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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
White House Begins Firing Federal Workers Amid Shutdown; Mamdani After James Indictment: "Many Of Us" Will Have To Take Legal Precautions; Netflix Drama Imagines 18-Minute Countdown To Nuclear Impact. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 10, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: You write about your captivity in the new book, "Hostage."
Eli Sharabi, thank you so much for your time tonight.
ELI SHARABI, HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA, WIFE AND DAUGHTERS KILLED ON OCT. 7, AUTHOR, "HOSTAGE": Thank you for having me.
COOPER: That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight, with just a four-word tweet, many federal workers found out they were about to be fired, as President Trump follows through on his shutdown threat.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, President Trump is taking an unprecedented step, to maximize the pain of this government shutdown that is still dragging on, for people who played no part in shutting the government down.
Making good on the President's threat, the administration has started firing federal workers. Word came from the same official that the President portrayed, just last week, as the Grim Reaper. This AI video is the public image that the President amplified for his Budget Director, Russ Vought. The actual announcement came in just four words. The RIFs have begun. RIF, meaning Reduction in Force.
And when the President himself was asked about this, inside the Oval Office, just a few hours ago, including who exactly is going to be fired as a part of this mass layoff that they have threatened to happen, during this government shutdown, he didn't offer any information other than to state very clearly what his objective is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: How many layoffs have you authorized for this first round?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, it'll be a lot (ph).
REPORTER: And from which agencies? TRUMP: And it will be Democrat-oriented, because we figure, you know, they started this thing, so they should be Democrat-oriented. It will be a lot, and we'll announce the numbers over the next couple of days, but it will be a lot of people, all because of the Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Whether those words will be used in forthcoming lawsuits, remains to be seen.
But the only hard numbers that we've gotten our hands on tonight, about these firings, came from a court filing that said more than 4,000 people were given layoff notices, across seven different government agencies. Commerce. Education. Energy. Health and Human Services. Housing and Urban Development. The Department of Homeland Security. And the Treasury Department. The reason we have those numbers is because unions that represent federal workers are already in court, arguing that these layoffs are illegal.
But the administration, on the other hand, is arguing that the loss of federal employment, as they put it, would not take place until weeks or months from now, if at all.
And the President, who, of course, made You're fired, a catchphrase, during his career before entering politics, is doing what no president, during any of the 14 government shutdowns since 1981, has done. Mass firings.
I asked the press secretary about that unprecedented move, earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Historically, though, in past shutdowns, workers have been furloughed but they have not been laid off en masse. So, wouldn't that be the President's call to lay people off?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: As I've said repeatedly, Kaitlan, this conversation about layoffs would not be happening right now if the Democrats did not vote to shut the government down.
And as I also said last briefing as well, we are $37 trillion in debt, and the government is not receiving any cash. So, someone has to look at the balance sheet and be good stewards of the American taxpayer dollar. And layoffs are an unfortunate consequence of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My lead source tonight was the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security under President Obama, Jeh Johnson.
Welcome back to THE SOURCE. And it's great to have you.
JEH JOHNSON, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY UNDER PRES. OBAMA: Thank you. COLLINS: Especially just given the perch that you did have, running the third largest federal agency. When you were in that role, did you think that the President could just unilaterally eliminate thousands of jobs if there was a government shutdown?
JOHNSON: No.
And it will get resolved in court. They're already in court, fighting this. Many of these workers are unionized.
And is there excess, is there fat in the federal government? Yes, of course. But there's a smart way to go about that.
I ran, as you noted, the third largest department of our government. 230,000 people. So, I'm sympathetic to the workers who are caught up in the middle of this political fight, and being used as a political football.
10 years ago, Republicans wanted to shut down DHS over immigration, and the motivation for me was a worker -- a lot of these people do live paycheck to paycheck. A TSA worker from West Orange, New Jersey came to me and said, Mr. Secretary, I have stage four cancer. I need my paycheck for my co-pays. And that was my motivation.
[21:05:00]
I'm going to break from the party line here on this. I'm a Democrat. I'm with John Fetterman and Angus King.
The problem I see here is that, to pass a budget, it needs 60 votes in the Senate. And what is happening each year now, and what I fear is going to happen in the future is the minority party wants to link that to some other very, very important issue. Affordable health care is critical, obviously. But I fear that this is going to happen every year, every September, October, November.
The most basic function of Congress is to fund the government, turn the lights on, keep the government working, so that the 3 million people who are public servants are able to do what they do to serve all the rest of us.
COLLINS: So you think that Democrats should vote to reopen the government?
JOHNSON: I believe that Congress should vote to reopen the government.
Apparently, you need seven Democrats to make that happen in the Senate. I think that the mistake our democracy is making is linking the need for that 60 votes to some other issue, even though it's a very, very critical issue. Because what's going to happen is that this will occur every fall from this point forward. It'd be a downward spiral--
COLLINS: You're worried that they're setting a precedent, basically?
JOHNSON: I'm worried about the precedent, yes. COLLINS: Yes. And I mean, the question is, how long this could drag on? Because you're right. I was flying today. TSA workers, they're not getting paychecks anymore. What they get will be limited based on how many days they worked before the shutdown. And then starting, next week, members of the military are going to start missing paychecks on October 15th.
JOHNSON: Right, and that takes its toll on morale. It takes its toll on the ability to deliver government services. It takes its toll on aviation security, border security, maritime security, cyber security. These are critical functions to protect the American people. And if Congress does not fund the government, the American people are (ph) being provided a number of things, including their own basic security.
COLLINS: But on the mass layoffs, and canceling government programs. I mean, as I noted, we researched this, there's no evidence of any president in modern history doing this.
Do you know any legal authority that would -- that would allow the President to lay off federal workers en masse, over the shutdown, and the President there specifically saying, Democratic-oriented ones?
JOHNSON: No, and this will have to be resolved in court, obviously. Most federal workers, many federal workers, are protected from this type of thing. They have a guarantee that, I won't be fired for -- in the middle of a political dispute. This will have to get resolved in court.
COLLINS: And what would it mean? I mean, you ran the DHS, and you knew so many of these people, as you noted there. If they don't get back pay, if the people who are furloughed and who are forced to not go to work, don't get their back pay for this period?
JOHNSON: A lot of these people live paycheck to paycheck. And so, it is costing them real money to, during a government shutdown, to not get -- not get their back pay. But, hopefully, once this is resolved, you do get back pay, but there's no guarantee of that. Congress has to act to make that happen.
COLLINS: Yes, and we've seen members of Congress who voted to guarantee making that happen say they don't stand by it anymore.
Can I ask you, because the other thing that we've been following this week is the court rulings that came down on the National Guard deployment.
JOHNSON: Yes.
COLLINS: And I wonder, just given that you also were a top attorney, the top attorney at the Defense Department. When they don't say whether or not the National Guard is still at that ICE facility, despite the ruling that came down this week, does that concern you?
JOHNSON: Yes. And what concerns me is, first of all, one of the reasons our U.S. military is so highly regarded by Americans is because we have, through the life of this country, kept it cabined to overseas conflicts. You don't see the U.S. military in cities. There's a principle in America called a Posse Comitatus. We do not use the U.S. military for domestic law enforcement.
More and more, the courts are having to get involved in what traditionally has been an executive branch function, where the President, the Commander-in-Chief, gets a lot of deference.
But now we're in a situation, because of the way this President is using his National Guard as military, where courts are having to plunge in and second-guess exactly what's happening on the streets of Portland or Chicago.
And I thought it was notable that the District Judge in Portland ruled that, as far as she was concerned, that wasn't a justification for this. That's unprecedented, because it's typically something that is reserved to the President to make a judgment about.
COLLINS: Yes. Can I also ask you the other major headline this week, which it's kind of hard to think that it's not--
JOHNSON: I'm checking a lot of boxes for you.
COLLINS: It's hard to think that it's not the only major headline.
JOHNSON: Right.
COLLINS: But that's kind of the state of the news cycle right now. But Letitia James being indicted--
JOHNSON: Yes.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: --as she was yesterday. Which, we reported today, caught the Justice Department off guard. We'll get into that more in a moment.
But as someone who served with James Comey, the person who is also now representing James Comey, in this case, I wonder what your reaction was to that.
JOHNSON: Yes, I was a federal prosecutor with Jim Comey and Pat Fitzgerald, late 80s, early 90s.
Look, this, the prosecution of Jim, the prosecution of Letitia James, has the look and the feel and the smell of a selective, vindictive, politically-motivated prosecution.
Our State Department, as you probably know, grades other countries for human rights abuses, including politically-motivated prosecutions. I'm afraid that in this country, we may have to give ourselves an F for doing exactly that.
The Letitia James prosecution is going to be a rough one for the government. Because, I mean, if you've ever got a mortgage, first of all, the banker says, with all these flags, Sign here, initial here, initial here, initial here. The government has to prove criminal intent, an intent to defraud a bank here.
And it's going to be murky. Apparently, she took out this loan, because it was the -- with the understanding it was a second residence. But the government takes the position it was for investment? That might be murky. We don't know what the timeline looks like.
And I suspect, it's going to be very, very hard to prove criminal intent here, and there will be all sorts of pretrial motions to dismiss. It's not the fight that any seasoned prosecutor would pick.
COLLINS: Yes, and it's one that clearly some of them resisted doing, and why they don't work there any longer.
JOHNSON: Correct.
COLLINS: Mr. Secretary, it's great to have you, as always. Thank you for joining us here tonight.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
COLLINS: And I should note that as we're talking about this government shutdown. And, right now, this is a sign of how there's no end in sight at the moment of this shutdown, of millions of Americans being impacted.
I'm going to moderate a town hall, a CNN Town Hall, with Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, on the shutdown. They'll answer questions from Democrats, Republicans, Independents, and that includes people who have been directly affected by what's been happening in Washington. You can watch that next Wednesday, here on CNN, October 15th, 09:00 p.m. Eastern.
Up next here for us tonight. One-on-one with the Democratic candidate for mayor of New York City, Zohran Mamdani. What he had to say about the indictment of the New York Attorney General, Letitia James, including what she said to him when they spoke, just last night.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As Donald Trump proved during the presidential campaign, being charged with a crime can often result in a huge money haul.
A source familiar with Letitia James' political operation tells CNN that the New York Attorney General brought in $567,000 in the 24 hours since she was indicted yesterday, for alleged bank fraud. Her best fundraising day of her decades-long career, actually.
Tonight, the polling frontrunner to be the next Mayor of New York City, Zohran Mamdani is fiercely coming to James' defense, standing outside the same courthouse, where she famously sued Trump for business fraud. He went on the attack against President Trump, a role that he believes is critical to being the next leader of New York City. And joining me now is the Democratic New York City mayoral candidate, Zohran Mamdani.
And thank you so much for being here.
Obviously, following the news of the indictment of the Attorney General here, Letitia James, last night, I know you said you actually got a chance to speak with her after she was indicted. What did she have to say to you?
ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE, NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLYMEMBER: She told me, Don't worry about me. And I think that's just indicative of what she means to so many New Yorkers. She's somebody who has put the city, the state, the people of it, first. And frankly, that's why Donald Trump is persecuting her.
It's because of the fact that she looks at everyone in this state, everyone in this country, is being held to the same standards of the law, and she held Donald Trump to that same law, and he couldn't take the audacity that he would have that applied to him.
And so, what we're seeing is the weaponization of justice, and it's one that's looking to make an example of the Attorney General. But it's one where we will have her back through every step of the way.
COLLINS: Well, and Trump has always pointed to what she said, on the campaign trail, that she would go after Trump, that he would not be above the law if she won. Obviously, she did prosecute him.
He's gone after you, multiple times as well. He's called you many things, including, quote, a "Communist Lunatic," which I'm sure you're well-aware of.
MAMDANI: Yes.
COLLINS: Do you worry that he might try to come after you as well?
MAMDANI: Look, I think we've seen, whether it be with James Comey, whether it be with Attorney General James, that this is not something that Donald Trump is going to stop at any one individual. It's a feature of his political agenda, and it is the only thing that he can quite deliver on in this moment.
And so, I know that when he makes these threats of denaturalizing me, deporting me, arresting me, these are ones that he may intend to deliver on. And yet, it is also the price of standing up to that administration that many of us are willing to pay, if it means actually standing up for New Yorkers.
COLLINS: Do you prepare for something like that, if he does try to come after you, in terms of that?
MAMDANI: Well, I mean, when I was speaking to Attorney General James, she said, I have the best legal team around me, and that gave her confidence. And I think many of us will have to take those same precautions. But what is so alarming is that in this moment when we are seeing authoritarianism, plain and simple, the weaponization of the Department of Justice, we have other candidates running for the same seat that I am, the Mayor of New York City, like Andrew Cuomo, who can't even bring themselves to issue a statement with the names, Tish James, or Donald Trump.
[21:20:00]
And just this morning, while I was standing alongside people who have been on the frontlines of this fight, be it Congresswoman Nydia Velazquez, or Maya Wiley, or the Speaker of the City Council, Adrienne Adams, Andrew Cuomo was on TV, refusing to denounce Donald Trump's persecution of Attorney General James, and refusing to describe that as political when it's clear for all of us to see.
COLLINS: And he put out a statement, last night, obviously on her indictment. Cuomo did not mention--
MAMDANI: No.
COLLINS: --Letitia James by name in that statement.
MAMDANI: Yes.
COLLINS: What did that say to you?
MAMDANI: I think it just shows how unwilling he is to actually name what it is that we are seeing or who it's even impacting.
And the only thing that I can give him the benefit of the doubt for is that he's at least showing New Yorkers a glimpse of what his capitulation will look like, if he were to be the Mayor of this city. It would be one that would continue the era we've seen from Mayor Adams, where there are oftentimes press conferences where he will refuse to even say the President's name or acknowledge the crisis that the President is bringing to this city.
COLLINS: Yes, he argues that because he battled Trump before, that he could do so again.
Obviously, Mayor Adams is now out of this race. We've seen your polling remain pretty steady. You're about 13 points ahead of him. But he is 10 points higher than where he was previously, according to the latest Quinnipiac poll.
One question about that is, is something that's been brought up on Capitol Hill, multiple times this week, is why the Democratic leaders there have not endorsed you? Have they told you why they haven't endorsed you, yet?
MAMDANI: The conversations that we've had have always been focused on the necessity of an affordability agenda. And I have to say that, in this moment especially, I'm appreciative of the fact that we have Democrats in Washington, holding the line, making sure that we protect the health care of millions of Americans across this country. And what I will see, and I'm seeing right now across the city, is that New Yorkers are desperate for a mayor who can stand up to Donald Trump. And in these next three and a half weeks, we have the opportunity to let New Yorkers know that part of the reason that Andrew Cuomo won't say his name is that Andrew Cuomo is funded by the same billionaires who gave us Donald Trump's second term.
COLLINS: Trump has argued that Democrats don't really have real leadership in this moment, that they're kind of lost at sea, essentially. Is that how you see it? Or do you think that Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are doing a good job in Washington?
MAMDANI: I think holding the line right now, for health care, for millions of Americans, that is exactly what we need.
But I understand what Donald Trump is saying, if he's referring to Andrew Cuomo, because Andrew Cuomo is what used to pass for a leader in the Democratic Party. And now, he refers to Democrats in the third person. He refers to them as something he doesn't belong to. And that's indicative of the fact that he's only out there for himself. That's the only constant in his own politics, is his ambition.
COLLINS: If you were mayor today, and Trump pulled the infrastructure funding, as he did for major projects here in New York, something that Republicans have been trying to convince them to reverse. What would you do specifically to try to stop it?
MAMDANI: I think there are a number of things. The first is, you utilize every legal tool at your disposal. You sue Donald Trump, because too often, what we find is we're treating his pronouncements as if they are legal, just by virtue of them coming from his mouth.
And we've seen in California, when you have Governor Newsom, and Mayor Bass, and the Attorney General of the State, coming together to file a lawsuit, federal judge found in their favor. The deployment of the National Guard was illegal.
The Attorney General there estimates that for every dollar they spent on legal fees, they recovered more than $30,000, in what would have otherwise been lost federal funding. And we've seen whether it be Pritzker in Illinois, Governor Hochul here in New York, there is the means by which to fight back through the legal tools.
And also, we have to actually make the case in public. I don't think I've heard our Mayor, right now, say all that much about the $18 billion in infrastructure funding, or from Andrew Cuomo, for that matter.
But what I will say is that it jeopardizes the promise we made to people in Harlem, decades ago, the subway station would actually be built on 125th Street, would extend the Second Avenue Line, and the people who are using the most used rail travel--
COLLINS: Yes.
MAMDANI: --in the country. COLLINS: Do you think the Governor has made that case forcefully enough?
MAMDANI: I think the Governor has been making a good case, and I think the Governor has shown that there is a way to beat Donald Trump, and the way is to actually fight back.
Because we used to hear Donald Trump talk a lot about congestion pricing. He doesn't do it anymore. And part of that is because the Governor actually stood up and said, No.
What we would see if former Governor Cuomo was the mayor, is he would accept the terms of the agreement, right when Donald Trump made them.
COLLINS: President Trump is going to the Middle East this weekend. Obviously, there is now a ceasefire in place. The IDF troops are pulling back. People are returning to Gaza. Do you believe the President deserves credit for brokering this ceasefire?
MAMDANI: I'll say that the news of a ceasefire leaves me with hope, the images of children celebrating. And I pray that it is lasting. I pray that it delivers peace.
And I think that the question of praise should come in the enforcement of this ceasefire. Because what this agreement can never do is erase what the last few years of tragedy have been for so many, whether it be Hamas' horrific war crime of October 7th, or the Israeli government's genocide of Palestinians since.
And what we are talking about is no agreement can bring back the rubble or make it whole, it can bring back entire bloodlines that have been erased, it can bring back hostages that died in captivity. And so, we continue to both mourn and remember what has occurred and hope that the future will look far different than it.
COLLINS: So what -- at what point would you decide that he does deserve credit for it?
MAMDANI: If the genocide ends, then I think that's something worthy to be praised. And if the hostages are returned. Those things together have to be done in tandem.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: So, you think maybe in a week after you see if the hostages are returned, the fighting is continued to have ceased, that then maybe at that point you would give him credit for this?
MAMDANI: I think if it sustains, yes.
And the fact of the matter is that the hostage families themselves said, Everyone for everyone, they reminded us of the universality of what a resolution could look like. And we have to ensure that there's a universality in the delivery and the enforcement of a ceasefire, so that we can actually build a peaceful future, as opposed to one that elides over the injustice that's become a constant. COLLINS: I ask because I spoke to a Palestinian American last night. We've had him on this show, multiple times. He has a lot of family living in Gaza. Has a lot of family that was killed in Gaza, over the last two years. He said that this ceasefire gave him hope in a way that he hasn't felt in two years.
And you had called many times, Ceasefire now--
MAMDANI: Yes.
COLLINS: --repeatedly, since October 7th. And there is a ceasefire in place now.
MAMDANI: Yes, and what I'm saying is that I want it to last, and I think that the praise comes when it is delivered. And there's a lot of news about it. The images are incredible, of seeing these children celebrating, and I want to make sure that it is something lasting. But I do think this is what people have been hoping for. It's just that there have been so many false starts along the way. And we have to deliver this.
And I'll tell you, as someone who's looking to be the Mayor of this city, to represent this city, my responsibility is to this city.
And recently, I was speaking with a Palestinian New Yorker, who told me how he'd spent decades saving up to build a house in Gaza, and how it was destroyed by the Israeli military in just one drop of a bomb, and how his son and his daughter-in-law live in Gaza today, with their grandchildren, and how his son called him the other week, and said -- he gave the phone to his grandkid, and the grandkid said, I'm hungry. And this man told me I couldn't do anything for him, I couldn't send him anything.
And so, the news that the prospect of that child being able to eat, that family being able to live a life of safety? That is news that fills me with hope. I just want to make sure that it's real.
COLLINS: Zohran Mamdani, thank you for joining us tonight.
MAMDANI: Thank you so much for having me.
COLLINS: Really appreciate it.
Up next. Our new reporting on the indictment of Letitia James, and how it caught Attorney General Pam Bondi off guard and by surprise. My source tonight is the former Trump attorney, Michael Cohen.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, new reporting from our team here at CNN.
We're told that the Attorney General Pam Bondi was actually caught off guard, yesterday, when President Trump's handpicked federal prosecutor, Lindsey Halligan, secured that indictment against the New York Attorney General, Letitia James. That's because, we are told by sources, Halligan actually did not coordinate with Attorney General Bondi, or any of the leaders inside the Justice Department's main headquarters in Washington.
We previously had reported that both Attorney General Bondi, and the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, had viewed the case against James as weak, reflecting the same feeling and sentiment that Halligan's predecessor had. That was the U.S. attorney, Erik Siebert, who President Trump had put in that role just in May, and then fired and replaced with Halligan in the last month.
Sources say, though that despite those internal doubts, Halligan had told some people, in recent days, including at least one Justice Department official, that she was going to move forward with these charges against James.
We asked the Justice Department for a statement in response to our reporting. And a spokesperson told CNN, This Justice Department is united as one team in our mission to make America safe again and the attorney general, deputy attorney general, along with the entire team at Main Justice continue to empower our US attorneys to pursue justice in every case.
My source tonight is the former Trump attorney, and the host of "Mea Culpa" podcast, Michael Cohen. He's also the Author of "Revenge: How Donald Trump Weaponized the US Department of Justice Against His Critics."
Pretty timely title, I would say.
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP LAWYER, AUTHOR, "REVENGE," PODCAST HOST, "MEA CULPA": Yes--
COLLINS: What do you make of the fact though, that Lindsey Halligan caught Attorney General Pam Bondi off guard with this indictment? Does that surprise you at all?
COHEN: Well, the answer to that is no. Trump always maintains an open door, and too many people take advantage of that.
Now, if you listen to the DOJ spokesperson statement, to you? Everybody seems to be working in tandem and coordination. So, the question always becomes, who's telling the truth here? Is the source that you received telling the truth? Or is the DOJ telling the truth? And I don't have the answer to that one.
COLLINS: Well, I'll just say, no one denied our reporting.
But this came after, and I don't know if you saw this this week, that private -- that message that Trump posted, basically telling Pam Bondi to go after Letitia James, James Comey, and Adam Schiff, the yet-to- be-named one, that it was supposed to be a private message to Bondi.
You obviously worked for Trump, and had a very longstanding relationship with him. Does that look like something he would say in a private message, a direction like that? COHEN: Not particularly, you know?
COLLINS: Why not?
COHEN: Because he doesn't generally write long text messages like that. They're generally -- when he's doing it and it's supposed to be private? It's generally short. This is kind of longer in length. So, I don't know.
Again, it's reporting. There's so much misinformation, disinformation, malinformation out there, the general public has no idea what's accurate, what's truthful and what's not.
COLLINS: Well, we do know what's truthful is that Trump wanted these two people to be indicted.
COHEN: Oh, no, no, no, not those two. There's must -- must be another 100 behind them.
COLLINS: Well, you predicted this would actually--
COHEN: I predicted--
COLLINS: --happen.
[21:35:00]
COHEN: I predicted, in order, that first it would be Comey, then it would be Tish James. I also was on a competing station, and I turned around and said, It's either going to be John Bolton next, or George Soros, one of the two, for sure. And if I had to make a prediction on the one after that, it will be Adam Schiff.
COLLINS: What would your advice to any of those people be?
COHEN: Lawyer up and figure out how to get out of this. Because no matter how hard you fight, remember one thing. All of these pundits that you see on television, with the fancy titles at the bottom of the chyron, they all give you their opinion. None of us have seen what the documents say.
Now, they -- when they were the ones wielding the sword, yes, they were rough. They were tough. They'll turn around, and tell you, I have a 98 percent conviction rate.
When you hear people tell you that Tish James has nothing to worry about, that James Comey has nothing to worry about? When they come on television themselves and put out those videos? Let me tell you, they're lying as well. They're very nervous. And why? Because they don't wield the power. Trump does. The DOJ does. And as somebody who's gone through it, I'm telling you, nobody wins.
When they say they have a 98 percent conviction? It's not because they're brilliant. It's not because they're geniuses. It's because they use the power of government within which to get you to capitulate. What do you think is going to happen to Tish James? What do you think is going to happen to James Comey? What do you think--
COLLINS: You're saying they should actually be worried that this could lead to convictions?
COHEN: 100 percent. I believe they will all be convicted. And why? We don't know yet what the documents actually say.
Let's just take, for example, Tish James' comments. When she became Attorney General. She went after Trump, making the statements, Well, Donald Trump is no different than anybody else, and we need to hold him accountable for whatever crimes he committed.
Well, here's the thing about Trump. He knows that there is nobody, living or deceased, that doesn't have something in their closet, a skeleton that if government got their hands on, can weaponize against you. And he is using that within which to go after his political enemies, the people he doesn't like.
COLLINS: But can I -- can I ask you, just as someone who worked for him for so long and, at his behest, did a lot of things, as you testified before Congress and have said since, what do you make of the Lindsey Halligan of it all?
Because, she's been installed in this position, she's doing things that other people in that position resisted doing so, because they didn't think that there was enough evidence in those evidence in those cases. I think if they thought that there was, you know? It's like the Bill Barr effect. They probably would have brought charges against them, but they didn't feel like it was strong enough.
Do you -- I mean, what would you say to -- what are your thoughts on Lindsey Halligan?
COHEN: So, my thought is, people are underestimating Lindsey Halligan. If I hear one more pundit, turn around and say, Oh, she was a former beauty queen, or she has no prosecutorial experience? They could take their -- their -- what's the better -- I don't want to say it, because I'm not allowed to say it, on tele -- they could take their attitudes and they could take their preconceived notions and go file them somewhere.
COLLINS: Why do you say that?
COHEN: Because--
COLLINS: Why do you say that?
COHEN: --it doesn't matter the fact that she doesn't have prosecutorial -- if the documents, in this case, for example, the Tish James case, are as described, that this is mortgage fraud, or this is misrepresentation to financial institutions? A first year law student can actually take this case to conviction. The documents speak for themselves. Now, again, I haven't seen any of these documents. But if those documents say what they do? I watched your previous commentary with Jeh Johnson, and so on. Again, when you wield the sword, you think you're strong. When you wield the sword against Trump? He shows up with a bazooka. And when you go, and say, Wait, hold on one second, you dropped the sword off, you bring a bazooka? He rolls in with a Sherman tank.
He told you what he was going to do. He said that he was going to come after them. He--
COLLINS: But does that make it right, in your view?
COHEN: It's not a question of right and wrong.
COLLINS: You talked about the weaponization of the Justice Department. I mean, do you not feel that he is weaponizing the Justice Department?
COHEN: Well, I believe the Justice Department has been weaponized for a much longer time than Donald Trump has been in office, including the first term. This is not new. Again, it goes back to the 98 percent conviction rate. They are not geniuses.
COLLINS: But do you think the three people he dislikes the most, these three that he's named here, James Comey, Letitia James, and Adam Schiff, all happen to commit mortgage fraud?
COHEN: Well, no, I don't think the--
COLLINS: And with James Comey, he lied in front of Congress?
[21:40:00]
COHEN: I don't think John Bolton is mortgage fraud. I think the one that's going to be coming has to do -- and James Comey is not mortgage fraud either.
COLLINS: Right. But Letitia James and Adam Schiff, that's what they've said for both of them.
COHEN: If that's the crime, like what they both said, if they are accountable.
You see, this isn't about Donald Trump. This isn't about James Comey. This isn't about Letitia James. This is about whether or not Lindsey Halligan is going to be able to use the documentation that exists, and be able to demonstrate that they committed a crime.
COLLINS: And you think people are under--
COHEN: Because Republicans--
COLLINS: You think people are underestimating her?
COHEN: 100 percent. And only because I believe that the documents will speak for themselves. It is not the complicated case that everybody is trying to make out of it. And here's the thing, though. Republicans, of course, are cheering this on. Democrats, on the other hand, are turning around, screaming, Political revenge. This same back-and-forth has gone on forever. This is nothing new. The weaponization of the Department of Justice. How many people have gone to prison based on weak cases?
COLLINS: We'll find out--
COHEN: A lot.
COLLINS: We'll find out what happens here.
Michael Cohen, thank you for joining us tonight.
COHEN: Good to see you.
COLLINS: As always.
Up next. A missile, a coin flip, and the fate of millions. That is the premise of a new nuclear thriller on Netflix. My source tonight is actually one of the film's stars.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACY LETTS, STAR, "A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE," ACTOR, PLAYWRIGHT & SCREENWRITER: (As General Anthony Brady): These are the circumstances.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's right.
LETTS: (As General Anthony Brady): In little more than seven minutes, we will lose the City of Chicago. I can't tell you why, or why we're seeing North Korea, Russia, China, Pakistan and even Iran, raising their alerts and mobilizing their forces across air, land and sea.
Perhaps, as Mr. Baerington suggested earlier? They are simply and innocently responding to our posture. It is also possible that they've seen our homeland is about to absorb a catastrophic blow, and they are readying to take advantage of that.
Or this is all part of a phased coordinated assault with far worse to come. I simply don't know.
What I do know is this. If we do not take steps to neutralize our enemies now, we will lose our window to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That is a clip from the new Netflix film, "A House of Dynamite," which portrays how the highest levels of our government might respond, if a nuclear missile was headed for the United States mainland with only 18 minutes until impact. Joining me tonight is the award-winning actor that you just saw there, Tracy Letts, who plays Strategic Command General Anthony Brady in the film.
And it's so great to have you here.
I've actually already seen this. I won't give away any spoilers for people. But this movie is truly incredible. As someone who covers the White House, and people who are in the Sit Room, I was -- I was very drawn to it.
I wonder what you thought of the role, going into it, and what it was like when you were actually playing it.
LETTS: Well, first of all, Kathryn Bigelow reaches out and says, Are you interested in being in my new movie? And you say, Yes, even before you necessarily know what the subject matter is.
But then, I read the script. The script is a remarkable script. It's very well-researched. There's a documentary level of detail. Obviously, the stakes are huge. And the role was a challenge. I mean, I'm not a military guy. And so, to play that guy, and to have that bearing, and that kind of responsibility, was part of the challenge of doing the part. But it was great fun.
COLLINS: Well, I imagine with any role, obviously, you have to do a lot of research and learning. But to learn so much about what it would like to be in the seat of the official there.
I know you actually had genuine STRATCOM officials there, to kind of help and guide you. I wonder what kind of insight they gave you into -- to what it's like to be the person offering advice to the President of the United States?
LETTS: Yes, the truth is, I didn't do that much research. People get mad if I say that, because you're supposed to do a lot. But the truth is, so much of the -- of the research was on the page, so much of the dramaturgy is on the page. It was so thoroughly researched and thoroughly vetted.
The language was so authentic. And in a way, my research -- those -- those technical advisers we had in the room, that was my research. I had a three-star general and a four-star general in the room, who had both served much of their careers in STRATCOM. And so, I was able to turn to them every moment, every line, and say, Is this what I would do? What are the guardrails here? What is -- what's my range of behavior?
And just a question of making that language second nature for me, those guys were invaluable. I have to say too, impressive guys, really smart, serious guys who take their responsibilities very seriously.
COLLINS: Well, and Kathryn Bigelow, I mean, I think she's a genius. So, I'm not surprised you said yes, so quickly.
But in terms of how she was talking about this, like, this is a real threat, there are nations with nuclear weapons. I mean, we've talked about this. But her point was kind of that we don't talk about it enough. And I wonder if it put it in perspective for you, in a new way that maybe you didn't think about before.
LETTS: Yes, sure. Well, I mean, we had that period in the 60s with Dr. Strangelove and Fail Safe. And then in the 80s, we covered this material a lot with Testament, and Threads, and The Day After, was especially a big deal as a -- as a point of discussion.
But Kathryn just felt that as a subject, it's kind of fallen off the table, at a time when the world has just gotten increasingly volatile. And there is some new information in this movie, or at least it was new to me, in terms of the number of countries, the number of weapons that are out there, and just how our system functions.
[21:50:00]
It seems like we have built a machine over a number of years, we have constructed this machine with all these moving parts. And if it all works well? The end result is the end of civilization. So maybe it's time to reconsider the concept of that machine.
COLLINS: I think this movie will certainly do that. I can say, my heart was beating so fast, watching -- watching this movie.
Tracy Letts, you're excellent in it, and thank you for being gracious enough to join us tonight.
For everyone else who is intrigued, "A House of Dynamite" plays in select theaters right now. It's streaming on Netflix, on October 24th.
Thank you so much, Tracy.
LETTS: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: So great to have you.
Up next here for us. We're going to give you our weekly behind the scenes look at what was a pivotal week in Washington. You won't want to miss this one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: We got an update from the White House, late tonight, on President Trump's visit to Walter Reed Military Medical Center today for his checkup. It's a letter from the President's physician that notes his unusual second visit to Walter Reed. That's because he got his annual physical, back in April, raising the question of why he was going again, six months later.
This letter says it was, quote, "Part of an ongoing health maintenance plan" for the President, and also reveals that ahead of his trip to the Middle East this weekend, the President received his annual flu shot and a COVID-19 vaccine booster. The White House physician says in this letter that the President's cardiac age is estimated to be 14 years younger than his actual age. And before concluding, it says that the President, quote, "Continues to maintain a demanding daily schedule without restriction."
That's the update on the medical front tonight.
Speaking of this week at the White House. It was week two of the government shutdown. There was an escalating fight over sending National Guard troops to American cities. And also, of course, the monumental peace deal in the Middle East, the ceasefire that is now in place.
And this is our look at behind the scenes this week in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: The Democrats have put a lot of people in great risk and jeopardy.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, October 6.
COLLINS: The President said yesterday that Democrats will be to blame if federal workers lose their jobs. Wouldn't that be the President's call to lay people off?
LEAVITT: These conversations about layoffs would not be happening in the White House today, if not for the Democrat shutdown.
COLLINS: The White House has been blasting a federal judge, who stepped in, over the weekend, and temporarily blocked President Trump from deploying any of the National Guard, under his control, into the State of Oregon.
Voice of MICHAEL WILLIAMS, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: She's been praised by both Democrats and Republican members of Congress.
COLLINS: It was reported by Axios, over the weekend, that you had a call with Prime Minister Netanyahu, where you told him to stop being so negative and to take the win when it came to Hamas' response to that. Is that true?
TRUMP: No, it's not true.
COLLINS: And what else did you say to them?
TRUMP: He's been very positive on the deal. Everybody is.
COLLINS: The Supreme Court is back in session. They rejected today an appeal, by Ghislaine Maxwell, to overturn her conviction.
Her only chance at getting out of prison is a pardon from you.
TRUMP: I wouldn't consider it or not consider. I don't know anything about it.
COLLINS: But she was convicted of child sex trafficking.
TRUMP: Yes, I mean, I'm going to have to take a look at it. I'd have to ask DOJ.
COLLINS: The White House plan would slash NASA's science funding by nearly half.
You're here fighting for this, because you really believe that this would be detrimental, if this -- if this goes through.
BILL NYE, THE SCIENCE GUY: Oh, man. If we cut science budget in half? That's pretty much ending it. You can't restart these things.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, October 7.
TRUMP: There are some people that really don't deserve to be taken care of, and we'll take care of them in a different way.
COLLINS: When the President was asked whether or not everyone who is furloughed would get back pay, he basically said that some likely will, and some potentially won't.
Federal workers, who have nothing to do with what's happening between Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill. They're caught in the middle of this. Why should they have to suffer and not get their back pay?
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): The easiest way to make sure this is not a concern for any people, people who are working, or people who are furloughed, is for the Democrats to open the government.
COLLINS: You voted in 2019, that federal workers who are furloughed should get their back pay. So, why is your position different now?
JORDAN: It's not different now.
All I'm saying is most Americans say, If you're working, you should get paid. If you're not, that's a different question.
COLLINS: Attorney General Pam Bondi testified for more than four hours during a contentious hearing, here on Capitol Hill.
Would you like to respond to what the Attorney General was saying today?
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Her ducking, evading, avoiding answers.
I've never seen anything like it, in 15 years.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, October 8.
TRUMP: I was just given a note by the Secretary of State, saying that we're very close to a deal in the Middle East.
COLLINS: The President was in the middle of an event when Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, handed him a note. The President said that he believed they were getting very close to a deal on a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
The White House Press Secretary did put out a statement after that event.
He is considering travel to the Middle East in the coming days.
Good evening from the White House, where, behind me, President Trump has spent the evening on the phone, after announcing that Israel and Hamas have agreed to phase one of his peace deal.
What are you hearing from your sources tonight?
DAVID SANGER, POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: A remarkable day. A huge relief, if it works. We're on the brink of something big.
The question now is, can you turn a ceasefire and a prisoner release into a peace plan? And they're very different.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, October 9.
COLLINS: This is very much something that President Trump wants to be able to be in the Middle East for. All the really difficult issues that come, in addition to the release of those hostages, and the stopping of the attacks in Gaza.
[22:00:00]
Next week, if this shutdown is still underway, on October 15th, active-duty military service members are going to miss a paycheck.
If military members start to miss a paycheck, do you think that they're going to hold Democrats responsible?
SEN. RUBEN GALLEGO (D-AZ): I think they'd hold both of us responsible, Democrats and Republicans.
We're trying to find a solution that keeps government open, funds the things that we feel jointly we should be funding.
We're willing to negotiate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thank you so much for joining us every night on what was clearly a busy week. More to come. Thanks for joining us this evening though.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
