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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Republicans & Democrats Staring Down 2026 Midterms; Trump Leans Heavily On His Pardon Power In Second Term; New Movie Depicts 18- Minute Countdown To Nuclear Impact. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 28, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TIG NOTARO, COMEDIAN: But this experience with Andrea really made me understand the importance of really, talking about death, rather than live my life, fearing death, and trying to kick it away at every possible--
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Yes.
NOTARO: --move I'm making, because it's coming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: The news continues right here on CNN.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, on a special edition of THE SOURCE, we're taking you through President Trump's second term in office so far, with an exclusive look inside the White House.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
10 months and eight days ago, President Trump made his historic return to the White House. What came next has been nothing short of remarkable.
As Trump returned to the Oval Office, I returned to my post at the White House, on a bitterly cold but sunny afternoon, last January, to start covering the second chapter in a presidency that has already reshaped the federal government. It has pushed the boundaries of presidential power, and waged an extraordinary retribution campaign, all at lightning speed.
THE SOURCE has brought you a front-row seat to moments like this one, when that blowup of epic proportions happened inside the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You're gambling with World War III.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: What you're -- what you're speaking about --
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What are you speaking about?
TRUMP: And what you're doing is very disrespectful -- disrespectful to the country, this country--
ZELENSKYY: I'm really respect your--
TRUMP: --that's backed you far more than a lot of people said they should have.
ZELENSKYY: I'm really respect--
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Have you said, Thank you, once, this entire meeting?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of times.
VANCE: No. In this entire meeting--
ZELENSKYY: Even today.
VANCE: --have you said, Thank you?
ZELENSKYY: Even today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Here's an exclusive look at what we saw covering what has already been called the most unprecedented presidency in 250 years.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Is there any chance of that happening in your view?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Authoritarianism.
COLLINS: Donald Trump has now been in office for 100 days. And as someone who covered both his first term, and now his second, one of the biggest things that stands out is how much faster he's moving this time around.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is a hostile and political act by Amazon.
TRUMP: Any questions?
COLLINS: How did your call with Jeff Bezos go? How did your call with Jeff Bezos go?
TRUMP: Great. Jeff Bezos was very nice.
ON SCREEN TEXT: May.
SEAN DUFFY, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION, ACTING NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Sean Duffy here. COLLINS: We just heard from Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, as Newark Airport in New Jersey is in total meltdown right now.
DUFFY: The new runway is going to come online, or the runway under construction is going to come online in the middle of June.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standby.
COLLINS: We are in Saudi Arabia right now. We're in Riyadh. Trump's second stop on this trip is Doha. So he will be going and meeting with the very officials who are gifting the Pentagon that plane in just a few days from now.
I actually spoke to the President on Air Force One.
TRUMP: Nothing's going to happen until Putin and I get together, OK? And obviously he wasn't going to go. He was going to go, but he thought I was going to go. He wasn't going if I wasn't there.
COLLINS: Did you ask President Putin to meet with you?
TRUMP: About what?
COLLINS: About Ukraine.
TRUMP: Of course I did. I talked to him about it. I said, When are we going to end this, Vladimir? I've known him for a long time now.
COLLINS: Hi.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: Hey, how are you doing?
COLLINS: Nice to meet you. I'm Kaitlan.
Looking at your April 10th comments, when you were inside the Cabinet meeting, you said, By September, we will know what has caused the autism epidemic, and we'll be able to eliminate those exposures.
KENNEDY JR.: Well, we'll have some of the information to get. The most solid information, it will probably take us another six months.
COLLINS: OK, so parents should not expect to know what causes autism by September anymore?
KENNEDY JR.: We'll see.
ON SCREEN TEXT: June.
LEAVITT: Good afternoon, everybody.
COLLINS: Karoline.
LEAVITT: Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Two questions for you as well. On the big, beautiful bill, you said recently that it is, quote, blatantly wrong to say that it adds to the deficit. You essentially said that an estimate from the Congressional Budget Office and other scorekeepers, you believe, are wrong. But Republicans like Ron Johnson and Rand Paul disagree. They are saying that it will add to the deficit. That is their concern.
Is the White House's position that those two Republican senators are, quote, blatantly wrong?
LEAVITT: It is.
COLLINS: You've always said that you don't believe Iran to be able to have a nuclear weapon. But how close do you personally think that they were to getting one? Because Tulsi Gabbard--
TRUMP: Very close.
COLLINS: Tulsi Gabbard testified in March that the intelligence community said Iran wasn't building a nuclear weapon.
TRUMP: I don't care what she said. I think they were very close to having one.
COLLINS: What's facing the President is a critical decision, and that is whether or not to get the United States more militarily involved between what's happening between Israel and Iran.
Does that mean you haven't made a decision yet on what to do?
TRUMP: Well--
COLLINS: Or have you--
TRUMP: --I have ideas as to what to do, but I haven't made a final. I like to make the final decision one second before it's due.
[21:05:00]
Iran's key nuclear enrichment facilities have been completely and totally obliterated.
You should really say how great our soldiers and our warriors are.
COLLINS: I think everyone appreciates our soldiers and our warriors.
Are you relying on Israeli intelligence for your assessment--
TRUMP: No. No.
COLLINS: --of the impact of the strikes?
TRUMP: The document said it could be limited or it could be very severe. They really didn't know. The site is obliterated.
COLLINS: Can you talk about the Alligator Alcatraz visit tomorrow? Are you going?
TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: Great facility. Can't wait for it to open. We'll put aliens in there as soon as we can.
ON SCREEN TEXT: July.
COLLINS: I'm standing here outside the Blair House where Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is inside. He's got several meetings with top advisers to President Trump. Just a short walk away, they are protesting the Prime Minister's visit here to Washington. One thing that we know is expected to be discussed is the end of the war in Gaza.
Apparently, the Cabinet meeting has already started, and we'll get in there after it's already begun, and they've started going around the room.
Last week, the Pentagon paused some shipments of weapons to Ukraine. Did you approve of that pause?
TRUMP: We wanted to put defensive weapons because Putin is not -- he's not treating human beings right. He's killing too many people.
COLLINS: So who ordered the pause last week?
TRUMP: I don't know. Why don't you tell me?
The first lady and I are here in Texas to express the love and support and the anguish of our entire nation. We mourn for every single life that was swept away in the flood.
Epstein was always a very controversial guy. I never had the privilege of going to his island.
COLLINS: You said Jeffrey Epstein was stealing young women from your spa. Did that raise alarm bells for you?
TRUMP: Be quiet.
COLLINS: Earlier this year, Virginia Giuffre died by suicide at her farm in Western Australia.
I want to bring in the members of Virginia Roberts Giuffre's family.
When you hear the word, Stolen, used to describe what happened to your sister, when she was recruited away and sex trafficked, I wonder what goes through your mind.
SKY ROBERTS, BROTHER OF VIRGINIA GIUFFRE: She wasn't stolen. She was preyed upon.
ON SCREEN TEXT: August.
COLLINS: Were you aware of and did you personally approve the prison transfer for Ghislaine Maxwell--
TRUMP: I didn't know about it at all. No. I read about it just like you did.
COLLINS: Do you believe that she's credible? Your Deputy Attorney General sat down with her recently.
TRUMP: Todd Blanche is one of the most highly-respected people you'll ever meet.
This is Liberation Day in D.C., and we're placing the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department under direct federal control, and I'm deploying the National Guard to help reestablish law, order and public safety.
COLLINS: And on what's happening in D.C., with the federal takeover. Who is in charge of the MPD right now?
LEAVITT: The chain of command is as such: the President of the United States, the Attorney General of the United States, our DEA administrator, Terry Cole.
COLLINS: President Trump and President Putin just left the stage here behind me in Anchorage, taking no questions from reporters, as President Trump made clear, no deal had been reached between the two leaders, certainly not the deal that he came here to get, which was a ceasefire on Russia's war in Ukraine.
TRUMP: Next should be Chicago, because, as you all know, Chicago is a killing field right now.
I'm not walking in Baltimore right now. Baltimore is a hellhole.
COLLINS: You actually recently moved to deputize Customs and Border Protection officers recently, to be able to patrol national park sites in Washington. Why was that necessary?
DOUG BURGUM, INTERIOR SECRETARY: We've been working in collaboration on law enforcement, both on the border and on enforcing laws inside our country, on federal lands.
ON SCREEN TEXT: September.
REPORTER: How did you find out over the weekend that you were dead?
TRUMP: I've been very active, actually, over the weekend. I didn't hear that one. That's pretty serious stuff.
REPORTER: Yes.
COLLINS: According to a CNN review of the President's daily schedule, this was actually the longest stretch that he has gone without speaking to reporters, on camera, since he took office again back in January.
BEAU MASON, COMMISSIONER, UTAH DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: Today at approximately 12:20 Mountain Standard Time, political influencer Charlie Kirk was shot at an event, at the Utah Valley University.
COLLINS: It's just an incredibly dark day for everyone.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Now is a time of reflection for America. We can stop this.
COLLINS: Anything in the investigation or anything on the latest that you've heard from the FBI or Kash Patel?
TRUMP: No. They've reported to me so far pretty much what you -- seeing in the news is what it is. They have a virtual manhunt out there. So we'll see what happens.
You can see they're professional agitators. I had one the other night. I had four. Started to scream when I got into a restaurant.
(PROTESTERS CHANTING "FREE PALESTINE")
TRUMP: And I've asked Pam to look into that in terms of criminal RICO, because they should be put in jail.
(PROTESTERS CHANTING)
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: Were those women in the restaurant inflicting harm, or terror, or damage, by protesting the President of the United States?
TODD BLANCHE, UNITED STATES DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: So, you're asking whether there's damage done by four individuals, screaming and yelling at the President of our United States while he's trying to have dinner.
COLLINS: This is what it looks like outside, where we have seen some protesters.
President Trump likely has not seen the protests himself unless he's been watching any of the television footage. He's been safely ensconced inside the walls of Windsor.
TRUMP: Tylenol during pregnancy can be associated with a very increased risk of autism.
Don't take it. Don't take it.
COLLINS: We are following major breaking news tonight, as former FBI Director, James Comey, is now the first senior government official to face charges and one of President Trump's biggest grievances. The 2016 Russia investigation.
We're just a couple hours away from the deadline for government funding. And right now, White House officials are bracing for the potential for a government shutdown.
Is your argument tonight that fighting for extending these subsidies is worth shutting the government down?
SANDERS: If we allow the Republicans to simply not negotiate, and to throw 15 million people off of health care? That will cause even more harm.
ON SCREEN TEXT: October.
COLLINS: The President said yesterday that Democrats will be to blame if federal workers lose their jobs. Wouldn't that be the President's call to lay people off?
LEAVITT: These conversations about layoffs would not be happening in the White House today, if not for the Democrat shutdown.
COLLINS: The Supreme Court is back in session. They rejected an appeal by Ghislaine Maxwell to overturn her conviction. Her only chance at getting out of prison is a pardon from you.
TRUMP: I wouldn't consider it or not consider it. I don't know anything about it.
COLLINS: But she was convicted of child sex trafficking.
TRUMP: Yes, I mean, I'm going to have to take a look at it. I'd have to ask DOJ.
I was just given a note by the Secretary of State, saying that we're very close to a deal in the Middle East.
COLLINS: For the first time in two years, there are no living hostages in the hands of Hamas. This ceasefire that has been brokered is holding for now. And today, we've seen the release of 20 Israeli hostages who were still alive and being held in Gaza.
TRUMP: To the best of my knowledge, we've never had a president that solved one war. It will be a great honor to get it done.
COLLINS: Construction is now underway at the White House for President Trump's ballroom. He announced a few months ago that he was planning to build one at the White House.
The New York Times is reporting that your legal team is seeking $230 million from your own Justice Department.
TRUMP: I don't even talk to them about it. All I know is that they would owe me a lot of money. And it's awfully strange to make a decision where I'm paying myself.
ON SCREEN TEXT: November.
COLLINS: If I had put us in a time machine and told you five years ago that Donald Trump was endorsing Andrew Cuomo, over the Republican candidate for mayor in New York City, you might not have believed me. But that is exactly what Donald Trump has just done.
MAYOR-ELECT ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY: Donald Trump, since I know you're watching, I have four words for you.
(CHEERING)
MAMDANI: Turn the volume up.
COLLINS: Mr. President, you seem very frustrated by last night's elections. What are the takeaways from people in this room?
TRUMP: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Press.
COLLINS: Do you personally approve of the deal that's happening right now on Capitol Hill to end the government shutdown?
TRUMP: Well, it depends what deal we're talking about. But if it's a deal I heard about, that's certainly, you know, they want to change the deal a little bit, but I would say so.
It's an honor now to sign this incredible bill and get our country working again. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Up next. Less than a year until the critical 2026 midterm elections. My political sources are here with their hot takes on the issues that they believe will define that battle for control, here in Washington.
Plus, President Trump's pardon spree. What he told me in the White House about one of his most controversial pardons so far.
And a new movie is out showing the country on the brink of nuclear war. Nothing -- not reassuring there. But my source tonight is the film's Oscar-winning director, Kathryn Bigelow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHRYN BIGELOW, DIRECTOR, "A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE," ACADEMY AWARD- WINNING DIRECTOR: We haven't addressed nuclear weapons for decades. And I grew up in the duck and cover era, where we had to hide under our desks. So, it's always been present to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Here in Washington and around the country, Republican and Democratic leaders are entering uncharted territory. That's because the Republican Party is hurling towards a post-Trump reality, as Democrats are looking for strategies to seize on that. It is all leading us to the critical 2026 midterm elections that are now less than a year away.
A lot could happen here. My political sources are here to game it out.
Karen Finney was a senior adviser on Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign.
And Doug Heye was a Republican National Committee communications director.
[21:20:00]
And so, Karen, obviously, this is a moment where, Democrats had those huge elections, earlier this month, and they had this kind of ownership of affordability, something that obviously the White House has been trying to push back against ever since.
How do you want to see Democrats take advantage of this moment?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISER, HILLARY CLINTON'S 2016 CAMPAIGN, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DNC: I think it's important that Democrats continue to keep it hyper-local and really focus on not just kitchen-table issues, but how people are experiencing them in their own communities.
So how you're experiencing that in Virginia, or New Jersey, or Texas, may be a little bit different. But let's make sure we're keeping those conversations directly on the affordability issues that people are experiencing. Whether it's kids going to college, whether it is mortgages and housing prices, energy prices. We know, huge issues in the northeast, obviously coming up with LIHEAP issues.
So, keeping it hyper-local, so that people understand, we're talking about them, we're focused on them, we're focused on the work that's going to change their lives.
COLLINS: Yes, I saw reporting from -- about Jason Crow's message, the Democrat from Colorado, basically saying, Run your race like it's a mayor's race.
FINNEY: It's--
COLLINS: Stay hyper-focused on what's happening at a local level.
And on that front, Doug. I mean, what the government shutdown did do is put health care front and center for so many Americans.
There have been a lot of Republicans who have been asked, What's your proposal? If you don't like the Obamacare subsidies, what do you guys want to do instead? Here's what a few of them have said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDRA SMITH, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: So what would Trumpcare look like?
DR. MEHMET OZ, ADMINISTRATOR FOR THE CENTERS FOR MEDICARE & MEDICAID SERVICES: Well, these are all ideas that we're still working on in part because until the government shutdown formally ends, we don't have all the people in the room, who need to work on these programs.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS HOST: So how quickly do you expect this plan to be rolled out?
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): We're hoping we -- hopefully having some ideas before Christmas, but it may take a little longer than that. COLLINS: But is there like a comprehensive plan that people could look at and decide whether or not they think it's something that Republicans should pass?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): We'll have something within that when -- we'll have a side-to-side bill, when they're come -- when they're come out, when they get their vote on Obamacare subsidies, giving you--
COLLINS: You're going to have a health care bill--
MARSHALL: We will.
COLLINS: --by the second week of December?
MARSHALL: We will.
COLLINS: If the government reopened tonight, would Republicans have a plan to address the Obamacare subsidies?
JOHNSON: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, we do. We have proposals to--
COLLINS: You would have a plan tonight?
JOHNSON: Yes, we could have that ready immediately, yes.
COLLINS: OK. But a proposal's different than a plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Voters are going to say, Aye, where is my plan?
FINNEY: Show me the beef.
DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, RNC: If I had a Magic 8 Ball, I'd shake and it would say, Seems unlikely.
And I say that, because I had flashbacks to my 2014, working in the House of Representatives, where we were going to put an Obamacare replacement bill. We had a whole lot of repeal votes. We were going to put a replacement bill on the floor.
And we got our four committee chairs of jurisdiction. Paul Ryan, you might have heard of him. Dave Camp, you might not have. John Kline and Fred Upton. These were our smarty, smart committee chairs who were going to put good and hard policy work down, and get this -- get this done.
We didn't even get a white paper done. And it's because Republicans really struggle on this issue. They know what they're not for. They really struggle to talk about what they are for, and what they want to do.
FINNEY: It's also--
HEYE: That's a long-term problem for Republicans. FINNEY: It's also an issue to that point, where Democrats have enjoyed more favorability and credibility with the American people for much longer. So, that makes it doubly hard for Republicans to then come with a plan, because Americans are less trusting.
COLLINS: But should Democrats be working with Republicans on this? Because people like Bernie Sanders have said, Obamacare is not perfect.
I read that extending the Obamacare subsidies over the next decade would cost $350 billion.
I mean, it does seem like there is common ground that health care is broken in this country, and that why not have both parties use this moment to fix it?
FINNEY: Sure, but I think there's two things.
Number one, Obamacare was always meant to be a starting point, not the ending point. Remember, President Obama saying that, that this would be a place where hopefully both sides would come together, over the following years, and try to work out some of these issues. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.
And part of that, I think, goes to what Doug was saying, which is, you start talking about things like, Well, what about pre-existing conditions? What about making sure we're covering children?
Republicans don't always know what they're for. They know what they're against. But then that comes up against the very real situations that people face, every single day, when they're dealing with their health care.
COLLINS: Yes, and the subsidies expire at the end of December, as we know.
I mean, I think a lot of those moments that you just saw there, Doug, are going to be replayed. I mean, to Speaker Johnson, and to Senator Roger Marshall, and just to them, they have been saying, We've got to form this. But do they have the time, if they're -- they're not already working on this right now?
HEYE: They do have the time. But time is ticking. If they don't have a bill in two weeks, or by, say, January 20th, that -- it's not a big deal. If they don't have it by State of the Union, or going into spring, it becomes a bigger deal, every week.
And because it's an election year, next year, Congress, they've just put out their schedules, the House and the Senate, this week.
FINNEY: Yes.
HEYE: They're not in town a lot during election year. So, their time to do it is a whole lot less than it otherwise would be.
[21:25:00] COLLINS: But can I -- on this front, going into the elections, because that is going to be looming over everything. I mean, this White House has already been focused on it as well. You both said North Carolina is what you're going to be paying attention to, come 2026, the midterms. How come?
FINNEY: It's one of the states, I think, is important to keep an eye on, because it's a purplish state, bluish, reddish purple. So what happens there, I think, is going to tell us a lot. Ohio, Sherrod Brown's race being another one. In terms of these swing voters, these voters who maybe had voted Democrat in the one election, then maybe voted for Trump in another one. What's happening with those drop-off voters? So watching what's happening with that, that electorate, come 2026, I think, is going to be really important.
HEYE: Yes, the surprise victory for Democrats in 2020? I was surprised. I don't know if you were. Really took the place of what was supposed to be the focus on North Carolina. Clearly, it's coming back. We have a top-tier Senate race.
And one of the new numbers that tells me that this is going to be a real battleground in this year, and also the coming presidential, is if you look at the number of college students, but also HBU (ph) students, who turned out in record numbers in Virginia. North Carolina has 11 of them. They're all over the state. They were turnout machines for Obama in 2008 and 2012. Clearly, if you're a Republican, you've got to figure out, what can you do to overcome that if that tide is coming in your state as well.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point.
Doug Heye. Karen Finney. Great to have you both here as we watch this going closely, going forward.
And still ahead for us. President Trump has been on quite a pardon spree, this year, starting on his first day in office. We're going to dig into the most noteworthy we've seen so far, and what's to come potentially.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Thank you so much, President Trump. Today, you pardoned the founder of Binance. Can you explain why you chose to pardon him, and did it have anything to do with his involvement in your family's--
TRUMP: Which one? Who's that?
COLLINS: The founder of Binance. He has involvement in your own family's crypto business.
TRUMP: The recent one? That's the -- I believe we're talking about the same person, because--
COLLINS: CZ.
TRUMP: --I do pardon a lot of people. I don't know. He was recommended by a lot of people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: President Trump wasted no time, in his second term, using an executive power that comes without any check. The President's pardon power.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They said, Don't talk about the J6 hostages that you're going to be releasing today.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Sir, don't put that in your speech, please.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: I said, but I -- really, I want to put it in my speech. They said, Sir, it won't be unified like it is. It's so beautiful the way it is. And it is getting great reviews.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: During his first term, the President was actually relatively reserved, when it came to his clemency power. That's compared to what we saw Presidents Obama and Biden and how they wielded theirs. Of course, Biden only had one term.
This term though, we've seen President Trump pull a 180, because the White House has presented this uptick, as a response to what they saw by his predecessor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: He was very clear when he came into office that he was most interested in looking at pardoning individuals who were abused and used by the Biden Department of Justice, and were over-prosecuted by a weaponized DOJ.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But the trend that runs through this term's pardon list has more to do with the current occupant of the Oval Office than the previous one. Other presidents have faced controversy over pardoning political allies, that's for sure.
But this president has overwhelmingly pardoned people who have helped him, personally. More than 80 percent of the people on the receiving end of the President's pardon power are either involved in storming the Capitol, in his name, or trying to overturn the 2020 election on his behalf.
So many of this term's pardons have not only been transactional, they've also predominantly happened outside what is the normal pardon process. There's an analysis that was done by ProPublica that found only 10 of the roughly 1,600 people who were granted pardons had even filed petitions to the Office of the Pardon Attorney.
Now, there's no law that requires the president to follow any traditional process when it comes to his pardon power. He can wield it how he wants. And this is how the White House has described those procedures, when it comes to this White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: That's why we have a very thorough review process here that moves with the Department of Justice and the White House Counsel's Office. There's a whole team of qualified lawyers who look at every single pardon request that ultimately make their way up to the President of the United States. He's the ultimate, final decision- maker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: When I asked him about one of his most recent high-profile pardons, the President's response, though, raised more questions than it did answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Thank you so much, President Trump. Today, you pardoned the founder of Binance. Can you explain why you chose to pardon him, and did it have anything to do with his involvement in your family's--
TRUMP: Which one? Who's that?
COLLINS: The founder of Binance. He has involvement in your own family's crypto business.
TRUMP: The recent one? That's the -- I believe we're talking about the same person, because--
COLLINS: CZ.
TRUMP: --I do pardon a lot of people. I don't know. He was recommended by a lot of people. A lot of people say that -- are you talking about the crypto person?
COLLINS: Yes.
TRUMP: A lot of people say that he wasn't guilty of anything. He served four months in jail, and they say that he was not guilty of anything, that what he did.
COLLINS: He admitted to those crimes.
TRUMP: Well, you don't know much about crypto. You know nothing about -- you know nothing about nothing. You are fake news.
[21:35:00]
But let me just tell you that he was somebody that, as I was told -- I don't know. I don't believe I've ever met him. But I've been told by -- a lot of support. He had a lot of support. And they said that what he did is not even a crime. It wasn't a crime. That he was persecuted by the Biden administration. And so, I gave him a pardon, at the request of a lot of very good people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My legal source is CNN Legal Analyst, and former federal prosecutor, Elliot Williams.
And Elliot. I wonder what your take is, not just given that answer there, but overall, how the President has handled pardons, this term so far
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Not particularly in a way that we should be proud of, Kaitlan.
But let's be clear. The problem is not Donald Trump. The problem is the pardon power. The problem is generations of Congresses have chosen not to legislate in a way that sort of provides guidance or some kind of guardrails on presidents.
And you'll keep seeing pardons, like the one you were asking him about, and other ones that just simply don't seem to be true acts of clemency, and are just kind of abuses by presidents. But that's -- you know, you talked about this in your tease. It's, the power is just vast, and presidents are free to do whatever they want, and that's what Trump is doing.
COLLINS: Yes, and we saw, obviously, a lot of people say President Biden did that, moments before he left office, when he pardoned a lot of his allies and his family members at the last minute.
And we knew this wouldn't be the typical pardon process. I think we got hints of this, back in March.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: That's when the pardon attorney was fired. And we interviewed her.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: She told me it came after she had questions about pardoning Mel Gibson.
Listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: You believe that you were -- you were fired because you did not recommend Mel Gibson have this ability restored. Why do you believe that?
LIZ OYER, FORMER DOJ PARDON ATTORNEY: Well, I was not given any reason for my termination. But what I can tell you is that within hours of my decision not to do that, I was escorted out of my office by DOJ security officers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I wonder what you make of that moment there, given what we've seen since.
WILLIAMS: Yes, it's a remarkable moment. And we should really underscore how important the Office of the Pardon Attorney is, or quite frankly, was, when it was functional.
Now, again, as you've said, and as we've been talking about, the president's power is the pardon. It's his and nobody else's.
However, there's a tremendous amount of expertise that is required for properly exercising clemency. The Pardon Attorney, that office would look into, What did prosecutors say? What did victims say? What was the nature of the crime? And let's really do a proper legal and factual and even policy analysis of whether this is an appropriate case in which clemency should be exercised.
And so, yes, even though the president has the right to pardon whoever he wants? At least putting some experts around him, who can sort of restrain that power, is and was a good thing.
COLLINS: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And it's a profound tragedy that they've gutted that office.
COLLINS: Well, in that front, I mean, the person who's replaced the woman that everyone just heard from there, Liz Oyer, is Ed Martin, who is a huge ally of Trump's, that has been trying to get the people he wants investigated and indicted, investigated and indicted--
WILLIAMS: Yes.
COLLINS: --and has been pretty controversial inside the Department of Justice, even, given the way he goes directly to Trump, with a lot of his stuff, instead of, maybe through the Attorney General, Pam Bondi.
WILLIAMS: Yes. And moreover, we should also note that he also has the job, I believe, as the head of the President's Weaponization Task Force, or the Justice Department's Weaponization Task Force.
It's not just pardons and clemency. It's all part of a broader push, about basically grievance on the part of President Trump, starting with January 6, and what he regards, or what the administration regards, as the abuses of the past. And so, we are in a new chapter of clemency in American government here, that isn't just about what the Framers intended, which was times in which the government went too far in prosecuting someone, then ought to be dialed back.
COLLINS: Yes, that's safe to say.
Elliot Williams, thank you, as always.
WILLIAMS: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And coming up for us here. It is a heart-stopping thriller on Netflix, where the top levels of the U.S. government are scrambling to respond to a missile with minutes to spare. The director and the screenwriter of "A House of Dynamite" is going to join me to discuss, next.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Russian President Vladimir Putin is now floating the possibility of carrying out fresh nuclear tests, in reaction to President Trump's recent call for the Pentagon to resume nuclear testing after a 33-year pause.
A Kremlin spokesperson cautioned to CNN, that Russia is, quote, just investigating whether it is necessary to start preparations, noting that they are still bound to that international treaty banning nuclear test, which the United States is also part of.
Now, this is all coming as a new Netflix film, "A House of Dynamite," explores the perils of nuclear weapons, and how top U.S. leaders, from the President on down, have scrambled to react to a foreign missile threat to America with only 18 minutes before impact.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IDRIS ELBA, ACTOR, "A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE": (As President of the United States): Reid, are you still there?
JARED HARRIS, ACTOR, "A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE": (As Secretary of Defense Reid Baker): Yes, yes. Yes, I'm here.
Oh.
Yes, I'm here. I'm here.
ELBA: (As President of the United States): What do you make of all this?
HARRIS: (As Secretary of Defense Reid Baker): I really don't know.
[21:45:00]
ELBA: (As President of the United States): You don't know? You're running the (bleep) Pentagon. They had one briefing when I was sworn in. One. And they told me that's the protocol. They told me the same thing. (bleep), I got a whole (bleep) briefing on when a Supreme Court justice dies. Replacements. Replacement for what happens if the replacement drops out. (bleep), what to do if the -- if the original guy crawls out of his grave and wants his job back.
HARRIS: (As Secretary of Defense Reid Baker): We focused on more likely scenarios. Things we might actually have to deal with.
ELBA: (As President of the United States): Yes, well we're dealing with this.
HARRIS: (As Secretary of Defense Reid Baker): Best I can remember, we follow the steps. We -- we're following procedure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My sources tonight are, Academy Award-winning filmmaker, Kathryn Bigelow, the director of "A House of Dynamite." And the film's writer and producer, Noah Oppenheim.
And it's so great to have both of you here.
I loved this movie.
BIGELOW: Thank you.
COLLINS: I was so stressed, watching this movie, especially when it came to the ending, which we'll get to.
But the fact that this movie is now debuting, at a time when the President is talking about nuclear testing, we're hearing Russia respond to this. We had an analyst who used to brief President Trump, the night that Trump posted about this, who said, this is just going to open the floodgates for other countries to say they're also going to start this.
I wonder what you make of the timing, of this movie coming out, and this actually happening in the news cycle.
BIGELOW: It's actually so surreal. But, I mean, I'm obviously hopeful that this is a conversation toward denuclearization. But it's, you know, it's the elephant in the room. We don't -- we haven't addressed nuclear weapons for decades. And I grew up in the duck and cover era, where we had to hide under our desks. So, it's always been present to me.
COLLINS: Yes, and just given that, I mean, I think that's why it resonated with so many people watching it, was this was actually a fear that so many people had, growing up, and had to think about and consider, what would we do in this situation?
BIGELOW: Right.
COLLINS: It's not exactly reassuring, if you're watching the movie, of what exactly are our top leaders would be in the position of. Because, and this isn't a spoiler -- a lot -- it's basically showing that you're not in the perfect situation, when something like this happens. That the National Security Advisor is getting a colonoscopy, his deputy is making his way into the White House still, as this is coming down, and they do not have a lot of time to respond.
NOAH OPPENHEIM, SCREENWRITER, "A HOUSE OF DYNAMITE": That's true. I mean, the government has binders full of plans for what to do, in an event of an attack like this.
And yet, none of those plans can account for the chaos of ordinary life, and the fact that it's unlikely that the President is going to get to sit down with all his top advisers, around a nice wooden table, and look each other in the eye and take their time, in coming to some sort of consensus.
The reality is, they're going to be scattered. It could be 2 o'clock in the morning. Somebody could be not feeling well.
And one of the things we wanted to dramatize in the movie is the human factor. And we oftentimes push out of our mind, the existence of these weapons. They've been lurking in the background, since the dawn of the nuclear age. And the fact that it's again back in the news cycle is an important reminder, along with the film, that more of us need to get involved, in thinking about and talking about this threat.
COLLINS: And can we talk about how the movie was put together, in terms of, like, seeing STRATCOM in the way that we did was really fascinating to me as a White House reporter.
With the White House, I was familiar with the Briefing Room, obviously, and kind of the West Wing of how this looks, and the bunker and whatnot. But seeing STRATCOM was really something to me. Like, what did you do in preparation of trying to make this -- obviously, it's a movie, but also making it as realistic as possible.
BIGELOW: I think the key to this piece, and a piece like this, is to make it as realistic as possible. So, you're actually contemplating this problem, right in front of you, and it feels as authentic as we could possibly make it.
We visited the battle deck, and we spent some time there, and I was there with my production designer, and for not very long. But we were there, and so we replicated it, almost to like within an inch of its life. And same with the White House Situation Room. Very, very realistic.
COLLINS: Well, and so many people -- or so few people, I guess I should say, really, get to see what those look like in-person. Was there anything about it that surprised you, as you were hearing from officials about, you know, not similar scenarios, but breaking-news situations where they're making decisions with a tight timeline?
BIGELOW: I think -- I mean that, in and of itself, is so surprising, and the fact that the President has sole authority, like he's the -- it's not a consensus-based decision. It's his decision alone within, like, with two or three minutes left, in this situation. So, that was surprising to me, when we were doing research, and found that out. But it was a very -- those locations are just, they're kind of terrifying and very, very intimidating.
COLLINS: Yes.
OPPENHEIM: For some people, they're just the office they go to every day. I mean, that's the thing also. It's like they're somebody's workplace.
BIGELOW: Right.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Yes. And there was also such a human aspect to this, of these people who, what they were thinking of in these moments. Because yes, they're in the Situation Room, or, yes, they're on the STRATCOM battle deck. But they also have families and loved ones, that they're thinking of in these moments, in addition to the American population.
OPPENHEIM: Yes, of course -- and balancing that is -- and expecting anyone to remain focused on the problem at hand, knowing that their loved ones are in imminent danger, if God forbid something like this were to ever happen. It's just, you know, it's hard to imagine what we ask of these -- of these public servants.
COLLINS: So, I had an early look at the movie. I told my entire team to watch it. They all did, once it debuted on Netflix, and they all had thoughts when they came back to work on Monday, with the most talked about part being the ending, of wanting to know what happens at the end, and the real cliffhanger that the two of you left us with.
Did you go into this wanting that to be open-ended? Or how did you approach that?
BIGELOW: No, no, absolutely. That was from our first conversation, we wanted it to be like that.
And I think part of it is that, the fact that, I guess there's a desire to point a finger at who the enemy is, who launched this missile. But finally, at the end of the day, you have to realize that we are the enemy. We've created this incredible stockpile of weapons that are designed to annihilate this world that we live in. So, there's kind of a, like a paradox of safety. It's maybe there's no safety. I mean, no one wins a nuclear war.
COLLINS: And does it take the focus, somehow, off of who it is that has launched it, by putting more of the focus on, what does the United States do in this situation, and what we've kind of created for ourselves?
BIGELOW: In a perfect world? Yes. And then, is there a path forward to reduce the nuclear stockpile? I mean, that would be, where culture influences policy, in a perfect world.
COLLINS: Whenever you see what the Pentagon has said about this, I wonder what you make of the reaction that the film itself has generated from people who were there. I know you talked to a lot of people who've been in the Pentagon and in the national -- in the Situation Room, in the national security space. What do you make of what the Pentagon has said so far about this?
OPPENHEIM: First of all, I think we're thrilled that there is a conversation happening about these issues.
BIGELOW: At all.
OPPENHEIM: So, glad that they watched, glad that they've chosen to engage in the debate. As we've said, it's not a debate between us, as filmmakers, and the Pentagon. It's a debate between the Pentagon and the community of experts out there, over the efficacy of our missile defense system, and what's the best way to keep us all safe.
COLLINS: Noah Oppenheim. And Kathryn Bigelow. Thank you so much for being here.
BIGELOW: Thank you so much.
OPPENHEIM: Thank you.
COLLINS: Coming up. President Trump's White House makeover is still under way. What's changed since he got back into office, and what his plans are for other sites, here in Washington.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: They are taking down the entire East Wing in order to construct this ballroom.
I'm told by sources that the President has actually had two models of the projected ballroom in the Oval Office. He's quizzed guests on them, on which one they prefer, with one version being the original, and one being larger than what it was initially expected to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Within months of returning to the White House, President Trump ordered a massive makeover of what is known as the People's House. Crews have been working on the grounds, where the East Wing once stood, to construct his long-desired ballroom. It was originally touted as a renovation of the East Wing. It has since turned, though, into a full-on demolition project that has ballooned both in size and in cost.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Have you raised the full $300 million needed to fund your ballroom?
TRUMP: Yes.
REPORTER: And how much specifically are you donating to this construction project?
TRUMP: Actually we've raised, I think, $350 million. Now it's all -- all donor money, and.
In order to do it properly, we had to take down the existing structure.
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: There was a report that Melania didn't love this idea. Is that -- is that true?
TRUMP: Well, she loved her little, tiny office.
If you would ask her now, she says, it's great.
But the East Wing, that building was renovated 20 times, including adding a floor to the top, which was terrible. It was out of common brick, little tiny windows. It looked like hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, of course, the President has said donors are paying for this, not taxpayers.
This new ballroom, though, as you can see, is an ode to the President's signature style and his love for gold. The renderings show gold and crystal chandeliers, gilded ceilings, Corinthian columns, and gold floor lamps as well.
And it also comes as the Oval Office, just down the colonnade from where we were looking at a few moments ago, also has its own new embellishments, gold ones as well, including from the fireplace mantel to the fixtures that you can see on the walls, and even the paper weight block that is sitting on the President's desk.
At one point outside the Oval, there was a sign designated -- a space that was designating what it was, one of the most famous offices, in a gleaming yellow script. We haven't seen if they've actually made that permanent, though. But large flag poles have been made permanent. They've been planted on the White House grounds.
And also, of course, the legendary Rose Garden has been paved over to become more like the patio, similar to one that is at Mar-a-Lago, where the President has been hosting lawmakers and donors and political allies.
The President also introduced a Presidential Walk of Fame, outside the West Wing of the White House. He mocks his predecessor, Joe Biden. Because, as you can see, every other president has a black and white image, except Biden's is an image of an autopen, instead of his portrait.
While it is, anyone's guess what the next White House transformation project will be. The President has been looking to imprint his image elsewhere, here in Washington.
Last month, the President revealed plans to build a new arch near the Lincoln Memorial, reminiscent of France's Arc de Triomphe. And of course, the structure is expected to commemorate the nation's 250th anniversary in July next year. It is expected to be topped, unsurprisingly, by a figure in gold.
[22:00:00]
And before we go this holiday weekend, I want to let you know there's a lot more CNN to watch. That includes Anthony Bourdain's Prime Cuts. It's the special episodes that dig into the Parts Unknown archives, and it's got personal insights from Tony and rare behind-the-scenes interviews as well. Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown Prime Cuts is streaming right now, exclusively, on the CNN app.
Thanks so much for joining us.
The news continues right here on CNN.
