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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Says He Supports Senate Deal To Reopen Government; Senate Votes To End Shutdown, Sending Bill To House; Whistleblower: Ghislaine Maxwell Gets Customized Meals, Puppy Time, After-Hours Gym Access In Prison. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 10, 2025 - 21:00 ET
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: My guest, this week, is country music superstar, Kenny Chesney. The podcast is available, starting 08:00 p.m. Eastern Time, tomorrow, wherever you get your podcasts.
Or you can listen or watch it, the full video version of my conversation with Kenny, at our grief community page, CNN.com/AllThereIs. You can access a full library of past podcast episodes there, and watch my new companion streaming show, "All There Is Live" at CNN.com/AllThereIs.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight. Democrats are fuming, as a handful of Senators break rank, and vote with Republicans, to end the longest government shutdown in U.S. history.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Good evening from Capitol Hill, where it has been quite a busy evening.
And as we come on the air, right now, you're watching this Senate, on the right side of your screen, as they are voting on the final passage of the deal to bring the longest government shutdown on U.S. record to an end tonight.
It has been 41 days now, since the federal government shutdown. Almost all 40 of those that we've been here, broadcasting on Capitol Hill, getting the latest developments.
And tonight, in these developments, the Senate have, House Speaker Mike Johnson scrambling to bring back Republicans, and the entire House back, for what would be their first vote in nearly two months. That's because eight senators in the Democratic caucus, here on Capitol Hill, have agreed to a deal. It does not include the extension of the health insurance subsidies that they have been demanding. But instead, it only has the promise of a vote on them next month.
As for President Trump, here's what he said when I asked him earlier, inside the Oval Office, where he stands on this deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Do you personally approve of the deal that's happening right now on Capitol Hill to end the government shutdown?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, it depends what deal we're talking about. But if it's a deal I heard about, that's certainly, you know, they want to change the deal a little bit. But I would say so, I think based on everything I'm hearing, they haven't changed anything, and we have support from enough Democrats, and we're going to be opening up our country. It's too bad it was closed. But we'll be opening up our country very quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After that, later on, during an interview with Fox News, he criticized Senator Chuck Schumer's handling of the government shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: What message do you have for Schumer tonight?
TRUMP: Well, I think he made a mistake in going too far. He, you know--
INGRAHAM: Going too far how?
TRUMP: Well he just went too far. He thought he could break the Republicans. And the Republicans broke him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But when it comes to the specifics of this plan, and what the President and his party want to do, when it comes to bringing down the cost of going to the doctor, here's what the President said tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We want a health care system where we pay the money to the people instead of the insurance companies. And I tell you, we're going to be working on that very hard, over the next short period of time, where the people get the money. We're talking about trillions and trillions of dollars, where the people get the money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And as this deal was coming together today, here in Washington, the President was meeting with another foreign leader, at the White House today. This time, the new leader of Syria. And that moment alone would have been an unthinkable one, once upon a time. It's an encounter between the U.S. Commander-in-Chief, and a former al Qaeda militant who once, well, not that long ago, had a $10 million U.S. bounty on his head.
But as you see this meeting that played out today, and the series of foreign leaders that have come through the White House, it's led to some criticism from one of the President's biggest supporters, here on Capitol Hill.
Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene said this today that she would really like to see nonstop meetings at the White House on domestic policy, not foreign policy, and foreign country's leaders.
Which I asked the President directly about, in that same meeting, inside the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Earlier today, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is a big ally of yours, said that she would rather see you focused on nonstop domestic policy meetings, here at the White House, instead of nonstop foreign policy meetings.
What's her response to her saying that, and also saying that grocery prices are up and not down, as you've said?
TRUMP: Yes, so, I don't know what happened to Marjorie. She's a nice woman. But I don't know what happened. She's lost her way, I think.
But I have to view the presidency as a worldwide situation, not locally. I mean, we could have a world that's on fire, where wars come to our shores, very easily, if you had a bad president.
But with all of that, I passed a great, big, beautiful bill, which is the biggest tax cuts in the history of our country. So, when somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's now catering to the other side, I don't know what -- you know, I guess she's -- you know, got some kind of an act going, but I'm surprised at her. But when somebody like Marjorie goes over and starts making statements like that, it shows she doesn't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: We asked the Congresswoman from Georgia, her response to the President's comments there. She gave this one line statement to CNN, saying, quote, I haven't lost my way. I'm 100 percent America first and only.
The divide among the President and supporters, like Congresswoman Greene, comes, as Democrats in the House have been whipping members to vote against this shutdown deal that the Senate is voting on right now.
That split, in their party, between those who support it, and those who instead want them to keep fighting, is quite stark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Now, with respect to the senators, on the other side of the Capitol, they're going to have to explain themselves.
SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Staying in a shutdown mode was not getting us anywhere.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): There's no way to defend this.
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): So here we are in a situation, and this was the reality. SNAP recipients, suffering. Nothing happening on ACA.
So from suffering and no path, we've now got robust benefits and a path.
SEN. JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D-CO): Because that's -- piss off. I'm just frustrated.
SEN. ANGUS KING (I-ME): So standing up to Donald Trump didn't work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my Democratic source tonight is one of the senators who does not support this deal. Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
Because you just heard your colleague, Senator Angus King. He says, Standing up to Donald Trump did not work.
You've said, the only way to stop him is to stand up to him. That's a direct quote from you.
Which of you do you believe is right tonight?
SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D-OR): Yes, I'm extremely disturbed by what's happening tonight, because a group from our caucus made a deal, a deal to end our leverage, which produces simply some vote in the future that won't actually be a bill that has a chance of getting out of the Senate, let alone through the House. And that undercut our effort, for sure, to produce a health care win.
And I'm so concerned about those 20 million Americans, who see their cost of health insurance, on average, doubling, but many people seeing three or four times increase, so many people conveying that they're not going to buy insurance at all.
And in order to be effective, you have to be united. And so, when a single group undercuts that, it's a problem. But I don't want to look back now. I want to look -- I want to look forward. Because we have an authoritarian taking over our country. And we know, if you don't have a fierce fight in the first year, that that authoritarian gets stronger.
And so, we have got to refocus on the fact that he is steadily dismantling the separation of powers, the checks and balances of our Constitution, attacking our freedoms, undermining the power of the purse at the heart of congressional power, and trying to mobilize the military into the streets, and rig the next election. So, we better focus on both the quality of life for Americans and on his authoritarian takeover. COLLINS: You said you want to focus on moving forward. I mean, what this bill, and this agreement, from your eight colleagues who crossed the aisle and voted for this, they said they're getting a vote on the ACA subsidies, next month.
But you're saying, right now, that vote's not going to go anywhere, in your view. Is that right?
MERKLEY: It's extraordinarily unlikely. It is, first of all, not attached to any must-pass legislation, something that was in this bill. The vote to reopen the government was must-pass legislation. The Republicans have all kinds of different ideas that they want to do on health care. So, why are they going to sign on to our strategy for extending the tax credits.
We offered this strategy. And, by the way, it was such a generous offer. Because they have said they want to produce a whole new health care plan. Well, you can't do that overnight. So, take a year. Extend these credits. Don't throw 20 million people out of our system or make it, the insurance unaffordable. So join with us, put these in place for a year while you develop your plan and bring it back. That was an excellent compromise. But we didn't have the leverage with the deal that had been struck on the side.
COLLINS: Yes, well, I just think some people might say, OK, but for 41 days, they have tuned in, and they have watched Democrats say, We have to get these subsidies extended. We have to get these subsidies extended.
I mean, what do you say to people who are now worried about this, and there's a deal tonight, but no subsidies have been extended?
MERKLEY: Well, I think it's an absolute tragedy. It is a brutal blow to people across our country. And the way to get the leverage to get those extended was not to have a different side deal that simply gets a vote. I know that my conversations with Republicans, they said, why would we provide help to address this issue, when you already got a group that settled for something much less, just a vote in the future?
[21:10:00]
But again, I want to pivot from that, and say, that showed some signs that we have work to do in our caucus, to create unity. That sort of unity, and full disclosure of what's going on, is essential, if we're going to take on the biggest threat to our Constitution since the Civil War, if we're going to take on the biggest set of forces driving up costs for ordinary Americans. Groceries, through the roof. Electric power, going up. Certainly, health care, doubling on average, on the exchange. People feel very pressed.
And of course, President Trump said he would lower costs on day one. And in fact, he's spent 10 months, raising costs, making America poorer and sicker. And we have to unite on that, and this authoritarian takeover of power.
COLLINS: Yes, and of course, your colleagues who voted for this have said, this was the only pragmatic way out of this. They were never going to get those subsidies extended.
Can I ask you one question that has been going around, among Democrats, tonight, is whether Senator Schumer is the right leader for your party in the Senate.
What do you say?
MERKLEY: I am completely focused on our caucus working together, and taking on the President.
There is one key villain in this story, and that villain is President Trump. He cut the health care benefits in the big, ugly betrayal of a bill, in order to fund tax benefits for billionaires.
And right now, Kaitlan, he is changing the rules on the corporate minimum tax that will -- well, it's -- the estimate is somewhere around in the tens of billions of dollars, probably enough to have paid for the extension of the tax credits. And so, he's giving even another gift to the very richest and most powerful Americans.
So, you cut nutrition, for billionaires.
COLLINS: OK.
MERKLEY: You cut health care, for billionaires. This is families lose, billionaires win. This is horrific, and it shows you we're under an authoritarian, not under a democracy.
COLLINS: That was notably not a yes.
Senator Jeff Merkley, I know we're in the middle of votes tonight. Thank you for taking the time to join us.
MERKLEY: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And a big question here, on Capitol Hill, is where this deal goes when it gets to the House.
House Speaker Mike Johnson, as we noted, has called the members back. They've only been in session for a total of 20 days, over the last five months. If you can believe that.
Speaker Mike Johnson ended his press conference, this morning, without answering questions. But he did do several interviews today about how his party plans to make it cheaper for people to go to the doctor. He said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I'm not committing to it or not committing to it. What I'm saying is that we do a deliberative process.
We got to bring down the costs, and you can do that in a responsible way that also increases access and quality of care. And we've got -- we got notebooks full of ideas on how to do that. We're going to do in the House what we always do, that is a deliberative process. I mean, we're going to have to find consensus on whatever -- whatever their proposal is
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And joining me now is my Republican source, a doctor and a senator, from Kansas, Senator Roger Marshall, who drew the short straw and is outside with me, while Senator Merkley was inside.
And thank you for being here with us.
I do think there's a big question of, John Thune has offered this assurance that there will be a vote, at least next month. You just heard Senator Merkley there, saying he doesn't really think it's going to go anywhere.
But do you think if it does, that House Speaker Mike Johnson should bring it up for a vote in the House as well?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): I don't know if he should or shouldn't.
I want to be -- get locked in on bringing down the cost of health care, regardless. And I think that's what you're going to see the House doing, as well as us doing. We want everyone to have meaningful, affordable access to health care. We want to make people healthy again, and let's talk about how we're going to do that.
We're sending $150 billion a year to big insurance companies. Let's take that $150 billion, let's give a part of that to consumers, to patients, and set up better HSAs for them, give them more choices out there. Let's expand community health centers, where people can get access to more primary care as well.
So, let's talk about solutions. Like Senator Merkley said, let's focus on the future. And we're ready to get to work.
COLLINS: OK. So, I think some people might say, Well, what is the plan? What is Republicans' plan to bring down health care costs?
MARSHALL: Yes, so let's focus just on the people in Obamacare. The good news is the Democrats all agree with us that it's unaffordable, that it didn't work. So number one, there's about--
COLLINS: Well, they don't all agree, but some of them.
MARSHALL: You listen to speech--
COLLINS: Senator Bernie Sanders and folks might agree.
MARSHALL: I just heard a lot of speeches like that.
So anyway. I think number one is, we address the fraud within that program. There's about $25 billion of fraud. I talked about already, let's take that $150 billion we're giving insurance companies. Give about a third of that back to patients, to consumers, to set up their own health care savings accounts.
Beyond that, there's work to be done with -- roll back the PBMs when it comes to prescription drug prices. TrumpRx is going to be something else that will work. We can expand access to association health care plans, to ministry plans as well. We want to set up high-risk pools, reinsurance pools in every state as well.
So, there's a lot of things we can do. These are not new concepts. Speaker Johnson, and I have been working on this together for years.
COLLINS: So -- well, you've been talking about for years. But is there like a comprehensive plan that people could look at and decide whether or not they think it's something that Republicans should pass?
MARSHALL: We'll have something within that when -- we'll have a side- to-side bill, when they're come -- when they're come out, when they get their vote on Obamacare subsidies, giving you--
COLLINS: You're going to have a healthcare bill--
MARSHALL: We will.
COLLINS: --by the second week of December?
MARSHALL: We will. We've been working on this very, very hard for several years.
[21:15:00]
And again, Speaker Johnson, and I have done one, several years ago. But we'll get a new one, getting it together. We're bringing the pieces together, just like I discussed. Again, taking $150 billion, rather than giving it to big insurance companies. Let's empower patients. Make them consumers again. Let them make the choices that they want to do.
The other big piece to the bill -- and again, this is already written. You can look it up. It's called our Price Tags bill, which is going to allow patients, before they have that knee surgery done, they can compare one hospital to another, compare the prices and the outcomes.
COLLINS: So, you're saying Republicans will have a comprehensive health care plan to vote on, when the Senate votes on those, extending the subsidies?
MARSHALL: Yes, we will.
COLLINS: And it's going to address people who have cancer, or pre- existing conditions, or don't know what to do if their premiums are spiking at the end of December?
MARSHALL: Absolutely. We're going to have to figure some type of a -- of an off-ramp for people that are over the 400 percent of income. Especially, we got to figure out what to do with them. It's very tough. Again, the insurance companies have put the shaft to American consumers for so long, our premiums have went up, what, they've doubled since Obamacare caught -- care came around, and the insurance companies' values of their stock have went up more than a 1,000 percent.
COLLINS: So you'll vote no, on the health care subsidies vote next month, I presume?
MARSHALL: Absolutely.
COLLINS: And then you'll have this plan laid out, and Leader Thune is going to bring it to the floor for a vote?
MARSHALL: Yes, and it's not going to be perfect. I think there'll be more work to do after that. We're going to do as much as we can, to get something ready by then.
And then, hopefully, before the January 30th deadline of this next continuing resolution, we can work on a bipartisan way. And by the way, these eight people that walked across the line, they are absolutely profiles in courage, and they're going to be very central to what this bill looks like.
COLLINS: Can I ask you what someone who is listening to you tonight might say? OK, Republicans don't like Obamacare, but they've had 15 years to change it, and they haven't introduced that plan.
What would you say to someone who's skeptical of Republicans having a plan by December?
MARSHALL: Yes, Speaker Johnson and I introduced one, several years ago.
COLLINS: So, will it look like that, do you think?
MARSHALL: I think it'll be a lot of changes since then, a lot of more water underneath the bridge. I think we're going to be much more aggressive, taking money away from big insurance companies and giving them to patients.
COLLINS: Can I -- I want everyone to listen to what you're talking about, insurance companies taking all the money, earlier. You mentioned this on the Senate floor, yesterday.
I want everyone to listen just part of your speech from yesterday.
MARSHALL: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARSHALL: Get this: 35 to 40 percent of Obamacare recipients that are enrolled in Obamacare never file a claim. Let me say that again. There's 24 million people on Obamacare. 35, 40 percent of those people never file a claim. These are ghost people. They don't even know they're on Obamacare. They have been falsely enrolled in Obamacare. Now some people would say, Oh, but there's -- but there's -- there's always some people that don't file a claim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Some people might have listened to that and said, OK, but that's how insurance works. You're pooling risks. And that just because you don't file a claim doesn't mean you don't need insurance. I mean, you have life insurance, you have fire insurance.
MARSHALL: Right.
COLLINS: It doesn't mean your house is burned down, things like that.
MARSHALL: So, two points. Number one, people in Obamacare are typically more high risk, that they've been pushed out of other situations. Secondly, typically it's a 10 or 20 percent of people aren't going to file a claim, but not 35 or 40.
But regardless, I think Americans want us to be frugal with their money. If there is fraud there, we want to get rid of it. And I think there's very simple ways we can do that. And one way is, everyone should be able to pay a little bit in. I think if you have the monthly withdrawal from your account, you're going to recognize that. So, people need to be paying something into the plan.
COLLINS: Senator Roger Marshall, I hope you'll come back in December, when that plan is introduced.
MARSHALL: Thank you.
COLLINS: And I know, you got to go vote right now.
MARSHALL: We do.
COLLINS: So, thank you for joining us, here on the Hill, tonight.
MARSHALL: Thank you. Thanks.
COLLINS: Really appreciate that.
And we're continuing to watch the Senate floor. The Senator's about to head over there, for final passage on this bill, to reopen the government.
Also ahead tonight. Could the American taxpayer be getting a $2,000 rebate from tariff revenues? The fine print that is taking shape today, at the White House from President Trump.
Plus, puppies, private gym time, and customized meals. Those are new allegations about the perks that convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell is getting in prison.
As President Trump is handing out pardons to Rudy Giuliani and dozens of others who tried to overturn the election.
More, right after this.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INGRAHAM: Then why are people saying they're anxious about the economy? Why are they saying that?
TRUMP: I don't know that they are saying that. I think polls are fake. We have the greatest economy we've ever had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was President Trump downplaying concerns about the economy tonight, as Americans have been struggling with the cost of groceries, which in September, were 1.4 percent higher than they were, when President Trump took office, back in January.
Here's what the White House National Economic Council Director, Kevin Hassett said, when I pressed him on where this data that the White House is relying on is coming from today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: When the President says that grocery prices are down, what numbers is he basing that off? Given, that's not true, and even Marjorie Taylor Greene has acknowledged that it's not accurate.
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Right. Well, I guess the question -- inflation is down. It's one of those things that very often when people talk about economics, they slip derivatives, as we say. And so, the point is that inflation is way down. It averaged 5 percent under Joe Biden. It's about -- running at about 2.5 percent right now.
And the thing though, is that people's purchasing power dropped by more than $3,000, because of the inflation over the last four years. It's up by about $1,200, this year. And so, purchasing power is improving, but we haven't closed the entire gap, and that's why people still feel the need of the higher price.
COLLINS: But grocery prices are up. You do acknowledge that?
HASSETT: Well, not everything. I mean, egg prices are down. We used to talk a lot about those.
COLLINS: I think energy -- but that's--
HASSETT: In fact, it was your first question here at the White House.
COLLINS: But do you acknowledge--
HASSETT: It was--
COLLINS: And yes -- on the wholesale prices?
HASSETT: Wait, why wouldn't you cover the lower egg prices?
COLLINS: About wholesale prices. We certainly have covered that. Energy as well. But grocery prices are up about 1.4 percent since Trump took office.
[21:25:00]
HASSETT: Right, which is a big decline -- a big decline in the rate of inflation and grocery prices.
COLLINS: But the President's saying that they're down. And they're up.
HASSETT: Inflation is down, is what he means.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: To be clear, inflation is far below the crisis level of 9 percent, that rate that it hit during the summer of 2022. Inflation has been on the rise again, though lately, and prices rose 3 percent in September, over the last 12 months. That's the fastest pace since January. And inflation is not virtually nonexistent, as the President has stated multiple times.
Tonight, my political sources are:
Van Jones, who is a former Obama administration official.
And David Urban, who is a former Trump campaign adviser.
And so David, obviously, I think one question people have is, how the President addresses something that he ran on and pledged to take care of when he was in office. But how does he address something if he keeps saying it's not even an issue?
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Yes, Kaitlan, well, I think it's definitional. As you had that little back-and-forth with Kevin Hassett there, tell you how you look at things, right?
Whether inflation is down, prices are slightly -- slightly down, real purchasing power may be up a bit, it's -- but what really matters, as Van knows, from sitting next to me on those nights when Democrats lose, is that how American people feel at home?
How do the people feel at home who are sitting around their kitchen table with their checkbooks? How do people feel when they're checking out of the grocery store? That's what matters. Poll numbers don't matter. Those numbers that matter are how Americans feel.
And so, if they -- if they're told that real purchasing power is growing and inflation is down, but yet they feel differently? That's the most important thing, and Republicans need to pay attention to that, because Democrats have gotten spanked on it time and time again. Republicans were the beneficiaries. And we got to be paying attention to it as we move into 2026, and surely 2028. Otherwise, Democrats will steal that issue of affordability right from under our noses.
COLLINS: Well Van, I wonder what you make of that, and also the President now saying that he's going to send these $2,000 checks to Americans from tariffs that they've collected. He said, A dividend of at least $2000 a person (not including high income people) will be paid to everyone.
Erica York, who is the Vice President of the Federal Tax Policy at the Tax Foundation said, If the President sent $2,000 checks to the 150 million people who make less than $100,000, it would cost $300 billion. Even though the tariffs are only projected to raise about $217 billion annually.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Look, he's got to do something. I'm not going to turn down the check if it gets to me, and nobody -- no American will. But why is he talking about this stuff? It's because he looks terrible right now.
Right now, you've got Americans who are suffering. And for him to -- he's playing this very badly. To say that America is just making this up? People are hurting and uncertain, economically, right now.
And if you look at him, what's he doing? He's gallivanting all around the world, trying to get a Nobel Peace Prize. He's tearing up the White House to put in gold toilets. He's enriching himself with crypto dollars. And he's hanging out with trillionaires who want to basically use technology to take everybody's job, and give people's jobs to robots and AIs.
This does not look like the working-class-friend President that he ran as. And if somebody doesn't pull his coat and tell him, Dude, you look terrible, and the stuff you're saying right now makes no sense to most people? He's going to hand us this issue. I hope he stays exactly where he is.
Now, if he wants to send me a check? I'll take it. I'm not mad about that.
But the reason that he's talking about this is because he's got to find some economic populism to get back to. Because for the past year, the economic populist dude was gone, and the global -- globetrotter trillionaire friend was hanging out in the White House, tearing it up.
COLLINS: Yes, Van, I don't -- I don't think you're getting that check, but we'll see what happens.
But on this, David -- and I want to note right now, because we've been tracking this vote closely all night. We're watching -- we're watching Senator Susan Collins--
URBAN: We know he's not getting that check.
COLLINS: We're watching Senator Susan Collins, on the right side of the screen. The Senate has just finally passed this bill to reopen the government. Obviously, now it's got to go to the House, as those members are making their way here to Washington. But this is a huge step forward in ending this 41-day government shutdown.
And everyone keeps saying, Democrats are caving, that they've lost their power they had on this.
David Urban, though, I do wonder, by not solving the subsidy issue or coming up with a solution to it, is this, in the end, going to benefit Democrats, potentially? Could Republicans have taken care of this and not had it as an energizing issue for Democrats?
URBAN: No, I think, look, I'm pretty consistent on this point. This whole crisis exists because of one person, and one person only, Chuck Schumer.
If Chuck Schumer would have decided to go differently on this CR, and said, Hey, we're going to go with clean CR. We want to have a discussion about health care, subsidies, health care prices, moving forward, we'd like a vote on a date certain. Otherwise this is going to hang around Republicans' necks like a millstone? I'm pretty certain he could have gotten there.
[21:30:00]
Unfortunately, Chuck Schumer decided to not do that. He decided to hold his breath, hold his caucus together, and say, We're going to win this.
Six weeks later, Democrats walk away with nothing, other than a vote certain on a bill which I'm sure is going to pass -- not pass, because all it does is throw more money at a problem, and continues to increase these health care costs, which are untenable.
You just can't throw money at it. You have to try to bend that curve. You heard Speaker Johnson talk about it. You're heard the President talk about it. I think there is space there for some sort of deal. But just throwing money at it isn't going to make anything better.
COLLINS: Van, what do you say to that?
JONES: I see it differently. Look, right now, Democrats are going to kick each other, and tear each other up, and be mad at each other. But when the smoke clears for most Americans, something has been proven here. Republicans are just not that into Americans right now. I mean, how much pain were the Republicans willing to let Americans suffer, so they didn't have to--
URBAN: Oh. Come on.
JONES: They're just not -- they're just not that into you, America. They were willing to let planes fall out the sky. They were willing to let children starve. They were willing to let federal workers get evicted from their houses. Rather than sit down and cut a deal on health care. Like everything -- everything that David Urban just said is correct. There's a smarter, better way to do health care. And an opportunity was put forward, this past six weeks, to sit down talk about it. Republicans didn't do it. They were willing -- Donald Trump and Republicans were willing to let planes fall out the sky, and children starve, before they came to the table.
So, when Democrats get finished beating themselves up, look at the tattoo you just put on the Republican Party. They don't care about your health care. And so, I think take the win on this, Democrats, and keep moving.
URBAN: Yes--
JONES: You had a big -- you had 7 million people in the streets--
URBAN: Yes, but Van--
JONES: I'll give you -- I'll give your turn.
But you had 7 million people in the streets. That's a good thing. You kicked their butts last week when it comes to the vote. That's a good thing. And you just exposed these guys, as not caring about regular Americans. I think that's a good couple weeks for Democrats. But we're still going to be mad at each other about it, for no reason.
COLLINS: Go ahead, David.
URBAN: Yes, I would just say quickly, Van, to your point. Listen, those subsidies were put in place during COVID. We had the entire Obama administration to discuss these things and to talk about it, yet no -- excuse me, I'm sorry -- the Biden administration to talk about these things about the Obama health care subsidies. Nobody chose to bring it up, then. Unfortunately -- they kicked the can down the road, knowing that it was tough to do.
And only one person is to blame for the Americans suffering here. Chuck Schumer.
JONES: Donald Trump.
COLLINS: OK. We'll leave it at that.
Van Jones. David Urban. Thank you both for joining us here tonight.
JONES: Right.
COLLINS: Up next. As the House is on its way back to Washington, is Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, getting special treatment in prison? A key House Democrat says, that is what a whistleblower told him. I'm going to speak to that Congressman, right after this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: And THE SOURCE is back on Capitol Hill tonight, where a whistleblower is telling the top Democrat, on the House Judiciary Committee, that Jeffrey Epstein accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, is getting special treatment in prison, and actively preparing a commutation application.
In a letter, from Congressman Jamie Raskin, addressed directly to President Trump, Raskin says, The whistleblower at Maxwell's new prison camp alleges that her extraordinary treatment includes customized meals delivered directly to her, visits to the prison exercise area after hours with a prison guard escort, and even access to a service dog in training to play with.
This whistleblower also claims that one top prison official complained that he is, quote, Sick of having to be Maxwell's b-word.
I'll note that CNN has not independently verified the whistleblower's claims.
But my source on this tonight is Congressman Jamie Raskin.
And Congressman, on this whistleblower, I think a lot of people want to know, what else they had to say to you.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, the whistleblower made clear that Ghislaine Maxwell is just in a completely different category than every other prisoner. She gets essentially room service behind bars. She can use the shower. She can use the gym whenever she wants to. She gets special treatment there.
And unlike other prisoners, who have to communicate with people outside of the prison, through the unreliable and very slow mail system, she's actually getting messages sent through the warden, to the people that she wants to communicate with. And the warden is actually offering her the opportunity to communicate on legal matters with people outside of the prison, through the warden. So, it's a pretty extraordinary situation.
Of course, her presence in that camp facility itself is completely astonishing, given that they had never had a sex offender before, and sex offenders were not allowed in that camp. But she was allowed in, and she got in pretty much on an overnight basis, after she met with Todd Blanche.
She was subpoenaed by the Oversight Committee, on July 23rd, after a vote on July 22nd.
And it was on July 24th that Todd Blanche, who had been Donald Trump's personal criminal defense lawyer, now working for the DOJ, as the number-two person, went over to meet her. Not in order to find out what she knew, in terms of getting other people to be investigated, who were involved in the billion and a half dollar international child sex ring, but rather to find out what she would say about Donald Trump.
[21:40:00] And he pronounced himself, satisfied, when she said that she had never seen Donald Trump in any compromising position with young women or girls. In fact, she'd never seen Epstein in some compromising position--
COLLINS: Yes.
RASKIN: --with underage women or girls.
So anyway, he liked what -- he liked what he heard. And then suddenly, she got this transfer.
COLLINS: Yes, and we've asked the White House about that, and Todd Blanche himself.
But can I ask you on the whistleblower? Did you speak to this person directly?
RASKIN: Well, I don't want to get into any more depth on it. But I would say, this is a person who is in a position to know everything that was reported to us.
COLLINS: And do you think there's more to come out about--
RASKIN: Absolutely in a position to know.
COLLINS: --about how she's being treated and -- or the treatment she's getting, I should say?
RASKIN: I do. Well, one of the other things that came up was that Ghislaine Maxwell is actively seeking a commutation, a pardon from the President, right now.
And I learned from somebody else, a Republican, that there's a lot of chatter that he just pardoned 77 people, who participated in different ways, in his attempt to lie about the 2020 presidential election, his attempt to overthrow the election, and all of that -- some people are seeing as a smokescreen to get people talking about that, because none of these people are facing federal prosecution, they've already been disbarred or faced other kinds of charges.
But all of that is really meant to distract people from what may be a pardon, forthcoming, for Ghislaine Maxwell.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously this is a prison -- a prison camp, that she's serving out with people like Jen Shah, Elizabeth Holmes, other high-profile people that are there.
Can I ask you, though, just on Ghislaine Maxwell, overall. I know you want to speak to the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche on this. Whether or not he'll do that seems unlikely, as you -- as you know.
But this does come as the House is on its way back here to Washington. And Speaker Johnson told Jake Tapper, earlier, that he is planning to swear in Congresswoman-elect Adelita Grijalva this week. She is expected to be the 218th signature to force a vote when it comes to releasing those Epstein files.
Do you believe the Republicans, who had crossed and said that they would vote for this, they would be a yes on this? Do you think that they are still committed to doing so tonight?
RASKIN: Well, I believe that they are, because I know them, I think they take very seriously the idea that there would be this massive international prostitution, child sex trafficking operation, conducted by Jeffrey Epstein, in conjunction with a lot of very rich and powerful people, including Prince Andrew, who lost his royal title because of this.
And so, if they can deal with this problem, or at least begin to deal with this problem, in a constitutional monarchy in England, I would hope that a constitutional democracy could deal with it.
One of the things that I'm hoping for, Kaitlan, is that we will have a bipartisan resolution to tell Donald Trump not to offer a pardon, clemency, commutation, of any kind, to this convicted child sex offender, and not to, in any way, alter her sentence. I mean, this is one we learned about in advance, that this is going on behind the scenes, and we should do everything in our power to state, on behalf of Congress, We are opposed to this.
And she's, by the way, completely unrepentant. She has never come to terms with what she did. She did not testify at her own trial, and she continues to lie about what took place.
COLLINS: Congressman Jamie Raskin, if you find out more from this whistleblower, please let us know. Thank you for joining tonight.
RASKIN: You bet.
COLLINS: And up next. The President, as the Congressman mentioned, there, has just pardoned a number of his own allies who are involved in those efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Despite his efforts, there's a reason those on the list, though, could still face charges.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President Trump has just pardoned a long list of allies who tried to overturn the 2020 election, including some who were his co- defendants in the Georgia election interference case.
So earlier today, when I was at the White House, I called Geoff Duncan. He's now running for Governor of Georgia, as a Democrat. But he was the State's Republican Lieutenant Governor, back in 2021, when Trump famously called the state's top election official and asked him to find 11,780 votes to declare him the winner.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: So Geoff Duncan, when you saw that President Trump had pardoned Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, John Eastman, Mark Meadows, so many of these people who were the alternate electors or worked to help overturn the 2020 election with him, I wonder what your reaction was.
GEOFF DUNCAN, FORMER GEORGIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR (On Telephone): I think it's just another glaring example of how far Donald Trump's worth willing to go to just continue to build a narrative of lawlessness. I mean, it's just -- I mean, whether it's this or that, I mean, there's just no guardrails for him.
And these folks literally tried to lie, cheat and steal an election. They tried to discount millions of Georgia voters. They tried to discount millions of U.S. voters, across the country, to try to swing an election.
[21:50:00]
And, look, if you're -- if you're friends with Donald Trump, if you're business partners with Donald Trump, things are going pretty well for you right now.
COLLINS: Geoff Duncan, thank you for hopping on the phone with us.
DUNCAN (On Telephone): Thanks, Kaitlan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And joining me tonight is Carol Leonnig, my next source, a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and also the author of the new book, "Injustice: How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department."
And it's so great to have you here.
Because just given your wealth of knowledge, when it comes to reporting on the Justice Department, which you covered for a long time, for The Washington Post, now MSNBC. As you dove deeper in this book, I wonder what you made of this pardon for the 77 people, that also explicitly stated Donald Trump was not one of the people who was being pardoned today.
CAROL LEONNIG, MSNBC SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, CO-AUTHOR, "INJUSTICE": Well, the pardons were pretty broad, as you reported, Kaitlan, and striking to me.
Because what we reported in our book, and revealed for the first time in "Injustice," is that, starting in December of 2020, investigators, in a little-known federal agency, were worrying that this looked like a crime.
That these fake elector certificates, in seven swing states, were signed by multiple Republican officials, who were fraudulently claiming that they were electors for their state, and they were fraudulently claiming that Donald Trump had won the election in their state, and they were also submitting this as if they had been chosen as electors. And none of those things were true.
So again, starting December 2020 and, ultimately, it becomes a source of an investigation, by the Department of Justice, in 2022. It looks at mail fraud, wire fraud, an effort to interfere in a free and fair election.
So, the pardons are pretty broad, in trying to rewrite history, and say, None of this was fraudulent. When the evidence is overwhelming that it was.
COLLINS: Yes, and just given all of your reporting on the Justice Department, and so much of it that is in this book. They're being pardoned here. They're facing state charges, though. I mean, this doesn't protect them or insulate them from that. But I wonder if you think there's something deeper underneath it.
LEONNIG: For the last week, Kaitlan, we have watched, and when I say week, the last seven days, we have watched a drumbeat of social media posting by MAGA and Trump allies, saying, The election interference case, which they refer to as Arctic Frost, it's FBI codename, was this weaponized effort by the Biden DOJ to come after Republicans.
And I've found that very interesting, because it's such a rewrite, again, of reality. The reality is that all these subpoenas were issued for Republicans, because Republican Party officials signed them.
When this investigation was finally opened by the FBI, in April of 2022, the DOJ of Merrick Garland and Joe Biden was extremely -- extremely reluctant to go into this area. But when it finally began, the reason that they were looking and subpoenaing all these Republicans, is because they had signed these election certificates, and they want to interview them and find out, Who told you to do this, who thought this was a good idea? And they ultimately found out--
COLLINS: Yes.
LEONNIG: --that it was Rudy Giuliani.
COLLINS: I think that's a great point in terms of why these people were targeted, in terms of how that's being framed now.
And you mentioned the Biden Justice Department, and then-Attorney General Merrick Garland. You write in your book about how he tried so hard to be apolitical, that it actually slowed down the January 6 investigation.
You say that his caution and his strict boundaries began attracting a cadre of internal critics who worried an obsession with safeguarding the perception of an apolitical DOJ was actually interfering with its core mission in a moment with little historical precedent.
LEONNIG: Yes, that's right, Kaitlan. There was an understandable and noble goal that Merrick Garland had, which was after the first Trump presidency, where Donald Trump was, you know -- and you watched it too, battering Bill Barr to indict Jim Comey, to indict Andy McCabe, to free Roger Stone, to dismiss the charges, successfully, as he asked for, of Michael Flynn, when all that was in the rear view? Merrick Garland's noble goal was, Hey, let's not be political. Let's restore trust in this amazing, venerable institution.
But the problem for investigators, who worked for him, and admired him, was that the mantra of the DOJ is, pursue the evidence of a crime without fear or favor. And they started to feel as though there was caution and fear, instead of just treating Donald Trump the way you would anyone else, who appeared to be implicated in a crime. In this case, a historic crime.
COLLINS: Carol Leonnig. The new book is "Injustice: How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department." It's so great to have you tonight. Thank you for joining. And congratulations.
LEONNIG: Thanks, Kaitlan.
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Up next here. What the President just said tonight about those reports that first lady Melania Trump doesn't like the demolition of the East Wing to make room for the multimillion-dollar ballroom. What he had to say.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump defended bulldozing the East Wing of the White House to make way for the $350 million ballroom that is being built, and also addressed first lady Melania Trump's silence and reported unhappiness on his project.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're going to have the best ballroom anywhere in the world. And I built a lot of them, you know that. You know a lot of them. This will be one of the greatest ballrooms in the world.
INGRAHAM: There was a report that Melania didn't love this idea. Is that -- is that true?
TRUMP: Well, she loved her little, tiny office, and that -- but you know what? In about -- she's very smart. In about one day she think -- if you would ask her now, she says, it's great.
[22:00:00]
But the East Wing, that building was renovated 20 times, including adding a floor to the top, which was terrible. It was out of common brick, little tiny windows. It looked like hell. It had nothing to do with the original building. And I didn't want to sacrifice a great ballroom for an OK ballroom by leaving it right smack in the middle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: On that note, thanks so much for joining us, here on Capitol Hill tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts now.
