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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
GOP Sen. Hawley Pushes Standalone Bill To Fund SNAP; Johnson Says He Talked To Trump About Third Term, But Sees No Path; Putin Touts Long-Range Missile Test Amid Diplomatic Breakdown. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 28, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: In addition, I'm starting a weekly companion show called All There Is Live. It's going to be live streamed on our community page, every Thursday night, 09:15 p.m. I hope you join us for that. The first one is in two days, on Thursday. We can come together there, talk about grief and not feel so alone in it. All of it is at CNN.com/AllThereIs.
That's it for me. The news continues. I'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, there are new signs of cracks growing in the Republican Party, as a handful of lawmakers are now confronting the House Speaker Mike Johnson over his shutdown strategy.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
It has been 28 days since the federal government shut down. And with each day that is passing without action from elected leaders, more and more Americans are feeling the pain of that shutdown.
That pain was pretty evident, when you look at this pay stub that an air traffic controller actually got today. You can see there, the amount is a grand total of $0. Imagine seeing that and still being told that you have to show up for work.
Compare the long hours that air traffic controllers have been putting in, under intense stress, and as you just saw there, now no pay, to what is happening with the House of Representatives, which has not been in regular session in over a month.
As House Speaker Mike Johnson defended that today and argued, there's actually a lot happening behind the scenes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): And here in Washington, the work has gone on in earnest as well. People keep commenting to me, You look so tired on TV. I am so tired because we're not sleeping a lot. We're working overtime. Here in Washington, our House committees have continued to conference together, and do all the work we can, to ensure legislation is ready for the floor, for action, as soon as we get back to legislative session. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But there are House Republicans who disagree with that strategy, and they are making their frustrations in public -- quite public, perhaps none more so than Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.
She posted this, after a conference call that happened today, among House Republicans, this morning, saying that she, quote, "Demanded to know from Speaker Johnson what the Republican plan for healthcare is to build the off-ramp off Obamacare and the ACA tax credits to make health insurance affordable for Americans. Johnson said he's got ideas and pages of policy ideas and committees of jurisdiction are working on it, but" she says, quote, "He refused to give one policy proposal to our GOP conference on our own conference call."
That sounds similar to what we heard from the House Speaker, here on THE SOURCE, just last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: If the government reopened tonight, would Republicans have a plan to address the Obamacare subsidies?
JOHNSON: Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We have proposals to--
COLLINS: You would have a plan tonight?
JOHNSON: Yes, we could have that ready immediately, yes.
COLLINS: OK. But a proposal's different than a plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Marjorie Taylor Greene's response today, as she went on, said, quote, "Apparently I have to go into a SCIF to find out the Republican healthcare plan."
A SCIF is typically where lawmakers view classified and sensitive information.
But when I say tonight that more Americans are feeling the pain of what's happening in Washington, I mean a lot more.
42 million people, which is about one in eight Americans, are on the verge of losing access to food stamps tonight. It is an unprecedented situation in which food stamps are not going to be issued in the month of November, should nothing change in Washington. Now, keep in mind, when you hear that number, about 39 percent of food stamp recipients are children, based on the data from 2023, 20 percent of them are elderly, and 10 percent are people who have a disability.
Senator Susan Collins, today, she's the Chair of the Appropriations Committee, which is noteworthy here, she's arguing that the administration could dip into emergency funds that they have, to keep that crucial food assistance program funded. But she says the decision not to is being made by the White House.
And it is the same budget office, of course, which is headed by the same Budget Director, who was also there, during the last government shutdown, when President Trump was in office during his first term, when they said that they could guarantee food stamps would be put out and would happen.
Now, given the stakes of this, we are hearing from a number of Senate Republicans tonight, who say they want Democrats to vote to reopen the government. But because of what's been going on, they have signed on to a standalone bill that would take the choice out of the administration's hands and fund the SNAP program throughout the shutdown.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): This is Congress' fault, not his fault. This is Congress' fault. So, when it comes to SNAP, the only solution here is we need to appropriate the money. I mean, that, even if he could put a Band-Aid on it, it would not -- he couldn't pay all of it. So, we need to appropriate the money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My congressional source tonight is one of that bill's Republican co-sponsors. Ohio senator, Bernie Moreno.
And thank you sir for being here.
Obviously, we heard what your colleague just said there about the importance of this and how it could be in your hands. Speaker Johnson said the bill that you're co-sponsoring is a waste of time, in his view. Is he wrong?
SEN. BERNIE MORENO (R-OH): Well, the more intelligent thing to do is what should have been done 28 days ago, which is not let the government shut down.
We gave them a clean continuing resolution, their budget that they voted for 13 times in a row. I don't think there's ever been even thought of a government shutdown when the majority party offers the minority party their budget. So, we should just have five Democrats that come to their senses and open the government.
But Kaitlan, what I'm not going to do, and what Republicans will not allow to happen, is for women and children, elderly, the disabled, to go hungry. That's going to happen on Friday, and that's on Chuck Schumer.
The Democrats need to regain their humanity. They need to reopen this government, and get this done. It's disgusting that they're allowing this to happen. It's disgusting that they allow illegal aliens to have a priority over American citizens, and that's what this shutdown, ultimately, is all about. COLLINS: Well, and just to be clear, if this bill that you're co- sponsoring pass, it would basically mean that even if the government is shut down, people who have food stamp benefits would still be able to get them, despite what's happening in Washington.
But didn't the Vice President argue at your lunch today, that they don't want to see one-off bills that fund things like SNAP, because their argument is it takes the pressure off Democrats to reopen the government?
MORENO: Well, I think we should reinstitute the SNAP program. I think we should pay government workers. I think we should bring furloughed workers back. I think we should open departments that should be available to taxpayers, like parks.
You know what that all is? That's in our continuing resolution. Let's just have the Democrats vote. We're 55 out of a 100 senators that want the government to reopen. After four weeks, all it takes is five Democrats to, again, regain their humanity. I don't know how they can talk to air traffic controllers and members of the military, and know that as a result of their inaction, that their families are going to suffer.
They were supposed to be the party of working Americans. Look what they're doing. They're destroying working families, and why? Because, again, they want to give preference to illegal aliens. It's totally crazy.
But, again, this thing happens Friday. They can vote on it tomorrow. They can vote on it, Thursday. I think there could be five Democrats out there that finally come to their senses.
COLLINS: OK, but I just want to follow up, because on that, Senator Hawley, who put forward this bill, says he agrees with you that Democrats should reopen the government.
But he said in an Op-Ed today, and I'm quoting him, that if that can't be done, that Congress, at the very least, needs to pass my bill to ensure food assistance continues uninterrupted.
If you agree with that, doesn't that mean you disagree with the House Speaker Mike Johnson and the Vice President?
MORENO: Look, all of us have the same goal, which is to get these programs funded. We don't want to put families in these situations. We don't want to put workers in this situation.
I co-sponsored that bill, with Josh Hawley, so that speaks for itself. I can't sit by and have people call me, and tell me, Look, I've been in the military for 14 years. I served the country. I said -- I signed up to protect and defend America. I just want my elected leaders to protect and defend them, but not from enemies with bullets, but to be able to pay them. That's a very low standard. That's a very low standard that we're being held to.
And I think this is totally ridiculous. As you know, Kaitlan, I'm new to this place. This is no way to run any organization. When you have Democrats saying, this is giving them leverage or this is good for them? They know that suffering is going to happen.
I had one colleague that said, Well, I can't afford to go without a paycheck, in reference to my Shutdown Act bill, which would actually dock their pay. I can't go without money. But they have no problem having millions of government employees go without their paycheck? This place does something to you that's not right.
And look, we got to do the right thing one way or the other. However we get to that result, I'm in for that. But I'm not going to put up--
COLLINS: Yes, but is your--
MORENO: --with people suffering.
COLLINS: Is your argument that, if -- I mean, obviously, there's been no momentum on reopening the government right now. You are signing on to this bill. So presumably, you'd vote for it if it came up for a vote. You want to see Leader Thune put this bill on the floor, so at least SNAP benefits, and people who get them don't have to go without them, while Republicans and Democrats are fighting in D.C.
MORENO: Look, I voted for Ron Johnson's bill to prevent shutdowns from happening in the first place. I think he's right.
COLLINS: But on the SNAP -- on the SNAP bill specifically, you want that brought for a vote, right?
MORENO: Let's bring all these things up for a vote. Ultimately, when you add them all up, it's basically the same thing as a continuing resolution.
Look, the Democrats have lost their minds. Again, Kaitlan, I never thought I would say that we have elected leaders in America that care more about criminal aliens than they care about American citizens. But that's the reality of the Democrat Party of today.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: Well, they're arguing that they want to extend the Obamacare subsidies. Obviously, you know that. And that's been what they have argued is their leverage. And we've seen Republicans say that before, including JD Vance, when he was in your position, when he was a senator, and not the Vice President.
But on this front. One thing that has been a sticking point here is the filibuster. You have said recently that Republicans should get rid of it, so then just Republicans can vote and the government would be reopened. Do you still feel that way tonight?
MORENO: Well, again, I don't know that the votes exist for that. My point of view is, if we can lower the threshold to 55, the government will reopen. And maybe we need to look at that and have that considered, because we can't let this keep going on. The Democrats have obviously no problem watching families go hungry. They have no problem watching our military not get paid. The other day, Jeff Merkley sat and kept the clerks and the Capitol Police, 24 hours, while he read poetry, knowing that they weren't getting paid? Who does that? I mean, where's the humanity in that?
COLLINS: But on the filibuster tonight, would you say, Yes, let's get rid of it?
MORENO: I, personally, if I were in charge of the entire -- everybody's mind, in the Senate, I think if we kept it to a 55 number, where we're funding the government, where we're not raising taxes or not increasing spending, I think that's something that we should consider.
Again, shouldn't have to happen, because we're giving them a clean continuing resolution.
COLLINS: OK. But you're saying--
MORENO: Their budget.
COLLINS: All right, so you're saying, Let's consider it. You're not saying, Let's do it. As you know, Leader Thune is in charge, and he seems to disagree with you, and I know that that was something that was a big topic at your lunch today.
The other part of this, though, is what is going to happen with these subsidies. Because the thing that Republicans have argued is, if Democrats would reopen the government, then you can have the conversation about what to do on that. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is saying that Republicans don't have a plan on how to bring down health care costs.
If the government reopen tomorrow, do you think Republican leaders have a plan on that?
MORENO: Yes, absolutely. And I would say to Marjorie Taylor Greene -- I like her. She came out to Ohio a few times. She's certainly able to write a bill herself. Like, if this is something she's passionate about, put pen to paper, write a bill, present an option. Don't just criticize what other people are doing.
In terms of what Republicans think, is that the marketplace should work. What Obamacare has proven is that it's a total abject failure at keeping costs affordable, ironically, in the name. So what the Democrats want to do is just throw more taxpayer money. They want to have more giveaways to insurance companies. They want to cover criminal aliens, which is totally insane.
What we need to do is lower the cost of health care. That's not a 24- hour question. We need to reopen the government. Let's have an actual adult conversation about, well we get together and say, Let's give the American people what they want, affordable health care. The Democrats failed in that mission.
Republicans did not vote for Obamacare. They did not vote for these Biden-era COVID subsidies. The Democrats did.
COLLINS: OK. But Senator, you're saying that Republicans do have a plan.
MORENO: Absolutely.
COLLINS: What is that plan?
MORENO: Well, we have to have--
COLLINS: I mean, can people see it?
MORENO: Sure. We have to have PBM reform. We have to look at the ways that we have a lot of waste, fraud and abuse in the health care system. We have to let the marketplace work. There's no transparency or competition. You look at some things like, for example, the Oklahoma City Surgery Center, and what they're doing. That's really innovation in health care, more remote, having nurses be able to treat patients in a different way.
The whole system can be looked at very holistically. But it's going to take three or four months to really bring a consensus to that plan. In the meantime, what are we going to do? Keep the government closed, for three or four months every time that we have a policy debate? This is nuts.
COLLINS: OK, so is there a plan ready tomorrow? Or you're saying it's going to take three to four months to coalesce around a plan?
MORENO: Look, we have different Republicans, for example, Senator Rick Scott, that's brilliant on this topic, that has a lot of amazing ideas.
But yes, of course, we have to build consensus. This is not a one-man show that runs the United States Senate. We have to bring Republicans together. It should be bipartisan. I think the voters expect us to work together on difficult things.
But we can't have a gun to our head and have the government closed and people suffering, not being able to feed their families, because the Democrats think it's good for them, politically. And by the way, they set--
COLLINS: So what happens--
MORENO: --they set the expiration of these Biden-era subsidies to be December 31st of 2025. They made EV subsidies to go through 2032 on luxury electric vehicles. But they chose--
COLLINS: OK. But on health care, Senator?
MORENO: --to have these subsidies end in 2025.
COLLINS: On health care, Senator, what is someone who has open enrollment, starting November 1st supposed to do, in response to the idea that it would take three to four months to coalesce around a plan?
MORENO: Look, Obamacare is a total, complete disaster. Having the COVID-era subsidies--
COLLINS: But what's the -- what's Republicans plan to counter that--
MORENO: But look -- I'm answering.
COLLINS: --I think is my question.
MORENO: I'm answering it for you. Look, we can't fix Obamacare in three months. What I'm telling you is that the COVID-era subsidies are a tiny fraction of any increase.
[21:15:00]
The increase is happening because Obamacare is broken. It's a complete, abject failure. There isn't a single Republican that voted for Obamacare. This is a Democrat plan. You should ask the next Democrat that you have on, What is your plan to fix your health care plan, because it's objectively terrible.
We will bring competition to the marketplace. We'll absolutely increase transparency. We'll have PBM reform. President Trump has done a ton to lower prescription drug prices. We're going to have Most Favored Nation status. We can do it, but we need to put together a--
COLLINS: Yes, and I'm--
MORENO: --coalition to make that happen.
COLLINS: I'm not defending Obamacare or the subsidies on that. But it has been 15 years. I know you've only been in the Senate. You're new to Washington, relatively new. But some people may say, Well, there's been 15 years since Obamacare passed. We haven't seen a Republican plan to replace it.
MORENO: Well, Obama was president for four years. President Trump was president for four years. And then, of course, Biden came in and made everything objectively worse. And by the way, you can't defend Obamacare, because it's indefensible.
COLLINS: OK. But you're acknowledging there was a Republican president in between those two Democrats--
MORENO: Yes, and--
COLLINS: --who's now back in office.
MORENO: And a very different situation. He only had two years of unified control of government. We got the most important bill done, which is tax relief for all Americans that stimulated our economy. And had it not been for COVID, we would have been in a totally different situation. Had President Trump had a second term that was consecutive, it would have been a very different situation. But the Democrats had control of government during Biden, and they did absolutely nothing about it. These are -- what they focused on was EV subsidies for millionaires, even, by the way, foreign luxury electric vehicles. That's what they made their priority. Why weren't they last year, or the year before, when Chuck Schumer was in charge, why weren't they anticipating the fact that these subsidies were going to end? And--
COLLINS: Yes, I think the question is just what's going to happen now. Obviously, Republicans are in charge, and I think a lot of people--
MORENO: We got to reopen the government.
COLLINS: Yes.
MORENO: That's what's got to happen right now.
COLLINS: A lot of people have huge questions about what the future of health care is.
Senator Bernie Moreno, always appreciate your time. Thank you for joining us tonight.
MORENO: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next here. A new Republican House Oversight report says that President Biden's cognitive decline was so severe he did not authorize, or may not have authorized, those pardons that he signed with the autopen in his name. They are arguing they should be voided by the Justice Department. What do our legal experts think about that? Is that even possible?
Also, there's new reporting tonight, as President Trump just fired an entire commission that typically would review plans for presidential construction projects, like the new ballroom, or when it comes to the East Wing. We'll talk about that ahead.
And also, what Speaker Mike Johnson says that he privately told the President about this idea of a third term, and what we're hearing from other Republicans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): If you read the Constitution, it says it's not. But if he says he has some -- some different circumstances that might be able to go around the Constitution, but that's up to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: One day after President Trump dangled the idea of seeking a constitutionally-prohibited third term in office, the House Speaker Mike Johnson told reporters today that he has actually talked about this with President Trump, but he dismissed it and argued that the President is just trolling liberals with his comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: I think the President knows, and he and I have talked about the constrictions of the Constitution, as much as so many of the American people lament that.
The Trump 2028 cap is one of the most popular that's ever been produced, and he has a good time with that, trolling the Democrats, whose hair is on fire about the very prospect. But I do believe that we've got three extraordinary years ahead of us, and the two years the Trump administration are going to be an incredible thing.
And I don't see a way to amend the Constitution, because it takes about 10 years to do that, as you all know, to allow all the states to ratify what -- what two-thirds of the House and three-fourths of the states would approve? So I don't -- I don't see the path for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's what the House speaker had to say. There is at least one Republican lawmaker in Washington who says, Never say never.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUBERVILLE: If you read the Constitution, it says it's not. But if he says he has some -- some different circumstances that might be able to go around the Constitution, but that's up to him. We got a long way to go before that happens.
REPORTER: But you're open to it?
TUBERVILLE: Well, I think that they're going to be having to -- have to be an evaluation from President Trump's viewpoint to the Constitution. There will be a lot of legal aspects to it. Will it happen? Very unlikely. But don't ever close the book on President Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political and legal sources are here with me tonight, and one of them used to work for President Trump.
I mean, do you think that he's just trolling liberals and Democrats with his comments?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Listen, Mike Johnson's comments are either going to age really well, and it was all one big troll. Or he's going to sound like my dear friend, Mick Mulvaney in the first term, who said, Of course, he's going to leave office peacefully, why would you even question it?
I take these 2028 comments out with a healthy grain of salt. I'll put it that way. Donald Trump is somebody who -- I take two things into consideration.
He's not one to be a lame-duck president. After the midterms, he will effectively be a lame duck if he's not seeking reelection. I don't see him ceding the world stage, much less the American podium of the presidency to JD Vance, or Marco Rubio, and not being kind of the central focus of American politics. That's one thing.
But separately, I also think he still has that weight from when he left office the first time, and felt like he was prosecuted left and right, at the federal level, at the state level. And I think that he has a legitimate fear that if he left office, even if it's one of his successors that becomes President, that he's going to spend his twilight years tied up in courts.
So, I think it's real. I listen to Steve Bannon when he says these things, and I wouldn't rule it out.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: Yes, Steve Bannon was the one pushing this the most. He's saying that there is going to be a third Trump term.
I think that one person that maybe we should listen to, in addition to Senator Tommy Tuberville on this, is Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett, who was actually asked about the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution, and said this in a recent interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: The 22nd Amendment says you can only run for office for two terms.
JUSTICE AMY CONEY BARRETT, SUPREME COURT: True.
BAIER: You think that that's cut and dry.
CONEY BARRETT: Well, that's, you know, that's what the amendment says, right? You know, after FDR had four terms, that that's what that amendment says.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Elie?
HONIG: OK. I agree with Justice Barrett. Now, the Constitution--
COLLINS: You agree with her, that that's what the amendment says?
HONIG: If -- right, it does, yes -- Bret Baier--
COLLINS: Thank you.
HONIG: Bret Baier read it correctly.
But now look, the 22nd Amendment is about 99.8 percent clear. But let me just explain the 0.2 percent where it's maybe not clear. I'm not endorsing this. I think it will fail. But let me explain where that 0.2 percent is coming from.
The 22nd Amendment says, No person shall be elected to President more than twice. But there's arguably a difference between elected and be the president or serve as president. So that gives rise to this theory, maybe he'll run as the Vice President, and then the President will resign.
However, you then have to look at the 12th Amendment, which says if you're ineligible to be president, you're ineligible to be Vice President. But the response to that, and this is where I think it really gets ridiculous, is ineligible just means the 35-years-old, natural-born U.S. citizen and 14 years of residence in the United States.
So, it's one of these situations you just wish the Framers, the people who wrote -- well, this is a later amendment -- but the people who wrote the Constitution were just a little clearer. They obviously meant you can't be the president twice, but they didn't quite say it.
I think it loses in court. I don't want to encourage this. But that's the legal hook that people are hanging on to.
COLLINS: I'm not sure the Framers had Steve Bannon in mind--
ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, HOST & EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, VOX MEDIA: Yes, yes.
COLLINS: --pushing a third term when they were cracking all of this out.
HERNDON: To me, this is the uniqueness of Donald Trump. He finds that 0.02 percent and he tries to exploit it.
We should know where this source came from. You all mentioned Steve Bannon. He's been the one pushing this. And I'm sure, for a certain base of kind of the Trump constituency, there will be folks who say he'll be president as long as I want him to be.
I think the bigger question is they want us to think this. The troll is real, obviously, too, though. And I think this goes to a point of them wanting to push the limits of executive authority, wanting to push the limits of constitutional authority. That's been the theme, whether it's been Venezuela, whether it's been the ICE raids, whether it's been this constitutional amendment.
And so, it feels to me at least that whether it's true or false, that Trump desires this. It seems, to y'all's point, that this is more Bannon than him himself. But the point about, We might, seems to be consistent throughout a lot of their actions.
COLLINS: Yes, it's trolling until it's not.
HERNDON: Right.
COLLINS: And also, the fact that he has spoken about this, with the House Speaker Mike Johnson, is what stood out to me. I thought that was the headline from that. Not the constitutional lawyer from Louisiana saying, there's no path to this. It's that Trump has even discussed it with him.
But the other thing that happened on the Hill today was the House Oversight Committee, led by James Comer, sent a letter to the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, basically arguing, Alyssa, that the pardons that President Biden signed using the autopen are void. They argue this, because that they determined it was -- that action is warranted by the DOJ to address the legal consequences of this.
I wonder how you're viewing this, given Biden basically did this because he was worried that people would be targeted by Trump.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Right. So listen, Biden commuted about 4,000 sentences, and I think pardoned another 80 during his time in office. If you asked me, Did Joe Biden know, could he name every person whose sentence he commuted, or person he pardoned? I'd say, Maybe not.
Do you think Joe Biden was aware that he was pardoning Liz Cheney, Mark Milley, Tony Fauci? Absolutely. This was a public political discourse for months before those pardons were signed.
We were all -- I was on set at CNN. We were waiting to see if there would be last-minute pardons, and they came down.
So, I think it's a lot harder, and it feels, frankly, profoundly stupid to argue Biden is totally unaware and had no say in the fact that these were people he intentionally meant to pardon. So, I don't see a legal way that that stands up. That's a better question for Elie. But it feels like, frankly, a waste of time.
COLLINS: But Elie, I also want you to listen to what James Comer said to Jake Tapper, earlier today, and also what President Trump told me last week when I asked him about a recent pardon of his own.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Why wouldn't he be more involved? Why wouldn't there be notes from meetings that Joe Biden said this? There's no documentation that would suggest Joe Biden was involved in the pardon.
COLLINS: Today, you pardoned the founder of Binance. Can you explain why you chose to pardon him, and did it have anything to do with his involvement in your family's--
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Which one? Who's that?
COLLINS: The founder of Binance. He has involvement in your own family's crypto business.
TRUMP: The recent one? That's the -- I believe we're talking about the same person, because--
COLLINS: CZ. [21:30:00]
TRUMP: --I do pardon a lot of people. I don't know. He was recommended by a lot of people. A lot of people say that -- are you talking about the crypto person?
COLLINS: Yes.
TRUMP: A lot of people say that he wasn't guilty of anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HONIG: OK. So the report that came out today--
COLLINS: Do you see my point?
HONIG: I do. Very much so. Very clearly illustrated.
The report is kind of interesting, because there's a bit of sleight of hand involved. And I just read through it. I read the executive summary at the beginning. OK. It starts with two, I think, correct factual assertions.
One, Joe Biden was not at his tip-top shape, mentally and declining. And two, there was a coverup within the White House. True and true. I think, not breaking news. We've seen that before.
But then there's a big leap over the key question to hence, his pardons are void. The only way we will ever really get this tested is if DOJ takes the absolutely unprecedented step of saying, OK, I know there's a pardon for -- I'm not going to say any names, fill in any of the names that you just said -- We're going to indict that person anyway. That person will then say, But I've been pardoned.
And what DOJ would then have to show, and this is not in the report, is Joe Biden was not aware, did not authorize, did not approve, that, regardless of who physically signed it.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Couldn't Biden just come out and say and state that he authorized these?
COLLINS: I think he has, times--
HERNDON: Yes.
COLLINS: --previously.
HERNDON: He has. But I want to emphasize your second point. I mean, I -- I was on Joe Biden about not being a president who was leading in the reelection, kind of premise. But I think the point of that was the promise that it broke to American people about who was leading, right?
HONIG: Sure.
HERNDON: And I think that is also broken in Trump. There is fiefdoms around him, where you clearly see people running their own versions of this federal government that are not centralized back to him. I think that's what that clip shows.
And so, in the same way that they were kind of talking about Biden, in the way that that kind of broke a promise to Americans and democracy, I think there's a lot of arguments that applies to this White House also.
COLLINS: And a lot of questions for you coming up about the New York City mayor's race. Everyone's going to stick with us.
Up next. Also, what I just mentioned that President Trump, when it came to taking a wrecking ball to the East Wing. Also, they just fired everyone on an independent federal agency that is tasked with advising him on design and esthetics, including maybe that controversial new ballroom.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have breaking news tonight, as the White House has just fired all six members of a commission that advises the President on all things design and construction, in Washington, D.C.
This is a scoop by The Washington Post that was confirmed by our own Sam Waldenberg tonight, that the Commission of Fine Arts, which was established by Congress, and typically would review changes made to the White House, or new monuments being built in the nation's capital. Now, the entire group has been fired this evening.
Of course, those reviews would typically include something like President Trump's new ballroom, or that massive new arch that he is planning to celebrate the nation's 250th birthday.
My political and legal sources are back here with me.
And Alyssa, there was an email from an adviser in the PPO office, which is the Presidential Personnel Office, that said, on behalf of the President, they were writing to inform that their position as a member of this commission had been terminated effective immediately.
They had all been appointed by President Biden to serve four-year terms, I guess, is probably the White House's argument here.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes, and listen, he's done this throughout government. We saw it with the Kennedy Center, places -- some of these appointments that were generally kind of apolitical -- president -- people from previous administrations would stay on, they'd stay on longer terms.
But I think Trump wants to remake Washington in his image. That's what this is. I mean, he wants to leave in a way that's so different than the first term, by the way. He wants to leave his mark on the White House and Washington, D.C. So, the massive ballroom, the Arc de Trump, or whatever we're calling it now, he feels really empowered, and he feels like his legacy belongs in Washington, as much as George Washington or any president since then. COLLINS: Yes.
And Astead, I want to ask you on a separate topic tonight. But we just got in new numbers, this evening, on the early voting when it comes to politics here in the New York City's mayor's race, something the President is deeply invested in.
Now, nearly 298,000 New Yorkers have voted early. That's a 75 percent increase from the 170,000 that voted early in 2021. That's the total in 2021.
HERNDON: Yes.
COLLINS: We still have a few more days of it here in New York.
You wrote a very lengthy and really good story on Zohran Mamdani. I wonder, what you think his campaign is making of numbers like this tonight.
HERNDON: I think they would take the bet of enthusiasm. For one, like this won't be a mayor's race that's about low turnout, about low engagement. There's been something that's moved people, and they think that helps them. Honestly. They think that, though -- this mayor's race is a referendum on him, and they'll take that bet. The question mark is, where is that coming from?
Andrew Cuomo, in the last couple weeks, has tried to really turn the tide up in terms of raising Mamdani's unpopularity, more focusing on negatives, I think, exclusively, like almost overtly engaging in a fear-based campaign about him. That might have some -- might have some resonance.
But what I think Mamdani is betting on is that folks have known him for a while, right? That they know the promises. And that on the kind of question about whether he would be a good mayor or not, that he's passed the level of competence.
What our story was really about was his change from the primary to the general election. The version of him that came here a year ago is not the same. The version of him that came to the state assembly in Albany is not the same. This is someone who's made explicit overtures to people who were skeptical of him, real estate community, business community, folks who were wary about some of those promises, saying, We might not agree on policy, but then we can find a level of agreement that we can grow on. And that's shown some willingness, that's shown some growth.
[21:40:00]
The vocal supporters of Cuomo that may have been there on skepticism come, maybe the weeks after the primary, have really dialed back, and I think that's partially because of the overtures Mamdani has made. And so, the question now becomes -- I think it is a race that's a referendum on him. Has Cuomo inspired enough energy on the other side? I'd be skeptical of that, but I wouldn't put it out the possibility.
COLLINS: And what do you attribute the changes and who you said he was a year ago, and how he approached this race, and now.
HERNDON: Yes.
COLLINS: Is it because of his success, and maybe he wasn't expecting it? Or what is that attributed to?
HERNDON: I think it's a little bit of both. There is some surprise at the success, but there's also a recognition that the ideology doesn't match with a role like Mayor, right? In Congress, you're a little more -- you can a little more easily line up with your beliefs and just vote yes or no based on that.
There's a recognition that New York only works with all involved. And so, when he's going to talk to Bernie Sanders, for example, he's not going to talk to him about the rigidity of his beliefs. He's actually asking him how he made those work within the role of mayorship. And so, he recognizes that what he signed up for is not something that rewards specific rigidity or only placating the folks on the left. And so, he's trying to tell people, I see that, I know that, I will govern as that.
COLLINS: Yes.
HERNDON: I think keeping Jessica Tisch, New York police -- New York Police Department Commissioner is a big example of that. He has made that point to say, specifically on policing, I recognize where I was wrong, I'll make a 180.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Can I say one thing on that, though?
HERNDON: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes, go ahead.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Because I interviewed Zohran Mamdani on "The View," and I asked him, I said, Have your positions evolved, because you're surrounded by political consultants who see that you can get elected if you moderate some of these?
HERNDON: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: And asked specifically about his criticisms of the NYPD and whether he would apologize, starting with the Commissioner. And he dodged and said that he was individually apologizing and speaking with members of the NYPD.
Two weeks later, he goes on Fox News and issues an apology.
HERNDON: For sure.
FARAH GRIFFIN: To me, that feels like you're kind of calculating based on the political dynamics. I'm a little more skeptical that this is an authentic moderation, not simply moving toward trying to get elected.
COLLINS: But--
HERNDON: I guess I just would say, I think that's everybody.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Right.
COLLINS: And all of it (ph).
HERNDON: I think that's--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: But Elie, can I ask you?
HONIG: Yes.
COLLINS: Because something crazy happened today, which is the Times of London put out a story, quoting Bill de Blasio saying that Mamdani's campaign promises, in his view, the math doesn't hold up under scrutiny, and the political hurdles are substantial.
De Blasio came out and said, This isn't true. I never spoke to this reporter.
They had to take the article down, and the Times of London apologized and put out a statement saying that their reporter was misled. I guess there's a Bill de Blasio impersonator in our midst.
HONIG: It's got to be a tall guy, first of all, to be convincing.
Yes, I mean, look, that's obviously would be defamation. I'm not sure you can sue, unless they have some operations here that you can sue for.
One quick question, if I can ask you guys. Do you see Mamdani as a trap for the Democratic Party? Because I've seen some Democratic Party leaders worrying. Look, he's a charismatic guy. If he gets elected, every Democratic Senate candidate from Ohio is going to be asked, Do you agree with him?
FARAH GRIFFIN: Right.
HERNDON: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Trump's on the edge of his seat hoping Mamdani wins, because he wants to paint all Democrats in the midterms as mini Zohran Mamdanis.
HERNDON: They have that problem, either way. You know, they got painted as too far left last cycle.
HONIG: True.
HERNDON: It's the reason they're not in power.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes.
COLLINS: We'll leave it there, on that note, Astead. Up next for us here. We're going to check in, because what's been happening in the Middle East has gotten a lot of attention today. Israel has just launched new strikes in Gaza. What does that mean for the ceasefire that was put in place? The President said he believed the war was over. And what they are accusing Hamas of doing.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, there are new questions about the status of President Trump's ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, after Israel accused Hamas of breaking that truce, with Gaza officials saying at least 20 people have been killed after the Prime Minister in Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, ordered the military to carry out what he described as immediate and powerful strikes inside of Gaza.
That came after Israel said that Hamas attacked IDF soldiers in the Rafah area of southern Gaza, and that Hamas operatives had staged the discovery of a deceased hostage.
There's newly-released drone video from the IDF that appears to show three men, dragging a white shroud into a bulldozed plot and covering it with dirt. A bulldozer later scoops up dirt and drops it on top of that pile. And moments later, as the Red Cross arrived, the shroud containing the body, what they said was a body, is pulled from the dirt.
CNN has reached out for comment from Hamas on this video. The Red Cross said it was not aware that a deceased person had been placed there, before they got there, as seen in the footage.
When asked whether or not these attacks could spell the end of this ceasefire, what it meant for that, the Vice President JD Vance was on Capitol Hill today, and told reporters, quote, "The president achieved a historic peace in the Middle East, the ceasefire is holding. That doesn't mean that there aren't going to be little skirmishes here and there."
My source tonight is the prominent foreign policy expert, Michael McFaul, who served as the U.S. Ambassador to Russia under President Obama, and is the Author of the brand-new book out today, "Autocrats Vs. Democrats: China, Russia, America, and the New Global Disorder."
And I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for being here. And congrats on the book.
MICHAEL MCFAUL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA, AUTHOR, "AUTOCRATS VS. DEMOCRATS": Yes, on Pub Night, so it's great to be with you too.
COLLINS: Which is the best night to get an author.
But can I ask you? I want to ask you about the book, because there's a lot of interesting moments in it. But on the ceasefire right now--
MCFAUL: Yes. COLLINS: --I mean, how do you -- if I'm a regular person, I say, is this holding? I mean, what do you think, when you see what's happened today?
[21:50:00]
MCFAUL: Obviously not. If it's a ceasefire, and they're firing at each other, that means it's not holding. That doesn't mean it wasn't a great achievement to get the hostages out, and to temporarily end the war. I give the President a lot of credit for that.
But if you want to make it durable, you got to do more than that. You have to put together the contours, peacekeepers, agreements, signing pieces of paper that commits sides to do certain things. And none of that has been done yet. So, if they want genuine piece for the long haul, President Trump and his team have a lot of work to do.
COLLINS: Yes, and so many questions about what it means. The President was on Air Force One. He said, nothing jeopardizes the ceasefire, just now with reporters, as they're flying to the final trip -- final stop on his Asia trip. I think there's a lot of questions about that.
But the other thing he was asked about on Air Force One, when he talks about foreign conflicts that he wants to solve, is Russia and Ukraine.
MCFAUL: Yes.
COLLINS: And after we saw President Putin claiming that they successfully tested a long-range nuclear-powered cruise missile. The President's weighed in on that, and this is what he told reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They know we have a nuclear submarine, the greatest in the world, right off their shores. So I mean, doesn't have to go 8,000 miles, and they're not playing games with us. We're not playing games with them either.
I don't think it's an appropriate thing to Putin -- for Putin to be saying either, by the way. You ought to get the war ended. A war that should have taken one week is now in its soon fourth year. That's what you ought to do instead of testing missiles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: How do you think someone like Putin hears that? You're the former Ambassador to Russia. What do you think?
MCFAUL: Well, first of all, I agree completely with the President. Let's be clear about that. He should stop testing missiles and end the war. But that's not how Putin sees it. That's not who he hears it. He listens to that, and he says, I got their attention by talking about nuclear weapons.
And he's done that several times during this war, most prominently in the fall of 2022, when he was losing and he's threatened, you know, made suggestions that he might use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, and that got the White House's attention, and they pulled back. And I think that's what he's seeking to achieve here, by talking about this new weapon system.
COLLINS: Something in your book stood out to me, where you talked about--
MCFAUL: In and of itself, that's a good thing. If anything stood out?
COLLINS: It's--
MCFAUL: That's a good sign.
COLLINS: No, it's a really good read, and it's very timely, I think. And on this idea of a war breaking out between Russia and NATO allies, which is obviously what we've been talking about--
MCFAUL: Yes.
COLLINS: --ever since Russia invaded Ukraine. You write that it's unlikely today. But the thing that you said that stood out to me, you said, the nightmare scenario is more probable than it was during the final decades of the Cold War--
MCFAUL: Yes.
COLLINS: --because of Putin's high level of risk-taking.
MCFAUL: Right. And that's the thing we got to always remember about Putin. So, his capabilities -- you know, I go through capabilities in the book. Power.
COLLINS: Yes.
MCFAUL: The balance of power between China, America and Russia. He's weak -- he's the weakest of those three countries by far. Economic, military, he's weaker than China or the United States. But his intentions and his ability to use what he has in very provocative, dangerous ways, we've learned, is much greater than Xi Jinping or Donald Trump, by far.
And I think we've complete -- for years, and even back when I was in the government, under President Obama, we underestimated his willingness to do risky things. And that could drag us into a war with him. And therefore, we should do all that we can do to help Ukrainians stop Putin in Ukraine, so that we don't have to worry about perhaps fighting him in a place like Lithuania.
COLLINS: Well, and this comes as Trump, I mentioned, he's on his way to South Korea. He's got a huge meeting with Xi Jinping--
MCFAUL: Yes.
COLLINS: --that's going to be taking place, this time tomorrow night, that's coming out. You talk in your book about avoiding war in the South China Sea. This has been a huge topic, although -- China didn't even congratulate the new Japanese Prime Minister, that Trump just met with, on her election. And you talk about Xi pushing to undermine laws, norms, protocols, when it comes to that.
What are you going to be watching for in this Trump-Xi meeting tomorrow?
MCFAUL: Well, I hope they do cut the deal that they're talking about in terms of economic issues, and it looks like they've done the proper work, their teams have, to have some kind of breakthrough on that.
But I hope it's not just about economics, because you're talking about security issues right now. And I think we have to understand that our relationship with China is about security as well as economic issues. And I hope that they won't say something, our President will not say something, imprudent about Taiwan.
COLLINS: And what would that look like?
MCFAUL: Well, that's your -- It's for you guys to decide, we don't have a dog in that fight.
No, we do have a dog in that fight. Keeping the peace in Asia. I call these non-events, when I teach at Stanford. We don't study non-events enough. We study wars, revolutions. We need to study non-events. And the non-event of a war between China and the United States over Taiwan, fantastic achievement in the Cold War. We got to keep working at it to keep the peace.
COLLINS: Michael McFaul, congratulations on the new book.
MCFAUL: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thank you for being here on Pub Night.
MCFAUL: Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: And be sure to pick up his new book. It is "Autocrats Vs. Democrats: China, Russia, America, and the New Global Disorder." It's out now today.
Also, we have an exciting new update for you, this evening. Stay with us.
[21:55:00]
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