the impact of the shutdown, it is now nearing its eight day at midnight tonight, with right now, unfortunately, no end in sight.
Thank you so much for joining us, live here, on Capitol Hill, tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
