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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Commutes Sentence Of Former Rep. George Santos; Acosta Argued Federal Epstein Trial Would've Been A "Crapshoot"; Republicans Cast "No Kings" Protests As The "Hate America" Rally. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 17, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
STEPHANIE NOLEN, GLOBAL HEALTH REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: But you look at Somalia. This is a country whose total budget, last year, was $350 million. They just can't do it themselves.
COOPER: Yes.
Stephanie Nolen, so important reporting. I really appreciate you going there as well as those remarkable images from your photographer. Thank you.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight, President Trump handed a get-out- of-jail-free card, releasing George Santos from prison, years ahead of schedule.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Some breaking news, on this Friday night, as disgraced former Congressman George Santos is about to be a free man, and has President Trump to thank for that.
The President announcing during his flight to Florida this evening, that he is commuting George Santos' sentence, meaning that instead of seven years in prison, he's out after less than three months.
Santos became just the sixth person ever expelled from the House, before pleading ultimately guilty to charges of wire fraud and aggravated identity theft, which included, among other things, stealing from campaign donors and misusing campaign funds.
Santos is at least the 10th Republican lawmaker to either be pardoned or have his sentence commuted by President Trump. He lasted less than a year in Congress. But that was still long enough for the House Ethics Committee to find what they said was substantial evidence of wrongdoing.
Santos, however, offered a more colorful description of his time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE SANTOS, FORMER UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: I wasn't there to play nice. I was there to expose the rot and corruption, and I did, and I'm going to continue to do it. Republicans and Democrats alike, swampy, slimy people selling this country down a river.
ZIWE FUMUDOH, AMERICAN COMEDIAN AND WRITER: I would say that you are a messy bitch that lives for drama. True or false?
SANTOS: Ah, you can call me a messy bitch. I've been called worse. But I'll take it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Santos was serving out his sentence at a federal prison in New Jersey. But even before he surrendered, he had continued to lobby the President, for this very move.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANTOS: I am in the process of filling an application to a pardon for the President. I'll take a commutation, clemency, whatever the President is willing to give me.
And I would like to take all of the bad I've done, and transform it into a positive, even by being able to point out. I mean, who better, Piers, and President Trump, I hope he would agree, is to be able to sniff out other bad actors doing similar actions that I did? I mean, I understand it, I can help, I can be an asset for the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And this is how the President described George Santos, just two months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Boy.
ROB FINNERTY, NEWSMAX HOST: He just went away, seven years.
D. TRUMP: You know, he was -- he lied like hell, I mean, I have to tell you.
FINNERTY: Yes.
D. TRUMP: And I didn't know him, but he was a 100 percent for Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was on August 1st.
And in his post tonight, the President wrote, George Santos was somewhat of a 'rogue,' but there are many rogues throughout our Country that aren't forced to serve seven years in prison. At least Santos had the Courage, Conviction, and Intelligence to ALWAYS VOTE REPUBLICAN. George has been in solitary confinement for long stretches of time and, by all accounts, has been horribly mistreated. Therefore, I just signed a Commutation, releasing George Santos from prison, IMMEDIATELY. Good luck George, and have a great life, the President wrote.
I want to get straight to CNN Legal Analyst, Elliot Williams, who is here tonight.
Because Elliot, I think some people are going to look at this and say, OK, he was supposed to serve 87 months in prison. He was there just about three months. What do you make of his commutation tonight?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: A couple things, Kaitlan. And I'm disappointed that I was referred to as legal analyst, and not messy bitch that lives for drama. But what do I -- what do I--
COLLINS: I'll give you that because it's a Friday night.
WILLIAMS: What do--
COLLINS: I'll let you curse on TV because it's a Friday night.
WILLIAMS: It's Friday. Open collar, no tie.
But no -- no but -- Kaitlan, I think the problem is not George Santos here, and it's not even Donald Trump. It is the pardon power. And we, as a country, have really allowed presidents to run wild with this unrestricted power that they have, to exercise clemency.
President Trump is really doing and carrying out the power that the Constitution gives him, and generations of Congresses have not restricted. Until Congress reigns presidents in, we're going to keep seeing these exercises of clemency, who -- for people who really are not deserving.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, and I think that was the point so many people made, when President Biden issued all those pardons--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --on his way out the door when it comes to criticizing them.
Elliot, standby because I want to continue to talk to you about this.
But also, I am joined here tonight by a California Republican who voted to expel George Santos from the House. Congressman Kevin Kiley is here.
[21:05:00]
And Congressman, I mean, just the fact that you voted, with 310 members, 10 of your colleagues, to expel him from Congress. Do you believe that the three months he's served is long enough for the crimes that he pleaded guilty to?
REP. KEVIN KILEY (R-CA): Well, yes, I actually voted to expel Santos, not once, but twice. The first time it didn't pass, and then the second time it did. So, I have very little sympathy for him. He got to Congress, in the first place, by manipulating the political process and breaking laws.
But as Elliot said, I mean, this is a power that exists in the Constitution. It's sort of unique, because most other powers of one branch or another, there's an interplay of the branches, whereas the pardon power is an exclusive power, a unilateral power of the president. And I can assure you, you can look at the pardons that were granted by every president in modern history, Democrat or Republican, and you'd find cases that you found distasteful.
And so, the larger question of why the pardon power exists? I mean, the Framers put it in there for a reason. I tend to think the reason is that they recognize that we live in a world, in which men and women are imperfect, laws can never be perfect, and so it is helpful to have this sort of release valve, and there's no better place to vest it than in the executive. I think that's the reason they put it there. We can debate whether that was a good idea or a bad idea. But our Founders got a lot of things right. So that -- there's that to recommend it.
COLLINS: But do you think George Santos deserved to have his sentence commuted?
KILEY: Well, look, that's for the President to say. I think that it's really, and I don't know--
COLLINS: But I'm asking you, sir.
KILEY: Well, I don't know if I was able to look at all of the facts that the President had, as far as what's mitigating and what's not mitigating. I don't make it a practice of commenting on each individual pardon that a president grants, because I can assure you that in any individual case, I'd say, Well, no, this person did X, Y or Z, they shouldn't get out of prison early. But that's kind of inherent in the exercise of a pardon, is the person is being let out of prison early.
So, is it something I would have done? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have. But it's really an exclusive power of the president. And while Elliot said he'd like Congress to exercise oversight here, this is really the one area in which Congress doesn't have the power to exercise oversight.
COLLINS: Yes, I think everyone understands that. But you're not prepared to say tonight whether or not you think George Santos is deserving of this. I mean, we -- the President was just citing the fact that he's always voted Republican, as his justification for having him get out of prison.
KILEY: Yes, I think you could find probably a lot worse cases, like, if you go back to Marc Rich, who was pardoned at the end of Bill Clinton's term. He was a prominent Democrat donor. Joe Biden pardoned his own son. So, again, you could find plenty of cases in every administration, where you could look at a particular pardon, and say, I disagree with that, that's not what I would have done. But this is a power that the Founders decided to give the president, to exercise at his discretion.
I don't know what the President's particular reasons were, in this case, just like I don't know what Bill Clinton's particular reasons were in the case of Marc Rich. But it's the system that we have.
COLLINS: Yes, no one is disputing the President has the power to do this. I think the question was just whether or not you believed he should, since you voted to expel George Santos, as you noted, not once, but twice.
That comes as the government shutdown is underway. It's the, right now, the third longest government shutdown in modern history. Speaker Johnson said he fears it could be one of the longest in U.S. history.
And I wonder, as one of the few House Republicans who has been in their office at the Capitol, do you understand why the House is not in session?
KILEY: I don't. I would love for the House to be in session. I don't think there's any justification for the House being out of session.
And we just learned today that the House is going to be out of session for a fourth consecutive week. And it's important to note that this is a decision that's been made independently of the decision for the government to shut down. And I'm very much against the government being shut down.
I don't agree with Senator Schumer not passing the version of the continuing resolution that we passed in the House. It's having terrible ramifications for the country.
But all of that is not a reason to shut the House of Representatives down. That's a decision that the Speaker has made. And in addition to all of the things we're supposed to be doing, in terms of marking up legislation, in terms of oversight, it also makes it a lot harder for us to reach the sort of bipartisan agreement that's going to be necessary, to open the government again, if the House of Representatives isn't even there and is apparently just out indefinitely now.
COLLINS: Have you spoken to House Speaker Mike Johnson, directly, about your feelings that you think that y'all should be back in session?
KILEY: I've been in on a number of calls with him on the -- yes, and discussed these issues. Various members have brought these issues up to him as well.
I've, of course, commented publicly that the House should be brought back. It really isn't even something that we should have to advocate for. I mean, the House was supposed to be in session each of the last three weeks. It's supposed to be in session next week. [21:10:00]
We have scheduled district work weeks, which are very important. But that's not what these several weeks were. We had important things to take care of. Give you one example. I'm the Chair of the K-12 Education Subcommittee. We had a hearing that was supposed to happen a couple days ago on an important topic, Career Technical Education. I think it would have been a great hearing. Didn't happen because we weren't there.
And you can talk to any member on any committee. The House has its sort of ordinary business of the people it should be carrying out. And the fact that there's a government shutdown is not a reason to suddenly neglect all of that. Not to mention the fact that we have various appropriations bills we now need to pass.
COLLINS: Yes.
KILEY: Even if this seven-week CR were to become law, we've burned three of those weeks already.
COLLINS: Yes.
Congressman Kevin Kiley, we'll see when you are back in Washington. Thanks for joining us tonight.
KILEY: All right, you bet. Thanks.
COLLINS: And we have a lot of breaking news happening tonight. Not just George Santos being commuted.
We also have The Wall Street Journal reporting that the White House has now hired a former Trump campaign attorney, you might remember this name from 2020, Kurt Olsen. He actually worked on those efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. He's now been hired, in this administration, to investigate the President's 2020 election claims.
The Journal reports tonight that Olsen has already started asking for information from U.S. intelligence agencies, about the 2020 election, and talking about people that he wants to go after that he thinks are not loyal to the President.
I want to bring in my deeply-sourced White House insider, Shawn McCreesh from The New York Times.
Elliot Williams is also back here with us.
Shawn, I just wonder, like big picture, how you're looking at the Justice Department through your reporting these days, from one, Trump commuting George Santos' sentence. I don't think that that probably was at the pardon office to cite what the Congressman said there. Also the fact that they're hiring this attorney who was one of the kind of 2020 Stop the Steal efforts guys five years ago, and just everything that's been going on.
SHAWN MCCREESH, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I think, like everything with Trump, it comes down to his psychology.
So, I think with George Santos, two things are true. One is that a lot of people felt that the sentencing actually was a little too draconian, even though he was a total criminal.
But when Trump comes to believe that somebody is the victim of persecution by the state or the government, he sees himself in their story, and so he relates to it. It reminded me of how he talks about Bolsonaro, how he talks about Netanyahu, sometimes. And so, clearly, somebody got in his head that this guy got a raw deal. So he said, Screw it, I'm going to throw him a pardon.
And when you talk about this Wall Street Journal story, I think, again, it goes to Trump's psychology. There's just this piece of him that cannot leave well enough alone.
And it reminded me of something he said when we were at the White House, last week, I think it was. He was actually saying that he won the 2024 election by bigger margins than he was being given credit for.
And so, as long as this piece of him exists, where he just can't accept the win? There will always be sort of dangerous quacks like this Ken (ph) Olsen person around in his orbit.
COLLINS: Well, and I was just thinking, yes, if he's asking around about the election and whatnot.
And also with George Santos, one thing we do know is that Marjorie Taylor Greene had been pushing for that and basically saying there's people in Congress -- members of Congress who have done far worse, and that, you know, he's in prison.
And also, Trump was bringing up Senator Richard Blumenthal, and him misrepresenting his military service, something we actually talked to the Senator about. I mean, that happened 15 years ago, in a Senate race.
MCCREESH: Yes.
COLLINS: And he talked about it at the time, acknowledged that he misrepresented it. But Trump was essentially saying that, because of that, George Santos didn't belong in prison.
MCCREESH: Yes, the Blumenthal thing was sort of a weird detour. But I just love how Trump called him something of a rogue in the post, as if he's in this great tradition of American scofflaws, like something out of Mark Twain.
And I actually had a drink with George Santos shortly before he went in. He threw this little party in New York, and he was trying to put a brave face on it. But I could tell, that guy was scared. So, he must be very grateful to Marjorie Taylor Greene tonight.
COLLINS: Wow, that's actually so interesting.
MCCREESH: Yes.
COLLINS: He threw a party before he went to prison?
MCCREESH: He threw a party because he was launching this podcast, basically, ostensibly, was the reason for the party. But it was really like a going-away party. And his friends and his husband were there, and he was trying to act like everything was going to be OK, but he seemed very shaken up.
COLLINS: Elliot, I'm going to guess, you were not invited to George Santos' going-away party.
But Elliot, I do want to ask you on a serious note, because as we're looking at this. So we have The Wall Street Journal hiring or -- reporting that Kurt Olsen has been hired as a special government employee. So he can't be there that long. We'll see what that means. I mean, that's what Elon Musk was, for people who are curious with that term.
WILLIAMS: Right.
COLLINS: Also tonight, CNN has confirmed that the interim U.S. Attorney over in the Eastern District of Virginia, Lindsey Halligan, who is the one who led the indictment for James Comey and Tish James, she has ousted more senior prosecutors from that office. And a source tells us that she believed two of those senior prosecutors who were out, Beth Yusi and Kristin Bird, were leaking unauthorized information to the press.
What do you make of that?
WILLIAMS: So, a few things.
[21:15:00]
With respect to the 2020 retread. Most -- virtually every legal issue around the 2020 election has been well trod, through litigation across the country. And so, whatever the President and his folks are looking for ought to be beyond any of us, and it really is, as it's been said here, a bit of a retribution campaign.
Now, with respect to the Eastern District of Virginia, that prosecutor's office. There's a process for terminating employees, who have broken or violated some of their Employee Conduct Guidelines. If they were impermissibly providing information to the media or whatever else. There's a way to deal with that, through HR or whatever else.
Now, it's clear, based on what we've seen, that the U.S. attorney, Lindsey Halligan, is consolidating power in the office. This should shock no one, at this point, and I'm quite certain that these are not the last folks to be terminated.
COLLINS: But she -- correct me if I'm wrong, Elliot -- she will not be there unless she's confirmed to that position. What's the time period on that again? WILLIAMS: It's -- oh gosh, I want to say a 100 and -- I think 210 days, but I don't know off the top of my head. It's not long. It's not forever. And this has come up in a few other offices, New Jersey being another one--
COLLINS: Yes.
WILLIAMS: --in which, someone can serve in a limited in an acting capacity for a set period of days, and then they have to go.
Now, President Trump has found ways to get his folks in these positions. And quite frankly, I'm curious as to how they'll figure out another way to circumvent the rules to get their preferred candidate in there. The way to fix this is appoint someone to the role, have the Senate have an up or down vote on the candidate, and in a manner that this has worked, quite frankly, since the founding of the nation.
COLLINS: Yes.
WILLIAMS: That hasn't been good enough, because--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Well--
WILLIAMS: --fit for the roles.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, Trump did that, and then he ousted the person who had gotten confirmed by the Senate.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: So, we'll see what this 120 days means for her.
Elliot Williams. Shawn McCreesh. Great to have both of you here on this Friday night. Thank you so much.
WILLIAMS: You bet.
COLLINS: Up next. I have new reporting about what was a frank and, what we were told, uncomfortable meeting, at times today, between President Trump and President Zelenskyy, as Trump is now coming out saying this is what he thinks should happen next in this war.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: I have new reporting from what happened behind closed doors, with President Trump and President Zelenskyy, during their hours-long meeting today, that ended with the President calling for a ceasefire again, and providing no new weapons that Ukraine was seeking.
Sources described today's White House meeting as tense, frank and at times uncomfortable, according to the reporting from me and my colleague, Kristen Holmes. After that meeting ended, we saw the President come out and call on Russia and Ukraine to stop the war at its current battle lines.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: They should stop the war immediately. You go by the battle line, wherever it is. Otherwise, it's too complicated. You'll never be able to figure it out. You stop at the battle line, and both sides should go home, go to their families, stop the killing, and that should be it. Stop right now at the battle line. I told that to President Zelenskyy. I told it to President Putin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Zelenskyy tonight, said that he agrees when it comes to a ceasefire, as he made clear that Ukraine still wants these long-range missiles that can reach deep into Russia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: I think we have to stop where we are, and he is -- he is right. President is right. And we have to stop where we are. This is important to stop where we are, and then to speak.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: One person who described the President's thinking on that meeting said that both sides need to make a deal, and argued the conditions are only going to get worse as winter approaches, and basically said the President's belief here is that Ukraine wants to prolong this war. That is the President's thinking.
And if this feels like a big turn from where Trump was? It is. Because he's now calling for the battle lines to stay exactly where they are now, after three weeks ago, declaring that he thought Ukraine could fight and win back all of its territory, in its original form, with the help of Europe and NATO.
This change of heart is after Trump's eighth phone call in eight months that he's had with Russia's president, Vladimir Putin. And you can't forget, of course, that meeting they had in Alaska that failed to bring the two sides closer to any kind of ceasefire or end of this war.
And the reality of the President's new proposal to stop this war is significant. The difference between where these battle lines are now, and each country's original borders, about the size of Pennsylvania, more than 3 million people would go from being citizens of Ukraine to Russia.
President Trump's new position that both countries should stop where they are marks only the latest in his ever-shifting positions on this war. It's a shift you can track from earlier this afternoon, late this summer, and when he returned to the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: A few weeks ago in New York, when you two met, you said that you think Ukraine could ultimately take back all the territory that it's lost so far. Do you still think that's the case, or do you think there'll have to be some sort of swap of territory?
D. TRUMP: You never know. Look, you know war is very interesting. You never know, do you? You just never know with war. War and peace. But you never know.
We're going to change the lines, the battle lines. Russia has occupied a big portion of Ukraine. They've occupied some very prime territory. We're going to try and get some of that territory back for Ukraine.
You're playing cards..
ZELENSKYY: I'm very serious. I'm the president in a war.
D. TRUMP: You're gambling with the lives of millions of people.
ZELENSKYY: You think--
D. TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What you're -- what you're speaking about--
D. TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What are you speaking about?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight is David Remnick, the longtime Editor of The New Yorker, and host of The New Yorker Radio Hour.
And it's so great to have you here.
Because I just wonder, when you look at what you heard from the President today, compared to what he said three weeks ago, what you think has changed the President's mind now?
[21:25:00]
DAVID REMNICK, EDITOR, THE NEW YORKER, HOST, THE NEW YORKER RADIO HOUR: Well, with this president, so much is personal, so much is improvised, that it's very hard to say. I mean, we want to put our very logical lenses on these things, and analyze them very seriously. But I think that's kind of impossible.
Look at what happened with the Middle East. In February, last February, President Trump was saying that Gaza should maybe become depopulate -- you know, depopulate itself of Palestinians, and become a kind of Riviera of the Middle East. And this inflamed the annexationist impulses of the far-right. It did a lot of damage.
And then we've come to this point where we are now, and we've just kind of declared peace, and we have a ceasefire, and thank God for that. And it's great that the -- it's wonderful that the hostages have been released, and the firing -- bombardment has stopped. But peace has not, in our time, come quite yet.
And when it comes to Ukraine and Russia, we have even less leverage, and we have to look at the terrible damage that's going on there. Hundreds of thousands of people on both sides have died, and President Putin shows no sign of relenting in any which way.
And meanwhile, the President of the United States behaves in this kind of rhetorically erratic way, and very often humiliates the one hero in the picture, who is the President of Ukraine. It's very, very hard to read. And to think we can with any exactitude, I think is an illusion.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, he said that three weeks ago. Then he sounded open to giving them these Tomahawk missiles that Ukraine very much wants.
They're made by Raytheon. They were meeting with Raytheon executives in Washington, while the President was there. And then he goes into this meeting so clearly, wanting that.
But it was clear after Trump's phone call with Putin yesterday that this was not likely going to happen.
I want you to hear what Zelenskyy said today, about these missiles that he's asking for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are you more or less optimistic that you are going to get those Tomahawks?
ZELENSKYY: I am realistic.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, he's laughing there. I wonder what you made of that.
REMNICK: He knows he's not getting them. He knows he's not getting them.
The one difference between this meeting and the dramatic meeting in February is there was no public humiliation. That was one of the most cringe-making horrific diplomatic events in the recent history of the United States. It was just terrible to see the humiliation of a heroic figure, a figure that's fighting for the freedom and independence of his own people, and for Europe as well, to be humiliated by the President of the United States. Today, this took place in private.
I mean, I am -- I am glad the administration is engaged in both this issue and the Middle East. But the nature of the engagement is so erratic, and so personally tinged, and so, you know, it's filled with the language of salesmanship and personal relationships. And If you declare peace, you have peace. That's an illusion.
These settlements come hard, traditionally. And just because Donald Trump thinks he is gifted with magic? He has discovered that he not only can't solve this in one day. It's now eight months, and thousands and thousands of people are dying every week. So, it's an extremely difficult spectacle to witness.
COLLINS: Well, I think the part of his statement that stood out the most to me was he said, Let them -- let both sides declare victory and let history be the decider here. I mean, saying that ahead of a potential meeting with--
REMNICK: I don't know what that means--
COLLINS: --with Putin is something.
REMNICK: I just don't know what that means. It might not mean anything to President Trump, in terms of territory and many, many thousands of people who would be on one side of the border or another, and whose fates would be decided. But it certainly means a lot to the Ukrainians.
The terrible tragedy here is this has gone on for so long that we must remember that -- it's a miracle that Ukraine is even in this fight at all. They have lost so many young men. They've lost so much infrastructure. So many villages and cities have been either razed.
We look -- we look at Gaza, and we see in a very compact area, just an absolute devastation, but spread out over a much bigger landscape.
In Ukraine, there's horrific damage, both in human terms and in terms of the infrastructure in Ukraine. It's going to take a very long time, and a great deal of support for that country to make its way back. And yet, they have fought so heroically, and that can't be underestimated. And not only for themselves, but on behalf of what -- you know, the Free World. And it's an astonishing, astonishing thing.
[21:30:00]
And I just wish for President's rhetoric and his engagement with Ukraine was more serious and more sympathetic.
COLLINS: David Remnick, it's always great to have you. I know The New Yorker Festival is coming up. I can't wait for that. Thank you for joining me tonight.
REMNICK: Thanks so much, Kaitlan. It's good to see you.
COLLINS: Up next here for us. There is a new transcript that is out tonight, where the former Labor Secretary, under President Trump, from his first term, he's now defending his role in that controversial sweetheart deal that Jeffrey Epstein got. My source tonight is a member of the House Oversight Committee who interviewed Alex Acosta.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, Alex Acosta, who was President Trump's former Labor Secretary from his first term, is defending that controversial plea deal that he secured for Jeffrey Epstein, as a U.S. attorney, back in 2008.
In newly-released transcripts of his testimony before the House Oversight Committee on Capitol Hill, Acosta disputed the claims that he gave Epstein, a serial sex abuser, a sweetheart deal.
He argued instead that it would have been risky to take the case to federal trial, telling lawmakers, and I'm quoting Alex Acosta now, "Ultimately, the trial was a crapshoot, and we just wanted the guy to go to jail... If we go to trial and we roll the dice and we do the crapshoot and we lose, what kind of signal does that send? That says that he got away with it, that you can do that more."
Epstein only ultimately served 13 months in prison for state prostitution charges, over his involvement with underage girls, and then he walked free. His crimes were buried for years, until a 2016 book by James Patterson, John Connolly, and Tim Malloy came out and took a second look at all of this. And then, of course, that bombshell Miami Herald investigation in 2018 described what Austin gave -- Acosta gave Epstein as the deal of a lifetime.
My source tonight is the Democratic congresswoman, Yassamin Ansari, a member of the House Oversight Committee.
And it's great to have you here, Congresswoman.
Because you had the chance to hear from him firsthand. And so, obviously, we can read the transcript. We can see how this plays out on paper. I wonder what your takeaway was from being inside the room.
REP. YASSAMIN ANSARI (D-AZ): Thank you so much for having me.
The entirety of the interview with Alex Acosta felt like a deflection as opposed to accountability. My main takeaway from that experience was that this is somebody who feels zero remorse about the sweetheart plea deal that he gave to Jeffrey Epstein.
Hearing him talk about the fact that he thought the case would be a quote-unquote, "Crapshoot," is so outrageous, and so ridiculous, and so disparaging, to the victims of Jeffrey Epstein, the more than 30 victims who at the time, were at the table, telling their stories, credible witnesses on this.
So this is, you know, this is somebody who feels zero remorse, who doesn't understand the gravity of the situation, and is clearly engaged in a coverup, and just continue to deflect every time he was asked questions about it. His job, as a U.S. attorney, is not to determine, whether or not he feels what the, you know, what the trial will look like. If you think that the crimes are worthy of federal charges, he should have taken those forward.
And it is unacceptable that Jeffrey Epstein got such a deal where he was -- he had limited confinement, he got work release. And during that time, he abused and raped so many other girls.
We actually heard from one of those victims who, for the first time, came forward, sat with us, Oversight committee members, and Mike Johnson. Speaker Mike Johnson was in the room for this as well. And she talked about how there was a fake company created, where she was abused by Epstein during that 13-month period.
So, this entire thing is outrageous. And Alex Acosta in all of this, he just -- he was not a credible witness.
COLLINS: I mean, yes, to hear about that. Because I say that he served 13 months. I mean, you make a great point about what those 13 months actually looked like. It wasn't a regular 13 months behind bars.
And part of what Alex Acosta said to y'all that stood out to us was about the victims, and their statements, and how he thought that would have impacted the case. And I want to quote from his testimony. He said, quote, "Many victims refused to testify. Many victims had changing stories. All of us understood why they had changing stories, but they did. And defense counsel would have -- cross-examination would have been withering."
I mean, what does that say to you about how he was viewing the case when it comes to those victims?
ANSARI: It's clear that he was not -- he did not want to take this case seriously, he did not want to prosecute. Did not want federal charges against Acosta (ph), and the real question is why. Those are a lot of the questions that we asked over and over and over again. Why, why, why did you not recommend federal charges and let the process play out?
He would, of course, disparage the victims, question their credibility, which hearing from those victims myself, I think, it's sickening, it's disgusting, it's outrageous. Those victims believe that, Jeffrey Epstein, of course, got a sweetheart deal. But yes, the circumstances of this 13-month sentence was a joke. I mean, it's a complete and utter joke. He continued to abuse and rape so many other women after that.
[21:40:00]
And the other notable piece in all of this is through some of the documents that we have been able to get from the Department of Justice, through the Oversight Committee subpoena, demonstrate that so many of these rich and powerful men, whether it be Elon Musk, Steven Thiel (ph), Steve Bannon -- Peter Thiel, I apologize, Steve Bannon and others, even after Jeffrey Epstein was a convicted predator and sex trafficker and child abuser, still continued to meet with him, to want to visit Epstein Island, to engage with him. And so, the coverup is just so extreme.
And, at this point, there is no excuse, no excuse, for the Trump White House continuing to cover this up. And partial transparency is no longer acceptable. We need the full files immediately. COLLINS: Yes. And, of course, there was no evidence about those people you mentioned connected to the sex trafficking aspect of this. But obviously, the questions have been raised by those connections.
Congresswoman Ansari, thank you for joining us tonight.
ANSARI: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: Coming up here. There is a "No Kings" protest that is supposed to happen this weekend, throughout the country, with thousands of anti-Trump protests happening, going on. Hear what the President has to say about it next.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, ahead of the nationwide "No Kings" 2 protest this weekend, the Department of Homeland Security is warning police about the potential for violence.
There was a DHS intelligence report, that was obtained by CNN, that does not indicate officials are aware of any specific or credible threats. But it comes as the "No Kings" organizers say, they are expecting more than 2,500 protests against the Trump administration across the country tomorrow. That's hundreds more than what we saw back in June. They were overwhelmingly peaceful, back then.
The "No Kings" protests were originally organized to counter Trump's military parade that happened in Washington at the time. And now, the President's opponents are gathering amid rising anger, over his administration's ICE raids that have been taking place throughout the country, the push to deploy the National Guard to American cities.
And this is what the President had to say about his critics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: A king. This -- this is not a king.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's more than that.
D. TRUMP: You know, they're saying, they're referring to me as a king. I'm not a king.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight is the retired Major General Randy Manner, who was the number two general officer in the National Guard Bureau at the Pentagon.
And it's great to have you.
Because you're actually planning to speak at a "No Kings" rally in Alexandria, Virginia. Why is that important to you? And what do you plan to say?
MAJ. GEN. RANDY MANNER (RET.), FORMER ACTING VICE CHIEF, NATIONAL GUARD BUREAU: It's very important for all Americans to be able to stand up for our First Amendment rights, to be able to say what we feel, respectfully and peacefully.
I took the oath of office as an officer in the military, on 10 separate occasions, when I entered the military, as well as, of course, during for each promotion, to be able to uphold the Constitution. And that is what I intended to do -- I intend to do and to continue to do.
So, it's important, whether you are on the right, the center, or the left, we all have the right to be able to speak up peaceably to exercise our First Amendment rights, and that's what I'll be talking about tomorrow.
COLLINS: We've gotten a lot of reaction from Republicans on this, including from the House Speaker, Mike Johnson, and some other top Republicans.
I want you to hear how they have described what's going to happen tomorrow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Hate America rally.
REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): Hate America rally.
JOHNSON: Hate America rally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We call it the Hate America rally.
SCOTT BESSENT, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: The farthest left, the hardest core, the most unhinged in the Democratic Party.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): This will be a Soros paid-for protest, where his professional protesters show up.
JOHNSON: It's all the pro-Hamas wing and the, you know, the Antifa people, they're all coming out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I wonder, as someone who has spent nearly four decades serving this country, what you make of some of those Republicans saying that this is not American, that it's about Hate America, and linking this to Antifa and Hamas.
MANNER: First of all, those are absolutely total lies. Those are the words of dictators and people who want to stay in power, and to suppress the First Amendment rights that we all should enjoy as Americans.
And not only is it absolutely offending -- offended to -- offending to every single American. It's personally offending to me and to my family, and my father, and my son, all of us, and my grandfather, who fought in World War II, all of us in the military, who have stood up and been in combat. All of us. To be able to say, You have the right to speak up as an American in a peaceful manner, to exercise, again, the First Amendment right. Not the 23rd or the 40th or the 110th. It's the First Amendment right.
And we need to be proud that in the United States, we do not at all rule from fear or force. It is all about the concepts of liberty, and being able to speak up, when you disagree with the policies of those that are elected above us.
COLLINS: Yes.
Major General Randy Manner, I know you're planning to speak tomorrow. Thank you for taking the time to come on and join with us tonight about what you're planning to say.
MANNER: Thank you so very much.
COLLINS: Up next here. We have quite a behind the scenes for you this week. From Tel Aviv to Washington. You don't want to miss it.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: An emotional hostage release, a heated government shutdown town hall, and a White House meeting with Ukraine's president. From Tel Aviv to Washington, here's our behind the scenes look at a very busy week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
D. TRUMP: This took 3,000 years to get to this point.
COLLINS: President Trump--
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, October 13.
COLLINS: For the first time in two years, there are no living hostages in the hands of Hamas. This ceasefire that has been brokered is holding for now. And today, we've seen the release of 20 Israeli hostages who are still alive and being held in Gaza.
For 737 days, families have gathered here in what is known now as Hostage Square, ever since October 7th, bringing awareness to their loved ones who were kidnapped into Gaza, on that tragic day.
What will it be like to not have to wear a shirt with your brother-in- law's face on it?
MOSHE LAVI, OMRI MIRAN'S BROTHER-IN-LAW: I really can't wait to put this in the archive of our family. It became part of our identity. In the past two years, I've been introducing myself, My name is Moshe Lavi, I'm the brother-in-law from Omri Miran. This was my name.
D. TRUMP: After years of suffering and bloodshed, the war in Gaza is over.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, October 14.
D. TRUMP: The Democrats are getting killed on the shutdown because we're closing up programs that are Democrat programs, and they're never going to come back, in many cases.
COLLINS: President Trump, who is fresh off his return from a whirlwind trip overseas, flew right back to a government shutdown, here at home.
You're acknowledging that what the Trump administration just pulled in funding is hurting your state?
SEN. TIM SHEEHY (R-MT): Well, I think the reality is we wouldn't be here if the government was still open.
COLLINS: Well actually, Chris Wright, the Energy Secretary, he said, they would have done that even if the government wasn't shut down.
SHEEHY: Well, it's unfortunate we're still shut down.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, October 15.
D. TRUMP: As far as the shutdown is concerned, this is a Democrat Schumer shutdown.
COLLINS: North of 10,000 federal jobs could be eliminated during this government shutdown. The President was blaming this again on Democrats, as the White House has been banking on the fact that their messaging is winning here, and that eventually the American voters will blame Democrats.
Screen here.
Welcome to CNN's Town Hall with Independent Senator, Bernie Sanders, and Democratic Representative, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
As the shutdown enters its third week, there are still no signs of a deal, here in Washington.
(APPLAUSE)
COLLINS: Thank you so much.
Do you think by Thanksgiving, the government could still be shut down?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I would certainly hope not.
I'm ready to negotiate. Bernie's ready to negotiate.
They won't even pick up the phone.
If I were Mike Johnson, you should be in that office negotiating with Hakeem Jeffries every damn day.
Any day that you don't do that is a failure.
COLLINS: There was a senior Democratic aide who told CNN last week that Democrats won't back down on their demands here short of, quote, Planes falling out of the sky.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): That's obviously unacceptable.
If there was ever a time in American history when we have got to stand up and fight for working families, fight to prevent authoritarianism taking place in this country, this is the moment.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, October 16.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Mr. President, John Bolton was just indicted by a grand jury in Maryland. Do you have a reaction to that?
D. TRUMP: I didn't know that. You told me for the first time. But I just think he's a bad person.
COLLINS: In his first reaction to his indictment, John Bolton says he is the victim of the very thing that President Trump has spent years complaining about. The weaponization of the Justice Department. Except this time, John Bolton says it's his former boss' Justice Department that is doing precisely that to him.
When your father retook office, he said he wanted to be the first crypto president.
How do you draw the line between what he does as President, and what your family does as business?
ERIC TRUMP, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION: Well, I think you know me well enough to know that I stay the hell out of Washington, D.C., and I always have.
My father is winning the race, and he's winning it for America, and I'm incredibly proud of that, because this just is the future of banking. It's the future of finance.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Friday, October 17.
COLLINS: This comes off the heels of the President's trip to the Middle East. He believes that he ended that war there. And now he's turning his eyes to the next one that he is hoping to end, which is Russia's war in Ukraine.
D. TRUMP: To the best of my knowledge, we've never had a president that solved one war. It will be a great honor to get it done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: It was quite a week. Thank you so much for joining us tonight and every night.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
